Wild (Though I Prefer Woolly)
by Nico on Jun 3, 2008 11:08 PM PDT
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PrintJack Cust's improbable infield single lifted the A's to a 5-4, 11 inning victory in a game that will best be remembered for its walks and baserunning oddities. Final Score: A's 5, Tigers 4 (11).
In a game both teams tried desperately to lose - walking 11, failing to bring runners home from third, not knowing when to get back to third or when to get back to second, and so on, the A's prevailed 5-4 on...
...Something that happens even less often than an Ivan Rodriguez or Emil Brown walk - both of which happened tonight - and that is a Jack Cust infield hit. I guess it's four true outcomes now.
So the A's survive Dana Eveland walking seven, Oakland pitchers walking 11 and hitting a batter, the A's failing to score with runners at second and third and nobody out because Emil Brown won't take a ball and Travis Buck won't swing at a strike, Brown not going back to tag and score the go ahead run in the 8th, Rajai Davis acting like he's never been on second base (which makes sense when you see him hit).
Thanks to Eric Chavez' 3-run HR to tie the game in the 5th, Geren's gutsy decision to pitch to Polanco in the 10th and Miguel Cabrera in the 11th, and Gaudin's ability to come through both times, Bobby Crosby's terrific diving catch in the 11th, and Jack Cust's blazing speed.
Games like this are why you don't try to predict anything in baseball.
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wow
just … wow.
""These guys are a different breed of ballclub." - Twins manager Ron Gardenhire on the A's
Thrilled by the win
but I’m still pissed at Davis and Brown. When Swooney comes off the DL, I hope one of these guys gets DFA’d.
"Evidently, a large number of people said, 'We really need more vermin at the ballpark, Artie.'" - Nick (AN), 10/7/07
is swooney
ryan sweeney? too many nicknames for him for me to remember them all it seems
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
rajai was safe
but that’s beside the point
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
A's pitchers walked 12...
but, one was an IBB.
Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb
In a sense, games like this make me appreciate Barry Zito a little more.
At least when he stinks it up, he usually ends all chances the Giants have of staying in the game.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Jun 3, 2008 11:13 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
In the post-game wrap-up Fosse was less praising of Emil's baserunning.
If Granderson makes the play he does and throws out a tagging runner, I think you just have to tip your cap to him for making an exceptional play. Otherwise there has to be a better outcome.
by green star oakland on Jun 3, 2008 11:15 PM PDT reply actions
Exactly - you have to force the play
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I thought so too, although the discussion below gives me pause
What struck me on the replay, watching Brown dance back and forth trying to figure out how to play it, was that DeFrancesco was just standing out there 20 feet beyond the bag, nowhere near Brown, gazing idly out at the outfield as if he had no conceivable role whatsoever on the play. I appreciate that the player has the play in front of him, but you’d think the coach might offer some advice there.
Astonishing catch, though.
Fosse was right.
Emil made the right play by running halfway down the third base line. If Brown is tagging up and Granderson doesn’t make the play and one hops the ball about 5 steps past second base even Campy Campaneris is out at home by three steps. Even a little leaguer knows that Brown made the right decisionn by running halfway down third base on that play (in my humbe opinion).
If Brown is tagging up and Granderson doesn't make the play, he fucking walks home.
Unless you think that somehow Granderson would have dove, got up, ran and got the ball, and STILL thrown out Brown at the plate.
Shannon Stewart could've thrown Brown out from 5 steps past second base...
which is where Granderson would’ve 1 hopped it standing up.
You're right there.
It was the worst possible outcome in that Granderson made a great catch. Brown got back to third, otherwise, because he was halfway home and Granderson doesn’t make the play, he walks home.
just tossing %s
10% chance the catch gets made
90% chance the ball falls in
given where it would’ve fell, emil needed to be a good chunk of the way to ensure scoring … if he was within 10 ft of third, no way he scores on a short-hop
jdub69 & Rickeyfan
Horrible baserunning by Emil. Either way, he should have been getting ready to tag from 3rd base. I would have been OK with just a “fake” tag-up by Emil.
Rickeyfan / jdub69: don’t teach baseball.
by Colorado Fan on Jun 4, 2008 12:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes, lets tell him to wait on the base
so the other 9 times out of ten when Granderson decides to let it drop and throws out Emil at home.
"Mommy and Daddy are going to take a nap before the baseball game starts..."
if the baserunning was *that* bad
What was Tony up to during the play? Twiddling his thumbs? Have you not read the entire crux of the situation emil was in?
I wouldn't have been ok with a fake tag. I want to win the game.
By being halfway home, if ball drops, we win the game. It’s really simple dude.
You don't tag up on a shallow bloop, period.
The ball was all but landing on the grass when Granderson made an amazing catch and he got up extremely fast.
Brown wasn’t halfway down the line from what I saw, either. On a replay it looked like he was maybe 15-20 feet off the bag around the time the ball was caught. No-man’s land to be sure, but if Granderson stays up and takes it on one hop on the run, you have to be off the bag to have a good chance to score on a ball that shallow.
Standing on third base in that situation pretty much guarantees having to hold if Granderson takes it on one hop with his momentum bringing him in so close, especially with Brown not exactly being a speedburner on the bases.
I think you are seeing a different play than what actually took place. It’s not like this was even a routine fly ball to the normal outfield position.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
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Are you kidding?
If he was only 10 feet off the bag (camera was on the ball/Granderson) it’s an even WORSE mistake.
However, all of you guys who are defending Brown are just assuming that Granderson would have checked up and let the ball hop to him as opposed to diving and missing the ball.
The thing is, if Granderson would have done that and Brown still didn’t try to score, then you’re sitting with a bases loaded, 1 out scenario. That’s much more desirable than 1st/3rd and 2 out.
correct
“The thing is, if Granderson would have done that and Brown still didn’t try to score, then you’re sitting with a bases loaded, 1 out scenario. That’s much more desirable than 1st/3rd and 2 out.”
And I “guarantee” most of the h8ters here would be bitching about Emil not scoring on a single and how horrible his baserunning was.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing
Would we have known it was the “right” move had it worked out the other way? Anyways, this conversation is getting ridiculous haha.
My feeling is that the best argument
for excusing Brown/Tony D. is that it was a weird play that unfolded quickly – it actually makes sense to freeze or make the wrong move first and not have a chance to recover.
But I still think it was a mistake to go halfway.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
to be completely honest he only went a third of the way.
Not halfway. My mistake.
exactly ... and then AN blows up bitching about emil
not scoring on a bloop single and how shoddy his baserunning is …
There is enough to bitch about with
Spam Brown. We dont need to add baserunning as one of them. Cant hit for average, cant get on base and is an average Outfielder at best. He does seem to have a pretty good arm though-dont know where its going half the time but he does have a strong arm.
by asfaninpismobeach on Jun 4, 2008 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions
The ball was at least 75 feet into the outfield. Have you seen the play?
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jun 4, 2008 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Not sure about that
My buddy tonight who has played the game at every level save the Minor Leagues said he would have instantly run back to the bag once the ball went in the air—then went only a few steps when it looked as if it might find the seam, not halfway. Which still gives you enough leeway to score if it drops. The far easier play for Granderson to make with a fortuitous bounce would have been the force at 2nd on Buck (wasn’t it Buck??) A 180 foot throw home if the runner has a few step head start is tough to pull off.
150-160ft throw tops ... curtis was in really shallow center
with a full head of steam
yes, but he was moving to the side
The bounce has to be perfect—he can’t juggle in the least. It’s not that simple a throw
the easy play for curtis would've been
to short-hop the ball … low risk, high momentum … good chance of making the throw from shallow center … were you watching the same play i was watching?
correction ... it wasn't even shallow center
he would’ve been a really deeply positioned 2Bman
I don't think you have an accurate concept of a baseball field
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jun 4, 2008 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
by deeply positioned
I meant similar to a “Bonds” shift … Granderson was well within 10 yds, if even that, of the infield dirt.
a ballplayer is always going to try to make the out
which was the correct play for Granderson, it turns out.
I am not all that peeved at Brown—people forget he made a heads-up play on the previous hitter when the ball popped loose from Pudge and got to third. That was a very tough call—Davis, OTOH, was simply brain dead.
maybe
if he sees emil standing on third, correct field would be the low risk play (why dive and risk the miss guaranteeing the score) on a short hop
if he sees emil halfway down, correct field would be go for the out (if he catches it, run doesn’t score, if he misses, well chances would be emil would score on a short hop halfway down)
He doesn't have 3 eyes
Did you see him sprinting for that ball—to his left? Do you think he had consciousness as to where Brown was? I seriously doubt it.
fundamental =
tag if there’s a good chance catch will be made
go third to halfway if good chance it’ll drop
right?
it was a bloop ... chances were really high that it was gonna fall in
it took a web-gem of a catch for it to be an out
if it fell in and emil wasn’t at least 1/3 of the way down, he’s an easy out
You keep assuming that if it falls in, that means Granderson didn't dive.
You are changing the scenario and the way that it happened to make it appear that tagging is the wrong thing to do.
A shallow fly ball, which it was, means you tag up.
If Granderson pulls up and lets it fall, it’s 1st and 3rd with 1 out.
If Granderson dives and misses, Brown walks home.
If Granderson dives and makes the catch, Brown is tagging up and Granderson has to make the play of the fucking decade to throw out the runer at home.
it already was 1st and 3rd
so it’s bases loaded if it falls, assuming Buck gets to 2nd in time.
Which means
tagging up and forcing the throw home, even if you’re not going to try to score, is the RIGHT play, because it loads the bases.
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you're minimally correct
to the extent that I might be giving granderson too much credit for being able to be aware of the situation (where the runner was) and process a split second decision
Diving for the catch was a high-risk play. He does not make that dive if Emil waiting to tag on third.
Instead, Emil was halfway down, so the decision became
90% of the time, dive and miss, Emil scores
10% of the time, web-gem, Emil has to go back.
I didn’t change the situation, I’m saying that Curtis, Emil, and Tony were all fully aware of it.
Granderson had NO IDEA where Emil was on that play.
None. His focus was 100% on the ball, he was going to dive no matter what.
Seriously, it’s like basic fucking little league, you hear it all the time when you’re on third base
Ground ball – hold up
Line Drive – make sure it gets through
Fly Ball – tag up
Basically, Frank Thomas and Bengie Molina
should go halfway and everyone else should go back to tag. The notion that if the ball dropped, Granderson could throw him out at the plate without making a terrific play where you just “tip your hat,” is incorrect.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
actually, playing the single would've been the easy, low risk play
for granderson. And considering his proximity to the infield, it would’ve been easy to gun down a tagging emil. Granted, in that case, it would’ve been bases loaded with one out. But emil would’ve been tarred and feathered here for not scoring on a bloop single. Damned if he did, damned if he didn’t. Thank goodness for Cust’s V6 for ensuring that play became moot.
That's just incorrect
If Brown is on the bag at third and takes off when he sees Granderson will play it on a hop, by the time Granderson releases the ball to make a 150-foot throw – which involves seeing the ball into his glove, then taking two steps and a crow-hop while re-angling his body, Brown is nearly halfway to the plate running full speed, and it takes a strong and perfect throw to get him. You are underestimating the time it takes to release a strong and accurate 150 foot throw from having just run full speed.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
See about a half dozen or more reasons above why you are wrong about him being wrong.
Pay special attention to the basic fundamental statement of “You don’t tag up on a shallow bloop, period” and go from there.
Well, I can't say with certainty that me saying that is correct.
It’s just my gut instinct because most people don’t score on a caught blooper, but if it drops in being on the base doesn’t automatically guarantee scoring either.
It’s different from a shallow fly ball where an outfielder is able to get a controlled running start toward the infield. On a blooper, it’s not going to be deep enough to score a run on a tag play anyway so my belief is you should at least be off the bag ready to run if it falls in.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
jamesvenes.com - Blog
Just sayin'
I put it as an absolute and I thought I should explain why.
Besides, I don’t believe the Little League-coached rule of “Less than 2 outs, you ALWAYS tag from third” is right 100% of the time. It’s a great base rule, but there will be exceptions.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
jamesvenes.com - Blog
You don't tag on a shallow bloop
that looks like it has a great chance to be caught without the OF leaving his feet. On a ball that is in no-man’s land where the OF has to come a long way, the situation is different.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah, and this fit the latter description.
No-man’s land, long run for Granderson, and a diving catch that a lot of players probably don’t make. It definitely wasn’t a routine catch running in and staying up.
But where I disagree is that you should be tagging on that situation.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
jamesvenes.com - Blog
Right.
So you want to be down the line a bit so if he doesn’t make the catch you can score. Not get easily thrown out at home because you were standing on third base tagging up.
I just see it this way
In a shallow outfield situation like that, even the fastest runner is going to have a tough time scoring from a dead stop at third base while the outfielder only has to throw about 150 feet. We’re not talking about a throw 300+ feet away. That ball will get home faster than the runner.
Compare that to someone a quarter to a third of the way down the line, already in motion. If it drops in, he coasts home. If it’s caught, he’s still close enough to get back to third in time.
Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe it’s just a disagreement I have with a particular part of the baserunning rules. Maybe that would disqualify me to be a manager. Be that as it may, it’s my belief.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
jamesvenes.com - Blog
"he was going to dive no matter what."
props to you … didn’t realize you were on granderson’s 5 to call after the game to explain how the play unfolded from his point of view.
and for the record, it was a bloop … fly ball with line drive effect (i.e. appeared likely to drop, ergo “make sure it gets through”/drops)
Were you even watching the game?
Line drive effect? Seriously?
It was a short fly ball that hung up in the air long enough for Granderson to make a fantastic catch. How can you possibly think that while Granderson was completely focused on catching the ball he would somehow know where Brown was, whether it was tagging up at third or halfway down the basepath? Have you ever actually played the outfield? The whole point is catching the ball, you rely on your teammates to pick you up and tell you where the throw needs to go after you field the ball.
read the parenthetical (and yes, I was watching)
by line drive effect, I meant it had a much higher chance of falling in than a ‘routine’ fly ball .. too far for an infielder, but close enough to require extraordinary effort from the outfielder. I have yet to see anyone here that watched the play dispute that it was the type of ball that would fall in 9 times out of 10.
Granderson had full momentum in the direction of somewhere between 1st and home. Short of you having both Granderson’s cell phone and/or a time machine for alternate realities (where Emil tags), I find it dubious that you can guarantee Granderson would dive in all cases. I’m using Occam’s Razor and going with the simpler explanation of the event.
I'm not guaranteeing that he would dive in all cases.
But, since you said yourself that Granderson had full momentum because he was basically at an all out sprint, it doesn’t make a lot of sense that he’d be able to pull up nice and easy and then let the ball drop, does it?
Assuming that he does, though, and Brown stays at 3rd, wouldn’t that be a better outcome (bases loaded, 1 out) than what happened last night (1st/3rd, 2 out)?
Except it wouldn't have been the throw of the decade - it would've been an easy throw out..
If Granderson makes the catch (which he did 5 steps behind second base) and Brown is standing on third when he makes the catch then Granderson (or any other center fielder in the league) gets up and easily throws out Brown at home.
true but...
I was directly behind home plate and that ball was very tough to read as to your two outcomes—first it looked like it would be caught, then drop, then Granderson came out of nowhere
given that
correct running would be
get back to third … when it looks like it’s gonna fall (in shallow center / deep 2nd) get your ass down the line to improve chance of scoring…
and then crap – didn’t expect that catch
Oh my goodness...
You’re still on this? It’s still the wrong baserunning play..From Little League to game 7 of the World Series…and everywhere in between.
Bring back Hammer.
Except that every coach (big league or little league) or ex catcher (like Ray Fosse) would tell you it was the right play.
I go with the coach’s and Ray Fosse on this one.
'omg'? 'wtf', were you *watching* the same play?
It was not as simple as you make it out to be …
If you’re dealt a 16 in blackjack, do you always hit? No, because it depends on what the dealer is showing, right?
Emil down halfway = dealer showing a face card.
Emil within 10 ft of 3rd = dealer showing a 5.
What’s your call as a fielder?
If you say ‘hit me’, I don’t want you ever at my blackjack table.
first its the coaching at third that would have told him to go or stay. And it was mgmt, who decided that were not going to force brown with only one out. The go ahead run is on third, who is a slow runner, you let your next guy hit with 2 out to win.
by TheGreenGoldCrush on Jun 4, 2008 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Emil Brown School of Baserunning
Look, folks. Let’s put an end to this. We’re dealing with Emil Brown. Just look back to opening night in Tokyo for a rememberence of his baserunning prowess. If the play called for a tag, Brown would go half way. If it called for him to go half way, he would tag. If it called for him to go on contact, he’d be planted on the bag….
Brown is pretty much the poster child
for “bad baseball instincts”, isn’t he…
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I admit I bailed after 9
The person i was with has to get up at 545 to go to work, so I missed Crosby’s catch (was it?), Raj’s Romp, and Cust’s Crushing Blow.
That said, a few observations.
The Tigers are doomed this year. if you can’t win games that are handed to you with that lineup, fuhgeddabout it.
Chavy!! Not only the homer, but the line shot the first time up, and one of several game saving defensive plays—all ours save Granderson—turning the DP to bail out Embree.
And Crosby quietly worked a couple of crucial walks as well as the 11th inning catch.
As for Brown, the guy was with has played the game a lot. His view is that the instant the ball was hit, brown should have retreated to the bag (he did not, did he??) then when it looked as if it might fall into no man’s land move a few steps down the line, but he said it was clear three or four Granderson steps out that he would be diving for the ball—Brown could have reretreated to the bag and tagged and scored, or scored if Granderson’s misses the ball.
That’s an informed opinion—it was a tough play—not as bad as Davis’ dumb decision, and not that hard to see how Brown got lost.
Let’s hope Eveland and Embree remember how to throw strikes next time.
ZIGGY!!
Emil Brown
The guy is garbage, and he’s hitting 5th consistently? I know Thomas and Sweeney and others are out right now, but there are other options, aren’t there? Early in the game, when Wilis couldn’t find the strike zone and had walked two straight hitters are 4 straight or something, Brown comes up there hacking and strikes out. Is Geren still playing him because of his early season heroics? Come on! Billy needs to step in here.
Just wait a little while
You saw a bona fide major league CFer tonight. When sweeney comes back, brown is relegated to platoon duty with either Buck or Sweeney.
God, I hope so.
Emil’s AB vs. Dontrelle was the worst AB I’ve seen this year. And he’s supposed to be our “Slugger” vs. Left-Handed Pitching.
The more I see Emil play baseball, the more I want to puke in my mouth. Nice month of April, but he really he has no clue.
by Colorado Fan on Jun 4, 2008 12:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Out of line
While I grow frustrated with bad play and dubious lineup decisions, I think calling one of our players garbage is uncalled for. There has to be a better way to express one’s frustrations with Brown’s shortcomings as a player.
I agree. DFA Davis and Brown
Give the starting positions to Sweeney and anyone else. Nice will tonight, albeit ugly!
by A'sfansince1970 on Jun 3, 2008 11:18 PM PDT reply actions
Can't believe you forgot Ziggy and Street!!!!!
They kept the A’s in the game FOR SURE! Ziggy came in with bases loaded, one out, and got out of the jam with only the lone run scoring, and after Chavy tied the game at 3, he pitched a perfect sixth. Ziggy and Street were the only pitchers that looked REALLY sharp out there.
So, bring on Bonds! Or, not... then, bring back Langerhans!! -One won lost one
Sorry, too focused on the many, many
players on both teams who tried desperately to make sure their team lost.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Hahahahaha...that's what I thought ;-)
So, bring on Bonds! Or, not... then, bring back Langerhans!! -One won lost one
by baseballgirl on Jun 4, 2008 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Street's velocity was down again
at least according to the TV gun.
I was afraid he’d get lit up like a Christmas tree, to be honest. I know it’s late, but he’d better sneak a peek at the tape before tomorrow’s game.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Third day in a row - his velocity has always been down
He should get two days off now.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Dunno about that...
Damn near the whole bullpen got worked over tonight. You really want to entrust the 9th inning to a closer platoon of Dallas Braden and Kiko Calero?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
and I wouldn't put him out there 4 days in a row
under any situatio.
The A's colors are green and gold.
hope Duke pitches well
and hope the bats come alive vs. robertson.
I would seriously doubt we’ll see Ziggy, Foulke or street tomorrow.
Ziggy will definitely be available
Gaudin will definitely not be available and almost surely not Street. Probably not Foulke…
CG would be nice.
The A's colors are green and gold.
Gameday shows he topped out at 88 on his fastball...
course, Gameday also shows he threw 5 consecutive changeups to Carlos Guillen, with three of them being 86, 86and 87 mph. So, I’m not sure how reliable Gameday is.
Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb
by FoolshGame22 on Jun 3, 2008 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know who deserved to win this one
I do know who deserved to lose (their paychecks): the umpires.
I mean, wow. Jesus. I’d send that crew to AAA tomorrow if I was the GM of umpiring.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
At the end of the day
we wanted to lose it less.
by green star oakland on Jun 3, 2008 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Well...
All of the Walks were legit.
- Are you talking about Crosby’s catch (I think it was a good call)?
- Rajai’s bad baserunning (Yeah, he was probably safe).?
- Clete XXXXX (Tigers) getting thrown out at home in the 8th (another close call)?
by Colorado Fan on Jun 4, 2008 12:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Agreed! Ziggy looked sharp and Street looked awesome.
Embree, Foulke and Gaudin looked shakky but were able to rally.
by A'sfansince1970 on Jun 3, 2008 11:20 PM PDT reply actions
yes, but the rallies were
a) a fabulous DP started by Chavy—making us remember what we’ve been missing. Not sure Hannahan or 90% of ML 3Bmen make that play;
b) a great throw by Gonzalez and even better block/tag by Suzuki;
c) a great catch (?—was it?) by Crosby.
Let’s give the credit where it’s due—A’s defense saved this game
And Barton's scoop of Chavez' throw
That was HUGE.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yup, you're right
forgot that one because I only “heard” it.
Maybe he is a Gold Glover??
Crosby's "catch" wasn't
Then again, Davis was safe.
As far as I can tell, the only ump who didn’t seriously botch at least one call was the third base ump… because he didn’t make any.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I'm 99% sure Crosby caught that ball
It bounced, but it didn’t hit the dirt. The 2nd Base Umpire was right on that play.
by Colorado Fan on Jun 4, 2008 12:59 AM PDT up reply actions
bounced, but the glove was underneath
pretty clear IMO about that. It was a catch, and Crosby didn’t hesitate, or look to throw to 1st.
"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer
by One won lost won on Jun 4, 2008 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
No, it wasn't...
The TV replay was, as they say, “conclusive visual evidence.”
Of course Crosby didn’t hesitate. He had no play other than to sell the catch.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
What??!!
“Who are you going to believe, me, or your own two eyes??!”
Groucho Marx
I think I saw the same replay as you. I’m sticking with “glove on the ground, ball hit glove ” until Crosby says otherwise.
"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer
by One won lost won on Jun 4, 2008 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Chavez' Slide
I was just watching the highlights and man did I cringe when I saw Chvez’ ugly slide into home on Buck’s single. I was just praying he didn’t tweak something. I wouldn’t mind seeing him DH tomorrow after 11 innings at 3rd today!
The other thing about that play
and God there’s a lot to talk about tonight, ain’t there?
is Chavy’s read on that ball. he never hesitated—now it’s true the throw beat him but it took a perfect throw to do so—that was good and smart baserunning, unlike some others tonight.
It definitely looked like he might have gotten hurt,
but he went out the next inning and hit again, so he should be ok. I bet he sits out tomorrow, regardless.
The A's colors are green and gold.
I love these types of games
and I hate the “deserved to lose” or “deserved to win” thing at other times. This was just a damn exciting game.
I find it very refreshing to see the other team generally outhit and oupitch, but still win. And we had a couple very frustrating innings not getting guys in in scoring position, but Tigers fans must have been driven insane getting jack shit in all those promising innings. The A’s pitched out of jams time after time, and got a little lucky at the end to win, and to that I say “Awesome game!”
Also:
Ziggy looks damn good.
Player of the game Chavy is back!
The A's colors are green and gold.
I dunno
It was exciting and competitive.
It was also just piss-poor baseball, fundamentally speaking, from everyone concerned. Walks all over the place, horrible decisions at the plate, on the mound, in the field, and by the managers… and the game ends because a pitcher didn’t cover first base on a grounder.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
matter of taste of course...
fundamental baseball is not so exciting (and I can easily forget infuriatingly bad fundamentals when lose, since it’s a lot less likely to repeat than “being bad at baseball.”)
And as far as “good baseball,” that was a damn nice throw by the Patrol Craft to save the game…
The A's colors are green and gold.
You know me, I'm not talking about sacrifices and steals
I’m talking about things like “not throwing gopherballs in 0-2 counts.” And “not getting thrown out at home plate on a bad jump with one out.” (Both teams did that, though the A’s got bailed out.)
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Yeah, still,
Especially when we win, I’m more bothered by poor play talent-wise than mental mistakes, and I’m quite pleased when we come out on top despite the mental mistakes. Mental mistakes don’t get me depressed about the team the way getting owned by the pitcher does.
The A's colors are green and gold.
The A's would have been owned
had any of Detroit’s pitchers been able to hit the strike zone…
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Well, maybe (Willis can't throw strikes)
but this series was a bad matchup because we have a lefty-centric lineup, and their pitchers have sucked except these particular starters against lefties. So I’m feeling damn good about it. Carlos Gonzalez for instance looked great in Texas, but his failure against Rogers and Willis was extremely predictable, despite those guys sucking. Frank Thomas and Mike Sweeney should have owned these guys.
The A's colors are green and gold.
I went back and looked
at CG’s at bats against both lefties. Seems like he put good moves on a few balls and just hit it foul or fouled it off. Once he got into the pitchers count he was dead meat though. If he ever figures out how to work a count and get into alot of hitters counts , he will become very dangerous.
by asfaninpismobeach on Jun 4, 2008 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Geren's horrible decisions??
Let’s review them—
1) He got eveland out of there in the 5th—Eveland couldn;t find home plate—correct decision;
2) he chose Ziggy to try to get the Dp with the bases juiced. didn’t work but Ziggy kept the damage to a minimum and threw another strong inning in the 6th;
3) Ziggy out; embree in. OK—this one is tougher, but the guy next to me said ziggy has been used almost exclusively for 1 IP this year—and he had gone 1 2/3. Embree was facing RHers—but do we trust Calero enough at this stage? Because once you go away from Embree in the 7th, why not stay that way in the 8th—which means Foulke, gaudin and Kiko is in the wings since you’re not totallt sure you use Street. Maybe the wrond decision but not horrible.
4) Foulke. either him or gaudin. so Foulke worked the 8th and gaudin got the extra innings. Tough call either way—wouldn’t call this horrible;
5) Street. I was all for it. tie game in the 9th—use the damn closer;
6) davis pinch-running—didn’t work out, did it? theory made sense, though Hannahan would have been a step down at 1B.
7) Gonzalez bunting. No problem with this
8) pitching to Polanco—I was going across the Bay Bridge at the time and said yes to this one even as Vince predicted they would walk PP and was stunned that they didn’t. In a tie game why put gaudin in fear of a walk by loading the bases—with two outs?? And look what Thames did to him the next inning. Sure PP is an A’s killer, but at some point you have to simply take the bit in your mouth.
Can’t think of any others—all in all, not a bad game by geren, in my book
And I actually agree with ALL of this, except 8
No WAY do I pitch to PP.
So, bring on Bonds! Or, not... then, bring back Langerhans!! -One won lost one
by baseballgirl on Jun 4, 2008 12:07 AM PDT up reply actions
But you do have the point that everyone but Street and Ziggy
walked people all over the place & you needed the empty base cushion.
How in the HELL was this game 5-4??!!?
So, bring on Bonds! Or, not... then, bring back Langerhans!! -One won lost one
by baseballgirl on Jun 4, 2008 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions
The decision to put Embree in
was an unbelievably stupid one. Your bullpen has how many lefties? (Greek chorus: “Two.”) And how many righties? (“Four.”) How many consecutive right-handed hitters were in line to face Embree? (“Seven.”) What type of pitching do they eat for lunch? (“Lefty.”)
So, you bring in a lefty?? I mean, WTF? Embree is basically useless against that Tigers lineup except as a mop-up/desperation man or as a one-batter guy against Curtis Granderson. Clearly the #5 option there on a skill basis. I can understand not bringing in Street. Can’t understand taking Embree over any of the other three right-handed guys.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Well...
I don’t think a decision to use a competent major league reliever in the 7th inning of a tie game with no baserunners is ever “unbelievably stupid” Wrong, maybe. But “unbelievably stupid??
Guillen is a switch hitter so he doesn’t count in this discussion. We don’t know Embree’s track record against the specific Tiger hitters he was facing—and maybe its’ better than we think. And there is the Calero question—yes, he’s back and you have to use him—but he has not been that type of situation all year at this level.
I tend to think it was the wrong decision—maybe geren’s only mistake—but “unbelievably stupid”?? No, i won’t go that far.
Guillen was the 5th batter in the inning after 4 RHHs...
So bring in Embree to face him! I don’t really trust Calero, so I don’t blame him for that, but since Gaudin was available to for 2 innings, bring him in there. Seems like an easy call. Or keep going with Ziggy.
But again: the bullpen is in bad shape without Casilla and Devine. At least there is good news on Casilla.
The A's colors are green and gold.
To me, going Embree 7th / Foulke 8th
instead of Foulke / Embree was a mistake, but not as blatant as having Zach Miner pitch to Buck, Barton, Gonzalez in the 8th inning with a 4-3 lead when Seay was available. What exactly was Leyland thinking there? Must be an “old school” thing.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Note that my above comment
did not excuse the Tigers of poor ball… nor should it have, as they played at least as bad a fundamental game as the A’s did.
The 3B coach sending the runner on the Gonzalez play was basically inexcusable given Gonzalez’s arm and the runner’s terrible jump. Leyland botched his bullpen usage, as usual. (Tactically speaking, I think he’s one of the worst managers in baseball.) Renteria’s decision to throw to second on the Davis play (how is a 50-50 chance of nailing Davis worth the possibility of not getting the second out on the play??) was equalled only in brainlessness by Davis’s own loafing—and he was bailed out by a bad call from the umpire.
...and then there was the winning play. Which was pretty innocuous, except that it was the winning play, and maybe you kinda want to cover first there just in case seeing as how it’s the winning run about to score.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Clete
He had a few horrible baserunning blunders that inning. He was nearly picked off twice, and sending him should have been a moot point because a good base runner (especially one with his speed) is already standing on third.
The play that got him into scoring position was a base hit to right field. It was towards the line and it was very, very clearly a base hit off the bat. If he gets even a decent read off the bat and an ok jump, he takes third easily. Buck played the ball fine, but he doesn’t have a Guerrero arm and he had to go to his left (towards the line).
So, to agree with your general point: that was some awful baseball last night.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Jun 4, 2008 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions
PT tends to be pretty certain of his opinions
I mean, really certain – and so naturally he’s quite vehement in dealing with all those other obviously wrong opinions out there.
You and he are really such opposites... ;-)
Exactly right, and exactly right in its vehemance
They at least had a few LHHs at the bottom of the order. They have a bunch of great right handed hitters in the middle of that order and we were lucky it wasn’t worse. It seemed like stupid “gotta go with my experienced arm” thinking.
The A's colors are green and gold.
I've never been disappointed when I've gone with my experienced arm
Who has Cust love, besides us? @('.')@
The umps made some very questionable calls today
First the obvious: The 3-2 pitch to Mags was a strike. And Raj was safe at second. There also were a couple other questionable strike calls. And in my opinion (but not Fosse’s) the ball to Crosby definitely bounced. I couldn’t tell if the runner CarGo threw out was really out at home but it was close. But, some of the calls went in our favor, some went in the Tigers favor. In the end, they all pretty much evened out.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
That's about right,
I think the A’s got the better of it tonight, just because the play at the plate and Crosby’s catch were huge plays. I think that more than made up for the dubious balls and strikes earlier.
The A's colors are green and gold.
I was directly behind home plate
And while cousins (someone said that was the HP ump) was a bit inconsistent, the truth is that nearly all of those 22 or whatever it was walks were deserved. Absolutely horrific pitching from several players on both sides, most notably Willis and Eveland, of course.
I did not see Eveland's first 3 walks
I know that his first two walks in the 5th inning should have been strikeouts, and he should have been up 0-1 to Cabrera (the third batter).
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Definitely true for Cabrera,
the others were borderline (and the walks in the second were not really close at all.) Gameday liked the umpiring and I typically agree with gameday 90% of the time when I watch a close pitch on tv and the check it, so I can’t fault the umps at all for the first two in the 5th.
The A's colors are green and gold.
we saw different pitches, i guess
I didn’t think he got jobbed in those sequences—nor was he around the plate enough to get those calls, IMHO. I mean from where I was sitting neither of the starters had much command, though Willis had the better reason.
Just got home - I survived!
What a weird game- record for most walks in a game in Oakland I believe. I gotta think the umps were squeezing the pitchers… why else so many walks? Hard to tell from sect 225 though.
Great to see Chavvy back… he strangely seems so much older. And the young Zig-meister dominating (first since Mike Norris to have a pick off for first out recorded as an A’s pitcher). I’m drained and rather cold but wow, two walk off wins in a row… I’ve gotta go tomorrow!
less squeezing than you think
Utter lack of command by Willis and Eveland. And Gallaraga his first inning and Embree too—and Embree’s cripple 0-2 pitch to Guillen was the worst pitch of the night—a horrific hanging curve of some sort
It was a small strike zone
but mostly terrible command. Really only 3-4 of the 22 could have gone differently, and those 3-4 were debatable as they always are (except for a swinging strike 1 against Embree…)
The A's colors are green and gold.
I was in 217
smack behind the plate, and Mike, you are correct.
Not gonna see high/low from up there...
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I'd say the home plate umpire did a better than average job tonight
The A's colors are green and gold.
I can't figure out what game you were watching
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
not sure, but believe me
I had a much better view of inside-outside than you did watching on TV. High-low you are correct.
And that's a good point
the TV angle is funky for inside/outside because the camera is off to the side. You get a much better view in 117/217 for inside/outside than on tv.
The A's colors are green and gold.
Yes, I am... because they frigging suck at their jobs
which are actually not that difficult. And would be made even easier if readily available technology was used in place of the Mark One Eyeball.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Wow
Too bad we couldn’t clone you about 50 times over and let you umpire all the games, you obviously have a lot of experience umpiring major league baseball games, right? Either that or you’re just incredibly pompous.
"He's a misfit. He gets along with everyone." - Reggie Jackson, describing Joe Rudi
Oh, come off it
If you think umpiring experience is necessary to tell that, you know, a runner was safe who was called out, well, I don’t really know what to tell you.
I will say this: equip me with instant replay and a Pitch F/X buzzer, both technologies that there’s pretty much no excuse for MLB not using, and I would be confident that I could do a better job than most of today’s umpires. It’s not so much that they’re bad at what they’re doing (though many are) as that they’re trying to cut down trees with an axe instead of a chainsaw.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Glad Zumaya was still rehabbing in minors topping 100 mph several times
That is some serious heat
LOL Huston Street said he wanted Custy to walk
so the A’s could get the walk record.
Why did you think the Man would end the debate, Yoda ?
by green star oakland on Jun 3, 2008 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Just back from the game
To mark the occasion, I walked home.
Don't blame me, I voted for oaktoon.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jun 3, 2008 11:55 PM PDT reply actions
That's why the A's employ hustlers like Jack Cust instead of lazy-asses like you
The A's colors are green and gold.
did you sprint the final 90 feet...
in honor of Cust’s walkoff infield single?
Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb
by FoolshGame22 on Jun 4, 2008 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions
You can't teach speed...
"He's a misfit. He gets along with everyone." - Reggie Jackson, describing Joe Rudi
good place for A's gear other than the coliseum?
I’m visiting from Iowa and wanted to get back to the hotel instead of going to the gift shop after the game… I don’t think I can make the shop during the regular hours before I fly out Thursday. Anywhere (relatively easy to get to by public transportation) with a decent selection of shirts/hats?
It's pretty poor anywhere other than the Coliseum
You can usually find one or two of the most basic at Target—there’s one at Bayfair in San Leandro (Bayfair BART). If you’re flying out of Oakland, the airport gift shops have a few A’s items.
Don't blame me, I voted for Ice Cream
by Englishmajor on Jun 4, 2008 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions
I was at the game tonight and yesterday.
It was a great game…and I really enjoyed seeing the pitchers warm up. We sat in section 126 row 2 and yesterday in row 4. I rarely sit in that section and I forgot how enjoyable it is to see the players close up.
It was great seeing Ziggy do allright ,,,and yesterday he signed a ball for me. I also got to visit with IMASEASONTICKETHOLDER so that made it fun too.
The pitchers warmed up?
Didn’t look like it!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Another weird win...
Not very believable with this terrible lineup. It seems like every other day that half the lineup has 0-fers. The A’s really need a .300 hitter, they can’t win with mediocre to sub-par years from everybody. Even the Giants have a couple of .300 hitters right now in Rowand and Molina. On the other hand, I do love June.
Oh great, another lefty pitcher on Wed.
I think he's never probable
Just a pleasant surprise each time.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Credit where credit is due
Lew Wolff was at the game last night, in his usual seats right behind the A’s dugout. It was a pretty cold night, more than most, and Lew stayed straight through the very end, when there couldn’t have been more than 2,000 fans left in the park.
Also, he seems to have gotten himself a green A’s hoodie, a big sartorial step up over the thrift store tan windbreaker he’s worn to games for the past few years.
Don't blame me, I voted for oaktoon.
Speaking of hoodies...
I REALLY like the slate/granite colored hoodies the guys were wearing last night. The online shop shows them on the first page of the men’s stuff, but I can’t find them. Anyone have any ideas? Am I just missing it?
"JOAN! Are you watching Bombast? Did you see Lack Bust drop that fly call?"
My son has one. He loves it!
He bought it at the coliseum (and I couldn’t find it on the online site either). Maybe someone can pick one up for you? I’d offer to but I’m not sure when we’re going next.
Tigers fan here
So, Blez, do you still think this is a really good Tigers team? We have been waiting 2+ months for them to flip the switch and are still waiting. Each week yields the same results in a different manner. You really have to watch this team to believe that even w/ the collection of talent they have that they will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory most nights.
I like the makeup of your club and hope that Harden stays healthy so that you can give LAAA a run this fall.
Antidote to Tuesday's game?
Extraordinary fact from oaklandathletics.com:
Duchscherer has never walked more than two batters in 205 career appearances. That is hard to believe.
Jinx ;-)
So, bring on Bonds! Or, not... then, bring back Langerhans!! -One won lost one
by baseballgirl on Jun 4, 2008 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Don't start
I once wrote the words “no hitter” about 5 innings into a Haren start and got crushed on the game thread. Kind of ironic given the empiric nature of this site!
His pitch count efficiency may come in especially handy today,
to avoid scenarios like “closer Kiko Calero…” and “Braden trying to hold this one-run lead for Calero to try to save it…”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Braden! He's only on the roster because, well, someone's got to be.
"He's a misfit. He gets along with everyone." - Reggie Jackson, describing Joe Rudi
Wow, what a thread
I enjoyed the game despite the sloppiness. it was very dramtic the whole night. I was yelling at the TV on that last play “run Jack run!”. awesome game.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
Forrest Cust?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
This just in... Geren clears up Emil Brown tag up controversy
From SF Chronicle Notes section:
Emil Brown took some heat for failing to tag and score in the eighth inning Tuesday night when Granderson made a flying catch of Daric Barton’s little flare to right center, but Geren said Brown did the right thing. The A’s rule on a bloop is to go halfway down the line, because most bloops and flares are too shallow to tag and score on. In addition, Geren said that had the ball dropped, Magglio Ordoñez was in position to play the ball on a hop and throw home.
Geren pointed out that Brown made a potentially game-saving play in the 10th inning when Ivan Rodriguez ripped a ball down the left-field line. Brown cut the ball off and held Rodriguez to a single. Considering Clete Thomas followed with a base hit, “that play was huge,” Geren said.
(I’m thinking of a great song by The Hives right now but will just Geren’s clarification put this to rest).
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