Barton, Granderson and Brown-- Anatomy of a Play

by madmongoose on Jun 4, 2008 6:30 AM PDT Comment 55 comments

It's been 7-8 hours, and i know a bunch of us discussed it in the game thread, but I thought this play deserved a bit more attention. it was one of those classic "you've think you've seen everything, but you haven't situations.

Set the stage-- Bottom of 8th-- tie game after Buck has looped a hit; one out; Brown on third (taking the extra base after Pudge dropped the ball in the collision with Chavy), Buck at first, Barton at the plate.

One inning earlier I had been talking with my buddy about Greg Maddux' theory about pop flies. I believe I read a story once where Maddux-- crazy genius that he is-- said that a 7 second fly ball should always be caught; a 6 second fly ball should be caught by competent outfielders, but occasionally isn;t, and a 5 second fly ball could find a seam. I think Barton's ball was somewhere between 5 and 6 seconds (love for someone to review the tape and time it).

So presuming that Brown-- or any human-- cannot react within the first 5 tenhs of a second after the ball is hit-- he has at most 5 seconds--- and possibly less-- to do whatever he's going to do before the ball drops on ground or in glove. I confess to not watching Brown-- so I don't know what his first move was-- but clearly he must have been moving down the line by the time the ball was dropping toward shallow right center field. And as for the notion that Granderson could decide what to do after spying what Brown was doing and only go for the catch if Brown was, as he was, halfway, i defy anyone to show me that Granderson can run all out essentially aimed at first base looking at a falling ball and still see what Brown is up to more than 90 degrees to his right.

So did Brown blow it? Was the correct play, as my buddy suggested, an immediate move back to the bag followed by a shorter lead once it appeared the ball would drop-- that still might-- and i underscore the word might-- have allowed Brown the chance to retag the bag in case Granderson did what he did and make a circus catch? Could Brown-- within 5 seconds-- had the presence and time to go back, forward, and back again? theoretically, yes. But you''re asking a lot in real time.

The more I think about this, the more I think Brown actually made the right play and was doomed by a spectacular catch. It sure sppeared as the ball began to drop that it had found the opening-- but not so much that it wouldn't bounce immediately up to an onrushing fielder (and remember ordonez who has a great arm was in the vicinity as well) and make it difficult for Brown to score if he was hanging at the base ready to tag. I think he made the right play for a 90-10 situation-- granderson or any CFer makes that catch 10% of the time and brown can;t score. 90% of the time it falls and the A's take the lead. Whereas if he plays back at the bag I'm not sure he scores more than 50-60% of the time if the ball bounces cleanly to a fielder-- and he's probably out the rest of the times-- a worse outcome than the one that actually occurrred since runners would wind up at 1st and 2nd, not 1st and 3rd.

But what do you think? what was the role of the 3B coach? have at it folks-- we may not see another one like that for--- well, maybe a couple of weeks.

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OK, I'll bite

Despite the fairly extensive discussion on this that was in the post-game thread.

I still think he should have tagged up – he didn’t need to go far down the line to be sure of scoring on a single (Buck would have been the one in real trouble), and by the time Granderson got close to the ball it was clear he’d be rocketing at about 100mph toward first base when he fielded the ball, whether he caught it or short-hopped it or dove and knocked it down or whatever. He would not have been able to get off a quick and accurate throw in any of those circumstances, so a tag would have led to a run in almost any case.

I could be wrong, though. And given that we’re still arguing about it the next day, having thought it through and looked at replays, I don’t think we can really hold it against Brown too much if he didn’t achieve the optimal outcome when he had to figure it out in real time. The fact that we have plenty of reasons to complain about Brown gives us a certain predisposition to criticize him whenever something doesn’t work out, but that play was a genuinely tough situation to read.

I was initially annoyed to see DeFrancesco standing well behind third paying no attention at all to Brown while the play transpired. That’s probably unfair to him, on second thought, me wanting to blame someone for the damn play not working out. DeFrancesco knows his job responsibilities better than I do, and I imagine he was thinking the runner was on his own (having the play in plain view) while the third base coach had to prepare to advise Buck coming around second base.

by Faust on Jun 4, 2008 8:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree

It was a difficult play (in Brown’s defense), no doubt. However, I think the first move ought to be “back to the bag” once the runner sees the ball is in the air. (Pop fly kind of “air”, in other words)
If the ball drops, I think Brown still has plenty of time to score … no way Granderson gets up after sliding and missing the ball, picks it up cleanly, and then throws Brown out, unless Brown is walking home.
There is a possibility that Ordonez fields it, but I doubt it, considering Granderson is going to make contact … with the ball, with Ordonez, with something.
Again, if Brown goes half-way, he definitely scores if it drops, doesn’t if it’s caught. If Brown tags up, he probably scores if it’s dropped, probably scores if it’s caught. I like the latter.

I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.

by Vacafan on Jun 4, 2008 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brown

He should have definitely been tagging up from the get-go. If Brown goes back to tag, and that ball drops, Brown scores standing up. Brown was watching that ball fall like he was between 2nd and 3rd Base, which gives the runner a chance to score if Granderson boots the ball.

Emil Brown is a bad baserunner.

by Colorado Fan on Jun 4, 2008 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

3 BAD MISTAKES BY EMIL BROWN IN LESS THAN 24 HOURS!!!!!

1. Monday Night – 8th Inning

Anyone see this piece: http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080603&content_id=2833024&vkey=news_oak&fext=.jsp&c_id=oak

I learned this strategy when I was 14 years old. If the runner at 1st base gets a Great Jump, and you have zero strikes on you… You should Swing and Miss Badly (to distract the catcher), or take the pitch… ESPECIALLY in the 8th inning of a tie ballgame.

2. Emil Brown’s AB vs. Dontrelle Willis

- Cust walks to leadoff the 4th Inning – I think it was a 4-Pitch walk, with Cust having to duck out of the way on a few pitches

- Chavez Walks on maybe 5 pitches

- Emil Brown watches the 1st pitch go to the backstokp, then swings at the very next Pitch, which is low. He continues swinging at balls off the plate ending in a strikeout. Worst AB of the Season.

3. Not tagging up in the 8th inning last night.**

This could have cost the A’s two baseball games. He is very lucky it didn’t.

Bottom Line: Emil Brown is a Veteran baseball player. You can’t teach a old dog new tricks. Beane/Geren need to drop this guy ASAP when the Big Hurt comes back. 3-Strikes, You’re Out!

by Colorado Fan on Jun 4, 2008 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You know,

if it was up to me, I’d really rather Emil Brown not wait the 2 tenths of a second it would take him to pick up whether Rajai Davis is stealing or not before he starts trying to locate the actual pitch. He’s a mediocre enough hitter as it is without spotting the pitcher the equivalent of a free 125 MPH fastball.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jun 4, 2008 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

But he probably missed a sign on that play

Generally in that situation, the batter gets a take sign to allow the runner to steal. So he probably shouldn’t have been swinging in the first place. Of course we’ll never know b/c Geren isn’t going to say one way or another . . .

by oaktownmario on Jun 4, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually, Geren DID say

He said it wasn’t a straight steal, where the hitter is required to take the pitch, but a green light, where the hitter is allowed to swing.

by Faust on Jun 4, 2008 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

And rightly so

I’m inherently more in favor of that play than either the “take a pitch” strategy or the conventional hit-and-run. I dislike the former and despise the latter.

I’d want my hitters focusing on one thing and one thing only—hitting. What the runner does isn’t that important. Yeah, I’ll get a few more lineouts into DPs, but I’m willing to take the risk.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jun 4, 2008 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nope

With the Jump Rajai got, Emil has to take that 1st Pitch. I agree w/ you if it’s the 1st – 6th innings, but it was the bottom of the 8th inning.

Important Note: In the past week or so, I’ve seen Emil Brown get visibly upset at Rajai Davis for faking the steal (not getting a good jump), and letting a grooved fastball pass by. Tuesday NIght, Emil decided he wasn’t going to wait anymore. Bad, Bad Baseball.

by Colorado Fan on Jun 4, 2008 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Again

Emil Brown watching Rajai Davis => Emil Brown not watching pitcher.

This is a bad thing. I’m not sure why you’re having trouble with this.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jun 4, 2008 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

Don’t swing at the 1st pitch when Rajai gets a GREAT JUMP. You don’t have to look at the pitcher. Just look at the ball to make sure you don’t have to duck out of the way.

Not allowing Rajai Davis to have a FREE BAG in the Bottom of the 8th Inning in a Tie Ballgame is a bad thing. I’m not sure why you’re having trouble with this.

by Colorado Fan on Jun 4, 2008 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

How does he know Rajai Davis is getting a great jump

without looking at Rajai Davis?

Clairvoyance?

It is basically an indisputable fact (I’ve seen multiple statistical studies proving it) that having a basestealer on at first base interferes with hitters’ ability to make good contact. Why? Well, partly it’s because they are sometimes ordered to take a pitch by the bench (not the case here) but partly it’s because they are often trying to play both ends against the middle by trying to figure out if the runner is off before turning their attention to the pitcher.

Better to just focus on hitting instead of trying to coordinate something based on split-second reads. There’s a limit to the complexity that the mind can process in 2 tenths of a second.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jun 4, 2008 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Have you ever played baseball?

I’m not trying to put you down. But, have you? You seem like a really smart kid, but it doesn’t sound like you have ever stepped foot in a batters box, or taken a lead off of 1st base, or Stolen a Base, or stepped on a Pitcher’s Rubber/Mound. If I asked you what an “indicator” was, would you know?

I’m sorry, but every batter sees what runners are doing on the basepaths (peripheral vision). Very talented baseball players see how their opponents react to a runners stealing 2nd base, and have the ability to “hit it where they ain’t.”.

I don’t think Emil Brown knew the situation well enough to know that Rajai Davis was trying to get in Scoring Position w/ 2 Men out, in the bottom of the 8th inning, in a tie ball game, where a single scores a runner from 2nd Base. ALL MLB hitters can see base stealers getting Great Jumps, and can take a pitch in order to let the runner steal the base. It’s done every day… ALL THE TIME. Especially when the batter has zero strikes on them, like Emil did 2 nights ago.

by Colorado Fan on Jun 4, 2008 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hell no...

I’m 5-9, 140, with the athleticism of your average seven-toed sloth. And, I’m lazy. I wouldn’t have made it in Ladies’ Little League.

Doesn’t seem relevant, though. Hitters do worse in basestealing situations. Unless you have some other explanation for that than “they’re distracted,” I’m sticking with that one.

(Incidentally, while the matter isn’t closed, the case for “hitting it where they ain’t” is pretty flimsy too. THT had an article on this not long ago. It appears hitters can sort of push the ball to one side of the infield or the other a bit more often than average if they give up some overall hitting ability. Past that, it’s pretty much random.)

Also, in my continuing role as Emil Brown Devil’s Advocate, and because it hasn’t been mentioned yet on the thread:

Geren pointed out that Brown made a potentially game-saving play in the 10th inning when Ivan Rodriguez ripped a ball down the left-field line. Brown cut the ball off and held Rodriguez to a single. Considering Clete Thomas followed with a base hit, “that play was huge,” Geren said.

from the Chron notes.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jun 4, 2008 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

that is not always true

if you get a perfect pitch, you swing…if you’re a good enough hitter.

"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006

by flipgatey3 on Jun 4, 2008 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

If Granderson doesn't make the catch on the dive, Brown scores easily

The difference here is letting up to take it on one hop or going for the dive and catching it.

Bloopers are the toughest to judge because they’re not the same as shallow fly balls.

Where I see the tagging up play being more difficult is in Granderson letting it drop in front of him before trying to pick it up with his momentum bringing him toward the infield already. The ball was shallow enough that it was basically in no-man’s land, which is almost impossible to tag up and score from on a catch. On a bounce, maybe 50/50 depending on the speed of the runner and the throw home.

I don’t think there’s really a right or wrong answer on this one. It’s not as cut-and-dried a situation as some people want it to be, and I think a few others are just using it as another chance to tear into Emil Brown. At least some people are justifiably remembering Tony DeFrancesco’s role as a base coach, too.

The A’s won the game in the end. Maybe people should let the rest lie. It was not a typical game at all to begin with, thanks to all the walks and the improbable lack of runs scored in spite of them.

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by Flashfire on Jun 4, 2008 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's a good point

I hadn’t thought about tagging and the probability of Brown scoring if Granderson pulls up and plays it on a bounce—in all fairness, it’s hard to know that Granderson is going to end up diving for it.

I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.

by Vacafan on Jun 4, 2008 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, and I don't think any of us can be completely right or wrong on it

It’s just one of those plays where an expected result didn’t happen, someone looked bad for it, and the rest of us sit here trying to figure out what probably should have happened instead of what did. It’s easy for us to second guess it.

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by Flashfire on Jun 4, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

common sense

One of the first rules any runner is taught and stressed by a good coach is tag up everytime at 3rd base even on any lazy fly balls, bloopers, line drives, even balls that you know are home runs or over the fielder’s head. Why? because even if it is caught miracoulously you have tagged and will score. If it’s over their head or even drops in front you still will score from 90ft. The thought is to be safe, not sorry. Never should Brown of went half way home and waited. Trust me he will be fined in kangaroo court for that one. That was not a tough play for a Brown as mentioned before. You tag and leave the bag aggressively and either score or charge hard home forcing the CF to make a fsat and accurate throw home.

by daviekingman on Jun 4, 2008 8:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

+1

well explained. Guys aren’t thrown out from third on OF base-hits. It takes a lot longer to field a hop, uncork a 150-foot throw, get it to home plate, and make a tag, than people realize.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jun 4, 2008 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just said in the post-wrap thread...

...a 150-foot throw with a runner getting a start from being stopped on third is going to get there before the runner. It’s not a 300+ foot throw. You can’t outrun a thrown baseball and we’re talking a difference of about 60 feet.

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by Flashfire on Jun 4, 2008 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've never seen it happen

I’ve never seen a runner at 3rd base has to hold on a blooper that drops safely. Ever.

And, I’ve never seen a player on 3rd Base get thrown out at home on a base hit to the OF. Ever.

It’s the fundamentals that really irk me w/ Emil Brown. I let a few things slide in the past, but the mental errors just keep coming. The young players on this team don’t need to be witness to Emil’s baseball stupidity.

by Colorado Fan on Jun 4, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed!

I think if we were talking about 2006 Frank Thomas at third on that play, then all the Brown defenders would have a point. But with an average runner, none of those getting thrown out at home scenarios are a factor . . .

by oaktownmario on Jun 4, 2008 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The 3rd base coach (Defrancesco) should of been and was probally yelling “back, back” or “tag” He is not at all concerned with the 1st base runner. The 3rd base coaches job is to get that run in and aiding the runner in when the catch was made to take-off. Buck did the right thing going halfway. Ball drops he is on second easily and really that’s all he would of got. It’s caught and he has time to get back to first standing up.

by daviekingman on Jun 4, 2008 8:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Another Problem

I was watching the Tigers Telecast, and Tony D. wasn’t helping Emil Brown at all. I think he was watching the play, assuming Brown would be tagging, and helping Buck from 1st to 3rd if the ball drops.

by Colorado Fan on Jun 4, 2008 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

lets be real

This is the majors. Unless Buck is going full speed or within 15 ft of second when the ball drops, aint no way he is getting to 3rd. He would be hosed by an outfielder, no matter what his speed is. From the high college level thru the minors to pro’s. This is a 200ft throw for a runner who must tag a base and run roughly 120 plus feet. No brainer, Buck is going to second and more than likely not even rounding the base because he might get back-picked by a trailing player.

by daviekingman on Jun 4, 2008 9:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Brown brain farted . . . again

He should definitely have tagged up.

I saw the Tiger’s feed and in the replay Brown NEVER went back to tag at any time. He first went towards home about ten steps and then went back and forth (without ever touching third) undecidedly until the ball fell. When I played Little League one of the first things we learned was to go back to tag at third on a fly with less than 2 outs. Half the kids on my team got it. That means Brown is dumber than 50% of 10 year olds. J/K
Anyway, it was obvious Granderson’s only play was to dive and any smart baserunner would have seen that because the ball was up pretty long and Granderson was in a full sprint. So either (a) Granderson drops it on the dive and Brown can score or (b) Granderson catches it on a dive and Brown can still score (Granderson slid a while, stumbled to get up, and had nothing on his throw with his momentum going towards first). Also, look at Granderson’s reaction after the catch, he gets up quickly expecting Brown to tag.

And Tony D was not saying anything to Brown. I think many 3b coaches expect major leaguers to know how to run bases and when a runner can see the play on his own, they generally let the player make his own decision. Problem is, Brown is obviously too dumb to make his own decision. I bet in the future Tony D tells Brown what to do.

Finally, anyone who excuses Brown’s gaffe b/c “things happened so quickly” should think about the amount of time he had to make a decision – about 5 seconds. Batters have a fraction of that time in deciding to swing . . . so I think that provides no excuse.

by oaktownmario on Jun 4, 2008 9:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree on the first move

But do you really want to say the guy is too dumb? That is a bit harsh. But the first move should absolutely have been back to the bag—so he blew that. what he did next is still open to discussion, I think. I don’t think the “diving thing” would have been so obvious until the final second or so, meaning that if you were hugging the bag, he didn’t dive, and the ball popped up to him on a quick bounce, I’m not sure you score.

by madmongoose on Jun 4, 2008 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whether the diving thing was obvious or not

Everybody that thinks Brown did the right thing is assuming that Granderson would have just checked up and let the ball bounce to him on a hop because somehow he knew that Brown was tagging and not halfway.

There is no way he saw where Brown was on the basepath. He was completely dedicated to making the catch.

by mikev on Jun 4, 2008 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with that

see above

But again Brown didn’t know that until the last second or so—and by then he’s already down the line, so tagging is out of the question. The key decision here is the same one I think all of us in the park had when we realized as the ball was close to its apogee that it was headed dead for no man’s land. That is obviously where Brown felt he had to stay down the line—and all I’m saying is that while it was a mistake for him to be rhere in the first place, once there, i think he probably did the right thing staying put.

by madmongoose on Jun 4, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The reason tagging is out of the question by then

is because he failed to follow Basic Baserunning 101 and did not tag earlier . . . so you really can’t excuse his actions later, b/c “he didn’t tag up in the first place.”

by oaktownmario on Jun 4, 2008 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

well yeah, going back and then trying to tag would have been even dumber

by mikev on Jun 4, 2008 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It was a difficult play

A very astute baserunner would probably have noticed that Granderson was a) committed to making that catch and b) probably going to make the catch given his speed & defensive ability, and got back to the bag to tag up. While Brown is not an astute baserunner, I think it was far from a brain fart. Just a tough play…move on. We won.

by GusanoQuemador on Jun 4, 2008 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader?

Emil Brown: No!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jun 4, 2008 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's what I said to Colorado Fan just now

You don’t tag up on a shallow bloop, period.

The ball was all but landing on the grass when Granderson made an amazing catch and he got up extremely fast.

Brown wasn’t halfway down the line from what I saw, either. On a replay it looked like he was maybe 15-20 feet off the bag around the time the ball was caught. No-man’s land to be sure, but if Granderson stays up and takes it on one hop on the run, you have to be off the bag to have a good chance to score on a ball that shallow.

Standing on third base in that situation pretty much guarantees having to hold if Granderson takes it on one hop with his momentum bringing him in so close, especially with Brown not exactly being a speedburner on the bases.

I think you (again, to Colorado Fan, who told Rickeyfan & jdub69 not to teach baseball for disagreeing with his POV that Brown should’ve tagged) are seeing a different play than what actually took place. It’s not like this was even a routine fly ball to the normal outfield position.

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by Flashfire on Jun 4, 2008 9:52 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I would disagree with your characterization that it was a "bloop"

To me a bloop has much less hang time than what we saw. This was more of a shallow pop up that had a lot more hang time than a bloop, and therefore provided more time to think about the baserunning decision.

by oaktownmario on Jun 4, 2008 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, the difference between a bloop and a shallow pop up is probably...

...what, a second or two? I don’t think there’s a set-in-stone definition there.

What it all comes down to is Brown’s initial reaction. No matter what a player is taught, there will be times when he forgets it, misreads a ball, etc. Three, four or five seconds may seem like a lot of time to make a decision, but it’s not.

One way or the other it looks like a bad mistake, but it’s hardly the worst play ever like some seem to want to call it. I didn’t think Granderson was going to make that catch. He’s the one who really made it into the result it came to be.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
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by Flashfire on Jun 4, 2008 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would guess two seconds . . .

in any case I’m in the camp that it was a bad mistake. Definitely not the worst mistake ever though. I would put Byrnes’ and Tejada’s gaffes as much worse.

by oaktownmario on Jun 4, 2008 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

No doubt on Byrnes/Tejada. No doubt at all.

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by Flashfire on Jun 4, 2008 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll give you the same response here that I did over there.

If Brown was really only 15 feet of the base, it’s an even WORSE baserunning blunder.

Either commit to tagging up, or actually go freaking halfway.

by mikev on Jun 4, 2008 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's definitely a bigger problem

his total indecision on the play.

by oaktownmario on Jun 4, 2008 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

someone should look at the tape--

I really thought—but obviously any of us could be wrong—it’s like witnessing a car crash—that he was closer to halfway—and certainly at least 30 feet off third.

by madmongoose on Jun 4, 2008 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think just seeing all those walks issued is more like watching a Car Crash

It just makes me uncomfortable. Even when the opposing pitcher can’t throw strikes it makes me uneasy. I can’t really explain it. Its like watching an actor forget his lines

by GusanoQuemador on Jun 4, 2008 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I did watch the replay

Brown was nowhere near 30 feet off the bag. More like 10 feet.

Unless I’m hallucinating. Always possible.

by Faust on Jun 4, 2008 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Have You?

I’ve never seen a runner at 3rd base have to hold on a pop fly to the OF that drops safely. Ever. Have you?

And, I’ve never seen a player on 3rd Base get thrown out at home on a base hit to the OF. Ever. Have you? (Heck, Frank Thomas almost scored from 2nd base on a blooper hit to Grady Sizemore this season. Frank, friggin’, Thomas.)

by Colorado Fan on Jun 4, 2008 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Anecdote

I actually have seen a guy on third get thrown out at home on a single to the OF. The OF faked like he was going to catch it and the runner tagged. The fielder caught it on a couple hops and threw the guy out at home. It was in the majors 5-6 years ago IIRC (maybe by the Giants?).

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Jun 4, 2008 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just wondering

What does your buddy think about Buckytubes? Or String theory? Or Kraft Easy-Mac? Don’t leave me hanging…

"My boyfriend drinks ALOT, you know, because he's a rebel."-Reyna

by tresselfan on Jun 4, 2008 11:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

5.2-5.4 seconds

Mongoose asked a question up in the thread about how long the ball was in the air.

I stopwatched the play a few times and each time the ball was in the air for approximately that long on each of my timings.

I don’t know if you can call a ball that’s in the air that long a blooper or not.

"Let’s just hope he’s not a complete turd out there." -thejd44, describing Crosby's best scenario.

by notsellingjeans on Jun 4, 2008 3:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

thanks-- that fits the maddux theory perfectly

7 seconds—it’s caught for sure; 6 seconds—should be caught; 5+ it can definitely find a seam and this one was but Granderson made a great play.

maddux is a genius, by the way—in the history of baseball had anyone ever voiced that theory before?? maybe someone thought it, but it only got into print because of Maddux.

by madmongoose on Jun 4, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

"Let’s just hope he’s not a complete turd out there." -thejd44, describing Crosby's best scenario.

by notsellingjeans on Jun 4, 2008 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Up there with Ted Williams...

by As Fan in the Bronx on Jun 5, 2008 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

This just in - Geren clears up Brown tag up controversy

From SF Chronicle Notes section:

Emil Brown took some heat for failing to tag and score in the eighth inning Tuesday night when Granderson made a flying catch of Daric Barton’s little flare to right center, but Geren said Brown did the right thing. The A’s rule on a bloop is to go halfway down the line, because most bloops and flares are too shallow to tag and score on. In addition, Geren said that had the ball dropped, Magglio Ordoñez was in position to play the ball on a hop and throw home.

by jdub69 on Jun 5, 2008 4:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Sounds like exactly what I was putting out there.

Well, I see the A’s are in agreement with that theory.

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by Flashfire on Jun 5, 2008 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

as is every other

manager, coach, and anyone with an ounce of baseball instinct.

by jdub69 on Jun 5, 2008 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

More from Geren on Brown...

He said he was “completely fine” with Emil Brown’s decision to not tag up from third base when Daric Barton hit a shallow fly ball that center fielder Curtis Granderson caught on a diving catch. “It never looks like a good play when you don’t score,” Geren said, “but the rule of thumb is that if it’s not deep enough, you don’t tag.”

by jdub69 on Jun 5, 2008 4:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs