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On Chavez: Incompetence, denial, and implications

The Eric Chavez saga tells us a lot about the Oakland A's, and none of it is good.

Billy Beane decided, a few years ago, to build this team around Chavez.  That's why he, and not Tejada or any of the pitchers, got a long-term contract.  The team invested more in Chavez than in any other player.  And they've totally botched that investment, or allowed him to do so.  That's rank incompetence.

We now know that Chavez won't ever be a third baseman again.  He has an injury that's degenerated to the point that it can't really be fixed.  A baseball player who can't throw without pain and whose injury makes it impossible for him to hit is one thing: a designated hitter.  And from Chavez's own comments, that option seems questionable as well.

How was this allowed to happen?  As I mentioned in a comment last night, there are plenty of elite athletes whose careers are cut short due to injury.  One is tempted to put Chavez in that category, except for the nagging feeling I have that this particular injury could have been prevented or not allowed to destroy his career.

After all, it's not exactly new for Chavez to complain about his throwing shoulder.  A few years back, Chavez said he could barely throw the ball across the diamond.  That wasn't just talk.  His throws consistently bounced in the dirt.  Chavez's fielding wizardry made up for it, in terms of performance, but wasn't that a huge warning sign for the team and Chavez?

Remember, this isn't some borderline guy on a year-to-year contract.  This is a player in whom they have invested a great deal of money, especially by this team's standards, and counting on for years to come.

But Chavez said he didn't want to have surgery, didn't think it would help, wanted to play when he could, et cetera.  Did Chavez refuse to have surgery that would have prevented his shoulder from degenerating to the point where it can't really be fixed?  What did the A's medical staff and outside doctors recommend?  The player complained of extreme discomfort, and anyone with eyes knew it was affecting his performance.  Did the medical folks really just tell him he should do nothing?  And at what point does Billy Beane, the guy who signed him to the big-money deal so he could be a cornerstone for the team, get involved?

The A's and Chavez seem to have used hope as a plan.  But it must have been clear, after he finally had surgery, that Chavez's shoulder woes were far more serious.  Chavez is saying the shoulder is "shredded," and that it's so bad that there is nothing that can be done.

Beane knew that last fall.  He knew that his third baseman was almost certainly not coming back, not just for part of 2008, but ever.  What has he done about it?  In all of the trades he has made to rebuild the team, has he acquired a third baseman who can help now or in the future?  No. 

There was some discussion on last night's thread about the team's obligation to disclose the severity of a player's injury.  Full disclosure makes sense if you're trying to trade a player.  You can't, or shouldn't, be hiding damaged goods.  But full disclosure is not necessary if you're hiding the vulnerabilities of your own player.  Beane could have used the opportunity to add third base prospects.  I realize prospects can be traded for other prospects, but now everyone knows of the A's crying need for a third baseman.  They didn't know before.  They do now, and that will make a trade more difficult.

Chavez, even as a DH, cannot be counted upon.  How effective would he be?  Will the shoulder make it impossible to hit for any sort of consistent power, or play at all?  The A's, at this stage, can't pencil him in as a designated hitter - not this year, not next year, not ever.  He's Rich Harden, but without the superstar potential and with a bigger contract.

For all of the agitation about the team's recent swoon, I can't be too upset over the 2008 performance.  This is actually a little better than I expected, although the recent trend is ominous.  But I was hoping that Chavez would be able to work his way back into game shape and recapture some of the form of his early career so he could be ready to go in 2009.  If other things went well, perhaps the A's could contend next season.

I don't think that is a realistic goal now.  A Duchscherer trade still doesn't appeal to me, but I can see it now.  The team is at least two years away from serious contention.

But I don't think the A's should be left off the hook on the Chavez fiasco.  This was an organizational failure and a huge waste of money.

Edited to add:  Will Carroll's 2004 piece in Slate (link is in the comments) makes a good case for why Chavez and the A's might have been reluctant to pursue to surgical route.  [The piece doesn't mention Chavez in particular, but it seems to fit the situation, even if Carroll's article is mostly about pitchers.]  This dovetails with the biggest criticism of my FanPost, that I am making a bunch of hindsight-influenced assumptions without knowledge of what medical diagnosis and advice was given to Chavez and the team.

But let's assume that my critics are right, that surgery probably wouldn't have helped, and that Chavez and the A's suspected as much all along.  That doesn't negate my second point, that the A's failed to take action to fill what was likely to be a gaping hole in the lineup and on the field.  In fact, if the A's knew that Chavez's comeback was questionable at best, it strengthens my argument that the team needed to acquire a replacement.  The A's failed to do that, despite trading away a lot of Major League talent over the past year. 

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Beautifully put, bear88

One would have hoped that, at the very least, the “next A’s 3B” would be in the organization by now and within a year of being “major league ready”. Instead we have lost Haren, Swisher, Harden, and Blanton and still have no idea who will play 3B from 2009 on. One of the better bets we have is Adrian Cardenas, and he is a 19-year old who does not hit for power.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 27, 2008 12:45 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

most 19 year olds

don’t hit for power.

ps: cardenas does hit for power… had 9 bombs and 30 doubles last season… and he is the best 2b prospect in the minors on any team.

Cust is the new Jaha.

by johnjahafanclub on Jul 27, 2008 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really don't see where the blame on the A's is with regard to Chavez' health

As you point out, Chavez said he didn’t want the surgery. Unless you’re advocating a return to chattel slavery, an employer can’t force someone under contract to undergo surgery.

Sure, the A’s should have made better contingency plans; I don’t dispute that.

My theory on the real backstory behind the Chavez/Tejada decision, and the downturn in the team’s general health? I suspect (and this is sheer speculation on my part) that Beane saw the steroid problem second-hand, knew that it was going to be trouble down the road, disagreed with the Alderson-Davis see-no-evil approach, and decided to (pun intended) clear the team of PEDs. He went to Chavvy and Tejada separately, asked each if he would commit to staying off the juice—and he extended the one who agreed to do so.

Who needs competence as long as everyone smiles? @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 27, 2008 12:58 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Blame

If Chavez ignored medical advice to deal with his shoulder problem, then I blame him for trashing his own career.

If Chavez ignored medical advice to deal with his shoulder problem, and the team couldn’t change his mind, then I blame the A’s – at minimum – for failing to make contingency plans.

by bear88 on Jul 27, 2008 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Steroids

The point about Tejada makes sense, and I wonder if Billy knew about Tejada’s extra 2 years of age (or had some sense of the issue.)

I do not like to cast aspersions without evidence, and I’ve always had a soft spot for Chavy, but the man was wierdly large in that Clemens/Troy Glaus kind of a way. Whether the “stay off the juice” conversation ever happened, I don’t know (nor am I sure that Chavy stopped before Tejada), but one wonders how that fits into everything. I was able to go down on the field once to watch BP and I just couldn’t believe how big the guy was, more like a linebacker than a 3B.

by DiegoSegui on Jul 27, 2008 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chavez was big

compared to when? Was he bigger than the last time you were down on the field watching BP? Were there linebackers present? I’m just trying to understand how someone can see an athlete in his physical prime once up close, then mentally compare him to guys you probably have not seen up close, and assume drug use. In other words, it seems you are casting aspersions with very little evidence.

by scatterbrian on Jul 28, 2008 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tejada

The A’s DID know about Miggy’s age. I know some people who worked in the Front Office. Billy had no idea HOW old Tejada was, but he knew there was a discrepancy.

And I’ve agreed with the steroids theory all along, like monkeyball stated, but the Tejada apologists would chase me out of every conversation. It’s satisfying to know I’m not the only one anymore.

by noava22 on Jul 29, 2008 7:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

steroids

some of us may not like to speculate about which a’s players may be using steroids publicly (like on AN).
personally, i had been telling my friends tejada was probably on the juice since like 2000-2001.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jul 29, 2008 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm surprised to see monkeyball defending the A's in this

But I agree. Well, not with the X-Files-ish last paragraph, but with the rest of it.

What I object to is this simplistic notion that surgery, if only the selfish wusses would consent to it, is some sort of magical solution. Will Carroll of BP is a bit of a blowhard at times, but he knows more about the medical side than… well, any of us. He points out that surgery is a last resort, not a first resort or a cure-all. Not only does it knock a player out for an extended period of time, but surgery itself constitutes a substantial injury to the body, and there’s plenty of variability and uncertainty in the results. Generally, if you can rehab, you rehab. It’s not a clear thing, where all the brave and morally upstanding patriotic sorts intuitively understand the correct course of (surgical) action, while the sniveling cowardly terrorist symps betray their true nature by shrinking from the touch of the knife.

I’m not even saying that the A’s haven’t done anything incompetent with respect to Chavez – even well-run organizations occasionally do incompetent things. Even if no incompetence was involved, it’s clear that the results that have been achieved could hardly be worse, so it is highly likely that some better option could have been chosen from the decision tree if we could revisit the choices made over the years. But it’s only with hindsight that we can say with confidence that the course that was taken did not work and that some other course may have worked better.

The idea that we can, with the few rather partial drabs of information that leak out to us here and there, can confidently accuse the A’s of clear and obvious incompetence, is frankly pretty goddamn silly, although it may edify our anger and frustration.

by Faust on Jul 27, 2008 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Truth ... is ... OUTTA THERE!!!

< / Krukow >

Who needs competence as long as everyone smiles? @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 27, 2008 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Isn't that "the other Kuiper"??

with that “outta (t)here!!” call??

"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer

by One won lost won on Jul 27, 2008 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

dammit

Who needs competence as long as everyone smiles? @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 27, 2008 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jul 27, 2008 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

being a sports fan is all about hindsight bias

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jul 29, 2008 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

a healthy baisley

wouldve likely got a chance and was doing well in AAA, but for the 2nd straight season he’s had an injury

but the same gus have been talked about gamel, larohe, headley, stewart, etc the price seems to be high or teams unwilling to give them up

looking for other 3b prospects, here’s one…

allen craig went to cal, now with cards in AA

http://web.minorleaguebaseball...&pid=501800

Drafted out of California, Allen Craig has been on the fast track in the Cardinal’s farm system. An 8th round pick who signed for a paltry $15,000. A member of the 2002 US Junior National team (along with luminaries like Ian Kennedy, Chad Billingsley and Lastings Milledge), Craig had several injury setbacks during his college career. The Cardinals asked him to lose some weight entering this season and he reported to camp having lost 10-15 pounds after a new conditioning program. He went on to have a breakout year, cementing himself in the top 20 Cardinal prospects.

http://futureredbirds.com/2007…le-allen-craig/

by Asfan4ever723 on Jul 27, 2008 12:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It's funny, I just came across him yesterday in a scan of prospects

and asked (on another thread) what people knew about him as a legit 3B prospect. Seems to have very good power, so-so defense. I wonder what the A’s scouts think of him and what the Cards would want in order to part with him. They have Glaus, and they’re 3 out in the division looking to “win now”.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 27, 2008 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i blame crosby...

his fluke AAA season gave false hope that he was the heir apparent to tejada

which allowed beane to choose one to keep, obviously chavez

crosby messes up ellis in that collision, a yr of playing time. plus his future value as a SS w/ the shoulder injury

which in result later forced A’s to draft pennington later on not knowing ellis long term durability

and we can go back to the 2001 draft, taking crosby over david wright

in closing, its time to dump crosby!!

by Asfan4ever723 on Jul 27, 2008 1:07 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes

Time for Crosby to be gone

by Trainman on Jul 27, 2008 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that Crosby made Tejada the one to go

A’s braintrust was certain Crosby was the next Derek Jeter/Cal Ripkin Jr, with 30 HR pop for ten seasons in a row.

"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer

by One won lost won on Jul 27, 2008 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those are some bold statements ...

Questions ….
1. What type of surgery should Chavez have gotten?
2. What is its probability of success?
3. What risks and downsides did it have? (all surgeries have risks and downsides)

Here’s another one …
4. Which season prior to last year should Chavez have given up on, despite the team being in contention?
2006 - when the team made the playoffs, thanks in large part to a stellar September (.910 OPS) from Chavez that carried over into a stellar post season?
2005? Chavez was healthy enough to play 160 games and the team was in tight contention down the stretch - within 1 game of the division lead as late as Sept 20th.
2004? This was the first season that Chavvy went on the DL, so the trend hadn’t really developed. The team was in a tight race, falling only a horrendous 8th inning from Jim Mecir and Ricardo Rincon away from the postseason.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Jul 27, 2008 1:13 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Answers

1—I am not a doctor, nor I play one online. I don’t know what surgery Chavez could or should have had. I know shoulder surgery was seriously considered in past years. And I know that his shoulder is in bad enough shape now that he can’t throw or possibly even hit.

2— I don’t know. Perhaps Chavez’s injuries were so bad that even surgery after the 2004 or 2005 seasons wouldn’t have helped. But his past performance suggests that his shoulder has gotten worse since then. He was able to play then, and be effective at times. Now he can’t play.

3—How much more downside do you want? Chavez is basically useless to the A’s now, and his career as an elite baseball player is over. I suppose surgery could have made things worse. But going forward, short of death, it’s hard to see how.

4—This is a fair question. But in past years, I never had the impression that shoulder surgery would have kept him out an entire season. Maybe he would have missed a few months of the following season. Maybe I’m wrong, and surgery would have kept him out an entire year.

But it is the team’s job to make these sorts of judgments on players with long-term deals. Fans always think short term. A baseball team, and player with a career to consider, to have to think about whether playing on a bum shoulder and doing nothing about it is really such a good idea.

by bear88 on Jul 27, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well ...

1. Doctors, trainers and others who have more knowledge and experience on these sort of things than you or I where intimately involved in the decision making process. The outcome is what it is - “rank incompetence” means you have a problem with the decision making process - not the outcome. if you don’t actually know anything, what-so-ever, about that process, well then …
2. All surgeries have probabilities for success. Some, like appendectomies, have very high success rates, others, like kidney transplants, are much, much lower. Complex shoulder surgeries are somewhere in between. There are severe risks - in that a.) surgery may not fix the problem; b.) it might actually make the situation considerably worse. Ask any doctor - you should never have surgery if you can avoid it.
3. We now know that the results did not work out as favorably as we might have hoped. There was no way of knowing that then. But, you have to realize, this is basically a worse case scenario for this plan of attack, given what the team knew at the time.
4. 2008 is the first year Eric Chavez has not been the A’s opening day starter at 3b since he came into the league. He has always been able to get healthy over the off season. Prior to 2007, he was also always able to come back and be productive after a month or so off in season. Given that is the case, there is little to no chance any team/player would have immediately opted for surgery in season or at the very beginning of the off season. When he finally had surgery, it took him about 8 months to recover. Given the realities of the situation, having the surgery, then would have almost inevitably made him all but unavailable for the following season.

You always, always, always opt for medical treatment/rehab over surgery if you have the option. It does not always work, but surgery is inherently very risky. Just because we know that this line of attack didn’t work out so well, we did get a couple of extra solid seasons out of Chavez that could have potentially been lost if the surgery went poorly—and that is despite the fact that the rehab route went more or less as poorly as it could have.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Jul 27, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're doing what you accuse me of doing

You don’t know any more about the “process” than I do. But you and I both watched baseball games, read Chavez’s comments about his shoulder at the time – not just now, after the fact. He had trouble throwing, complained about it, said it had been bothering him for years, but didn’t want to have surgery. His performance has been declining since 2004.

I simply don’t agree that “there was no way of knowing that” the results would be poor. There was every reason to think that an unaddressed shoulder problem on a person who uses his shoulder all of the time in a high-stress occupation would get worse. That’s the problem I have.

You also make an assumption about the competence of the A’s training and medical staff that I don’t share. In fact, Billy Beane didn’t share it, which is why he made changes in that area of the organization. (Those changes may have been cosmetic, but they suggest he thought there was a problem.)

When Chavez had surgery, he didn’t just have shoulder surgery, he had a series of surgeries to deal with a host of problems. The recovery time for surgery a few years ago, when he wasn’t always dealing with a balky back, would presumably have been shorter.

If it’s you or me, I would agree that surgery should be avoided. But we aren’t high-level athletes, being paid millions of dollars. If you’ve got a player whose performance is suffering because of a bum shoulder, and it’s obvious even to non-doctors like me, doesn’t it make sense to do everything possible to make sure that it’s fixed?

It’s fair for you to question whether shoulder surgery two or three years ago would have helped, or might have hurt. Surgery isn’t magic. But in making your argument, you are relying on a worst-case scenerio: Surgery would have been a disaster, rendering Chavez unable to play at all.

by bear88 on Jul 27, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not relying on that worse case scenerio ...

I’m saying that unless you have some idea of what those odds are - which neither of us do - criticisms are preposterous. We know that R&R did not work. At the time, we had know way of knowing that, though. Plenty of athletes have gone the R&R method, with fantastic results.

I’m not saying that one choice or the other is necessarily correct—I’m saying that criticism based on outcome not process is always preposterous.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Jul 27, 2008 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That leaves us unable to criticize at all

Using your logic, we don’t know all about the process, so criticism is inherently unfair.

But fans never find out about medical evaluations and confidential discussions among player, doctors and team – certainly not when decisions are being made. All we have to go on is what we see (declining performance, throwing problems) and what we read (Chavez’s complaints about his shoulder, the debate over surgery).

I remember Chavez opting not to have surgery in favor of rehab, and then the problems cropped up again the following year. The approach seemed to be to hope the problem would go away and fail to make a contingency plan.

That seems like a lousy “process.”

by bear88 on Jul 27, 2008 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whether or not surgery was the smartest way to go

is difficult to say. But whether playing 3B with a shoulder that was being “shredded” with every throw was almost certainly stupid.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 27, 2008 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But when did he find out it was "shredded"?

Remember the situation with Dotel’s elbow? None of the doctors (including, IIRC, non-A’s doctors) thought that he needed surgery—they thought that the MRIs and office tests showed that the elbow could be rehabbed. He insisted on surgery, and it turned out to be much, much worse than anyone had suspected.

Maybe that’s the situation with Chavez’s shoulder—it’s possible that the extensive damage simply didn’t show up on any tests, and doctors concluded reasonably that he could keep playing.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Jul 27, 2008 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's a pretty easy test for that -

You put one “shredded wheat” on the patient’s shoulder, and if it falls off he needs “Tommy John” surgery. If it doesn’t fall off, he needs “Scott McGregor” surgery. Either way, you become a left-handed with an odd delivery but a lot of wins.

Isn’t it ironic how pitchers come back from Tommy John surgery throwing 95 MPH, yet Tommy John never threw that hard?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 27, 2008 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah! But actually he did!

OK, I don’t know if he threw 95. But he was a hard thrower for the tiny fragment of his career that came before his “Tommy John surgery.” Since he was kind of the prototype, they didn’t have the techniques down pat yet, and he lost a lot of velocity, whereas now pitchers have a very good chance of losing no velocity at all. And since the overwhelming majority of his career came after the surgery, no one remembers that he ever threw hard at all.

by Faust on Jul 27, 2008 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lou Gehrig died of Lou Gehrig's Disease!

What are the odds of that happening??!!!

"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer

by One won lost won on Jul 27, 2008 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

QOTM, July 1941

"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams

by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 28, 2008 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, of course

the outcome doesn’t matter, all that matters is the process. As long as the “process” is correct, who cares if the patient dies?

What if your precious “process” is wrong? What if the people enacting the “process” are incompetent? Nope, it’s just all random variation, bad luck.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jul 27, 2008 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes he played 160 games in 2005.

Carlos Beltran played 151 games, also in 2005. Only a blind man would have believed Beltran was healthy.

The “trend” hadn’t really developed in 2004? How about dealing with the injury when it occurs, instead of waiting for a “trend” to develope by repeating playing through it? What season should he have sat out? When it became clear that he needed to sit out a season.

Yes, all surgeries have risks and downsides. Not getting surgery also has risks and downsides. Playing through injuries also has risks and downsides.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jul 27, 2008 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Dealing with it" ...

if only it were that simple. In medicine you never just “deal with something”. Surgery might have fixed it - it might not have - it might have made the problem worse. Unless you have some idea what those odds are, relative to the odds of rehab doing the same, it is preposterous to make such criticisms.

It is always better to avoid surgery if you can. Always. Chavez was able to play 2 and a half more productive and mostly healthy (healthy enough to play) seasons - ask any doctor - avoiding surgery was almost certainly the right call, given what they knew at the time.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Jul 27, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course ti is not so simple

And I never said that he had to have surgery. If he had to sit out a whole year rehabbing under the direction of the A’s trainers, because the A’s don’t know what the players do during the offseason, then sit out the whole season.

It is always better to avoid surgery if you are NOT a professional athlete who’s livelihood depends on your body being able to perform at a high level. If you spend most of your day in front of a computer, it doesn’t really matter if you have frayed labrum, an athritic acromioclavicular joint, an instable glenohumeral joint. If you are just a weekend warrior, it doesn’t matter so much if you have pain in the patellar region of your knee when flexing your knee. You just avoid aggravating the damaged joint.

Professional athletes are NOT computer programmers / lawyers / accountants / stock brokers.

Chavez played 2 and a half more years well below his established “true” talent level, and is facing the end of his career at an age when many of his peers are still in their primes.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jul 27, 2008 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If a "normal" person

tears his hamstring running, or his pec / bicep tendon bench pressing, unless the injury is very serious, a grade 3 rupture, the likelihood is that his / her doctor will recommend rehab / rest. Because, for one, rehab / rest is cheaper.

An athlete, or someone who is serious about sports, who competes seriously, will almost certainly be weighing surgery.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jul 27, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alternate Question #4:

Which off-season should Chavez have given up on? Because that’s the question that gets to the competence of his care management strategy…both regarding the A’s possible advice to Chavez, and his choices in treatment.

Those were the reasons and that was New York, we were running for the money and the flesh.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jul 27, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not "rank incompetence"

It was a reasonable choice that didn’t play out so well. It looks particularly bad now, with Chavez seemingly at the end of his career, but in the larger view it’s not nearly so bad as you make it out to be.

We got a couple of decent years out of him. The contract was big but not crippling. Not a big deal.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Jul 27, 2008 1:21 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It is a reasonable choice to ride your best player

through injuries, to the point that he declined quickly, and by age 30 / 31 is looking at retirement?

If that is the A’s attitude towards injuries, I’m not surprised that the team is yearly struggling with “bad luck” injuries.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jul 27, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was a reasonable choice to...

...choose Chavez over Tejada, though how the injuries have been handled has been questionable.

I do feel that the team has dropped the ball by not having a legitimate 3B prospect in the system by now. Even if Chavez had stayed healthy, they should be looking toward the possibility that he wouldn’t be here at the end of his current contract.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Jul 27, 2008 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was a reasonable choice to

choose Chavez over Tejada.

It was not a reasonable choice to ride Chavez until he broke down completely.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jul 27, 2008 11:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

Though I’ve always been under the impression that the resistence to surgery was Chavez’. The team still could have rested him from time to time if they felt he was pushing it too much.

This is kind of a pet-peeve of mine. Whether it be a pitcher who is struggling, or Jason Kendall wanting to play every game, or any other player, it’s management’s job to protect the team and their investment by making sure players stay healthy and fresh and they should have no qualms about overruling a player if they feel the player is being too macho for his own good.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Jul 28, 2008 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

he said he hurt his shoulder in the minors

Which didnt affect his performance his first 5+ years. So I wouldn’t doubt a comeback.

by skalordes on Jul 27, 2008 2:01 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Looking forwards instead of backwards,

what do people suspect is the wisest course of action for Chavez to take if he has a labrum that is somewhere between “frayed” and “shredded”?

I know we’re not doctors, nor are we privy to all the medical info, but we ARE bloggers, which means we get to engage in irresponsible speculation for the amusement of ourselves and others.

If you were Chavez in this situation, what direction do you think you would most consider going right now?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 27, 2008 4:08 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If I'm Chavvy

I’m mentally preparing myself for calling it a career. But I’m gonna take it real slow.

This Will Carroll article mentions that when it comes to labrums there’s really no difference between a “fray” and a “tear.” With that, I’m going to assume that “shredded” just means a bad tear.

The key issue seems to be is the shoulder operable or not. Slusser report that according to Chavez “the main problem, the way he understands it, is that the labrum is so severely torn that it cannot be repaired.” Soupy Sales says that “he does not know whether surgery has been discounted as an option.”

If the shoulder is in fact inoperable, Chavez is done. No coming back as anything but a base coach. No amount of rest and rehab will change the fact that his labrum is badly torn. Continued baseball activity will just make the situation worse, and Chavy’s got the rest of his life to think of.

If there’s some possibility of repairing the labrum, then you take it extra slow. If I’m Chavy, I’m looking at trying to have a healthy shoulder, regardless of the baseball effects. If all goes well and he can play again in 2 years (at any position), then great. If not, at least he tried.

Needless to say, if I’m the A’s I consider Chavy’s contract a sunk cost (whether they keep him on the roster or not) and plan for a future without him. It’s pretty unlikely he ever takes the field in the green and gold again.

The glare was not practiced. I would get into the game situations, and when that happens, there comes a level of concentration that most can only imagine but can never achieve. You become what you are doing, and that is what you see on my face. -Dave Stewart

by Hegenberger Road on Jul 27, 2008 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chavy has a lot to gain and nothing to lose, financially,

to take it very slow – he gets paid while he is resting, as opposed to if he voluntarily retires. I don’t think Chavy is particularly “money oriented” as athletes go, but he does have a family and he is 30 years old without a guaranteed future at anything. The A’s could be royally screwed if Chavez sits out 2009, maybe some of 2010, all to play a few games at the tail end of his guaranteed contract and then retire.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 27, 2008 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The A’s could be royally screwed if Chavez sits out 2009, maybe some of 2010, all to play a few games at the tail end of his guaranteed contract and then retire.

Yeah.

I’d hope that if Chavvy decided to try to come back, knowing the timeline and the long odds, that he’d offer some kind of contract buy-out or restructuring. But that would be incredibly generous.

The glare was not practiced. I would get into the game situations, and when that happens, there comes a level of concentration that most can only imagine but can never achieve. You become what you are doing, and that is what you see on my face. -Dave Stewart

by Hegenberger Road on Jul 27, 2008 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Considering his post-baseball earning potential isn't much

(as he was drafted after high school) I can’t imagine him walking away from any money. I know I wouldn’t.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Jul 27, 2008 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please add

“even though it would be the right thing to do.”

I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.

by Vacafan on Jul 27, 2008 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why would it be the right thing to do?

It would be the selfless thing to do, but selfless and right don’t always equate.

Certainly, taking the money the A’s promised him isn’t the wrong thing to do.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Jul 27, 2008 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's ridiculous

It’s not Chavez’s responsibility to insure the team against a career-ending injury, it’s the team’s responsibility. They signed the contract, they knew the risks.

He’s obligated to make a good faith effort to rehab as a player, but if it’s not effective and he can’t come back, there’s no reason why he should donate his salary to the Wolff Fund. If he feels bad about earning it, donate it to a cause that could really use the money.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jul 27, 2008 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Chavez thinks he can't manage playing again, there is an option of sorts.

He can essentially retire to the permanent 60 Day DL. If he did that, assuming the A’s didn’t cheap out on the insurance, could have the contract covered by insurance and get out of paying a large portion of it themselves, with the insurance covering most of Chavez’s salary.

facepalm.jpg

by Zonis on Jul 27, 2008 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Heck, we could even name the 60-Day DL after Chavy

as kind of a tribute – and to show how injured the A’s are by naming a DL after someone.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 27, 2008 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ken Korach sez:

“This injury is brought to you by the Eric Chavez 60-Day Disabled list, sheltering injured ballplayers since 2008”

"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams

by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 28, 2008 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

...and then,

after the injury when the crew goes to commercial, we can play one of a series of vignettes called “At Home With Eric Chavez,” which details his post-baseball activities, such as growing tomatoes, cashing large paychecks, and a lot of drunken weeping.

"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams

by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 28, 2008 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Et tu, Ken?

Yesterday, Korach was “day to day” with goodness knows what.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 28, 2008 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm by no means...

...a starry-eyed player sychophant who believes the players are somehow more special and deserving of financial gain than anybody else, but even I don’t think any player should give anything back in case of injury.

If this were so bad for the owners, one would think they’d dig in their heels and refuse to give guaranteed contracts.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Jul 29, 2008 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unless he's a total financial idiot...

...post baseball earnings won’t be an issue.

I wouldn’t walk away from the money, either, btw.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Jul 29, 2008 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a great article

and it basically says that, as of 2004, doctors had no way to diagnose a torn labrum confidently, or to treat it effectively once they saw it during surgery.

Dr. Anthony Tropiano, a top baseball arm doc, says the best available treatment option today is to do nothing. “We call it conservative treatment,” he says, “but that’s just a euphemism for a little rehab and a lot of prayer.”

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Jul 27, 2008 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah I liked it to

but I hesitated to quote it more fully because it was from 2004. I wonder if the medicine’s gotten any better than “rehab and a lot of prayer” since then?

The glare was not practiced. I would get into the game situations, and when that happens, there comes a level of concentration that most can only imagine but can never achieve. You become what you are doing, and that is what you see on my face. -Dave Stewart

by Hegenberger Road on Jul 27, 2008 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The article is excellent

and is as good a rebuttal as I’ve seen to what I have written about the decisions of Chavez and the A’s.

The timing of the article is relevant, because it goes to the question of what Chavez should have been doing about his shoulder in 2004, 2005 i.e. when the article was written.

If Chavez was told, “You’re probably screwed, but should try to rehab it,” then his decisions make a lot more sense. The A’s decision not to push the issue would also make more sense.

The article also explains the labrum problem’s impact on hitters, explaining how it has sapped power from guys like Shawn Green.

That said, if that’s what Chavez and the A’s were told, it makes the team’s decision not to start stockpiling third basemen since then make even less sense.

by bear88 on Jul 27, 2008 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

this guy is an incompetent doctor, i know way more about this medical stuff than him.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jul 27, 2008 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Me too - I've watched "House,"

heard of “Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman,” and I may have done Doogie Howser once when I was drunk. Or it might have been Dr. Quinn.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 27, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You do know that it's DOO-gie, not DoGG-ie?

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Jul 27, 2008 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do now.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 27, 2008 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I also now realize it's "Howser" and not "Bowser"

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 27, 2008 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Howser?

"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams

by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 28, 2008 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

or maybe it was Bowser?

"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams

by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 28, 2008 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

or maybe it was Bowzer?

"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams

by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 28, 2008 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ask a silly question, but...

You’re a doctor, right? Or a med student?

by Tizoc on Jul 27, 2008 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, I think he's a sarcast.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Jul 27, 2008 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Christ, what a sarcast-hole

Who needs competence as long as everyone smiles? @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 27, 2008 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chavy totally has lupus.

There's no textbook for how to treat a geriatric tapir.

by Poppy on Jul 27, 2008 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm glad you didn't say "shingles"

because shingles are way over my head.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 27, 2008 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mine were a pain in the neck

2001.
Man…painfulllllll! Yes.

"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer

by One won lost won on Jul 27, 2008 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ITS NOT LUPIS!!!!!

Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom

by designatedforassignment on Jul 27, 2008 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No way to diagnose a torn labrum confidently

other than exploratory surgery. AFAIK, there’s still no way to diagnose a torn labrum confidently, other than exploratory surgery. The various flexibility / strength / apprehension tests are useful, not conclusive.

If anyone is curious about shoulder injuries in sport, diagnosis, treatment, surgery, rehab, I suggest Shoulder Injuries in Sport, JV Ciullo. The author has consulted for various NBA and NHL teams, IIRC.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jul 27, 2008 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

just cut the fucking thing open

and put some rubber bands in there.

He’ll be fine.

"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams

by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 28, 2008 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Staples? Yeah we got that."

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 28, 2008 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

just cut the what open?!?

Who needs competence as long as everyone smiles? @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 28, 2008 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Slice Chavy's urethera - can't do any harm!

{Translation: Can’t do ME any harm}

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 28, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chavez's shoulder has been an issue since High School, I believe.

It didn’t really effect him through the minors, and had some discomfort after making the Big team. He never got it fixed on his own. And when he tried to bulk up and strained both his arm lifting weights, that kind of put the cascade into motion.

Chavez started compensating by relying more on his shoulder, which in turn got even more injured. That led to his back getting injured as well.

The A’s medical staff is known for its incompetence, that is true, but remember that Chavez had almost his whole career to fix the initial problem, his shoulder, and consciously decided not to.

The problem when comparing the decision to sign Tejada or Chavez is that Tejada was famous for his durability, whereas the A’s knew about Chavez’s should issues.

facepalm.jpg

by Zonis on Jul 27, 2008 5:22 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think we hoped that would be Hannahan (it isn't).

It also sounds like Beane has at least looked into LaRoche (who would be).

You can’t force a player to have surgery, and remember that his struggles allowed ‘06 to happen. We had a real World Series shot that year, and wouldn’t have if Chavez hadn’t gutted it out. I think the analogy is Schilling’s bloody sock (although Chavez probably did more damage and we didn’t get a title).

I wouldn’t trade our ‘06 run for a possibly-healthy Chavez in ‘09 (and I doubt he would either).

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Jul 27, 2008 5:30 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The main difference is that Chavez didn't

put catsup all over the right shoulder portion of his jersey, and didn’t look into the camera to say, ”...And make sure you vote for John McCain.”

I don’t think the A’s seriously thought Hannahan would be anything besides filler. Why they haven’t targeted a 2010 SS or 2009 3Bman in the last two years of wheeling and dealing, though, is beyond me.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 27, 2008 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hannahan had some promise (3rd round pick)

He could have been serviceable, instead he isn’t.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Jul 27, 2008 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

All I can say is

waaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:’(

by mrod on Jul 27, 2008 5:50 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Let's not forget,

all of this discussion is based on comments from Chavvy himself. And I’ve never seen an athlete be more pessimistic in his public comments than Chavvy. I’m not baggin on him – in some ways it’s a refreshing antithesis of the always rah-rah jock talk. But he has consistently said stuff that is negative. It is his speech, more than his actions, that has led to the refrain of “not enough heart” (yes I know, often in jest) here on AN. I think it’s his way of lessening expectations, but I expect he will continue to work hard at continuing to rehab and, as skalordes said above, I wouldn’t rule out a comeback.

by sslinger on Jul 27, 2008 11:40 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

You're Playing Monday Morning Quarterback

Nice post, but what you are stating is obvious. It’s real easy to look back now and say Beane should have made contingency plans and perhaps you’re right. However, the A’s assumed, as did everyone else that Chavez would be the third basemen for the A’s for many years to come. The fact that is hasn’t worked out is just plain “bad luck” and Beane is now forced into doing something about it. His legacy will now be defined by how he deals with this and many other tough scenarios now facing this team.

All About The Exclamation Points!!!

by Goldzone on Jul 28, 2008 2:54 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Beane's legacy has already been defined

I suggest reading the autobiography Moneyball to learn more about it.

Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's

by iamawesomer on Jul 28, 2008 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Beane not done yet!

I would think Billy Beane would not like to hear that his legacy has already been defined. Moneyball was just a few chapters in his legacy. He would probably say he has a few more chapters to write. Or if it has been defined, what is the point of him staying around? He could then just move onto something else and turn things over to the Assistant GM. In the coming years there’s more to come. Stayed tuned…

All About The Exclamation Points!!!

by Goldzone on Jul 28, 2008 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is a very informative post

I never was a big Chavez fan, but it would seem we will have to get ready for life without Chavez. So where do we go from here? I don’t see much potential with what we have here, or down below. Maybe Wayne Gross is available.

Stomp,em, stomp the piss out of em.Then pound the budweiser after the game. Joe Schultz Seattle Piolts Mgr 1969

by billyball1981 on Jul 28, 2008 6:32 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Call me crazy...

...but I had a random tbought. I wonder how hard it would be to switch his throwing arm. While he may never become a great 3B again, perhaps it would allow him to play 1B? I’ve spent the occasional (bored) day writing with my left instead of my right, and we’ve all thrown at least a few throws with the opposite hand. I wonder how much dedication it would take to switch and become serviceable?

On the A's bandwagon since 1986...

by Vaillant on Jul 30, 2008 12:24 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

LOL - your idea is different, I'll grant you that!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 30, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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