What To Do With Zito ...
by solotar on Jun 18, 2008 2:24 PM PDT
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PrintBe realistic for a moment: what should the Giants do with Zito? He got killed again today: lots of walks, lots of hits, 5 runs in 2 innings. He isn't just bad any more. He isn't just really bad. He's the worst pitcher in all of baseball. What should the Giants do?
I tend to think they should send him down to AAA, but what do I know?
Here's what I do know: the Giants are actually a reasonably interesting, reasonably likable, reasonably competititve team. Without Zito, they might actually have a decent shot at getting to .500.
I like Sabean, too. Whenever you hear the guy on KNBR he always seems like a kind and decent human being. But on the same day I sent Zito down, I'd fire Sabean. You just can't sign a contract like that to Barry Zito and keep your job. No way.
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I'd "Dontrelle Willis" Zito
Rest, Build Arm Strength & Watch Old A’s Footage w/ Rick Petersen for 1 month straight. Then straight to San Jose to finish the season w/ 5 or 6 Starts.
Count me as another supporter of this proposal
Right now Zito is not a major league pitcher. But, hey, he’s got five years to figure out how to become one again.
I’m pretty sure he’d accept the assignment, because I’m sure he wants to regain his effectiveness as much as anyone else does.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
He said that being DFA'd was not going to fix anything.
I guess they should just keep asking him after each start. How about now? No. How about now? No. How about now? Okay. Maybe it would help.
Was Black Snake Moan a comedy or a drama?
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jun 18, 2008 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions
"reasonably interesting, reasonably likable, reasonably competititve"
well, two out of three anyway.
Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.
http://www.nomadsurfers.com/English/Malaysia/malaysia_wavepool.html
The A's colors are green and gold.
I disagree with all of your statements about the Gnats
and I don’t know how other people feel about this, but I honestly feel that Zito must have been taking PEDs.
The infusion of testing coincides with his decline, he continues to be healthy, I don’t think anything’s different about his mechanics, yet his fastball is slower than what you would get at many high school games.
Note:
Didn't finish my note:
Pure speculation my part.
by oaktownmario on Jun 18, 2008 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think so
His velocity has been declining gradually since he got to the Majors.
Pessimism FTW! ... Wait what?
Wrong about mechanics
take a look at this article from the Hardball Times. This dude totally breaks down Zito’s mechanicals – from his days in Oakland to now.
Also, I highly doubt he was taking PEDs. There really isnt any evidence that would suggest it. He isnt drastically larger than he was when he came up as a rookie; he never threw that hard to begin with; he isnt and never has been hurt.
President of the Brent Gates Fan Club
by SoCal As Fan on Jun 18, 2008 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I stand corrected about his mechanics
but I thought there were some PEDs for pitchers that didn’t really make them bulk up – Petitte? Clemens?
Maybe I remember wrong but I thought at times Zito could hit 91, and routinely worked in the 88 – 90 range in his better years. Now he hardly gets past 84. That’s a big difference and to me that seems suspicious.
by oaktownmario on Jun 18, 2008 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Clemens is huge ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Yes. PED's for injuries are just as helpful as those for "horse-like" strength.
Was Black Snake Moan a comedy or a drama?
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jun 18, 2008 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow..
I had not seen that to this point. I wonder if that is the next area where hard facts instead of touchy feely guessing will enter the sport of baseball. Videotaping pitchers and applying physics to the throwing motion to develop better pitchers from 13th round draft picks.
I don't really care about Barry Zito any more except to say...
...better that this is happening with him on another team than in Oakland. He was starting to lose it here but he’s gone into the crapper in the orange and black.
Oh well.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
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Isn't this on the wrong Blog?
Only way this applies to us is if we’re thinking of acquiring Zito Frank-Thomas-wise (prorated league minimum for the legnth of his contract), hiring Rick Peterson to work with him for a month, then bringing hm back as a reliever.
Pessimism FTW! ... Wait what?
Why do you think this blog is only for things Oakland?
The situation doesn’t have to apply to the A’s to be worthy of a fanpost/discussion.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I can't remember if Zito ever pitched in Oakland or not.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
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Oakland A's fans are fully capable of
appreciating discussions beyond the current A’s, mikev.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Bring back Miggy!
Not really.
Was Black Snake Moan a comedy or a drama?
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jun 18, 2008 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Bring back Miggy (revised)
I hope Houston gets scheduled to visit the Coliseum next year.
That’s how to bring back Miggy!
"You have to have a catcher or you'll have all passed balls."- Casey Stengel
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 18, 2008 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Of course they are.
But, I thought the whole idea/point/whatever of SBNation was to have blogs for each team easily accessible to everybody, and to have team content on each blog.
This seems like it should be posted on MCC.
I just don't see why you wouldn't expect
a fanpost about “something other than specifically current A’s players” to interest fans on AN. Especially when the topic surrounds a former key player on the A’s.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It's a big internet out there
If you don’t want to read it, don’t. If nobody on AN wants to read it, the diary will disappear with hardly a trace.
I believe when it's an occasional fanpost about a former player, it's fine.
It’s not like people are talking about Alex Rodriguez and Derek Jeter here all the time.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
jamesvenes.com - Blog
We can burn him, bury him, or dump him.
"May a nit suck Cajun geese?" wonders Red. No, we see gnu Jack Cust in a yam.
Not that I care but you are way off
The Giants have played the 24th hardest schedule in all of baseball, meaning they have played a very easy schedule and they are 10 game sunder 500 and 1.5 games ahead of a Colorado Rockies team that is just horrible.
Without Zito, they would have to rely on Pat Misch or whatever the heck that guys name was.
They are a bad team, with a bad farm system and no desire to do what has to be done in order to move forward.
This Does Not Apply to You ...
Of course this has nothing to do with the A’s … any more that the accident on the freeway has anything to do with most of us who chose to drive by it very, very slowly. I don’t want to sign him, I don’t want to trade for him, I don’t want to rehabilitate him. As a guy who has been extremely negative on Zito’s pitching for a long, long time (especially on AN) I’m nonetheless curious to hear what an informed group of fans would do if they could make the call on Zito. I can’t help myself: I’m driving by the wreck very, very slowly.
I also get some sick
pleasure in watching Zito pitch now. I feel really bad about enjoying it. I probably wouldn’t if he hadn’t signed with a team like the Giants, but I can’t help myself.
I feel like the kid on the Simpsons pointing at Brian Sabean and going, “Ha HA!”
by Tyler Bleszinski on Jun 18, 2008 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions
+1
In fact, had he signed anywhere other than the giants, NY/Boston or Anaheim, I’d feel really bad for him, but the giants, for $$$? Nope.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
Agreed
I was a huge Zito fan for forever. He was one of my favorite pitchers, but once you sign with those teams, I tend to wish the worst upon you.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Jun 18, 2008 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
That's how I feel about big-time bloggers.
Was Black Snake Moan a comedy or a drama?
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jun 18, 2008 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions
here's the thing Blez,
Zito was bound to make a goat out of someone. Everyone on AN knew he wasn’t an ACE in the true sense of the word. If Sabean hadn’t done the deal, another GM would have pulled the trigger, prob not to the tune of 7yrs /$126m tho.
And let’s face it, Zito had the ‘resume’ working in his favor to command the offseason $$$. I just didn’t think a GM out there would pull a Tom Hicks and throw ARod money his way overpaying a pitcher who was on the decline for the last several seasons in Oakland.
by sf drift king on Jun 19, 2008 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Make him quit his aspiring music career for a while.........
He’s practicing with his band or just his guitar than with his team and coaches. He needs to focus on the one thing that pays the bills right now, and know that his music will be there when he retires. I believe this was the cause of his downfall.
"the one thing that pays the bills right now"
You mean, simply remaining alive to the end of his contract?
How ‘bout "jackass"? Can I still say "jackass"? @('.')@
We should all be as lucky...
I would sign for half of what he is making this year alone and some would say do at least as bad
I'm wondering if Bochy is getting "tired of his act"
He pinch hit for Zito in the 2nd inning (it was 5-0) when the Giants didn’t have some great rally going. Usually you don’t lift a guy after just 2 IP if he isn’t knocked out – but Zito finished the inning. I could understand it if the Giants had loaded the bases with nobody out and figured it was their best chance to get back in the game. But the way it unfolded today seemed a bit odd.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It didn't really seem that odd
I was out there and it’s hard to describe how terrible z looked – 3-2 pitch over a guy’s head, walking the pitcher after he got ahead of him, 2 out of 3 outs in the 2nd on hard liners. I do think bochy must be sick of it, not in a “z is being a bad guy” sense, just that it’s painful for both of them and totally unfair to the team to run him out there. I can’t imagine any way anyone could justify another start for the guy – i’m seeing a long stay on the dl and working it out in arizona.
by Hot Cup Joe on Jun 18, 2008 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions
On the DL with what, "suck"?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Head case
I suspect Zito’s putting too much pressure on himself, and it has him freaked out. Nobody should get as big a contract as he received. I suspect in his heart of hearts he knows he’s not worth that amount, so to relieve the internal pressure and mounting guilt, he should give a large part of that contract amount back to the Giants, and then take the rest of the year off to recondition, and finish off the season in the minors.
I don't know why people suggest a player gives a part of his contract back...
...when he sucks. Nobody does it.
It’s not like a team should give a player extra money if he plays better than they expect while playing out his contract. That’s where bonuses are factored in.
When you sign a player to an expensive, lengthy contract you run the risk of it not paying off.
Besides, the player’s association would pitch a fit if a player actually tried to give any money back.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
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Bruce Bochte did it
As a child, I wrote him a letter commending him and he wrote back. Class act.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Must have went to the wrong address. The post office is clueless.
Was Black Snake Moan a comedy or a drama?
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jun 18, 2008 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn't mind it if it went both ways
you play well above your paygrade, gee, maybe you should get a bonus for that year. You suck well under your paygrade, pay it back for that year. Seems fair to me, especially at their salaries. Though one without the other doesn’t work. Either way it ain’t happening.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
Why should he?
The Giants made a ridiculous offer to him, I can’t blame Zito for saying, “Sweet!”
This is a GM 102 lesson for Sabean. GM 101 was “AJ, Nathan, and Why Your Trades Suck”. Why should Zito pay for the Giants’ foolishness?
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
+1
the MLBPA would have a fit! God forbid Zito set a precedent like that. Fans would start demanding salary paybacks every time a blue-chip player had a slow year! Still, probably the best way for him to go…
Relax. Alright, don't try to strike everybody out. Strike outs are boring, besides that, they're facist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
-- Crash Davis, from Bull Durham
It isn't just the MLBPA
that would pitch a fit. The owners would also pitch a fit. Players have actually tried to refund their salaries before. And been turned turned by their owners. Why? Because doing so sets a precedent that the contract might not be binding.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Zito would pitch a fit,
and the count would be 1-0.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Nobody should get as big a contract as he received
I agree. He should take all that money and give it to someone who does deserve it—like a nurse.
Of course, then that nurse would end up strangling patients in the ICU over her guilt at taking the money from Zito. She should give it to a schoolteacher.
Who would end up teaching kids that mathematics doesn’t work and that reading comprehension is a useless so-called “skill” over her guilt at taking the money from the nurse. She should give it to a firefighter.
Who would turn into an arsonist out of guilt. He should give it to a librarian.
Who would marry the firefighter and go on a multistate book-burning spree. They should give it to the Dalai Lama.
Who would promptly marry Paris Hilton … and go on a multistate book-burning spree. They should give it to the survivors of some natural disaster.
Who would all get together, pool their money, and follow their collective dream of buying a major-league baseball team. And then they’d sign Barry Zito.
Really, they should just give the money to me. After all, what harm can I really do?
How ‘bout "jackass"? Can I still say "jackass"? @('.')@
qotm
Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.
If Zito was a race horse or dog he would have been
taken out back and put down by now but as it is maybe he should look into becoming a RH pitcher or if that dont work maybe he could hook up with the crowd that fixed the 6 million dollar man. Then every time he piched there would be that cool slow mo affect with that cool sound.
Dont get me wrong
I hate to see him struggle and a fan of him even to this day but idk if there is much he can do short of a mircle along with what Colorado Fan was talking about up top.
Giants should sign Rick Peterson
The Mets let him go when they fired Randolph. Sink a little more bad money down the hole for the small chance he could fix Zito (not in the veterinarian sense). As a side note, i have fond Zito memories, think it’s an appropriate AN post, and wish the poor rich guy well.
Hi ho.
At least in San Francisco he'd have a reason to wear the jacket all the time.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
jamesvenes.com - Blog
Agreed.
It can’t hurt. Let Zito work with Rick, see if they can do anything about the situation.
I have warm fuzzy Zito memories, and it hurts to see him pitch the Giants—but it hurts more to see him struggle when I can still remember all the amazing days in the Coliseum watching him torture rookies with the curve.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
I dont think its all that complex.
Over the last 5 6 years, Zito has thrown substantially more pitches than any other pitcher in baseball. Wasn’t it HBT or BBP that tracked Pitcher Abuse Points? The guys is a poster child for over use anf fatigue, suffered at the hands of your friends, the Oakland A’s. He is tired and the images of him throwing the HBT article he looks like a guy with great mechanics trying to tinker inside those mechanics to muscle the ball because his arm is beat to shit. He is exhausted, and his arm is tired. NO Rick peterson, or trip to the minors is going to correct that. I think the A’s fried his arm.
by mikedaviswhereareyou on Jun 19, 2008 12:10 AM PDT reply actions
So it's the
Oakland A’s fault that the Giants have an unproductive pitcher? Interesting. Even if that were true, I don’t think any of Oakland’s management held a gun to Brian Sabean’s head forcing him to offer that kind of contract to Zito. Regardless of how you spin the situation, it is the Giants’ fault that they are in this mess.
"So there I am, getting it on with this perfect female body, but with the head of Abraham Lincoln. With the hat and the beard, everything." -Tony (Dazed and Confused)
by OrlandoAsFan on Jun 19, 2008 6:21 AM PDT up reply actions
So Zito lead the league in
Pitcher Abuse Points, and now he’s getting PAP smeared?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
This may be my ignorant opinion,
but if i was the gm of any team, I think i would have been doing some major scouting on this guy if i was even remotely considering offering him that kind of contract. The warning signs were there, so that tells me one of three things. 1) They didn’t bother to scout the guy 2) They scouted him and chose to offer him the huge contract anyway, or 3) they are just completely incompetent. It really doesn’t matter which one of those actions is correct, it still the Giants’ fault. Not the A’s.
"So there I am, getting it on with this perfect female body, but with the head of Abraham Lincoln. With the hat and the beard, everything." -Tony (Dazed and Confused)
by OrlandoAsFan on Jun 19, 2008 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Zito's self confidence has certainly taken a beating....
which is no doubt contributing to his woes. To keep running him out there is by far the worse thing the Giants could do. If the Giants want any return at all on what they have invested in Zito they best stop putting the guy on the field. Their not going anywhere this year anyway, so what’s the point in letting the carnage accumulate?
There is something wrong with Zito. There can be little doubt about that. Exactly what’s wrong is what the Giants should be trying to find out. If it’s physical, running him out there for start after start is only going to exacerbate the problem. The same is true if it’s mental. I think they should put him on the 60 day DL and hire Petersen to work with him without the pressures of being set up to fail on a national stage. Let him get his mind and body right and see how he does in September.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
I think the Giants should sign Mackey Sasser
to be Zito’s personal catcher. Watch him walk ball three back to the mound!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Texas
Remember that Texas was the runner up in the Zito sweepstakes? At the time of the Giants signing I was relieved that Zito was not going to a division rival. Now I awe at the thought of how much worse his numbers would be were he pitching in Texas rather than in a pitcher friendly park in the NL.
I have very found memories of Zito as an Athletic but I didn’t think that he should have been resigned after 06 and is an example of paying for past performance. His secondary numbers have been declining for years, consistantly since 02, and even sabrametric neophites could have predicted a decline in his production. To this degree, I don’t know.
At this point I just tease the hell out of the many Giants fans that I am related to about it.
"First Zito and now DJ? The Giants are like A's landfil." - a paraphrase of Since72.
Also, Todd Linden has a .231 lifetime average and a 66 career OPS+, chill Linden fans.
by Athletics fan and runner on Jun 19, 2008 8:29 AM PDT reply actions
Will the Giants allow him to lose 20 games?...
...or will they come up with some reason to shut him down at 18 or 19 losses?
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Zito
I don’t make a habit of feeling bad for multi-millionaires, but I do feel sympathy for Zito. This isn’t a guy who trashed Oakland on his way out, and signed with the Yankees so he could win world championships and go to the Hall of Fame. (I will take a bit of twisted satisfaction if Giambi’s contract expires without the Yankees winning any titles with him.) Zito has always seemed like a decent guy who does his best.
It’s not that he’s not earning the money the Giants are paying. We all knew that was a stupid contract at the time because of Zito’s declining performance. But even I didn’t expect him to fall apart completely. It’s downright depressing to watch him.
At the moment, Zito isn’t a big league pitcher, and every start seems to make it worse. He has no velocity for whatever reason and no command. The transformation to Jamie Moyer won’t come easy, if it ever happens at all.
I don’t really see how anyone is served by the Giants continuing to toss Zito out there at this point.
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