Smith and Eveland: A Comparative Look
When Rich Harden returns to the rotation on May 11th, for something between one pitch and the rest of the season, he will likely bump either Greg Smith or Dana Eveland from the rotation - and it is conceivable that at some point this season one of them could be marked for a stint in AAA.
But while it was Eveland, not Smith, who made the team out of spring training, and while overall Eveland has pitched pretty well, there are a number of reasons why I favor leaving Smith in the rotation and bumping Eveland into the "DiNardo role" (formerly known as the "Saarloos role" - which is long reliever, 6th starter, next guy sent to AAA, guy waiting for Harden to break so he can rejoin the rotation).
Going "inside the numbers," Smith has an edge that is actually substantial, in that Smith has allowed as many as 3 ER in only one of his six starts - and that was when he gave up a 3-run bomb in the first inning only to blank the Royals in the 2nd-5th innings - while Eveland has given up 3 ER or more in three of his seven starts. Another important difference: Smith has gone 6 innings or more in five of his six starts, while Eveland has failed to do so in four of his six starts - the last four prior to last night.
Going "outside the numbers," the differences between Smith and Eveland appear to be that Smith is already a "pitcher" - meaning he has control, command, poise, maturity, and a clear plan he can execute - while Eveland is still very much a "thrower" - meaning he has good stuff but has less of an idea of what he wants to do or how to do it efficiently or consistently.
As a result, Smith really has nothing to "work on" in the bullpen or minors, while Eveland might benefit from the extra bullpen work a long reliever can get, or from a stint in AAA. If one of them had to be optioned to AAA at some point, I would actually favor sending Eveland down even though it would use up an option year (#2), which it wouldn't with Smith (he uses up option #1 this year no matter what). Why? Because the team will still have an option on Eveland in 2009, and frankly if by 2010 he is scuffling enough that the A's want to send him down to the minors, that means he will have fallen far enough down on the A's "depth chart," probably behind Gio Gonzalez, Trevor Cahill, James Simmons, and Brett Anderson, and he will just be "the guy from the Haren trade who didn't pan out." By 2010, he needs to stick or move on.
Finally, while a sample of 6-7 starts each is small, the sample is larger than 6-7 starts. In April and May, Smith has pitched exactly as he did in the Cactus League and in his one start for Sacramento: throwing strikes, keeping hitters off balance, getting outs. In April and May, Eveland has also pitched exactly as he did in the Cactus League: Showing a good arm, putting a lot of guys on base, throwing a lot of pitches, getting out of more jams than not, and being inconsistent but promising.
Conclusion: Don't let the radar gun fool you. Eveland still has a lot to work on, while Smith just needs a lot of work - as in, every 5th day in the major leagues.
1 recs |
232 comments
Comments
I'd probably put Eveland in the pen...
He doesn’t have anything left to prove in the minors. He’s pitched well enough to have a spot in ANY team’s rotation. Maybe they could even work something out where there’s some type of 6-man rotation without having get skip Blanton (even though Blanton’s been the worst pitcher this year).
Let’s face it… Harden probably won’t make his start. If he does, he’ll get hurt 3 starts down the road.
Duke deserves a chance in the rotation but he’s as brittle as… we… peanut brittle. So, my feeling is that both Smith and Eveland will basically both get 25 starts this year, which is probably about perfect for rookies.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
by brenarlo on May 6, 2008 7:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No love for Blanton?
I guess worst is relative. He’s pitching deeper into the game than anybody else on the team. I don’t have the stats in front of me, but it seems like he’s given up the majority of his runs in the seventh inning. A quicker hook from Geren and he’s probably among the league leaders in ERA. Not that ERA’s the greatest. He gives up a lot of hits, but doesn’t walk many.
Chiba Lotte lost simultaneously in the fighter plane of the Japanese ham.
by JediLeroy on May 6, 2008 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm looking into this..
not quite what I thought, but still interesting. Results to follow.
Chiba Lotte lost simultaneously in the fighter plane of the Japanese ham.
by JediLeroy on May 6, 2008 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His Ks have plummeted this year from low to dangerously low
There really aren’t any pitchers in the majors who succeed with his current K-rate unless they get a ton of GBs, which Blanton doesn’t. It’ll improve somewhat, but it’s not a good sign.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 6, 2008 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Worst" being relative, of course.
Many teams, even good teams, would love to have a “worst” pitcher perform like Blanton.
Some read stats. Fans actually watch the games.
by UncleLeo on May 6, 2008 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bad typing...
get = to
we = well
Geez!
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
by brenarlo on May 6, 2008 7:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Say wut pilgrim??????
Harden = fools gold. Second coming of Mark Fidrych.
ANY QUESTIONS???
by KennySeagle on May 6, 2008 7:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A long reliever probably won't get much work in the A's pen
as evidenced by DiNardo, Saarloos, and Braden. I’d send Eveland down to keep him fresh for his inevitable return to the rotation.
by boilerdan on May 6, 2008 7:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree
Whoever ends up getting bumped out of the rotation needs to head down to AAA and remain on-turn as a starter. They’ll be back at some point during the year. The Gaudin/Duke/Harden part of the rotation is too fragile for me not to believe that our “6th man” won’t be needed again.
by LoveDemAs on May 6, 2008 7:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Finally
Got to watch the A’s game here in DC thanks to Baltimore going for the visit. I loved what I saw out of Eveland. Hitters were having a tough time getting solid contact and they never seemed to get much lift. He got some timely double plays and played some solid defense himself.
I figure he’s the candidate for demotion if it had to be a 5 man rotation, but I really think he’s developing well. I wouldn’t want him to go to long relief and would rather see him continue to work out at Sacramento on a regular schedule. I’d want him to keep the mindset of a starter.
I’ve got to say that Smith and Eveland look like they could be long term members of the A’s rotation for years to come as Beane may have struck again.
It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
by ru155 on May 6, 2008 8:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Get mlb.tv
right now. You will not regret it. And get premium. It’s worth it.
It's Rhodes Scholar Night at the Coliseum tonight.
by Scottbass on May 7, 2008 12:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
absolutely
it’s amazing
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
by flipgatey3 on May 7, 2008 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Had it last season = amazing
I needed to wait until I picked up my Tax Refund check so I’d have the extra cash to get it. It’s tough paying off student loans, and having to live in an expensive city like DC where they can pay you peanuts because of all the idealistic kids that jump at the chance to work on policy.
It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
by ru155 on May 7, 2008 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blez mentions that Eveland will burn up option #2 if sent down
witty remark
by dtownmbrown on May 6, 2008 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's Nico...
and he’s wrong. This would be Eveland’s final option year if they send him down.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not so sure it's so clear cut.
Both are pitching really well.
The following stats are K/G, BB/G, HR/G, infield flies per fly ball, groundball percentage
Pitcher A: 6.7 4.0 0.22 23.7% 49.2% Pitcher B: 7.8 3.3 1.01 17.8% 37.5%
Pitcher B strikes out more guys and walks fewer, but Pitcher A induces more weak weak contact in the form of popups and groundouts. Can you guess who is who? And more importantly, does the choice seem quite as clear?
This is a good problem to have, as none of our five pitchers are very good demotion/bullpen candidates.
stat-addled alien overlord
by salb918 on May 6, 2008 8:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how much difference it makes
that we have a pretty drastic difference between IF and OF defense, which cuts in favor of Eveland.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 6, 2008 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
B is Gerg, A is Eveland
I’ve noticed that Eveland gets a ton of weak contact off his pitches. He also tends to get wild from time to time.
Prince: This bores me. Is anyone up for a game of basketball?
by baseb3383 on May 6, 2008 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A fair arguement Nico
But Eveland is on my fantasy team, therefore demoting him hurts me.
I don’t want to be hurt.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on May 6, 2008 8:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No objectively right answer, but I think Eveland stays
Looking at the two players minor league careers, you see many similarities. Eveland has thrown 413.2 innings, walked 127, struck out 405, with a 2.61 ERA and 1.17 WHIP. Smith has thrown 358.1 innings, walked 105, struck out 309, with a 3.27 ERA and 1.19 WHIP. Eveland has a better strikeout percentage, but other than that the numbers are very similar. Both players are 25. Statistically, there is nothing that jumps out to pick one over the other.
However, there are two reasons why I think Eveland stays in the rotation if it is a choice of him or Smith being demoted. First, Eveland has a bit more stuff than Smith, and therefore has more potential to improve and adjust as hitters do. Smith is always going to be a live-on-the-edge type of pitcher that is going to get shelled if he gets the ball up or misses corners. To his credit, he has pitched great in the majors so far. To Eveland’s credit, he has pitched well also and with refinement can improve. Smith is very unlikely to improve, and hitters are going to adjust.
The second reason I think Eveland stays is mental. He has already been in the majors twice and has been demoted, and has been labeled a failed prospect. Demoting him to the minors is likely to hurt his confidence, and that is something that has to be considered in making these types of decisions. Smith can go to the minors with his head held high, secure in the knowledge that he has done well and that the fragile players ahead of him will inevitably lead to future opportunities.
by BlameChannel53 on May 6, 2008 8:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Excellent point on the mental issue
Strange to be talking about mental issues and not be referring to myself. Eveland has nothing left to prove in the minors, everyone knows it. To demote inspite of having success can only hurt his development. Smith came up to cover for an injured pitcher, he knew his time in Oakland was short. He’s certainly impressed in his time here but the reality is he came as a fill-in.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on May 6, 2008 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I sort of disagree with mental analysis like this...
If he is fragile enough that it could shatter him to be sent to the minors, I don’t want him sniffing a pennant race. That said, I don’t really think it will hurt Eveland’s confidence. Even though he seems to lose his command a bit when getting hit, I don’t think its a confidence issue; confidence seems to be his strength.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Players are not robots
Confidence is a key component of athletic success, and it woud be silly for a team to disregard mental issues. Toronto is a great example of a team that consistently mindfucks its prospects, and then wonders why they don’t develop.
by BlameChannel53 on May 6, 2008 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not a question of being fragile
Eveland was pitched nervous in his big league debut. Last year he was coming off an injury to his hand that sidelined him for a large chunk of time. Eveland was/is at a point where he needs to be facing big league hitters, he needs to prove that he can get big league hitters out.
He’s done that. He’s proven to himself and to his team that he can pitch in the bigs. Now you want to yank the carpet from undernearth him by demoting him?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on May 6, 2008 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good points
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 6, 2008 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's time to package Blanton and Street for the best bat Billy can muster
I would really like to see them lockup Street though, I really feel he has staying power despite the gamethread criticisms. But from a purely business/talent perspective, they can probably get a lot of good stuff for Blanton/Street, and they seem to have depth to be able to afford to move those guys.
As far as who stays and who goes now, I think Smith has just slightly outpitched Eveland, and also think Eveland could be a great setup man a la Duke when Duke was crowded out of the rotation, so he could pitch here as a setup man if people are afraid of burning his options, or he could go to Sac and continue to start.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 8:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Brewers Might be the Place
We couldn’t get Fielder or Braun, but what about Corey Hart and/or their best prospect?? Matt Laporta—OF—is the guy, I believe. They desperately need a closer and their rotation is now in tatters after losing Gallardo. I’m not saying trade them both—unless a lot is coming back. But there is some urgency with that team—they probably can’t sign both Fielder and Braun long-term, plus Braun has clear defensive liabilities, meaning their window might only be open for 2-3 more years.
by madmongoose on May 6, 2008 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forget about either Fielder or Braun.
Didn’t Beane ask for Weeks in exchange for Street during the offseason?
by mikev on May 6, 2008 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the way you think
Street for LaPorta makes a lot of sense for both teams.
by BlameChannel53 on May 6, 2008 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
...LaPorta has no position
Actually, you could say that about most of the Brewers team, but it’s particularly true of him.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the A's have had a below average offense for years
I don’t care about LaPorta’s position. The A’s don’t have a player in their system that can hit like him. La Porta can play left, 1B or DH. Barton, Carter, and Doolittle all have their good pints, but La Porta is better than any of them, and the A’s need to find a Scary Monster if they want to improve their offense.
by BlameChannel53 on May 6, 2008 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So sign Pat Burrell as a free agent, whatever
I don’t get the “scary monster” thing. Yeah, Prince Fielder hits a lot of home runs. And yet he’s marginally, if at all, better than Nick Swisher, because Swisher actually plays a real position well, instead of first base terribly.
I’d much rather get a Reed Brignac than a Matt LaPorta, especially given the inclination of the current farm system.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you like a shill for the temperance movement? Or maybe a PETA member tired of sausage racing?
Seriously, on what planet is Prince Fielder “marginally, if all, better” than Nick Swisher? I think somebody might have poisoned your wheaties this morning, Paul
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i realized i was unclear
on what planet is Fielder ONLY marginally…etc
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On planet Baseball Prospectus?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You take Baseball Prospectus, I'll take 1.000 OPS and 50 HR
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but...
Swisher has more magical powers than Fielder does!
I once saw him pickpocket a leprechaun from 30 feet away!
"You have to have a catcher or you'll have all passed balls."- Casey Stengel
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 6, 2008 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, you take 1.000 OPS and 50 HR,
and we’ll take reality and evidence.
Some things aren’t a matter of opinion.
stat-addled alien overlord
by salb918 on May 6, 2008 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The they play real baseball games on planet Baseball Prospectus?
I...drink...your...milkshake! I drink it up! - Daniel Plainview
by methodrampage on May 6, 2008 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It turns out that in real baseball games
you need “fielders” who can “catch” balls and create “outs.”
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's unreal how much you defend Cust, and in those threads concede he might be an .840 OPS guy
And then right here slam Corey Hart for being an 840 OPS guy (who can catch the ball), and try to suggest any amount of 1B defense can overcome a 150 pt OPS difference.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I defend Cust plenty, but the difference is
it wouldn’t make any sense at all to trade for Cust if it took what it would take to get Hart. Cust for Hart would be a great trade! Point is, he’s not a good fit as a trade target. Obviously, he’s good.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 6, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Precisely
As for the Swisher/Fielder thing, I see Swisher as a RF ideally who is 10 RAA as a fielder. Fielder is a 1B who is 10 runs below average. Add in a 5 run positional advantage for Swisher and that’s a 25 run difference.
25 runs is a lot…
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
50 - 22 = 28
28 homeruns is a lot…
I...drink...your...milkshake! I drink it up! - Daniel Plainview
by methodrampage on May 6, 2008 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, if you can't keep up with the conversation,
it’s better to excuse yourself than to say stupid things, okay?
stat-addled alien overlord
by salb918 on May 6, 2008 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Advice ignored.
I...drink...your...milkshake! I drink it up! - Daniel Plainview
by methodrampage on May 6, 2008 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand where you get 10 RAA
He’s 3 RAA in 189 games in his career in RF. He’s -3 in CF in 80 games. In LF he’s 9 in 93 games, so seems like LF is his best position…Also, I don’t understand the 5 run “positional” bonus. Isn’t a run a run in these types of stats? In 343 career games, Prince Fielder is -6 RAA.
Meanwhile Fielder was 50 RAA last year, Swisher was only 23.
And Fielder is only 22, and Vegan.
So if I misunderstand these stats, which I have a tendency to do, please tell me. But from my first glance, it seems like you are pulling numbers out of your ass.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
50 to 23 BRAA
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where are you getting your RAA from?
It’s not BPro, is it? Their fielding numbers are all wacky.
The positional bonus is to account for replacement level, I wrote about this a few months ago.
MGL’s UZR has Swisher at +20 and +14 runs per 150 games as a LF/RF from 03-07. It’s likely that he’s a true talent +10 at the corners. I don’t have numbers for Prince, but he’s got a terrible rep, and I’d be surprised if he’s not more than -5 as a first baseman.
stat-addled alien overlord
by salb918 on May 6, 2008 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the process of assembling a reply
Sal basically posted everything I was going to say anyway.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"These are needed so that an average fielding 1B is not valued the same as an average fielding SS. "
I still don’t understand how this is valuable when building a baseball team. Nick Swisher might be a better golfer, and a better football punter than Prince Fielder too, but the FRAA already takes scarcity of skill at a position into account when measuring, so I don’t understand. The Runs Measure everything. For example, an average shortstop and an average 1B have equal value to the teams winning chances, they both don’t allow, or prevent any more runs than average. A great corner OFer and a great 1B would have their value show up in the number of FRAAs. Even though they are both great, the OF might be at 10 and the 1B at 5. It’s built into the statistic! It’s like giving bonus runs to Swisher because he has a cool haircut or is a better golfer than Fielder.
I’ve never really understood that—I mean kudos for being able to play a more difficult defensive position, but average players are average players whether they are SS or 1B. The “bonus runs” show up when you compare great players, or compare bad players at their position.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Average 1Bs HIT BETTER
than average shortstops.
That’s why the adjustment is made. Positions which are easier to field are stocked with superior hitters because it’s easier to find them. Prince Fielder is competing against a tougher group of hitters at 1B than Swisher is in the outfield. Tougher by about 5 runs, in fact.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you using FRAA?
Firstly, the positional advantage has to do with the fact that Swisher plays OF. Fielder plays 1b. If Fielder tried to play OF, his defensive ratings would be much worse than if he played 1b. That’s the reason for the positional advantage that Swisher gets.
As for the D. I’m using 2 play by play metrics, RZR from THT, with the raw data from BIS, and Zone Rating, with the data from Stats. By Revised Zone Rating, he’s at a very solid 919, in CF. He hasn’t played enough innings to qualify, but if he did, he would be solidly in the middle of the qualified CFs in the AL. And he has also made a solid number of out of zone plays, 14. Guys in the AL with more who qualify, Adam Jones, BJ Upton, Torii Hunter. And it is not just RZR that has him holding his own in CF. By Zone Rating, Swisher has a 959 rating. Limiting the list to guys who have played more than 100 innings at CF, the only players in the AL with higher zone ratings are Carlos Gomez and Curtis Granderson. Swisher has played 140 innings, the regular CFs in the AL have played 200-250 innings so far.
In 2007, RZR had Swisher 9 runs above average in RF, zone rating had him 5 runs above average. Fielder was at 12 runs BELOW average and 7 runs BELOW average.
And using UZR for the years before 2007, Swisher typically average around 5-10 runs above average in the corners.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on May 6, 2008 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His last name is Fielder
Duh!
I...drink...your...milkshake! I drink it up! - Daniel Plainview
by methodrampage on May 6, 2008 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ironic, isn't it.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So he's not royalty, either?
Man, he got the short end of the “living up to his name” stick.
by mikev on May 6, 2008 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know about that, he's paid a king's ransom...
by OldhamA on May 6, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he does a mean cover
of “Let’s Go Crazy.”
"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL
by oblique on May 6, 2008 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just as an off-the-cuff calculation,
Last year, Prince was +4.5 as a hitter, -1 for position, so he was +3.5 before fielding.
Last year, Swish was +2.5 as a hitter, -5 for position (if you consider him a corner OF. That made him +2.0 before fielding.
Was there a 15 run difference in their defense last year? It wouldn’t surprise me if it were so. Swish and Prince were probably close as far as value is concerned. Of course, Prince has more room to grow, in both a positive and negative sense given his age and weight (respectively).
stat-addled alien overlord
by salb918 on May 6, 2008 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burrell is also one of the worst 3-4 defensive OFers in mlb
Not what we need.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 6, 2008 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And LaPorta wouldn't be?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LaPorta could at least play in the field and be better
the guys currently lined up for corner OF. Burrell is a DH, and with Cust and Barton/Carter/Doolittle we don’t need a DH. We especially don’t need to spend big money on a DH…
But I’d rather try to see if we can trade for a middle IFer than get LaPorta.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 6, 2008 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not so sure about that
laporta profiles a DH from what i understand…but if you think about it, him and braun in the same outfield would be scary (for the brewers)
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
by flipgatey3 on May 7, 2008 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah. I was just assuming that could play the field; don't know the first thing about his defense.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 7, 2008 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Package Blanton and Street for a bat?
Who the hell are you going to be asking for, David Wright?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, but Hart + prospects would be nice.
Or Weeks.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What on earth would the A's do with Hart?
All he would do is block a zillion corner OF prospects.
I can’t even remember what position Weeks plays anymore. (I use the term “plays” loosely.)
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
dude whatever
It’s Beane’s job to find what’s out there. It’s silly to speculate on who’s available and what asking prices are anyways. I’m not advocating making a stupid trade!
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait what?
It’s silly to speculate on who’s available and what asking prices are anyways
No, but Hart + prospects would be nice.
stat-addled alien overlord
by salb918 on May 6, 2008 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, i was silly to speculate.
mostly silly because it just induces other people to be silly, and before you know it you’ve devolved into “WHO THE HELL ARE YOU GOING TO ASK FOR, DAVID WRIGHT?” and then you are arguing about the quality of players on the freaking Brewers whose names have not been even remotely mention in trade rumors.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What on earth would the A's do with an .840 OPS corner outfielder?
really?
by mikev on May 6, 2008 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah exactly
insta-upgrade over Brown, but I’m not even going to get into player quality debate.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
.840 OPS is really not that impressive for a corner OF
Travis Buck hit better than that last year in an injury-riddled rookie season.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
840 is career
it was 892 in his 25 year old, first full season.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's why Buck was considered one of the better young OF prospects in baseball, wasn't it?
Hart would instantly be the best power hitter on the team not named Cust.
by mikev on May 6, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's still this guy named "Chavez" floating around
I hear he was pretty good back in the day.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Back in the day is not today
I...drink...your...milkshake! I drink it up! - Daniel Plainview
by methodrampage on May 6, 2008 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Think They Both Stay
The A’s 6 pieces of a rotation are the most fascinating collection of strengths balancing weaknesses I’ve ever seen at the major league level. Consider the following:
1) By all metrics, the two who have demonstrated the most skill at the big league level—by far—are Rich Harden and Justin Duchscherer. And yet those are the two with the biggest question marks—by far—as to their ability to pitch anywhere near a full season in the rotation. Or a half season, for that matter;
2) Of the 6, the two who have the lowest demonstrated skill level- with career ERA+ scores that are essentially league average—are Chad Gaudin and Joe Blanton. Yet they are the only two who have actually thrown about 200 IP in a season or more;
3) And the two lefties—for now—both appear to be deserving of a continued spot in the rotation—Smith has clearly better numbers but also one fewer start.
Slusser tipped this off already today—if Harden is successful on Sunday or whenever his next big league start occurs, it is probably likelier that Gaudin or Duchscherer go to the pen than that either lefty leaves the rotation.
by madmongoose on May 6, 2008 8:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Gaudin to the pen might be the best move
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 6, 2008 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
poor Gaudin
same age as all those guys basically, but had to come up through the TB organization when they still had their heads up their ass.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
forgot to say I'm not pulling Gaudin from the rotation
He’s cut his BB rate close to in half. He looks very very good, and has a solid 200 inning season under his belt. He should get “immunity” this week. :-)
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's been very good,
but I bet the BBs will come back. He’s also the best suited for the bullpen of those guys, since he only has two pitches. Not an easy choice, though. Very difficult to rank any of of the 5 non-Harden starters against each other.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 6, 2008 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He throws a changeup to lefties
He’s actually increased the percentage of the time he throws it this year.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh, hadn't even noticed that
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 6, 2008 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why not Duke?
Duke has the least upside… he’s the oldest… and has proven he can’t stay healthy… and has proven he can pitch well out of the pen.
Gaudin is young enough to where he can show real improvement.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
by brenarlo on May 6, 2008 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As far as this season goes,
Duke has the most upside of anyone besides Harden. His upside as I see it is being a touch worse than he was in the pen in ‘05 and ‘06. None of the other four have that kind of upside. Smith is going to give up a lot of HRs, and probably a fair amount of walks since he needs to nibble. Eveland is going to walk a lot of guys. Gaudin will also walk a lot of guys and give up plenty of hard hits since he’s so reliant on his fastball, which he often doesn’t locate well.
He also “proved” he can’t stay healthy in the pen…
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 6, 2008 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
proving that you can pitch well out of the pen
is sort of an argument FOR starting, as opposed to staying in the pen. I’m not going to shaft a guy who has pitched (well) out of the pen for so long without complaining—Especially when at this point in his career it could cost him personally tons of money to be left in the bullpen never having gotten the chance to start. If all else were equal, loyalty would be the deciding factor. But all else isn’t equal, he also happens to be the best pitcher of the bunch.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hardin rotation double negative
owner of a lonely tarp
by oakath on May 6, 2008 9:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
harden
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
by flipgatey3 on May 7, 2008 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why can't Harden move to the BP?
He obviously has durability issues, so have him be a 7th or 8th inning guy.
Is it just because he said he wanted to be a SP so nobody suggests it? He should do anything to help this team win.
-Dan
by ironliver on May 6, 2008 9:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He should do anything to help this team win.
Agreed!
Like start as many games as he can. He’ll be injured regardless, and he’s our best pitcher by a lot, so they should maximize his value as long as he can pitch, which means starting.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 6, 2008 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure I agree with this
because from my standpoint, the only way to get something for Harden is to deceive other teams into thinking that he’s healthy—and the way to do that is to make it look like he is while not actually pitching him very much.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i still think you roll the dice that's he's healthy in case they make the playoffs
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it's clear at all
the moving him to the bullpen is the best thing for his trade value. Certainly it decreases his upside trade value. And is he really much more likely (if at all) to be healthy pitching an inning twice a week instead of starting. Does that notional health benefit make up for reducing his trade upside?
In the meantime, why not try to win ballgames? 2.5 game WC lead, baby!
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 6, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying it's a health benefit
I’m on record as saying it’s probably a health detriment on a per-inning basis.
What it is is potentially a way to defraud another team into THINKING he’s healthy.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By sticking him in the bullpen and having him not pitch?
If he pitches, then the injury risk is the same. If he sits in the bullpen rarely pitching, you really think teams are going to be confused? That is sort of a wacky plan….
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 6, 2008 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think GMs see what they want to see
and if the A’s are cagey about it and use Harden in a “Joba rules” type way without actually telling anyone that they’re doing it, they have a greater chance of deceiving other GMs about his health.
Of course, this “plan” only works if they’re not deceiving themselves, which seems like a stretch. It’s hard to tell whether the team’s public ostrich-head-in-the-sand stance is cynical or whether they actually believe their propaganda.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or the A's could try to win baseball games by starting their best starting pitcher
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Harden only pitches a game or two
before being DL’d again, then maybe when he comes back, try the “Joba Rules”/bullpen thing, but only if the club is out of contention when he comes back up.
As long as the club is in contention, I want to see Harden starting. I don’t care if he only starts five more games the whole season, because that’s highly likely going to translate to four or five victories.
The sample is getting larger and larger, showing us that this club doesn’t suck, and may be a legit contender, so we might as well roll with it until proven otherwise.
"You have to have a catcher or you'll have all passed balls."- Casey Stengel
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 6, 2008 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah because all GMs are dumbasses
“Hmmm….I wonder why Billy put his best starting pitcher in the bullpen. Oh wait I got it, I bet it’s because he’s healthy!”
Because you wouldn’t want a healthy Harden in the starting rotation.
I...drink...your...milkshake! I drink it up! - Daniel Plainview
by methodrampage on May 6, 2008 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The non-dumbass GMs obviously wouldn't bite...
Fortunately, SOME GMs are dumbasses.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moving Harden to the pen is like posting a neon above his head that reads
Do not want. Plz take. He no healthzee.
I...drink...your...milkshake! I drink it up! - Daniel Plainview
by methodrampage on May 6, 2008 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
*fires up photoshop*
damn. I can’t find a picture of Harden sitting in the bullpen anywhere
by mikev on May 6, 2008 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correction
Do not want. Plz take. He no healthzee.
I don’t think the A’s are going to get squat for him in any event. I just think the chances of getting something might be, I dunno, 20% instead of 10% if they put him in the bullpen.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair Enough
I think the chances of getting something might be better if he can magically string 5 starts together. If he moves to the pen, and it’s not like the A’s pen is struggling by any means, teams would probably know that something is up.
I...drink...your...milkshake! I drink it up! - Daniel Plainview
by methodrampage on May 6, 2008 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we're just trying to minimize a loss here,
and the chances are incredibly low of getting anything good in return on a trade, then let’s just run him into the ground. Make him pitch in pain.
What’s the worst thing that can happen? He can screw his arm up really badly, and finally get some damn surgery, and lose his velocity…
Maybe I’m dumb, but I think Harden’s a pitcher, not a thrower. He has a clue out there, and even if he only had a 91 MPH fastball instead of a 101, he can adapt and still be a pretty decent pitcher, albeit not a dominant one.
I think there are only so many starts left in his arm as is before he has to get surgery and change his approach, so we might as well milk them until the nipple runs dry, right?
"You have to have a catcher or you'll have all passed balls."- Casey Stengel
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 6, 2008 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All the better if he can't go
be great for someone else in a couple years!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on May 6, 2008 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seem to recall raising the scorched earth option a few weeks ago
and getting howled down by enraged Harden fans.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, but at least one dumbass GM
refuses to trade with Billy Beane.
formerly known as mdl
by iglew on May 6, 2008 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Harden as the 7th/8th inning setup guy
... because that maximizes my chances of winning $20.
And what did we do once we discovered a rift in the fourth dimension? We launched a monkey into it. @('.')@
by monkeyball on May 6, 2008 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Value can be maximized by either number of innings pitcher or leverage. I’m not sure which one would work out best at this point.
Keep in mind he’s likely to be on a pitch count even if he does start.
by MrIncognito on May 6, 2008 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The A's don't have a need for a fireballing RHP out of the pen right now
If Harden were a lefty, the decision would be a lot clearer I think. But Harden as a starter, even as a 5-inning starter, is probably a lot more valuable to the team, in terms of team needs.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"right now"
As I posted above, the A’s have 3 guys in their pen vying for the league lead in appearances. They will not hold up for the course of the season unless their usage pattern changes.
by MrIncognito on May 6, 2008 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know how many people have the same number of appearances as Casilla?
18.
Andrew Brown? Try 63.
Casilla has gone back-to-back three times this year; he’s pitched on 3 straight days once and that day the third appearance was for one batter.
Andrew Brown has gone back-to-back twice, and has yet to pitch 3 straight days.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know how many will keep up that pace out of the 63? One out of ten?
Attrition is really really high, and that’s precisely my point. The bullpen will not maintain this pace for a season. It would be completely historically unprecedented.
by MrIncognito on May 6, 2008 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK
Most of those 63 are not going to drop out because they blow their elbows out, they’re going to drop out because them getting so many appearances to this point is, essentially, a coincidence.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
why are pitchers in this era...
such a bunch of wussies? How many complete games did the 70’s A’s championship teams’ pitchers pitch? I’m sure Vida Blue will mention that during the upcoming celebration of that decade, but these guys are a little too delicate nowadays.
Will we get to see 70’s A’s throwback unis? I’m stoked for that! I want to see 10 complete games thrown by A’s starters in May. Three of ‘em by Harden.
Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb
by FoolshGame22 on May 7, 2008 2:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Why can't Harden move to the BP?"
I endorse this message. The assumption in the original post is that we’ll all be waiting for Harden to break down again, so prepare for that inevitability. Look at where the A’s are without Harden…one game out, second best record in the AL…I’m not sure I really want Harden back in the rotation.
by gregorymark on May 6, 2008 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice post Hatguy.
You don't win friends with salad.
by tresselfan on May 7, 2008 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe you're correct
about Eveland having 2 options remaining. I can’t see how that’s possible given the amount of service time he has, the number of times he’s gone from the minors to the majors, and so on.
If he only has one option left there’s no way you send him down for like 2 weeks.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 9:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Eveland's endurance
If Eveland can’t go more than 5 regularly, maybe we should just make him a handcuff for Duke, who seems be pretty much be a 5 inning guy himself. Have one starter and go 5, with the other planning to go 4. Saves the bullpen for a day as well, which will be important, as our starters really don’t seem to have the ability to get deep into games. Harden likely will not, as he’s coming back from injury—and by the time he would be “built up” to go longer, he’ll hurt himself again. Blanton clearly gasses after 7 or so. Giving everyone in the pen a day off on the Eveland/Duke days would make it less painful to go to the quality pitchers in the bullpen early in Blanton and Harden’s starts.
by rageon on May 6, 2008 9:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
it's very premature to call Duke a 5-inning guy
He’s been on pitch counts!
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly I don't think this "problem" will last over two weeks
before someone in the rotation goes down again…. That being said, i wouldn’t mind seeing the six man rotation because i am worried about the strain on the young arms by the end of the season, as well as the fragile piece of glass that is Rich Harden’s arm. A six man rotation might pay off by the end of the season…
Then again, it might not when we are out of contention because we chose not to use a healthy blanton and harden as much as possible
by demarius12 on May 6, 2008 9:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Eveland out of options?
According to Cots, Eveland was first added to the Brewers’ 40-man roster in July of 2005, which means his option years were 2005-2007. I think I’m interpreting this correctly from ESPN’s transaction primer.
One other observation picked up from Beyond the Boxscore:
“Smith’s BABIP (.226) and xBABIP (.292) don’t agree with each other nor does his 1.91 K/BB rate spell well for when those extra hits do come back to bite him. Eveland however looks quite legit, with a small margin between his BABIP and xBABIP and therefore a K/BB rate which shouldn’t kill him even if the small margin is made up.”
by Jere on May 6, 2008 9:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He didn't use an option in 2005, is the thing
He was called up and spent the rest of the year in the bigs.
So he has one left.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which means Smith didn't use an option this year
by WaddellCanseco on May 6, 2008 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Smith use an option when he was sent down during Spring Training?
He wasn’t a NRI, was he?
by mikev on May 6, 2008 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he was an nri
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 6, 2008 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correct; Smith has not used an option yet this year
However, using up his first option would be much less significant than using Eveland’s final option.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strange comments regarding Smith
Eveland’s K / BB rate is worse than Smith’s. So if Smith’s K / BB rate is a problem, then Eveland’s K / BB rate is a bigger problem. He’s judging their “legitness” merely with BABIP vs expected BABIP?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on May 6, 2008 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The grizzled old scout sitting on my shoulder says,
“Smith looks like Greg Maddux out there. He’s the smartest rookie I’ve seen since before I had to wear the adult diapers. Eveland still has a lot to learn, though. Yet, when roster crunch time happens, I think they should keep both in the bigs and demote Eveland to the pen, sending Braden down. If Harden stays healthy for more than five minutes, Billy can figure out what to do then.”
Then, he ashed his cigar on my shoulder, which startled me enough to drop him on the floor and step on him.
"You have to have a catcher or you'll have all passed balls."- Casey Stengel
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 6, 2008 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was not well phrased...
and I do question whether one can really tell what a pitcher’s expected BABIP is from only a handful of starts. Just because a guy dodges line drives for 6 starts doesn’t mean he has a unique skill at doing so.
I think he’s just saying Smith has more room to regress.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One thing with his BABIP analysis
is that he seems to forget / ignore is that flyball pitchers should have lower BABIPS.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on May 6, 2008 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hm
I’d presume his xBABIP is based somewhat on the batted ball types that the pitchers give up.
If not, it’s a flawed stat.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless he's using a different definition,
xBABIP is simply LD rate + 120.
Yup, from a post by Anderson on DRays Bay explaining xBABIP:
ake the LD%, turn it into an average (so 20% goes to .20) and add it to .12 in order to get the xBABIP. That would be a .320 xBABIP, which gives you a general idea of where the player’s BABIP should be. You can go through the standard deviation methods to get a closer scale on the range, but those are the basics, and from there you can find the hits +/- by simply doing:
xBABIPLine Drives (found on fangraphs page) – BABIPLine Drives
So, he just ignores flyball and ground ball rate.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on May 6, 2008 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It wouldn't make a huge difference
you might get r up to .47 instead of .43, but for a sample size like the one we’re dealing with, that’s not worth worrying about.
by MrIncognito on May 6, 2008 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There isn't a huge spread in abilitiy between any of our pitchers
Player FIP xFIP
Eveland 3.29 4.13
Blanton 3.44 4.32
Duke 3.51 2.78
Smith 3.87 3.98
Gaudin 4.05 4.21
There isn’t a big spread in performance here, but the edge goes to Eveland. First, Smith was the last to get called up, so when he goes down again it should be easier to tell him. Eveland also gets a higher ground ball % by a large margain (49% to 37.5%), which makes him much better suited to succeed with the current A’s defensive alignment.
There are dozens of minor differences to argue one way or the other, but if it’s my call I’m sticking with the GB% advantage.
by MrIncognito on May 6, 2008 10:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Synthesizing the arguements here
I would think it will have to be Smith that goes down. The mental side of things definitely could be a real issue for Eveland who, let us not forget, claimed that the Dbacks never gave him a good opportunity to succeed. We want him to continue to believe that the organization thinks he will succeed. This clearly wouldn’t be an issue for Smith who can go back to AAA and know another chance is coming. Gaudin and Duke could prove to be great trade assets if they can stay healthy and perform, whereas we def want to hang onto Smith for a while if he maintains and putting him back in the minors would facilitate nicely.
by ChadGod on May 6, 2008 10:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
How about putting Harden in the BP
If he stays healthy in the pen, move him back to the rotation and see what happens.
"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra
by Cheezombie on May 6, 2008 10:28 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would love to see the A’s try him as a multi-inning shutdown reliever. If we run into any high leverage innings in the 5th or 6th innings, we could use him for 3 or 4 innings at a time to finish off close games.
If there was ever a good opportunity for a team to try something innovative in dealing with oft-injured pitchers, this is it. We have a team that is noted for innovation, isn’t supposed to contend, and a $7 million option on a guy who is dominant but never healthy.
by MrIncognito on May 6, 2008 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good idea
he’ll be a 3 inning closer
"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra
by Cheezombie on May 6, 2008 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would make more sense if our strength
weren’t the depth of our short/middle relief. But Harden pitching 2-3 innings in relief would take those innings from Casilla, Brown, and Foulke – a slight upgrade but not the major upgrade it would be for most teams.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on May 6, 2008 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Foulke is a foam peanut.
He’s filler.
He’s expendable.
"You have to have a catcher or you'll have all passed balls."- Casey Stengel
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 6, 2008 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then get me some more foam peanuts,
because I think he still has something left in da tank.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on May 6, 2008 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s unlikely that Casilla, Brown, and Foulke remain healthy for the rest of the season. Casilla is on pace to appear in 79 games this season, and Brown is on pace for 70. Either number would have led the team last season by a comfortable margin, and been within a couple appearances of the league leader. Our bullpen has been one of the things that’s kept us competitive, and if we want it to stay that way we need to spread the work out a lot more.
by MrIncognito on May 6, 2008 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've said this before...
A reliever can appear in 91 games without ever pitching on consecutive days.
Just counting numbers of appearances is a really poor way of measuring bullpen fatigue.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No reliever in the history of the AL has ever appeared in 91 games
Mike Marshall appeared in 90… in 1979.
It’s insane to expect a pitcher to throw that often.
by MrIncognito on May 6, 2008 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I should have added that Brown’s velocity is down from early this season.
What do you use to measure fatigue?
by MrIncognito on May 6, 2008 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
See above
How do you measure fatigue? Well, there’s the old standby of “asking the pitcher if he’s tired…”
Obviously there are other signs like velo loss, and you can manage a guy’s appearances by limiting his appearances on consecutive days.
I haven’t noticed any decrease in Brown’s velocity, however.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Part of the high number of appearances
can be explained by the Japan trip and early days off, which allowed Foulke initially to appear in practically every game without being overused. His return should allow Geren to use Casilla and Brown more sparingly, so I think it will work itself out.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on May 6, 2008 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
allowed Foulke initially to appear in practically every game without being overused.
until he was injured…
You’re arguing like adding Harden wouldn’t significantly change the way the A’s approach the bullpen, too. There would be no need to allow a starter to struggle through a start if they had the option of brining in someone like Harden – if Gaudin can’t hit his spots or Blanton doesn’t have his good stuff that day, Harden can fill in most of the start. If the bullpen’s the best part of the team, we can use it more. Right now, we really don’t need help in the rotation either, so let’s just do the best thing for Harden – keep the pitch counts down, and maximize his leverage.
by MrIncognito on May 6, 2008 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Foulke's injury had nothing to do with use
as far as I can see. He had a stiff neck – if anything, you could wonder if the long flights played a part, but Foulke’s appearance rate, by day (not game) was ordinary.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on May 6, 2008 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not if
you trade Street and make Casilla the closer.
"The two of them deserve each other. One's a born liar, the other's convicted."
by SwampyD on May 6, 2008 11:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What if you didn't have a bullpen at all?
Or another way to look at it is everybody is a long reliever. If going over 7 innings is going to be a problem for most of the starters and teams are continually getting better at scouting and adjusting to starting pitchers (including watching video during the game) why not play your pitchers like a giant shell game.
Keep a solid group of 9-12 pitchers and rotate them every three +/- innings, every three +/- games. Everybody pitches more often but for less innings. Of the pitchers we have I think only Street and Embree wouldn’t be able to go three innings. And I don’t see how opposing managers/teams would be able to prepare/adjust. Pitch every inning like it’s the ninth.
What? too much drinking at work?
"Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told me that if I didn't take Lorraine out that he'd melt my brain." - George McFly
by GreenAndGoldFish on May 6, 2008 11:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's interesting to think about
But, let’s just say you’re doing that, and one of the pitchers (we’ll say Gaudin just for kicks) retires 9 straight batters on 32 pitches to start a game. Are you really going to pull him?
by mikev on May 6, 2008 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not necessarily, but I would if I knew I was going to pitch him again in 3 days
You wouldn’t have to stick to a strict max 3 innings, you could play to the situation with the idea that no one is going over, say 4.5 innings. Then you could use your guys with less stamina for situational stuff. The goal being that the opposing lineup would rarely see the same pitcher twice in the same game.
So, Maybe Gaudin for the first three, Blanton for 4-6, Casilla 7&8 with street to close. Then the next night would be Eveland for 1-3, Duke 4-6, Brown 7&8 and Devine to close. Then Maybe Dallas Braden for 1&2, Hardin for 3-5, Embree for 6&7 and Foulke to close.
Everybody knows they are going to get about 2-3 days rest unless the S**t hits the fan and everyone has a chance to push their max effort for a few innings.
"Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told me that if I didn't take Lorraine out that he'd melt my brain." - George McFly
by GreenAndGoldFish on May 6, 2008 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
anyways,
we lead the league in pitching. this isn’t little league, you don’t need to have convoluted pitching use plans to make sure everybody is having fun and getting a turn to play.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough, but are we going to have the lead in pitching at the end of the season?
I’d like to think so, but if managing health is a concern (as it should be for the A’s) is it better to get 200+ innings as a starter going every 5th day for 7+ innings, or as a reliever going less but pitching more often? I don’t know.
Not saying it’s a great idea, just something new.
"Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told me that if I didn't take Lorraine out that he'd melt my brain." - George McFly
by GreenAndGoldFish on May 6, 2008 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with this is
pitchers some days have good stuff, other days don’t have good stuff. When a guy has good stuff, you ride it. When he doesn’t, you weather the storm and hope the bullpen arms can string together a few good innings. I’ve never liked this idea – it’s kind of like sleeping 20 minutes every hour. You may get the same amount of sleep, but the quality won’t be nearly as good.
"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey
by JJ on May 6, 2008 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually read about this
Can’t remember where, but I think it was an athlete of some kind, maybe an Olympian or something. Anyway, he had some bizarre disease or injurywhere he would die or suffer permanent damage or something if he slept for more than 15 minutes at a time while he was recovering. Don’t ask me why, I can’t remember.
He said that it didn’t take long for him to literally turn into a zombie. He couldn’t think or do anything because his brain was so fatigued.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember that, too.
Not specifics, but I remember that he tried to train his body to go directly into REM sleep.
The conclusion, layman style, was that you just plain can’t do it, and your body needs to sleep for hours at a time to recharge itself.
by mikev on May 6, 2008 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What sleep is important!?!
Crap, that’s what I’ve been doing wroZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
"Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told me that if I didn't take Lorraine out that he'd melt my brain." - George McFly
by GreenAndGoldFish on May 6, 2008 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a good point
But it seems like the pitchers we have struggle a bit going past 7 innings. Instead of the everybody’s a reliever idea, what about moving Eveland and Gaudin to the bull pen and going with a four man rotation of Blanton, Hardin, Duke and Smith. With the expectation that anything over 6 innings from the starter is a luxury?
Then when Hardin breaks Eveland or Gaudin replaces him and somebody from AAA gets a shot in the bullpen.
"Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told me that if I didn't take Lorraine out that he'd melt my brain." - George McFly
by GreenAndGoldFish on May 6, 2008 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, you're not supposed to sleep for 20 minutes every hour?
Oops.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on May 6, 2008 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
HARDEN
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
by flipgatey3 on May 7, 2008 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Flotation Rotation/Tried and Failed by...the Oakland Athletics
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on May 6, 2008 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smith's warm-up music needs work.
A Country Boy Will Survive?? Maybe some Swisher type who plays up his humble origins in Hooten Holler can pull that off, but Smith is way too cerebral, reserved and soft-spoken for that tune or genre. .
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on May 6, 2008 11:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
-10
I get it – you don’ t like country? You must be just generally superior (cerebral, reserved, soft-spoken: like WIllie Nelson? Emmy-Lou?).
Now for something completely different: I hate the sound tracks that are blasted throughout the game. I went and watched a low level college game the other day—Baseball, it turns out, is a great sport without even an announcer!
by As Fan in the Bronx on May 6, 2008 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, well, it's a burden.
Actually Willie, and especially Emmylou are the two country acts I would go see, and have on many occasions, dating back to her coffee house days in the 1970s.
And you know what? I’ve never heard either one of them cover that song.
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on May 6, 2008 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You did say "or genre", didn't you?
Yep, there it is: ”... way too cerebral, reserved and soft-spoken for that tune or genre.”
Last I checked, Willie Nelson and Emmylou Harris were both bona-fide, no doubt about it, dyed in the wool stars of the country music genre. As are Kris Kristofferson, Steve Earle, and many other brainy-types (gee, you just wouldn’ta guessed it, what with the cowboy hats and all!). Maybe you meant something different, but as stated, your comment was, well, not cerebral. On the positive side, it was simultaneously condescending and oblivious, so I give you points for stuffing the stat sheet.
If you were, in fact, referring to “extremely shitty pop masquerading as country music” as a genre distinct from actual country music, then I retract the above.
by 74mk on May 6, 2008 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a soft spot for any artist,
country or otherwise, who will write songs about the Missouri-Arkansas theater of combat in the Civil War.
Earle is a very smart, thoughtful guy… unfortunately he’s not typical of the “country” label.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Married 5 times,
weakness for redheads, lost years in nashville – he fits a certain aspect of the paradigm
by Hot Cup Joe on May 6, 2008 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Retraction accepted.
Regardless, my comment was 1 - offered lightly, and 2 - might better be interpreted as being impressed with the poise and erudition of young Mr. Smith, in contrast to ol’ Hank Jr. blathering about spewin’ Beechnut in some dude’s eye. Odd juxtaposition, dontcha think?
As for Willie and Emmylou, for me they sit very high on a very steep mountain—mostly for her traditionalist choices and performance, and his writing. FWIW, I think “Crazy” is a masterpiece. Hank Jr.’s in the swamp, and maybe not even in the same vicinity.
But hell, bein’ not cerebral an’ all, I guess if you ain’t into that—I don’t give a damn.
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on May 6, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re right, it might better be interpreted as such. And it probably would have been, had it been, you know, clear.
As to the second paragraph, I agree.
As to the last line, I have no idea what you are trying to say. Whatever it is, though, you sure are saying it cleverly. I guess.
by 74mk on May 6, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You seem to find it easier to detect arrogance and condescension in someone else's writing.
I’m not sure why you really chose to pick this fight, but it’s certainly not worth continuing from my standpoint.
Perhaps a simple GFY will be sufficiently clear to convey my interest in your editorial opinion.
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on May 6, 2008 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your initial comment was pretty squarely situated within the realm of cliched cultural condescension.
I wasn’t picking a fight. I just hate tired stupid yokel humor.
Apart from that, you appeared to deride country music, writ large. I also consider that particular critique tired and stupid.
But hey, you clarified. So I retract the “oblivious” portion of my response. I retract it a thousand times over, with an open heart, a generous soul, and in the spirit of our common humanity.
I’m sticking with “condescending”, though, despite your cunning utilization of the tried and true “well you are too” tactic. (I am not! Not, not, not!)
Wait, you know what? The hell with it. Damn the torpedoes. I will acknowledge that I’m prone to condescension. Not all the time, but often enough to deserve criticism.
Ahhh. Cathartic.
Synopsis: I’m an arrogant bastard who misunderstood your unclear and condescending post, then snidely and dismissively responded to your defensive and condescending rebuttal, which caused you to fire off an angry reply containing a mean-spirited acronym I had to Google, which in turn spawned this post I’m currently typing.
Man. Buzz Bissinger was right all along.
by 74mk on May 6, 2008 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boy am I naive
I didn’t Google it before, because I just assumed it meant “good for you”. Seriously.
formerly known as mdl
by iglew on May 6, 2008 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally like only a few country artists, but Crazy is definitely
one of my favorite all-time songs, esp. when done by Patsy Cline.
witty remark
by dtownmbrown on May 6, 2008 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I gotta say ...
... that even though I love Emmylou, like Willie, and respect Steve (I can’t stand to listen to him), they’re about the most Starbuccio’s-friendly “country” artists imaginable.
They are, essentially, the Joe Morgan-beloved, play-the-game-right, RBI-heavy players, whereas the rest of the genre has passed them by. Their “authenticity” is almost entirely a function of their audience’s dislike for the current way the game is played.
We're going to knock balls out of the country's park, for the home team, which is America. @('.')@
by monkeyball on May 6, 2008 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Starbuccio?
I love Clint Black. Is he “authentic”? I have no idea.
formerly known as mdl
by iglew on May 6, 2008 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a stretch
Is Exit O Starbucks-friendly?
For crying out loud, they sell Dylan CD’s at Starbucks now. Does that mean his authenticity is somehow in question? (If you answer “yes” to that, I am going to leap through my screen and strangle you, unless you mean it in the I’m Not There sense, in which case, okay)
I’m just not sure the Starbucks critique is particularly relevant. All those artists have plenty of fans who were there way before they could buy a greatest hits collection along with their latte. Also: Don’t make the mistake of holding an artist hostage to his/her less than stellar late-career offerings. Starbucks or not, and keeping up with the genre or not, that trio has produced a ton of great stuff through the years.
And ... The important distinction is between crap and non-crap, not authentic and inauthentic. Like, Waylon Jennings is (was, sadly) awesome. Shania Twain is not. Or: Iris Dement is awesome. Garth Brooks, not. Etc.
by 74mk on May 6, 2008 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey, you were the one to invoke "bona-fide"
... and, yes, I know, that was likely in the Holly Hunter-in-O Brother quasi-ironic mode of the term, but still.
I’m gonna keep going sabermetric on this question: Garth and Shania, in terms of album sales, concert revenue, and empire-building, have massive OPS+ advantages over your lineup of high-sock-wearing punch-and-judy Ecksteins.
Different people have different tastes. Lots more people think Garth and Shania are non-crap than think they’re crap.
We're going to knock balls out of the country's park, for the home team, which is America. @('.')@
by monkeyball on May 6, 2008 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Garth would've been lucky to be Eckstein...
in Spring Training several years back. I think the obvious counter-metaphor (heh) is that when the average consumer pays top dollar to see a Garth or a Shania in concert, the talent is being overvalued. The more obscure artists are undervalued by the GMs/record co. execs, and therefore by the public at large. These circumstances are starting to shift, though-I’m not sure if Moneyball has been written yet, but Bill James sure has gained a cult following at this point (and the Sandy Aldersons are paying attention), as radio airplay and record contracts edge towards obsolescence thanks to the ‘Net. Edge being the operative word, but…well, switching genres, Trent Reznor released his latest album independently, and primarily via the Web. Granted, his reputation makes that move much more secure than it would be…not exactly on equal footing with upstarts as worthy of recognition…but the foundation is being built. I would say that with that decision, Jeremy Brown has been drafted-and Trent may have indeed thrown a chair during some point of his career given the his history of disputes with his record label. As alluded to earlier, his past success/loyal fanbase does afford him the advantage of having 7 first round picks to aid the experiment. As for the Garths and Shanias of the world, well, being pop stars in a genre that would be less compatible with innovation than any other, one can only guess that they’ll struggle with the transition in the same way as the 2008 Yankees. Lucky for them, in their game, it’s not 2008 yet.
the city dumps fill
the junkyards fill
the madhouses fill
the hospitals fill
the graveyards fill
nothing else
fills.
by Cutthemullet on May 7, 2008 3:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll be honest...
I hate country-western. All forms and genres. I won’t retract, no matter how arrogant and dismissive 74mk is about my views. I don’t love Jesus, either.
Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb
by FoolshGame22 on May 7, 2008 3:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One thing about Brooks
is that at least he had quite a few writing credits on his records. Not that he was necessarily the principle songwriter, but alot of the pop-country artists don’t write at all. They’re just singers. I give Brooks credit for that. I debit him all of his pseudo-country, failed-rocker bullshit. Fucking sellout.
Don’t know who Iris Dement is, but I’ll check her out.
It's Rhodes Scholar Night at the Coliseum tonight.
by Scottbass on May 7, 2008 1:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good.
Acquired taste. (but good)
Also, this book, if I’m remembering correctly, ably elucidates the origins of her awesomeness.
by 74mk on May 7, 2008 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did a Wiki search on her last night.
Looks like Infamous Angel will be the one I try.
It's Rhodes Scholar Night at the Coliseum tonight.
by Scottbass on May 7, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the song.
I like the idea of it, I guess. Except that whole verse about his buddy in the big ‘ol, scary city is just pure hack.
It's Rhodes Scholar Night at the Coliseum tonight.
by Scottbass on May 7, 2008 2:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's the definition of insanity?...
...doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Why is this even a debate? Because he’s good/dominant? Dominating the trainer’s table, maybe.
Several random thoughts…
- The rotation is doing well as it is. If it ain’t broke, don’t “fix” it.
- Harden ain’t gonna stay healthy. I feel confident enough about that likllihood to call it now. Why disrupt everybody else for an exercise in futility.
- Put Harden in the pen. Before everybody else is disrupted, let’s see if he really can hold up to the physical pressures of major league pitching. He doesn’t want to go? So what? He should be thanking the baseball-Gods that he stayed just healthy enough just long enough to get at least one nice contract. Seriously, how has he helped the team in the last few years? What has he done to warrant any kind of optimism, health-wise?
- If his injury(ies) were a random thing, I’d feel completely the opposite. It isn’t.
I know this sounds harsh, and goes against all baseball ‘wisdom’ or tradition or whatever, but if the team is winning I say go with what’s working.
Disclaimer: I like Harden, and would love nothing more than to see him finally succeed, but I’ve had it. I honestly just don’t see it happening.
Some read stats. Fans actually watch the games.
by UncleLeo on May 6, 2008 1:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
harden is still young
he still have a chance to prove what he can be. when healthy he is the best pitcher in the game hands down. it just seems like he had rushed to come back from a few injuries before. i think the A’s should take it a bit slower with him. let him truly recover to 100% before putting him in the bullpen.
by Wreckonized on May 6, 2008 1:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"When healthy..."...
...that phrase makes me want to pull my hair out. It’s rationalizing the elephant in the room. Given Harden’s health history, when exactly, will that be?
Take it slow… let him get back to 100%... 60-day DL for the remainder of the year… exercise his 2009 option and try again next year.
Some read stats. Fans actually watch the games.
by UncleLeo on May 6, 2008 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There isn't any time to "take it slower."
He’s going to be a free agent in 2010. His theoretical trade value is evaporating as we sit here as the period in which he’s still cheap disappears without him actually pitching healthily.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe...
...he could be a free agent after this season if the team chooses to not exercise his option for 2009. Something in return would be nice, but at this point I wouldn’t mind if they chose to go that route if a deal can’t be worked out sooner.
Some read stats. Others actually watch the game.
by UncleLeo on May 6, 2008 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the deal for everyone who doesn't know the particulars
Harden’s contract expires after this season. The team has a $7 million option on him for next year with no buyout. However, Harden will still have under 6 years of service time (the cutoff for free agency) at the end of this year. So the team basically has 3 options.
1. Take the option and pay him $7 million next year.
2. Decline the option, then go to salary arbitration with Harden (or get him to sign a one-year deal).
3. Decline the option, then non-tender him, which will release him from the team. The A’s will not get compensation for losing him.
Any of these options could be in play depending on his performance and injuries over the rest of the year.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I choose option #2
Heck, if Harden accepts, he could end up owing the A’s money.
And what did we do once we discovered a rift in the fourth dimension? We launched a monkey into it. @('.')@
by monkeyball on May 6, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For better or worse, this is not actually true...
First, Harden has to accept, because he’s under 6 years, and second, the max paycut for a pre-free agency player is to 80% of his salary the prior year, which would be $3.6 million.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather make him a 3.6M gamble in 2009 instead of a 7M gamble.
by mikev on May 6, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could he decline arbitration and be a free agent? No compensation for the A's there.
Chiba Lotte lost simultaneously in the fighter plane of the Japanese ham.
by JediLeroy on May 6, 2008 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He can't decline it because he's still under team control.
he either accepts arbitration or the settle on a 1 year contract.
by mikev on May 6, 2008 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, sure
But if he returns and pitches 160 innings with a 2.8 ERA, he’s going to get a lot more than $3.6 million.
As I said, all three options are in play depending on what happens the rest of this season.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
*IF* he does that...
...sure, take a chance on the option. I ain’t holdin’ my breath.
Some read stats. Others actually watch the game.
by UncleLeo on May 6, 2008 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take door #2, Monte.
I wasn’t aware he’d still be under the six-year mark. Presuming he does indeed stay broken for the rest of the year, they’d be fools to exercise his option.
Some read stats. Others actually watch the game.
by UncleLeo on May 6, 2008 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harden
As soon as he can prove his health over any length of time, the A’s will deal him away. With all the young pitching promise he will be dealt before he becomes a free agent. Although he must prove that he is healthy for a period of at least 10 + starts in a row.
by Billy Beane's Brain on May 6, 2008 1:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
East coast resident
Hey all, is there a bay area sports radio station that you can listen to on the web that talks A’s baseball at all? I’ve been searching around but haven’t found much yet.
by jshaw25 on May 6, 2008 2:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
no...
not unless you’re listening an hour and a half before or after an A’s game. But, even then, I doubt it’s broadcast on the web. But, I’ve never tried to listen, since I live in the Bay Area and I just tune in.
FWIW…
AM KYCY 1550
FM KFRC 106..9
KNBR used to mention the A’s in passing, only to tell Giants’ fans how much Bay Area baseball is going to suck this year, but now they’ve stopped mentioning them altogether because the contrast is just too embarrassing, I guess.
Good luck.
Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb
by FoolshGame22 on May 7, 2008 3:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't remove either from rotation
How could anyone watching the A’s this year possibly argue for removing either Smith or Eveland? Even in a “best of a bad situation” context, it just makes no sense. It would be one thing if either guy seemed to be doing it with mirrors, just getting lucky in terms of success so far. But both have pitched superbly, and both just threw their best games. So, no, Beane is no fool. He isn’t going to drop one of these guys from the rotation unless they do something to deserve it.
by RLangford on May 6, 2008 3:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Gaudin to pen?
Is Slusser intimating that the A’s may be thinking of going with Smith and Eveland on their regularly scheduled days Fri and Sat respectively (due to the off day) with Harden pitching Sunday (if healthy)? This makes some sense as a temporary measure in that Gaudin might be the best candidate to make a quick transition to the bullpen. Gaudin could pitch an inning Fri and perhaps 2 on Sunday in relief of Harden. This would give the A’s another chance to see the young lefties and/or have the inevitable injury happen.
by Larry E on May 6, 2008 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of the two...
...I have a bit less confidence in Eveland to keep it up, but that’s more of a gut feeling based on his age and the longer time he took to get to this level. I still think he’s earned his spot, though.
Some read stats. Others actually watch the game.
by UncleLeo on May 6, 2008 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Say what?
Eveland is all of two months older than Smith and reached the bigs in 2005 rather than 2008.
I’m not following you here.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 6, 2008 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very nice piece
The thought of losing either of those guys from the rotation is unfortunate, but what can you do? It’s a nice problem to have, and I anticipate either one of their services being needed sooner rather than later, unfortunately.
by passionately objective on May 6, 2008 5:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sadly, in making the decision a primary consideration
should be the assumption that whoever is sent down or to the bullpen will probably be back in the rotation very soon.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on May 6, 2008 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zito's back in the Giants' rotation...
after working out the kinks in the pen. So, short stays in the bullpen are not necessarily a bad thing.
Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb
by FoolshGame22 on May 7, 2008 3:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow - there's "suck" and there's Brad Hennessey.
Now 14.1 IP, 33 hits. Oops.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on May 6, 2008 5:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
looks more like bad luck. His BABIP is crazy, and he’s been getting a pretty normal GB/FB/LD/IF ratio.
by MrIncognito on May 6, 2008 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bad luck?
Yes, the only reason he’s given up 33 hits in 14 innings is a skoch of bad luck. I hate it when that happens.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on May 6, 2008 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
kruk and kuip
just spent five minutes listing all the things moms bring with them to the ballpark.
snacks, bottles, diapers, coloring books, goldfish, maybe cheerios…
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on May 6, 2008 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
kuiper: "we have reached the point in the game where we're watching people eat french fries."
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on May 6, 2008 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When going to Giants' games...
moms can’t afford to forget the pacifier.
the city dumps fill
the junkyards fill
the madhouses fill
the hospitals fill
the graveyards fill
nothing else
fills.
by Cutthemullet on May 7, 2008 3:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i say send down smith
bring him back up if there’s a trade or a starter is ineffective, or when one of harden/duke/gaudin get injured.
if none of that happens (probability: 0.5%) and smith continues to pitch well in aaa, giving us six above average starters, go with a 6 man rotation in late-july-august-september because the a’s only have 3 days off in like two and a half months.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on May 6, 2008 5:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
We're going to knock balls out of the country's park, for the home team, which is America. @('.')@
by monkeyball on May 6, 2008 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Get Facts Straight
Don’t know how old Eveland is but Smith is 24!!! Smith is very poised and composed on the mound. How many rookies could do in the first month what he has done.?Remember, Smith was a non-roster invitee to Spring training and did better than the Brass had expected. Maybe that’s why the Brass took so long to make a decision on the fifth starter spot. Haven’t been an A’s fan long, but the proof is in the pudding. Go with the five guys who give you the best chance to win – screw their age and years left til arbitration. This is baseball and the name of the game is wins. Which five give the A’s the best chance of winning. As I just read on the A’s website, the Rockies are inquiring about Harden or Blanton but the A’s said no way – not know. Geaux Tigers and Geaux Smith.
by TexasTodd on May 6, 2008 7:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
eveland is two months older than smith
"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006
by flipgatey3 on May 7, 2008 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs






















