Harden And Gaudin To Cubs For Four Players (cont.)
by Nico on Jul 8, 2008 4:49 PM PDT
458 comments
Rich Harden and Chad Gaudin have been traded to the Chicago Cubs for pitcher Sean Gallagher, outfielder Matt Murton, and minor leaguers Eric Patterson and John Donaldson.
Seemed like a new thread might be in order, so I thought I’d offer one with a few stray thoughts (bullets not available for 5 days in California – but bullet points are!):
• The A’s are good both at scouting and at player development, so one can assume that in at least some of the players acquired, Oakland felt that regardless of good they look on the stat sheet now, the player can turn into something special under A’s coaching. Remember that Sean Gallagher will become “Sean Gallagher under Curt Young’s guidance,” Patterson’s physical talent will intersect with the A’s minor league instruction and organizational philosophies, and so on. It doesn’t matter how good these guys would have been with the Cubs – what matters is how good they can be with the A’s.
• The moment Harden goes down for the count (3-0 if Eveland is pitching, but that’s another thread), the trade will look good. Put me in the camp that believes the A’s expect to see that happen before the season ends.
• It’s clear that the A’s, just two games back of the Wild Card in the loss column, looked at their team and said, “There’s just no way,” because there is a real psychological cost to pulling the rug out from under a team that has competed against all odds. Perhaps Frank Thomas’ MRI report was unfavorable, or perhaps Beane knows in his heart that the team has overachieved, to this point, beyond what is sustainable for another 2.5 months.
• I have to agree with those who say “Where’s the one potential ‘impact bat’” because the opportunity, when you trade someone as talented as Harden, is to get what you so desperately need and can’t afford on the free agent market. If the A’s got that hitter, I don’t see him, so that’s disappointing.
What the heck, though – let’s just keep doing it with mirrors and confound the pundits, this year and beyond.
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First!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 8, 2008 4:53 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree with the Camden Chat policy on doing this
Viz., autoban.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Don't
You’ll see I’ve never done it on here, but to ban people for nonsensical posts would mean banning A LOT of people. Bottom line, if it’s not SPAM or abusive, no ban.
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no it's nonsense
it would be SPAM if he (or anyone else) put 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.
As it stands, it’s just an internet phenomenon (I forget the word that is often use) like “fail”, “pwn3d”, or even “lol”.
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
(ii) meme
and (i) think horizontally (across new threads) rather than vertically.
by green star oakland on Jul 8, 2008 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
CGV
At least let people know not to do it before banning.
by green star oakland on Jul 8, 2008 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you weren't so slow
then you could be first. Don’t be hating on santoswoodenlegs because he’s quick.
Might as well Jump! - Van Halen
by sprtsnwyn on Jul 8, 2008 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Someone *has* to hijack PT's account
and post “first” in every thread.
by green star oakland on Jul 8, 2008 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
First on new thread to say THIS SUCKS!
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 4:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
40 Man Roster
Gaudin and Harden are subtracted, but Murton, Gallagher, and Patterson are added. So what happens?
Does Emil Brown finally get DFAd? Does Thomas or Sweeney get moved to the 60-day DL for the time being? Or maybe even Joey Devine, who isn’t close to returning?
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 8, 2008 4:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sweeney was moved to the 60-day DL
"May a nit suck Cajun geese?" wonders Red. No, we see gnu Jack Cust in a yam.
by andeux on Jul 8, 2008 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point is
Here is the point: Murton clearly fell out of favor with the Cubs and Patterson wasn’t going to sniff the 25-man roster. So, those two should have been throw-ins at best.
Then, Gallagher is a solid player and you get a C prospect… C prospect are the worst type of prospects. They almost never make it to the majors… it is such a crap shoot.
So, as far as I am concerned, this is a horrible trade now, and 3 years from now. It is a gimmee. I don’t care how much of a risk Harden is; at some point, he is worth the lack of a return. Plus, the Cubs get at least a solid 5th SP / LRP in Gaudin. Horrible deal. And I like Gallagher somewhat.
At the same point in time, the Cubs were the ones that clearly wanted Harden for quite some time, so this must have been the best deal available… that sucks and that is why I think the A’s should have kept Harden anyway… unless his health really is that bad… sigh…
I confess that there are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise.
— Benjamin Franklin
by bjk15 on Jul 8, 2008 4:57 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Murton and Patterson
Murton and Patterson didn’t have a lot of value to the Cubs because of Kosuke Fukudome, Alfonso Soriano, and Derrek Lee. It’s not that Patterson and Murton aren’t good players, its that the Cubs have long term deals bottlenecking the positions these guys can play.
I think the risk to the Cubs of Harden getting injured is enormous in sight of what this trade looks like if he gets injured again.
Also, Gaudin is not likely to start in Chicago. There are six other guys above him on the depth chart as starters.
"At the end of the day, boys, you don't tell me how rough the water is, you bring in the ship." – Steve Stone
The Cubdom
by Pestilence on Jul 8, 2008 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that's my point
You even admit Murton and Patterson didn’t have value to the Cubs… so, why should the A’s value your trash?
6 guys, eh? Are you serious? Your trash ain’t that great. I’m guessing this is your 6:
Z
Lilly
Dempster
Marquis
Marshall
Lieber
Well, Lieber ain’t better. Marquis is approximately equivalent, but since he costs so much more, I would say no. Dempster is pitching out of his mind… this is his career year… it isn’t likely to last past this year and he isn’t under control like Gaudin.
But look, the point is, is that Gaudin could start and that is very valuable on every team…. pitching wins championships… not marginal major leaguers.
I confess that there are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise.
— Benjamin Franklin
by bjk15 on Jul 8, 2008 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'm going to be sick.
More average, at best, punchless hitters for this team.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
by KMoAsFan on Jul 8, 2008 4:57 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, it DOES matter how good they were with the Cubs...
... because unless one has some Kool-Aid induced belief that the A’s big-league and minor-league coaches are 100 times as good as the coaches in the Cubs system, the players acquired today are unlikely to substantially outperform the Cubs’ projection of them. Which means the A’s probably acquired zero future MLB regulars today.
MJB
by MJB on Jul 8, 2008 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's trade EVERYBODY
I don’t feel like playing anymore
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 4:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
For real.
Might as well unload Duke, Ellis, and Crosby.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
by KMoAsFan on Jul 8, 2008 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you might get what you wish for :(
The first rule of Oakland is - you do not talk about injuries. The second rule of Oakland is - you DO NOT talk about trainers." - Larry Davis
by norcalfan on Jul 8, 2008 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, time to be optimistic
How much have the A’s really lost here for this year?
Gaudin wasn’t being used in a useful role anyway, right? Yes, he’s good, but he wasn’t being utilized.
And Harden plays once every five days. He’s pretty freakin awesome when he plays, but how much worse than him will Gallagher be really?
And if Murton can be an upgrade over Brown – and really, how could he not – maybe this team isn’t any worse this year. In fact, they could be a smidge better that they would be in 2 weeks if Harden is DLd again.
This trade could mean more are coming, but I can still see them sticking around in contention well into September.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 8, 2008 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gallagher projects as below-average filler
In the Coliseum, that’s probably about 1.5 runs per 9 innings worse than Harden. About 15 runs.
Gaudin’s impact is hard to measure vis a vis the rest of the bullpen. Murton should be better than Emil Brown by maybe 5 runs in limited playing time. No idea whether Patterson is going to see any time or not.
I’m saying it’s a 15 run downgrade for the remainder of this season.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's Ghallagher's projection for just this season, yeah?
I’ve heard him to be a solid #3 when all’s said in done. Which doesn’t exactly make me want to take a cold shower, or anything, but certainly is better than below-average filler.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
by Joey C. on Jul 8, 2008 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was only talking about this season
I expect Gallagher to pitch like Cory Lidle—decent enough but nothing that anyone really cares about.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sean Gallagher is a good pitcher
He’s still young, and he’s underrated because he’s short, but I’d say a #3 starter is a good projection for him.
"At the end of the day, boys, you don't tell me how rough the water is, you bring in the ship." – Steve Stone
The Cubdom
by Pestilence on Jul 8, 2008 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say #3 starter is a bit of a stretch.
Procrastinators unite....tomorrow
by muffinpryde on Jul 8, 2008 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
especially considering who the A's have coming up
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
true, he’s still young at 22 and has a little MLB experience, so he’s got upside. I can see him as a decent #4
Procrastinators unite....tomorrow
by muffinpryde on Jul 8, 2008 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't.
I don’t see him being better then Cahill or Gonzales
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't either
but you never know…
Procrastinators unite....tomorrow
by muffinpryde on Jul 8, 2008 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
below-average?
What are you basing this “projection” on?
Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!
by Fooch on Jul 8, 2008 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno, his career 86 ERA+?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gaudin's numbers and sample size
Considering he’s appeared in 20 games and made 10 starts, I’d imagine that sample size isn’t something you can project for his whole career.
And everyone’s golden boy Chad Gaudin? His career ERA+ is 98 and it was 95 as a starter last year. As a starter this year (his FIRST as a starter at the MLB level) Gallagher’s ERA+ is 101. Not great by any stretch but certainly a starting point.
Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!
by Fooch on Jul 8, 2008 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again
Pitching with an excruciatingly painful broken bone in the foot does not, on average, improve a player’s performance.
He couldn’t sink his sinker all the second half of last season because he could barely stand to finish his arm motion.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we'll see
Not sure what to wager but I bet you Sean Gallagher has a better career as a starter than Chad Gaudin…
Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!
by Fooch on Jul 8, 2008 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take that bet...
I’m with PT on this one.
by Kallus on Jul 8, 2008 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
baseball reference comparisons
They have some Hall of Fame monitors where they determine a number and if it reaches a certain level you’re considered a Hall of Famer. I’ll get more details on it, but we could use something like that to compare them. Definitely think it’s something worth coming up with. If you guys want to email me, go to ninersnation.com, my email is at the bottom of the page.
Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!
by Fooch on Jul 8, 2008 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if gallagher wasn't a new A
i would take the bet. but i don’t bet against my team
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
by flipgatey3 on Jul 8, 2008 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
You’re over-exaggerating his injury a bit. I won’t deny that he had a broken bone or that it was painful or even hurting his effectiveness. But I don’t think it was excruciatingly painful and kept him from throwing his pitches. If that was the case then there is no way he could’ve pitched as long as he did. I’m in the camp that thinks that Gallagher is an upgrade now and in the future over Guadin.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Jul 8, 2008 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
could be worse
he could be “under-exaggerating”
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you being serious here?
That career ERA+ came in 73.3 innings, all by age 22. Would you have said that John Danks projects as below average filler, after 2007, based on his 86 ERA+ in 2007 at age 22?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jul 9, 2008 2:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's probably about right
and it’s not a huge downgrade. On the other hand, on the (small but still not negligible) chance that they did somehow get hot and steal a playoff spot, not having Harden would loom much larger. A team with Harden and Duchscherer starting more than half its games would always be a threat in a short playoff series, no matter how putrid its offense is.
"May a nit suck Cajun geese?" wonders Red. No, we see gnu Jack Cust in a yam.
by andeux on Jul 8, 2008 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
It’s probably a 5% win probability downgrade for a 5 game series, maybe more.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Healthy Harden
Assuming Harden stays healthy.
by Larry E on Jul 8, 2008 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Gaudin was a guy picked up off of waivers by the A’s last year.
Harden is a guy that hasn’t made 12 consecutive starts in 4+ years or so.
They have roughly 22 years of cost control :
1. Matt Murton service = 2.055
2. Gallagher service = 0.070
3. Patterson service = .012
4. Donaldon—minor leagues
Murton is an upgrade to Emil and cheaper.
Gallagher can pitch as well as Gaudin.
Patterson may be a replacement to Ellis (if he sticks at 2b, which I’m sure the A’s will try)
by echerrst on Jul 8, 2008 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bad basis
Basing a trade purely on upgrades that are debatable, is therefore not an upgrade. Secondly, picking a quality player off of waivers only shows that that GM is smarter than a lot of other GMs, especially the one cuting him. Control of players does count for a lot, but it isn’t everything when the return is so modest on a per/year basis. Plus, you assume that they are all going to contribute significantly every year while they are under control… bad assumption.
I confess that there are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise.
— Benjamin Franklin
by bjk15 on Jul 8, 2008 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
twisting this a bit
one could accept gaudin and gallagher as equivalents – guys who have spent time as starters, but not overwhelming results.
that leaves somewhere between 0 and 1.5 years of Harden (and between 0 and 1 compensation picks) for Murton, Patterson, and Donaldson.
obviously, if Murton becomes a plus outfielder locked up for multiple years, and 50% harden seems about the right bet, it’s not illogical. But emotionally, I would much rather have the chance of 1.5 years of a dominant Harden over many years of Murton and maybe Patterson. Certainly don’t want to see the A’s management complaining about attendance.
by ojoe on Jul 8, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beane is mitigating risk, and selling high
Harden’s made 26 starts since 2005.
With the A’s current pitching depth, Gaudin was expendable.
Next year’s rotation likely would have been :
Duke
Blanton
Dana
Smith
t.b.d.
t.b.d. could have been Harden (if not hurt), Chad, or someone from the system. Gio has to be added to the 40 man to protect him from the rule V draft this off season. Meyer and Braden probably will get one more luck. Simmons, Cahill, Anderson, etc could maybe have filled the 5 spot, but probably need a bit more time in the minors.
by echerrst on Jul 8, 2008 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
HA!
Selling high… um… no. What risk is there to mitigate? You admit Harden isn’t likely to play much past this point in the season, therefore, he has already passed his risk/reward level. So, I would argue that he is selling low and when the risk/reward level has already been met. I dunno…
I confess that there are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise.
— Benjamin Franklin
by bjk15 on Jul 8, 2008 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is Blanton
in there??? Isn’t he on the same trading block as Harden???
Beating LAA or wherever the fu*k they are, Priceless!
by MMunoz33 on Jul 8, 2008 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely
another trade coming….........probably Mark Ellis which id really gonna piss me off!
by mrod on Jul 8, 2008 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So goes Life as an A's fan.
Get used to it or forever be unhappy.
When will then be now? Soon.
by Syphon on Jul 8, 2008 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is ironic that the Cubs would go after a young, hard-throwing, injury-prone righty.
by Eggman on Jul 8, 2008 4:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
LOL
I confess that there are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise.
— Benjamin Franklin
by bjk15 on Jul 8, 2008 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep, and we got back as much as they did for Prior.
by theblackpearl on Jul 8, 2008 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know you're joking
... but as a Cubs fan, that’s not funny. The Prior thing ended in the worst possible way for us. Murton and Gallagher are good players that will be contributing for at least the next few years.
"At the end of the day, boys, you don't tell me how rough the water is, you bring in the ship." – Steve Stone
The Cubdom
by Pestilence on Jul 8, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ive got to be reading this wrong
i mean, ive got to be reading this wrong
im missing something?
im missing something.
{throws up}
by oakinboston on Jul 8, 2008 4:59 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Well, now we can finally start building our team around...
...Jack Cust! Bwa ha ha ha.
A's, baby!
by Coach Cleats on Jul 8, 2008 5:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If you can somehow fuse him together with Murton
we might have a complete outfielder who still hits like shit but might play marginally better defense
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
the good (?) news is, all but 4 or 5 of the A’s contracts expire at the end of the year.
question here is, do Chavez, Blanton, Street :( , go bye bye before the deadline too?
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 5:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
They are saving cap money for Lebron to reach free agency after 2009.
by theblackpearl on Jul 8, 2008 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Funny thing is...
I live in Jersey and of course the Nets (season ticket holder) and the A’s (wish I was a season ticket holder) are my favorite teams….week and a half ago the Nets trade their heart and soul, Richard Jefferson, and give up on the next 2 years….now the A’s give up on this season…terrible time for me as a sports fan…terrible
by mills16 on Jul 8, 2008 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Nets just got Brook Lopez and Ryan Anderson
They’re my new 2nd favorite NBA team.
Of course, that’s not saying much, cause I hate the NBA. But don’t sell them short.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm trying to imagine a life in which
I have so much free time that I pay attention to trades in a sport that I don’t even like.
Even when I was unemployed, I had plenty of better things to do.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Jul 8, 2008 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like college hoops
I just usually don’t care about them once they leave for the NBA…
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 9, 2008 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw that
that’s nuts, right? they could blow up the whole team after the season, right? or is that what’s going on here?
by NYC A's Fan on Jul 8, 2008 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's because most young players are on 1-year deals
The A’s have the rights to a lot more than 4 or 5 players long after 2008.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 8, 2008 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're correct
actually, they’ll probably dump or at least minor league contract a bunch of the kids. they’ll use the lack of large contracts as an excuse to not give the kids big contracts. then when the new stadium comes… more spending.
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
7 Million reasons to trade Harden
The A’s had a club option to pay $7million to Rich for 2009. If they declined the option, he walks….If they pay him, they probably feel for less than 200 innings of work and the risk of injury and the costly medical expenses…..not worth it…...
AZfan
by AZFan on Jul 8, 2008 5:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The co-pays alone were probably
putting the A’s near bankruptcy.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 8, 2008 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn that Kaiser health plan
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if that's true
The A’s had Harden’s rights through 2009. If they would have declined that option, he’s up for arbitration the way I understand the process. So really, they would only lose him next year if they told him to go away.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 8, 2008 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harden would not have been a type-a free agent
too few innings pitched. If he walked, the A’s would have gotten nothing.
by echerrst on Jul 8, 2008 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he pitches the rest of this year and next year
he damn well would be a type A free agent.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That could be seen as a big IF though
by A'sfaninNC on Jul 8, 2008 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The A's could really use a big IF right now
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
by Joey C. on Jul 8, 2008 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's trade Billy Beane
for a soccer player, a hot dog vendor, and an executive to be named later.
by FarkeyD on Jul 8, 2008 5:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe we'd finally get to a world series.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
by KMoAsFan on Jul 8, 2008 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok ok ok...
Replace the word “Harden” with “Embree” and we’re good to go.
by BWH on Jul 8, 2008 5:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
{checks to see if he read it wrong}
dont do that again. :(
by oakinboston on Jul 8, 2008 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's quite possible that we could just send them Embree
and they’d never notice.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 8, 2008 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Embree never gets hurt
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 8, 2008 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The big thing, and Nico touched on it
Is that there’s no future bat here. If you don’t think Gaudin’s great and you think Harden’s about to get hurt then fine, but if you’re not even bringing back one real hitting prospect then just what is the point?
If you’re going to do nothing with a trade of Harden (and Gaudin!) to address your biggest need (both for the present and future), why not just gamble on Harden’s health and see if you can get lucky this year? Because you still haven’t really made the team appreciably better for, say, 2009 or 2010.
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on Jul 8, 2008 5:02 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
It doesn’t do any good to trade away your star for guys that aren’t going to help in the future. These guys are still going to be average players in 2-3 years. We can look forward and be optimistic about future success all we want, but what position players do we have to even that may be close to putting us over the top in the future? Cargon and Sweeney?
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
by KMoAsFan on Jul 8, 2008 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Much as I wanted to see Harden traded...
... I agree with this assessment. Seriously, if you can’t get a true impact bat for your best asset, then what’s the point? I don’t think the A’s would have been in the playoffs this season even with Harden, but hell, unless this is some sort of precursor to a bigger deal (of which I am skeptical, since the biggest chip has already been moved), saddle up and go for it in 2008.
I mean, I’m glad we got a guy who Baseball America described as the next Jon Lieber and all, but that’s it?
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
by Joey C. on Jul 8, 2008 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps with the money saved on Harden's salary,
and given that the A’s are already in good payroll shape, they will be acquiring (through trade or FA) an expensive but impact bat – for example, we acquired yet another young pitcher so perhaps a pitching prospect will be traded as part of a deal to get that coveted hitter. Just musing about possibilities we wouldn’t know about yet.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 8, 2008 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is true
I reiterate what I said below that I feel like this is all part of something grander that we’ll see come to fruition in the near future.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
by Joey C. on Jul 8, 2008 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
pleasebemannypleasebemannypleasebemannypleasebemannypleasebemannypleasebemanny
... arousing men to burst the chains under which monkeyish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves ... @('.')@
by monkeyball on Jul 8, 2008 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm on record ...
I loved the Haren deal, I loved the Swisher deal. I was sad to see those guys go, but when I looked at what we got back, I said, “I get it - fair trade - great value.”
This one completely baffles me … the only thing I can think is Beane knows Harden’s hurt. And Hendry said “wait a minute—why are you giving us Harden so cheap? We want Gaudin as insurance.”
Otherwise, I’m completely shocked. Right now, I feel like this deal isn’t even close. Advantage Cubs. BIG time.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
by Vacafan on Jul 8, 2008 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cust, Crosby, Devine
for Manny?
Then sign Bonds?
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagines such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 8, 2008 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Manny has to decide where Manny wants to go
And Paul doesn’t think Manny wants to go to Oakland.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boston thinks
if Fremont builds a Green Monster for Manny to hang out in between innings, Manny would like Fremont
by oakinboston on Jul 8, 2008 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's no urinal in oakland's outfield
Green Hulk Fists
by oaklandSMASH on Jul 9, 2008 3:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this seems possible
Shades of 1999 when the A’s got rid of one guy (was it Kenny Rogers?) and appeared to be sellers, but then traded for a couple of other guys (Omar Olivares? Randy Velarde?) and appeared to be buyers. Also, Beane has repeatedly say he’d deal to improve the team for right now if it looked like the A’s might be in the race; and certainly he likes to zig when people expect him to zag …
Brainless Automaton #439
by rubin sierra on Jul 8, 2008 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And why the Cubs?
Why wouldn’t Beane trade Harden to SP-starved team like the Phillies? I know their farm system isn’t great either, but I would rather have a Lou Marson than a Josh Donaldson… and a Joe Savery and Jayson Werth at least.
I confess that there are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise.
— Benjamin Franklin
by bjk15 on Jul 8, 2008 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One word
Sabathia
I miss Eric Plunk
by chuckcheeze on Jul 8, 2008 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Donald
their SS prospect was having a breakout type year in AA and is blocked by Rollings. Cardenas was also blocked. I was really hoping he would go to Philly.
Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom
by designatedforassignment on Jul 8, 2008 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think people are drastically overestimating Harden's value
Why would a team give up an impact bat for someone who’s next pitch could be his last? Harden is at about his 90% PECOTA projection this year.
What bat could the A’s have received for Harden?
by echerrst on Jul 8, 2008 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about just a bat?
Any model, maple or ash, 32 oz.
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
PECOTA ain't everything
That’s why they play games, man. I like the projection systems as much as the next, but hey, they are just projection systems.
I confess that there are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise.
— Benjamin Franklin
by bjk15 on Jul 8, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vitters, Pie?
And if you don’t like them, you find a different trade partner. And if nobody’s willing to even meet that price, then my point stands- why bother?
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on Jul 8, 2008 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, why would the cubs, or any team, trade top prospects for -
Harden who has made a living on the bench for the last 4 years and Gaudin who is still unproven and decidedly average?
So, given that, Billy got what he could get, which would have been a fuck of a lot less whenever Harden hits the DL again.
I for one, am glad to see Harden gone. He wasn’t going to be part of the A’s future anyway. I wish him luck and I’m happy for Gaudin and the opportunity he will get in Chicago. And I don’t see how we are much worse off this year.
Again, I wasn’t counting on Rich Harden and it would be foolish for Billy to make that mistake any longer.
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagines such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 8, 2008 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
See above
(or was it the other thread) for my analysis of production for this season. I rate it as a 1-2 win downgrade.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand your math
and I can’t quibble, but there is an assumption that you have to make about Harden’s health that is a bit of a reach, IMHO
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagines such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 8, 2008 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he is not unproven
he proved what he could do in the first half last year. then he hurt his hip and foot and pitched through it.
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
by flipgatey3 on Jul 8, 2008 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Half a season is unproven
when I was seven I had a shoe box full of cards with good half seasons.
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagines such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 8, 2008 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on guys
Mark Ellis will still be around.
All Games and Comments are Subject to Blackout
by Hit4TheCycle on Jul 8, 2008 5:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
don't even think it.
he’s coming back – he’s just gotta!
by NYC A's Fan on Jul 8, 2008 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even though I know that anyone on this team can be gone at any given moment for a handful of guys I’ve never heard of, it still stings when they actually leave.
by drmmerchk on Jul 8, 2008 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 on the first bullet point
Sure on the surface they don’t seem like much now. But, like all trades, I’m willing to give them time. I think the Cubs got the better part of the deal now, but now is not when trades are ultimately decided anyway—so that’s moot in my opinion.
Right now, the A’s didn’t get much. I don’t mind Murton or Patterson or Gallagher—but I think the A’s should’ve gotten more. But we’ll see how much the A’s really got next year and 2010.
I want an A's-Rays ALCS.
by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Jul 8, 2008 5:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Understand the trade. Am over it. But I still wanted Vitters.
I think Sean Gallagher will be better than most people think. He had great numbers in the minors and he was very young for every level he played at. Murton is a solid bat with a bit of upside since he never got a fair shake in the majors and Patterson could be a nice utility player since he seems to have the speed of Rajai Davis, the versatility of Chone Figgins and a little bit of power and patience to boot. Certainly an improvement over Hannahan/Murphy at this point. Donaldson had nice numbers last season and in college and might just be in a funk this season.
All of that is fine and dandy and would a pretty good haul for Harden alone. But with Gaudin thrown in I thought that the A’s would for sure net Vitters. He would have been the perfect “headlinder” of this trade. He’s a righty, projectable power bat that plays 3rd base and his brother is already in the A’s organization! Would have been a perfect fit! But probably too perfect and it’s a decent return on formerly damaged good.
by Taj Adib on Jul 8, 2008 5:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The A's improved on the margins only
Not really what I think we were all hoping for from a Harden trade.
I can’t shake the feeling that part of the deal was Hendry doing a solid for Beane later on… maybe Vitters for some joker once he becomes tradeable. Please, God, let that be true.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
by Joey C. on Jul 8, 2008 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I thought about Loaiza
Of course, for all we know maybe the A’s were supposed to get something for Loaiza and then Beane threw Colletti a bone when he singlehandedly torpedoed the Dodgers playoff hopes.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we weren't on the hook for his salary
Sorry ass Loaiza
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagines such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 8, 2008 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Patterson
Is it versatility if a guy is terrible at those positions? Patterson might be able to stand in the outfield with a glove, but he really can’t even play a corner spot competently. He’s about as much of a LF as Marco Scutaro was.
It looks to me like Patterson is going to be the stopgap between Ellis and Weeks. Or maybe he’s just a backup plan, he stays at Sacramento for the rest of this year and if Ellis is extended he’s moved in the offseason. I kinda hope that’s it, because I just don’t think he can play at the major league level.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 8, 2008 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well we'll have the best AAA team in the country.
Go Rivercats!
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's the next Jason Tyner
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Tyner hit like 1 pro homer ever.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 8, 2008 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I just meant a DH whose only value was speed and batting average
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
do you understand the trade?
because I just got over my initial, emotional, shock stage, and now I am trying to make sense of it.
was our Harden really at such a low value?
or perhaps these guys we’re getting better than what Im seeing on paper?
BB earned my trust a long time ago. Im taking the approach: there’s something Im not understand correctly, as opposed to: he’s an idiot.
by oakinboston on Jul 8, 2008 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn't really have patience
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on Jul 8, 2008 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
or power
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on Jul 8, 2008 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who, Vitters?
You can’t use his minor league numbers, the guy’s been hurt since he was drafted. It wasn’t a coincidence that he was the #3 overall pick.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, Patterson
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on Jul 8, 2008 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's no Cust, but he's not his hacktastic brother either.
For his minor league career, he’s walked in over 10% of his plate appearances and his career OBP, while buoyed up by high batting averages, is pretty solid (.366). And for a middle infielder, he DOES have a little bit of power. He’s averaged over 10 homers per season over his career.
Look, I’m not saying he’s a great pickup. I’m looking at what he does well and where he might fit in with the organization. He might just be a decent utility guy.
by Taj Adib on Jul 8, 2008 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Eric's AN nickname should be "he's not Corey!"
He’s a much better hitter than his brother. Nothing special unless he can really play second, but he has real pop and isn’t a hacker.
So it goes.
by jeepers on Jul 8, 2008 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like a Kinsler-Cano type
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 8, 2008 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Josh Vitters' nickname could have been "He's not Christian"
As an added bonus, he would have become my favorite player.
[I kid, I kid.]
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
geez
someone’s gonna love that one
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
by flipgatey3 on Jul 8, 2008 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ehh, I think people
are being to harsh on “he’s not Corey”.
His OPS and OBP in the minors have been above league average for his entire minor league career, in every season, at every level, except for one 37 PA stint in AA in 2005. Granted, his homeparks have been hitter’s parks.
The issue really is his D. Can he play adequate, MLB average D at either 2nd or CF? If he can, then he can be a league average 2b / CF. If not, if he is forced to a corner, then, he’s bench filler.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jul 9, 2008 2:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Conspiracy Theory.
Maybe Selig wrote the A’s a huge check to give Harden over to the Cubs.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
by KMoAsFan on Jul 8, 2008 5:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It can't be Rich
he’s been mentioned all the time…it was Gaudin who came as a surprise, and it must be Gaudin doing something behind our backs!!!
Procrastinators unite....tomorrow
by muffinpryde on Jul 8, 2008 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Bud Selig who used to own the Brewers?
"May a nit suck Cajun geese?" wonders Red. No, we see gnu Jack Cust in a yam.
by andeux on Jul 8, 2008 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So it's final there's no PTBNL?
Which means no Vitters. I still want that LaPorta-type on this deal because the Sabathia deal is far better and we’re giving up more than Cleveland IMO. If we had replaced Donaldson with Vitters or added Rich Hill I’d feel much better about this trade. As it stands, I’m just gonna pretend the deal was a soon to be injured Harden and Dustin Majewski.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Jul 8, 2008 5:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Mark my words....
Gaudin will be the best player of this trade in three years. He will end up being Chi-towns 4th starter and we really got f*cked this time around .
This reminds me of the Tim Hudson trade. Beane doesn’t care about baseball anymore just socces because he is dumb for letting GAUDIN go into this as a throw in…
Beating LAA or wherever the fu*k they are, Priceless!
by MMunoz33 on Jul 8, 2008 5:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i think he's going to be pretty solid in the NL
like a Lilly, but better
by oakinboston on Jul 8, 2008 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will mark those words...;
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on Jul 8, 2008 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gaudin will be the second best player in the deal
The best player in the year will be Rich Harden.
by solotar on Jul 8, 2008 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've got to go make this trade happen on MLB 2K8
And feel like crap all over again.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
by Joey C. on Jul 8, 2008 5:14 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
That's the funniest post I've read all day
I needed that
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I already Made the trade, but to Huston
But got H.Pence and two prospect pitchers. Much better deal IMHO
The first rule of Oakland is - you do not talk about injuries. The second rule of Oakland is - you DO NOT talk about trainers." - Larry Davis
by norcalfan on Jul 8, 2008 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Street owns a team?
Hm, flexing his newfound entrepreneurial muscle, is he?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 8:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im now on board with this trade.
I like it. Now I dont have to worry about Harden’s health anymore. I welcome Gallagher with open arms. Hello Matt Murton! Back to DH with you Cust. And bye bye Emil Brown.
When will then be now? Soon.
by Syphon on Jul 8, 2008 5:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You'll like Murton and Gallagher.
I think you’ll find that EPat is a lot of fun too.
These are the saddest of possible words: "Tinker to Evers to Chance"
by slcathena on Jul 9, 2008 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
dave cameron likes it for the A's....
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on Jul 8, 2008 5:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not up on all the writers but who is Dave Cameron?
by A'sfaninNC on Jul 8, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mariners blogger, used to work for baseball prospectus
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on Jul 8, 2008 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
does he have reasoning that you can enlighten us with?
by oakinboston on Jul 8, 2008 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it is rather thin
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2008/7/8/567382/rich-harden-cubs#7251009
Does not address “better deal” opportunity cost, which I think the predominant source of consternation.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on Jul 8, 2008 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so, as far as I can tell, it boils down to:
how long will Harden stay healthy?
by oakinboston on Jul 8, 2008 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dave Cameron is a depressed Mariners fan
I mean, compared to Soriano-for-Ramirez or the Bedard trade, this IS a good trade. The A’s didn’t actually actively screw their franchise, they just gave away some short-term talent.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully Gallagher will smash the opposition
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on Jul 8, 2008 5:20 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I saw him at Cobb's Comedy Club
last year. Still alive and bitter.
Nature's first green is gold...
by prana160 on Jul 8, 2008 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Newbies...
Baseball Prospectus says we got their 5th, 6th, and 8th best prospects.http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7055
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
by brenarlo on Jul 8, 2008 5:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
that speaks volumes about their farm system
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
seriously
Jeff Samardzija is in their top 11 according to BP.
Oh, and BA says only 5th and 7th and they have Samardzija as 8.
I confess that there are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise.
— Benjamin Franklin
by bjk15 on Jul 8, 2008 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is a joke...
The A’s are right in the race, both the wild card and the west, and with 6 more games against the AL west why trade them right now. Why not wait and see where we are at the break. Also, you give gaudan who is only 24 and a great guy out of the bullpen or in the rotation.
And wedidnt even get anyone worthwhile except for maybe gallagher. We got a single a catcher hitting .217, what’s the point of that?
Why dont we just try to get one potential all-star bat like the indians got in Laporta. All this trade does is help get the Rivercats back to the AAA world series.
by diehardoaklandfan22 on Jul 8, 2008 5:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If you miss Gaudin blame Ziggy
Ziggy doing what he has and able to pitch multiple innings and made less of a need to keep gaudin.
Harden will be on the D.L. soon, the cubs know there is a good chance of this, so they demanded Gaudin be in the deal also.
It was a fair trade both ways because of the injury risk. Just because we didn’t rip off the other team this time, does not make it a horrible trade.
by Athletix Man on Jul 8, 2008 5:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why??
Didn;t we ask for Felix Pie???
Beating LAA or wherever the fu*k they are, Priceless!
by MMunoz33 on Jul 8, 2008 5:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That's what I'm saying
This trade looks like the Hudson trade.
by What Would Rickey Do on Jul 8, 2008 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
because he sucks
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
by flipgatey3 on Jul 8, 2008 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Horrible Trade: A's Give Up
I can understand Gaudin for 3 stiffs, but why throw Harden in for free? In return for Harden and Gaudin could the A’s have really not gotten a reliable .275 hitter? You would think the Yankees would have killed for Gaudin alone, given the state of their middle relief. Couldn’t we have traded them for, I don’t know, Milton Bradley and Andre Ethier? This trade sucks.
by solotar on Jul 8, 2008 5:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
doesn't murton count?
he has a career avreage of .294
by totoum on Jul 8, 2008 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
does that count here?
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
by davidalanu on Jul 8, 2008 5:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Best Wishes to Rich
I will really miss the guy. Such a brilliant, brilliant talent. I’m glad I’ve got his last few starts still on my DVR, including that Philly game.
I understand why Billy did it, but it breaks my heart.
Good luck, Rich. Thanks for the amazing memories.
by SportySpice on Jul 8, 2008 5:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
from LL
via Churchill: I emailed an A’s scout who was very involved in the Harden talks with STL and Chicago, and he said the Cards were willing to trade Rasmus in a deal for Harden, but wanted Ryan Sweeney coming back with Harden.by JI on Jul 8, 2008 8:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions 0 recs
If Harden stays relatively healthy
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on Jul 8, 2008 5:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow, if that's true...
The A’s really love Sweeney.
I’m a little skeptical, though, since the Cards have a plenty impressive outfield as it is…
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
by Joey C. on Jul 8, 2008 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh?
Ankiel is already reaching the point of athletic decline (although his numbers probably won’t peak for a bit because he’s so inexperienced). Ludwick is a flash in the pan—no way is he this good long term. Schumacher is not very good, period.
I totally understand why they would want Sweeney. I wouldn’t do Harden and Sweeney for just Rasmus, but I’d do it for the rumored Rasmus/Anderson/+1 package.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cards must've vetoed that
b/c I see BB going for that deal too, PT.
Fortunately, this is his age-28 year: his killing productivity is likely to decline. Impressive range, though. -Monkeyball
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 8, 2008 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
Refreshing my memory on Ludwick and Schumacher, their projections pre-2008 season sounded a lot like Sweeney’s, minus the ever-present hope that Sweeney will one day develop legitimate power. And this season, they’re kiiiiiiinda outhitting him. Obviously, you have to like the fact that Sweeney is 5-6 years younger than them.
I ain’t arguing that the A’s made the wrong choice if that offer was on the table, I’m just happy to see that they pretty clearly have faith in Sweeney for the future.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
by Joey C. on Jul 8, 2008 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ludwick and Schumacher are like 30
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way
That is the most ridiculous rumor, especially in this day and age where talent and youth are so valued. He is a borderline top 10 MLB prospect. Do you really think that the Cards wouldn’t push Ankiel over to corner and bench Ludwick or Duncan? Yeah, I didn’t think so.
I confess that there are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise.
— Benjamin Franklin
by bjk15 on Jul 8, 2008 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
colvin is no good
so i’m cool on that
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
by flipgatey3 on Jul 8, 2008 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You've all gotta relax
After Harden fails the Cubs physical, we’ll have right back on our DL, just like old times.
by ozzman99 on Jul 8, 2008 5:30 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Here's to hoping he fails the physical then
we need a mulligan on this one
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes but if he failed then no one else would want him
HELMET: Sandurz, what's going on?
SANDURZ: It's Mega Maid. She's gone from suck to
blow!
by SoCalA'sFan on Jul 8, 2008 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
really
as an A’s fan, I would still want him. Shoot, he could be the next Kerry Wood at worst. That is damn valuable.
I confess that there are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise.
— Benjamin Franklin
by bjk15 on Jul 8, 2008 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I’d rather let Rich rot on the shelf then trade him for this pile of rubbish
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like most of you
I’m not a big fan of this trade, for many of the reasons others have stated. I don’t mind dealing Harden, but I don’t think Beane was in a position of having to take what he could get. It’s not like the McGwire deal. If Harden is healthy, waiting till closer to the deadline would only have driven his value up. On the other hand, the drop in velocity in his last start may have been a warning that trouble is coming. Still, I would rather have seen one above average hitter and one above average pitcher (a fair return, I think, for Harden and Gaudin). I think Murton can be good, but at his age, how long will we have him? Gallagher might be comparable to Gaudin, probably not much better. Paterson seems superfluous. Now that catcher (I forgot his name), I have high hopes for him, but he isn’t hitting much this year.
by ozzman99 on Jul 8, 2008 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cubs Fan's Take
Hey guys, I figure some of you are wondering about the particulars of this trade from the Cubs’ perspective. I’ve been following the Cubs’ minor league system for a number of years, done some statistical analysis on these guys, and attended my share of games. Here are some of my thoughts on the Cubs’ players…
Matt Murton – Solid, but unspectacular. He doesn’t hit for a whole lot of power, but he has a good eye at the plate and surprising speed and intelligence on the basepaths. You can expect a lot of IF singles out of him since one of his specialties appears to be hitting the ball in the exact wrong spot for fielders to get. He doesn’t have the arm for RF or the range for CF.
Eric Patterson – Good bat, bad defense. The Cubs have tried him at 2B and in the OF, although it looks like he’ll stick at 2B. His defense at 2B is not that good. It looks like he has mental errors more than anything else, since he had good range and a decent enough arm. As a hitter, he’ll be good. Think Todd Walker with a bit more power and a few more Ks. He can be a decent every day starter.
Sean Gallagher – He’s the guy I’ll miss the most. He really came along in the minor leagues and has always been underrated as a prospect. He started out 82-90, but has managed to get his FB up into the mid-90s when he reaches back. He mostly works 90-92. Very good curveball, surprisingly good slider, decent changeup. Great head on his shoulders. Intense and competitive. Potential #2 down the road if he gains consistency. His mechanics are really sound, too.
Josh Donaldson – Diamond in the rough. His numbers last year were really good in short season ball, but he’s had some really rough luck in Low A. His BABIP has been atrocious, although his LD% is down for some reason this year. He converted from 3B to C at Auburn and has made the transition very well. Watching him, his defense is surprisingly solid and he has a good arm, although I think he needs to work on his footwork and getting out of his crouch on throws. He has good power potential down the road, could be a 15-20 HR guy. I like his patience at the plate. He’ll stick at catcher, but it’s just a question of whether he’ll ever get his bat back on track.
If there’s anything specific you want to know about those guys, feel free to ask. I rather like this blog and lurk often.
by Outshined_One on Jul 8, 2008 5:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
thank you for your analysis
HELMET: Sandurz, what's going on?
SANDURZ: It's Mega Maid. She's gone from suck to
blow!
by SoCalA'sFan on Jul 8, 2008 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wonder if the A's will convert Josh back to 3rd.
by Athletix Man on Jul 8, 2008 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
re:
I think he could pull the switch off since he’s a good athlete and has the arm for it, but he’s looked good enough at catcher the times I’ve seen him that I think he can stick at C. Frankly, it’d do wonders for his value down the road.
by Outshined_One on Jul 8, 2008 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a failed physical would be definitelybe the best case scenerio
harden did complain about a tired arm after his last start
by diehardoaklandfan22 on Jul 8, 2008 5:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
the thing is...
if he failed the physical, then it would be a good trade for the A’s.
best case is that he passes the physical, THEN his arm falls off
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
GOOD NEWS
BB has now established Embree’s trade value:
3 tic tacks and a 1/2 empty diet pepsi!
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 5:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
recycling value
After your finish the diet pepsi there is still a 5 cent recycling value isn’t there? So would it be embree and cash (5 cents) for 3 tic tacs and a half empty diet pepsi?
Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!
by Fooch on Jul 8, 2008 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
CRV is paid in advance
it’s like a signing bonus.
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
3 CRVs and you're banned, right?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 8, 2008 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That Diet Pepsi is half-full, you pessimist.
by ozzman99 on Jul 8, 2008 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Appropriate Analogy
On June 28, 1979 the Pirates received Bill Madlock, Lenny Randle and Dave Roberts from the Giants for Fred Breining, Al Holland and Ed Whitson.
At the time, Giants fans were furious at the trade they mocked as “Whitson for Randle and Roberts, with Madlock throw in.” The trade looked to be a complete disaster for the Giants. Only after the season was over, of course, with the Pirates as World Series Champions and the Giants sorely missing a third baseman who could hit, was it clear that the trade was, uh, Whitson for Randle and Roberts, with Madlock throw in.
This is Gaudin for Gallagher and Patterson … with Harden thrown in.
by solotar on Jul 8, 2008 5:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Next Year's OF
Clearly Sweeney and C-Gon are penciled in. Cust should be moved to DH (which eliminates the need to keep Rajai on the team). Presumably Murton gets the last spot? I thought Cunningham was going to get a shot.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 5:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re right. Murton will be the LF, and I think sooner than later.
by jefeboy on Jul 8, 2008 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would like to see Murton in LF immediately
With a swift DFA of Brown
HELMET: Sandurz, what's going on?
SANDURZ: It's Mega Maid. She's gone from suck to
blow!
by SoCalA'sFan on Jul 8, 2008 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess my point
was what happens with Cunningham? Not that I don’t like having 4 guys to fill 3 spots, when they are all young and unproven, but if we are blowing up this year’s team, didn’t seem like OF was really a concern for next year’s. Are we planning on parking AC in Sacto next year?
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well AC is still only 22 and in AA
So i could see him spending a full season at AAA next year.
by totoum on Jul 8, 2008 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Travis Buck?
Is he suddenly a 1 year wonder????
by mrod on Jul 8, 2008 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea, im wondering too
seems like he isnt coming up any time soon and would be nothing more than a backup next year….
by chipper1001 on Jul 8, 2008 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
cust
i am so tired of him. all he does is strikeout and walk, with mostly strikeouts. he cant play the outfield and the a’s have plenty of 1B/DH types. he is the bigget rally killer in the majors.
by diehardoaklandfan22 on Jul 8, 2008 5:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What kind of a message does this send to the players we have left
The poor bastards have battled above .500 with so many injuries and now they see two of their teammates traded.
They are young for the most part so they could keep playing just as hard or they could say, “Fuck it, management just gave up so why don’t we”
Interesting to see what transpires
by Trainman on Jul 8, 2008 5:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
it says:
we are building for your future.
by oakinboston on Jul 8, 2008 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And it says to the players left
Thanks for wasting your time out there, go out and get drunk after each game.
by Trainman on Jul 8, 2008 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
most of the players we now have are going to be around a long time.
im sure they can appreciate that the front office cares about their team’s future.
as we all should.
... are you being serious?
by oakinboston on Jul 8, 2008 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not at all...
players have instntive to always play well. Theres always other teams watching.
When will then be now? Soon.
by Syphon on Jul 8, 2008 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They can say that.
The few fans left can be saying it too.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
by KMoAsFan on Jul 8, 2008 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they say that
they should not be major league baseball players.
I’d cheerfully cut anyone from my team who had that attitude.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It also may spur the young players to say
“Why are they giving up when we are above .500, Lets show them we can still win”
That is what they should be saying actually.
by Trainman on Jul 8, 2008 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank God your not the manager!
this isn’t sending a message of unity, at least not right away. What it’s saying is….play up to your potential or above and we will dish your ass to a team in contention regardless of our situation. It may not be the case, but as a fragil ego driven professional athlete it doesn’t really lend itself to “be part of somthing special..” today. Maybe in a year or two, but not today.
The first rule of Oakland is - you do not talk about injuries. The second rule of Oakland is - you DO NOT talk about trainers." - Larry Davis
by norcalfan on Jul 8, 2008 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, cause the A's totally just traded Kurt Suzuki and Greg Smith
Wait, no. They traded Rich Harden and Chad Gaudin.
They’re trading guys with lots (by relative standards) of service time, not overachievers. Shit, Gaudin was underachieving this year (granted not helped by the playing time he got) and Harden was pretty much doing what Peter Gammons has been predicting he’d do for the last four seasons.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know we are not talking about Cy Young pitchers here,
but they were service time leaders, and Harden especially was one of our top players.
The first rule of Oakland is - you do not talk about injuries. The second rule of Oakland is - you DO NOT talk about trainers." - Larry Davis
by norcalfan on Jul 10, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this was the same kind of thing
that a lot of us said after the haren and swisher trades…the thing is, unless a team is actually gonna be bad (which the a’s will not) the attitudes will be just fine within the clubhouse and on the field. they are pro ball players and know how the a’s work. they can be surprised at the trade but i doubt anything will linger
by chipper1001 on Jul 8, 2008 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In Billy we trust but I don't know about this one
This seems one sided in favor of the Cubs. Harden is lights out when healthy, and a number one guy. Gaudin will be their # 4 starter. The A’s got very little.
This also means that Billy has thrown in the towel on this season. A sad day to be an A’s fan.
by hokecole on Jul 8, 2008 5:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It should be
In Billy, we have no choice but to trust for better or worse
by Trainman on Jul 8, 2008 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
He’s treated us pretty goddamn well.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
by Joey C. on Jul 8, 2008 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey Blez
Congratulations for scoring the interview with Billy that you’re about to score; he will no doubt be mounting a PR offensive (defensive?) in the coming days to explain this trade as he did in the wake of Hudson/Mulder.
Brainless Automaton #439
by rubin sierra on Jul 8, 2008 5:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
off to the game (sigh)
wearing my Harden tshirt, continuing the mourning process… we better win, especially since I’ll be with M’s fans, and that might mollify me for a few minutes anyway.
by whiteshoes40 on Jul 8, 2008 5:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Harden's first start for the Cubs scheduled for this weekend
against the Giants :-)
by green star oakland on Jul 8, 2008 5:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
We'll do our best to win that for you.
Curious, how’s Harden pitched v. the Giants?
These are the saddest of possible words: "Tinker to Evers to Chance"
by slcathena on Jul 9, 2008 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"The A’s are good both at scouting and at player development"...
Good at scouting pitchers? Sure, assisted by some extra foul ball territory.
Good at scouting hitters? I’m still unclear where Billy Beane the talent evaluator hangs his hat. Daric Barton? Crosby? Chavez? Sweeney, etc? Charles Thomas-Denorfia-Sweeney-Kielty or whatever our outfielder’s name is? Are you kidding me?
I’m done rooting for a team that aspires to nothing more than replacement level talent.
I’m done familiarizing myself with every 4th OF in baseball on the chance he’s the next A target.
As if the 9 straight elimination game losses weren’t enough. And the trading away of our guys—understandable, but painful.
This is sheer lunacy, pure and simple. Somewhere, Matt Kemp and James Loney are wondering what they did wrong.
by WhereisGilHeredia on Jul 8, 2008 5:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Beating LAA or wherever the fu*k they are, Priceless!
by MMunoz33 on Jul 8, 2008 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 +1
Seriously, Colleti and the Dodgers have seemed to be trying to trade Kemp for a year… why not help him? Kemp and a laser-eye repaired Chin-Lung Hu… and maybe James McDonald would be a tremendously better return than what the Cubs gave us. Shoot, maybe Joe Torre trusts a Keith Foulke or somebody for someone he doesn’t…
I confess that there are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise.
— Benjamin Franklin
by bjk15 on Jul 8, 2008 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't fret
you’ll be a fan again when they pull off the miracle wild card spot.
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
your post makes me sad.
i’ll just hang around till the A’s get good again and you come back
by oakinboston on Jul 8, 2008 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
exactly
doesn’t deserve to be a fan.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hello, ElephantsinOakland
How’s tricks?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
Fortunately, this is his age-28 year: his killing productivity is likely to decline. Impressive range, though. -Monkeyball
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 8, 2008 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's how it's gonna go down...
Murton channels his inner-Carlos Quentin (although Murton’s 2 years older, and had a minor league OPS 100 points lower than CQ), Gallagher channels his inner-Dan Haren (which actually doesn’t look like a terrible comp, at this respective points in their career, though Gallagher’s a bit walkier) and Patterson gets a chance to be no worse than Bobby Crosby, while the jury remains out on Donaldson, who’s a ways away anyway. Donaldson did have more walks than K’s in 2007, in his pro debut, though he fell off a table this year, apparently. Is he hurt, or are we chalking it up to SSS?
At the very least, I’m glad we saved Matt Murton’s career. Or at least gave him a shot to save his own career.
Next up, Andy LaRoche.
by BWH on Jul 8, 2008 5:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
When Crosby Goes...
Who will we depend on to bring even SOME semblance of hot chicks to the games?
I mean it’s been slim pickings (or maybe “heavy” is more accurate) the last few years. Once Swisher went bye, so did 8 of the remaining 10.
- This unscientific, sexist remark brought to you by Coberloco*
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 5:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
They need to post that pic of Ryan Sweeney sliding into second base
but I don’t think they can cause it’s from when he was a White Sock.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought we had a young strapping team, what happened to Buck, Cargon, Swooney?
by asfansince1989 on Jul 8, 2008 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We do have a young strapping team.
But they’re fine young men who don’t want to be surrounded by skanky hos. That’s what Cober is complaining about.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Jul 8, 2008 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beane is credited as being "shrewd" and "brilliant" and the "Best GM" in baseball
and we’ve heard all the superlatives BUT because of all the accolades I think he might actually believe the hype. He’s not infalliable but he seems to act like he is.
85% (as of latest poll) of AN’ers hate this trade. And that includes all the stat-heads and sabertricians and regular Joe’s just like me. Are we ALL that stupid and BB somehow is more brilliant then the collective whole of AN?
Sorry, but “In Billy We Trust” won’t cut it with me anymore.
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 6:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
while this discredits my own poll a bit
those numbers are probably a little skewed due to “initial shock” reactions.
still, I see your point. see: Charles Thomas
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of corse they hate it. It JUST HAPPENED
That is going to be the reaction to the trade. The only way it would of been the other way is if the A’s got 2/3 of the Cubs roster. But what happens if the A’s ralley around one another and go on a winning streak and wind up in the race towards the end of this season. Then what? Also since we are playing the what if game, just supose that the new guys can accutally play baseball worth a damn and HELP the A’s win a couple of games. And one final point Harden gave a chance to win one game every 5 days, these news guys get soem playing time every day or so then guess what they have helped the A’s win more games in a span of 5 days then one pitcher did.
by A'sfaninNC on Jul 8, 2008 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beane has watched video, the scouts have seen them live
and he knows more about Harden than any of us.
I myself, after reading 400 comments and 2 articles am feeling better.
by ohmangoAs on Jul 8, 2008 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just FYI
Yahoo Sports A’s page has updated the roster to show the trade. Does anyone know if the new A’s will be at the game tonight?
by A'sfaninNC on Jul 8, 2008 6:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Pregame should be interesting
Wonder if anyone will be on to talk about the trade.
Might as well Jump! - Van Halen
by sprtsnwyn on Jul 8, 2008 6:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The pregrame should show the jumpers from third deck
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ah, but they tarped it off
Good idea—avoid the lawsuits.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the should tarp off the plaza level too
I think they’ve hurt even more their attendance numbers this year
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Like anyone was going anyways
Lets not start acting like A’s fans were putting forth any effort before this trade, ok?
Might as well Jump! - Van Halen
by sprtsnwyn on Jul 8, 2008 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about the trade before, and the trade before, and the trade before...
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Jul 9, 2008 12:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except for the all-you-can-eat section
Look out in 217 tonight …
by green star oakland on Jul 8, 2008 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My take, FWIW
My initial response was pretty similar to the prevailing thought on AN, basically “you’ve got to be fucking kidding.”
After thinking about it a bit, I am still disappointed, but not particularly angry. Harden is an injury waiting to happen, and trading him doesn’t really effect our future in any meaningful way except for the potential opportunity costs of speculative future trades. Gaudin is the real shocker, but I think one of two things explains Gaudin’s inclusion. First, Gaudin was barely pitching which makes me think he was a walking wounded. Second, Gaudin was a little independent for Beane’s taste, and Beane tends to make players who question his authority go away.
What did we get in this deal? Not an impact bat, that’s for sure. That does not necessarily make it a terrible deal, however. Ghallager is every bit as talented as Joe Blanton, and could really benefit from the A’s defense and park. Murton is a not a star, but he will be a valuable role player for the A’s. Donaldson was a second round pick last year because he has real offensive potential. His stats are bad, but it’s way too early to start calling him a bust. Patterson is a real wild card. He has great speed and above average power for a middle infielder, and is a mess in just about every other way. Maybe the A’s trade him, maybe they find a way to get value out of him.
I said yesterday that the A’s would not be able to pull of a fuckin’ A trade for Harden. I was right about that. I also said Beane would not trade Harden, and would hold out for more. I was very wrong about that.
Overall, not a great move, but I think it is pretty obvious at this point that Beane really doubts Harden’s health and for health or personality reasons wasn’t going to give Gaudin the chance to be a starter in the A’s organization.
by BlameChannel53 on Jul 8, 2008 6:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I dunno, I thought Gaudin was pretty respectful in his frustration
All his statements were basically “I know this helps the team, so I’ll go with it, but it sucks for me.” Which was true.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did too
But of course, that is what he said publicly. We don’t know what he said behind the scenes, and Beane is very sensitive to criticism.
It’s really hard to explain trading a healthy Gaudin unless there were personality issues. He did have a reputation from other organizations as being hard to coach and a bit mouthy.
by BlameChannel53 on Jul 8, 2008 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i got the impression
that Gaudin was not happy with his role in the bullpen. question is, if the trade of Harden opened up a spot in the rotation and Gaudin’s attitude would have improved, why trade him because he was pissed about being sent to the ‘pen??
by cvdoug on Jul 8, 2008 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beane on Harden
I think Beane realizes that Harden is one injury away from being worth absolutely zero. The guy has been on the DL seven times in six years (sounds familiar). We only need one magical half from him (again, sound familiar). Great trade for both teams. A’s get guys they can plug in immediately, Cubs get a front end Ace when healthy.
Good luck to Murton, EPat, and Gallagher in Oakland. There just wasn’t room for them on the Cubbies.
Beating LAA or wherever the fu*k they are, Priceless!
by MMunoz33 on Jul 8, 2008 6:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Good reply from
Cubs blog!!!
Beating LAA or wherever the fu*k they are, Priceless!
by MMunoz33 on Jul 8, 2008 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
EPat is a horrible nickname.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Jul 8, 2008 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We actually called him
Pesky.
Because he gets Pesky hits and shows pesky power. ;)
These are the saddest of possible words: "Tinker to Evers to Chance"
by slcathena on Jul 9, 2008 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haven't read through other posts but..
my initial reaction is we got nothing of value in return. BUT, remember 2 starts ago Rich said, “My arm felt dead”. Maybe Billy knew (another DL stint looming).
Chad on the other hand is a loss to the A’s. Unfortunately he got shafted and stuck in the pen and in the wrong position this year but had we thrown him into a starters role we may have had a trade centered around him instead of “throwing him in this deal as “insurance” for Chicago.
by HRH on Jul 8, 2008 6:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Let me be the first,
or close to it. We just made a good trade. It hurts right now, because Harden had been pitching well. And Gaudin in the bullpen doing mop-up has planted an absence-makes-the-heart grow fonder seed in the heart of A’s fans.
BUT:
1. Harden is clearly not 100%. He no longer throws anything but two pitches, and even that doesn’t appear to be enough to keep him healthy, if the last two starts are any guide. I don’t think Beane has any inside info the Cubbies don’t, it’s just that they are more willing to take a chance on him. If his arm falls off, the A’s would be losing all value, and given the fact that he hasn’t thrown 200 innings ever, or 100 since 2005, the chances of him staying healthy are too small to justify keeping him.
2. We all saw Gaudin’s first half last year, but let me ask you- why isn’t he putting up numbers like that this year, if he is 100% healthy himself? Was it a fluke? Is he pissed off about being moved to the bullpen? I’m not saying he’s been bad, but he has hardly been dominant. He’s complained in the media, he might be dogging it in the ‘pen, he’s hardly a lock on being a quality starter in two years time, and he’s a perfect insurance policy for Harden.
All three of the guys we got, (not counting a first-rounder from last year!) are guys who put up good enough numbers all the way through the minors to give you reason to believe they can be solid major leaguers. Okay, no All-Stars, or 1000 OPS guys, but guys who can play the game. I’ll be sorry to see Ellis go, but we have to recognize that this team does not want to pay for free agents. When you bring a guy up, you simply have too many years of control over him for free agents to be worth their price.
This was a good trade for both teams. The A’s get a good shot a being better in 2010, and the Cubs get Harden, who has a chance of winning a playoff series for you this year. I wanted to see the A’s make a run at it this year, but without Big Frank and Big Sweeney, it does not appear that we have the bats to justify the risk of keeping Harden for a playoff series that probably would never happen for us.
Since I started writing Blame posted above, and I pretty much agree.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 6:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The A's are a deep team
They don’t need more “solid players” or “guys who can play the game.” They’re perfectly capable of putting out a league-average player at every position and winning 81 games.
There is one and only one thing that the team actually needed in a trade of Harden, and that is a star-caliber prospect. Regardless of position. They didn’t get it.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus to trade Harden, Haren and Swisher
and not address the left side of the infield at all (unless Donaldson reverts to 3rd) is confusing me.
by green star oakland on Jul 8, 2008 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also true, although I feel more sanguine about the state of the system at those positions
than I did at the start of the season. Petit, Horton, Baisley and Guzman having breakout years makes the depth chart look a lot better.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm having this problem
of writing long posts that end up out of place by the time I finish.
I like those guys, and have been happily following their numbers all year. But Patterson seriously upgrades that list.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How?
I’ve heard not a word of him playing short or third base.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
From all reports
his fielding is shoddy enough that we aren’t moving him to third. I was talking about second (which you don’t consider open, I understand). However, if Patterson does play second, Guzman/Petit are freed up to play (incredibly terrible defense at) third.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 9, 2008 4:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
League Average
For being capable of putting out a league-average player at every position, we sure are playing a lot of Jack Hannahan, Bobby Crosby, and Emil Brown.
by Emmett89 on Jul 8, 2008 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who
is their league average player at 2nd to replace Ellis? I’d prefer to pay him, too, but looks like that is not going to happen. Patterson pretty seriously upgrades the contenders: Petit, Guzman…??? I’m going to throttle someone watching all the errors, but I willing to bet one of them has a great Spring next year, and gets the job done.
Unless you see Jack Cust as your dream left-fielder, Aaron Cunningham is too far away to count on next year. Cust needs to be a DH, and Murton seriously upgrades the remainder: Gonzalez (only sure-fire major leaguer), Sweeney (way above projection this year, but gets hurt and reminds me a little too much of:), Buck (slumping in AAA), Davis, Cunningham, Denorfia…???
And Gallagher is the best player in the deal.
We have to face the fact that we weren’t going to get an All-Star for a question mark like Rich.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The player to replace Ellis is... Mark Ellis
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you agree with me now?
:) I want Ellis back, too. Saddest part of this trade. Though, we don’t know what has been going on in the contract negotiations, which may have had something to do with this trade.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, I've been banging this drum since last fall
There is no player in all of baseball who projects as a better fielder relative to position.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Economics of Baseball
The teams get to lock up guys for so many years, free agents cost more than they are worth. Teams like the A’s get screwed, because of the limits on where the Yankee’s and Red Sox can flex their muscles. It sucks, but it’s the truth.
I’ve been following your man-crush on Elly all season, and sympathize, but never expected them to re-sign him. I was hoping all the talk about “wanting to stay in Oakland” meant they might be able to afford him. But I think we got our answer on that today.
Still, maybe we can move Patterson to the OF. We’ll see.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously.
Asking if PT likes Ellis, is like asking if Kimberly likes Swooney.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Jul 8, 2008 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And not to pile on, PT
but they did not appear to be capable of fielding more than two of those types of players on Sunday. Granted, the waves all broke just right, but still…
Fortunately, this is his age-28 year: his killing productivity is likely to decline. Impressive range, though. -Monkeyball
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 8, 2008 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
on your comment that we have depth, we needed a talent. couldnt agree more.
by oakinboston on Jul 8, 2008 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure
we have enough depth, considering our recent starting line-ups. How about talented depth?
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly right
and that’s what has me shaking my head.
by cvdoug on Jul 8, 2008 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Writing off this season...
is a no-brainer. We weren’t hitting to begin with and now the line-up is swiss cheese with all the injuries. By the time we have any bats we’ll be so far behind it’ll be too late to mount a charge. Losing Harden is a financial decision. Until Wally Haas or his checkbook are reincarnated we have to live with baseball economics. For now we still have solid pitching and a good farm system. Maybe the Cubs can win their first series in 100 years with Harden and Gaudin. They have the cash and they put fans in the seats. They should win once every 100 years or so. The A’s win when they have a prosperous owner and lose when they don’t. And that’s benn true for more than 100 years.
by since64inkc on Jul 8, 2008 6:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Warriors are pathetic
. I am not renewing my season tickets. Think of it -> you offer more money than the 76ers and still get rejected. You offer a deal to Gilbert Arenas and get rejected. You low ball Baron Davis because you think he will never leave and he leaves ya.
NBA insiders around the league never for one second though Brand would consider the Warriors. I call that a negative stigma of what is a pathetic franchise that makes one bad decision after another and does not know how to placate stars. You traded Webber, he goes on to success with Washington/Sacrament o. You trade Sprewell and he goes on to the title series with the Knicks. You trade Mitch Richmond for Billy Owens. You trade Tim Hardaway for Bimbo Coles – the list goes on and on and on.
It doesn’t matter who is in the front office – there is a culture of losing and ineptitude that has plagued this franchise for over a decade.
Chris Cohan – sell the team. The new owner should hire Jerry West to run the operation and we will have success. Our current direction will lead nowhere.
Mark my words – the Warriors will overpay mid-level free agents so they won’t take a total negative PR hit here in the Bay. Too late you suck a** Warriors. You lost me as a fan today. Let’s hear more excuses chumps!!
Beating LAA or wherever the fu*k they are, Priceless!
by MMunoz33 on Jul 8, 2008 6:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wrong window?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just
trying to liven up the mood! HAHA
Beating LAA or wherever the fu*k they are, Priceless!
by MMunoz33 on Jul 8, 2008 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maggette
go check the news. things got better, quick.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They just signed
Corey Maggette so I’m right there with you bro!
fucking Warriors kill me!!!!!!
by mrod on Jul 8, 2008 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Y! Sports' Jeff Passan on the "Haul"
At first glance, the haul for the Athletics wasn’t as strong as the prospects they received from the Arizona Diamondbacks for Dan Haren last off-season. Gallagher could develop into a solid No. 3 starter, Murton is a former top prospect who has struggled, Patterson is unproven and Donaldson is batting .217 in Class-A.
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 6:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
But Haren was a much more valuable chip than Harden
by green star oakland on Jul 8, 2008 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
but basically we gave up a (oft-injured) #1 and a number 5 for a number 3 and garbage
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is the average of those two numbers when added together?
by A'sfaninNC on Jul 8, 2008 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The same as the average when not added together?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 8, 2008 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know that the average is three (fingers and toes not involved)
the point was to get everyone to clam down and understand that yeah the A’s trades Harden but still have Duke as out number 1 (now), Blanton at #2, the new guys as a qualtiy #3 and the two rookies to round out the rotation. So the trade brought us a potential upgraded #3 started and a not consistent hitter than Cust albeit with less power.
by A'sfaninNC on Jul 9, 2008 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could see it coming
but not happy at all, especially with the inclusion of Gaudin. Sorry, Dallas Braden in the rotation is a joke…any trade of Harden needed to include Gaudin taking his spot in the rotation. If it was Harden alone and the trade included a top prospect and 2 or 3 others instead of a busload of bodies, i could manage a smile. If management has tossed in the towel on 2008, so have i.
by cvdoug on Jul 8, 2008 6:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Braden is going to be the long man
Gallagher is taking Harden’s rotation spot.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
fine
Dallas Braden on the A’s staff is a joke. From the numbers Gallagher seems roughly equal to Gaudin – except he pitches in that other inferior league. Take those 2 out of the deal and see what the A’s got for Harden. Not much, so why not keep him.
by cvdoug on Jul 8, 2008 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure why Braden is so hated around here
He had a bad year last year. That doesn’t make him human garbage. His career FIP is 4.23.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He can't get righties out -
he could be, at this point, a good LOOGY or a mop-up guy (especially with his hair), but until he figures out how to hold righties to less than a .333 average, he’s not much of a prospect.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 8, 2008 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
we’ve already agreed as a group to make Bonds our LOOGY.
Fortunately, this is his age-28 year: his killing productivity is likely to decline. Impressive range, though. -Monkeyball
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 8, 2008 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw Braden pitch a few weeks back, in the game against Toronto. We were getting blown out, so I could get down behind the plate and get a really good look at him. He does not get movement on his ball like a big leaguer. I swore I would never attend a game in which he started. He is a classic AAAA baller.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He will fit right in with this team, then.
Fortunately, this is his age-28 year: his killing productivity is likely to decline. Impressive range, though. -Monkeyball
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 8, 2008 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is he striking out a batter an inning then
Prestidigitation? Magic? Telekinesis?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't tell me you like Braden?!?
Please elaborate.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I just did
Career FIP: 4.23
Career K/9: 7.07
Those are not numbers typically posted by roster filler dudes at age 23-24. He has a career BABIP of .358 and a strand rate of 58 percent. No wonder his ERA looks freaking terrible.
It’s possible he’s tipping his pitches out of the stretch. That’s the only non-luck-based explanation I have for why his ERA is so out of line with his peripherals.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me either...
A 24 year old that carves up lefties and strikes out more than one batter an inning, isn’t chopped liver.
by Emmett89 on Jul 8, 2008 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's from Stockton.
What more of a reason do people need?
Actually I like him, but then I’m from Stockton.
It's Rhodes Scholar Night at the Coliseum tonight.
by Scottbass on Jul 8, 2008 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
let Braden throw his screwball...
I want to see what he can do with the pitch that made him interesting as a minor leaguer. Screw the injury risk.
Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb
by FoolshGame22 on Jul 8, 2008 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pun intended
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Thunder Comes to Oakland
Thunder Matt Murton is a good guy, and I really hope he does well for you. The last couple seasons have been rough for him as he really hasn’t had any sort of a role with the team. It’s tough to get into a good groove when you start one game and sit the next three. I think his situation got him frustrated and it began to effect his play. Here’s to hoping a change of scenery does him good.
by ironsij0287 on Jul 8, 2008 6:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I suspect we'll like Murton a lot
We don’t have a bunch of .293 career hitters parading up and down our lineup, that’s for sure. And if you look up his L/R splits, he looks like a solid hitter, period, not just a “platoon guy”.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 8, 2008 6:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Billy's got us two bats in the lineup the last couple of weeks...
Bankston and Murton. We’ll muddle through the rest of the season without Harden’s 5 wins. I still think we’ll win the AL West.
Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb
by FoolshGame22 on Jul 8, 2008 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well at least we still have Blanton
and not HARDEN and GAUDIN?
by butler19 on Jul 8, 2008 6:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm just an average old-school baseball fan
I don’t what a VORP is. I can’t tell you what WHIP means. I don’t know anybodies’ K/BB Ratio. But I do know that if I can only catch a few games at the Colosseum I would try to watch Rich Harden. Why?
1) We always had a chance to win. I’m more then a casual fan but I’ve never Google’d anybodies’ BABIP numbers. If I’m shelling out 40 bucks a ticket and spending 20 bucks for a hot dog and a beer, I want to see us win.
2) You always had a feeling Rich was gonna throw a perfect game or strikeout 20 guys or both. Realistically or not, I would find myself sitting there rooting against the other team getting a hit or even a walk.
You can’t replace that for a fan no matter how you slice it. Players like Harden brought an intangible quality to a game (and to the Oakland A’s in particular) that no amount of Murton’s splits or Gallagher’s groundball to flyball ratio can ever replace.
by petitceebee on Jul 8, 2008 6:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The problem with Harden is how often
he was, in fact, intangible.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 8, 2008 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
as such
it was logical to test the waters on a Harden trade. what the A’s got isn’t going to help them this year or in the future. because of that i’d rater have Harden and the excitement he brings even if he pitched only 5 more games the rest of the year.
by cvdoug on Jul 8, 2008 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is so true
To make a strange anaology, its like a guy/girl who seems great when you hang out, but refuses to call half the time, blows you off, and disrespects your time. Eventually you got to cut the cord…But you keep hanging on becuase of those few great times you had
"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse
by kbtoyz on Jul 8, 2008 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Please: girl/guy/goat
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 8, 2008 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cubs got your goat
Then again, given the curse of their franchise, getting a goat may or may not be a good idea.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
key phrase: "only catch a few games"
Not an indictment of your fanhood, petitceebee, but of Harden’s durability.
... arousing men to burst the chains under which monkeyish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves ... @('.')@
by monkeyball on Jul 8, 2008 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The world is still spinning
and the sun will come up tomorrow…but the A’s have once again reduced their fan base by dumping players. Gaudin = Gallagher (more or less) so the trade really boils down to Harden for Murton, Patterson and Donaldson. Not exactly impressive if you ask me.
by cvdoug on Jul 8, 2008 6:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Gallagher is better value than Gaudin
I’ll say that much. Why? Because he’s not in arbitration yet, so the team has him for 6 years instead of 3.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm beginning to think Gaudin is not Gallagher at all
The number of times the A’s have had some fringy pitcher come in an do spectacularly is getting suspicious. Eveland and Smith, Gaudin…etc.
Gallagher is a solid prospect. He made the BA top 100 prospect list (for perspective, Cahill didn’t at the beginning of the year, although he would now) had a 2.75 era in the minors across levels, and is 22(!).
Add to that the team-control that PT brings up, and throw in the cost savings (1.75 million) to boot.
I’d say Murton-Gaudin is a fine match- both were average quality, and both were underutilized on their teams.
So how does Gallagher, Patterson, and a C prospect for Harden sound? Well, maybe that’s market value for an injury prone pitcher who will pitch half a season over the next 1.5 seasons.
by ohmangoAs on Jul 8, 2008 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I haven't read enough
but “C” prospect might be harsh on Donaldson…Wasn’t he a first round pick?
Until this season, he seemed like a quality prospect.
by ohmangoAs on Jul 8, 2008 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
The mood on this thread is definitely changing.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
Gallagher > Gaudin, even if just for the team-control/cost issues while being equal otherwise. But still, Gallagher is 22 and the 2.77 ERA, 9.02 K/9, and 3.52 BB/9 makes him look like a solid potential starter while Gaudin is already older, doesn’t have the same starter experience and still carries some question marks with his control and health issues.
Leaving the Harden for M,P,D part of the trade. Certainly, not spectacular, and I know we all wanted to get an exciting bat if we gave up Harden. Regardless, a few weeks ago most were saying they hoped Harden could make enough starts for us to get ANYTHING for him before he went down again. I’d say in that light we did alright.
I still think Harden’s potential says “hold on to him” though. It’s always exciting to wonder at the beginning of every season if THIS is the year that Harden starts all year and wins the Cy and the World Series all with a smirk and a nasty splitfinger.
by juanmiguel on Jul 8, 2008 7:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not an apologist
but I also know that Billy Beane knows what the hell he’s doing.
My reality:
1. I would rather have BB than any other GM.
2. I trust that he made the best deal possible for the club at this time.
When I bought that damn t-shirt four or five years ago that said In Billy We Trust, I meant it. And I still do. He’s our guy, our captain, and damn if I’m going to start second-guessing him now. Just like both the Hudson and Mulder trades, I will not know if this is a good or bad trade for a while yet.
Fortunately, this is his age-28 year: his killing productivity is likely to decline. Impressive range, though. -Monkeyball
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 8, 2008 6:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I especially feel this way when it comes to
trading major leaguers for minor leaguers – I know the A’s know so much more than I do about who is worth trading for, while all I know is what we lost. I had literally never heard of Smith and Eveland when we acquired them, and they were seemingly not the main focus of the trade. I’ll trust Beane on this one.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 8, 2008 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's proven the majority of us
wrong far more often than right. Value the undervalued. He’s the GM, our GM (thank you, Hawk), for a reason. Let’s show the guy some love and some trust.
Fortunately, this is his age-28 year: his killing productivity is likely to decline. Impressive range, though. -Monkeyball
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 8, 2008 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To lighten to mood:
James Simmons pitching a Gem in Midland so far:
6IP 1H 0ER 0BB 8Ks
When will then be now? Soon.
by Syphon on Jul 8, 2008 6:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
We gto Melhuse back?!
Cool!
Fortunately, this is his age-28 year: his killing productivity is likely to decline. Impressive range, though. -Monkeyball
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 8, 2008 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2010-2011
is looking up. Simmons, Gio, Cahill, with Smith, Eveland, and Gallagher. Not to mention Mazarro, de los Santos, HRod…
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not a bad deal
I’m a bit surprised by the negative reactions.
HARDEN-GALLAGHER
I think that most of the people’s on here opinion of Harden is colored by watching him pitch. I don’t watch him (live on the East coast, we never get A’s games even on espn b/c they’re a small market club), so maybe I’m less biased and can just look at the stats. Harden’s never pitched 200 innings in his major league career. He’s a very expensive pitcher on a pro-rated basis, and will only get more expensive.
Gallagher seems to have good stuff – 93 mph fastball. And he’s had great numbers in the minors – never an ERA above 3.50. I presume the A’s think that he can start. 22 years old. The more you put all of this together, the more Gallagher looks like a very solid, healthy, cheap, young major league player. His major league stats-like Eveland’s before this year-are not indicative of his potential at the major leagues with a larger sample size. No history of injuries that I know of.
MATT MURTON:
This was a puzzler, mostly because I really like Travis Buck, and Murton really reminds me of Buck quite a bit statistically. Someone compared Murton to Kielty but Murton seems quite a bit better than Kielty. Also, the A’s are overloaded with outfielders and I thought they had a good thing going with Sweeney-Gonzalez-Buck, so I’m surprised by this – but maybe A’s were going for quality regardless of position? I don’t know who’ll take a seat in the outfield – Sweeney?
ERIC PATTERSON:
If you look at Ellis’ stats before and including his 25th year, Eric Patterson is clearly a better player-heck he might be better than Ellis NOW. Ellis is also getting old (31) and expensive ($5M). Patterson, again, is cheap and probably a better player than Ellis. He’s also versatile and can play center, maybe eliminating the need for Rajai Davis. Slugged an average of around .480 over the last 2 years in the minors. Steals bases with high % success rate, gets on base. Nice little player.
JOSH DONALDSON:
High ceiling throw-in, 1st round pick.
I know you folks like Gaudin but he was picked off the waiver wire. The A’s netted multiple former first round picks here. The more you look at this objectively and statistically, the better this deal looks for the A’s. My only real criticism of this deal is I would’ve liked to see the A’s get more pitching, as opposed to position players, but that may not have been possible. I would say very, very good deal for the A’s.
by halflink123 on Jul 8, 2008 6:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
WOW
to even say Patterson might be as good as Ellis now totally discredits your post. Look at Ellis’s defense and remember, this is Moneyball.
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Offensively
It doesn’t seem so crazy, and with his speed…I don’t know.
by Emmett89 on Jul 8, 2008 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ellis is a league average player on offense
who has been +30 runs on defense for 2 years running now.
It’s really easy to find prospects who project to be as good as Ellis offensively. Doesn’t mean squat, though.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So projections are pick and choose?
Can use them for some plays and can’t use them for some players? That’s the vibe I get in general around here.
Might as well Jump! - Van Halen
by sprtsnwyn on Jul 8, 2008 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you have to be careful
saying mean things like that about mark ellis in these here parts.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
What players have I rejected projections for?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's interesting
Moneyball talked about how there wasn’t an emphasis on defense.
Might as well Jump! - Van Halen
by sprtsnwyn on Jul 8, 2008 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
really?
is a major tenant of Moneyball NOT giving away outs? this applies both offensively and defensively.
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
But the fact that they were trotting Jeremy Giambi, Terrance Long, Matt Stairs, and Ben Grieve out there say otherwise. It was about not giving away outs on offense, and that that would offset the perceived lack of defense.
Might as well Jump! - Van Halen
by sprtsnwyn on Jul 8, 2008 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When Moneyball was published
there was widespread speculation that defense was “the new moneyball”, ie, the undervalued commodity now that OBP was no longer undervalued.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Jul 8, 2008 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how do you quantify defense? this isn’t a rhetorical question…I don’t know. Also, how do you know Patterson is a bad defender? Again, I have no idea about Patterson’s defense (or really even Ellis’), so that’s why I’m asking.
by halflink123 on Jul 8, 2008 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are charts and ways to quantify Defense
"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse
by kbtoyz on Jul 8, 2008 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
re:
He’s a bad defender, believe me. The guy has all the tools to be above average at 2B, but the guy makes a lot of mental mistakes and his footwork really gets questionable at times.
You’d think he would get better with more coaching and experience, but that just hasn’t been the case with him since the Cubs drafted him.
by Outshined_One on Jul 8, 2008 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is D quantified?
The Play by Play metrics, like Zone Rating, Revised Zone Rating, Ultimate Zone Rating, Plus Minus, are all based on data that is accumulated by humans watching every play of every game, and then charting the outcomes.
Simplistically, in a simple like Zone Rating, RZR, the field is devised into various zones, which are then assigned as being the “responsibility” of a particular position. When a ball is hit into that zone, the outcome is recorded.
Plus Minus and UZR work on the same basic principles, but are more complex, have more tweaks to add more granularity.
The raw ratings, like say .900 zone rating, are then taken and converted into runs relative to average, based on the run value of a play at a particular position.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jul 9, 2008 3:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"This is Moneyball"
is hardly an argument.
not that I disagree with the first part of your post…
by ohmangoAs on Jul 8, 2008 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the argument is...
that saying (or even speculating) that Patterson is as good as Ellis now is absurd. And that in Moneyball, defense is taken into account in that you do not give away outs.
Perhaps I should have explained my initial post better.
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defense being valuable
has nothing to do with Moneyball. It has to do with winning at baseball. Again, the argument made sense vis-a-vis Ellis/Patterson, but I though the “this is Moneyball” was a sort of loud statement that really said nothing at all.
I get your point though, obviously, so fair enough.
by ohmangoAs on Jul 8, 2008 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
while I see your point
I disagree. fewer errors (ie not giving away outs) defensively is to moneyball what not stealing (ie not giving away outs) is offensively.
by coberloco on Jul 8, 2008 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
just to clarify…I didn’t intend to say that Patterson is better than Ellis now (I said he might be, but I implied that that’s a stretch). I meant to say that at age 25, Patterson is better than where Ellis was at age 25. To be honest, I don’t really know why people love Ellis so much, probably b/c I don’t really know about his defense. But he’s not a very good hitter (he’s average), and to me second base doesn’t seem to be an incredibly important position in which to have a good defensive player. I mean, how many more outs can you really make if a guy has excellent range or reflexes? It seems far less important than in CF/1B/3B/SS
by halflink123 on Jul 8, 2008 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
See above. Or below, for that matter.
Ellis is the best defender in baseball. He is 25 runs better than an average defensive 2B according to a variety of metrics. That’s frigging huge—it’s like replacing Alfonso Soriano with Shannon Stewart as your starting left fielder.
2B is, in fact, the second most important “normal” defensive position (after shortstop; catcher is a quandary unto itself). And Ellis is very very very good at it. Baseballthinkfactory rated him as the 10th best overall player in the American League last season.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
interesting
but very counterintuitive-you’re telling me CF is less important than 2B? Not that I disagree, I just don’t see it intuitively.
I wonder where Luis Castillo is ranked by baseballthinkfactory then? He seems to play pretty good defense, too.
by halflink123 on Jul 8, 2008 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
take a look and get back to us
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
by flipgatey3 on Jul 8, 2008 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
couldn't find it
but they said Chase Utley (!?) was the best defensive NL 2B, followed by Hudson/Matsui/Giles…don’t know how they come up w this-theyre counting DRS which I don’t know what that is…sthg about LWZR
I don’t really give a * anyway, haha
by halflink123 on Jul 8, 2008 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's interesting
although reports i’ve read say utley’s D is severely underrated and he’s gotten a lot better
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
by flipgatey3 on Jul 8, 2008 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Utley is an exceptional defensive second baseman
He was the legitimate NL MVP last season (even missing a month!), and that, along with his hitting, is why.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Most balls hit to the outfield are either uncatchable by everyone or catchable by almost anyone. The margin between a good CF and a bad CF is less than that between a good 2B and a bad 2B because the 2B has more “could go either way” plays where his skill has a chance to make a difference.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mark Ellis
To be honest, I don’t really know why people love Ellis so much, probably b/c I don’t really know about his defense.
Yes, that would certainly explain it. If you don’t know about his defense then you don’t know Ellis.
There’s two reasons to love Ellis. One is his extremely good defense. He isn’t super flashy with crazy highlight-reel dives. He just positions himself very intelligently and reaches an extraordinary number of balls that other middle infielders would miss.
The second reason is somewhat related: He’s a very smart player with an excellent work ethic. He’s very professional, keeps his cool, and doesn’t make mental mistakes.
His hitting is, as you note, average. But most 2B’s who are great defenders or smart players do it at the expense of having a weak bat. Ellis has an average bat, and that’s good.
I’m not even a huge Ellis fan. I’m just saying this as one who follows the team and is aware of his value.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Jul 8, 2008 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mark Ellis
is the 2b equivalent of Adam Everett, Pedro Feliz, Endy Chavez.
With the difference being that, unlike all those guys, he can actually hit. Ellis is the A’s best player over the last couple seasons, and one of the best players in the AL West over the last couple seasons.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jul 9, 2008 3:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rob Neyer
has a positive spin on this…typical of Neyer with anything regarding Beane
but he thinks the A’s a better NOW for this season with this trade, with two starting OFs and a capable high ceiling starting pitcher
and you know what, he could be right. And I imagine the players have full faith in Beane
Let's have our Piazza and eat the Cust too - SPWC
by closetasfan on Jul 8, 2008 6:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The guys we traded for
can’t possibly be any worse than the lineup we threw out there against the White Sox on Sunday.
Fortunately, this is his age-28 year: his killing productivity is likely to decline. Impressive range, though. -Monkeyball
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 8, 2008 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Neyer makes some good points
To be fair, the outfield right now is makeshift and sketchy at best. The lineup has been AAAA quality for the past two weeks, and Murton and Patterson have as good a chance as any to improve that (thank you EMil and Gregorio). If Gallagher can make the transition, I’ll take his promise over Rich’s inconsistency
"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse
by kbtoyz on Jul 8, 2008 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow
that is a pretty glowing review. way to go rob?
by oakinboston on Jul 8, 2008 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reality Check
I’m Billy Beane Sucka! You know how I roll. You flip houses. I flip players. Quantity is Quality. Yeahhhh. Oakland A’s for life!
by StewEck on Jul 8, 2008 6:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Just to make the night complete we have
Outahan in the lineup tonight batting 8th.
No matter rebuilding or whatever we are doing. I hate seeing this guy on the team. No one can tell me our genius GM cannot find a (half a) single A replacement that could do better in a wheelchair than this stiff.
That is my rant for the day
Go A’s
by Trainman on Jul 8, 2008 6:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I doubt you are finished for the day
Might as well Jump! - Van Halen
by sprtsnwyn on Jul 8, 2008 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Outahan batting 8th went 2-for-3 today.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Jul 8, 2008 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just hope by the time I wake up tomorrow..
Murton replaces Brown or Davis. Gallagher is already slated to start Friday so thats good. But I want Murton in LF ASAP.
When will then be now? Soon.
by Syphon on Jul 8, 2008 6:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was in San Francisco, out of internet range this afternoon
Driving down Van Ness, I stopped at a red light, looked over to my right and saw an A’s rug hanging in the window of a carpet store. “Oh! That reminds me, it must be time for Marty Lurie!” I turned it on and heard Rich’s voice and knew even before he said his third word—he sounded so dejected. I screamed so loud the panhandler working his way through the stopped cars almost came over to give me $1. Then I had to inch my way back over the bridge listening to Fosse, KenKo, Ray Ratto, and Huston doing variations on “Well, it LOOKS like a terrible trade but if Billy made it there must be something we don’t know….”.
I hope and believe that Rich Harden will pitch a winning game in the World Series, and maybe now it will be this year. I wish it could have been for us. Goodbye, my magical smirking Canadian prince.
Don't blame me, I voted for Ice Cream
by Englishmajor on Jul 8, 2008 7:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey, think of it this way
Now his sister can a. swim Lake Michigan, b. find out what REALLY obnoxious hockey fans (viz. Blackhawks fans) are like.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's true
Now my question is—what can I do with this?
Don't blame me, I voted for Ice Cream
by Englishmajor on Jul 8, 2008 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Change the H to an M, the A to a U, the D to a T
and wait to find out what number Murton is wearing before updating the math.
by green star oakland on Jul 8, 2008 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
remove the "H" and reverse the letters ...
... and start rooting for a real hack of an AP writer.
... arousing men to burst the chains under which monkeyish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves ... @('.')@
by monkeyball on Jul 8, 2008 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, okay
I said very little after Huddy was traded (which considering ALL the players we lost is amazing), but this &&# $&()$ I cannot keep quite about.
Are you *&^x%x(x%x kidding me?! The guy finally starts to gets healthy and it finally starts to look like we might have him for a second half run (not to mention next season) and this is the *(&#$ you pull BB?
I’m burning that stupid “In Billy We Trust” Tshirt I got as a gift and am replacing it with a ^(*&$ Yourself BB You Stupid *&($&(@. SERIOUSLY? Wouldn’t it have been better to take this thing out to the July 31st deadline to see where we were? Or MAYBE, just maybe let Rich pitch us into the offseason where his value would have been worth more than that trash you got or even into next year’s deadline? UNLESS his arms falls off in his next start I think I can honestly say that I no longer have any interest in watching this team farm the majors any longer.
Thanks BB, you ruined baseball for me! And now I have to change my damn AN name.
"Baseball is like a church. Many attend, but few understand." - Wes Westrum
by oaklandfan40 on Jul 8, 2008 7:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
sober up and get back to us later
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
by flipgatey3 on Jul 8, 2008 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm scared that this is a dreaded.....
SALERY DUMP!! I have had faith. I have believed. I still love, but now I doubt BB and Wolfee. I know Harden could get injured in the shower. I know one or more of these kids COULD pan out, but none the less I feel very sad. Not optimistic with an outside the box trade, but just very sad. I would be so happy if this worked out and helped us be in the playoff mix in ‘10, but I really feel like the wind was taken out of our sails and we are only halfway to Hawaii. Is anybody else having that not so fresh feeling or am I being overdramatic? Bye bye to our last homegrown high ceiling prospect. I’m not going to burn down OACS or anything, but I don’t think I will sleep well tonight. Here’s to hoping we were not just saving Lew some loot.we were not just saving Lew some loot.
The first rule of Oakland is - you do not talk about injuries. The second rule of Oakland is - you DO NOT talk about trainers." - Larry Davis
by norcalfan on Jul 8, 2008 7:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it's a celery dump
... no, don’t ask me what that means, cause I don’t know either.
Really, though… I mean, no. It wasn’t. Teams don’t dump salaries this small. Doesn’t happen. Well, unless you’re Jeffrey Loria. And even he got good value back for Cabrera and (shudder) Willis.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Time to Party Like It's 1999
Ye of little faith, he’s not done yet.
Think of it this way—harden pitches 6 straight starts for the first time in 4 seasons. the last two games are “dead arm” games—hmmm-- Sabathia goes to Brewers and sends a shiver down Jim Hendry’s spine- tell me, do you really believe Beane could have gotten more than this scenario? particularly if anything happens to Harden in any of the next four starts before the trading deadline? He has always been one step ahead of the decline.
Now by my count—leaving Inoa out ofd the discussion since he’s at least three and more likely four years away from any comtribution, the A’s even without Harden and gaudin have the following major league quality arms either here or, at most, one to two years away:
Blanton
Duke
Eveland
Smith
Gonzalez
Gallagher
Cahill
simmons
Anderson
De Los santos
And I’m sure I’m missing someone. Want an impact bat?? Just watch Billy flip one or more of these guys plus one or more position player prospects—and the impact might be immediate. It’s 1999 all over again.
by windyfelix on Jul 8, 2008 7:43 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
I like your take.
Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb
by FoolshGame22 on Jul 8, 2008 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mazzaro, yes
DLS, no… he’s at least 3 years away at this point thanks to Dr. Lewis Yokum and company.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jul 8, 2008 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
You are right on – this is exactly the point.
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagines such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 8, 2008 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still feel like I got dumped by my ex-girlfriend
all over again…..........time to start drinking!
by mrod on Jul 8, 2008 8:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
on the other hand
It’s like suspecting that you would catch your ex-GF cheating on you any day, so in the long run, it’s probably better that she’s gone.
by asfansince1989 on Jul 8, 2008 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you get dumped by your EX-girlfriend?
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Jul 8, 2008 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know what I signed up for when I became an A’s fan, but still, it really hurts me to lose my favourite player after losing my 2nd favourite in Swish during the offseason.
I followed Rich ever since very early in his career when I saw that the A’s drafted a Canadian in 2000. Being a Canadian, and a baseball player myself in a country that doesn’t have a whole lot of quality guys to look up to, I always pull for them and it just so happened he was in my favourite organiztion.
When he came up to the bigs, he pretty much vaulted himself to my favourite player status behind Barry Zito and has by far been my favourite since Zito left. Injuries side, from 2006 on, Harden had some of the best stuff in the AL, if not in all of baseball.
I’d probably be lying if I said I didn’t think he’d ever get traded. He never stayed healthy enough to really warrant a long term contract to take him a few years into free agency, and unfortunately did not seem to get a whole lot in return prospect-wise.
Comparing the Swisher and Haren deals, I would have thought Harden would snag at least a future #1 or #2 pitcher instead of a couple of “hopefullys”. That’s probably the biggest sting of this trade – not just do I lose my favourite player but my team doesn’t seem to get much in return either.
love, mike in canada
by oakland ehs on Jul 8, 2008 8:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Um
Didn’t the Cubs come crawling to us? BB wasn’t under any pressure to make a move at all… what is this? Where is Vitters? Why did we get another OF without much pop – don’t we already have like 8 of those?
Watch Harden go onto win multiple Cy Youngs… I really expected BB to do better than this. This isn’t his calling card at all – he usually goes after the guys in AA and below… not scrubs who can’t stick in the Cub’s lineup over Reed Johnson and Jim Edmonds…
Michel Inoa SAVE US
by C-Gon on Jul 8, 2008 8:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Gallgher's Pecota 7 Year Projection
Year W L SV G GS IP H BB SO HR GB% BABIP Stuff WHIP ERA PERA ERA H9 BB9 K9 HR9 VORP WXRL WARP
2008 (age 22) 7 7 1 34 17 121.0 127 62 89 16 45% .299 1 1.56 4.98 5.24 5.18 9.1 4.1 5.8 1.1 7.9 1.6 1.6
2009 (age 23) 6 7 1 35 14 110.0 119 51 81 16 45% .303 -2 1.55 5.23 5.30 5.44 9.4 3.7 5.9 1.2 4.5 1.0 1.3
2010 (age 24) 6 7 1 36 12 105.3 114 48 78 16 45% .303 -2 1.54 5.19 5.28 5.40 9.4 3.6 5.8 1.3 4.2 1.0 1.1
2011 (age 25) 4 5 1 29 8 78.7 86 34 60 10 46% .314 1 1.52 4.93 5.14 5.15 9.5 3.4 6.0 1.1 5.5 0.9 1.1
2012 (age 26) 5 5 2 35 9 90.0 100 40 70 12 45% .315 -1 1.55 5.20 5.33 5.41 9.6 3.5 6.1 1.2 3.4 0.7 0.9
2013 (age 27) 4 4 2 31 5 71.7 78 31 53 10 46% .305 -2 1.52 4.85 5.13 5.05 9.4 3.5 5.9 1.2 5.6 0.8 1.1
2014 (age 28) 3 3 1 22 4 51.0 54 20 40 6 46% .306 2 1.44 4.53 4.80 4.73 9.2 3.1 6.2 1.1 7.2 0.7 1.2
The formatting is ugly (I don’t see a way to do tables), but basically his equivalent ERA is projected to be over 5 for the next 6 years.
by nevermoor on Jul 8, 2008 8:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
For table formatting use <pre> </pre>
(Or, thanks to a bug, just put a space at the beginning of each line.)
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Jul 8, 2008 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like this
Year W L SV G GS IP H BB SO HR GB% BABIP Stuff WHIP ERA PERA ERA H9 BB9 K9 HR9 VORP WXRL WARP 2008 (age 22) 7 7 1 34 17 121.0 127 62 89 16 45% .299 1 1.56 4.98 5.24 5.18 9.1 4.1 5.8 1.1 7.9 1.6 1.6 2009 (age 23) 6 7 1 35 14 110.0 119 51 81 16 45% .303 -2 1.55 5.23 5.30 5.44 9.4 3.7 5.9 1.2 4.5 1.0 1.3 2010 (age 24) 6 7 1 36 12 105.3 114 48 78 16 45% .303 -2 1.54 5.19 5.28 5.40 9.4 3.6 5.8 1.3 4.2 1.0 1.1 2011 (age 25) 4 5 1 29 8 78.7 86 34 60 10 46% .314 1 1.52 4.93 5.14 5.15 9.5 3.4 6.0 1.1 5.5 0.9 1.1 2012 (age 26) 5 5 2 35 9 90.0 100 40 70 12 45% .315 -1 1.55 5.20 5.33 5.41 9.6 3.5 6.1 1.2 3.4 0.7 0.9 2013 (age 27) 4 4 2 31 5 71.7 78 31 53 10 46% .305 -2 1.52 4.85 5.13 5.05 9.4 3.5 5.9 1.2 5.6 0.8 1.1 2014 (age 28) 3 3 1 22 4 51.0 54 20 40 6 46% .306 2 1.44 4.53 4.80 4.73 9.2 3.1 6.2 1.1 7.2 0.7 1.2
Of course when your table is that wide, it’s going to run off the column even in “wide” mode.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Jul 8, 2008 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw Harden's first ML game in Anaheim.
Halo fans were in amazed at his stuff. I just hope he didn’t turn out to be another Van Poppel.
by What Would Rickey Do on Jul 8, 2008 8:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
There is an A in "DABDA."
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance
So it goes.
by jeepers on Jul 8, 2008 8:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Harden.
I think he’s gotten more face time on ESPN today than he has for the rest of his career combined.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
by KMoAsFan on Jul 8, 2008 9:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't blame me, I voted for Ice Cream
by Englishmajor on Jul 8, 2008 10:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
reading this...
I just realise how big Petit’s error in Harden last might have been. It is a big what if, but the last game againts the White Sox really revealed some possible problems/weaknesses with Harden. Another ‘bad’ outing may have really hurt Harden’s value and could be the cause for not waiting for better offers for Harden.
by Harry2m on Jul 8, 2008 11:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's a really interesting point
... arousing men to burst the chains under which monkeyish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves ... @('.')@
by monkeyball on Jul 9, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When I saw the headline on the A's website..
“A’s get four for Harden and Gaudin” I was really exited to see what we got in return. But when I read the rest of the article I wasn’t really impressed with what we got. I expected the same amount of talent and buzz as with the Haren trade but I’m not feeling it. Hope these guys can prove me wrong, but I think Beane could and should have done better on this one.
by Harry2m on Jul 8, 2008 11:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I feel like we've been waiting for an impact bat since 2002.
Seriously, Billy, what the fuck? The stick, it hits the ball. Give us a person that does that.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Jul 9, 2008 12:33 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I totally agree.
"Ryan [Sweeney] has got the perfect baseball body..." -Mike Sweeney
by Christine on Jul 9, 2008 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the one hand,
we’ve been waiting for Harden to be “healthy” enough to be traded for awhile. On the other hand… really, Billy? This? REALLY?
Ugh.
I was at Harden’s first start at the Coliseum, and I remember that crazy hope that welled up, watching him mow down Cleveland and seeing an A’s pitcher actually hit something over 95… It was a special kind of hope, a first love that is pure forever.
Then the trades happened, and it was like that ugly breakup you know is coming, but then you still feel surprised to find all your shit tossed on the lawn and the locks changed.
And then Harden was actually able to START a few times this season, and there was Duke, and it was that one night rekindling that ends with a hangover, finding your wallet stolen, and realizing she drove over your cat on the way out.
It just feels strange to do it NOW, after everything we waited on with that damn kid.
I’m just depressed. I can’t even feel anymore during these trades, I think Billy killed off my feel-ability.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Jul 9, 2008 12:43 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This trade brings back memories of a few other notable decisions....
Nothing against Geren, but I’d still prefer to see Ron Washington managing the A’s
Opting for continuity and experience over name value, A’s assistant general manager David Forst introduced Bob Geren as the club’s new manager on Friday.
If he were, maybe things would have been different with this guy…..
the A’s on Friday sent Bradley to the San Diego Padres for Triple-A righty Andrew Brown and an undisclosed amount of cash.
and our resident genius had one of his man crushes on this guy…
The Athletics were near the bottom of the lineup during Thursday morning’s Rule 5 Draft, but they wound up with the first player selected in the Major League phase of the selection process. Moments after the annual draft ended, the A’s acquired outfielder Ryan Goleski from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for cash considerations.
and that didn’t work out so well, especially considering the next two players selected…
Joakim Soria
Josh Hamilton
by cvdoug on Jul 9, 2008 2:43 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Lest ye forget...
.... the impressive haul we got for Tim Hudson: Dan Meyer, Charles Thomas and Juan Cruz. Uh….
However, more recent history with the Haren, Swisher and Kotsay trades (get well soon, Joey) makes it look like Billy is back on his game and we are truly stacked with the most valuable commodity in the game: young arms.
So we can only hope that when the A’s truly have a chance to compete for a World Series in 20XX (and not just a first round ALDS washout which was honestly the best we could dream about this year) that we can use those to get the impact bat(s) we so desperately need.
by itsgemme on Jul 9, 2008 6:33 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Just because
it is Billy, there is no guarantee of success. I Remember the good and the bad. Plenty of good/great trades, some pretty bad ones too.
Gallagher = downgrade in rotation, Murton = upgrade over Emil Brown, Patterson = warm body, Donaldson = not so warm body.
I have no doubt that Gallagher has a shot to stick in the rotation, but at the moment he is the #5 starter – a job that Gaudin could have filled. Only attribute he has over Gaudin is his age and service time.
Why send Murton to AAA?? If he can hit, throw him in the outfield with Sweeney and CarGon. Only reason to keep E.Brown on the roster ahead of Murton is to work a trade…do it quickly Billy!! Patterson/Brown/Embry for someone we can actually get excited about would be nice.
by cvdoug on Jul 9, 2008 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Revisiting the Mulder trade....
there was a lot of “we traded Mulder for who?” and “why didn’t we get _ instead?” At the time, Dan Haren was considered a potential middle-of-the-rotation starter, and people were wondering why we didn’t get Jim Journell (who hasn’t pitched in the US since 2006) or Blake Hawksworth (stuck in AAA three and a half years later). Yeah, we coulda had one of those guys instead. But obviously that trade worked out quite nicely for the A’s. Yes, in contrast, we got jack for Hudson. So really, we cannot assess the value received right now. This trade, pretty much like all Beane trades, will require a wait-and-see approach.
That said, what I’m really struggling to understand is the perceived value some fans have placed on Harden. I mean, this is a clear case of “what have you done for me lately” only with Harden, the lately has been pretty damn good rather than bad. However, he is still the same pitcher who just three months ago landed on the DL for the SIXTH time in the less than four seasons. And just said something about a dead arm following two sorta rough starts. Seriously, how many winters have we said, “Well, if Harden’s healthy…..” This is not a secret to you or me, and it’s certainly not a secret to any GM. Harden carries so much risk that any GM offering someone of real value only to have it backfire is probably risking his job.
I understand a lot of fans were emotionally invested in Harden…I am too. But unlike those of you who are focusing on his last 11 starts (particularly 6/26), I see a guy who has constantly teased and disappointed over the last three and a half years.
by scatterbrian on Jul 9, 2008 2:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why so down on this trade?
Gaudin is being so horribly overrated in this comments section. He is complete trash outside of the Coliseum so for those that think his inclusion swung the deal for the Cubs are flat out incorrect. Meanwhile, the return for Harden wasn’t too bad. He’s a ticking DL-time bomb and the A’s decided to get out from under it. Given Beane’s track record, I trust the trade.
http://pauls.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/as-trade-harden-beane-gets-ripped-2/
by psporer on Jul 10, 2008 5:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Most A's pitchers
are better in the Mausoleum generally. Gaudin’s problem, at least as a starter last season, was facing teams a second, third, fourth time. He just doesn’t have the arsenal to be more than a swingman in the major leagues.
by scatterbrian on Jul 10, 2008 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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