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Mustering Monday's Minor League Minions at Midnight

I've got good news and bad news for those who follow these minor league updates.

The good news is that I've moved to Sacramento so I'll (hopefully) be able to include some Mark 1 eyeball scouting with my statistical analysis. I'd love to head down to Stockton and watch Anderson, Cahill and Doolittle firsthand.

The bad news is the move down here has left me flat broke, so until I start to make some money I won't be able to actually attend the games. And then there's the whole wildland fire thing that's probably going to keep me kinda busy over the summer. So if I disappear for a couple weeks don't rejoice too much, I'll be coming back eventually.

On to the prospects!

(All stats as of 5/17/08)

AAA

The River Cats' roster includes 11 players that are on Oakland's 40 man roster. Unfortanetly some of the best performances are coming from players NOT on said roster.

Pitchers on the 40-man roster:

Jerry Blevins: 14 G  16.0 IP  18 H  1 HR  4/15 BB/K  3.94 ERA  5 Sv

Dallas Braden: 5 G/4 GS  21.0 IP  24 H  1 HR  7/21 BB/K  2.14 ERA

Lenny DiNardo: 4 GS  24.0 IP  32 H  4 HR  0/10 BB/K  5.25 ERA

Jeff Gray: 16 G  21.0 IP  28 H  2 HR  9/15 BB/K  5.57 ERA

Dan Meyer: 8 G/6 GS  38.0 IP  28 H  4 HR  22/37 BB/K  4.97 ERA

Hitters on the 40-man roster:

Landon Powell: 76 AB  211/315/526  3 Doubles  7 HR  12/19 BB/K

Kevin Melillo: 105 AB  286/356/467  3 Doubles  2 Triples  4 HR  11/21 BB/K

Travis Buck: 50 AB  240/309/340  2 Doubles  1 HR  5/8 BB/K

Carlos Gonzalez: 111 AB  306/358/450  5 Doubles  1 Triple  3 HR  9/22 BB/K

Chris Denorfia: 1 Game Played

Jeff Fiorentino: DL

Braden seems to have returned to Sac's rotation, his only appearance since his demotion was a start on May 12th. Does this mean the A's still consider Dallas a starting capable pitcher or is his Oakland bullpen time a harbinger of things to come? DiNardo is what he is, a 5th SP innings eater you're always trying to replace with a more talented body. Blevins has been relatively solid, a disasterous start continues to drag his overall numbers down. Jeff Gray has yet to show the form that had locked up a spot in Oakland's 2007 bullpen before his shoulder gave out. Dan Meyer has regained the stuff but not the control that made him the centerpiece of the Hudson trade. I'd say stick a fork in him but the last time I did that he went out and threw 6 no-hit innings his next time out. Still, he turns 27 in July so if he's going to bounce back he better hurry the frak up.

Powell has shown good power and solid patience but he can't buy a single to save his immortal soul. Melillo's positioning himself to compete for Mark Ellis' job in 2009, assuming Mark's days are numbered in Oakland. Magic 8-ball says... reply hazy, try again. CarGon is still looking strong but he needs more AB.

Pitchers not on the 40-man roster:

Gio Gonzalez: 8 GS  39.0 IP  43 H  4 HR  22/30 BB/K  4.85 ERA

Kirk Saarloos: 6 GS  36.0 IP  44 H  6 HR  6/21 BB/K  3.25 ERA

Brad Ziegler: 14 G  19.1 IP  13 H  0 HR  4/14 BB/K  0.47 ERA  5 Sv

Ryan Wing: 14 G  16.1 IP  13 H  1 HR  6/15 BB/K  1.10 ERA

Hitters not on the 40-man roster:

Todd Linden: 70 AB  343/465/557  6 Doubles  3 HR  14/22 BB/K

Eric Chavez: 2 Games Played

Jeff Baisley: 126 AB  278/355/476  7 Doubles  6 HR  13/21 BB/K

Danny Putnam: 124 AB  274/362/484  5 Doubles  7 HR  16/30 BB/K

Gio has had his struggles in AAA (Note: Sunday's start was a Good Day!) but at 22 he's got plenty of time to sort things out. He's young relative to the league and he did struggle through his first go-around in AA. I have a hunch that even after he masters AAA it will take him some time to adjust to the Show. Saarloos is anchoring the River Cats' rotation, and I mean that in the good way. I don't think he'll get another shot in Oakland but stranger things have happened... I suppose. Brad Ziegler has been lights out in AAA, sharing the closer role with Blevins and getting both lefties and righties out. In terms of straight performance, Ziegler deserves the call the next time the A's need bullpen help. The reality is Brad is 28 years old and not on the 40-man roster, meaning the A's would have to waive/release/trade someone currently on the 40-man to make room for Brad. Do the A's love Ziegler enough to do that? Ryan Wing has been almost as good as Ziegler, and as a 26 year old lefty pitcher he might have a better shot at the A's making the necessary roster moves to get him to Oakland.

Linden's smashing the ball but all he's really doing is showcasing his skills for some other team. Eric Chavez makes this list thanks to the wonders of the 60-day DL. He's not playing in the field yet so don't let his early hitting get you worked up. The A's do not need another DH-only canidate on the roster. Jeff Baisley and Danny Putnam are doing well enough to get a shot in Oakland IF they were already on the 40-man roster. However, I don't think they're doing well enough to force a roster move.

AA

The RockHounds have two players on the roster that reside on the 40-man roster. Javier Herrera is still on the DL with a hamstring problem and Henry Rodriguez (6 GS  29 H  1 HR  25/25 BB/K  7.66 ERA) is getting his clock cleaned, so not much point in going too in-depth over these two. Although I feel compelled to say this: Last year teams were still inquiring about Javier Herrera in trade discussions. If his name should come up again this year I don't see any reason not to move him. I know some would say he has some of the best tools in the organization... I see a guy who doesn't actually get on the field. I don't care how talented or toolsy a guy is, if he doesn't play he DOES NOT HELP his team win games.

Pitchers:

Vincent Mazzaro: 9 GS  52.2 IP  44 H  3 HR  16/38 BB/K  2.05 ERA

Ryan Webb: 8 G/7 GS  43.1 IP 55 H  3 HR  16/30 BB/K  4.78 ERA

James Simmons: 8 GS  40.0 IP  37 H  4 HR  8/31 BB/K  2.93 ERA

Andrew Bailey: 8 GS  37.0 IP  28 H  3 HR  22/31 BB/K  5.11 ERA

Jay Marshall: 17 G  27.1 IP  19 H  1 HR  7/20 BB/K  0.99 ERA

Andrew Carignan: 8 G  7.2 IP  6 H  1 HR  7/6  BB/K  1.17 ERA  3 Sv

Hitters:

Jesus Guzman: 176 AB  352/401/551  9 Doubles  1 Triple  8 HR  15/35 BB/K (May: 60 AB  217/319/367  3 Doubles  2 HR  9/9 BB/K)

Aaron Cunningham: 60 AB  317/382/467  3 Doubles  2 HR  6/15 BB/K

Jonathan Zeringue: 149 AB  282/392/523  10 Doubles  1 Triple  8 HR  22/45 BB/K

Anthony Recker: 138 AB  261/329/406  10 Doubles  2 Triples  2 HR  14/44 BB/K

Just as nobody predicted, Vincent Mazzaro is the Ace of the RockHounds staff! Webb's stuff has (supposedly) bumped up but he's struggled to control it. Simmons had been pitching pretty well until his last start on the 14th. He gave up 5 ER in 4.1 IP and ended up on the DL the next day with shoulder fatigue. Simmons is expected to miss a couple starts at the most so I'm not sure if this creates an opportunity for one of Stockton's arms. We'll see. Bailey has struggled with his consistency... and that's all I've got to say about that. Marshall has an almost 3:1 groundball to flyball ratio and looks to be in line for a promotion to AAA at the next available opportunity. Carignan was immediately thrust into the RockHounds closer role. His secondary line doesn't support his ERA but if his BB/K rate gets straightened out Street becomes that much more available in a trade.

There's a lot to like about Jesus Guzman, he's 23, he can play anywhere in the infield and his overall line says "Promote me byiatch!" but his May numbers urge caution. What will he do in June? Aaron Cunningham is showing that he's over his wrist injury but I don't see a place for him in Sac until Buck and or CarGon get promoted to Oakland. Zeringue has a solid line but he's 25. I expect more then solid numbers from a player a couple years older then the league average before I'm willing to call for his promotion. Anthony Recker gets a shout out because last time I talked about him his numbers were terrible. They aren't great now but he's certainly taken a step in the right direction.

A+

Stockton is starting to lose some of it's pre-season luster. Brett Anderson just got shelled (so badly that I half expect to see him end up on the DL by Tuesday) and Chris Carter is proving to be streakier than expected. Travis Banwart just got promoted from Kane County (started yesterday) and Sam Demel is the new closer. DLS is still on the shelf with a sore elbow.

Pitchers:

Trevor Cahill: 8 GS  49.2 IP  27 H  0 HR  12/62 BB/K  1.81 ERA

Brett Anderson: 8 GS  44.0 IP  42 H  3 HR  13/44 BB/K  4.09 ERA

Jason Fernandez: 6 GS  33.2 IP  28 H  3 HR  17/24 BB/K  3.74 ERA

Sam Demel: 16 G  18.1 IP  16 H  1 HR  12/26 BB/K  3.93 ERA

Jared Lansford: 7 G  17.2 IP  14 H  0 HR  5/23 BB/K  2.04 ERA (Relief only)

Hitters:

Sean Doolittle: 157 AB  363/446/688  11 Doubles  2 Triples  12 HR  25/46 BB/K

Josh Horton: 137 AB  307/426/394  6 Doubles  3 Triples  28/24 BB/K

Matt Sulentic: 131 AB  298/372/504  11 Doubles  2 Triples  4 HR  15/32 BB/K

Jermaine Mitchell: 129 AB  256/368/411  7 Doubles  2 Triples  3 HR  22/35 BB/K (vs. RHP: 88 AB  295/421/489  7 Doubles  2 Triples  2 HR  19/23 BB/K)

Chris Carter: 156 AB  237/335/513  6 Doubles  2 Triples  11 HR  22/47 BB/K

Trevor Cahill brings tears of joy to my eyes. The only reason he's still in Stockton is because Beane wants me to see him once before he goes off to Midland. Really, that's the most logical explanation left. What's up with Brett Anderson? Fernandez is a guy who I think will continue to get oberlooked while he continues to advance slowly but surely through the organizational ranks. Demel's closing and striking people out but the walks are an issue. Arnold Leon is pitching great but he returns to Mexico at the end of the month. Jared Lansford has pitched great out of the bullpen but the A's don't seem to be in a hurry to try him in back-to-back games. As his 17.2 IP in 7 relief appearances can attest, the A's are leaving him in for multiple innings. Are they keeping him stretched out in the hopes that he'll have some kind of breakthrough with his off-speed stuff and they'll be able to move him back into the rotation?

Doolittle has done everything short of buying his own plane ticket to Midland. Horton's shown the bat control expected of him but I think the A's would like to see a bit mre power before they promote him. The big question on Horton is can he handle SS? Sulentic has been good but expect to see his name on Stockton's roster for a while, at least until the Ports bump him up from 9th in the line-up. Mitchell almost got cut from this report until I took another look at his splits. Lefties have owned him thus far but this is a correctible deficiency. I expect Mitchell to stay in Stockton for the rest of the season so he can work on hitting LHP. Chris Carter either hits the ball very much or not at all.

A-

For now, the line-up remains the Corey Brown and others show. Pitching is the Cougars' strength, helped out of course by a big home park.

Pitchers:

Craig Italiano: 8 GS  40.0 IP  23 H  1 HR  15/52 BB/K  0.90 ERA

Jamie Richmond: 8 GS  44.0 IP  39 H  4 HR  5/30  BB/K  3.07 ERA

Scott Mitchinson: 6 GS  35.1 IP  30 H  1 HR  7/35 BB/K  2.29 ERA

Hitters:

Corey Brown: 139 AB  288/377/518  10 Doubles  2 Triples  6 HR  21/49 BB/K

Italiano's numbers are dominant but he's barely pitched over the last two years. At 21 years old I don't expect the A's to rush him up to Stockton. I think a more likely scenario has Italiano spend virtually the whole season in Low-A, with maybe a late-season promotion to High-A and a shot at AA to start the 2009 season. Because they're older, Mitchinson and Richmond are in more need of getting pushed quickly. Last time around I wondered what 24 year old Scott Moore had to do to get a promotion to at least High-A. The A's response: they're trying Moore as a SP now that Banwart is in Stockton.

Corey Brown is the only Cougar hitter I find worthy of mention. The story with Brown is still the same: Lots of strike outs, a fair number of walks and power. Will he ever smooth out his game?

 So where does that leave us? I don't see anyone who could make a dramatic impact on Oakland's immediate future but there is help that could be available come the 2nd half. The bulk of the pitching looks like it won't be ready until 2009 at the earliest. If the season ended today Stockton's Doolittle and Cahill would probably be voted as the A's top two prospects but they're at least a year away from contributing at the big league level. Their current level of production screams for a promotion to AA and Beane has said that once a player shows he can handle AA a jump to the Show isn't too far away.

Figured I should leave folks with a happy thought to wrap things up.

(I know, me shutting up is a happy enough thought for most! Freaking Nico...)

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justin friend

my former teammate at chabot college, is doing a really good job in the kane county bullpen.

3.27 era, 3 saves, 22 ip, 32 k’s, .190 BAA

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Justin%20Friend&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=518697

"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006

by flipgatey3 on May 20, 2008 12:10 AM PDT   0 recs

I went to my first

Rivercats game on Saturday. I loved it. CarGon seems to be the real deal and Linden looks good too.
It was very refreshing to watch these young men behave in such a fan friendly manner too.
We did get to meet AN’s Ziggy but alas he didn’t get into the game! Oh well…guess that’s a reason to go back again to another game.

by IM4Oakgal on May 20, 2008 12:21 AM PDT   0 recs

Chavez played 5 innings to day at 3rd.

and went 2-3 at the plate.

When will then be now? Soon.

by Syphon on May 20, 2008 1:06 AM PDT   0 recs

Isn't that so great?

I’d love to have a productive Chavvy back with the A’s!

by IM4Oakgal on May 20, 2008 1:14 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Im counting down the days.

He cant get here soon enough. Same goes for Buck, provided he gets himself back to where he was last year.

When will then be now? Soon.

by Syphon on May 20, 2008 1:25 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Chavez

Anyone get a chance to see Chavez play and have any reports on how he looked there?

The way Oakland’s hitting has been lately, getting him back would be very nice.

by rageon on May 20, 2008 6:52 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Much better than he did when I saw him Thursday night

But that should be expected.

He looked comfortable.

------ 84.6% of all statistics are made up.
http://feeds.feedburner.com/athleticsnationpodcast

by gallopingael on May 20, 2008 2:39 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Bah.

Leave him there. Let Hannahan grow.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on May 20, 2008 10:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Hannahan is 28

What he is now, which is a more or less league-average 3B, is as good as he is ever going to get.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on May 20, 2008 11:22 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It figures that

Cahill, the one guy really worthy of our complete and unconditional adulation in the system right now went out and got shelled tonight. 8 ER in 5 innings. He did manage to strike out 6 though, so I wouldn’t really worry. His ERA’s still a low 2.96 and the CAL League is just tough to pitch in.

Nonetheless, it’s been an ugly, ugly ride for that vaunted Stockton rotation that had us all giddy and warm inside before the season started. Anderson’s at a 5.68 ERA after getting shellacked a couple nights ago, De Los Santos was at 5.87 before going down with an injury, and Henry Rodriguez has been an absolute mess since getting promoted. You had Cahill as that one shining bright spot and then he had to go and get lit up tonight. (Though, like I said, I don’t really think it’s cause for concern. Just sort of bitterly fitting.)

At least Leon has gone unscathed out of the bullpen down at Stockton. And of course I haven’t had the chance to see any of these pitchers in person so it may not be nearly as bad as the numbers suggest for some of them. (Or, depending on if you want your glass half empty or half full, it could also be worse. But let’s try not to think about that.)

Carter’s line sits at .228/.339/.494, and he’s struck out in nearly a fourth of his plate appearances in a notoriously hitter-friendly league. Yeesh. Though, it is nice to see Sulentic hitting. He’s still only 20, and has plenty of time to develop yet.

And, finally, Gio’s Sunday start, which was indeed good, brought his season line to 45 IP, 39/24 K/BB, 4.40, which, while not great, could be worse. He’s young, and he’s striking people out. That’s at least a nice start.

RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.

by walk off bunt on May 20, 2008 2:13 AM PDT   0 recs

Yes, I jinxed Cahill

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on May 20, 2008 5:42 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Cahill

If it’s any consolation, I looks like those 8 runs were given up in the first inning, and Cahill pitched a great game after that for the next 4 innings.

Sometimes life will strike you out on a curve ball and the only choice you have is to flip off the umpire and walk to first base anyway.

by Threepwood XX on May 20, 2008 9:30 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually, it looks like he pitched well enough for 5 innings

Then put the first 5 guys on in the 6th (two walks, what appears to be a failed forceout on a sacrifice attempt , an infield hit, and a groundball single) and all of them wound up scoring.

Doesn’t exactly seem like he was torched.

by Faust on May 20, 2008 11:11 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks, grover, good stuff

If you don’t have the money to see a game in Stockton right away your best chance to see Cahill and Doolittle may be when they reach Sacramento itself. I’d think Cahill (assuming yesterday was just a little speed bump) and maybe Doolittle too could get to Sacramento as early as the AAA playoffs (say, if Sacramento makes the playoffs but Midland doesn’t).

Do you (or anyone) have any idea what’s gotten into Lansford? His problem a couple years ago at Kane County was that, despite a nice ERA, he never struck anyone out and therefore looked to my eyes pretty much like a non-prospect. Suddenly he’s striking out gobs of batters while greatly reducing his walk rate. Going to the pen helps the peripherals, of course, but not that much. Has he learned a new strikeout pitch, or were they just having him focus on fastball command at Kane County?

In any case, the trio of high school pitchers from the 2005 draft (Italiano, Mazzaro, and Lansford), who looked for a while like they might all three be busts, have all taken a step forward so far this year and become reasonably decent prospects again, although they all need to take another step or two forward before they become exciting prospects.

by Faust on May 20, 2008 4:23 AM PDT   0 recs

If I remember correctly

One of the reasons for why Lansford wasn’t striking people out offered up (which may have been confirmed even, I can’t exactly recall) was that they weren’t allowing him to use his breaking pitches much. But like I said, I can’t really remember how accurate that was found to be.

RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.

by walk off bunt on May 20, 2008 4:44 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes, thanks.

Very good stuff. I very much appreciate the efforts of people like grover and taj to keep people up to date on the minor league prospects. I was attempting to follow the boxscores every day, but have fallen far behind. It’s a big job to do for 4 levels of the minors.

by rageon on May 20, 2008 6:55 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Dear Landon Powell,

Hurry.

Thanks.

-M

by mikev on May 20, 2008 7:45 AM PDT   0 recs

And lay off the third course.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on May 20, 2008 10:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

tough crowd

"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006

by flipgatey3 on May 20, 2008 10:38 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks, Grover, for all your fine work

Moving = ugh. Being broke = ugh. Hang in there.

The candy and the baseball all night long :)

by Englishmajor on May 20, 2008 9:12 AM PDT   0 recs

Must be about time for the annual "half of the system's pitchers go down with shoulder injuries" moment

Anderson clearly had nothing in his last start, DLS is already out, Bailey and Rodriguez couldn’t hit the strike zone if it was the size of a barn. Even Simmons is having “shoulder fatigue.”

I don’t know if these are just dead arm periods, but I’m guessing that doesn’t explain ALL of the struggles.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on May 20, 2008 9:46 AM PDT   0 recs

could be

but anderson still has 45 k’s in 44 ip, and bailey has 40 in 43 ip (but 25 walks). it could be worse. hopefully no one’s gonna get hurt. totally realistic.

"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006

by flipgatey3 on May 20, 2008 10:41 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It helps your K/IP ratio

when you’re facing 9 batters an inning.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on May 20, 2008 11:26 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

< head explodes >

I generally bemoan the profusion of Mr Sabermetric Sporks in the Scrabble ranks who don't know the meaning or usage of 50% of the words they use. -monkeyball

by JediLeroy on May 20, 2008 5:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

On the hitters:

Linden will have to be acted on soon, he has an out clause in his contract at the end of the month.

Does Powell still have more HR than singles?

Aaron Cunningham has started off very well in AA. Had some plate discipline issues very early on but he seems to have corrected that.

Guzman has fallen off the ridonkulous pace he was on earlier, but note the 1:1 BB/K ratio in May—as his bat has slowed down, his plate discipline has improved. That’s a good sign. It’s much better to ride out slumps by getting selective than by hacking at everything trying to get a hit (yes, Emil Brown, I am in fact talking to you).

I still have hopes for Fiorentino but he and the AAA level just do not seem to mix somehow.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on May 20, 2008 9:58 AM PDT   0 recs

7

7 singles.

Whatever, I’ll take a Richie Sexson batting line if it comes with walks and good catching defense.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on May 20, 2008 10:11 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Does that include the one...

...from last night where he got thrown out at 2nd?

That play cost my friend a Bingo and 2 free tickets.

------ 84.6% of all statistics are made up.
http://feeds.feedburner.com/athleticsnationpodcast

by gallopingael on May 20, 2008 3:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Is he that much of a jerk?

I thought Linden looked great at the plate this spring, it seems like he is hitting the ball well for Sacramento, and then we run Rajai Davis out there? He is slugging .538 with an OBP of .447.

You don't win friends with salad.

by tresselfan on May 20, 2008 12:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Despite his mouth, Linden seems to me to be worthy of a call up

when the next opportunity presents itself.

I don’t know about you, but I am just utterly annoyed whenever Davis gets any at bats in a game and I get seriously pissed when I see him leading off. Note to A’s front office: he is not a major league hitter and his speed just isn’t enough of a factor to keep giving him at bats. Seriously, he was released by the Gnats! The Gnats!

by oaktownmario on May 20, 2008 10:23 AM PDT   0 recs

this is probably true on both counts

it’s fun to watch davis run down fly balls and steal bases, but that means he has to be playing and getting ABs

"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006

by flipgatey3 on May 20, 2008 10:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He has what, one stolen base? He's clearly been criminally mismanaged throughout

his career. He’s a shocking bunter and has little base running ability – for someone with his raw speed that’s inexcusable. He could have made himself millions just by being able to play good/great D, pinch run (whilst being a huge base stealing threat) and bunt for hits.

As it is he’s going to be DFA’d as soon as Buck finds his swing.

by OldhamA on May 20, 2008 10:55 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

#'s agree

2nd on team in walks, slg 538/OBP .447

You don't win friends with salad.

by tresselfan on May 20, 2008 12:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm sure this was discussed last night

but did anyone else throw up a little while watching Petit strike out swinging at those pitches out of the zone last night , twice with the winning run on 2nd?

Its a really a bad sign when you see players swinging on a pitch that far out of the zone on an 0-2 count. If plate discipline is a genetic trait then man..this guys doesn’t have it. Looks like his overall numbers sort of indicate the same.

If our record is still sitting at around .500 by the deadline, we seriously need to trade some of our spare parts for some middle infield depth down on the farm.

by GusanoQuemador on May 20, 2008 10:39 AM PDT   0 recs

You're probably right

But I’m just going to go ahead and play the know it all arm-chair scout role and say that he looked so bad in those 2 at bats that he’ll never have the plate discipline to be an impact major league hitter. There I said it.

by GusanoQuemador on May 20, 2008 11:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm going to go ahead

and play the know it all armchair critic role and say that you looked so bad on this thread that you’ll never have the post discipline to be an impact blogger. There, I said it.

(Relax, relax. I’m not serious. I’m just saying, don’t jump to conclusions from a small sample size.)

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on May 20, 2008 12:45 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, I don't have the intelligence, or wit to become an impact blooger

I also don’t have a very high VOPT.
Value
Over
Paul
Thomas

by theblackpearl on May 20, 2008 1:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Can we assign win shares to bloggers?

WARPT?

You don't win friends with salad.

by tresselfan on May 20, 2008 1:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

According to Nico, I score very low in that category

but in my defense, even though I strike out a lot, when I make contact I hit the ball a long way.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on May 20, 2008 1:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ok

How about this: He has a -12.76 average VORP for his career thru 2007 and the organization has had about 100 guys with similar numbers come up through the organization, none of whom have made any sort of eye-popping contributions offensively, PLUS my instincts tell me he sucks at taking an 0-2 curveball in the dirt in a critical situation. Hopefully that gets me at least a little back on track. God forbid I don’t become an impact blogger.

(Relax, relax. I’m kidding. I just think its nice to post something every once in a while based on an observation of action, not the stat column)

by GusanoQuemador on May 20, 2008 2:13 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Why would plate discipline be a genetic trait?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 20, 2008 10:45 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

duh

"It's not my fault your team's so shitty." -Steve Friend, head coach, Chabot College, to Laney College's head coach, who asked why we scored so many runs after we beat Laney 30-3 in 2006

by flipgatey3 on May 20, 2008 10:47 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Not "genetic" exactly

But teams have had relatively litte success trying to teach plate discipline – and the A’s are one organization that has tried quite vigorously to teach it.

So whether “genetic” or learned, it appears to be pretty well entrenched by the time players begin their pro careers. So if you want patient hitters, generally you have to sign guys who are already demonstrating that trait.

by Faust on May 20, 2008 11:21 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes, I've often heard the claim

Is there any evidence to show that it is true that plate discipline cannot be learned by pros?

And what makes plate discipline so special, that it is something that cannot be learned by pros?

This obviously isn’t scientific, but when Jose Reyes first came up, many, MANY Sabr influenced analysts concluded confidently that well, plate discipline cannot be learned, he sucks, and he’s going to suck forever. Reyes has certainly improved his plate discipline.

Also, there is the issue of degrees of plate discipline. David Wright, obviously was never the hacker that Reyes was. But, he too has improved his plate discipline.

This are just 2 examples, one, a notorious hacker, the other, with a decent plate approach, who have improved.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 20, 2008 11:54 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think its anything set in stone

but the general rule is that you can’t teach plate discipline, as it were, to the overwhelming majority of professional hitters. There will always be exceptions to the rule from time to time.

by GusanoQuemador on May 20, 2008 11:58 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed

That’s why I said teams have relatively little success teaching it.

If you just approach the subject cold (as teams did before they actually tried to teach plate discipline and found out from experience how well it does or doesn’t work), you’d think this would be something that ought to be quite teachable. I mean, sure you can’t teach speed, you can’t really teach bat speed – but shouldn’t you be able to teach something like taking balls and swinging at strikes?

So it’s something of a surprise that this trait turns out to be as inflexible as it does. Not absolutely inflexible, but a whole lot more than you might expect. Guys show marginal but rarely dramatic improvement in this area.

by Faust on May 20, 2008 12:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Can't teach speed?

Maybe not. You can’t make a slow athlete into a champion 100 meter sprinter. You can make him faster, via proper weight training, and improving his sprint mechanics. You can improve his bat speed. also via proper weight training, and improving his swing mechanics.

But, back to the plate discipline issue.

“Guys show marginal but rarely dramatic improvement in this area.”

Is this not true for most things in pro baseball? You yourself have said that “you can’t teach speed”. Look at other skills in pro basball. A guy with an 85 MPH fastball, is very unlikely to ever throw 95 MPH with his fastball. A guy with little to no power, a slappy hitter in the mold of Juan Pierre or Luis Castillo, is unlikely to ever put up a SLG over 500. The A’s, at least according to Moneyball, which means it might no be true, have believed that power can be “taught”. Is that true, in reality? And many players struggle to learn D too.

What makes plate discipline any different?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 20, 2008 1:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Because intuitively

Plate discipline seems like something you ought to be able to teach. There are physical limitations that keep your or I from hitting home runs or throwing 95, but, seemingly, no reason we can’t figure out how not to be a hacker.

Plate discipline is the one baseball skill with which, it seems, at least, there are no such physical limitations to hold anyone back. The idea is that it’s purely a mental thing. (And no, I don’t really know if it’s true or not. But, simply to answer your question, that’s why people think they can teach plate discipline.)

And I don’t think the A’s in Moneyball thought power could be taught, that rather it was often developed by already good hitters.

RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.

by walk off bunt on May 20, 2008 3:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It would greatly surprise me if plate discipline WAS totally mental

It’s intimately tied in with eyesight, the brain’s physics module, and reaction time. You have to a. see the pitch, b. judge where it’s going, then c. start your swing in time to hit it.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on May 20, 2008 4:14 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He had a good AB in his first plate appearance Sunday...

went to 0-2 but then worked a walk.

Sounds like he was trying to be the hero. It’s an excusable lapse for a guy in his second MLB game.

Also, FWIW, he’s not here for offense.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on May 20, 2008 11:34 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

True his glovework was fun to watch.

But like I said…I threw up…. It sucks to throw up

by GusanoQuemador on May 20, 2008 11:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He shouldn't have been in the position anyway

Yes, I’m still pissed that Barton’s shot didn’t leave the park.

by mikev on May 20, 2008 11:56 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I wouldn't have run for Thomas...

he was the winning run with 2 outs and I had a feeling he’d get up again in extra frames if they left him in…, and an equal feeling they wouldn’t score him from first with two outs…

Oh well…

"You have to have a catcher or you'll have all passed balls."- Casey Stengel

by Gaijin_Suketto on May 20, 2008 1:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I hope to God that...

...he’s not in Oakland for his defense.

My grandmother fields a better ball than he does. She’s 93, had a stroke 4 years ago and is pretty much confined to a wheelchair.

------ 84.6% of all statistics are made up.
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by gallopingael on May 20, 2008 2:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

2007 BA prospect handbook

Best Defensive Infielder: Gregorio Petit
Best Infield Arm: Gregorio Petit

Sorry, chum, but I’m going with the pros on this one.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on May 20, 2008 3:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs