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Around SBN: Are The Orioles Bad Or Unlucky With Their Young Pitching?

DLD 7/31/08: Fremont In Flux?

Unless it's in the trade open thread, I didn't see a link to this story anywhere:

Lew Wolff told Bay Area News Group he is unsure if the team's attempt to build a state-of-the-art ballpark in Fremont will succeed. "I don't know. I honestly don't," Wolff said Wednesday when asked if Cisco Field will come to fruition. "But say it doesn't. We're still under a lot of pressure to get a park that is our own. That isn't going to go away. So my hope is that we'll find a way to make it happen. It has not been as easy as I thought it would be."

Marine Layer's analysis is worth reading as always, and it's here.

Star-divide

My Wi-Fi at home is on the fritz, so I'm way behind in my morning reading (and needing to look like I'm working from time to time) and I'm kind of link-deficient....

Except for A. J. Pierzynski's new hairdo -- could he be a bigger ass than he already is?  Yes, he could.

And those who need to waste time at work can relax because Scrabulous is back!

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Monkeyshines? More like monkeyshavings.

When you make your next visit to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, be sure to stop by the lobby to check out the alien body they’ve had since 1953:

OK, turns out it’s not an alien…it’s a monkey which two barbers and a butcher now admit they shaved and dyed to make look like an alien. It’s this kind of crap which gives alien corpse and autopsy fans a bad name.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jul 31, 2008 11:10 AM PDT reply actions  

I played stand-up bass for Alien Corpse in high school ...

... and theremin for Autopsy in college

Worse than being dead is being hot. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 31, 2008 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

see, that's your problem, dude...

you never could just settle down and pick one instrument and one band and go with it…

And that’s why in your advancing years you’re writing song parodies of mostly-forgotten ‘70’s radio hits instead of having your own episode of Behind The Music about you already…

The point is, if you’d’a just stuck with something, you could’a been a has-been by now!

"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 1, 2008 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

nailed it

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2008 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Poor Dobby,

must’ve betrayed his master one too many times. Had to drown himself in that jar…

Can Magic Sprinkles Now!!! @('.')@

by Leopold Bloom on Jul 31, 2008 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

He needs a better union

Maybe the Society for the Promotion of Elfish Welfare

Green Hulk Fists

by oaklandSMASH on Aug 1, 2008 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I read this this morning in the paper

This does not surprise me, I always felt that moving to Fremont was an iffy deal. The reality is that the Bay Area is not really a good sports area, the demographics are such that there are relatively few die hard fans of any sports in the area. Of all the sports baseball is the most difficult to get fans to regularly go to games.
I believe the A’s will either have to fold the tent, or move somewhere else. They cannot stay at the Coliseum, and good luck in getting the politicos in Oakland to do anything. I am sure they would have been gone by now if there were other alternatives, that is their problem.

by Laoren on Jul 31, 2008 11:12 AM PDT reply actions  

the politicos in Oakland

will never build a new stadium, unless there is a sea change in the current leadership. Which I’m not necessarily in favor of, b/c unfortunately there are more important things than baseball. City/county/state governments have enough problems right now.

by jdr on Jul 31, 2008 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

yeah but Oakland's problems of late have all been

government-corruption-related, and Robert Bobb is in charge of investigating/auditing to find out how bad it is. (Bobb being the guy who was originally in charge of finding an Oakland location for a new stadium before being “let go” by then-mayor Jerry Brown.

....also, he has a cool name. )

I would love it if he extended his investigation back to when giant condo construction contracts were being handed out.

Bob Geren, on 8/2/07, on the success of Alan Embree as new interim closer: "What can I say,... he's been our Steady Tremendous Bullpen Man"

by popcornjames on Jul 31, 2008 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for everything, Al Davis

Bob Geren and Ken Macha both enjoy jai lai.

by CarGon's Jock on Jul 31, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1

Take away Al Davis and we still have a pretty Coliseum and a city that hasn’t been screwed by a stadium deal

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 1, 2008 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

+2

There would still be serious pressure for a new stadium, but the Al Davis debacle ruined it for everyone. Now, no Oakland politician will go anywhere near such a notion.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 1, 2008 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Take away Al Davis

and the Oakland A’s never exist.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Aug 3, 2008 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Even to the extent that's true, keep him in LA and the A's are much better off.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 3, 2008 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's one way of looking at it

Or keep the A’s in Kansas City and the A’s and Raiders are better off.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Aug 3, 2008 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Or

He comes back without raping Oakland (and the Oakland Coliseum).

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 3, 2008 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nice try

You’re blaming Al Davis for the misdeeds of Don Perata and Ignacio De La Fuente.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Aug 6, 2008 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, thanks Al Davis

Because if it weren’t for the Raiders, the Oakland Coliseum wouldn’t have been built and the Kansas City A’s would not have moved to Oakland.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Aug 3, 2008 1:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

All they have to do is free up some land.

Not like Wolff is asking them to pay for the stadium.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Jul 31, 2008 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly, not like land is a premium in the East Bay right now

Not like Wolfisher doesn’t have deep pockets

"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King

by Buck Turgidson on Jul 31, 2008 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

MLB's whole premise is...

...why pay for anything when you can sucker the taxpayers to foot the bill?

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 1, 2008 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Think about trying to buy 100 contiguous parcels on the open market.

You might get 50 or 60 for fair market value, but then the price will go up for every remaining parcel, as its owner tries to hold you up for a premium related to their new leverage. How would you propose to over come the problem of the extreeemely costly Albino Auction or abandoned drive-in site?

It would seem to me that about all you could do is offer everyone of them a piece of a package deal, take it or leave it, at some amount above market price. But then, only one of them needs to leave it—still mighty slim odds of getting it done without some “civic involvement.”

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Aug 2, 2008 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

sadly

most of those problems are of their own doing. where did all the property tax money from the real estate boom go for example?? more staff and administrators would be a good place to look first. i think most folks would prefer a stadium :-)

by cvdoug on Aug 2, 2008 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Even losses are better than...

oh never mind

"The Athletics at Fremont" is pretty bad

by ArakSOT on Jul 31, 2008 11:13 AM PDT reply actions  

Rich vs. the Brewers on WGN right now.

Still not used to this. Seeing him in the wrong uni makes my heart hurt.

by whiteshoes40 on Jul 31, 2008 11:20 AM PDT reply actions  

Root Beer Float Pics?

Since I can’t watch Rich, I need something nice to look at.

30 and counting...

by ZigFan31 on Jul 31, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

Working on it.

My sister left the house with her camera, which has a bunch of the pics, so it might be a while. Unfortunately, I didn’t get any of Carlos—he and Swooney came out at the same time, and I had to choose which one to stalk follow.

by whiteshoes40 on Jul 31, 2008 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

No prob.

Swooney is most definitely my first choice. I’m sure I won’t be disappointed!

30 and counting...

by ZigFan31 on Jul 31, 2008 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Your 2012

Las Vegas Athletics.

RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.

by walk off bunt on Jul 31, 2008 11:23 AM PDT reply actions  

Come on A's

Move to Portland…since its more than likely I’ll be in Oregon for school. In-State ftw!
Just a few hours away!

'Who's that guy we had to release last year because he robbed a bank?'- Billy Beane
Sean Gallagher is my hero.

by Morgasm on Jul 31, 2008 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hell, I'd do weekend commutes for Portland.

Train from Vancouver? Only nine hours or so…

And you guys complain about commuting to Fremont. Bah!

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Jul 31, 2008 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

I love Portland ... I'd drive up once or twice a summer ...

but Portland isn’t big enough (similar to Sac), suffers from a similar problem as the Bay Area, there is just too much to do in the summer (similar to Sac) and also already has fairly strong ties to the Mariners (replace the Ms with the Gs and its similar to Sac)—which, while most Portland residents would go for their local team, would hurt a lot in the outlying areas, especially in terms of TV revenues.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Jul 31, 2008 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ties schmies.

Ain’t no Portander (Portlandian?) going to commute to Seattle over a team in their own backyard, no matter how long they’ve been using the Mariners as the best option.

Folks in DC seemed to have no problem ditching the Orioles once the Nats came to town.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2008 1:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wait, the Nats' attendance is horrible

Not exactly proving the point here.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Aug 1, 2008 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Say what?

The Nat’s attendance is amazing.

1. The stadium isn’t downtown.
2. It’s short season low-A ball. And the C’s still outsold the Expos when they were in the league.
2. It’s short season low-A ball. Did I mention that?

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Aug 11, 2008 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Vegas would still be worse than both.

Not only is it smaller than both, it has an utterly transient fan base. At least here in Sac, when you talk to most people, they’ve lived here for decades, and so have their families. That’s a base you can build around.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 1, 2008 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think Portland's size is the problem,

it’s the people. They’d never pass anything for a taxpayer-funded stadium, people would be whining about how the money could go to the homeless or more bike paths. Perhaps homeless paths, there’s a good idea. Just not really much of a sports town, people would rather look at art and/or smoke doobies than watch a game.

I’m not talking crap about Portland, I love the area. I’m in Seattle, which is pretty much the same place, just bigger. With fewer joggers and more bums.

by Dilferules on Aug 1, 2008 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Former Seattle resident speaking as a current Portland cyclist

Seattle and Portland have very different vibes. Seattle is more activist, while Portland is more live and let live. That said, I’d be a season ticket holder if the A’s moved to Portland

by williadc on Aug 2, 2008 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

No way

Not gonna happen. Relocation anywhere is hard-why move to a smaller market with bigger obstacles-and moving to Vegas has the further burdens of MLB’s gambling sensitivity. In addition, the longtime pro-sports-to-Vegas backer Mayor Oscar Goodman is in the decline of his health and influence. The Vegas pipe dream-and for the most part all relocation fantasies-remain handy levers to pressure existing locales, and that’s about it.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jul 31, 2008 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well

If not Vegas, I wouldn’t be surprised if they go somewhere. Maybe Portland or Sacramento or something. Or maybe Wolf will just give up, sell the team, and some guy will let the A’s sit around in Oakland for a decade or so underfunding the team and raking in the cash until they just get contracted.

RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.

by walk off bunt on Jul 31, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Vegas resident here

I know this is has been discussed ad nauseum, but to repeat: Las Vegas will never have a major league baseball team for several reasons:
1. The local businesses (read: casinos) will not support it because they see sports as competition for disposable income. They don’t want their customers sitting in a ballpark for three hours when they could be sitting in front of a slot machine that whole time.
2. MLB (and the other major professional sports) have indicated they want baseball taken off the boards at the local sports books. Will never happen. Only the NHL has shown any flexcibility on this matter.
3. Strip real estate is going in the $12-$15 million per acre range. A baseball park hosting the Yankees couldn’t make that pencil. Sure, they don’t have to build it on the Strip, but that’s the only place worth building anything that needs a lot of paying customers.
4. So much of the local population is transient, so they are unlikely to regularly pay to see MLB, unless it’s a widely popular road team.
5. The locals are also incredible bandwagon jumpers. If the team doesn’t win all the time, nobody cares. The Runnin’ Rebels have made the NCAA the last two seasons, and they are only beginning to recover some of the attendance they lost in the post-Tark years.
6. The locals expect everything comped, no matter who they are. They hate paying for tickets, or anything else.

So wherever it is, it won’t be here.

by EddieVegas_NRAF on Jul 31, 2008 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Helllllllo, Elko Athletics!

Also, regarding #4-5, in order to maintain attendance, you’d pretty much have to operate in a Yanks/Angels/Sox sign-the-biggest-names-regardless-of-perf:cost. I can’t imagine Beane would want any part of that.

Worse than being dead is being hot. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 31, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pahrump Athletics of Las Vegas?

That’s a great point, although BB would wear a suit and tie to the office before moving to Vegas himself anyway. He’d make Forst go.

Re: #4 . . . I meant that people would only show up if the home team were playing the Yankees, Red Sox, or other team with a huge, widespread fanbase. (I suppose that’s not too different from what happens now.)

by EddieVegas_NRAF on Jul 31, 2008 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Reno Athletics of Sparks

Let’s compromise!

Green Hulk Fists

by oaklandSMASH on Jul 31, 2008 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

#4: yes, agreed with the original point

I was just expanding/tangentializing—only way to convert transient/tourist/low-info-fans from the “Hey, the Yanks are in town!” to local fans would be by signing the “Hey, I recognize that guy’s name!” players.

God, do I hate low-information “fans.”

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 31, 2008 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

"God, do I hate low-information 'fans'"

That’s worthy of a whole post…

What would baseball be like without casual fans?

My conjecture is that if baseball ceased to function as a business, it would evolve into a religion.

"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams

by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 1, 2008 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

qotm on that last part

There's no textbook for how to treat a geriatric tapir.

by Poppy on Aug 2, 2008 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

If they want to play in the desert

i’m sure there would be no problem building a stadium in Dubai. travel might be a problem but i’m sure it could be solved with enough money…

by cvdoug on Aug 2, 2008 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lived in Vegas for a year.

And I concur, sir.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Jul 31, 2008 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

7. Who the heck wants to sit in the Vegas sun for three hours in mid summer?

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Jul 31, 2008 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

retractable roof

It works in Phoenix and it’s hotter there than in Las Vegas.

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by David Fucillo on Jul 31, 2008 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Please Stay Home

I’d take less to stay home At lease, maybe we won’t have to hear about anymore.

Enjoy the game

by DCinWC on Jul 31, 2008 11:23 AM PDT reply actions  

gads this is getting ridiculous

First I thought Favre looked like an ass. Now the Packers look like complete morons. ESPN is saying Favre is actually considering taking the money, which makes him look like more of an ass than before.

"Don't be an ass!" --Bill King

by batgirl on Aug 1, 2008 6:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Brett has plummeted off my good list.

There's no textbook for how to treat a geriatric tapir.

by Poppy on Aug 1, 2008 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

The Packers should just trade him to the Vikes or Bears.

Those teams really aren’t that good anyway, and if they get the right players in return, they can weaken those opponents further at the same time. The Pack is still the class of that division, with or without Favre.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 1, 2008 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

can someone with a mind less conspiratorial than mine ...

... explain why, exactly, Lew would say such a negative thing to a reporter if he wasn’t pulling the plug on Fremont and possibly selling his share in the franchise?

Worse than being dead is being hot. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 31, 2008 11:28 AM PDT reply actions  

pulling the plug maybe

But I don’t know about selling. The A’s are going to be a cash cow the next few years with revenue sharing and such a low payroll.

by jdr on Jul 31, 2008 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't have a LESS conspiratorial mind,

but couldn’t it be a hint to any players who might want to get in the game that there still is a game to get into.

It sounds to me like a hint dropped to tell Oaknald they still have a chance, SJ should start a protest movement, and Fremont should get off it’s butt (even if they aren’t on it already-EIR’s dont happen overnight.).

And it harms Lew in no way. He maybe gets more interest from other cities, maybe gets timeframes sped up, but it is very unlikely anyone would say “well that comment is the straw that broke the camel’s back, we are out of this!”.

"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty

by 5Aces on Jul 31, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's a possibility

and just as conspiratorial as monkeyball’s question.

by vertig0 on Jul 31, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

If true, that would make Lew's comments in October

at the Commonwealth Club even more bizarre. That’s when Wolff went out of his way to say that no matter what, even if Fremont fails, staying in Oakland is out of the mix. This perplexed many observers-including you, IIRC-since regardless of how true it might have been, it appeared to really gain Lew nothing, and seemed to antagonize Oakland partisans for no purpose.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jul 31, 2008 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Indeed

It was entirely unnecessary. To this day I don’t understand why he said that.

by vertig0 on Jul 31, 2008 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's a political comment

It was meant to send a message to someone. We’re not privy to the inside story, so we’ll never know, but it had something to do with the Selig/South Bay/Magowan dance or the Fremont City Council or the Oakland political structure or assurances made to Al Davis or…the possiblities are endless, but it was meant for someone’s ears and it probably meant nothing other than the message behind the words that we’re not privy to.

Can Magic Sprinkles Now!!! @('.')@

by Leopold Bloom on Jul 31, 2008 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

this I agree with

I think it’s probably a message to Selig. It certainly doesn’t help out in terms of getting a better deal with Oakland to be tipping your hand that Fremont is having trouble making it happen. I think it’s probably a hint to Selig that a new stadium isn’t forthcoming in the East Bay Area and hmmm what are our other options.

FWIW I did some work for the county a few years back and it was everyone’s opinion there that a new stadium in Oakland was a complete nonstarter. Given that times are even harder now than they were then …

by jdr on Jul 31, 2008 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

why would Lew need to send occult public smoke signals to Selig?

He and Bud are … buds. He can have his people call Bud’s people.

Worse than being dead is being hot. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 31, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

True

It’s not for Selig. It’s not even for the rest of the investors. They all get regular updates. If there is an intended audience, it’s the Silicon Valley Leadership Group.

by vertig0 on Jul 31, 2008 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe they're lovers and

Lew didn’t want to tip off Mrs. Selig, so he’s giving him twisted variations on the Carroll Burnett ear-tug thing, indicating which leather outfit he was to wear that evening.

Can Magic Sprinkles Now!!! @('.')@

by Leopold Bloom on Jul 31, 2008 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

well then perhaps

A public smoke screen in cahoots with Selig, going on record/creating a paper trail about how it’s impossible to get a stadium in the East Bay.

by jdr on Jul 31, 2008 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I obviously don't meet your comment prerequisite

But I’d hazard the guess that Lew’s trying to pressure the Fremonteers in advance of what may be more sweeping EIR concerns/mitigation requirements than expected, at least publicly.

Or, as Marine Layer suggests, Lew’s once again using the easy straw man of the EIR process (“oppose a cure for cancer!”) to cover up the more real financial concerns.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jul 31, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Real estate is in the toilet.

A major part of how this thing was to be funded was real estate (I’m still saving for one of those left field condos). With that now less profitable, either Lew has to find a way out of the Fremont plan, or push Fremont into being more amenable to him.

That’s my couple of pennies, anyhoo.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Jul 31, 2008 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I read this as constipational...

Which would figure, since monkeyball’s posting it.

"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball." -- Connie Mack

by GreenSocks on Jul 31, 2008 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

A little more insight from today's reports

Today’s Tribune follow-up suggests that Lew was talking to local Fremont companies who might be getting cold feet, and to the Fremont politicians who might lean upon them:

Fremont Mayor Bob Wasserman said Wolff asked him at Tuesday’s A’s game to talk to nearby property owners ProLogis and Pacific Commons to appease them about various concerns. Wasserman wasn’t clear on the details. But he thought the obstacles concerned ownership of some land and parking. Pacific Commons operates a large retail shopping center next to the proposed A’s ballpark site.

Three of the larger Pacific Commons retailers have expressed concerns with the A’s parking plan, team co-owner Keith Wolff said. Although the retailers can’t block the project, the team wants to make sure they’re satisfied. They want clarification and mitigation, Wolff said. One possible solution, he added, is a pedestrian bridge over Auto Mall Parkway that would link the ballpark to the largest parking lot.

Wasserman said he hadn’t come up with a plan on how to approach the companies yet, but would meet with Alameda County Supervisor Scott Haggerty – another A’s supporter – to figure out what to do.
“To Lew, I think it seems like they’re delaying things,” Wasserman said. “In Lew’s mind, I think he thinks they’re not being entirely reasonable. I’m not super worried. But I’m concerned. I think it’s important that we get the issues resolved so that we can move forward.”

Officials for ProLogis and Pacific Commons was not immediately available for comment.

Lew Wolff denied he asked Wasserman to talk to the companies. He said he requested the mayor remind all interested parties that the ballpark village will bring a much-needed economic boost to the city.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Aug 1, 2008 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't see that so much as "cold feet" as "asking for a larger slice of the pie"

It’s totally in the neighboring businesses’ interest to jack their demands up at this point in the process—they’ve got Lew over a barrel. I’m not applauding them per se (aside from acknowledging their shrewd strategic negotiating skilz), but this is absolutely a development (pun intended) that Crywolffisher should have anticipated and gamed out.

I think Lew has bit off more than he can chew with the scope of this project.

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2008 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'll believe Fremont when I see it

I’ve always thought it was a bluff – it’s too ragingly stupid to actually happen. Move a team with a perennial attendance problem to an even more out-of-the-way place in an economic region (the south bay) that’s been relatively depressed since 2001?

The problem, as pointed above, is that the East Bay is simply too small a region to support an MLB team (the Raiders are different b/c the NFL shares it’s TV revenues evenly), especially considering that once you get over the hill it swiftly starts turning into Giants territory again. The A’s really only draw from the East Bay and parts of the North Bay … these are tiny regions.

by jdr on Jul 31, 2008 11:32 AM PDT reply actions  

I believed Fremont for a little while

Now I’m in your camp. I fully expect never to see it, and I think it’s 50/50 that the A’s will either move sometime in the next 5-7 years or simply get stuck in the Coliseum with nowhere else to go.

RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.

by walk off bunt on Jul 31, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'll go with #2

I don’t see major relocation happening to any team any time soon. It’s a PR nightmare as the Seattle/OKC debacle has shown, and California cities are completely tapped out money-wise. I could see Sacramento putting up some cash, but it’s even more cow town than the East Bay (which I mean in the nicest way about both regions) – I don’t see Selig going for it. I thing the A’s are in the Coliseum for quite a while.

by jdr on Jul 31, 2008 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sacramento

Sacramento won’t put up cash. Look at the struggles the Kings have had getting an arena. I can’t imagine the situation being different for a team from out of the region.

by jeffro on Jul 31, 2008 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

They don't need to put up cash.

From the outset, Lew has said he’ll pay for the stadium.

He just needs the land freed up. And every city has acres of detritus-littered industrial land that nobody can do much with… somewhere.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Jul 31, 2008 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Simply not true

“From the outset, Lew has said he’ll pay for the stadium.”

No, what Lew’s said is that he won’t ask the taxpayers to directly fund/subsidize a stadium. He wants land to be rezoned from industrial to residential, multiplying the value of the land several times over. The proceeds from that newly valuable land would fund the ballpark. That’s not a direct taxpayer subsidy, but nor is it Lew paying for the stadium, since a City could just as easily use rezoning-created land values for some other municipal purpose.

Whether its worth if for a City to do that is an entirely different matter which is not the subject of this debate, yet.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jul 31, 2008 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

truly, these paperwork hocus-pocus acts

Always go swimmingly without real cash behind them.

As the current housing market shows (and the acres of empty/foreclosed developments), when ground-breaking time comes around market conditions have a way of being different than when the idea was conceived. There hasn’t been a stadium yet that somebody didn’t end up paying for, and somebody will end up putting down money for whatever theoretical new stadium the A’s get in the end.

by jdr on Jul 31, 2008 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I thnik the exception to

the stadium shell game is the Metrodome. I’ve heard it’s the only publicly-owned facility of its kind that actually makes money.

Can Magic Sprinkles Now!!! @('.')@

by Leopold Bloom on Jul 31, 2008 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, simply true.

There’s no loss for the city in rezoning industrial land to residential. In fact, it quite often means a higher tax income from the land once that occurs, which is why cities are so keen on housing developments as opposed to warehouses.

Like I said, he’s not asking the city to put up cash. That, sir, is true. True as the day is long.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2008 1:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ah, the old Hollywood Oz bait-and-switch

Haven’t seen it around much of late. You’ve gone from “Lew has said he’ll pay for the stadium” to “he’s not asking the city to put up cash.” While the latter appears to be more true than the former, they are not the same thing, as you well know.

I tried to pre-empt your first paragraph with my last one-I’ve not forgotten your style-and I am not automatically against rezoning land for development. However, there are negatives to consider. Cities like Oakland want to retain industrial capacity so they can retain some part of the well-paying blue collar job base which was once its economic backbone. Once land is rezoned and becomes residential, that employment capacity is gone forever, and such cities move towards becoming bedroom communities where people live but no one works. That’s a negative in the quest to retain a mixture of incomes in a city, and its a big negative in the sustainable development worldview, wherein you want people to be able to live near where they work for environmental reasons. So while trading off in favor of residential development may still be worthwhile, it’s facile to describe it as having no downside.

One last point: rezoning to create land value and derive benefits therefrom is a City asset…and a precious one, since you only get to use it once. Sort of like cashing in your savings bonds. If a City chooses to grant that asset to achieve the benefit of a ballpark, OK. But many cities might feel that they have more important issues upon which to spend their last remaining chits.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Aug 1, 2008 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

can one agree with both of you?

Absolutely, there are potential downsides and assessable “costs” to rezoning; but Crywolffisher effectively “owns” all that land now, and it’s highly unlikely that, say, a green-tech mfg firm is going to move in there and set up shop in the short-to-medium-term future - and even if Lew et al bail on the Fremont plan, such an industrial development would still be pretty far in the offing. All of which would mean that the land would sit idle for the next, what, decade? There’s certainly an assessable “cost” that can be assigned to that aspect, as well - which, per the definition of cost you use to assess ballpark financing, would mean that Fremont would be paying to have the land sit idle, right?

There’s standing on principle, and there’s acknowledging the facts on the ground.

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2008 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

From the Wolff's mouth
Blez: Do you still stand firm on the A’s ownership paying for the stadium and just have the area provide the land?

Wolff: That was never the case. The answer is that that was never it. It has to do with the use of entitlements, which gets very technical. What we don’t need are bond issues and things of that nature, but it is something like that. It takes a creative public and private cooperation. The answer is we haven’t changed our mind. I’ve explained it so many times that some people get it and some don’t.

So Lew Wolff does not seem to think he ever said what Ozzzzz claims he said.

"May a nit suck Cajun geese?" wonders Red. No, we see gnu Jack Cust in a yam.

by andeux on Aug 1, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

At the same time:

He’s not asking the city to build him a stadium. He’s asking for land to be made available for him to build a ‘village’ of which a stadium will be a part.

A far cry from what’s been going on with EVERY. OTHER. RELOCATING ball club.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Aug 11, 2008 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have to disagree a little

Entitlements would be a tangible city asset if the city had an aggressive, broad scope redevelopment wing. That’s the case in San Jose, Oakland, LA. Not in Fremont, where they don’t have the bonding capacity to acquire large swaths of land. In terms of less tangible assets, there’s a case to be made regarding the time. However, Cisco owned much of the land and was essentially sitting on it with little reason to sell unless they got bowled over. Who knows what the timeline for development would’ve been had the A’s not stepped in? In that case, the land from an opportunity cost standpoint could have been considered a negative for the city since it was being assessed at its previously low, unimproved value.

In Fremont there’s a conscious effort to plan and zone the city so that it doesn’t appear like a patchwork. Unfortunately, patchwork zoning is clearly evident in Oakland’s and San Jose’s redevelopment areas.

by vertig0 on Aug 1, 2008 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, sure, if there's nothing there to begin with

then there’s less lost from building something new. Nevertheless, rezoning still represents a conveyance of value to the property owner which they (Cisco in this case) did not enjoy before, and any municipality is well-served to extract a reasonable return when they convey value.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Aug 1, 2008 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

The situation might be very different for a team from out of the region

In addition to the grass-is-greener thing, people often will pay to get something shiny and new rather than maintain something they already have and are bored with.

by jdr on Jul 31, 2008 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

my fantasy is that

the Raiders move again when Al Davis passes and we can just demolish the Coliseum and build right on-site.

sigh

Bob Geren, on 8/2/07, on the success of Alan Embree as new interim closer: "What can I say,... he's been our Steady Tremendous Bullpen Man"

by popcornjames on Jul 31, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

*deep breath*

JUST BUILD THE GODDAMN NEW PARK IN THE SOUTH PARKING LOT ALREADY

by mikev on Jul 31, 2008 11:46 AM PDT reply actions  

Yes! Yes! Yes!!!!

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jul 31, 2008 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

By destroying the current stadium

and kicking the Raiders out and paying for it themselves.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Jul 31, 2008 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's not terribly realistic

Not only will the A’s have to pay out of their own pockets – which no team has done, not even the Giants – someone will have to pay back the remaining $100 million in debt on the Coliseum.

by vertig0 on Jul 31, 2008 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't say anything about realistic

Just saying the only way that happens.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Jul 31, 2008 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lew'd have to take less and work harder

As in accepting a lower value land rights stake somewhere geographically separate from the park (Tidewater, Army Base if willing to accept commercial rather than residential, possibly Oak-to-Ninth) and accordingly being willing to spend more of the team’s own resources than they currently plan to (to the extent their current financing plan is known, which isn’t much).

And he’d have to work through the same City-County molasses that turned off his predecessors. OTOH, he does appear to have more County support on the Authority than Schottffmann ever did, and the potentially more supportive City Council parties are still around and really more powerful than they were two years ago. The City has no money, of course, but the zoning/entitlement/development chits they still hold could be of value.

Mind you, I don’t expect this to happen, I’m just saying it’s at least a theoretical possiblity.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jul 31, 2008 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

County support could be fleeting

County support exists largely on the backs of Scott Haggerty and to a lesser extent, Gail Steele. Move to Oakland and Haggerty becomes a thorn as he was before the Fremont plan emerged. Maybe Nate Miley could step in. That’s a big if.

by vertig0 on Jul 31, 2008 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hmmm

FSU, I wonder how much of a relationship Bob Bobb has with Wolf? Do you think that Dellums retention of Bobb was a message to Lew and/or these comments from Lew a message to Bobb? Could they be flirting about Oak to 9th?

"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King

by Buck Turgidson on Jul 31, 2008 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oakland is a pipe dream...

Fremont may becoming more so also, if Morrison and his ilk are elected. I hate socialists.

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 1, 2008 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

May I suggest that you and me

trade places, then? You can deal with the anti-socialist league of SW Florida, the pro- gun toting populace and a strict sense of class that only a Brahman would consider lax. And I will revel in the equality of brother and sisterhood that is seemingly only available in parts of the greater Northern California area.

Can Magic Sprinkles Now!!! @('.')@

by Leopold Bloom on Aug 1, 2008 12:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

this is total horse shit

grow up man

"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King

by Buck Turgidson on Aug 1, 2008 2:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

... which I guess would explain why Bellocq and Toht had you dropped into the Well of Souls full of socialists

“Socialists. Why did it have to be socialists?”

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2008 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

I've read where

it’s because, as a young adventurer, he once fell through the top of a boxcar, loaded with socialists, including a young Mario Savio.

Can Magic Sprinkles Now!!! @('.')@

by Leopold Bloom on Aug 1, 2008 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

it also explains why ...

... his preferred weapon of choice, which he uses to lash others, looks surprisingly like a … socialist!

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2008 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Your tone reminds me of Bricktop,

“Do you know what “socialist” means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an ‘orrible c-word…me.”

Can Magic Sprinkles Now!!! @('.')@

by Leopold Bloom on Aug 1, 2008 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

are you implying that I'm a ...

... lady saloon-keeper, or a psychotic local crime boss?

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2008 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

You,

Sir, are both. And damn proud of it, by looks.

Can Magic Sprinkles Now!!! @('.')@

by Leopold Bloom on Aug 1, 2008 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Indeed!

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Aug 3, 2008 2:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Haha.

Kendall almost took Rich to the warning track. Crazy.

by whiteshoes40 on Jul 31, 2008 11:47 AM PDT reply actions  

I thought Kendall was dead.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Jul 31, 2008 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Another link

Scroll past the tacky crap for the breaking news on Queen Victoria’s knickers.

by Englishmajor on Jul 31, 2008 12:06 PM PDT reply actions  

You say the buyer was a wealthy Canadian with ties to Victoria?

Worse than being dead is being hot. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 31, 2008 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Once again, we see Larry’s pernicious influence:

I am set in my ways and wound up just using old fashion ice and heat packs

Worse than being dead is being hot. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 31, 2008 12:40 PM PDT reply actions  

hey who's this guy with 1er in 7 inning against the brewers?

can we have him?

Let's have our Piazza and eat the Cust too - SPWC

by closetasfan on Jul 31, 2008 12:56 PM PDT reply actions  

The old switcheroo

Send the A’s to Sacramento and the Rivercats to Oakland. The A’s could probably sell out Raley Field on a regular basis, and the Oakland crowd won’t see much difference in the quality of players on the field.

"If you make up your mind not to be happy, there's no reason why you shouldn't have a fairly good time." -Edith Wharton (The Last Asset)

by Oakville Athletic on Jul 31, 2008 1:12 PM PDT reply actions  

I know you are probably joking but would that really work. Someone on here smarter than I, can

probably figure out, that with the A’s Payroll, Raley Field seating less than 15,000, and what they have to pay, because I don’t think Raley Field is completely paid for. Would the A’s make any money.

by theblackpearl on Jul 31, 2008 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Short answer?

No.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jul 31, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

No. But it might be a lot easier to expand an existing site to the desired 35K.

I don’t believe that’ll happen, but it has some appeal. Easier EIR process (guessing), good transit, empty space around it for further development, etc. I have no idea how it might fit with Sac’s development plans, however.

My money is still on Fremont, and I still think it’s smart to move as close to the growth market over the last 20 and next 40 years as possible without triggering a decade-long lawsuit. I just think everybody’s nervous about real estate in general until it bottoms out. Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions.

My second choice would be to sublet the Big Phoney. Of course, that’ll only happen if everyone deserts the Giaunties and they can’t make their mortgage. Unlikely to the extreme otherwise , esp with that buccaneer Neukom around.

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Jul 31, 2008 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

personally, I love the Glenn Dickey Plan

Giants and A’s share Warrantless Wiretap Park, Raiders and Niners share the Coli.

No farkin’ way Crywolffisher goes for that plan, though. For the Giants, it makes tons of sense, though—not sure where their downside/disincentive would be.

And … sigline!

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 31, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Neukom is an ex-Microsoft GC of the "cut off Netscape's air supply/screw Sun -- pollute java" school of competitive vigor.

He will not want to do anything that potentially strengthens the A’s. Win/win is not in the vocabulary of the ‘softies. Besides, in two years, which team do you spoze people, esp front-running BA fans will wanna watch on the nights when Lincecum’s not pitching? I think they’d be handing us the keys to the fandom.

I think it helps Unca Lew because I’m guessing the A’s’ franchise value would skyrocket—much better attendance and no debt, after which he’d sell.

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Jul 31, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't see that at all

The A’s would be paying rent (i.e., paying down Neukom’s org’s debt) on WWP. The A’s franchise would remain without the massive revenue scheme of the Selig Acres Ballyard Real Estate. A’s fans who came to WPP would potentially get hooked on the ballpark, and might not follow the team when they ultimately move somewhere else in the BA.

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 31, 2008 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Couple ideas:

1 - Why would they give up the competitive advantage of their location, and lock the A’s into the Bay Area, when by excluding them, they strengthen their hold on the casual fans who like a nice venue - and there’s a reasonable shot that they’ll end up shed of the A’s completely if Fremont craters and our heroes relocate?

2—Giants, per HBT are worth $494M in 2008 on $197M in revenues. A’s are worth $323 on $154M revenue.

I’m going to guess that a major fraction of the revenue difference is in the “live” gate. To the extent it might be TV-related, that follows fan interest, as well. By subletting, they would risk losing their attendance advantage, esp over the next five years, when the A’s may well contend, and the Giaunts show every expectation of continuing to suck. That casual fan might well defect, and just for some rent? It’d have to be a helluva lotta rent.

3 - since Neukom is a retired ‘Softie, I think he would view it as being like giving Netscape an equal place next to IE on Windows in the mid-1990s, in return for an access fee. Head to head, consumers could have seen that Netscape was a much better browser. Microsoft’s strategy instead was to leverage their asset - “choke off their competitor’s air supply”—trying to use its clout to exclude Netscape from Windows where possible. Ultimately it worked (‘course it helped that they backed the right Presidential horse part in the 2000 election, but I digress in the general direction of a cgv).

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Jul 31, 2008 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

That is probably a good idea, too good.

Enjoy the game

by DCinWC on Jul 31, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Raley Field is not expandable

Not being a technical expert I can’t explain why. I lived in Sacramento up until a year ago. I bugged a bunch of people (newspaper columnists, engineers and architect’s) when I first moved there (same year Raley Field opened) about the expandability. The way it was related to me was that originally, to sell the idea of the stadium the campaign used potential expansion as a selling point, but in the final design the stadium would basically have to be rebuilt to make it work.

by jeffro on Jul 31, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've only been to Raley Field twice

But if I remember correctly, the parking situation there was awful. Dirt lots miles away from the park. That would have to be addressed as well, right?

by EddieVegas_NRAF on Aug 1, 2008 6:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

The numbers aren't that bad for Sacramento

Sacramento is a good sports town. The nights are great for baseball. A good part of the central valley would support “their” team.

Checking the population of metro areas, Sacramento has 2.159 million. Portland 2.064. Cincinnati has 2.1 million. Denver, which has drawn amazingly well, has 2.6 million, and nothing like the east side of the Bay Area within 100 miles. Sacramento is not a ridiculous option.

RAC

by rcodd on Jul 31, 2008 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know what's weird about that plan?

Back in the day, the Oakland Oaks moved to Vancouver and became the Capilanos.

In 2000, the Vancouver Canadians moved to Sacramento and became the Rivercats.

Now you’re suggesting the Cats go to Oakland.

It truly is a cyclical sport, ain’t it?

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Jul 31, 2008 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let's be real, the A's should move to Alameda

The old military base is abandoned and in need of tenants. Hello, waterfront property! The developer needs an anchor business tenant. The only real obstacle would be the road access (they would need another bridge over the estuary), and the locals getting all pissy.

Bob Geren and Ken Macha both enjoy jai lai.

by CarGon's Jock on Jul 31, 2008 2:55 PM PDT reply actions  

Or Albany

Since the owners of Golden Gate Fields are not getting their shopping mall.

by Englishmajor on Jul 31, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hmm....there ARE A's in AlbAny...

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Jul 31, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

and AlAmedA

There's no crying in baseball!

by gigglingone on Jul 31, 2008 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would LOVE if if they went to Albany

but it will never happen, for a multitude of reasons;

a) Sierra Club has bought the City Council seats (literally) and wouldn’t let any development down at the waterfront happen (with the exception of a Sierra Club Owned and Operated Hotel-hey, the Sierra has to make money somehow to pay off all those politicians)!
b) The area where the Ballpark could be built (Golden Gate Fields/Albany Bulb/Gilman Track) is under THREE different jurisdictions; Albany, the East Bay Regional Park Service, and worst of all, Berkeley (who if the A’s ever managed to build and had any part into it, would have to end up paying approximatley $340,000,000 in taxes and inspection fee’s… and no I don’t think I am exajurating).
c) Part of that area, the Gilman Track, is being developed by a group of Youth Sports Programs (for several years now, mainly due to Berkeley levying million dollar fee’s and demanding that the field complex be named after their mayor) including Youth Soccer, Albany Girls Softball and Albany Little League.
d) Traffic would be a nightmare, as that part of 80 is a very bad traffic zone to begin with.

facepalm.jpg

by Zonis on Jul 31, 2008 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not likely on either count

Alameda – massive NIMBY issue and problems with large crowds getting on/off the island.
Albany – Commute issue far worse than Fremont.

by vertig0 on Jul 31, 2008 3:28 PM PDT reply actions  

Another issue with Alameda

Any former military base is going to have major environmental cleanup issues.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Jul 31, 2008 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Asbestos abatement! Yay!

[/toxic tort paralegal]

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jul 31, 2008 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Possible Moves

If one looks a bit farther afield, there are several large, prosperous cities without MLB. San Antonio, Nashville, Charleston. All have the population, wealth, and desire to make a fine home for the A’s. I’m sure there are others. All would build a ballpark in a heartbeat. And no environmental BS.

by movetotexas on Jul 31, 2008 3:43 PM PDT reply actions  

I always wondered

why Charlotte doesn’t have an MLB team? Probably wouldn’t make sense now with both the Nats and O’s relatively close.

Might as well Jump! - Van Halen

by sprtsnwyn on Jul 31, 2008 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

*cough*Vancouver*cough*

You’d have half a country of supporters, and a $180 round trip from Oakland.

Not to mention 3m locals who currently have to either travel internationally or cross the continent to se a ‘local’ MLB team.

Oh, and they also sell out Canucks NHL games every night (18k or so) and even draw 6k per game to minor league soccer, and as many as 50k to Canadian Football games.

Forget the Grizzlies, this is a big sports town.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Jul 31, 2008 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's a six-hour drive minimum from Charlotte to Washington...

...so it’s not that close. Atlanta’s closer (four hours).

Although I’d love to see a team in Charlotte (I live near Raleigh), I haven’t seen much of a groundswell for trying to get a team there. The Marlins were thinking about Charlotte a couple of years ago in their stadium tussle, and that wasn’t greeted with much enthusiasm. The idea hasn’t really surfaced since.

A ballpark would need to be built, and the AAA Knights (who play just south of Charlotte in Fort Mill, South Carolina) have been trying to have one built uptown (and running into trouble doing it).

I want a Yanks-and-Sawx-less postseason...

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Jul 31, 2008 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

They show more games, so people must like them more???

Man I hate Sacramento sometimes.

Leading off: Are we N.L. or A.L. town? Try Giants town

How can we tell? First, the Giants’ home crowds are regularly larger (averaging 35,602 to 21,111 entering Tuesday). Second, nearly all of their 162 games are televised (broadcast or cable), while the A’s won’t have 100 games televised. In Sacramento, you can get all Giants games on KNBR, while the A’s have struggled to find a regular radio affiliate here for years. The evidence could go on and on.

http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/1122510.html

by theblackpearl on Jul 31, 2008 4:02 PM PDT reply actions  

I moved to Sac two years Ago

I am a lifelong A’s fan, although I just moved to Sacramento (and CA itself) two years ago. I expected the A’s to be pretty popular in Sac, because they were one of the “local” MLB teams and because the Rivercats are here. I was disappointed to find that there are more Giants fans here. Sure, it’s just my experience and maybe I am wrong, but it sure seems to be true.

I don’t think the A’s would ever move to Sac, but – if were to happen – I think this city would ultimately embrace them, simply because it would be “their” team.

by rallenrader on Jul 31, 2008 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

That is a product of the stadium more than anything else

When the Giants played in Candlestick the A’s matched their attendance every year, more often than not, they exceeded the Giants in attendance. The fact that the Giants have KNBR helps them immensely also, it is 24 hour Giants, whereas an A’s fan almost never hears any A’s talk.

by Laoren on Jul 31, 2008 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

San Jose A's!!!

If San Jose could grow to love the Sharks, they would fill up for A’s games in a sec, not to mention the SV corporate suites…there has to be a way to get this done.

BTW, if you think the SV has been economically depressed since 2001, you haven’t been following the local economy very closely…

by standuptriple on Jul 31, 2008 4:20 PM PDT reply actions  

that's why I say relatively

The A’s-to-San Jose thing started in the late 90s when people were speculating about all the loose internet cash and how that meant tons of luxury boxes – and it might have. But that environment is gone – I’m not convinced that today’s tech companies, particularly in the types of industries they’re in and operating on the margins they do, would buy luxury boxes which are essentially intended to be a perk for upper management and to be used as an old-school client-wooing tool, not in that order. But it seems that most boxes end up going to brick-and-mortar, as they used to say, type companies where schmoozing seems to be a bigger part of the client retention process. I might be wrong – I’m not in the tech industry. But that’s the impression I get.

And FWIW, it’s only one measure, but total employment, which is a pretty fair general measure of regional economic health, is still significantly down in 2008 from 2001 levels. Which you would expect – Santa Jose was hit hardest by far of the local areas for the obvious reasons. Employment #s dropped nearly 20% – that’s freaking huge. The economy seems much better now because it is much better than it was at the lowest point a few years ago, but there’s still quite a ways to go to get back to the high water mark.

by jdr on Jul 31, 2008 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

What statistics are you using?

At the beginning of this year, SCC non-farm employment was over 900k jobs. In 2000 it was 878k, in 2005 it was 860k. Not down, and definitely not down 20%.

The Valley’s downturn came because post-Y2K spending freezes, 9/11, and the culling of mismanaged dot-coms. By early ‘04 recovery was well underway. The poster child for the downturn was Cisco, which really struggled early in the decade but has rebounded back to dominance.

Cisco Field has around 40 regular luxury suites planned, less than any recent ballpark. As I understand it there will be numerous tech firms ready to go once it opens. There will also be brick-and-mortar businesses, construction, and non-tech represented pretty well too. There will also be 40 six-person minisuites, which are meant for smaller companies such as law firms. When I was at Nats Park in DC I noticed that one of the prime suites was shared by the local ABC affiliate, Politico.com, and another media company. Suite buyers here will have a choice of either a share of a big suite or a minisuite.

by vertig0 on Aug 1, 2008 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics) - all employment (didn't use non-farm)

Peak employment is 2001 at ~1,000,000 employed in the region for the year, peaking at around 1,050,000. Today it’s 900,000 – at it’s lowest it was around 833,000 in early 2004. That’s pretty close to 20%, though if you smooth it and seasonally adjust it you’re closer to 15%. Still not fun. Santa Clara county has indeed rebounded (as I said) – it’s just still not where it was, and won’t be for quite a while. Neither is San Francisco. Alameda County is closer to peak but then it didn’t get nearly the tech runup the other two counties did – not for lack of trying. They got “lucky”.

re: luxury boxes, I honestly don’t know – that’s just my impression. Then again I also don’t think Cisco is going to happen. We shall see. I just hope the A’s don’t move entirely out of the region.

To be clear, I’d love it if the A’s moved to San Jose – my objections aren’t to the region, which is probably better than the East Bay in the long run, but to Fremont specifically. That particular site is a disaster for multiple reasons, not least of which is you’re moving to the South Bay but not really. If they’re going down there they need to get San Jose. Which will never happen. But one can hope.

by jdr on Aug 1, 2008 12:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

San Jose will never happen...

it’s Giant’s territory. It’s the next least likely scenario to a new A’s ballpark to Oakland. They’re both hopeless non-starters. Fremont is your only, best hope for keeping the A’s in the Bay Area. Resign yourself to it. Or watch them move.

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 1, 2008 1:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

and, as much as everybody on this site loves the Haas ownership...

they screwed the A’s by “donating” Santa Clara County to the Giants. Now, Peter McGowan is not so much of a socialist to donate it back. Meet reality. Smart capiitalist boy, that Peter.

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 1, 2008 1:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't be so sure about SJ.

Say whatever you like about Selig, but as far as baseball commissioners go, he’s really nobody’s fool. The guy takes a beating, but damn near everything he’s touched concerning baseball has turned to gold.

Selig inherited his job amid some of the worst owner strife in the history of the game. The owners regularly got their asses handed to them by the MLBPA, and rightly so. They were splintered among themselves, but that hardly stopped them from cutting an allies throat if they perceived a financial advantage in doing so. Selig recognized that his term would be short lived if he didn’t quash the infighting. He has adroitly manuevered the owners into consensus before he takes action, and having achieved relative peace among the owner ranks, he is loathe to muddy the waters.

These are the reasons he didn’t task McGowan over the Territorial Rights issue. The internal squabbling wouldn’t be worth the result. But like anything else, things change. When the Expo franchise was forced to the wall and the status quo was no longer a viable option, Selig acted to silence Angelino and resolve the situation. If I recall correctly, he received a near unanimous vote, save one. Nonetheless, he made damn sure the Orioles owner also received his pound of flesh.

What I’m saying here is that if Selig deems SJ the only viable option, the TR’s of the Giants will fall in short order. He will get the other owners to do the dirty work for him, but he will make it happen. The owners love the guy for a reason. He makes them money.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 1, 2008 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Context is needed

The area likely won’t reach more than 1 million jobs soon because certain industries are still nascent, such as green power and design. The salad days were there due to the bad dot-coms that were fueled entirely by VC funds and prayer, and large amounts of short-term contract employment. Some of us here look fondly on those times. We also know plenty of people that left and never came back.

The suite model works in either Fremont or San Jose, it may be more effective in San Jose.

by vertig0 on Aug 1, 2008 1:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Gross employment numbers are a pretty dull tool in this case.

As somebody fanposted a while back, the Peninsula/South Bay has generated the lion’s share of new business development in the tech era, as measured by its fraction of the largest firms in the region—far outstripping the East Bay and even SF. It was orchards when the two teams moved here, but now it’s the biggest engine. Oakland as an economic center is basically moribund. I don’t see any reason to believe those factors will change any time soon.

Moving to the growth - past, present and foreseeable future - is irresistible, methinks. I also think that baseball, among all major sports has by far the highest geekitude quotient, which also suggests the South Bay, and not Oakland, as the relo place.

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Aug 1, 2008 7:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

It was a throwaway line talking more about Fremont than San Jose that has been blown out of context. Oakland/East Bay’s economic driver is/was manufacturing which is woebegone of a past era in the United States. The future is still high(er)-tech and that future for the region is in the South Bay – if the A’s CAN move there they should. But not to Fremont, and particularly not to the currently planned site, for the multiple reasons cited above.

by jdr on Aug 1, 2008 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

All this talk of Sacramento makes me wonder

What kind of attendence do the Sacramento Kings get? Traffic would be a nightmare around Fairfeild/Vaccaville though, it’s bad enough already.

You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}

by micdog2001 on Jul 31, 2008 5:40 PM PDT reply actions  

Kings get excellent attendance

and have for many years, even when they weren’t good. They finally ended their streak of 300+ sellouts this year.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 1, 2008 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm killing time by watching "Groundhog Day" while doing laundry.

The DVD skipped and the movie started replaying a previous chapter. Oddly enough, I didn’t notice for a few minutes.

Mark Ellis: sent down from Heaven to rob Evil of hits and hand out rainbows

by Jennifer on Jul 31, 2008 8:22 PM PDT reply actions  

Okay . . .

A. That’s one of my favorite movies ever! And 2. LOL!

Stomper is a badass!

by lynnzgal on Jul 31, 2008 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

LOL

"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL

by oblique on Jul 31, 2008 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would rather the A's moved to Sac...

than to Fremont. But I’d rather see them in Fremont than leave Norcal altogether. I guess that I am hoping that the Fremont deal gets done.

by IM4Oakgal on Jul 31, 2008 9:15 PM PDT reply actions  

I think the 580/680 interchange would be nice.

Maybe the Fairgrounds or Hacienda Business Park. The latter will have good BART access.

I would love to see a fan location census - I really wonder whether there are more regular game attendees west - or East—of the Caldecott Tunnel.

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Jul 31, 2008 11:24 PM PDT reply actions  

For most people east of the Caldecott

580/680 isn’t substantially closer than Oakland, and there’s no direct bart access from contra costa county to 680/580.

by ohmangoAs on Jul 31, 2008 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know

All the new stadiums that have “changed” the fate of a franchise did so by building the stadium in an area that has natural desirable characteristics but are depressed for whatever reason. So a) it’s an area that people want to go to anyway (and can get to easily) but b) actually affordable to build on. Jacobs Field, Camden, Pac Bell, Three Rivers (if the Pirates weren’t so dumb). Hint: they’re all near the water. Where does that leave us in the East Bay?

by jdr on Jul 31, 2008 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hellllllllllo, Hetch Hetchy Athletics of Yosemite!

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2008 12:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Dam!

This is a decent read on Hetch Hetchy.

It's Rhodes Scholar Night at the Coliseum tonight.

by Scottbass on Aug 1, 2008 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

And water in the west, in general (an oldie but a goodie)

here.

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Aug 1, 2008 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Natural desirable characteristics but depressed.

Good thing the A’s are leaving Oakland. Could Jerry Brown’s condos still suffer from a series of “accidents?”

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 1, 2008 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Have you seen 'em?

Many with an architectural eye would suggest the accident has already happened.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Aug 1, 2008 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

I haven't.

Thanks for the heads-up, though. Last thing I need is salt in the wound.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 1, 2008 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Joe Blanton's Culture

Joe’s included in the current edition of Sports Illustrated’s Pop Culture Grid. Some of his answers:

Favorite Movie of All Time: Dumb and Dumber
Funniest Person Alive: Larry the Cable Guy
Secret to Happiness: I don’t think there is one

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Aug 1, 2008 10:14 AM PDT reply actions  

Hunter Pence's answer

The last song I downloaded onto my iPod: Handle Bars by Slow Boss

WRONG. I wonder if Hunter or SI got this wrong.

Mark Ellis: sent down from Heaven to rob Evil of hits and hand out rainbows

by Jennifer on Aug 1, 2008 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd have put

“Old Chicago Pizza and season tickets”...but that’s just me.

Can Magic Sprinkles Now!!! @('.')@

by Leopold Bloom on Aug 1, 2008 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

No, damn you all!

I wanna come home!!!

Can Magic Sprinkles Now!!! @('.')@

by Leopold Bloom on Aug 1, 2008 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd love those

I’d make a cool few thou on e-bay selling to people who don’t want to sit on a roof.

Green Hulk Fists

by oaklandSMASH on Aug 1, 2008 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

McFood?

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Aug 1, 2008 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Joe's a party pooper.

He basically didn’t answer 3 of the questions—not even, “I never met a …. I didn’t like.” Such an easy one.

I like that Hunter Pence said he never misses “Saved by the Bell”... although as far as I know, it’s one of those old sitcoms that’s only on in the early morning hours. That takes dedication.

by whiteshoes40 on Aug 1, 2008 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hey, no politics!

Whoops, sorry—wrong Joe.

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2008 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

About effin time!

A blogger calls out the Deadspin commenters for being a bunch of sexist jerks.

This happens a lot in the blog world but seems particularly bad at Deadspin—amusing and reasonably well-written “front page” posts, followed by embarassingly juvenile comments. Good thing we don’t have that problem!

Now that that’s done, what’s new with Jamie Kotsay?

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Aug 1, 2008 10:37 AM PDT reply actions  

hit by a what?

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2008 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

I know! (Jamie Kotsay division)

.... a flying dogfather in his dreams!

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Aug 1, 2008 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Haven't people learned about comments?

90% of decent blogs have horrible comments sections. Not even worth looking.

Same 90% for newspaper stories that allow comments.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Aug 1, 2008 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

BREAKING -- MUST CREDIT MONKEYBALL, AP

OAKTOON’S TRUE IDENTITY REVEALED:

"If you looked at some of the numbers guys were sitting on as we got into the middle of June, I think it was very apparent that even their average year would mean a big upswing in the second half of the year," [he] said.

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2008 10:53 AM PDT reply actions  

All those moments will be lost in time...

...like tears in rain.

There's no textbook for how to treat a geriatric tapir.

by Poppy on Aug 1, 2008 10:58 AM PDT reply actions  

I blame Swisher.

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Aug 1, 2008 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

QOTM

Assjack’s new nickname: “Baty”

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2008 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

ahhhh, my eyes, they're burning

Tangentially, this reminds me of when Ramon used to change his hair color all the time. And for the record, I really like Ramon (although sometimes his hair did look awful, but nowhere near AJ-bad).

by whiteshoes40 on Aug 1, 2008 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's too bad he won't live

Then again, who does?

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Aug 1, 2008 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

I want more runs, f%$#er father

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2008 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

The A's notes in the Chron today

said that Travis Buck is on the DL at Sacto with a concussion. Do we know if this is a new concussion, or if he’s still messed up from the one a few weeks ago?

(link)

by whiteshoes40 on Aug 1, 2008 11:13 AM PDT reply actions  

Same concussion.

Still effed up.

Mark Ellis: sent down from Heaven to rob Evil of hits and hand out rainbows

by Jennifer on Aug 1, 2008 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

He doesn't remember my name now. :(

Mark Ellis: sent down from Heaven to rob Evil of hits and hand out rainbows

by Jennifer on Aug 1, 2008 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

I hope he remembers how beautiful his hair is

and doesn’t randomly shave his head again (although, if I remember correctly, the hair debacle last year was a rookie hazing thing, but that’s not the point).

by whiteshoes40 on Aug 1, 2008 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sadly, Travis had to shave his head in prep for brain surgery.

Mark Ellis: sent down from Heaven to rob Evil of hits and hand out rainbows

by Jennifer on Aug 1, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

They're giving him a brain?

Cool!

Can Magic Sprinkles Now!!! @('.')@

by Leopold Bloom on Aug 1, 2008 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

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