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Exclusive Excerpt: Bash Brothers: A Legacy Subpoenaed

AN is being given the privilege of an exclusive excerpt from Dale Tafoya's book Bash Brothers: A Legacy Subpoenaed.  The book explores all aspects of Jose Canseco and Mark McGwire, everything from their rise to superstardom in the green and gold to their eventual fall from grace.

If you click on the link below you'll be able to read the intro to the book provided exclusively to AN by the author himself, Dale Tafoya.

I also wanted to provide a link for those of you who want to preorder the book.  It's released this week.  If, after reading the excerpt, you are interested in ordering the book from amazon, you just have to click on the image below to order it.

Thank you to Dale for providing this exclusive look inside the book for Athletics Nation.

 

Star-divide

INTRODUCTION

“They’ve got a chance to be the best [duo] there ever was. If they stay healthy and if they stay together for 10 or 15 years, I don’t see how anybody could be as good as they are.”

—Former Oakland A’s third base coach Rene Lachemann
October 1988

Nineteen eighty-eight. Mark McGwire had been slamming the weights for over an hour. The weight room, in the bowels of the Oakland- Alameda Coliseum and steps from the A’s clubhouse, had been his haven. At six foot five, 220 pounds, and strutting rock-like forearms, McGwire had beefed up the lanky frame he carried during his rookie season in 1987. Stretched across his t-shirt screamed, No Mercy. He stole that phrase from his brother-in-law’s bowling team and wore the t-shirt underneath his jersey during each game. Beyond sliding it on, however, he internalized the fearless spirit of the phrase. That attitude intensified his workouts in the weight room and performance on the field.

Moments later, José Canseco strolled into the gym. At six foot four, 230 pounds, he was a twenty-four-year-old oddity. His chiseled face, biceps of steel, and trim waist had once prompted Tigers manager Sparky Anderson to hail him as a “Greek goddess.” Observers, though, understood what Anderson meant. In Anderson’s four decades of baseball, the sport hadn’t seen such an Adonis. Yet Canseco hadn’t lifted weights for over two weeks—the hiatus hadn’t deflated his strength. He slid on the bench press and lifted “everything in the building,” according to former teammate Dave Parker.

McGwire shook his head in disbelief. “You make me sick,” he sarcastically barked at his foil.

Seventeen years later, however, the mood wasn’t so casual. On March 17, 2005, with Americans glued to their televisions and curious congressmen sitting on the dais, glaring down at both and sharpening their inquiries, the muscle-bound duo once dubbed the Bash Brothers marched before the House Government Reform Committee. Without adoring cheers and a glistening baseball field on which to find shelter, McGwire and Canseco were the subjects of an investigation that questioned the legitimacy of their careers and, ultimately, our National Pastime. Drugs, muscles, accusations, greed, and hypocrisy headlined the agenda. The home run, the celebrated feat that personified their careers, had ironically led them before Congress. Facing this knee-buckling task, both braced themselves for a different kind of heat. Even voices from their past sensed the silent tension that hovered over the crammed room in the Rayburn House Office Building. “I felt so uncomfortable,” remembered Hall of Fame closer Dennis Eckersley, who watched the congressional hearings on television. “It was awful.”

“That was the saddest day I had ever spent in sports—without a doubt,” admitted Andy Dolich, the marketing force behind the Oakland A’s during the 1980s and ’90s.

“It bothered me,” recalled former A’s strength and conditioning coach Dave McKay. “I knew Mark’s program, how he took care of himself, and I knew he was uncomfortable there.”

“I felt bad for both of them,” said George Mitterwald, who managed both when they first teamed professionally in Single-A Modesto in 1984. “It was sad.”

“It’s a shame it had to come to that point,” said Keith Lieppman, who managed them with the Triple-A Tacoma Tigers in 1985–86. “I felt sorry for them.”

Some claim that if the Bash Brothers hadn’t transformed the game, someone else would have. Unprecedented power, shattered home-run records, and million-dollar lifestyles, generated by slabs of muscle, would have eventually lured any player into the weight room. Other skeptics, hoping to downplay the duo’s role, insist that they were nothing more than two burly power hitters who had coincidentally headlined the same lineup for parts of eight seasons. After all, there had been prolific, heavy-hitting duos sprinkled throughout baseball history. In the 1920s, the legendary duo Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig highlighted the New York Yankees lineup. Three decades later, in the 1950s, Eddie Matthews and Hank Aaron clobbered 863 home runs while teammates for the Milwaukee Braves. The following decade, the 1960s produced heavy-hitting tandems Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris, and Willie Mays and Willie McCovey. One could imagine what those iconic sluggers would have accomplished if they had played in today’s supplement-fueled era, which players dub, The Show. Still, the Bash Brothers, Mark McGwire and José Canseco, ushered a unique brand of player into baseball. After each muscled a tape-measure home run, their ruggedly animated forearm bash at home plate became a swaggering endorsement for strength and testosterone. In Canseco and McGwire, bodybuilding—with all its vanity and supplements—had infected baseball.

“Up until that era, it was considered taboo to lift weights. They were two of the first [sluggers] who proved you can be buff and muscular and still be productive,” said Ron Kroichick, who covered the A’s for the Sacramento Bee from 1990 to 1994. “It was unlike anything the game had seen. Much like Goose Gossage brought intimidation to the mound, they brought it to the plate.”

Ripped physiques, mysterious supplements, and personal trainers soon crept into the highly competitive baseball culture. Extensive state-of-the-art weight-training facilities had also emerged in every major league stadium. That muscled-up formula altered the game beginning in the late 1980s.

“They played a big role in the way the game changed,” said former teammate Mike Davis. “Prior to Canseco and McGwire, none of the major league teams really had weight rooms. After them, every player started going to weights.”

By the late 1980s, Canseco and McGwire merged into one phrase, like Smith & Wesson and Proctor & Gamble. Headlining posters, tshirts, and magazines, the duo became one of baseball’s feature attractions.

“It was like traveling with a rock band with thousands of fans in each city, in the hotel lobby and at the ballpark,” former A’s public relations director Jay Alves said in a 2004 email. “We set road attendance records. Many times we had to enter hotels through the back entrance.” Teammate Greg Cadaret recalled the phenomenon: “It was a cult following. They were a hip and flashy West Coast duo that played in the World Series and attracted a lot of fans.”

On the East Coast, players like Mickey Tettleton, a once light-hitting catcher who played for the Oakland A’s from 1984-1987, bulked up and bolstered his home-run production with Baltimore and Detroit. Tettleton, who hit only twenty-two home runs during his first four seasons with Oakland, clubbed 224 over his next nine. That power earned him two All-Star Game appearances in 1989 and 1994. “It [weight lifting] helps late in the season,” Tettleton told USA Today in 1997. “When you feel sluggish, it makes you feel like you have a little left in your gas tank.” But it also helped him smash colossal home runs. In 1991, during one week, he crushed two home runs that cleared Tiger Stadium. Said one former teammate of Tettleton, “I remember when he was getting bigger and I was thinking, ‘man, he’s getting huge.’”

Five years later, his former teammate in Baltimore, lead-off hitter Brady Anderson, at age thirty two, attributed weight lifting and the over-the-counter nutritional supplement creatine monohydrate to his ripped six-foot-one, 185-pound physique. That combination, he said, also fueled his fifty-home-run season in 1996. In 1997, Thomas Boswell of the Washington Post wrote, “A few weeks ago, Yankees shortstop Derek Jeter encountered Anderson near the batting cage. Jeter just started laughing. ‘Fifty homers and 110 RBI from a leadoff guy,’ was all he said. Then he walked away.”

The bodybuilding movement spread. Player by player, team by team, and from weight room to weight room, players added strength and transformed their physiques. While many players camouflaged their steroid use with nutritional supplements, such as creatine, some weren’t that naïve. Steroid use “wouldn’t surprise me,” San Francisco Giants general manager Brian Sabean told USA Today in 1997. “If it gives somebody an edge, guys are going to use it. Look how it’s affected other sports. We’d really have our head in the sand if we thought it wasn’t here in baseball.”

Either through steroids or natural means, several mediocre players soared to new heights and a few already talented ones reached stardom by adding muscle and acquiring strength. That left unparalleled greatness reserved for those naturally gifted. That transformation showered them with millions.

Jason Giambi, a slim, sweet-swinging, free-spirited rising star for the Oakland Athletics, pounded the weights. Soon, his sizzling linedrive doubles that pierced the right-center-field alley gained wings and trajectory, soaring over the fence. In 2000, he blasted forty-three home runs, capturing the American League’s Most Valuable Player award. After the 2001 season, he signed a seven-year, $117 million contract with the New York Yankees.

Mike Piazza, a sixty-second-round draft pick by the Los Angeles Dodgers in 1988, climbed through the minor leagues and gained freakish strength. As a right-handed slugger, his booming home runs toward right field arched eyebrows and became his trademark. With his powerful wrists, when the ball met his bat there was a unique-sounding explosion. In 1999, he signed a seven-year, $91 million contract with the New York Mets.

Sammy Sosa soon curled dumbbells and caught the wave in 1993. Over the next thirteen seasons, he averaged forty-two home runs. That’s a staggering increase compared to the ten he averaged during his first seven seasons in professional baseball beginning in 1986. As Sosa’s back widened, so did his wallet. In 1997, Sosa inked a four-year, $42.5 million contract with the Chicago Cubs, becoming the third highest player in baseball at the time.

Barry Bonds added slabs of muscle and morphed into arguably the greatest slugger of all time. Bonds, the son of former All-Star Bobby Bonds, the cousin of Hall of Famer Reggie Jackson, and the godson of the legendary Willie Mays, was groomed for greatness. Before his transformation and rigorous tear-dropping battles with weights in the gym, he had already been destined for Cooperstown. But complementing his polished swing and astute approach was his strength that propelled him past the forefathers of the game. In 2001, he slammed seventy-three home runs, shattering the single season record of seventy, established by Mark McGwire three seasons earlier. After that season, he inked a five-year, $90 million contract with the San Francisco Giants. Before those players, though, bench-pressed their way through the new millennium and earned millions, the Bash Brothers pioneered the movement during the 1980s. Silencing decades of tradition that insisted weight lifting did more harm than good for a player, both proved muscle could elevate them to superstardom. Bill Bathe, a former teammate in the minor leagues and major leagues, christened both as the forefathers of a new era that whirled through every level of baseball.

“They had a big impact on baseball,” said Bathe. “They had a huge affect on high school and college players who wanted to emulate them during that era.”

Their trailblazing fame, however, didn’t only compel their peers to the weight room; it also translated on the field. From the time both barged into the major leagues to their retirement in 2001, home-run totals increased by thirty percent. Though one may blame that increase on the juiced balls, expansion teams’ watered-down pitching, and hitter-friendly stadiums, the Bash Brothers ignited that era. “They changed baseball,” said former A’s television broadcaster Greg Papa. “They brought the Incredible Hulk into baseball—that humongous player that thrived. They may have not been the very first [weight lifters] in the sport, but they were the most obviously noticed by the rest of baseball.”

Fans took notice, too. They crammed onto the left-field bleachers two hours before game-time to watch them take their ferocious cuts in the batting cage. When Canseco and McGwire strutted into the cage, players stopped stretching, reporters stopped writing.

Everyone watched. “They hit balls during batting practice like it was fucking Little League,” said Eckersley. “It was intimidating.” One by one, both hammered tape-measure home runs into uncharted territory, drawing standing ovations from fans. Such a spectacle overshadowed the game itself. Perhaps no other duo commanded such silence.

“Back to back, they hit eleven hundred feet worth of home runs on two pitches in one inning in Detroit,” marveled former batting coach Bob Watson. “As a hitting coach, you shake your head and say, ‘my goodness.’”

That the San Francisco Bay Area boasted such a celebrated duo seemed appropriate. Across the Bay, San Francisco 49ers quarterback Joe Montana heaved his way into Bay Area hearts. His accomplice, legendary wide receiver Jerry Rice, thrilled millions by slanting and snatching down field. The duo fueled the 49ers to four Super Bowl Championships. But it was the 1980s that ushered in other greats: A tongue-hanging Michael Jordon of the Chicago Bulls electrified auditoriums by demonstrating mind-blowing slam-dunks; the twenty-year-old Iron Mike Tyson invaded boxing rings and ferociously roughed up opponents, becoming the youngest heavyweight champion ever; and hockey icon Wayne Gretzky scored his way to superstardom.

In Oakland, Canseco and McGwire climbed through the minor leagues and entertained players and fans by slamming head-scratching, game-swaying home runs. “You will probably never have two of the more dominating players together coming up like that again,” said Dave Wilder, the senior director of player personnel for the Chicago White Sox.

But encountering superstardom, flaunting beefcake physiques, and muscling the Oakland Athletics to three straight World Series appearances, including a championship in 1989, can lead to a colorful lifestyle. Away from the stadium, the spending sprees, fast cars, and provocative woman awaited Canseco and McGwire. At the venue, relentless reporters and adoring fans hounded them.

“They were not very easy guys to deal with,” said former baseball commissioner Fay Vincent. “Neither one of them were very friendly to me. I would see them on the field and they were kind of distant. Maybe they were a little concerned, I don’t know. They weren’t very outgoing. Maybe they were worried; they knew they weren’t doing things terribly right.”

Yet, despite their fame echoing through stadiums across the country, there couldn’t have been a more opposite pair of teammates. Canseco, a Miami-groomed maverick, relished the spotlight, while McGwire, a reserved, all-American athlete, shunned it. Teammates they were; brothers they were not. “They were two different people and hung out with two different crowds,” said Dave McKay. “They didn’t have a lot in common other than playing on the same team. They certainly weren’t workout partners. Absolutely not.”

But even contradicting personalities, shocking allegations, and a stomach-turning breakup before Congress couldn’t rip their names apart. Their names will forever be traced to an era when power and an obsession for greatness doctored the game. “They revolutionized the game,” said FOX Sports International baseball analyst José Tolentino, who played with both in the A’s minor league system.

Yet, to some, the Bash Brothers foreshadowed baseball’s fate. What Canseco and McGwire provided for the A’s in the 1980s and ’90s is what performance-enhancing drugs provided for baseball after the 1994 strike that canceled the Fall Classic; they revived sluggish fan interest and resurrected a frail institution into a thriving empire. “They were the face of our franchise,” said Sandy Alderson, the former general manager of the Oakland A’s. Meet the Bash Brothers.

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An interesting read, but . . .

. . . it “defanately” needs to be proofread. “Affect”, “home-run”, “onto the bleachers”, “provocative woman” (unless it was only one-and the same one, at that-which I kinda sorta doubt) are just some examples that come to mind. This may be a rough draft but I always appreciate it when people help out w/ edits.

"Life without geometry has no point"

by camperdog on May 19, 2008 7:49 AM PDT   0 recs

yeah, those might be writerly foul balls, but...

Michael Jordon?

(He’s at the track, he’s at the wall, he’s gonna watch: it’s a home run of a celebrity typo.)

don't care if i ever get back.

by AV on May 19, 2008 9:57 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

One of the reasons I want this team to win it all

Other than the obvious elements that go into a fan’s devotion, of course, is to counter this legacy.

The sad truth is—Barry Bonds or no Barry Bonds—that the A’s have been tarnished by steroids more than any other franchise—deservedly so. Our “under the radar” status probably is a good thing, or the publicity would be merciless.

Can you imagine what the Yankees or Red Sox would be dealing with if it was known that two of their biggest stars from a past championship were almost certainly on the juice—that one of them was the Pied Piper of this drug in the sport—and that the two MVPs since that time were also juiced?

This is one where we have to strap on the reality and come to terms with the fact that history may deem that the most memorable aspect of the Alderson-Beane era may not be OBP, or not selling jeans, or Moneyball itself, but in fact the pernicious influence of steroids. Without the juice does this team win in 2000-2003? We’ll never know, and it’s easy to say “well, everyone was doing it”. But everyone didn’t have a guy suddenly emerge as the best hitter in the game, only to fall off to mediocrity ever since; everyone didn’t have a guy who lied about his age and almost certainly rode steroids into near superstardom. Plus who knows else. Steroids would seem to be as much a part of the A’s culture from 1988-2002/3 as getting on base.

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 8:15 AM PDT   0 recs

Which guy

suddenly emerged as the best hitter in the game, only to fall off to mediocrity ever since?

Tejada fudged his age? So have a whole bunch of players from Latin America. Hell go back 50-75 years, and you’ll likely find American born players who fudged their ages. Also, Tejada’s real age was on all his official documents.

Without the “juice” do the Yankees win the WS in 1999 and 2000? The Yankees had Roger Clemens. There a few stars bigger than him. How the Yankees would be dealing with the “merciless publicity” need not be imagined. They have dealt with it fine.

“Plus who knows else. Steroids would seem to be as much a part of the A’s culture from 1988-2002/3 as getting on base.”

You can say this about the whole of baseball. Who knows who else used steroids? Hell, who knows who else used banned performance enhancing substances like amphetamine? Should Brewers fans regret, be embarrassed, by winning the WS in 1957 with Hank Aaron?

You remind me of Giants fans who have turned on Barry Bonds now that he’s no longer putting up crazy numbers for them.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 19, 2008 9:40 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"You remind me of Giants fans who have turned on Barry Bonds now that he’s no longer putting up crazy numbers for them."

What’s funny is that a lot of us couldn’t really care less about Bonds/steroids/whatever anymore, because let’s face it: It’s probably fairly likely that more players were using PEDs than not. Now Giants fans want to be all high and mighty and anti-roids, but they’re a couple years late to the party.

by mikev on May 19, 2008 9:46 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

OK, you want answers

1) Jason Giambi was, IMHO, the best hitter in baseball from midseason 1999 through the end of the 2001 season. He won the 2000 MVP and probably should have won it in 2001 as well. He has been a mediocre hitter pretty much ever since. And he is an admitted steroid user. It is pretty simple to connect the dots between his steroid use and that of his mentor and close buddy—Mark McGwire.

2) Miguel Tejada not only fudged his age. He lied under oath about steroids and may yet face criminal prosecution.

3) These were the two most vital position players on the A’s team from 2000-2003—both played here in 2000-01; tejada in 2002-03. As i said, the won the MVP in 2 of those 4 years and it should have been 3.

4) Does anyone truly believe that the A’s steroid users were limited to just those two players, given Adam Piatt’s testimony and the linkage of Randy Velarde to PED use.

If one makes a list of the most noteworthy suspected or actual steroid users of this era, it would include the following:

Jose Canseco
mark McGwire
Ken Caminiti
Sammy Sosa
Jason Giambi
Miguel Tejada
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Rafael Palmeiro
Juan Gonzalez

Of those 10, 4 enjoyed their greatest success as an A. Two others seem to have had their steroid use linked to two of the A’s—Canseco and Tejada—either as suppliers, or motivators or perhaps both.

Then a whole host people including Troy Glaus, Eric Gagne, Bret Boone, Pudge Rodriguez, etc…

of course it infected the entire sport but to deny the A’s place at the top of the ugly hierarchy is to be like an ostrich.

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 10:05 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

to be fair

tejada may not have been under oath when he lied/dissembled/misremembered about steroids. But he has been named as a potential target of the FBI investigation.

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 10:14 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Jason Giambi's year by year OPS+

from 1999-2008: 153, 187, 198, 172, 148, 90, 161, 148, 108, 125.

From 2000-2002, not 2001, he was a phenomenally good hitter. He’s not been as good in other years, but that doesn’t mean that he’s been “mediocre” outside of those years. Unless you’re using a completely different definition of “mediocre” than I am. In 2003, 2005, 2006, he was a very good, even great hitter, with OPS+ of 148, 161, 148. A 4 year stretch, from 2003-2006 of OPS+ of 148, 161, 90, 148. For comparison Manny, definitely not considered a mediocre hitter by anyone, 160, 152, 153, 165.

Jason Giambi, has been mediocre, injured, immobile, since 2007, at age 36, not 2001, hardly a surprising occurrence.

I’m aware that Tejada is under FBI investigation; my point is that his fudging his age is nothing new, nothing special, and is something that many other players have done over many years. And again, his real age was on all his official documents.

As for MVPs that “should” have been won, many fans of many teams will argue back and forth of who “should” have won an MVP.

“4) Does anyone truly believe that the A’s steroid users were limited to just those two players, given Adam Piatt’s testimony and the linkage of Randy Velarde to PED use.”

The same, of course, can be said of any MLB team.

If one makes a list of the most noteworthy suspected or actual steroid users of this era, it would include the following:

Jose Canseco
mark McGwire
Ken Caminiti
Sammy Sosa
Jason Giambi
Miguel Tejada
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Rafael Palmeiro
Juan Gonzalez

Of those 10, 4 enjoyed their greatest success as an A. Two others seem to have had their steroid use linked to two of the A’s—Canseco and Tejada—either as suppliers, or motivators or perhaps both.

Then a whole host people including Troy Glaus, Eric Gagne, Bret Boone, Pudge Rodriguez, etc…

The problem here is that you’re only focusing on notable players. Mike Morse of the Mariners actually TESTED POSITIVE, for Nandrolone Decanoate IIRC. Rafael Betancourt, of the Indians, actually TESTED POSITIVE. Ryan Franklin of the Mariners. Those are just a few examples of non notable players who actually tested positive.

“of course it infected the entire sport but to deny the A’s place at the top of the ugly hierarchy is to be like an ostrich.”

Why assume that the use of banned substances was most prevalent on the A’s? Why assume that it was only prevalent from 1988-2002/3? Athletes have been looking for a competitive edge, for a way to “cheat” since the first caveman tried to use foot wrappings in the first foot race. And why assume that players no longer used banned substances?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 19, 2008 11:05 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And Clemens

was nowhere near the “biggest star” on the yankee teams in 1999-2000. Maybe not even in the top 5. He receives 26 Win shares over those two years.

Jeter got 58
Williams 59
Posada 39
Martinez 31
Knoblauch 35
Rivera 33
O’Neill 29

Clemens was 8th

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 10:11 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Clemens, in terms of contribution

in 1999-2000 might not have been the biggest star. In terms of how he is regarded by fans and the press, and the fact that he used to pitch for the RS before joining the Yanks, there are few names bigger than him. Would you say that fans consider Knoblauch a bigger star than Roger Clemens?

In 2000, Clemens was the Yankees best starting pitcher, 204.3 IP of 130 ERA+ ball. And while he wasn’t anything special in 199, he still gave them 187.7 IP of 103 ERA+ ball. And of course, there is the postseason:

He was disastrously bad in one start, 2 IP, in 1999 in the ALCS vs the RS, and also in 2 starts in 2000 in the ALDS vs the A’s, 11IP. In 3 other starts, 24IP, in 1999-2000 in the postseason, he held opponents scoreless, including a complete game shutout of the Mariners in the 2000 ALCS. In one other start in 1999 in the WS against the Braves, he had a 1.17 ERA in 7.2IP.

Take away his performances in the postseason, and there’s a reasonable probability that the Yankees don’t win a WS.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 19, 2008 11:24 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Pretty Darn Selective Reasoning, Folks

1. The popular name of the 1988-1992 (until July 30 or whenever it was that Canseco got dealt—and I include that knowing that you’re a nit picker!!) Oakland A’s team was, as the title of this thread indicates, the Bash Brothers. Not Henderson’s Heroes; Stew’s Starers, or Tony’s Troops. They were the embodiment of the team—and it was their disproportionate size—compared to the rest of the sport—that first opened eyes and helped make them so memorable. We now know where that size came from, though many at the time voiced suspicions (most notably Tom Boswell of the Washington Post). To compare Roger Clemens’ role with the Yankees in 1999-2000—a team that had already won two WS titles before he ever showed up and was best represented by the likes of Jeter, Williams, Rivera, Posada and O’Neill—to that of the Bash Brothers is like comparing Neptune to Jupiter—they are both planets, but one is quite out of proportion to the other. He was never close to being the heart and soul of that team ior their best player—Giambi and Tejada were, along with possibly Hudson, clearly the heart and soul of the 1999-2003 A’s, and their best players;

2. Giambi—I take it you weren’t around or paying close attention in 1999. After being taken to the proverbial woodshed by buddy/mentor McGwire in an in-season discussion (obviously over the phone since I do not believe the A’s played the Cardinals that year, though maybe it occurred at the AS break-someone will find out if I’m right or wrong about that), giambi’s numbers took off essentially after the All-Star break. That was where he first gained the level he would then duplicate in 2000 and 2001. To make it more accurate- and since his use of steroids is not in dispute I’m not sure what point you were trying to make by quibbling here—he never returned to that level after he left here—alternating between very good and mediocre seasons with the Yankees, and lately more toward the lower end of that scale.

3. as to steroid use, who knows what can be said about “every major league team”- we’ll probably never know. But we are sort of the center of this universe to keep the celestial metaphor going. When the team you care about the most has the guy who may have committed the Original Sin, another guy who has become one of the game’s two or three biggest pariahs, and then two other guys whose record has been dramatically tarnished by their involvement with this drug- you had better do some “facing the music”. In that context your carping about fans and MVPs is a non-sequitur—point is, the two guys who gave the first great A’s team its moniker have been tarnished by PEDS’ and the two guys who won MVPs for the second great A’s team in this era have been tarnished by PEDs. what more disgrace do you want? And who among us can say, with any certainty, that the use of PEDs, given the proximity to BALCO and the organization’s emphasis on power and on-base percentage, permeated the A’s culture more than most, and possibly, all, other franchises? I certainly think that is not an unreasonable view to hold—certainly more reasonable than the ostrich-like behavior I described and which you seem to be demonstrating.

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 12:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The Precise Giambi numbers

Pre- AS break 1999 OPS 856 OPS+ 119
Post AS Break 1999 OPS 1108 OPS+185

Like I said—best hitter in the game from ”:midseason 1999 to the end of 2001”.

OK?? He declined in 2002—not by a lot. and then has been uneven and trending downward ever since—never again reaching the 1999-2001 peak.

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 12:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Giambi not being as good

as he was, is different from “He has been a mediocre hitter pretty much ever since.”

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 19, 2008 1:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Look at any hitter in MLB history.

You’ll find a whole bunch of guys who had a peak of 2-3 years, and then were not as good as they were.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 19, 2008 1:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

OK, you're blind to this

Like i said, you’ve chosen to nitpick a non-essential point.

Cut to the chase: Do you really believe Giambi did not use PEDs as an A—and that his regression since ( which BTW is pretty damn unique—I bet you’ll have a hard time finding many players who reached the type of peak over a 3-4 year period that Giambi did from the ages of 28-31, and then crashed and burned so badly by 35? And certainly very few in this modern age of big salaries and huge off-season conditioning emphasis—and i don’t mean just steroids-) but that his regression since has nothing to do with him now being off the juice or, at the least, dealing with physical problems caused by the juice?

because if you do, I’ve got some land in Florida…

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 1:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Mo Vaughn.

stat-addled alien overlord

by salb918 on May 19, 2008 1:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

David Justice, kinda.

stat-addled alien overlord

by salb918 on May 19, 2008 1:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Cecil Fielder

stat-addled alien overlord

by salb918 on May 19, 2008 1:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Albert Belle

stat-addled alien overlord

by salb918 on May 19, 2008 1:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Tim Salmon

stat-addled alien overlord

by salb918 on May 19, 2008 1:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Bernie Williams

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on May 19, 2008 2:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Carlos Delgado

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on May 19, 2008 2:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ken Griffey, Jr.

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on May 19, 2008 2:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Juan Gonzalez

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on May 19, 2008 2:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ivan Rodriguez

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on May 19, 2008 2:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Paul O'Neill

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on May 19, 2008 2:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Todd Helton (any minute, now)

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on May 19, 2008 2:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Andruw Jones

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on May 19, 2008 2:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Jim Edmonds

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on May 19, 2008 2:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Jose Vidro

Richie Sexson
Frank Thomas

stat-addled alien overlord

by salb918 on May 19, 2008 2:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sammy Sosa

stat-addled alien overlord

by salb918 on May 19, 2008 2:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Please stop.

You made your point like six posts ago. Now you’re just giving me a headache.

by 74mk on May 19, 2008 2:12 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sorry.

stat-addled alien overlord

by salb918 on May 19, 2008 2:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

not Frank

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on May 19, 2008 2:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

These are all ridiculously bad comparisons!!

Again—find me anyone—anyone-in recent years- who reach as exalted a peak as Giambi did from age 28-31, basically, and then gradually tumbled down to mediocrity. None of these examples come remotely close

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 2:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

They all reached exalted peaks

during that range and then tumbled down to mediocrity at similar ages… all of these guys did exactly that.

Is your point that they weren’t as good as Giambi at their peaks? Well, basically no one but Bonds was as good as Giambi in those years recently. So…....... you define your category so that it can only possibly include 2 players, and then talk about how he’s unique? haha

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on May 19, 2008 2:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

it's not worth doing the case by case

but basically none of them are particularly close to the Giambi model. Their peaks either weren’t anywhere near as high—aso their fall hasn’t been as dramatic—or lasted much longer, or were basically a career year.

but it’s all nuts to begin with—does anyone doubt that the Giambi career is a career that has been profoundly affected—for better and worse—by steroids? i mean come on!!!

And the point about Giambi being in a special category more akin to Bonds was the fundamental point I was making from the getgo—we as A’s fan have a big burden to bear here—and we’re deceiving ourselves to think it doesn’t exist.

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 2:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Pretty much every single one of those guys

has had a more “dramatic fall” than Giambi has had.

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on May 19, 2008 2:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

oh God

the guy is hitting under the Mendoza line—and he used to be the best hitter in the league. And you think a fall of every single one of those guys is “worse”??

I have land not only in Florida, but the Brooklyn Bridge, an island in the Pacific…

OK—he hasn’t retired yet—I’ll give you that. wait a year.

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 2:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

hmmm

how does $20 sound?

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on May 19, 2008 2:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The guy's OPS+ is 125

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 19, 2008 2:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You're 0-5

and in a slump, I guess!! None of these guys comes close to the Giambi model

justice i don’t even need to discuss—it’s so far off.

Fielder had one big year—his first—that didn’t approach any of Giambi’s peak performance (167 OPS+);

Belle was very good to great for nearly a decade—from age 25 to age 34—then suffered a debilitating injury and was out of the sport. Not anywhere near analagous to Giambi who had an amazing 3-4 year peak..

vaughn had 6 very good years—none of them anywhere near Giambi’s 3 year peak—and then 3 pretty good years—and then he was done.

Salmon had a mix of OK and very good years for most of his decade—but again came nowhere near Giambi.

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 2:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I meant

“didn’t permeate”

another way of looking at it—name One Single Franchise—one—that has had 4 players of this magnitude associated with steroids/PEDs.

The only other one that approaches it is Texas—if one assumes that Pudge was a user before he “slimmed down”- but the problem the A’s have with that comparison is that one of those names is Canseco- who used here first—and, if one can believe his own account—and the guy’s story has been pretty solid up until this point—he may have been the guy who turned those Rangers on to PEDs.

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 12:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

What does the magnitude of the player have to do with anything? It has

been hypothesized, that PED’s were used more for prevention/healing of injuries. If PED’s make players so much better, why have so many scrubs been caught. McGwire hit 49 HR’s his rookie year, and that was before his body changed, so he always had the superstar talent, and I don’t remember if Jose started before he made it to the majors, but he was ROY, and Giambi was good the years before he admitted he used. They all had the talent to become great players, we don’t know how much the PED’s helped. Even Bond’s was a HOF player before PED’s so the only thing there magnitude does, is put a bigger microscope on them because they were succesful, not the PED using nobodies.

by theblackpearl on May 19, 2008 12:38 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, how else do you explain an era

that lasted about a decade—maybe more, maybe less.

In which it became de rigeur for players to hit 40 HRs, where more players hit 50HRs than ahd done so in the previous 100 years, where several players hit 60 or more when only 2 had done it in the pervious 100 years, where two players even hit 70 HRs—and where now, after a very publicized change in testing policy and stiffening of penalties, HRs are way, way down—to levels from nearly 30 years past?

Oh, only the scrubs were using!!!

Do you honestly believe that this aberrant flood of power had nothing to do with performance-enhancing drugs?

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 12:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I've read that story before

And nearly every other thing on the subject. Bill James first planted the expansion seed back in the 1980s some time. Maris and Mantle took advantage of an expansion era.

sometimes you have to believe your own lying eyes, people. Players got huge in the 1990s and early part of this decade. Home runs went through the roof. Take expansion, Coors, the strike zone, and the baseballs out of the mix—and I believe that PEDs would still have contributed to a significant rise in power numbers.

And if nothing else doesn’t the presence of Bonds, McGwire and Sosa on top of the home run heap become very powerful circumstantial evidence to that effect?

Of course it does.

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 1:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Funny you mention that you've read that,

considering your entire comment reads like someone who didn’t read or didn’t understand that story.

stat-addled alien overlord

by salb918 on May 19, 2008 1:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

read it...

understand it…

disagree with its conclusion/hypothesis.

Key phrase in it: “small samples of 1998 MLB balls were tested”

Oh boy it’s a small sample size sighting!

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 1:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Hilarious
Judge: Mr. Hutz w’ve been in here for four hours. Do you have any evidence at all?
Hutz: Well, Your Honor. We’ve plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence.

link

stat-addled alien overlord

by salb918 on May 19, 2008 1:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

PLAYERS got huge

KEY WORD: PLAYERS. I repeat: PLAYERS. NOT SLUGGERS.

Why are you assuming that pitchers did not use performing enhancing substances?

Also, are you aware that the use of performance enhancing substances is also common in other sports? Including among speed and endurance athletes? What do your lying eyes tell you then?

And why are you ignoring amphetamines? Last I checked, they are also illegal.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 19, 2008 1:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

huh??

Track and field and cycling, to name a couple, have been virtually ruined by PEDS. Swimming has been tarnished numerous times (East germans, Chinese, Michelle Smith) by PEDs (I know of what I speak—I was an All-American swimmer—clean, mind you—in High School). And yes a bunch pf pitchers have used PEDs.

what’s your point?

Again the heart of this matter is really simple—was the explosion of HRs in the 1990s and early 2000s substantially affected by PEDs, or not?? And did the A’s not have more high-profile PED users than any other team?

If your answer to these questions is no, then what’s the point of continuing the discussion—but I am curious as to the thought process. It is kind of like the turle on the fence post—you didn’t see it get there, but somehow we know it didn’t do it on its own.

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 1:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

What's my point?

My point: ATHLETES CHEAT. ATHLETES IN ALL SPORTS, of a variety of bodytypes, in a variety of sports, CHEAT.

NOT JUST SLUGGERS. Am I clear enough?

Again the heart of this matter is really simple, to wit: why do you assume that only performance enhancing substances only enhance hitting, and not pitching, and not defense?

Why do you assume that Jose Reyes isn’t running fast, because he is using performance substances? Why do you assume that Torii Hunter has not used performance enhancing substances to enable him to perform his highlight reel home run robbing grabs?

Why are you ignoring amphetamines? Hank Aaron has admitted to using them.

I’m curious as to the thought process that somehow pretends that using amphetamines is not cheating. I’m curios as to the thought process that assumes that performance enhancing substances only increases the distance the ball is hit. And not how hard it is thrown. And not how fast players can run. And not how high players can jump.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 19, 2008 2:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

If you're equating Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds

and think we’re in a serious discussion, I can’t help you anymore. You’re further off in left field than Bonds.

by madmongoose on May 19, 2008 2:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So, it's only cheating

if you say so. Got it.

And I’m not equating Aaron to Bonds. But Aaron cheated too. Which is something all you steroid warriors seem to like to sweep away.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 19, 2008 2:34 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And why disregard

my other arguments? Roger Clemens cheated too, yes? He’s a pitcher. What do your lying eyes tell you?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 19, 2008 2:36 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well in earlier posts you are condemning the A's, now you are saying it was

the era. RFLOH was arguing against your pointing at the A’s more than the rest of baseball. If you are going to do that fine.

by theblackpearl on May 19, 2008 12:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs