Cubs Want Some Harden
by C-Gon on Jul 7, 2008 8:41 AM PDT
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PrintEDITOR'S NOTE: I found this to be the topic that I want to talk about all the time now because we're really getting to a fascinating time of year. The trading deadline is just a little over three weeks away and the A's are sliding a bit now. I wouldn't doubt if this upcoming weekend is the decision time for Beane as to whether or not he's going to make Harden and Duchscherer available for the highest bidder. This could be one of the most interesting trading deadlines in Billy Beane's tenure as GM. - Blez
From Rotoworld:
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The Chicago Sun-Times reports that the Cubs have been talking with Oakland GM Billy Beane in hopes of attaining Rich Harden. The Cubs were looking for starting pitching before division rival Milwaukee snared C.C. Sabathia, and that move made the need slightly more pressing. Still, the A's are only six games out of first and might wait until closer to the deadline to start dealing. The Cubs are also thought to be interested in San Diego's Randy Wolf. |
Who do you think Beane is asking for in return for Harden?
Josh Vitters is a really interesting name... their top pick from last year, hasn't even turned 19 yet, but we don't have too many 3B prospects. He's had some hand injury all year, so he hasn't played much.
Felix Pie is another interesting prized Cubs prospect who they've shuttled back and forth between the majors and minors, but still has amazing power/speed tools.
In terms of pitching, Samardzija, the former WR could be interesting. Another guy is Rich Hill, who after a breakout 2007 campaign suddenly can't find the plate even back in the minors. They also don't seem too sure that they want Sean Marshall or Sean Gallagher to be a part of their future rotation.
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Pie and Rich Hill aren't good.
I said it in the other thread, but I’d be okay with a Blanton to Cubs for Vitters, Murton, and Samardzija type of deal.
Of course, the Cubs wouldn't
That’s their only top flight prospect and another of their top 10 (plus Murton). I don’t think Blanton could command that
MikeV seems to shill for two guys around here,
and I want to say that I’m completely with you on one of them.
I definitely want Matt Murton included in any deal for Harden.
"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 7, 2008 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
They don't want Blanton
I don’t think they want Blanton – they have some guys who can be steady back of the rotation guys in Gallagher and Marshall. They want someone who’s gonna go out there and dominate, giving them three legitimate front of the rotation guys in Zambrano, Harden and to a lesser extent, Lilly to keep pace with the Brew Crew marching out Sabathia and Ben Sheets.
Dempster > Lilly
At least this year. Lilly has been pretty awful, while Dempster has been phenomenal, especially at home.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 7, 2008 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Dempster was very Duchsherer like
Although he’s tailed off some.
Maybe every team should just turn all their setup men into starters.
he is dominating of late
he struggled to open the season, but he’s been striking out guys like crazy lately
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
Pie is a good buy-low candidate
He’s been handled terribly by the Cubs, who’ve done everything possible to avoid giving him a starting job.
If you’re selling low on Blanton (something I don’t advocate anyway), the least you can do is get some upside in return.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
My biggest frustration with this site is wading through the incredible trade rumors people have no shame in proposing. Compare this haul to what we just got for Harden AND Gaudin, both of whom I like(d) more than Blanton.
by Mark Borgschulte on Jul 8, 2008 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think the Cubs have the prospects to get Harden
Would they give up their 4 or 5 top prospects (Pie and Patterson are not top prospects)? That’s what it should take, and even then I’d be nervous about it because their system is bad and they’re notorious for overhyping crappy toolsy guys who can’t really play.
Rich Hill is 28 years old and has been just mediocre in the NL. No thanks.
Vitters would be a nice start. Now give me 3 more guys on his quality level and there might be a deal. This isn’t like the Sabathia trade. The A’s don’t have to move Harden.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 7, 2008 9:27 AM PDT reply actions
Beane could bring in a third party to add the prospects necessary to get it done
What pleases me about this development is that the article definitely gives the sense that it’s the Cubs pursuing Harden, not Beane calling around and shopping him.
He's a very personable, sweet, nice chimp. He's not going to be aggressive unless he's provoked. @('.')@
Which means Beane can set his price high
I’m really not worried though. Beane won’t sell Harden for pennies on the dollar. There’s just no need for that since they have him next year, too. Beane is in a great position here.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 7, 2008 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
precisely
I am 100% in favor of trading Harden if Beane’s price is met.
Now, where exactly Beane is setting the bar … no one knows. And there’s certainly the possibility that he could set it too high (as he apparently may have last year with Blanton).
He's a very personable, sweet, nice chimp. He's not going to be aggressive unless he's provoked. @('.')@
he could also set it too low
We would know this had happened if the A’s were to miss the playoffs by 3 games or less, Harden had a great second half for somebody else, and the prospects the A’s gpt in return turned out to be more like the Hudson package than the Mulder one.
Brainless Automaton #439
true
... arousing men to burst the chains under which monkeyish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves ... @('.')@
It's pretty ironic that the Cubs, of all teams,
would seek out someone who is comparable to Mark Prior and Kerry Wood.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
More to the point
Harden would probably have a heart attack if traded there.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
And then try to pitch through it.
"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL
haha agreed
I was surprised to see the Cubs wanting to trade for Harden!
It would be ironic, though, if Harden went to Chicago and never missed another start.
Believe you me...
...many Cubs fans are well aware of this very apt comparison and are approaching any trade for Harden with a (ahem) healthy amount of skepticism.
Nanika Ga Okoru!
IF they want Harden:
I’d want Pie and Marmol…To start with.
Pride And Poise!!!
by Raymond St. Martin (Saint) on Jul 7, 2008 9:50 AM PDT reply actions
Pie... marmalade... vittles... mutton...
I think I need to have breakfast before checking AN.
There's no textbook for how to treat a geriatric tapir.
Marmol is a stud
but the A’s don’t really need him. They’re well stocked in the bullpen, even in the minor leagues.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I wouldn't mind involving Marmol and spinning him to another team for prospects
It’s been awhile since Billy has made a “Fuckin-A” 3 team deal, hasn’t it?
Pie doesn't interest me
The A’s have a handful of OF prospects I like a lot more. At least. At this point, I’d rather have Danny Putnam. I just don’t see Pie developing. I know he’s young, but I think he’s already been ruined (if there was anything really there to ruin).
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 7, 2008 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
You guys are out of your minds
If you think Rich “the clock’s just ticking until my next injury” Harden is going to command a 4 or 5 player, Dan Haren type deal.
If we could pull in Vitters, Murton, and an interesting pitching prospect (or reclamation project, like Pie) I’d be ecstatic.
And forget about Blanton, he’s as sell-low as they come. He’d be lucky to bring in Murton plus another guy right now.
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
Have to agree - and besides the health issues
Harden is only under contract for 1.5 years.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He's also a much better pitcher than Haren
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 7, 2008 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Better sure, but "much better"?
Haren is a two time all star, and he’s far from finished.
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 7, 2008 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Harden has just as much life left in him
It’s not like his injuries have drained his talent as they have with Prior.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 7, 2008 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Is this a joke?
Even just this season, Haren is 19 pitching runs above average, Harden 9 runs above average.
There is no f’ing way a pitcher with Harden’s injury track record is going to command anything even close to what Haren got, and with good reason. Other GMs are not 9-year-old kids spellbound by Harden’s ability to strike out lots of hitters, they’re business executives trying to build a winning baseball team.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I don't know PT
Everything I read about Harden says that he is a Ace/Cy Young caliber pitcher and that if it were not for injury issues he would be one of the best pitchers in the game. When Haren was being talked about in trade talks, it was said he was a #1/2 type pitcher but never was he talked about as one of the best in all of baseball. His value was centered around his being under team control for three years.
Now I am not saying that just because it is written it is true, but if most media outlets view Harden and Haren that way, then at least some GMs probably feel the same way as well. So while Haren may be pitching better so far this season, there is still a very real perception that a healthy Harden is a better pitcher.
"if it were not for injury issues"
Which is, um, precisely what PT identified as the major drag on Harden’s value.
He's a very personable, sweet, nice chimp. He's not going to be aggressive unless he's provoked. @('.')@
I agree with that
but in response to the post of “He is also a much better pitcher then Haren” PT responded by saying “Is this a joke?” (this was mostly what I was responding to).
I largely agree with PT that his injury history should make his value much less then Haren’s. However, I think it is important to point out that there is a general perception in baseball that Harden is a much better pitcher (when healthy) then Haren. We only need one desperate GM to decide that Harden is indeed healthy to get a haul in the neighborhood of what we got for Haren.
It is perversely illogical to talk about pitchers
while intentionally eliding the single factor that, more than anything else (once you’ve screened out guys who obviously have no business pitching in MLB), determines what a pitcher’s value is—his injury history.
I really don’t give a damn whether his tools match up favorably with Haren’s or not. The only relevant question is whether he has a better Major League Baseball contract from a value standpoint, and it’s not even close. Haren’s contract is worth probably twice what Harden’s is, and their trade values will be similar.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I absolutely believe that you would be a better GM than most of the guys running teams
Which is why I think Beane could get, at the very least, equal value to what he got for Haren.
I just have very little respect for the job most of the guys running teams do.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 7, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
There are a lot of bright folks running baseball teams,
but the guy running the Cubs is not exactly one of them.
No way any smart GM gives up Vitters, Murton, and Pie for an unnecessary gamble on Rich Harden. PT is super right about that. However, Jim Hendry might just be dumb enough to do it; He has to keep up with the Joneses Brewers.
"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 7, 2008 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I think that's a narrow view of everything a GM does
True, the GM doesn’t run business operations like they used to in the old days, but it’s still a lot more than just making trade and draft decisions. You really do have to have overall corporate management skills.
Just because someone here in the blogosphere is smarter about trade decisions doesn’t mean he’d be a better GM.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
you mean, even if PT was GM ...
... I still might not get my free kraut?
... arousing men to burst the chains under which monkeyish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves ... @('.')@
Actually, I think what he's saying
is that if I was GM, you might GET it.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
... and thereby blow the discretionary budget, and scotch the A's chance at signing highly touted Icelandic prospect Arne Arnesdottir?
I don’t think so.
... arousing men to burst the chains under which monkeyish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves ... @('.')@
I think PT would be better than most GMs at all the baseball-related stuff
But you’re right that there’s other aspects to the job. But there are plenty of GMs who make really, really dumb moves on a regular basis. That tells me that Beane can get a whole lot for Harden regardless of that injury history.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 8, 2008 12:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Err, try taking a look
at some of the “trade records” of injury prone pitchers. Especially guys with Harden’s injury record.
Name me one instance in the last few years, of a GM trading a Haren like package, for a pitcher like Harden.
If anything, GM’s value health record, durability, more than PT. It’s why guys like Suppan, Silva, et all, can get $10+M a year contracts.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Exactly what I was thinking
Plus, the Cubs and Cards just got gauntlets thrown at their feet. A Suppan or Silva isn’t they way they want to answer.
That wasn't a Haren-like package
The Mulder package was probably half as good (at the time) as the Haren package. Maybe less than half. Which kind of proves my point.
The A’s would be doing well to get half of the Haren package, because while Harden is arguably better than Mulder, he’s unarguably more injury prone than Mulder was.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Mark Mulder had Harden
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Mark Mulder had Harden
health record? Really?
Even in his last year with the A’s, 2005, before the trade, with the hip injury, he still pitched 225 IP. The season before that, 2004, 186 IP. 2003, 207 IP. And so on.
Meanwhile, Harden, in 2007, 25 IP. 2006, 46IP. 2005, 128 IP. The only season in which Harden’s had what can be considered a ful season was in 2004, when he pitched 189 IP. Even this year, when he is healthy, there have been concerns.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
What is your point?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
The point was that a good, but injured/injury prone pitcher
was traded for a solid return, in the form of Mulder. He’d been injured for pretty much the whole second half before he was traded, after being healthy for most of his career.
It was also an offseason deal, which is quite a bit different than making the deal at the deadline. The teams involved in the rumors (Cubs, Cards) pretty much have had their hands forced by the Brewers getting Sabathia.
But if you want to just sit and pick apart the suggestion that Mulder and Harden are both very talented and injury prone pitchers, that’s up to you.
And my point
is that Mulder was NOT an injury prone pitcher.
He’d been injured for pretty much the whole second half before he was traded, after being healthy for most of his career.
THAT IS MY POINT. Harden has a LONG history of various injures. Mulder did NOT.
But, if you want to just sit and snark, instead of having a discussion, that’s up to you.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
I do. It's hot outside and I'm cranky.
I have a game tonight at 5:15 and it’s going to be 104 degrees still.
Sorry. Should we cuddle and still be friends?
That's what AC is for
Sure, let’s cuddle.
I wasn’t looking for an argument or anything. So if my post came off as snarky, or picking apart anything, I apologise.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Mulder's hip injury
was in the 186 IP year (which was 2003).
In his last year with the A’s (2004), though there was obviously something badly wrong in the second half, he was nominally healthy and never missed a start.
"May a nit suck Cajun geese?" wonders Red. No, we see gnu Jack Cust in a yam.
I find it hard to believe that nobody ever made a REDLUM joke
I generally bemoan the profusion of Mr Sabermetric Sporks in the Scrabble ranks who don't know the meaning or usage of 50% of the words they use. -monkeyball
and they SHOULD value health/durability that highly
imagine where the Giants would be without their curveball wielding ace.
It is perversely illogical to talk about pitchers
while intentionally eliding the single factor that, more than anything else (once you’ve screened out guys who obviously have no business pitching in MLB), determines what a pitcher’s value is—his injury history.
I really don’t give a damn whether his tools match up favorably with Haren’s or not. The only relevant question is whether he has a better Major League Baseball contract from a value standpoint, and it’s not even close. Haren’s contract is worth probably twice what Harden’s is, and their trade values will be similar.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
AN has been having some issues today...
The server just winked out for about 5 minutes there, prompting the double post.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Don't spread lies
Admit that you were just so floored by the idea that people were comparing Harden to Haren that, in your haste to let them know how wrong they were, you clicked “post” a bunch of times and got it in there twice.
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on Jul 7, 2008 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Busted
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Reminds me of the 19th century actor
who was so enamored with his abilities, he would often repeat a scene in the middle of the play if he decided that it come off particularly well…
"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer
by One won lost won on Jul 7, 2008 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with this assessment
Of course, however, this assumes that all GMs are competent enough to think rationally about Rich Harden. And that’s probably not the case. And by “not the case,” I mean Bill Bavasi.
In all seriousness, though, the Brewers picking up Sabathia and the general “OhJesusOhNoOhJesusOhNo” sentiment permeating the Cubs organization might prompt Hendry to make a very unwise move.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
It's actually quite similar to the reaction
St. Louis had to watching the Braves land Tim Hudson. And man did they overpay for Mulder!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
At the time it didn't feel like such a dramatic overpay
Since Mulder never pitched, it feels like a blowout.
Even had Mulder stayed healthy - and the signs
were already there that he wasn’t – Haren was considered a #2 starter in the making and Barton one of the minor league’s very best hitting prospects at age 19. And Calero had a very cool name.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Never ever undervalue
a cool name.
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on Jul 7, 2008 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Did Shooter Hunt get signed?
(Or was is Hunter Shoot?)
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
Twins took him at pick 31
Don’t know if he’s signed or not…
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Shooter
They just signed him this week. So the Twins finally have someone who can match up with Kiko Calero, namewise.
Damn. That's it.
Anyone want a prospect with a name cooler than Kiko?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Perhaps the A's can get Donald Veal in the Harden package
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I agree with you in theory
but in actual practice how many times have we seen GMs give huge contracts to free agents that have been barely useful their whole careers and then have one big year and suddenly they get big money (I am looking at you Gary Matthews Jr).
Why wouldn’t these types of GMs also convince themselves that “Hey, Harden might have been injury prone in the past, but he has been pretty healthy this year.” I am not saying that is smart, but it is not particularly far fetched based on other decision we have seen made.
Here's the problem with this thinking:
Those types of GMs tend to be idiots who have depleted farm systems (see: Wade, Bavasi, etc). A fool and his prospects are soon parted.
And as a result, most of them aren’t in play for Harden because they haven’t got anyone who would cut the mustard. The deep systems are mostly run by guys who know what they’re doing.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
True
However, Kruk made exactly this perversely illogical point on ESPN a couple minutes ago (and emphasized how his team felt when there was no deadline trade one year). If these become the talking points, I could see a GM saying “screw it” and giving us Vitters/Pie/Hill/Murton or Rasmus et al.
It probably comes down to whether the GM’s job is more threatened by not making a move and missing the playoffs or making a move that doesn’t pan out.
Maybe other gm's take into account..
the injury bug in Oakland and possibly relate that to an inept training staff. We do have what seems like more injurys than most. Is it possible that some GM’s feel they can change a players injury frequency, hence creating the ace/ cy young potential in Harden? Could this be a case of percieved value vs actual and if so wouldn’t Harden seem like a steal in a three to four player swap? God I wish theory meant truth!!!
The first rule of Oakland is - you do not talk about injuries. The second rule of Oakland is - you DO NOT talk about trainers." - Larry Davis
I sure hope so
since the last time someone said “We can fix [player] in ten minutes”, they traded Scott Kazmir for him.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Out of your mind if you think some will, possibly
but I don’t think I’m out of my mind if I’d set his value in the terms of the 4/5 players Haren got us. That’s a price I’d set for Harden right now and if no one takes me up on it, I keep him. There’s no reason for us to trade him so we can set the price and we’d be absolutely foolish to accept less even if it would take someone who’s absolutely insane to actually accept those terms. We’ve seen enough really lopsided deals made around the trade deadline from teams desperate to make the post season and if no team like that exists, we have an ace quality pitcher available to trade in the off-season or an ace quality pitcher next year. This isn’t a trade that has to be made.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
I don't like this.
First of all, the door for playoff opportunities doesn’t come around very often. We’re only six games out of the west with plenty of games left against the Angels, and this whole first half has been littered with injuries. We even have more wins than the 2006 team on July 7th. I think it would be awful to get rid of Harden at this point. The guy is one of a kind. If we could actually make it to the playoffs the combo of Harden/Duke could carry us a long way.
I would hate to see Harden go for a couple Batronesque guys who we'd be complaining about two years when they just are entering the big leagues and "struggling to make the adjustment." You can't keep trading away your best players, and hoping the prospects turn out, because it just becomes and endless cycle of waiting for the guys to come around. If we're not careful and get stuck in the endless rebuilding cycle we're going to end up like the Royals, Pirates, Rockies, and Tigers of the last decade.What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
Not sure why that box appeared.
What I was trying to say is that I would hate to see Harden go for a couple Bartonesque guys who we’d be complaining about here on AN in two years as they “struggle to adjust” to MLB pitching. Which then continues to push back our competitive years. You have to be careful with the rebuilding because if you keep trading away your best guys you’ll end up like the Royals, Pirates, Rockies, Rays, and Brewers of the last decade.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
Look where the Rays and Brewers are now...
Although yes, a lot of their key guys were drafted, they both have amazing cores of young, cheap talent with a great farm system to keep the teams strong for years. The Rays are gonna be good for a long time… unless the Yankees steal all their players…
I was wondering what "Batronesque" meant.
If it’s not a word, it should be.
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 7, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Better than "Padronesque"
i.e. a steroid-taking player who struggles in A-ball…
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Better than "Vladimirneski"
i.e., a fictional character offed by our hero before his humanizing amnesia
He's a very personable, sweet, nice chimp. He's not going to be aggressive unless he's provoked. @('.')@
Better than "Vladimirilyichesque"
i.e. one who tends toward overthrowing the state and establishing a Communist regime.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Better than "Lebowsque"
Full circle!
He's a very personable, sweet, nice chimp. He's not going to be aggressive unless he's provoked. @('.')@
Shut the F up, Joey.
You’re out of your element.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jul 7, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
So, you'd rather NOT have young players with talent
so that you won’t have to complain about them in two years…?
That sounds like an excellent strategy. Hey, why not build a roster so bad that no one could possibly have expectations of it doing well? It’s working out pretty well for the Giants, amirite?
BTW, if this is a “playoff opportunity,” it absolutely comes around very often. 16 out of 30 teams are within 6 games of a playoff spot at this point.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I'd rather not have...
one competitive season out of ten. We already have plenty of young players.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
Luckily for you
We won’t have to worry about one competitive season out of ten, whether we have Harden or not.
Playoff opportunities like those of the 2008 Oakland Athletics come around all the time. In fact, going back to 1998, the only year we didn’t have an opportunity at least this good was 2007 and 1998.
We’ve been playing the “if only we we were healthy” game for what seems like ages now. I mean seriously, who are we waiting on to get healthy for the second half? Thomas? Chavez? Crosby? We’ve already had a healthy Harden and healthy Duke most of the season.
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on Jul 7, 2008 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions
computers gave us Batron
< / Joe Morgan >
He's a very personable, sweet, nice chimp. He's not going to be aggressive unless he's provoked. @('.')@
Get you head out of your Batron and watch a damn game!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 7, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Batron down the hatches!
"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 7, 2008 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Get a sip of this Batron
and it’s gonna be on…
Green Hulk Fists
by oaklandSMASH on Jul 8, 2008 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions
You know which team thought that way?
The Giants
The Giants would always say “Well were only six games out, we shouldn’t trade Jason Schmidt.” and look where it got them.
The question you need to ask yourself is “With the A’s current offensive lineup for at least the next month, can the A’s make up six games in the standing?”
The answer is it’s possible, but not very likely.
Now Harden may be a great talent, but the A’s already have another Ace in Duke, and they have four or five guys that could develop into the next Haren/Harden in GoGon, Anderson, Cahill, DLS and Inoa. If a team comes along and offers 3 to 4 good prospects for Harden, you have to take it.
Sometimes life will strike you out on a curve ball and the only choice you have is to flip off the umpire and walk to first base anyway.
by Threepwood XX on Jul 7, 2008 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Keep Harden and give him an extension.
Unlike the Giants we already have a lineup for the future with multiple options:
C: Suzuki/Powell
1B: Barton
2B: Ellis/Petit/Weeks
SS: Crosby/Petit/Pennington
3B: Guzman
OF: Gonzalez, Sweeney, Buck, Cunningham
When does the rebuilding stop? If we get more guys that are 2-3 years out, that just sets us a year back from what we are doing now.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
How noble of you to "give" him an extension
You do realize that he has to agree to it, right? And that he’s not likely to do so for less than a king’s ransom—money that could be better spent on a hitter (or indeed any player who isn’t likely to miss 2/3 of a given season)?
This “slippery slope” argument against rebuilding is one of the worst I’ve seen. It makes no sense whatsoever. The rebuilding stops when you have a good team where the best players aren’t about to frigging leave in free agency, that’s when. It’s not some cosmic inertial force that can’t be stopped once it gets moving.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
COSMIC INERTIA: THE REBUILDENING
Should we get Shyamalan, Bay, or Emmerich?
He's a very personable, sweet, nice chimp. He's not going to be aggressive unless he's provoked. @('.')@
From the posts I've seen at AN over the past couple of years
The rebuilding would NEVER stop. Had Billy Beane been listening to the rebuilders instead of the restockers, the A’s would have sucked every year for the past few years.
The window for success these days, for small market clubs, is very tiny. Figure it takes a year to get adjusted, maybe two years, then a team only has control for the next four. If the team wants value back, the player must be traded two seasons before the end of the control. Usually, not all the prospects pan out, and players reach their peaks at different times in their careers. In other words, for a team to really be good, with several players at peak performance, a lot of things have to go right.
The result is that no matter how many prospects you have, if you can’t get extensions, or you don’t want to wait for draft picks, you’ll have a hard time finding the one or two years of peak performance for the whole team—and when it happens, the team will probably be broken up almost immediately, i.e. the Marlins.
I like the idea of restocking and then going for it, even if the odds of reaching the playofs aren’t always the brightest. I say —dump Embree & Foulke and a couple of relievers, and maybe Barton or Gaudin. Try to fill the gaps with better hitters, and go for it. Don’t give away your best prospects either. But be cautiously optimistic. I don’t trade Harden during this season -- unless, of course, a GM is really really stupid, in which case I try to get back one real hitter who can help immediately, along with a couple of grade A prospects.
But I don’t give up, a la Paul Thomas. I have season tickets and I want to see a competitive team this year, and every year. I don’t have the money or time to waste on bullshit bad teams, and I’m too old to wait twenty years for the stars to be in perfect alignment for one or two consecutive seasons.
Alright, alright, you've got me
I AM a Second-Placenik! I’ll name names! Just for God’s sake don’t tell the press!
Salb and monkeyball are the leaders of a secret defeatist cell! They recruited me and brainwashed me into believing that the RiverCats pennant race is really more important than the A’s. It’s not my fauuuuuuult!
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
whew!
I had been laboring under the impression you were a Second-Podsednik.
... arousing men to burst the chains under which monkeyish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves ... @('.')@
I met the Second Podsnednik...
...in Sacramento, picking up some BBQ before a RiverCats game a couple of years ago.
Wait… I think I’ve said too much…
"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 7, 2008 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
"The window for success these days, for small market clubs, is very tiny"
Which, I guess, explains why the A’s have been in contention 9 out of the last 10 years.
... arousing men to burst the chains under which monkeyish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves ... @('.')@
The A's are the Exception
Thank you, Billy Beane.
As opposed to the Marlins, Rays, Brewers, Royals, Pirates, Reds, Rockies, Twins. The Twins have done a better job than the other small market clubs (other than the A’s) but thank goodness Billy Beane doesn’t listen to Monkeyball or Paul Thomas.
Hunh?
Identify, please, anything that I or PT have ever posted advocating that Beane take either of the approaches you outlined (the permanent KC A’s-as-farm-team-for-the-Yankees, or the Marlins bulimic franchise model).
... arousing men to burst the chains under which monkeyish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves ... @('.')@
It's a tiny window,
but they keep the sill lubed with bacon grease, so people get in and out of it okay enough.
"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 7, 2008 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions
People taste much better slathered with bacon grease
... arousing men to burst the chains under which monkeyish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves ... @('.')@
Grease me up, woman!
I generally bemoan the profusion of Mr Sabermetric Sporks in the Scrabble ranks who don't know the meaning or usage of 50% of the words they use. -monkeyball
Actually
That’s a good analogy to the way Beane works.
And I’m really tired of people who say that if we get one more player, we’ll fall 3.45 games behind as opposed to 4.76 games behind. Maybe if we played out the same season five hundred times, those choices would be right. But we get to play out the season once, and luck plays enough of a hand one way or the other that we can make up those 3.1417 games with the right bounce. Easy as pi.
Would it help if instead of saying that,
I said “You’re pretty close to as likely to make the playoffs without [insert mediocre/overpriced trade target here] as with him”?
That’s basically what people like me are saying. If funny bounces can get you from 5 games back, well, they can get you from 6 games back too. Is it the smart bet to count on that happening? Nope. They could just as well bounce you to a 12-game deficit.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Thanks for that answer
My response is this: I buy season tickets. i’ve been doing it for over a quarter century. That’s a lot of money, and a lot of time going to games. I want to see a team that’s competitive in September. Frankly, I don’t care if statistics tell me they’ll fall a couple games short. Sometimes those statistics predict accurately, sometimes they don’t.
At this point, the A’s are a marginal contender. If they can stay in there, as Nico suggests, then when Thomas comes back, they can put on a run, particularly if they add a hitter. If Billy can pull a rabbit out of a hat, and pick up someone for Gaudin, or even for Daric Barton (who likely won’t pull it together this year but still has some credibility as a prospect), or better yet for Embree and/or Foulke and/or Andrew Brown or Jerry Blevins, then I say go for it.
I have ten games left (because of all the road trips) after the next two nights. That’s $280 worth of tickets. I want at least more than half of those games to be meaningful, even if, in the end, the team does fall short. This was supposed to be a rebuilding year, but it’s more than that. I’d love to keep it that way. It’s my time and my money at stake.
OK, but if you're going the "naked self-interest" route
while it makes your position understandable, it doesn’t make it very convincing to people with different interests…
I mean, it’s in my self-interest to have the team be great in 2011, when I emerge from my law school rabbit hole and (hopefully, maybe) have a buck or two. So from that point of view, it’s Grade A fire sale time, baby. Street, Blanton, Gaudin, Duke, Harden, Crosby, Chavez, Embree—everything must go.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
That's pretty naked right there
Let’s see how happy you are in 2012 with some kid on AN suggests a grade-A fire sale of all the players you love so that your season tickets, which put you back three grand when you’re still paying off law school debt, are pretty worthless in terms of excitement in order that the 2016 team can be really really good.
The Beane Strategy
Near as I can figure out, is to cut between both of our interests and create teams that are competitive as many years as he can. The reason he dumped Haren and Swisher is because with those two, assuming a continuation of injuries (if you remember, Gaudin was the final straw), the team was likely to not be competitive in 2008, therefore it made no sense to stay the course. Might as well take a chance because both ways, 2008 was a lost year. At least after the trades, things might turn around quickly. Which they did. Having a fire sale at this point would lose me, and unless the trade was really really smart, could lose you too.
The above is what is known in philosophy classes as
a reductio ad absurdum argument. I don’t actually believe the team should have a total fire sale. I’m just pointing out the logical extension of the principle that “I want the A’s to win most when I can watch them most.”
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Excuse me
Why are you so fucking condescending? I have a graduate degree in philosophy. And it’s not a reductio ad absurdum argument you’re presenting. It’s actually logical, based on all of your other arguments that I’ve read. You’re never looking to the present, always that future. I suspect your comment about 2012 is really what you’re about.
If you think that a simple descriptive statement is condescending
then I can’t help you, nor is there any hope for a productive discussion between us. The problem is on your end, not mine.
There’s certainly no hope if you think I’m a fucking liar, which is essentially what you just called me.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Wow
For someone who attacks so many people on a consistent basis, you’re pretty touchy yourself. I never called you a liar. But when you’re using hyperbole that can be easily misinterpreted, you wind up talking out of both sides of your mouth.
More to the point, are you so unaware of your own behavior that you can’t see when you’re being condescending, or when you’re fucking with other people’s heads or when you’re just being outright nasty?
You expect to be a lawyer? Good luck.
I think we can skip the lectures, thanks
I really don’t give a shit what you think about me. At all. Don’t waste your time.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
That last sentence of mine was unfair
...and I apologize for it.
A quick point though, that comes from interviewing writers for the past thirty years: When a statement in writing is misinterpreted, the fault lies with the writer, not the reader. It’s a lack of clarity (unless wilfully misinterpreted, for spite, which is a common feature of FoxNews punditry), and generally the phrases “let me clarify,” or “sorry if I wasn’t clear” suffice. Answers that throw around latin phrases, with explanations for the obtuse, sound condescending, even if they weren’t intended to be.
You think that's what set me off?
What set me off is when you claimed I believed something that I had just said I didn’t.
There is basically one way to instantly get me f’ing pissed at you, and that’s to imply that I’m lying or being disingenuous. I just don’t do it. My integrity is deeply important to me. I will not tolerate having it questioned by some random internet dude.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Okay
I apologize. It sounded like you were being disingenuous. In fact, you were being, as I say, unclear. Big difference.
I’m not a random internet dude. This is my website: www.bookwaves.com
Alright
I accept the apology. I hope we can end this subthread at this point. I will not go after you personally on other subthreads (though if you make an argument, I’m not saying I won’t rebut it). I hope you will reciprocate.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
We had a contract for cage fighting. We were deceived.
... arousing men to burst the chains under which monkeyish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves ... @('.')@
Jesus, that explains it
You’re my evil twin.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
Momentum is also a real thing
The acquisitions of Dye and Durham jumpstarted the team and gave it a feeling of “we’re in this thing”. It’s all about “hanging around” until you get hot, they get cold, or injuries suddenly change the field.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
PT you rock!
I don’t even need to see the signature anymore. I can tell your comments usually by the header, no need to scroll. Truly you have a dizzying intellect! Carefull what ye say on this BLOG lest ye be judged!
The first rule of Oakland is - you do not talk about injuries. The second rule of Oakland is - you DO NOT talk about trainers." - Larry Davis
Wait!!??
Harden is going to take 12+ million a year to sign—if healthy.
You want to turn down 3 to 4 good prospects for a guy that if he doesn’t break down before we sign that extension, he’ll sure as hell break down after it and take that 12 million a year with him. And that’s not even taking into account that have at least five prospects that could take Harden’s place.
You need to let go of the crow’s nest man, the rest of ship has sunk and there is nothing you can do about it.
Also, the A’s need offense, and if you think Barton/Suzuki/Powel/Petit/Pennington/Cunningham/Crosby are going to give you above average healthy offense, you are mistaken. If our lineup is composed of those people, it will be a while before the A’s get to the playoffs again.
Sometimes life will strike you out on a curve ball and the only choice you have is to flip off the umpire and walk to first base anyway.
by Threepwood XX on Jul 7, 2008 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm sorry
But I have to pile on here- this suggestion is nonsense.
Did you even look at that lineup? Of the 14 names you listed above, one maybe two are prospects who are guys we can be any confident about turning into above average hitters. Another is Mark Ellis who is on the wrong side of 30, another is Gregorio Petit who, if he can develop into a starter will do only because of his glove. Pennington, Guzman, and Powell are pretty much non prospects. Weeks we drafted like three weeks ago. Sweeney has no power, Barton has no power, Cunningham has to prove he has power, and who knows what Buck is at this point.
That, my friend, is a bad lineup. If that’s the team we’re fielding in 2010, even a healthy Rich Harden ain’t saving us.
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on Jul 7, 2008 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions
What if we bat Gonzalez 3rd, 5th, and 6th?
Please?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
HUH?
If I’m not mistaken this is the future lineup Beane built predominately through last offseason’s trades. I thought this was supposed to be a rebuilding year for an 09-11 run? Now these guys are all of a sudden not good enough to contend in the future without some mid level prospects we get from Harden??? MLB rumors even said the Cubs don’t have anyone of the quality of players we got from Arizona. I’d hate to lose Harden for something unproven, and more than a year or two from being worthwhile on an MLB roster.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
I'll go Infocom InvisiClues style here
1. You notice anything about most of those 13 players Beane traded for last season?
2. Take a look at what position they play.
3. What does that position NOT entail doing?
4. That activity involves a bat.
5. 9 of the 13 players Beane traded for were pitchers.
6. The A’s are going to have to trade developed pitching for hitting to create an above-average lineup.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I had a reply all typed up.
But, hell with it, this works a lot better.
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on Jul 7, 2008 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Classic.
You forgot:
7) This space left blank intentionally.
"I'm going to take a camera crew and march into Billy Beane's office and demand to know why instituting his newfangled cost-saving measures means that the run manufacturing plant had to get shut down." FJM
Interesting
Though I don’t think the umps will let the A’s send 15 players out into the field. On the other hand, if they did, the A’s would definitely win.
Resurrected from the dead:
“I would hate to see Harden go for a couple Batronesque guys who we’d be complaining about two years when they just are entering the big leagues and “struggling to make the adjustment.” You can’t keep trading away your best players, and hoping the prospects turn out, because it just becomes and endless cycle of waiting for the guys to come around. If we’re not careful and get stuck in the endless rebuilding cycle we’re going to end up like the Royals, Pirates, Rockies, and Tigers of the last decade.”
I generally bemoan the profusion of Mr Sabermetric Sporks in the Scrabble ranks who don't know the meaning or usage of 50% of the words they use. -monkeyball
Not a Haren deal, but more than he's worth.
Harden can’t command a Haren-type haul, but timing and desperation will make him more expensive to prospective bidders than his actual value. If the Cubs are going to pull out all the stops to try and win their first World Series in 100 years, it wouldn’t be a bit surprised if they overpaid (significantly) for him.
So it goes.
I'd be thrilled with Vitters, Pie and Hill
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 7, 2008 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
I like that idea.
Squash Cupcakes Now!
"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 7, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions
That's very true.
They might not even have the pieces to pay market value. Just sayin’, Harden is not going to be a value-friendly addition to whatever team comes calling.
So it goes.
Murton
has always been a solid outfielder in Chicago, and in my opinion, the Cubs have always undervalued him. I don’t think it would take much to try Murton from them.
by VORP is too nerdy on Jul 7, 2008 12:27 PM PDT reply actions
We could definitely get Murton,
but I don’t think that’s a good enough piece for Harden. I’m worried about getting more “ok” slight upgrades at positions where we already have players. Either run with the OF we have, or go get someone special who can be a building block along with Gonzalez.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The A's could probably get Murton for Alan Embree
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Funny, that's exactly what I was thinking -
I would trade Embree for Murton, in one of those low-key Perry for Hannahan types of deals, but I’m not interested in Murton as part of a trade for someone like Harden.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Good point
Piniella’s been whining about not having enough lefties in the pen.
A Three Way Deal is probably the way to go.
But who would be the third team?
The Devil Rays have prospects, but they could just as much trade for Harden, Duchscherer or Street themselves with out needing a third team. The Dodgers could do it, but they have the same needs as we do it seems: Power and Offense. The Cubs probably wouldn’t deal with the Cardinals.
facepalm.jpg
That's the one problem I see with trading Harden
There doesn’t seem to be the perfect partner around.
I think our best case scenario would be if the Cardinals decided to make Rasmus available for Harden.
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on Jul 7, 2008 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
if we do get that guy from the Cards ...
... even when he makes a Custian flub in the outfield, we’ll still love him.
He's a very personable, sweet, nice chimp. He's not going to be aggressive unless he's provoked. @('.')@
Either this is a joke I'm not getting,
or you’re confusing Rasmus with Chris Duncan.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I have overestimated your erudition!
He's a very personable, sweet, nice chimp. He's not going to be aggressive unless he's provoked. @('.')@
Ouch
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
yeah, I think I pulled something stretching for that one
... arousing men to burst the chains under which monkeyish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves ... @('.')@
That would be such a steal for you guys.
I would dread that trade.
by JI on Jul 7, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
OK, how about my proposal from the other thread?
Brian Anderson, Jess Todd and Jon Jay?
For reference, that’s the #3 and #10 guys (according to BA) plus a guy outside the top 10.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Sign me up
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on Jul 7, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I make the Harden deal if
We get Lee, Marmol & Fukudome in return. We can even throw in Foulke.
Come on, I don’t see a prize prospect in their system like Arizona had in Car Gon. Nor do I see the potential talent like Eveland and Smith that Arizona had. Pie hasn’t shown much in the pro’s, Murton is more of a throw in than anything else.
I think Harden to the Cubs is a long shot.
Wha...?
That trade would make the Cubs worse—both for this season and for the forseeable future.
When you’re proposing trades, it helps if they actually have a non-zero percentage chance of helping both teams.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I think he was kidding...
... at least, I’m hoping.
I read up on that Vitters kid, and while Baseball America almost whipped me into a baseball fanboy frenzy of optimism, I’ve never seen such high regard by BA for a kid who had 51 pro ABs at the time of the writing.
Still other than Vitters, I was pretty underwhelmed by what the rest of the system has to offer. So, I agree with HRH’s overall point.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
My problem with Vitters
Even if he is that good, he won’t be ready until years after our “target date” for this rebuilding. I’d much prefer someone substantially closer to MLB (even if the price is less of a ceiling)
Well, BA sez his bat will be MLB-ready before Aramis Ramirez's contract runs out in 2011
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
But it has to be a 3-way including StL so we can get Pujols too.
by green star oakland on Jul 7, 2008 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Most 3-ways involve poo holes
A little plumbing! Got to plumb! Plumb the depths! The depths of hell! - Larry David, CYE
by Swooney's Left Foot on Jul 7, 2008 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions
At the risk of perpetuating this
non-family-blog-appropriate line of thought, I would argue that most three-ways don’t involve poo holes.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
Note to self...
cancel 3 way scheduled for Thursday at 3 pm. Must figure out what does involve Pujols.
I'm not a big wine guy... Where do you grow the BEER?
YMMV
A little plumbing! Got to plumb! Plumb the depths! The depths of hell! - Larry David, CYE
by Swooney's Left Foot on Jul 7, 2008 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions
do this cards deal!!
This is from a poster over at Northsidebaseball.com message board, and his email from Jason Churchill from http://prospectinsider.com/. He has claims to have some Cubs sources, and this is what he had to say.
Hendry wants Harden, but they have ZERO talent that Oakland likes. A Third team would probably have to be involved.
And Harden IS available. I am hearing STL might be willing to send Rasmus+Anderson and another player to Oakland to get him.
Burnett isn’t likely to be traded anyway. Riccardi is trying to save his job.
The Cubs should be hardest after Erik Bedard, and three other names I expect teams to seriously consider dangling…
Tim Hudson: ATL is fading fast and this is exactly the kind of trade Schuerholz made famous in Atlanta. Wren has the same philosophy. Teixeira will get shopped as well, but trading Hudson makes a ton of sense, and he’d fit nicely in Chicago.
Aaron Harang, Cincinnati: Jocketty did the same thing with Bottenfield years ago and landed JiM Edmonds.
Joe Blanton, Oakland: A perfect for the Cubs, and might be affordable for them in terms of return talent. He’s not a 1-2, neither is Hudson nor Harang, but all three would be great fits and wouldn’t necessarily cost the moon, which they don’t have to offer.
BTW, I saw Josh Vitters in Everett last week—He’s good. If he stays healthy, he’s a right-handed Joe Mauer with 25 homer power.
Jason
Jason A. Churchill
Rasmus, Anderson and a third guy?
Oh please be true please be true please be true please be true…
I would fall out of my chair in some combination of surprise and delight if the A’s got that package for Harden.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
That's better than anything the Cubs could offer...
"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 7, 2008 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Beane can't just call up St. Louis
and ask “Would you really do Rasmus et al?” in an incredulous tone of voice.
That sort of thing tends to make people realize that they’re going down the primrose path.
I imagine it’s an internal debate right now in the Cardinals org over how much to offer. Eventually one faction or another will win, they’ll make the call, and Beane will accept or decline the offer.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Hence me saying "on offer"
As in “has been offered to Beane.
I imagine you’re right, and that the Cards are trying to figure out if they need a trade (or if a trade will help enough). As such, they have not yet offered any deal like Rasmus/Anderson/+1.
Yes, this is correct
I very much doubt the Cardinals have gone beyond generalities (like calling Oakland and asking if they should even bother developing a proposal).
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
You think them getting Harden would HELP the Cubs?
Well, that’s a radical position. Even I’m not THAT pessimistic about his health.
(Actually, I’m assuming you just misunderstood here. There’s no way a 3-way deal works out with those two. I was talking about a straight deal with the Cardinals.)
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Hudson would be worth more than the Cubs could offer and so would Harang in my estimation.
You may not think of either as a number one, but either would be a number two for the cubbies. Can’t see it happening.
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagines such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Jul 7, 2008 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
You guys
Are really, really, overstating Harden’s trade value. Vitters, Pie, Murton—if Beane’s lucky. I don’t think Harden’s going anywhere. Beane’s (and all of your) asking price (s) is way too high.
Maybe not
But we’re the ones with the leverage after the CC deal. If Harden goes to the Cubs, they’re the clear #1 team in the NL again. If he goes to the Cards, it’s a tough 3 way battle for the division.
If that isn’t worth mortgaging a little future for I don’t know what is.
I agree
Harden is a pretty hot commodity. But you’re not going to get the CC Sabathia deal for a guy whose arm might fall off at any moment. I say take the Cubs’ best offer. I don’t see the A’s catching the Angels, and there’s no way they pull the wild card.
But that's just it
If we don’t get the deal we want, we can just hold on to him and do this all again next year (unless our rookies have improved to the point where we want to keep him)
Only problem is
Harden’s actually healthy this year. No telling if you’ll have the same chance next year.
Or this year.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Too bad Kendal is no longer with the cubs, what
an opportunity to get him back in some package.
alaska A
How about a three-way with Chicago and Atlanta
that nets us Kendall and Kotsay. Heck, we’ll throw in Rhodes and he doesn’t even pitch for us anymore!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
add rincon, embree sucks
i’m sure t-long is in some independent leagues somewhere
by Asfan4ever723 on Jul 7, 2008 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
or billy mcmillon
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
Value depends on a lot of factors.
If you’re a buyer at this point of the season, value depends on the impact what you’re getting will have in the next 70 or so games. This is how Jeff Bagwell trades get made.
Rich Harden is far and away the most valuable remaining pitching commodity on the market, for what he’s capable of doing for the next 70 or so games—never mind that he has an injury-checkered past, and isn’t under contract past next year. He will bring an exceptional return on investment, because he’s wanted to fill an immediate and temporary need, which makes the long-term implications of the deal for the acquiring club far less important.
So it goes.
Shop Harden to both the Cubs and the Cards
Start a bidding war, drive up the price, reap the benefits.
"We were s--, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
What?
Why would we want to trade Rich Harden? Isn’t he perfect for us? He’s top-shelf, ace talent and he’s a bargain contract through 2009. Rich Harden in 2009 might = Frank Thomas in 2006: top shelf talent, bargain contract, undervalued around baseball for injuries. Besides isn’t Billy Beane always searching for undervalued talent, unconventional gems? Isn’t that what he’s got with Harden? Isn’t that what Moneyball was all about?
And for crissakes look at our record – look at our young talent. Can’t we realistically suppose we’ll be contending for the playoffs in 2009? Why would we want to trade a potential 2009 Cy Young winner, bargain contract for ANYONE? Let alone mediocre talent. Isn’t hanging on to Harden the type of low-risk, high-reward decision Billy Beane is known for? Am I missing something here? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills!
Maybe the crazy pills cause amnesia
Harden has been on the DL 6 times in the last 4 years. Trade him before #7.
A little plumbing! Got to plumb! Plumb the depths! The depths of hell! - Larry David, CYE
by Swooney's Left Foot on Jul 7, 2008 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions
You're talking about 2006 and 2007...
I’m worried about 2009. Let’s say we keep Harden: worst case scenario, his arm falls off, we slide Gaudin into the rotation… and what, we’re not stuck with Rich Hill or Felix Pie? You call that risky?
Here’s a real nightmare: we trade Harden for a bunch of AAAA talent, finish 2009 three games back the Angels, and wonder what could have been. That’s risk.
He's missed more than a month THIS year too
Just because he’s managed 10 or 11 straight starts does not mean he’s past his fragility issues. It just means his value is high enough now that we should move him.
A little plumbing! Got to plumb! Plumb the depths! The depths of hell! - Larry David, CYE
by Swooney's Left Foot on Jul 7, 2008 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Move him for what?
The VALUE here is with Harden. He’s a relative-bargain contract through 2009, he’s got dominant talent, you’re not going to get equal talent in return. And you have Gaudin as insurace for keeping him. There’s no reason for the A’s to make this trade, unless you get a Haren-type deal with power-hitting prospects ready to play now
What exactly do you think Colby Rasmus is?
He ain’t Juan Pierre, I can tell you that much.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
QOTM (Time Capsule Version)
"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 7, 2008 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions
How about this
A’s keep Harden, everyone gets hurt again, team falls out of contention due to a 2 week stretch when it—again—needed help from the minors that wasn’t there, finishes 2009 3 games back.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Or this...
The A’s stay healthy, never get closer than 3 games, and the RiverCats win the AAA title thanks to Rich Hill and Felix Pie.
The way Rich Hill is going
He’d be lucky to help the AZL Cubs win the rookie-ball title.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Only way i would trade harden
If its a deal you cant turn down and a kid with alot of power or a player now with alot of power
thanks for that
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
Bargain contract?
The guy is making $7 million next year. Some frickin’ bargain.
Let me put it this way: would you rather have Rich Harden, or Gio Gonzalez plus young versions of Curtis Granderson and Geovany Soto? (That’s what Rasmus and Anderson—see above—look like.)
It’s a no brainer given where the strength of the A’s franchise is.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
For a unique, generational-type talent?
Hell yes 7 million is a deal. Look at the economics around the league, man. Unless you can swing a Dan Haren-type deal, the riskiest proposition here is NOT holding on to Harden for the 2009 run. Look at our record, look at our young talent… aren’t we primed for a 2009 run at the playoffs? At what point do you look around and realize the future got here quicker than anyone could have imagined?
The point where you look
At our hitting statistics, I think.
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on Jul 7, 2008 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions
You look at the A's minor league system
We are loaded with pitching, but if theres a deal thats goign to make us better as organzation espically the offense of side we have to do it
Exactly
Smith, Eveland, Cahill, G. Gonzalez, Anderson, DLS, Simmons, etc. but very few legitimate hitting prospects.
A little plumbing! Got to plumb! Plumb the depths! The depths of hell! - Larry David, CYE
by Swooney's Left Foot on Jul 7, 2008 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Fine!
But who’s going to give us legitimate hitting prospects? We’re talking about Felix Pie here! We’re not going to get another Carlos Gonzalez! Have you read the rotoworld report? Harden is undervalued because of injuries, just like Big Frank in 2006. Why would you trade a realistic opportunity for a 2009 Cy Young winner for AAAA players?
sonmanate
I understand how you feel, But were not goign to win games IF WE DONT SCORE RUNS FOR HARDEN
Who are we possibly going to get...
for Harden who will drive in runs? He’s undervalued. Do you think the Rays are going to offer Longoria?
Henry rodriguez to and iona
We all know we wotn spend that money for that big bat, so only way we can get it is by trade
I love Rich, but come on he only starts once every 5 days
I’m trying not to let the recent AAAA lineups the A’s have been trotting out to affect my judgement, but at some point you have to realize this lineup is not good enough to contend. I hate to say it, but Chavvy is done, over. The young kids aren’t quite ready yet, and there is a good chance some won’t pan out. (I’m talking to you Buck). I much rather have a few more solid position prospects to go along with the great young arms in the minors right now.
What happens when Billy passes and Rich tweaks his arm next month? The Cubs and Cards are freaked right now by the CC deal and will be willing to give up more for Harden. If Billy can get a third team involved it would make much more sense for both the long and short term.
Duke is untouchable
"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse
We all know
Harden could go on the dl anytime, if we can get a team top 3 prospects ill do it espically if its a young kid with power
we can't get the top 3 prospects of a team
unless it’s the cubs and probably not even them
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
We're 3.5 back of the wild card!
And half our position players have got barely a year’s worth of experience in the majors. And you want to trade our May/June best pitcher? Do you think a 19yo prospect + Felix Pie is going to get our lineup going in 2009? Think about this.
Yea it could get worse after this week
out offense is god awful right now and im not sure how were goign to score runs
I'm talking about 2009
And furthermore, do you really think Felix Pie is going to come in a set the lineup on fire?
I think a lot of people like the Cards better than the Cubs for that reason
I agree with you that Vitters is less exciting because he’s so far away.
Pie may or may not get his act together (he does have talent) but Vitters + Pie + Hill is in the right talent ballpark even though I don’t love the specific players. We could always swing another trade to change the prospects around some.
and the other half is on the DL, maye for the rest of the year. Look at the Giants
good pitching, absolutely no offense. You are not going to win 90+ games a year 1-0, 0r 2-1.
by theblackpearl on Jul 7, 2008 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions
But look at who we are up against
The Red Sox and Yanks aren’t going away quietly. The Twins and Tigers and surging, and frankly this season is becoming a repeat of last season in the fact that the DL is becoming larger than the actual roster.
Everyone here is so high on Gaudin, stick him in the rotation and we have a total repeat of last year, but with better prospects in the field getting experience for ‘09. Even with Rich it is a stretch to think this team can realistically win 90 games. The Wild Card winner will assuredly have more than that
"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse
WHAT BETTER PROSPECTS?
the report named Rich Hill and Felix Pie! where are these better prospects magically coming from? By all means, if another Dan Haren deal falls into our lap, I’d say pull the trigger, but with Harden’s injury history, you’re going to get AAAA talent. Why not roll the dice and keep him. Look at the reward! Have you been closing your eyes every fifth day for the last two months? Do you know how hard it is to find a unique, once-in-a-generation pitching talent?
I love Rich
Believe me when he is on, he is my favorite A’s pitcher since Huddy’s prime. But the guy is fragile as hell.
I’m not proposing that Billy give him away for nothing. And I don’t think Billy will pull the trigger anyway until closer to the deadline. I don’t trust the report that Pie and Hill is the only offer. I’m saying I trust Billy enough to only piull the trigger if it includes decent talent, but I AM saying if that deal presents himself he should do it.
"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse
Will you give up the Felix Pie thing already?
He would be a peripheral prospect at most, not the centerpiece of the deal.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
If were not willign to trade harden
Wolff and Beane have to grow soem balls and spend a little money on that big bat in the offseason
That aint gonna happen
So the best thing is to trade an asset. Conventional wisdom said that Blanton would bring better prospects until his terrible last two months, Rich is actually “healthy” and so he will now bring the most back. Beane CAN still contend as much as was expected and gain for the future by trading one of these guys.
Eveland and Smith has offered him that opportunity
"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse
Josh Vitters is a pretty damn good centerpiece
So is Colby Rasmus. Or Brian Anderson. Name me another team that’s interested and has legitimate prospects and I’ll give you another one.
I’m not sure where the irrational Carlos Gonzalez love is coming from here… it’s not like the guy is exactly lighting the world on fire at the plate. It seems to me that the A’s could very easily pick up one or two guys in the Gonzalez mold (toolsy players with questionable performance track records) as part of a Harden package.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Why would you be "playing for 2009"
instead of playing for all the time?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
i think "playing for 2009"
is just as much of a risk as trading harden. who says we’ll be in contention with our current pieces anyway? i thought the idea was to build for a little later…
I want an all Gonzalez & Anderson team for 2011
I generally bemoan the profusion of Mr Sabermetric Sporks in the Scrabble ranks who don't know the meaning or usage of 50% of the words they use. -monkeyball
When u sign people like
Frank thomas and mike sweeney and chavez past and crosby past, you look at Devine and hes had injury problems
what
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
That didn't take long
Figgins walks, steals second, goes to third on error and scores on groundout to 1st. Next guy doubles and now a single so this game is already showing how Texas pitching crawls into a shell when facing the ducksnorting Angels
And bases loaded
there was a DP ball that of course went off the glove for a single.
I was hoping for a 21-20 Texas win after 22 innings. Three days of it just and 10 Angels on the DL. Just because I hate that team, nothing else
so much talk about Harden
what are we going to get for Duke?
the guy is an All-Star, after all, and that is what really counts.
but seriously, what do some of the knowledgeable people think we can get for him?
Personally, I think it would be insanity to trade Duke
Just my opinion. Trade Harden if someone starts drooling over his potential, and then extend Duke. Someone has to anchor the front end of the rotation for the next 3 years.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Then keep Blanton because no one will offer his worth
and someone will offer more than Harden’s.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think that's more 2010
before they can be counted on to help win a division. Cahill’s awfully young and Gio’s awfully raw. One or the other, maybe.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I love Cahill
I think he and B. Anderson are the two guys who will emerge as studs. But they’re both very young and won’t/shouldn’t be rushed unduly.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Perhaps he will start at "2009 pick #13"
If he’s playing hardball, with the new comp rules, there isn’t much incentive for the team to pay big bucks for him.
I still think he’ll end up signing, but it puzzles me that he hasn’t done so yet. If he was going for slot money, you’d think that he would have already.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Gio's line from his last start was
something like 9 innings 1 hit 1 run 13 k’s and no walks….....?? That sounds like he is closer than 2010 rotation material….can someone verify? Thanks-MRod
Gio has been up and down all year.
But his Home/Road splits are very different. He still has the Ks and the stuff to pitch very well. His number at home are very very good.
When will then be now? Soon.
I think Gio will be starting with us next year..
Not Cahill tho. Cahill has a shot at pitching with the big club at the end of 09. Cahill is still just 20.
When will then be now? Soon.
Yeah
Matt Cain, who was considered a wunderkind, came up for seven starts down the stretch in 2005 at the age of 21.
That would be Cahill’s 2009 season. Hard to believe he’s going to outdo Matt Cain, or that the team is going to expect him to.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Son of a bitch...
right as Im typing this Anderson is taken outta the game after 3 and 2/3rds. Thats not good.
When will then be now? Soon.
GAK????? FLERP?? ??
Please keep us posted. Looks like 3.2 IP, 6 hits, 0 ER on 57 pitches. ???
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Im hoping its just becuase..
we has not pitched in a while. Maybe they had him on a pitch count.
When will then be now? Soon.
Seems odd, though, that they wouldn't
let him try to get the last out of an inning. And a logical pitch count might be 60, not 57.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well.. yeah.. 60 was prob the count.
If there was one. He was skipped his last start. Also was gonna pitch in futures game. Maybe they just protecting him now since he will pitch in the futures game.
When will then be now? Soon.
Well Blee posted on scout boards:
“The broadcaster just mentioned Anderson leaving as “a pitch count issue only” in preparation for the Futures Game”
He was listening to game on radio. Phew!
When will then be now? Soon.
{breathes out for first time
in 20 minutes}
Please call 911.
{dies}
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
TINSTAAIFPP
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I have no idea what the
“IF” are supposed to stand for.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Injury Free
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
+1 on this
but if there’s a smart GM out there, theyve gotta be interested in him. Im guessing he’d cost fewer prospects than Harden (yes?), but he’s an upper half of the rotation guy, unlike Blanton. There is a bit of injury question with him, as well…
+1 but
I still think the Beane can acquire a bat or two without having to trade Harden or Duke. But if it came down to it…......I’d keep Duke in a heartbeat over Harden if it absolutely came down to it. And to show you how much I love Duke?????.....He’s 30 and Richie-Rich is only 26 with crazy talent++
Oh, it fucking sucks being an A’s fan sometimes. I’d rather the A’s try to package Blanton/Gaudin/Street/Embree etc….to try and get something decnt in retturn and keep Duke and Tricky Dick. Here’s hoping we see Swooney and Jaguar Paw back in the lineup tonite. And hope Crosby is back by the All Star break at the latest….and Big Hurt and Mike Sweeney and…..oh never mind! Go A’s!
+1
Let him shepherd the youngins through the next few years. And let Blanton get his feet back under him, maybe for a Winter Meetings trade.
God, I hope someone overpays for Harden.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
Don't worry - I just checked the season's run differential
and learned that the Angels still suck.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
No, I haven't heard
I wouldn’t be shocked if they gave them each one more day, since Washburn is going and at least Emil and Raj would have favorable platoons tonight. I expect Gonzalez to be back by tomorrow – not sure about Sweeney, though. “Ankle swelled like a balloon” didn’t sound too good.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Triple AAA?
Wouldn’t that be AAAAAAAAA?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I've always thought Buck
was a classic “9-A player”.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That's the DL, right?
I generally bemoan the profusion of Mr Sabermetric Sporks in the Scrabble ranks who don't know the meaning or usage of 50% of the words they use. -monkeyball
They Can Smell Blood:
Pride And Poise!!!
by Raymond St. Martin (Saint) on Jul 7, 2008 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions
R. Sweeney and Gonzalez are both in
tonight’s lineup. Which makes me go :-)
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
So are Hannahan, Petit, Bankston and DFA
which makes me go :-(
A little plumbing! Got to plumb! Plumb the depths! The depths of hell! - Larry David, CYE
by Swooney's Left Foot on Jul 7, 2008 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Petit, Bankston and DFA are OK
It Outahan that does not cut it. But we are limited so lets hope Outahan gets on base some how
chad gaudin
As i’ve read AN over the past few weeks, there’s a lot of frustration (on my part too) that the A’s continue to misuse Gaudin. If he’s the logical emergency starter or in the plans as a 5th starter next year, why don’t the A’s keep him stretched out and capable of going 60 pitches in a tough spot? The A’s seem to have a lot of pitchers that complete their 100 pitches through 5 complete or 5+. That seems to call for a long reliever or a guy capable of throwing 3 innings at least once or twice a week. and yet the A’s use him for 2/3 of an inning here or a full inning only there.
are we (me too) misreading the A’s plans for Gaudin?
Trade Street, Keep Harden
Unless something really sweet comes along. I know, it’s a gamble. His arm could fall off, and if it doesn’t, we won’t resign him after 2009.
Still, my gut (yeah—I know, doesn’t work so well when utilized for important decisions: see POTUS) tells me that Harden is a once in a generation pitcher for the A’s and that he gives us a chance, if we can creep into the playoffs with a little bit of hitting, to make a big run in the crapshoot. When he’s on, he’s lights out (and yeah, when the light’s on, sometimes he’s out….)
But I can’t go for trading him now unless we get something very sweet, and I’m thinking sweet=2 prospects with power. If we can’t get that, I say wait until the 2009 deadline and let the contender du jour make their offer, and take it if we’re not very hot in contention, and perhaps even then if the price is right.
We won’t get the Haren deal, but we have to get something damn good, or it’s just not worth it to me.
Street, on the other hand, I’d happily trade to an eager bidder.
Why are you guys so high on pie and murton??
if they are prospect that is worth looking into, they would be up here in the majors playing. with soriano on the DL and jim edmonds in the outfield. you would think the cubs would have them in the outfield if they are really that good. i am sure other teams are looking at harden. so why settle for so little??
I'm not big on Pie, but Murton is a solid bat against lefties.
Also, it’s the Cubs. They haven’t won in forever – there’s a reason for that.
Trades
Last year they were 38-32 but took like 6-8 times for win 39 and after 9 tries they won game 45 by july 31 they fell 50-57 I can understand why they gave away 2 players to save money and get a young catcher more time.
Yet at 48-41after 89 games making 34-39 for 82 wins and winning season 9th out of 10 now looks like something they can do.
I like Biily B but want to go for the winning season #9 out of last 10 season with 4 DIV titles 1 Wild Card
but this thing about if no playoffs things need to be changeed, if your not the NYY you just cant redo every year with no money .
If they happens every year we will turn into the KC with 75 win seasons.
Most A’s fan dont go now due to….
Never keeping free agents.
Crappy park .
Hate oakland for not trying to keep them.
MT Davis kills hrs and blah blah blah.
Also we dont like losing seasons in a row in oakland
in 40yrs 24-25 winning 15 divs titles and 6 times to WS 4 Rings
LETS GO FOR THE WINNING SEASON 9 out of 10
A)if a trade comes it must be with Huston Street the closer because they will not resign both if any Streets and Ellis and closers are easier to find the a great 2nd baseman that plays daily.
B)We cant just let Dutch go because young and good goal is that right?
C)harden lose not to bad from what I saw last to games I would not touch him in a trade
C)we need nothing but resing both or Ellis and let them Gel maybe we can just sign both make fans happy they come out next yr
If not and Ellis is let go they will like tonite every game due to last straw.
Why even trade Harden?
We need to just re-sign him to a cheap contract and if he stays healthy it will pay off. Why trade him for a bunch of scrubs that the Cubbies don’t even want in the bigs?
What makes you think he'll sign a cheap contract?
Carlos Silva got 10M per year. Rich Harden will start at about 14M and go from there on the free agent market.
The cheap contract part
No way Harden signs a short/cheap contract when he can get a long/expensive one as a FA
I want the A's to bring back:
Andre Eithier for Blanton
Beating LAA or wherever the fu*k they are, Priceless!
We are dangerously short on left-handed hitting
young OFers who might be good but won’t be great!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 8, 2008 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hahahahahooooohh God, I think I need to go cry
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
qotm
+326340671403842035
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
Richie Robnett, and Danny Putnam say hi, as they were talking to Travis Buck. But
unbelievably, there are no left-handed hitting outfielders in Midland
by theblackpearl on Jul 8, 2008 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I hear it is DONE
Rumor has it that Eric Patterson, Sean Gallagher, Sean Marshall and a lower level prospect are involved.
who told you that
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
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