Tyson Ross Mechanics

by DyeLongJustice on Jun 15, 2008 1:06 PM PDT

So after reading Driveline Mechanics' critique of Duke's mechanics a few days ago, I perused on over to his website where, to my dismay, I found this article on Tyson Ross. The basic gist of the small article is that Ross is over-abducting/hyperextending his shoulders (inverted W), similar to what Mark Prior does (or at least did when he was actually pitching). As the article states, this will cause "impingement syndrome", which is basically caused by shoulder tendinitis of the supraspinatus or bursitis in the shoulder as a result of rubbing in the subacromial space.

This flaw in mechanics significantly worries me. As well, the problem is three-fold, as not only can it cause impingement syndrome, but it can also cause timing problems and increased stress to the Ulnar Collateral Ligament (again, from the article). I am not sure if Beane takes into account mechanics when drafting pitchers (and granted flaws in mechanics don't always bare out in real life like one might think), but this flaw may derail Ross sooner rather than later, and for such a high pick this scares me. In his favor are that he has pretty good statistics playing with Cal, but they are certainly not dominating statistics. I'm hoping that the A's did not draft him based on his body, because as we have seen with numerous pitchers (T. Hudson, R. Oswalt, and T. Lincecum) it's not about how big you are (how much force you can generate), but how good you are at transferring energy from your lower torso to your upper torso. Hopefully Ross makes Beane look like his usually intelligent self, but I just don't like picking Ross quite this high.

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Mechanics

I watched a few seconds of Ross throwing in the A’s bullpen after he was signed and concluded that he pitches all wrong. I don’t know all the technical jargon, but he hardly seems to use his legs at all.

I don’t think the A’s are unaware of his mechanical issues. After all, lowly bloggers like us know about them. I assume they simply plan to teach him to do things differently. It remains to be seen whether that will work.

by bear88 on Jun 15, 2008 1:32 PM PDT reply actions

Rich Harden also hardly uses his legs at all

His mechanics are far cleaner than Ross’s, buuuuut …

If we can’t fix the stupid, can we at least beat them senseless? @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jun 15, 2008 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions

no offense

but if he is that good without using his legs, just wait till they figure something out for him

"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006

by flipgatey3 on Jun 15, 2008 4:19 PM PDT reply actions

I was under the impression

that the A’s more or less viewed him as a “project” player, i.e. someone who you can mold into a high-quality prospect. Certainly they’ve had success with this sort of player recently (the resurgences of Eveland and Craig Italiano, for instance).

The A’s have certainly been criticized in the past for taking players who were overly “safe,” so Ross is a step in the other direction as a high-risk, high-reward pick. The team probably figured that there were enough quality pitching prospects in the organization that the success or failure of one guy wasn’t going to make or break the team. I like the pick, because what the team needs now isn’t strength in numbers (which they have) but an elite #1 starter to replace Rich Harden when he is inevitably injured, traded or leaves as a free agent.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jun 15, 2008 4:27 PM PDT reply actions

fair enough fair enough

u make valid points…i’m just hoping the a’s can get his “mark prior” mechanics changed into something a little less stressful to the body….i’d hate to see the second coming of mark prior

We've never been in that position. We wouldn't know how to operate, I mean, do we get him a corsage?-Billy Beane on signing a high profile FA

by DyeLongJustice on Jun 15, 2008 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions

even if you get Mark Prior's career

you’ve won with your draft pick, especially as a second rounder.

Or to put it another way, some guys pitch better from ages 20-25 then they will subsequently in their careers, often due to injury.

One thing is certain, the A;s have scouted the heck out of Ross and know what they think they have. We’ll see how right they are.

by jakarta on Jun 15, 2008 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions

so you're saying that

you’d rather have nine starts of say, harden, versus 30 starts of say, blanton?...i mean sure those nine starts will be sizzling, but then for the next 20 starts, you might be filling that with something like sarloos, who isn’t terrible, but he’s just so so…i agree that maybe it is good to go for the homer pick, but i don’t agree that you’ve won if your pick only lasts a few years in the majors…that is unless you’ve traded him off before he fell apart

We've never been in that position. We wouldn't know how to operate, I mean, do we get him a corsage?-Billy Beane on signing a high profile FA

by DyeLongJustice on Jun 15, 2008 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions

plus

i can’t handle getting my heart broken by seeing an awesome pitcher break down every time he goes out…its hard enough to watch harden, i wouldn’t want to have to do it to myself anymore

We've never been in that position. We wouldn't know how to operate, I mean, do we get him a corsage?-Billy Beane on signing a high profile FA

by DyeLongJustice on Jun 15, 2008 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions

I'm just saying

from 2002-2005, Prior started 19 games, 30 games, 21 games, and 27 games with ERA+ of 122, 178, 109, 120. His 2003 alone was probably worth15-20 $million. Forget Prior after 2005, assume he never played again, he already gave you incredible value.

Put it another way, in terms of evaluating success in the draft, it only matters what somebody does when they are cheap and club controlled, after that they’re getting paid like free agents.

And if your pick after the first round produces a player who is better than average for any half-season in the bigs, you’ve won.

by jakarta on Jun 15, 2008 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions

Surely you don't think

that one lone blogger would have discovered a fatal flaw that all the A’s scouts and crosscheckers and what have you, spending countless hours analyzing these players in the weeks and months leading up to the draft, somehow failed to notice or take into consideration? Especially when that odd delivery of his is the very first thing everyone notices about him upon seeing him pitch?

You can take it as 100% certain that the A’s were fully aware of his mechanics. What they plan to do about it, I have no idea. It seems highly likely that his delivery represents an increased level of risk (an unorthodox delivery is one type of risk, and trying to change someone’s mechanics is another type of risk), but that risk is also no doubt the reason he fell to our level in the draft. The A’s must have judged the upside potential to be worth the risk. You won’t get a first-rate talent at that point in the draft without there being some sort of issue, or the player wouldn’t be available at all.

Bottom line: the A’s have loads of guys who have a high-percentage chance of fuylfilling a relatively low-ceiling potential, and they’re very skilled at unearthing and developing those guys. They’re really not in much danger of running out of competent bodies to fill out the bottom two-thirds of their roster. What they are short of is stars, and stars are damn hard to come by either by trade or by draft. I applaud any efforts they may make to acquire players who have star-quality potential, even if there are significant obstacles to fulfilling that potential… This is largely the same point PT just made as I was composing this comment.

by Faust on Jun 15, 2008 4:49 PM PDT reply actions

How much do you want to be changing a pitcher's mechanics though?

From what I’ve seen and read Ross’ mechanics are terrible, but what’s to say we don’t completely mess him up by attempting to change them? Even minor tweaks can make a huge difference. That said obviously I’m going to defer to the professionals, if they think they can help Ross (assuming they plan on tweaking with his throwing motion) then who am I to argue?

by OldhamA on Jun 15, 2008 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions

Ross has said himself that he doesn't really have a pitching motion

he has a Short Stop Throwing Motion thats converted for pitching. That alone tells you enough that it would be wise to build a motion for him.

And the A’s do have success in rebuilding pitching mechanics (see: Craig Italiano)

Pessimism FTW! ... Wait what?

by Zonis on Jun 15, 2008 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions

Maybe he'll be the next Ziggy,

only he’ll still throw 95 MPH.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jun 15, 2008 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions

That's a terrifying prospect then.

by OldhamA on Jun 15, 2008 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions

Speaking of draftees

the A’s came to terms with Rashun Dixon and Petey Paramore recently. I figured Dixon (a two-sport athlete with a football scholarship offer) would be a tough sign, so that’s good news. It’ll be interesting to find out if it took an over-slot bonus to ink him.

6 of the top 10 picks are now signed.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jun 15, 2008 7:54 PM PDT reply actions

Isn't Dixon a pretty special athlete? I also read he was asking for $600k so we'll just have to

see what the A’s paid him.

by OldhamA on Jun 15, 2008 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions

I'm pretty excited...

That we got Dixon inked. Now if we can get the rest of 1-10 inked and Chris Berroa, Zac Elgie, and Brent Warren. I would be psyched. If we land one of the Maronde, Clement, or Messer I think my head would explode.

by AthleticsReign on Jun 15, 2008 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions

Argh. Even I do it.

Six of Oakland’s top 10 picks are now signed.

It’s like a semantic disease.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jun 15, 2008 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions

And now I realize I just can't read

Ignore this post and the last one…

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jun 15, 2008 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions

Tyson Ross' mechanics must be pretty good,

because his car has been running beautifully for over 200,000 miles.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jun 15, 2008 8:09 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs

except for that whole injury thing earlier this year

Pessimism FTW! ... Wait what?

by Zonis on Jun 15, 2008 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions

Heres something of note

This is part of an interview with A’s scouting directer Eric Kubota at scout.com.

OC: Do you think the team will have to remake his throwing motion, or are you comfortable with how he throws now?

EK: I think he throws the way that he throws, and it works for him. I know that right out of the box, we aren’t going to touch him.

by AthleticsReign on Jun 15, 2008 11:07 PM PDT reply actions

Eh

OK.

You know, it’s good and all to have your own people whose opinion you trust, but when everyone else on the planet is saying a guy’s mechanics are catastrophically bad…

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jun 15, 2008 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions

...

then you don’t need to add fuel to the fire by speaking about it to the media. Let him get his feet wet this summer, then to instructs and the minor league complex, do your work there and see where it goes.

by jakarta on Jun 15, 2008 11:50 PM PDT up reply actions

re

Not everyone on the planet thinks his mechanics are catastrophically bad (at least waist up). There’s a line of thought that the inverted W is what allows many pitchers to be successful. The extra tension and late rotation may be a big part of why a guy like Ross throws 95 instead of 85.

These mechanics articles are fascinating, but incredibly speculative. It’s going to be years and a hell of a lot more research before we see if the the hypotheses are actually correct. Personally not going to put much stock in them yet.

by 31Boots on Jun 16, 2008 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions

WTF, really?

well maybe it’s for the best, altering his mechanics could really screw him up after he blows out his arm and we try to move him back to SS in a few years…

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jun 16, 2008 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions

see jakarta's post above for an application of the xbhaskarx theorem

If we can’t fix the stupid, can we at least beat them senseless? @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jun 16, 2008 7:21 AM PDT up reply actions

Hmm, I wonder if the key phrase there

might not be “right out of the box.” There’s a lot of wiggle room there.

After all, 1) he’s been “throwing the way he throws” for some time now, and doesn’t look like he’s in imminent danger if they wait a while before stepping in; and 2) tinkering with a valuable arm is risky. So maybe they take longer to evaluate what they’ve got and where they want to go before stepping in.

I’m just guessing here. But it doesn’t seem all that likely that they wind up leaving him with a motion no one else uses. Of course, a unique motion works for Tim Lincecum (and how!) but his motion, while unusual, is at least clearly a pitching motion.

by Faust on Jun 16, 2008 2:53 AM PDT up reply actions

Lincecum also has pretty good mechanics, albeit a little unorthodox looking.

by mikev on Jun 16, 2008 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions

go check out his stats at Cal

he had a great career at Cal, obviously they saw something they liked alot in him.
yes, his motion is not conventional. but look at chad bradford or tim lincecum. they are making a case that you can suceed at the highest lvl with a unconventional motion

by Wreckonized on Jun 16, 2008 3:04 PM PDT reply actions

I dont think we're debating

unorthodox deliveries, because will be the first one to agree with you that unorthodox deliveries can work quite well (see: Nomo, Hideo). I think what I’m at least trying to say is that his abnormal delivery will possibly (probably?) cause injuries later down the road.

We've never been in that position. We wouldn't know how to operate, I mean, do we get him a corsage?-Billy Beane on signing a high profile FA

by DyeLongJustice on Jun 16, 2008 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions