New Suitor for Street?
by Morgasm on Jul 18, 2008 10:03 PM PDT
Email
PrintAs per mlbtraderumors.com.
11:34pm: Haudricourt says the Brewers dispatched their top special assistant to watch the A's play the Yankees. Haudricourt speculates that the Brewers might have an eye on Huston Street, who is under team control through 2010. Street's had an off-year, mainly due to a rising home run rate.
I'm unsure why the Brew Crew is in the hunt for Street, then again, I don't really pay attention to them.
So, who in the Brewers system would you ask for in a deal for Street?
UPDATE!
Street To Brewers Could Be Done Deal
Brewers beat writer Tom Haudricourt thinks Oakland closer Huston Street is Milwaukee-bound. He says the word on the street is outfielder Darren Ford, 22, is the price. Ford was pulled from Brevard County's lineup before its game against Clearwater.
Baseball America did not list Ford among the Brewers' top 10 prospects before this season, but he was named the organization's fastest baserunner and best defensive outfielder. So far this year in the Florida State League, Ford is hitting .232 with a .321 OBP and a .307 SLG. He's got 44 steals in 87 games.
Second edit: Its not Street.
WSSP 1250 AM in Milwaukee is reporting that Milwaukee Brewers and the San Francisco Giants are close to a deal that would send Milwaukee's Double A Catcher Angel Salome, Single A prospect Outfielder/speedster Darren Ford, and Triple A First Baseman Brad Nelson to the Giants for Second Baseman Ray Durham, Reliever Jack Taschner, and a PTBNL.
Third Edit:
Haudricourt says the Brewers scouted Street but the scouts were not impressed. He's not coming to Milwaukee.
Better hope the Rays will take him.
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So the Top Brewers guy is watching Street, and the Rays are interested in Street and Murton
Get a good deal, Billy!
The Brewers and Rays both really need closer/setup help, so it makes sense. The Brewers might match up better for Street than the Rays actually, as while I don’t know much about the Brewers system (other than we all wanted to do Street for LaPorta, but can’t anylonger), the Rays system has a lot of pitching and a bunch of dissapointing or injured offensive players.
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From the Brewers we might get Mat Gamel
He’s their best hitting prospect, and one of the best in the minors. He’s absolutely exploded this year.
I have a hunch that Murton isn’t starting because he’s going to be flipped in another deal, and the A’s are lukewarm on him. That explains Emil Brown starting over him.
If the A’s think Murton isn’t very good, and think that he’d pull an 0-20 if he starting 6 straight games, then they’d rather just sit him and flip him to another team in a week, than risk watching his value go down in the starting lineup by playing every day.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me." -Wedding Crashers
by notsellingjeans on Jul 18, 2008 10:10 PM PDT reply actions
Gamel is the guy I bet
if we deal with the Brewers. The A’s need a 3B in the system desperately, and he’s a top hitter.
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Maybe...
Snap up Escobar too?
I don’t know what his stats are, but apparently he’s a SS…
Lemme check.
'Who's that guy we had to release last year because he robbed a bank?'- Billy Beane
Sean Gallagher is my hero.
I'd love Escobar. I doubt they'd consider Gamel for Street
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 19, 2008 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions
If the Brew Crew is in "It's now or never" mode
I would love this trade!
And yes—let Murton play!!
Green Hulk Fists
by oaklandSMASH on Jul 18, 2008 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Brewers top 20 from Sickles
Milwaukee Brewers Top 20 Prospects for 2008All grades are EXTREMELY PRELIMINARY and subject to change.
Matt LaPorta, OF, Grade B+ (great bat, glove??)
Manny Parra, LHP, Grade B+ (a really good prospect who needs more attention)
Mat Gamel, 3B, Grade B
Jeremy Jeffress, RHP, Grade B (assumes he stops smoking dope)
Jonathan Lucroy, C, Grade B-
Taylor Green, 3B, Grade B-
Cole Gillespie, OF, Grade C+
Alicides Escobar, SS, Grade C+ (overrated by lots of people IMHO)
Caleb Gindl, OF, Grade C+ (very promising, want more data)
Angel Salome, C, Grade C+
Michael Brantley, OF, Grade C+ (a personal favorite I admit)
Lorenzo Cain, OF, Grade C+
Zach Braddock, LHP, Grade C+
Robert Bryson, RHP, Grade C+
Hernan Iribarren, 2B, Grade C+
Brent Brewer, SS, Grade C (yes I know all about his tools. He is so damn raw that I don’t believe in him yet.)
R.J. Seidel, RHP, Grade C
Zack Jackson, LHP, Grade C
Cody Scarpetta, RHP, Grade C
Dan Merklinger, LHP, Grade C
Others Grade Cs who are interchangeable with those above include Chris Cody, Chris Errecart, Eric Farris, Darren Ford, Steve Hammond, Robert Hinton, Brendan Katin, Brad Nelson, Lou Palmisano, Mark Rogers and Vinny Rottino.
Again, don’t get all pissy about exact placement on this list. The grades are more important than someone being ranked 15th instead of 13th.This system has been thinned out by promotions and trades, but I suspect they will recharge quickly.
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Oooh.
Gamel is a 3B.
This is interesting.
'Who's that guy we had to release last year because he robbed a bank?'- Billy Beane
Sean Gallagher is my hero.
Gamel is a 3B in much the same way that Jack Cust is an outfielder
viz, badly.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
That's what I hear
Haven’t heard anybody that thinks Gamel can stick at third.
Street is gone for sure
I think there’s almost no way Street is on this team in three weeks.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me." -Wedding Crashers
by notsellingjeans on Jul 18, 2008 10:12 PM PDT reply actions
How is Escobar overated ???
This guy is legit as far as i’ve read. I think Beane would be extremely happy to deal Street and receive a future star SS like Escobar in return. Escobar would be a great return. Though, getting Escobar AND Green would make me jump for joy !
I really don’t see the Brewers giving up their top hitting prospect in Gamel. He is supposed to have a higher ceiling the Laporta and the guy is going to replace Fielder when he leaves.
That list is from December 2007
And if you look at his stats, they are pretty bad before this season.
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braun is in LF
i belive hall was playing some 3b with branyan
by Asfan4ever723 on Jul 18, 2008 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow, Buan is really getting around
Those plane flights from Oakland to Milwaukee must be killer though.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
He can do Extra Innings from Milwaukee
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 19, 2008 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
bobby crosby was a future star shortstop
just sayin…
by connie mack on Jul 19, 2008 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Brewer fan on MLB Traderumors says that Melvin said that Escobar is untouchable
He thinks that the Brewers wouldn’t trade Gamel, but didn’t say tha Melvin deemed him untouchable. I’d imagine that Gamel would be the A’s top target far and away.
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Billy..
Billy has a knack for getting what he wants. I’m positive that 2 1/2 years of a proven, cost controlled closer will bring in some very nice value.
'Who's that guy we had to release last year because he robbed a bank?'- Billy Beane
Sean Gallagher is my hero.
He also has a knack
for having what he wants being something we never heard of or expected. This is the main reason I think that neither Gamel or Escobar will be in the deal.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
beane will bring down his price
he asked for 2b Weeks at winter meetings
i bet he takes 3 mid tier guys and mil doesnt trade gaml/escobar
my guess is Gillespie/brantley or cain/brewer, maybe even a bit less
i know they are older and closer to free agency but street probably gets traded similar to what lidge/valverde
The Astros sent Lidge and utility player Eric Bruntlett to the Phillies for Bourn, righthanded reliever Geoff Geary and third-base prospect Mike Costanzo
The Arizona Diamondbacksacks sent Rolaids Relief Pitcher of the Year Jose Valverde to the Houston Astros for 2B/OF Chris Burke plus pitchers Chad Qualls and Juan Gutierrez.
He just got 2 Bs and a C+ for Blanton
I find it difficult to believe that he would deal Street for a couple of C+ prospects. Street is simply a better value than either of the two guys you cited above.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
exactly
especially since lidge hadn’t been the same since pujols hit that jack in the playoffs and Valverde had only really been around for a year.
Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom
by designatedforassignment on Jul 19, 2008 2:11 AM PDT up reply actions
gamel
Well that breakthrough has occured: Gamel is hitting .370/.434/.630 with 14 homers, 33 walks, and 52 strikeouts in 289 at-bats. Obviously this is outstanding production, and at age 22 he’s not old for the level at all. His lefty/right and home/road splits are all balanced. He has “slumped” a bit in June, down to .323/.405/.468…and when that’s your worst month so far you know you are going good.
Defense remains the main problem. He’s cut his error rate this year…18 errors thus far for a .906 fielding percentage, very poor but not as bad as last year’s horrific .826 mark. He has the range and arm strength but may simply never have the reliability. He runs well enough to play an outfield corner, so that’s an option eventually, although it would be more convenient if the Brewers had a DH option of course.
I don’t know where he is going to fit on the playing field, but I have no doubts about the bat. I’m not sure why Gamel doesnt’ get more attention on a national level…he’s young, his performance has improved from good to excellent, and there are no holes in his numbers. If he were played for a team on a coast you would hear more about him I imagine.
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/6/20/555029/controversial-prospect-mat
Brewer fan checking in...
Hey guys, I’m a big Brewer fan and regular poster over at Brew Crew Ball. As far as Street is concerned, the Brewers desperately need a closer.
Here’s what’s going on in Milwaukee. We overhauled our bullpen in the offseason by signing Eric Gagné to a one year, $10m deal (which has proved to be… unsuccessful thusfar), bringing in Guillermo Mota from the Mets for estranged catcher Johnny Estrada (also, an unsuccessful pick-up), signed ex-Royal David Riske to a three-year deal (has been very dependable, but not extraordinary), and traded for Saloman Torres from the Pirates (who has been arguable the acquisition of the year outside of Sabathia for this team).
We don’t have a solution for the 8th inning right now, and the Cubs have 4.0 games on us after tonight. That being said, the Brewers have stated they are going for it this year by picking up Sabathia and would look into other options. I believe Street, if I’m not mistaken, has about $3.3M due this year and then is signed through ‘09, correct? He could be a closer that would hopefully be as successful as Francisco Cordero was when we traded away Carlos Lee.
Reading what you guys have been talking about, it’s a definite fact that you won’t get both Alcides Escobar and Mat Gamel. Also, I would not expect to see the Brewers parting ways with ex-first rounder Jeremy Jeffries. I would be really, really hard-pressed if you guys even got one of them for Street. The Brewers already dealt top prospect Matt LaPorta to the Indians for Sabathia, and losing two of the top three prospects just won’t be something general manager Doug Melvin will be interested in (a man who has built the majority of the team through the draft).
However, that being said, there is a ton of talent in the Brewers farm system, arguably the most in the majors. Guys like OF Lorenzo Cain (.280 – .290 hitter, some pop in his bat, good prospect), or C Angel Salome from our AA Huntsville team (10 AA All Star’s this year from that team) could be key parts to a possible A’s-Brewers swap, Gillespie is another guy we could throw in. Take any one of the guys from below the top three (Jeffries, Gamel, and Escobar), all of whom have really high ceilings, and this trade could happen.
The Brewers matchup really well with a lot of teams because of their depth of prospects. Just because a guy is #7 or #10 on the Brewers’ prospect charts doesn’t mean they’re a stereotypical #7 or #10. There is incredible talent being developed, and Milwaukee has always been one of the top drafting teams in the past few years (J.J. Hardy, Rickie Weeks, Prince Fielder, Ryan Braun, Yovani Gallardo, Manny Parra, Ben Sheets, Bill Hall, Corey Hart come to mind).
If he's the Prince, then I'm the King.
The longer he is under team control for...
The more the Brewers are probably willing to give up to get him in a Brewers uniform. Melvin is not a real easy GM to swindle, though, so I do not know how easily Billy is going to have his way with him. He’s known to be some what of a tough negotiator. He’s no Mark Shapiro (I love Moneyball, but then again, who doesn’t?).
It would be awesome if he was under control through 2010, but the guys over at BCB did some digging on his contract and it appeared as if he was under team control up until ‘09. If it’s 2010, awesome! Us Brewers fans are just excited about the prospect of playoff baseball being within our grasp. We haven’t sniffed the playoffs since 1982. 2nd longest drought in the majors, but hey, at least there’s another NL Central team with a more… impressive streak of their own (see Cubs, Chicago).
If he's the Prince, then I'm the King.
Cot's Baseball Contracts
Huston Street rhp
1 year/$3.3M (2008)
signed 1/17/08 (avoided arbitration)
1 year/$0.38M (2007), renewed 3/07
1 year/$339,625 (2006), renewed 3/06
1 year/$0.316M (2005), contract purchased 4/05
drafted 2004 (1s-40), $0.8M signing bonus
agent: Hendricks Sports
ML service: 3.000
Subtract 1 year of Service Time or 2008, and thats 4 years of ML Service Time. That leaves 2 years left after 2008; 2009 and 2010.
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Question for ryan braun -
Do the Brewers still feel they need rotation help or do they now feel set with Sabathia added? I was hoping the A’s could package Street and Dana Eveland and get the “future true plus bat” they so desperately need. Would the inclusion of Eveland help pry the prospect Beane really wants, do you think?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Dana Eveland was a Brewer, back in the day
He was, and he wasn’t that good. I was just looking at his stats and could not believe how, well, good he’s been with you guys. I am not surprised, the dude has good stuff, but he certainly wasn’t impressive in Milwaukee and we let him walk away in a trade to Arizona (Doug Davis and Eveland for Johnny Estrada + some change). Naturally, I do not think that the Brewers would welcome back Eveland when we’ve got a platoon going at our #5 starter role right now.
What we’re doing is pitching Dave Bush for home starts and Seth McClung for road starts. We’ve got Sabathia, Sheets, and Parra as locks for the rotation, and Jeff Suppan is as well due to his track record and four-year, $42M contract. Bush has pitched lights out and McClung’s been above average. So, I would say that our rotation is locked up. If we did not have Sabathia, then I would say yes.
I do not have a good idea of your farm system and what you need, but a guy that I keep thinking is not having space in Milwaukee is Tony Gwynn Jr. I think he’d be a great addition to a lot of teams because of his speed and contact. I love the guy! I do not know why we haven’t brought him up to play some sort of 4th outfielder, but we have Mike Cameron, Ryan Braun, and Corey Hart starting and Gabe Kapler as the fourth outfielder.
Whether or not you need depth at the infield, we’ve got a lot of talent in third baseman / second baseman Taylor Green. Lots of rumors he’s the PBTNL in the Sabathia deal, however I think it’s Brantley, so if Green isn’t then he could go to the A’s. He’s got somewhat of a lighter bat but is a whiz defensively, high OPB, something Beane would like. Other than him, we are very weak there because, well, we have the infield of Fielder / Weeks / Hardy and … Bill Hall.
I could see the Brewers drop J.J. Hardy or Rickie Weeks, but if you’re looking for a deal before July 31st, then expect Rickie over J.J., who is much more of a fan favorite. We can live without Rickie.
If he's the Prince, then I'm the King.
Thanks for the insights
Obviously if you didn’t have Sabathia, you wouldn’t be looking for a pitcher like Eveland, you’d be looking for a pitcher like Sabathia (who, judging from his swings last night, would be the A’s best hitter).
Weeks makes some theoretical sense in that we just drafted his brother. However, he just has not proven he is a quality major leaguer – he has all the tools, but it’s hard to say whether his addition into a lineup makes it better or worse. I don’t know why he hasn’t put it together but he hasn’t.
Where the A’s need help is a plus-hitter who can play defense adequately or better at SS or 3B. They have 1,000,000 young pitchers and 1B/OFers and that’s great – key, because some of them are truly outstanding – but are weak on the left side of the infield.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
100% Agree
Rickie Weeks has a lot of people believing that he’s going to be an All Star second baseman, but he has not simply panned out. Maybe he needs a change of scenery or maybe he needs to get out of the leadoff spot which he is in, but Weeks needs to change something. He could hit 20, 25 home runs a year.
If he's the Prince, then I'm the King.
Isn't Green the PTBNL in the Sabathia trade if he can play 3B?
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 19, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Mark Shapiro is good at trades...
He got Asdrubal Cabrera for peanuts and built half his franchise on the Bartolo Colon trade.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Asdrubal "demoted to AAA" Cabrera?
But yeah, the Colon thing was a masterful one. Cleveland has a great franchise they just get critically unlucky (even this year they’re at about .500 pythag. record)
The reason why we believe that the A's would go hard after either Gamel or Escobar
is because the biggest, and by biggest I mean a cavern size hole in the organization is Third Base and Short Stop. At Third Base, we have the injured remnants of Eric Chavez, who if he got healthy might help a good team, but for an injury prone team thats rebuilding, is not really nessisary, and a bunch of organizational fillers. Hannahan is decent defensivly, but hasn’t hit offensivly. Murphy is a utility infielder and can’t hit, and when he can, he’s a platoon guy, and Basiley is doing decent in 3B but is out with a fractured foot.
At Short Stop, the A’s have Bobby Crosby signed through 2009, and whom I think most A’s fans would like to see dealt somewhere (LAD?) and replaced. But we have no one in the Minors really to replace him? Cliff Pennington is doing decently at AAA this year, but thats the ONLY level and ONLY time he’s actually had anywhere respectable numbers. Gregorio Petit is a defensive wiz at SS, but with a weak bat (though maybe better than Pennington). And after that, we have some hopefuls maybe… in.. um… Rookie ball.
2B used to be a position of need, but a draft pick, two trades and a minor league free agent later, its a position where the A’s have a few options.
But everywere else, the A’s have a lot of depth. OF is somewhat full. 1B/DH is full. Even catcher might be full, with Suzuki in his first full year in the Majors, Powell needing to get healthy but still with potential in AAA, Recker doing well in AA, and new acquisition Donaldson doing well in A+ since being acquired by the Cubs.
And the A’s have pitching depth up the wazoo.
That is why I think the A’s would want one of Gamel and Escobar in there. Beane might go with a slew of lower level prospects in a deal, but we already have a ton of depth, and the team really needs is an elite player at a position of need, not another Outfield prospect.
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We could also use 1 of our many pitchers (not top) that are decent prospects to throw into the deal.
A decent pitching prospect maybe all that is needed to finish of a trade with Street and we can get what we need from the Brewers.
Thanks for the visit
Beane is nuts if Escobar isn’t at the top of hiw wish list, although I agree with you that Gamel+Escobar is extremely unlikely.
Beane’s MO has been to target one top prospect (Escobar) and then focus on guys with good (not great) upside but maybe have a ways to go before they’re Show worthy.
What can you tell us about Huntsville’s Michael Brantley? Is he a legit CF?
The monster at the end of this blog.
Beane would be nuts if he didn't consider Escobar
Escobar has rocketed up the prospect boards this year in AA because, quite frankly, he’s one of the best defensive shortstops in the minors and has a line of .339/.369/.445 with 7 HR and 60 RBIs in AA Huntsville. So, not bad stuff.
I would say that if the A’s really, really want Escobar, and from what I’m reading here it sounds like you guys really need a shortstop outside of ‘09 (I would say Escobar, if you want him to pan out, would go to AAA next year and be a September call-up or earlier, otherwise you’re rushing him), the Brewers are going to need something more than Street. Pitching is a plus, and a starter would be nice that wasn’t in the majors but had upside and was moderately close (AAA or AA, preferably).
Escobar and Gwynn Jr. would be a nice package for Street, but the Brewers would most certainly need more compensation than just Street. Michael Brantley is a very legit CF, we’re pretty excited about him, however he is most likely the PBTNL in the Sabathia deal, the Indians have stated they would not have completed the deal without the PBTNL.
If he's the Prince, then I'm the King.
We are flush with legitimate A-AAA pitching prospects
If Beane wants Escobar, and the Brewers want Street plus a decent AA pitching prospect, they should be able to get a deal done – if they can agree on the pitcher. It won’t be Trevor Cahill or Brett Anderson and I don’t know if someone like Vince Mazzaro (who’s having a great year but was wobbly last year) is enough. Not sure who the right piece might be, but it’s probably there.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Why would Brantley be a PTBNL?
He’s got the service time to get traded outright.
In a trade like the Sabs deal, you’d think that the PTBNL would be someone from the 2007 draft who didn’t sign until August. MLB rules state a player must remain with his drafting org. for a full year before he can get traded.
Personally speaking, if you want Street then you give up Escobar and you don’t get anything extra. 2.5 years of Street for a team needing immediate bullpen help vs. your AA shortstop. You want more in return, then you’d need to offer up more on your end.
Sheets and Sabs looking to walk and Fielder giving you a hard time with Arby, this is probably the Brewers best shot for the next couple years. Be a shame to see ‘em fall short ‘cause they wouldn’t shore up their bullpen. ;-) Remember, the Brewers aren’t the only team looking for bullpen help. Tampa’s been looking at Street as well, so the Brewers’ offer would have to beat the Rays.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Brantley could be a PTBNL
if they are putting Green on trial as a 3B and he fails. Brantley could be the fallback
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 19, 2008 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Gamel = Nope
Torres has done a great job as closer and the team is confident in him to continue, but like its said, the setup role is a big weakness right now. At this point in the season it doesn’t appear Mota or Gagne will be effective enough for that, not sure if Riske is either. Considering the Brewers are in a win now mode, they might not want to take time with Riske to find out. I do think Embree might be the one moved, not Street. As an A’s and Brewers fan I’d like to see Street moved to the Crew but they won’t be trading Gamel or Escobar (let alone both). The Brewers still have a pretty solid system and other things to offer. BB is always on the hunt for pitching and I’d think more middle infield help. We’ll see…maybe he can pry Escobar away after all if its for Street.
Gamel is next in line for 3B, or if they move Fielder (doubtful to me) in the offseason, 1B. Gamel is compared to Wade Boggs with power, not that it means anything but he seems like the real deal hitting wise.
Gas to Chicago- $23.87 A's/White Sox Tix- $28 Watching the A's whipping the Sox in July 05'- Priceless
The A's would probably move Embree for a good low-level SS/3B prospect
I don’t know if the Brewers have any of those. The A’s are stocked to the gills with LHP relief options.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
We have Brent Brewer!
He can’t hit. Or field. But he was a second round pick in 06, and has lots of potential!
Another guy would be 3B/SS Zelous Wheeler.
And neck size to baby eating ratio.
Wheeler is listed as a second baseman
and, to be honest, I’m not seeing a whole lot there unless he signed for an over-slot bonus.
I think Beane would prefer a solid pitcher or outfielder to a mediocre shortstop.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Yeah, just throwing names out there
Wheeler can play 3rd and short. Behind Taylor Green, who the Brewers wouldn’t give up for Embree, there isn’t much for SS/3B in the low minors. A young pitcher or two would be more likely for that type of deal.
And neck size to baby eating ratio.
I'd rather have Brent Brewer than a C pitching prospect
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 19, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
On Gamel and Escobar
Beane definitley has his way of gettin top prospects, just look at the trade with the philies. Brew Crew if there going to go to the playoffs and hope to go deep into the playoffs you can ride Torres through out that and that i think is why the brewers are looking at Street. I could definitley see you guys giving up either Gamel or Escobar straight up but for some reason i think its not gonna be just Street involved in this trade. If it goes down it’ll be exciting to see what happens
by greenstampede15 on Jul 19, 2008 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
A FIELDER WHO CAN HIT!
Prince Semien Fielder!
For Street, Murton and one (or two) of the young prospects he got from the Phils.
You put Prince on first, Thomas/Sweeney DH, Cust in left, Ryan in right, platoon center with Brown and Davis, Ellis on second, Crosby at short and keep Hannihan on 3rd (and pray like hell Chavvy heals faster, pussycat, faster and In truly believe (with a lucky break or two here and there; like Tampa Bay and Yanks lose a few, except when they’re playing the Halos) the A’s will make it to the post-season.
Prince Fielder. (Okay, it’s a pipe dream but Billy has pulled more than a few trick rabbits out of his green ‘n gold cap.)
Holy Toledo!!!
Brown can barely play LF, let alone Centerfield
unless you mean Corey Brown, to which I ask why you are promoting him out of Single A when he hasn’t really managed to hit in Stockton yet.
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A dilemma in CF.
What to do with Emil when Frank and Mike return?
No way we’re sitting Jack. He’s due for another HR streak.
I put Emil in center because I think Ryan is our right fielder and if Cust is not DH he’s our LF.
We put Davis in center when we’re defending a lead, and Emil when we need the RBIs.
And no way am I alluding to Corey. Are you kidding?? LOL
Holy Toledo!!!
Corey Brown can probably hit better in the Majors than Emil right now
What do we do with Emil when Thomas and/or Mike Sweeney come back? Well, there’s a reason why we like to call him DFA.
Ryan Sweeney can play CF. So can Carlos Gonzalez. The Brewers are going for it this year, so why would they subtract a major part of their offense for a Closer, a platoon outfielder, and a minor leaguer? They need MLB guys who can help right now. That is why we all suggest going for Gamel or Escobar.
As for what to do when Thomas gets back, why not just go with;
C1 Suzuki
1B Barton
2B Ellis
3B Chavez
SS Crosby
LF Cust
RF Gonzalez
CF Sweeney
DH Thomas
The only thing is, I think we’d be better off dealing Crosby and Ellis eventually, though I’d trade Justin Duchscherer, Huston Street, Alan Embree and Keith Foulke first, so to use their defense to prop up our pitchers values. And this is assuming that Chavez can actually come back and play, otherwise, you’d have to insert Hannahan at 3B there unfortunetly.
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You do realize that CF is Carlos Gonzalez and RF is Sweeney.
With Cust in LF
Thomas at DH
you have a pretty good lineup. Not sure how Murton fits in right now.. maybe more next year or maybe he gets traded.
The only reason to put Gonzalez in RF is if Davis is in CF.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Thanks for pointing that out. CarGo appears to be a very nice player
and our best hope in CF since younger Kotsay came to Oakland. CarGo and Sweeney are my two favorites on this team and they look like the real deal.
Was Black Snake Moan a comedy or a drama?
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jul 19, 2008 7:18 AM PDT up reply actions
The Brewers are open to trading Fielder
There’s been rumblings that I think are pretty legit that say that the Brewers are semi-interested in dumping Fielder in the offseason because he’s a Boras client who refuses to sell away his arbitration years, which is what the Brewers want to do with their young players and lock them up long-term. If Fielder would be involved, it will have to be in the winter and not during the year.
If he's the Prince, then I'm the King.
As good as Fielder is, he has a pretty large platoon split
this year and for his career (as well as a bizarrely dramatic home/road split this year but that doesn’t look typical). Still, he’d help any team offensively.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Don't trust Fielder's numbers this year
He’s been really streaky this year, and if you watch him throughout the course of the year you will realize he is not a platoon player.
http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200807193152509
Here he is hitting a home run last night off of a lefty handed specialist (Jack Tauschner, I believe, who is second or third on his team in holds). Fielder’s a great hitter who needs to lose weight. He’s Chunky McButterpants right now. You just can’t platoon this guy, and you can’t DH him because you can expect him to explode weight-wise.
If he's the Prince, then I'm the King.
I saw the HR yesterday and I agree,
he’s not a platoon player. His .298 OBP vs. LHP this year just makes me think one could spend an awful lot in talent and/or money to get a guy who will not mash everyone – but in fact he probably will. He would instantly become the A’s best hitter by far.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Simple answer:
No.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I don't think Beane makes deals based on
the current need of the organization. What’s he care how they’re doing currently? He has made it very clear to anyone who is listening that he is adding pieces for the future. At this point I think he makes trades based on talent alone, and the only distinction he makes between players is whether they are pitchers or position players. He’ll keep adding raw talent to the system and make the necessary adjustments for specific needs when the time comes.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
That's all well and good
But at some point could he come up with a SS to replace Bobby Crosby?
The monster at the end of this blog.
Who available in the minors is clearly better than Petit?
What would you trade for that person?
Do you believe Petit is at least 10 runs better than the average SS defensively?
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 19, 2008 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I haven't seen anything that suggests 10 runs better
Only metrics I’m familiar with are for big leaguers.
The monster at the end of this blog.
A key variable to whether any prospect is or isn't a lot better than Petit
seems to be whether Petit is just a good fielder or among the best in baseball. If the latter he’s never going to be anything more than a fringe guy.
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 19, 2008 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I assume you actually mean "the former"
but… that doesn’t really compute. Even if he’s just an average defensive shortstop, if he’s also an average hitting shortstop (not more than a .700 OPS or so, park neutral) he’s a league average player.
I see no reason whatsoever to believe he isn’t capable of reaching that (low) level of offensive performance—and if he’s actually above average defensively, suddenly he’s actively good rather than just average.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I see a
lot of reasons to think that him putting up a .700 park neutral OPS is far fetched. Namely: he doesn’t walk, he has very little power, he strikes out a lot for a guy with that type of skill set, and even his average has not been particularly exciting. I don’t think he’ll ever put up a .700 OPS in the majors for a full season.
The A's colors are green and gold.
He walks at a fairly close to average rate ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Mlb BB% is abot 8%
Petit is at 6.9% the past three years almost all in the minors. One would expect that to drop another point or so in the majors, especially since he’ll not be a feared hitter at all, which would, I believe, land him in the bottom quartile.
The A's colors are green and gold.
He might be able to be a league average SS
offensively during his prime years. His numbers in the minors are pretty mediocre. His 680 OPS in the PCL in 2007 was well below the league average of 794. His 719 OPS this year is also comfortably below the league average of 794. He was slightly above average in AA in 2007, 769 OPS to a league average of 748.
For the most part, he’s in below league average throughout his minor league career. Granted, he’s been somewhat young for his levels.
BPro gave him an age translated EQA of 245 for his 719 OPS in the PCL this year. League average for SS this year in MLB is 250. League average is usually 250-255.
And as mikeA said, his offensive skillset isn’t impressive. Unimpressive contact skills, unimpressive skills at drawing walks, unimpressive power. unimpressive baserunning skills.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Didn't PECOTA give him a peak .257 EqA in the 90th percentile or
something like that?
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 20, 2008 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions
When?
Considering that by far his best hitting seasons have come in the last two years, it would be pretty worthless if it was from 2007 (and questionable even if it was from this year).
His hitting last season was legit—he had a very good LD% and didn’t have an overinflated BABIP. It seems like PECOTA (and, by extension, you) is condemning him based on some mediocre years in the low minors when he was overmatched and young for the level of play.
As for his D… while I concede the possibility exists that he’s overrated, what I’ve seen fully lines up with the praise that he’s gotten from BA and others.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I'm not sure which date the PECOTA was, and its heresay
since I’m not a BB-Pro subscriber any more. I’m just thinking that his being an average major league hitting shortstop (~.255 EqA) is far from a certainty, and that he’d likely have to be an outstanding defender to be a viable starter. He may well be that good defensively.
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 20, 2008 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions
It's not PECOTA I'm referencing.
What I’m referencing is just the simple translation of Petit’s minor league numbers that BPro do. They do this for all the minor leagues. You can find the link on their EQA page. IIRC, it’s free, you don’t need to be subscriber.
He’s translated EQA, ie “regular translation” for this year is 229. With an ageing curve applied, ie “peak translation” to 245.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
uggh. Grammar all awry.
It’s not PECOTA I’m referencing.
What I’m referencing is just the simple translation of Petit’s minor league numbers BPro does. It’s basically an MLE, with park adjustments. They do this for all the minor leagues. You can find the link on their EQA page. IIRC, it’s free, you don’t need to be subscriber.
His translated EQA, ie "regular translation" for this year is 229. With an ageing curve applied, ie "peak translation", it is 245.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
dickhead ;)
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Dan Fox' SFR , a pseudo PBP metric
is available for the minors from 2005-2007. He had Petit at 3 runs above average in 2007 in the PCL.
The guys he had as the best SS in the minors in 2007, subscription to BPro required:
Hainley Statia CLF RCQ 21
Ramon Santiago INT TOL 21
Clint Barmes PCL CSP 19
Jonathan Herrera TXS TUL 16
Juan Sanchez DSL DTW 15
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
So he isn't really a starting option
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 20, 2008 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions
when does "the time come"?
These two statements are in conflict, if not inherently contradictory:
I don’t think Beane makes deals based on the current need of the organization.
He’ll keep adding raw talent to the system and make the necessary adjustments for specific needs when the time comes.
I told them 'My game is like a blog.' Because I don't know what a blog is, but it don't sound good. @('.')@
Here's what I wonder...
The guy who might be worth a lot in a deal, and whom the A’s are still strong and deep without, is Henry Rodriguez. Here’s a guy who has the potential to be a healthy Rich Harden and the potential to be Todd Van Poppel.
From the Brewers’ point of view, would it not be an incredibly useful haul to acquire Street as their closer for at least the next 2.5 years, and a high-risk/high-reward stud talent in H-Rod? Might it be enough to start a conversation about Escobar and Green?
Because from the A’s point of view, you are left with Gallagher, Smith, Eveland, Gio, Simmons, Cahill, Anderson, Mazzaro, Leon, Inoa…You still have Devine, Casilla, and Ziggy already in-house…And you solve some of your biggest needs for 2009 on.
Disclaimer: I have never claimed to be able to figure out equitable trades, especially involving minor leaguers – and I haven’t even looked up the latest on Escobar and Green as of this post. Just throwing it out there for fun.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Absolutely, 100%, no chance you get Escobar
I know you guys are all keen on picking up Escobar, but I’m telling you guys, Melvin has it on word from Owner Mark Attanasio not to trade Escobar. It’s just not happening. Maybe Gamel, but for sure not Escobar. Escobar will be a Brewer. I’ll say Green is for sure going to go this year, either in the PTBNL, or for Street. I’ll say the Brewers’ best offer is something with Green, Brantley, and Gwynn Jr. Who knows, I’m not much of a whiz but it appears on paper that there is a lot in common for these two teams to trade.
Like someone before said, should be exciting.
If he's the Prince, then I'm the King.
Look at it this way
Melvin preferred to trade LaPorta than trade Gamel or Escobar for Sabathia. And LaPorta’s pretty much a stud prospect.
And neck size to baby eating ratio.
Not really
But he might not stay at third, either.
Even if he can’t though, Corey Hart can play center field, and Gamel could probably play right. That’s way LaPorta was only kinda blocked- he can play RF, and Hart could’ve moved to center, with Gamel at third if he can stay there. But it’s all irrelevant now- Gamel has openings at third and the final outfield spot next year when Cameron’s gone.
Does that make sense?
And neck size to baby eating ratio.
Moving a crapload of guys out of their position doesn't make sense, no.
Which is why LaPorta was dealt and not Gamel.
If the decision to go for it all now was made, obviously giving up Gamel or Escobar becomes more likely.
I thought Cameron had a team option
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
LaPorta wouldn't have been blocked by Braun if Braun had stayed at third
Gamel is a similarly poor third baseman to Braun.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Another Brewer fan's perspective
Green, Brantley, and Gwynn Jr.
I’d also throw Salome or Lucroy into the mix if the A’s want a catcher.
I’m sure Brantley and his ridiculous walk rate would intrigue Beane. For A’s fans who don’t know about Brantley- he has 40 walks in 300 ABs this year and his OBP is .407, and he can play center.
And Gamel + Escobar are pretty much off limits. But a package of Brantley or Green- whoever isn’t the PTBNL in the CC deal- plus and Salome or LuCroy could probably get the job done. If the A’s want a pitcher, Braddock or one of the low A guys would work.
And neck size to baby eating ratio.
OK, I have to ask
What is the deal with Gwynn? Why do you think the A’s would want him?
He’s completely worthless to Oakland. The A’s have plenty of 5th outfielders. Like, I know he has a nice name. Doesn’t mean anything. Not to go all Doug Gottlieb on you, but he can’t play.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Gwynn would be a throw-in
We know he’s worthless :)
However, a package of Brantley, Lucroy or Salome, and an extra piece like Braddock would be a pretty solid offer, wouldn’t you think?
And neck size to baby eating ratio.
Here are the numbers for some of these guys
Salome: .344/.399/.527
at AA, he’s not a great defensive catcher and is 5’7” so DH or catcher are probably his only options
Lucroy: .309/.391/.513
at low and high A, he’s a better defender than Salome
Brantley: .325/.407/.412
at AA, a decent centerfielder and lefty bat
Braddock: his ERA is in the 5s, but he has 63 strikeouts in 53 innings and is a lefty at High A
And neck size to baby eating ratio.
I guess, I mean, it doesn't really help the A's any
They have a good young catcher, they have a bunch of outfielders, and they have a ton of left-handed pitchers.
All it would be is more guys to play the same positions that they’re already expecting will be filled.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I wouldn't worry about positions with prospects
I’d just take the best ones. I haven’t seen any available SS prospects that are head and shoulders better than Petit—if Petit is really a defensive wiz. I also wouldn’t assume Jeffress is off the table
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 19, 2008 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Fine, so lets take the best prospects!
That just happens to be Escobar.
Who’s a SS.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Ya but he may not be available, given Hardy's impending raise
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 19, 2008 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions
If Escobar isn't available
Then neither is Street.
All of which seems pointless now.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Then you shouldn't get Street.
I’d say no chance in Hell of landing Street w/o Escobar but my direct line to Beane’s office hasn’t been unpacked yet. Oh, the trials of moving!
The monster at the end of this blog.
Grover I thought your Cell was setup for direct to Beane already
I like your comment above about Petit, since Crosby could be here through 2009 that would give both Petit and Escobar time to fit in and battle it out.
I think if the Brewers want Street they will pay for him.. we may have to throw in someone else like Embree as they want someone to come in and help this year. I would agree, Escobar or Gamel would be on Beane’s radar… now the question is,.. Do you still have a connection to his Radar ?
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
I really really really hope Crosby is not starting for the Athletics through 2009
Really
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 19, 2008 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Honestly
Don’t see the Brewers making another big deal for prospects. I think they’d like to hang on to Gamel and Escobar both. I think the Rays are much more likely to deal for Street.
Another lefty hitter?
I think we need to start looking for righty prospects.
by What Would Rickey Do on Jul 19, 2008 12:27 PM PDT reply actions
Shocked if a deal without Jeffress, Gamel, or Escobar
I know AN will be hollering for Street to be dumped for anything once the game is over and people come back into this thread, but even with Street really struggling right now, if there’s going to be a deal, I don’t think Beane will settle for less than one of the Brewers premium talents.
There’s simply not great incentive to deal Street right now without the proper deal. It’s not like Blanton and Harden where Beane felt he had to move quickly (since Blanton would have so many road starts the rest of the season, and Harden’s arm could fall off.) Huston Street will maintain his value going into the offseason, and the team that gets him will still get him for a full two years (assuming his recent struggles are a hiccup and he gets back on track soon, which I think he will.) Plus, with Devine injured and Casilla struggling, there isn’t a great internal candidate to replace him right now. That’s big shoes for Ziegler to fill so early in his career, and Embree isn’t very good. A Brown could do it I suppose, but numbers aside, he’s as scary to watch as Embree.
Quick word on Escobar…If he were to be traded to the A’s (and I understand the Brewers’ fans sentiments, but just this week Phillies fans came here and said Cardenas was off limits as well) he better be Ozzie Smith in the field like the reports, because in the Coliseum, he’s going to be Yuniesky Betancourt at the dish.
Quick word two…if there is a trade, my official prediction is Jeffress plus Brantley or Green plus a C+ offensive prospect.
Before we try to trade Street for Gamel
We need to call the Dodgers and inquire again about LaRoche. He has falle out of favor there, and they need a SS right now and a closer right now.
So Street and Crosby for LaRoche and another prospect could help both teams now and possibly both teams later.
I’m not putting this in a new thread, I just think that LaRoche and Gamel are the two most available 3b prospects around.
Yeah
Now that LaPorta is gone, personally would like to see the A’s trade for LaRoche more than just about any prospect in the minors. There was an article today that said Frank McCourt has only authorized the Dodgers to make payroll neutral trades (Dodgers were second most profitable MLB team last year btw), so the A’s would have to take a MLB player back (is Nomar still hurt, the A’s could take half his salary.)
Yes Trade Street, Crosby
Today’s game sealed it. Street does not have nasty enough stuff to be a closer.. better suited for
relief, but with the A’s he’s already been the closer and relief would be a demotion that wouldn’t
sit well with him. Crosby had a chance to break the game open with the bases loaded and the
A’s just tying the game at 2-2. I had absolutely no confidence that he was going to do anything
in that situation given his about .150 average with the bases loaded in his career. Plus the
fact that now that he has been injured, it’s going to take him about 2 weeks to get his stroke back.
Let’s also trade Mr. Strikeout Jack Cust while we are at it.
Yeah, that .500 OBP in today's game was really killing the team
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Good Point PT BUT
I would rather have someone in the line that can also get just a hit when it is needed. Cust had opportunities today and walked where a hit would have put us ahead.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
This sounds like what the Yankee fans were saying about A-Rod last year
and some Giant fans about Bonds. You’d actually prefer Emil “RBI Machine” Brown over Cust?
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 19, 2008 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually Emil has been producing
But I believe that a DH should be able to drive in runs. I would prefer to have the DH be someone who is a high RBI guy and maybe a good Infielder or outfielder. Cust is neither. He gets RBIs with his HRs but days like today he strikes out on a close pitch and doesn’t even offer.
For the record, I will be glad when we have a full outfield of good outfielders, hopefully next year and no Emil.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Actually I didn't say he produced today
If it were me I would have not put Emil in at that point. But Cust didn’t get that hit when it was needed either, and usually doesn’t. I am not a big fan of either.
Today I am more upset that Street blew his second straight save and we ended up losing again. And, because of this, we probably also lost the opportunity to trade him to the Brewers.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Emil Brown has been producing?
Really??
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Oh yes, I would never compare either Emil or Cust to ARod. They are not even in the same ballpark
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
More Crosby
I went back and looked up his career stats with the bases loaded. I shortchanged him a bit. He’s
actually hitting .208 (15 for 72) with 3 doubles, No Triples, No Grand Slams, 4 walks and 17
strikeouts. Still very unimpressive.
After today BS
I think the only suitor we will have for Street is the Manteca Knights 13-15yr old little league team. Is it just me or does everyone else grimace and shout at the radio, computer or TV every time Street is brought into a game? WTF! What goes through Geren’s mind…”Hmmm, I will put in Street because he is very effective in these situations.” Ever consider, I don’t know, like someone who actually records OUTS? Like Ziggy or Brown, hell, anyone other than Street?
?!
"the A's need more quality preembreetive pitching" ~monkeyball
You call yourself optimist?
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 19, 2008 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes I do
An optimist sees the glass half full. Right now it is full of %#$ where Street is concerned. He can consistently be relied upon for give up just enough to not be an effective closer and Geren is an idiot for running him out there time after time when we have others who are more effective right now. I am seriously hating Street and have been for a while now, but still think we can do something this year. Although that optimism is daily doused by my alter ego, RealistPrime
"the A's need more quality preembreetive pitching" ~monkeyball
by OptimistPrime on Jul 19, 2008 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Hate Street if you must, but don't blame Geren
for putting his closer out there to protect a one run 9th inning lead. Andrew Brown? Please.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Ok Nico...for you
But please, admit to me that if YOU were the manager you would not have put him out there?
"the A's need more quality preembreetive pitching" ~monkeyball
by OptimistPrime on Jul 19, 2008 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions
I would have put Street out there, without hesitation,
the first save opportunity we had after Sunday. Sorry – Street, not Geren, was the problem here.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Funny...
that in any other position, Geren is quick to make moves, such as the disputed move of pulling Bankston for Brown yesterday. Is the title of “closer” so vaunted that Street is above being yanked and replaced with a more productive pitcher?
"the A's need more quality preembreetive pitching" ~monkeyball
by OptimistPrime on Jul 20, 2008 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes
Also, Street has been a good-to-great closer his entire MLB career. He’ll work through this (probably in green/gold since Milwaukee doesn’t want him) and we’ll all get back to being, well, optimistic about him.
I never said he was done
I did say he is sucking though. But the fact remains that our dominant closer Street is not the same guy we have been running out there for the last few weeks. Something is amiss.
"the A's need more quality preembreetive pitching" ~monkeyball
by OptimistPrime on Jul 20, 2008 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
You are far too optimistic
about people’s optimism.
This site loathed him last year when he was striking out 11 guys per 9 innings and walking no one. Probably 50% of the A’s fanbase will despise him no matter how effective he is, because their hatred of him is based on something other than performance.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I think fans are more tolerant of, and rational about,
Street than they are in regards to Geren.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm not going to disagree with you there...
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Don't all fans hate their home team manager after a loss?
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 20, 2008 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions
And after a win.
But that’s what you get, as a manager, when you leave starters in too long, yank them too soon, are too aggressive and too conservative, play “small ball” way too much but not quite enough, and don’t use the bullpen exactly as random fans on the internet are certain that you should.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jul 20, 2008 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Probably right
But I’m in the “Oh god, Street” camp right now (I think he needs a nice 15-day r+r) and I haven’t been before.
It’s an odd sensation, and I’d like it to go away (enter Nico + goat joke)
Street
So is he hurt, or what? Is he being sent out there with a groin injury just to keep him from going on the DL right before the trade deadline?
There wasn't any velocity reading on the game dashboard
but unless it was way down, he looked fine in this game. I hate to use the phrase “tip your cap,” but both of the pitches that were hit to generate the Yanks’ run were low and away, possibly even out of the strike zone. There’s not a lot you can do about that.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Street looked like he was grimacing
after he ran to first base to cover on Posada’s out. His velocity on fastballs looked down after that.
1. Wait … how can you say “he looked fine” if you didn’t actually watch the game?
2. He’s hurt.
Or he was, and might be getting better.
Street hasn’t touched 92 mph since the middle of May. His groin issue became public in early June – who knows how long he struggled with it prior to that. Whatever the precise moment of Initial Groin Rupture, it seems reasonable to ascribe his velocity loss (and subsequent struggles) to that injury.
He’s gained a few mph’s recently though, so perhaps (despite the less than stellar results) he’s beginning to get a bit healthier.
Either way, all this nonsense about how Street sucks, he’s a failure, f—k him, etc. drives me flipping crazy. He’s been excellent since the day he arrived in the majors, basically (at the ripe age of 21). When healthy, he’s been a top tier reliever, and integral to the team’s success. And he seems like a good guy to boot. The vitriol directed at him reflects a profound absence of perspective, and I wish people would get a grip already.
[concluding paragraph indignation not directed at you, obviously]
Huh?
I did watch the game. I came in in about the fourth inning.
In any case, I think it’s becoming increasingly unlikely that he gets moved this season. That’s kind of unfortunate, because building the bullpen should be the final stage of a rebuilding project, but it’s not the end of the world. He’ll still be plenty valuable next year.
And it’s a lot less unfortunate than flipping him for jank to appease some yipping fans would be. I don’t want to have to write a “Street died for your sins” fanpost, but so help me, if I have to I will.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Sorry
Thought process as I read your post:
1. “game dashboard” = following on gameday.
2. The game I watched had radar readings.
3. PT is starting to confuse those weird-looking gameday mannequin figures for real people.
4. I’d better rein him in before he lapses into some kind of Tron-like caught-between-realities psychosis.
Of course, I was watching the Yankees feed, not the local broadcast.
Clearly, my synapses are not firing on all cylinders today. Can I blame that on a groin injury?
Sporting Green Monday headline:
grover Calls Street Dickhead
(07-20) 08:48 PDT
On the heels of a three game Big Apple collapse, controversy has reared its ugly head in the Oakland clubhouse, as struggling closer Huston Street endures a fresh onslaught of abuse from the team’s disgruntled fan base. And this time, it’s personal.
Long time Athletics Nation prospect and trade maven grover has apparently referred to the 24-year old reliever as a “dickhead”, sparking a locker room firestorm that threatens to further unsettle the teetering youg squad.
“We don’t need that kind of [expletive] right now. grover can [expletive] my [expletive]. And he should learn to capitalize his [expletive] name while he’s [expletive] at it. Print that. PRINT that.”, said the visibly upset hurler, his knuckles trembling as he drew a comb through his hair and fiercely plucked three nose hairs with glinting silver tweezers.
Slamming his tweezers to the floor in disgust, Street continued:
“Look, I can take the heat. These fans … don’t get me wrong, I appreciate them. They pay their way into the park, they can boo, hiss, call me names, whatever. But I thought certain people knew what the [expletive] they were talking about. Like people who publish front page articles on big important [expletive] blogs. What, you think I don’t monitor that [expletive]? I have like 14 different screen names, dude. I’m everywhere. It would blow your [expletive] mind if I elaborated. So don’t think you can [expletive] with me. The next time you put together some crazy [expletive] nine-way trade where Billy gives up me and Crosby to get [expletive] Hanley [expletive] Ramirez and Pujols or whatever – well, don’t expect me to give it a second [expletive] thought. You’re dead to me.”
Manager Bob Geren rose to the defense of his embattled closer.
“Yeah, look, he’s been hit a little lately. Everyone goes through tough patches. But that doesn’t mean some internet nerd has the right to spout off like that. I mean, Huston is not a dickhead. I can tell you that emphatically.”
During a hastily arranged and abruptly concluded telephone interview, grover refused to back down. He claims that the comment in question was taken out of context, and actually refers to a different dickhead altogether.
“I didn’t call him a dickhead. I called some other guy a dickhead, and even then it was a joke. It was about synapses and mlb.com gameday … never mind, it doesn’t matter. What if had called him a dickhead? So what? What’s he gonna do, blow a save to spite me? Seems like he doesn’t really need much extra motivation to do that.”
And with that, the spat morphed irrevocably into a blood feud. Three separate sources have confirmed that Street has directed his hedge fund to purchase the SB Nation blog empire, for the sole purpose of deleting grover’s username. While this may appear to be a drastic course of action, Andrew Brown lent some insight into the developments:
“It doesn’t surprise me, actually. He’s kind of a dickhead.”
by 74mk on Jul 20, 2008 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Don't you mean "[expletive] hilarious"?
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 20, 2008 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh - turns out it was Embree
“Never mind.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Bravo
Now will the real dickhead please stand up?
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Tremendous!
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 20, 2008 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions
since no one else will do it ...
QOTM
I told them 'My game is like a blog.' Because I don't know what a blog is, but it don't sound good. @('.')@
Is there a "comment of the month" category?
that was [expletive] brilliant, 74mk.
by still bills kingdom on Jul 21, 2008 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Of course, the only problem
Is that grover was calling 74mk a dickhead as an explanation for how a pulled groin would cause synapses not to fire.
Hilarious news release though.
Only... I didn't call anyone a dickhead!
Just that you had to be a dickhead for a groin injury to interupt the synapses.
C’mon, I’m not the type to judge people.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Impressive
I hope my inspirational comment made up for not getting into a deathmatch vs. PT last week.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Wilson Betemit
Fcuk. Wilson goddamn Betemit
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
Update.
From MLBtraderumors.com
In the main topic
'Who's that guy we had to release last year because he robbed a bank?'- Billy Beane
Sean Gallagher is my hero.
To add
I really don’t think thats what we’re getting.
One Single A outfielder, who isn’t blowing people away.
Bleh.
'Who's that guy we had to release last year because he robbed a bank?'- Billy Beane
Sean Gallagher is my hero.
Again
Was not part of a Street package. It does not look like Street will go to Milwaukee, seeing as the Giants just sent two guys over to Milwaukee.
'Who's that guy we had to release last year because he robbed a bank?'- Billy Beane
Sean Gallagher is my hero.
Wow
That’s a frigging steal for the Giants. Man. Unless the PTBNL is Bumgarner or something, the Brewers just got robbed. Giants get a good catching prospect, freeing them to trade Molina, a third baseman who’s an immediate upgrade, and a Rajai Davis clone, and give up a middle reliever and a past-it 2nd baseman with an expiring contract?
Wow.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Well
They already have Buster Posey in the system, which confuses me. Otherwise decent trade.
'Who's that guy we had to release last year because he robbed a bank?'- Billy Beane
Sean Gallagher is my hero.
OK, so
now they have 2 decent catchers instead of 1.
Hedging your bets isn’t a bad idea when it comes to prospects.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
True.
Though coming out of the draft, people were very high on Posey. Sabean was complimenting him so much, Molina was getting offended.
Still, Salome is a good prospect. Interested to see what happens with their catcher situation.
'Who's that guy we had to release last year because he robbed a bank?'- Billy Beane
Sean Gallagher is my hero.
Though if Posey gets injured
Like with Powell, this will look like a really good move.
'Who's that guy we had to release last year because he robbed a bank?'- Billy Beane
Sean Gallagher is my hero.
Actually they haven't signed Posey yet, have they?
Goldstein doesn’t seem to think it’s a slam dunk that they will, either.
He'll be signed
MLB is repressing over-slot bonuses as usual, but he’ll be signed. There’s way too much for him to lose by going back to school.
Incidentally, I figured out why the A’s were able to sign Dixon over-slot so early. It’s because of this weird “multi-sport exemption” thing.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
here's a link fyi
http://blogs.jsonline.com/brewers/archive/2008/07/19/it-could-be-a-minor-deal.aspx
We've never been in that position. We wouldn't know how to operate, I mean, do we get him a corsage?-Billy Beane on signing a high profile FA
With Durham to the brewcrew
Does this mean Weeks is on his way out and Ellis is going as well?
Or maybe we flip Weeks to someone else?
Confusing.
'Who's that guy we had to release last year because he robbed a bank?'- Billy Beane
Sean Gallagher is my hero.
Street
will probably be gone shortly. I bet the A’s are trying to clear payroll in order to sign Brett Hunter who looks very healthy(17 Ks in 13 innings for team USA) according to Goldstein at BP. Hunter’s demand is supposedly $2 million so any deal has to be viewed with this in mind.
The link stated that the Brewers scouting reports on Street were not good. It may be in the A’s best interest to rest him for a week or two and pray that he regains some velocity.
If he doesn't...
The Brewers will gladly take him off your hands. Or you can hold onto him.
If he's the Prince, then I'm the King.
They can afford Hunter now.
The question is whether he’s worth his asking price
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 19, 2008 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Even if it's $2MM?
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 19, 2008 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions
For the nth time
the team does not need to “clear payroll.”
It’s a pretty ridiculous concept to begin with, and even if it wasn’t the payroll is so far down this year that they could sign every amateur prospect they could for way over slot and still be nowhere close to last year’s figures.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Yeah clearing payroll
Would be something the A’s needed to do or would be trying to do if they didn’t have a bunch of $0.10 a dozen (Davis, Brown, etc.), high mileage (Thomas and Sweeney) and one more payment and its mine (take your pick of expiring contracts) guys on the roster but as it is the A’s are in pretty great shape money wise this year and set up good for the next several years.
Disagree
I would bet that part of Beane’s calculus is whether the A’s budget is better allocated to an arb eligible Street or Hunter and a grade B prospect (assuming that Street would be sold cheaply at this given time).
Beane himself stated that dollars that previously went to the big league cub were reallocated to Michel Inoa. Cost analysis will always be a part of any A’s transaction.
You're seriously misreading what he said
if you think that he meant a literal player-for-player exchange of money with that Inoa comment.
Mostly because that would be a patently moronic thing to do, and I don’t think Beane is a moron.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
This is the A's...
Do you really believe that part of the A’s cost benefit analysis on each deal doesn’t include the opportunity cost of keeping an arb eligible Street vs. obtaining a B prospect and having the freed up resources to snag a talent like Hunter?
It is ignorant to assume that because the A’s shed a ton of payroll in 08 that they do not have budgets going out through 2010.
You may be right with the Yankees and Red Sox, but I guarantee that Beane calculates the $ cost of every move.
Are you actually reading what I've written here?
The A’s have far more money than they could ever possibly hope to spend on amateur talent already “freed up” at this point. The only thing they would be doing with further “savings” is pocketing it, and, sorry, I’ve never seen anything to suggest that Beane is that kind of GM or that Wolff (et al) is that kind of owner.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Yes
I think your point is foolish. How do you know what the A’s overall financial situation is? For all we know Wolf & Beane are loaded with soft costs for a stadium that may or may not get off the ground. This isn’t a complex fact pattern:
1. A’s draft Hunter gaining some optionality and time to evaluate his health
2. In the ensuing weeks he demonstrates that he is healthy while at the same time Street knocks them out of the race (2/3 of the remaining games are on the road too)
3. The utility of Street, Embree, Blanton etc goes down for the current season.
4. The A’s then deem that part of any equation for a deal is the ability to reallocate current dollars towards Hunter ($2 million is not immaterial….it would probably be 20% of their draft/international budget).
PT is right
The team has ALREADY dumped a ton of salary. Way more than $2M. I don’t think the deals are accurately categorized as salary dumps, but we saved over $7M on the Harden deal alone.
Money is generic, and there is absolutely no way Beane is thinking “I need to save myself $2M on Street so I can sign Hunter.” He’s already saved himself a ton, and I’m sure he’s well below whatever the acceptable payroll for this year is.
As far as “How do you know what the A’s overall financial situation is?,” the A’s were ok going into the season with a payroll much higher than it is now. The reductions in payroll represent the minimum (but by no means maximum) amount of “extra” money the A’s could spend.
Yes
but my point is that a $2 million investment in Hunter is material to the A’s baseball op budget. The situation was very fluid when they drafted him and in the last two weeks they have gained a lot of clarity on which route to take. If jettisoning Embree or Street helps get the deal done then I think any deal has to be viewed w/ Hunter in mind.
This A’s firesale also will result in reduced attendance and no chance at the postseason (where teams make a ton of dough).
Anyone who is familiar with real estate also has to consider that this Fremont deal is burning a hole in Wolf’s pockets. Big real estate players are walking away from deals where they already have monster soft costs already expended. This is just speculation here.
Ever heard of leveraging assets?
If you think something is a good investment, you take it. Period. Even if it means going slightly further into debt (and the debt load, even presuming you’re right and the team is somehow totally out of money, is miniscule).
Apart from which, you continue to simply ignore the facts—which are that the A’s spent $74 million on major league payroll last season and will ultimately end up spending only about $47 million on it this year, give or take. Where do you think that money went—into an ironclad lockbox with the words “Do Not Touch” written on it? Intelligently run businesses, and by and large I think the A’s are one of those, do not do things like that, because it makes zero sense.
If you think Brett Hunter is going to on average add more than $2 million in value to your franchise, adjusted for interest etc etc etc, you sign him. If you don’t, you don’t. The decision is really that simple.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
+1
And as far as the real estate argument, the market downturn won’t increase the cash expenses related to environmental review (where the stadium project is). It might reduce the desirability of continuing (although I doubt it) but it won’t reduce cash on hand.
It certainly won’t bankrupt the A’s to the point where they can’t afford $2M on a prospect if they feel he’s worth it.
A project this size
would be a major black hole if it never came to fruition. The A’s are in deep for architectural fees, environmental fees, legal fees etc….Every real estate deal in north america is being carefully evaluated as to whether it is still worth proceeding with. The construction arms of big banks are requiring up to 35% of owners equity in any deal. Deals were previously financed with a fraction of this percentage.
A project this size
would be a major black hole if it never came to fruition. The A’s are in deep for architectural fees, environmental fees, legal fees etc….Every real estate deal in north america is being carefully evaluated as to whether it is still worth proceeding with. The construction arms of big banks are requiring up to 35% of owners equity in any deal. Deals were previously financed with a fraction of this percentage.
You don't
need to give a lesson on leverage and I don’t get your lockbox point.
My guess is that the A’s are not swimming in money. The $74 million payroll was a record for the A’s and it came off a trip to the ALCS. Teams like the A’s & Marlins would not be viable w/o the subsidy in the form of revenue sharing. You grossly overstate the A’s financial health.
Roster management for a team like the A’s is all about asset allocation. I would be able to sell a one time 20% increase to my draft/international budget if I could shed current salary via a Street or Embree.
He doesn't need to "sell" it to anyone
The A’s have the money, it’s within Beane’s purview to spend it. This isn’t some public corporation’s board of directors that has to be convinced of a project’s viability.
Wolff is on record as saying that Beane can spend substantially more money on the team than he has in the past if he thinks it will improve the club.
And I think you grossly underestimate how much money teams get through non-revenue sources. In the case of very low revenue teams like the A’s and Marlins, it’s well over $60 million a year, and the way MLB.com revenue is expanding, it’s probably more like $80 million at this point.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Er
“Non-revenue sources” should be “non-franchise sources.”
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
The A's are definitely swimming in money.
They pocketed more than $15M last year, despite spending nearly $30M more than they are this year. They also have a comparatively low debt load, and are increasing in value at a better than average rate. Also, their ownership team is as rich as any in the league.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Agree
on the non-franchise sources. For MLB.Com to get a $3 billion valuation it has to be generating some great cash flow. The A’s probably due get $60-$80 million from the Central Fund.
$15 million isn’t exactly a bonanza when most of that is probably from the revenue sharing subsidy. $2 million for Hunter with $15 million in pre-tax income is clearly material. This is my major point.
But a decision the A's can/will/should make without external tie-ins.
No one is saying it’s monopoly money, but if the A’s have $15M in the bank and think Hunter is worth the $2M they do it. If they don’t they don’t. They don’t have to “find” the money anywhere, and if they do further reduce payroll it won’t make Hunter one point of projectability better (or change the signing calculus).
That's the big question
Does Wolfe and Beane think that Hunter is worth it?
Actually do we all think Hunter is worth it?
I wish we could redo the 2007 draft with the outlook that the A’s seem to have now. I would love to have seen us take Porcello instead of Simmons last year. That looks like the direction the team is taking across the board now. With International signings, drafting and signing bonus’.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
I guess so
Sometimes you have to pay first-round money to a second-round talent to sign him in the seventh round. Is that as good a deal as just drafting him in the second round? No—but you have a limited number of second round picks. You have to pay a price to cheat the system.
On that note, can I just complain again about how utterly retarded this system is?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I guess
I view it from a NBA or NFL salary cap prism. Beane & Forst get X amount of money for baseball ops. This one will be a tough decision given the dollar amount that Hunter requires( probably a 60/40 call). I just think it would be in Beane’s interest to sell it to Lew from the perspective that he would be a net zero ( if Street were dealt) instead of asking him to write a $2 million check.
MLB has no salary cap
The NBA, and especially the NFL are not good prisms to view MLB through.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
The A's
clearly have an internal cap. You will see an arb eligible guy like Street fly off of this team the minute he regains some trade value.
Yes, clearly the Marlins
have an internal cap too.
Why should fans have any sympathy for an owner who wants to pocket more profits for his luxury super yacht?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
i cant agree with anything youve said.
the A’s have enough cash to view Hunter’s signing and Street’s trade situation as entirely separate questions. to connect them as strongly as you do is absurd.
you trade Street if there is good value being offered. you sign Hunter if you deem it as a good $2m investment. it is as simple as that.
and even if cash were tighter, a well run business STILL looks at it this way (as PT mentions in his comment regarding minimal debt load).
Per Dave Forst
From BP
“We have put a lot of resources into our major league team of late and to the detriment of scouting and player development. In a best-case scenario, we have a new stadium, new revenue, and we’re not forced into robbing Peter to pay Paul. This year we’ve cut some money off the major league payroll, and now we’re putting it back into player development”
I think that all of you are lost if you don’t think that there is any correlation between major league payroll and money pumped into player development. Baseball ops has one pot to dip into. A $2 million bonus for Hunter would be one of the biggest in A’s history. Shedding some payroll fat could facilitate this signing.
you are not listening
we have already shed enough for basically any signings we want to make.
a Street trade is not about dumping more salary.
for the Kotsay trade, you could argue, it was just as important to get rid of his contract as it was to get a guy like Devine. We are nearly $30m past that point.
They still shed $2 million or so
but, it was not primarily a salary dump trade. The A’s had an opportunity to acquire a change-of-scenery guy in Devine, and they made the salaries work to get him.
With that said… every single bonus and draft signing to this point has been paid for by the money the team is not paying Esteban Loaiza—and THAT was the salary dump to end all salary dumps.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
It is an add on
consideration for any Street/Embree deal. Forst makes it abundantly clear that you have to view dollars spent on the major league and minor league in conjunction.
This Hunter signing is not a no brainer either way. There are multiple variables that will go into the decision making regarding this signing. It isn’t as simple as a model spitting out yay or nay. You need to consider alternate uses of capital.
Even Bud Selig,
who’s going around boasting about MLB’s financial health, no longer agrees with you.
Even, owners who were hardline cost control types, like David Glass of the Royals, and Jerry Reinsdorf of the WS, no longer agree with you.
The only owners who still use the arguments you use, are the extreme money grubbing welfare queens like Jeff Loria.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
latest uncorroborated poop from haudricourt
Likely deal is Durham to the Brewers (but there may be a big (three-way?) deal expanding involving the elder Weeks.
Brewers likely out (or lowering their offering bid) on Street:
The Brewers have scouted Oakland’s Huston Street but apparently received bad scouting reports on the struggling closer.
I told them 'My game is like a blog.' Because I don't know what a blog is, but it don't sound good. @('.')@
*IF* Street is traded...
he’ll now fetch less than Harden and Blanton.
To show how strange this blog is, everyone will be pissed when Street is traded for nothing when they bitch about him every time he pitches. They’ll then start pulling stats that suggest he’s much better than his numbers suggest.
Personally, I think that we should wait unti July 31st at 11:30 PM and then trade him for whatever he’s wroth at the time.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
I agree with that plan
because 11:30 PM on the 31st is after the trade deadline.
[Yes, that’s a fancy way of saying “don’t trade him now.”]
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
That's right... the deadline is in the afternoon...
I guess I meant a half hour before the deadline.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
trade him for whatever he's wroth?
That would make PaulThomas IRAte.
I told them 'My game is like a blog.' Because I don't know what a blog is, but it don't sound good. @('.')@
Update from mlbtraderumors.com
Haudricourt says the Brewers scouted Street but the scouts were not impressed. He’s not coming to Milwaukee.
'Who's that guy we had to release last year because he robbed a bank?'- Billy Beane
Sean Gallagher is my hero.
No doubt.
I wouldn’t trade for him if I were a GM.
'Who's that guy we had to release last year because he robbed a bank?'- Billy Beane
Sean Gallagher is my hero.
Yeah, one is blind the other does not have eyes
But they could both smell the stench of Street stinkin’ up the place. RATS! At this rate who is going to take him?
"the A's need more quality preembreetive pitching" ~monkeyball
by OptimistPrime on Jul 19, 2008 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Hunter asking for top 10 pick $$
Kevin Goldstein at BP:
Pepperdine’s Brett Hunter was considered one of the top arms in the draft, but arm injuries dropped him to the seventh round, where Oakland took a gamble on him. As it turns out, he’s healthy, and Oakland is continuing their evaluation of him as he pitches for the Team USA National Collegiate team, where he’s allowed six hits in 13 1/3 innings while striking out 17, but with 10 walks. He reportedly has a price tag of $2 million.
street's value is down
and its been falling even before today’s failure
some injury concerns
cant get lefties out
anyone notice his over reliacce on his lousy changeup, he’s gotten burned on it more often than not
SI.com’s Jon Heyman just posted a new column.
- The Brewers and White Sox inquired on A’s closer Huston Street. However, A’s GM Billy Beane said “there is nothing going on” in regards to Street. The Sox were linked to both Street and Jon Rauch today, so Kenny Williams is clearly monitoring the relief market.
- Heyman says the Rays have not discussed Street with the A’s, and the Dodgers “aren’t believed to be heavily involved.”
So basically....
who do the WhiteSo have left in their system? The bloody renmants of Fields?
facepalm.jpg
LOL... I think this says it all...
Third Edit:Haudricourt says the Brewers scouted Street but the scouts were not impressed. He’s not coming to Milwaukee.
Maybe we should just keep him and hope he’s hurt or something. Maybe he’ll get better next year. Hell, we kept Crosby on the same premise.
Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb
yeah agreed
no incentive to trade him if his value is down
since he’s their only remaining major trade chip
but i dont think they are to excited to pay him close to 5mill next yr
by Asfan4ever723 on Jul 20, 2008 12:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Rich Aurilia's a scout?
Procrastinators unite....tomorrow
by muffinpryde on Jul 20, 2008 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Buy low, sell high
Street is a legit closer who could yield at least as much as Harden.
BB- do it! get a few more chips for an overvalued player!
Yeah, sell high by trading a guy who just blew 2 saves in a row
I have a new theory for why no one understands “buy low, sell high.” They think “high” means “low.”
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
That was low.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Street still
commands more than C prospects. I mean look what the Giants were able to get for Durham. Sure Street has struggled of late, but what closer doesn’t blow saves. He’s young and has pitched in big games. With the Brewers having traded for Durham and Sabathia it’s clear they’re in a win now mentality especially since they’ll lose Sheets and Sabathia at the end of the year. The brewers need a closer as they make their playoff push, Street would make plenty of sense to them. Does he bring Escobar, no, however, i could see Beane working his magic and getting Gamel as the centerpiece.
by In Beane we trust on Jul 20, 2008 4:59 PM PDT reply actions
Not knocking Street, but statistically
“what AL closer blows a higher percentage of saves this year” than Street? Currently, zero. (Street: 17/22, 77%) Of course, just a week ago he was at 85%, which is solid.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't hate Street.
I just think he’s a poor bet to stay healthy long-term, and have been hoping he would be dealt for a thumping bat since last year, when the elbow problems started (not a good sign for a pitcher that lives on the slider). It’s unfortunate he’s sucking now, because it makes my plan impractical.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
New Suitor? Awesome!!!!
Oh – I thought it said “Bruce Sutter”.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Why are we acting like Street is so valuable?
I mean, we’re the ones who are watching him more than anyone else, so we know the truth. Injured last year, injured this year, never particularly dominant either year (well, there was a brief period last year during the first part of August, but that’s it).
He doesn’t dominate. He’s not a shut down closer. His stats aren’t impressive anymore. He’s had too much trouble with lefties the last two seasons. He surrenders too many homers. He doesn’t even have the flash of a high radar reading to wow people.
Why would anyone want him? Are we just going to keep repeating “cost-controlled closer” over and over again? Or use his old stats to describe his current value?
I would love to see him traded for a player of real value to the offense. But unless some GM is just desparate (and/or stupid)—or unless he’s part of a deal with Duchscherer or Ellis, I just don’t see why this would happen.
And I really like Street.
Last point: Before the season someone who is on the inside with the A’s told me that Beane wasn’t high on Street and wanted to trade him. Beane just didn’t feel that Street had the fastball or out-pitch to make him a top-notch closer.
This is silly
Why do people think Street’s old stats do not reflect his current value?
Has he suddenly and radically overhauled his delivery? Added a new pitch? Suffered a major shoulder injury? No. He is the same pitcher he was three years ago. And that same pitcher is the guy that BP rated as having the highest upside of any reliever in the entire American League.
As far as I can tell, the arguments against him are a little bit of bad luck combined with a dumpster truckload of prejudice. I am amazed that Street is willing to even contemplate signing a long-term deal here (whether or not Beane would want to do it). If I were him, I would be crossing my fingers and praying for a trade. The way he’s been treated here, I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that Oakland does not deserve him.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
What about the data above
that clearly expresses how much velocity is gone from his fastball? Or, the significant amount of time he spent on the DL last year with an elbow injury? Neither of those things say he’s the same pitcher he was three years ago.
I’m also curious about this “prejudice” of which you speak. What reason would any A’s fan have to be “prejudiced” against Street? He’s about the cuddliest and most non-controversial athlete alive.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Exactly - it's one of the most ridiculous assertions I've heard in a while
And Oakland doesn’t deserve him? Because fans – not management, mind you, fans – think their closer blows games more than he actually does? That applies to fans of almost every team in every era. Big wow. Meanwhile, Street’s save conversion rate is poor in 2008, wasn’t great in 2007, his velocity is down or inconsistent and last year he had an injury feared to be very serious. He ain’t no sure thing going forward – and teams looking at trading for him know it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Your last sentence is, unfortunately,
the main reason why it may not be worth trading him anymore. The return has to be worth it.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Yup - teams like the Brewers aren't just looking at box scores, either
They have scouts looking at Street, reporting back that they are not overly impressed with what they are seeing right now. Billy Beane and the A’s may be good at it, but they aren’t the only ones who can evaluate talent.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Not to mention he's about to get expensive
When you have a chance to get a guy like Sean Gallagher, you take it!
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 20, 2008 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions
He spent time on the DL with an elbow injury, yes...
and then promptly proceeded to come back and pitch much much better than he’s ever pitched before. Some guys had some pretty insane seasons last year, but you could make a pretty good case that from the day he came off the DL to the end of the year, Street was the best relief pitcher in baseball.
I don’t know what the velocity decline is caused by. Maybe it’s the groin injury. Maybe it’s just trying to control his fastball better. I’m going to guess that it isn’t some irrevocable physical decline (he’s 24) or his arm burning out (he’s thrown less than 300 professional innings).
The prejudice? OK, that one’s easy. He’s a small guy. He doesn’t have a “death stare”. He doesn’t throw 100 miles an hour. He doesn’t look scary. None of those necessarily makes a guy a good pitcher, and other than the velocity (which is good but only if you can control it) I’d argue they barely make a difference at all. But it adds up to a guy who looks like an IT developer instead of a “closer”. People assume he’s not a good pitcher and then look for evidence to support that, instead of coming at it from a neutral viewpoint.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Well, I can only speak for myself.
Justin Duchscherer also lacks all those qualities, and he’s the best pitcher in the American League right now. I would think that most A’s fans have become pretty comfortable with the idea of good things coming in not necessarily attractive packages.
I think that it can just as easily be argued that since (some of) his numbers are very good, that some come to the conclusion he’s an elite closer even though there are other observable phenomena, such as his injury tendencies (elbows tend to get worse, not better, at least until surgically repaired), declining fastball, and rising home run rate that suggest there are some liabilities associated with him as well.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Honestly, PT, I think you're either in denial about Street,
or just too obsessed with certain peripherals to see the overall picture. Street’s K/BB rate is not everything (I’m not sure why you care about Ks so much with Street, then lambaste fans for caring about it with Cust).
The truth about Street is that while he is a good closer:
1. He has CONSISTENTLY failed to save 85% or more of his chances. I don’t think he has had especially easy or tough chances overall, as he probably has a “one inning, three run lead” chance less often than average but also is rarely asked to come in with the tying run already on base and escape an already existing jam.
2. His HR rate is rising, which is especially troubling for a closer. So is an ulnar nerve problem for a guy who snaps off a lot of sliders.
3. You yourself (not you somebody else) felt Blevins should have pitched the 9th against a lefty group of Yankees on Saturday – you would never entertain that idea with a dominant closer, but Street is not dominant against left-handed hitters. In a 3-2 game, if you had K-Rod, or Papelbon, or Rivera, or Nathan, would you opt for Blevins, a rookie who has never had a save situation? Would you even think about it?
Is Street as bad as his frustrated, knee-jerk, emotional critics believe? No. Is he as good as his K/IP rate and K/BB ratio would suggest? No. Are teams that are looking to trade for a closer right now lining up to try to get a deal done after consulting with their on-site scouts? Not so much.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
quick note:
the importance of K’s for a pitcher is significantly different from the important of K’s for a hitter.
From a quantitative perspective, however, there is little evidence to suggest that a strikeout is “worse” than a groundout, popout, or any other means of making an out, with respect to generating runs. Sure, it might look bad—not even being able to put the ball in play—but the fact is that error rates, in this era of improved equipment, are as low as they’ve ever been. Granted, putting the ball in play, whether in the air or on the ground, can sometimes enable a hitter to advance a runner, but it also increases the chance of hitting into a double-play—a far greater rally-killer than a strikeout.etc.As a result of all that, the value of “just putting the ball in play” is as low as it’s ever been
...
But those are hitters. Pitchers, on the other hand, are a completely different story.
Where the value of “just putting the ball in play” has often been overstated for hitters, the opposite has long been the case for pitchers. In their case, a strikeout is most definitely not “just another out.” In fact, the ability to create outs for one’s self is among the most important skills a pitcher can possess.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2617
by oakinboston on Jul 21, 2008 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
aka "The Monkeyball Conundrum"
I told them 'My game is like a blog.' Because I don't know what a blog is, but it don't sound good. @('.')@
It's not actually a conundrum
Hitters control the results of balls in play a lot. Therefore, hitters CAN succeed with high strikeouts by controlling their balls in play very well (for instance, by hitting them over the fence).
Pitchers don’t control the results of balls in play very much at all. Therefore, pitchers with low strikeouts can’t really do much else to make up for it.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Hm
Uh, OK, then, change that to “Hitters control the results of balls they make contact with a lot.”
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Heh... that's not what I meant
I read what you posted and was thinking “Hitters control their BABIP by hitting home runs”
Long weekend
re "pitchers with low strikeouts can't really
do much else to make up for it,” PT, by your logic pitchers with low K totals just can’t control any level of success and can never make up for it. Which isn’t true. Ziggy is a ground ball machine and Duke is an “out on the front foot” fly ball machine. And Henry Rodriguez is still overmatched by AA hitters.
re “pitchers don’t control the results of balls in play very much at all,” that is also not true. You control it by what counts you get into, how predictable your pitching patterns are, and how often you make mistakes in the strike zone. These are the “behind the scenes” factors that may not be directly seen in the BABIP stats, because they are not directly correlated with anything in any way, but they are in fact of indirect – and significant – correlation.
Where you are correct is that there are fewer pitchers out there who can succeed with low K rates than there are guys who can succeed with high K rates. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t “low K” pitchers whose success is real, sustainable, and even predictable – if you look past the peripherals and try to see why what’s happening isn’t luck.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
You're making precisely my point
by citing two guys with unsustainably low ERAs compared to their peripherals. It’s easy to look for guys with low ERAs and then cast around trying to explain it after the fact—but I don’t recall a chorus of voices on the site predicting that Duke would have a sub-3 ERA as a starter or that Ziegler would be close to a record for consecutive scoreless innings.
As for Henry Rodriguez, walk a batter an inning and I’d like to see you succeed with ANY kind of stuff.
I didn’t say pitchers had NO control over BABIP; people have come back from that particular radical ledge. There are things pitchers can do to control it slightly. Some guys can induce popups; that will lower your BABIP a little. Some guys throw knuckleballs, which will lower it quite a bit if you do it right. And there are ways of “beating” BABIP besides strikeouts. Ground balls will lower your slugging percentage. Etc.
Nonetheless, the point is that these are exceptions to the general rule. And they’re not very wide-ranging exceptions. Most of the time, if someone is succeeding without a good K/BB ratio, it’s not going to last.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
My point is that if you look
deeper than the peripheral-surface, you can predict and understand the exceptions to the rule better than if you don’t. I’ve been saying since March, and every month thereafter, that I think the Angels are a 95 win team. I said it before the season, I said it again when they were playing “above their pythag” in May, and I said it again when they were “still playing above their pythag” at the end of June. And it’s not luck – I’ll post more about that tomorrow morning. No, Duchscherer won’t sustain this level of success, but he is better than the metrics – especially the number of fly balls – suggest he “should be”.
You keep coming back to “most of the time” and I keep coming back to “the exceptions” – because good scouting and good player personnel decisions rely on identifying and predicting the exceptions better than other teams do. I win, because I used italics.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Do you think they were a 95 win caliber team in April and May
without Lackey for a month, and with Kendrick and Figgins each missing for a month and Vlad struggling? They were by their W-L record during that time. Do you honestly believe that team was as good as their record? And, in fact, I’m pretty sure you didn’t think that in March when Lackey and Escobar got hurt. If you had said, “Sure, with these injuries, the Angels are putting out a pretty average team on paper, but gosh I think they’ll win a ton of close games and have a great record” then I would be impressed, but you didn’t, because that would have been an odd prediction. If you had said “they’ll score a ton of runs in April while their starting pitching is bad, and then pitch great in May while they struggle to score runs, the confluence of which will lead to a great record, because this is a foreseeable ‘exception’” I would have been frightened when it turned out to be true.
The A's colors are green and gold.
LOL - I don't remember
I’m not sure I made any specific prediction post-Lackey about “number of wins” other than to say that I thought as long as he was out and Harden was healthy, I felt the A’s could hang with the Angels, and that once Lackey got back I thought it was unlikely the A’s could compete.
I do recall, however, in a conversation about “best team in the AL,” saying (and being scoffed at) that the Angels were a reasonable part of that conversation.
I did not, however, have the White Sox and Twins ahead of the Tigers and Indians, and I think I owe Robb a hooker.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The reason some, PT, probably
value Ks for pitchers and not for hitters is that they are used as a “measure” of different things.
For pitcher’s, Ks are used as a proxy for stuff. Typically if a guys has lots of Ks, it is assumed his stuff is at least decent.
And Ks do matter to a certain extent for hitters, if they don’t come with a good walk rate, a lot of power. Of course, hitters who K alot, and don’t walk and don’t have power, never even make it the majors.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
That's fine, and I realize they are different beasts
but neither is of “all” or “no” importance. There are times when contact is important for a hitter and there are times when any kind of out is equal for the pitcher.
And don’t get me wrong, Street’s K numbers are among his important good qualities – but they don’t mean he blows a 9th inning lead less often than average. Just because he misses a lot of bats doesn’t mean he’s missing enough bats.
But I think Street is a good closer; I just don’t think he’s an excellent one. I see him as a “B+ level closer” and I argue equally with those who rate him as a “C+” as I do with those who rate him as an “A”.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well, I don't think that there are many
who are going to say that Ks have no, zero, importance for hitters, and are completely important for pitchers.
Ks do have importance, for projecting hitters, aside from the times when contact would be nice. A guy who Ks a lot, at close to record breaking levels, needs to have huge power to succeed in MLB, or be able to play D. If not, he’s out of MLB soon. A guy who puts up outstanding OPS numbers, but with astronomical K rates, is often likely to regress the next season, BJ Upton, for one. Yeah, there are exceptions, obviously.
And obviously there are pitchers who can succeed even with mediocre K rates.
Also, K rates, while usually a good proxy for stuff, are proxies, nothing more. Look at Wang Chien Ming. If you look at his K rates in 2005-2006, you’d think that he is some soft throwing crafty lefty. OTOH, if you look at his fastball data, or watch him pitch, he’s one of the harder throwing pitchers in MLB.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
For pitcher’s, Ks are used as a proxy for stuff.
That’s not really it. Pitchers who get a lot of Ks give up fewer hits. What difference there is in true babip skill between pitchers is dwarfed by the different numbers of balls in play caused by K-rates. Obviously, there’s more to it, as extreme gb pitchers can avoid xbhs and so forth, but pitchers who get a lot of Ks will yield a lower BAA than pitchers who don’t get a lot of Ks with very very few exceptions.
The A's colors are green and gold.
His HR rate is rising because his HR/FB rate is rising,
something which is known to be wildly variable between seasons and have very little to do with a pitcher’s actual pitching ability.
Saturday’s game? That was a bit of a special case. It’s not often you have a right-handed pitcher lined up against, theoretically, six consecutive lefthanded batters. Even one true righthander in the four would probably have made me go to Street, because they’re pretty close to an automatic out for him.
Other pitchers have different repertoires. Rivera throws the same (one) pitch to everyone. Papelbon’s best offspeed pitch is a splitter. Nathan? Well, OK, he’s better than Street (right now), you’ve got me there. I’d certainly have preferred Blevins to K-Rod.
Save percentage? I just don’t care about that. You might as well say Greg Smith sucks because he has a 5-8 record.
Look, I’m not saying Street is the greatest pitcher in baseball history. But he’s clearly, by just about any stat that makes sense, a top 10 reliever in the AL. And yet the tone of this site is “let’s dump him for a bag of baseballs.”
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
"I'd have certainly preferred Blevins to K-Rod"
The prosecution rests.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yo no comprendo
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
How does
Street’s save percentage compare to other closers? Other closers who are usually viewed as elite: Mo Rivera, Nathan, KRod, Wagner?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
This is a serious question, not snark.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
The timing is bad on this
I agree that historically Street has been underrated. His peripherals were stunning in the 2nd half of 2007.
The problem is that the most recent data points are troublesome. Scouts and performance both point to something being wrong with him (hopefully just the groin). This has to concern the A’s as he is about to be arb eligible and has pumped out many saves during the career….a glory stat overvalued by arb panels and correctly undevalued by A’s management, The utility of a closer on a rebuilding team is also greatly reduced. My guess is that this is the perfect time to trade him, but his performance just won’t allow a fair return.
"...hopefully just the groin....'
I told my ex wife this as well, but it did not convince her
"the A's need more quality preembreetive pitching" ~monkeyball
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