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The Atlanta Braves, theTomahawk Chop, and prehistoric moneyball

 

I noticed that during the A’s-Braves series several AN posters have commented about the tomahawk chop and chant.  As a long-time Atlanta resident who recently moved to the  east bay, I am pretty immune to the chop, and hadn’t realized it still had the power to shock.  While I don’t have any socio- or psychological insight into the nature of the chop, I was there the night it got started, and thought some of you might be interested in the story. 

 

This tale actually intersects with a subject near and dear to AN readers, the emergence and spread of the statistical analysis of baseball. While the Bill James movement was struggling to achieve critical mass in the early 1980s, the lack of access to detailed and complete baseball statistics was a chronic and frustrating problem.  In typically direct fashion, James asked people through his annual publication to adopt a pitch by pitch scoring technique he had developed and mail him the scorecards.  By the late ‘80s, the amateur scorer network, of which I was a part, had produced enough data that it seemed possible to turn it into a business.

 

Around 1990 or so that business, STATS, Inc. scored its first big deal, a contract to provide information-rich box scores to _USA TODAY_.  Along with that deal came two perks for the scorers, a modest stipend for each game scored, and – far more exciting – a press box seat. Thus it was that on a late spring evening I was in the press box at the old Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium, when a haunting ululation was heard throughout the park.  It was deep in extra innings and the crowd had thinned out, so it was easy to hear, but hard to decipher. 

 

I though it might be some visiting Europeans doing a soccer chant, but it quickly turned out that it was actually some kids up from Florida State University, where fans of the football team, the Seminoles, had developed this cheer and its accompanying motion, a repeated, rhythmic first down signal, to root on their team.  It caught on like wildfire.  By the next night, the whole stadium had picked it up, and the red foam tomahawks ahowed up within a few days. Since it was the year when, after ten years of major suckage, the Braves emerged as the powerhouse they have been ever since, the whole became a civic phenomenon.  I don’t know if you have ever lived through a moment when an entire community becomes completely and nuttily obsessed with a sports team, but it’s really quite a phenomenon.

 

Of course the morally questionable valence of the chop was immediately apparent, but there was no stopping it.  Still, as the playoffs approached, I began to anticipate what I assumed was going to be a chop-related moment of truth, the return of team owner Ted Turner.  This was the era when Ted had moved beyond being a big shot in Atlanta, and had emerged as a national player.  Specifically, he was hanging around Hollywood, buying ranches, and had acquired an A-list fiancee, none other than Jane Fonda.  They were expected in Ted’s front-row box for the playoffs, and surely, I thought, Jane Fonda was not going to sit still for the chop!  The moment arrived, there she was - Hollywood royalty and friend of the oppressed, Jane Fonda herself. The chant broke out - Jane’s chance to take a stand, to yank off her enormous diamond, storm out, and show Ted and all the choppers just how she felt.  But…no.  She chopped.  Not enthusiastically, but she chopped.  So, anyway, I decided that if Jane Fonda could deal with it, I could deal with it.

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Nice post.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 18, 2008 8:07 AM PDT   0 recs

Are people really offended by this?

Thanks for the story Hot Cup, thats pretty interesting. Personally I don’t see any problem with chop at all. It’s not disrespectful or hurtful, it’s cool, and adds a fun atmosphere to an otherwise apathetic ATL crowd. There are a lot worse things for people to worry about in the world than a little cheer. What’s next, the Florida gator chomp being inappropriate because it symbolizes a gator eating someone/something?

What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.

by KMoAsFan on May 18, 2008 8:08 AM PDT   0 recs

Yes, people are offended by the chop

Because it’s part of the whole “Indian” imagery, which is a misappropriation of racial identity. The Atlanta team doesn’t get as much bad press as the Cleveland team because they don’t use a dumb cartoon as their logo, but they should. Both teams, in my opinion, need to change their names. Then all the “Indian” claptrap that goes along with the names can be dumped.

Good diary, BTW.

The candy and the baseball all night long :)

by Englishmajor on May 18, 2008 8:49 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah

its pretty bad.

by Future Ed on May 18, 2008 9:07 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

+10

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I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 18, 2008 10:24 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I went to the University of North Dakota

They are the UND Fighting Sioux. The logo was drawn by a native Sioux and fans don’t do any gimicky “indian” things. But, of course the PC crowd has invaded UND and now the NCAA says that UND must switch their nickname. UND sued the NCAA and all action is still pending.

In my opinion people need to concern themselves with real problems instead of what a pro-team of college uses as a nickname.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on May 18, 2008 8:00 PM PDT to parent up   1 recs

Stereotyping Lies at the Root of Many "Real" Problems

Here is a webpage devoted to discussing the particular problems with UND’s “Fighting Sioux” nickname.

Obviously these are complicated issues, but for me the bottom line is that Native Americans in general-and in the case of UND, the Lakota nation in particular-find these mascots deeply offensive.

Given centuries of genocidal treatment by European American and the U.S. government, those of us who are not Indians are not in a very good position to suggest that Native American critics “lighten up.”

Putting the "N" in "NRAF" from Leipzig, Germany!

by GreenNGoldSooner on May 19, 2008 3:51 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Hey Sooner

Thank you for your support. You’re sooo from OK. Which reminds me, you know the historical origin of “Sooner” right? I’m a member of an OK tribe that was screwed by allotment and the federal land-grab, from which homesteaders (and oilmen) benefited. I’m NOT blaming or anything, just acknowledging a historical reality. You’re right tough, it’s complicated.

I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 19, 2008 10:30 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Give me a break

The PC nonsense with the Indian names needs to go away, not the names. Marquette (a private University in Milwaukee) changed from the Warriors to Golden Eagles and it is/was a joke. Luckilly my high school kept its name, also the Warriors (a suburb outside of Milwaukee). The middle school for my city was named after the High School but changed to Bobcats during the PC hype of Indian names in the early 90’s. While I understand the name Redskins being offensive and the Indian cartoon can be offensive, the names Braves, Warriors, Chiefs and Indians are simply not offensive. Should Irish folks get up in arms about the fighting Irish? I’m sure someone without anything better to do is, but it doesn’t make it right.

I thought most of this went away in the 90’s sometime with the ridiculous lawsuits that accompanied it.

Let it go.

Gas to Chicago- $23.87 A's/White Sox Tix- $28 Watching the A's whipping the Sox in July 05'- Priceless

by WiscoFan on May 21, 2008 10:31 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

nice diary

I grew up rooting for the Mets. Then I went to University of Miami. So I have a well-developed distaste for the chop.

by phastphill on May 18, 2008 8:54 AM PDT   0 recs

Glad to know I'm not the only Atlantan to make my voice here

The whole “Native American” is on the same lines of modern society being recommended against using things like “Merry Christmas,” in favor of the more PC-widely accepted “Seasons Greetings.” The irony is that, in most cases, the people complaining aren’t even the people who would be offended. And it’s going too far, nowadays.

It’s not like people are called the “Scalpers” or the “Savage Hunters” or anything that negatively depicts Native Americans, but the Washington Redskins do come a little close in the NFL.

Personally, IMO, I think the people complaining should continue to voice their opinions, as we’re all entitled to them, but not give them the satisfaction of changing anything. Kinda like, the current names are grandfathered in, and prohibit the future use of anything possibly offensive.

Also, being a native Virginian, having gone to Virginia Tech, whose arch rivals were the Florida State Seminoles, who use the Tomahawk Chop as well; no matter how many Braves games I go to, I will not defy my alma mater, and do the chop.

real men, don't wear small.

by royhobbs on May 18, 2008 9:33 AM PDT   0 recs

Why merely have an "opinion"

when you can have an informed opinion? If you care enough to “voice” your opinion, you should care enough to feed it with a rich diet of fact and thought.
As Englishmajor said, Indian mascots are offensive in part because it’s a misappropriation of Native identities. Hello! Someone should tell the Seminoles that they are NOT plains Indians. It’s also offensive because it’s a “flattening” of the many tribe’s different, varied, rich ways of life. Indian people disagree about whether or not these mascots are offensive, which should tell you that Indian people are no more “Borg” than White people. The mascots are also offensive because they perpetuate racist stereotypes (yes, the “tomahawk” is a complex stereotype wrapped in an simple symbol) that so many have fought so hard to eradicate from baseball and life. No one corners the market on justice. We all have a stake in living in a more fair, more just, less racist society, therefor anyone who complains is also rightfully offended. But that’s just my informed and thoughtful opinion.
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I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 18, 2008 10:16 AM PDT to parent up   1 recs

Because neither will actually change anything, except maybe other people's thoughts.

Look, I’m not trying to perpetuate any negative encounters here. I get it, I’m the outsider, and our teams are playing against each other. So allow me my parting words, and I’ll let you all be.

I understand why people find it offensive, but they also need to realize that sports fan-dom eclipses several generations, the older ones whom could care less about the toes being stepped on in today’s opinions, as long as their beloved Cleveland Indians, or FSU Seminoles, etc. are still playing sports today.

To cave-in and change/eliminate teams/mascots would be economic suicide for these franchises. They will alienate older fans, and confuse the heck out of a lot of less-involved sports fans. The bottom line is that it is a risky business venture, and take a long time to recover and the only truly thing that would make a sports franchise dump their offensive name is if the opinions began to impact the profits. Our opinions exist, but they aren’t enough to where the FSU Seminoles are going to rebrand an entire college/culture, as long as alma mater from several decades, and fair-weather students/wannabes are pouring money out for FSU tickets/merchandise. Unless Cleveland fans become so offended that Jacobs Field turns into Dolphin Stadium suddenly, the Indians are going to remain the Indians.

The perfect example I have is when I was living in Washington DC, and the Washington Bullets (NBA) changed their name, because “Bullets” conveyed too much violence. When they changed to the “Wizards,” they made a lot of people unhappy. Older fans rescinded their season tickets, casual fans were upset that their Bullets jerseys were outdated, and nobody liked the team’s new identity, colors, and logo. To put it into further perspective, not even Michael Jordan making another comeback could save that franchise. He actually made it worse with his politicking. It wasn’t until a determined young player named Gilbert Arenas with a chip on his shoulder made people notice that Washington had a basketball franchise again by winning.

real men, don't wear small.

by royhobbs on May 18, 2008 11:29 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Right... exactly

it’s been financial suicide for the colleges who’ve gotten rid of their Indian mascots… Stanfurd in particular. Totally confused the alumni and they certainly don’t donate to their alma mater.

I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 18, 2008 11:56 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

wait...

So Stanford didn’t have to close its doors after switching their mascot? And the Wizards didn’t go out of business either? Hmm, yeah, that does sound like a couple of pretty unsuccessful suicide attempts.

And for someone to complain about fans having to buy new jerseys to go with the new mascot? Yeah, because most teams don’t revamp their logos every few years anyway for the exact same reason. It’s all about the benjamins.

by TempletonPeck on May 19, 2008 11:41 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

90% of suicide attempts are unsuccessful, right?

Perhaps changing mascots was really just a cry for help.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on May 19, 2008 11:45 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Marquette

Not to re-hash my above post but Marquette has lost alot of alumni donors due to their name change from Warriors to Golden Eagles. Its not something anyone can put a dollar on since its immeasurable but its pretty much common knowledge to any Marquette fan or alum.

Again, I’m surprised this is a soft spot for some folks. Does anything think team nicknames really have an influence on how people or things are portrayed? I mean, I’m sure now we all think Wizards just play basketball, Pistons are not part of an engine but a basketball reference, the city of Buffalo was named after Buffalo Bill, there are actual Raiders who live in Oakland (hey ancestors of Raiders, are you offended?) and there must be Jazz in Utah when we all know Utah doesn’t allow music (BASEketball reference).

The type of people who get offended by this stuff I will never understand. Guess I’m just a stubborn insenstive prick.

Gas to Chicago- $23.87 A's/White Sox Tix- $28 Watching the A's whipping the Sox in July 05'- Priceless

by WiscoFan on May 21, 2008 10:39 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Wait.

So you’re saying changing the name of your team is tantamount to economic suicide … unless you have good players? Should be no problem for Cleveland and Atlanta then, right?

Sifting through all the sophistry and incoherence in your posts is a bit of a chore, so I’ll just take issue with one particularly silly assertion, and leave the rest to fade quietly into the blogospheric abyss:

I lived in DC when the Bullets became the Wizards, and I can say without equivocation that fans did not flee in droves because their jerseys were suddenly outdated or the new team colors sucked.

Things that do not constitute evidence of name change-induced franchise disarray:

1. Conversations with your friends in which you all agree the new name is stupid
2. Disgruntled WTEM drive time callers

In fact, attendance went up in 97-98, the year of the name change, due mostly to the afterglow of the prior year playoff appearance and the opening of the Verizon Center. But that season was a massive disappointment, Webber was traded, the team returned to bottom-feeding status, and voilĂ , attendance sunk by 50% the following year. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the name change. It had everything to do with the product on the court and the yawning chasm between expectations and results.

Attendance and franchise value began to climb during the Jordan years, despite the team’s mediocre on-court performance. Perhaps you were distressed by his “politicking”, but lots (and lots and lots) of people bought game tickets and #23 Wizards jerseys.

Never has the arena been as consistently packed as it was during the two years Jordan played, but franchise value has continued to appreciate, and now stands at an all-time high. Boy, that name change really screwed Abe Polin over, didn’t it?

Links:

Attendance
Valuation

by 74mk on May 18, 2008 2:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

All this P.C

way of thinking is what is destroying this country. Why is it that so many people who are not even a part of the ethnic group thats being “stereotyped”, are more “offended” about it than the group itself? Everything is becoming so “sensitive” now days; people need to stop being self appointed policemen for “diversity”.

"I Will Not Relent, I Am Driven"... Clutch
Bring Back The Bash!!!

by Shippee33 on May 18, 2008 12:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

What makes you think I'm not a member of the group?

your assumptions are as impressive as your hyperbole about the country being destroyed.

I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 18, 2008 5:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh ok

So the whole blanket of liberalism that is sweeping over the country, is moving this country in a progressive, forward thinking direction? Its this liberal self hating attitude that has the United States looking like the Soviet union more and more every day. I bet your an Obama supporter as well….

"I Will Not Relent, I Am Driven"... Clutch
Bring Back The Bash!!!

by Shippee33 on May 19, 2008 6:39 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sorry

I’ve taken the oath to leave Presidential politics off of AN. It’s officially Banned as a topic.

I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 19, 2008 6:41 PM PDT to parent up   1 recs

This whole thread

is political, and its in the recommended diary section. Once you open up that can of worms, its not so easy to close it up.

"I Will Not Relent, I Am Driven"... Clutch
Bring Back The Bash!!!

by Shippee33 on May 19, 2008 6:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I disagree

It’s easy to discuss history generally and avoid contemporary presidential politics. If you ask me, 149 draws the line at exactly the right place.

formerly known as mdl

by iglew on May 19, 2008 6:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Here's what I want you to do:

1. Read through all the comments by GreenNGoldSooner, 149, PaulThomas, oaktownmario, rfloh, and iglew. (I know – lots of words and stuff, kind of painful, but humor me)

2. Read through your own contributions to this thread.

3. See if you can detect the difference in intellectual rigor.

4. Report back with your findings.

by 74mk on May 19, 2008 7:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I could have sworn

it was bears that were destroying the country, or possibly the bossa nova.

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on May 18, 2008 5:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

LOL

Bears… definitely Bears. Godless killing machines. Go Cal!

I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 18, 2008 5:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed.

Bears and the bossa nova are legitimate, orange level threats.

But if you ask me, it’s the overabundant scare quotes, misplaced commas, and missing apostrophes that ought to be keeping us up at night.

by 74mk on May 18, 2008 6:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

oh sure

Blame the Bossa Nova.

"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty

by 5Aces on May 19, 2008 10:35 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Good point

Royhobbs

"I Will Not Relent, I Am Driven"... Clutch
Bring Back The Bash!!!

by Shippee33 on May 18, 2008 12:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks for the nice comments and recs!

Just wanted to say that i didn’t mean to start an encounter session, just pass along some historical perspective. Re the comment about being offended by the florida gator, though, i really need to add a clarification. Hatred of the gators is like hatred for the Yankees or LAAA, richly merited not for some particular ethical quibble but on natural merit.

by Hot Cup Joe on May 18, 2008 10:46 AM PDT   0 recs

HCJ

I enjoyed your diary and the eye-witness account. Thank you.

I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 18, 2008 5:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

agreed

Gators are to be detested for the horrible abominations that they are.

by TempletonPeck on May 19, 2008 11:45 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

For the record.

The Braves did have an Indian logo that they stopped using soon after getting to Atlanta.

Not very offensive to me seeing as he’s laughing. It’s not like it depicts indians as savage uncivilized people.

What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.

by KMoAsFan on May 18, 2008 2:40 PM PDT   0 recs

"Chief Wahoo" is smiling too

You really think that makes a difference? I mean, given that people have taken time to explain just a few of the reasons why Indian mascots are offensive, and have provided you opportunities to learn more than your “gut instinct” might tell you about the issue, you really, honestly, thoughtfully, think that because the images aren’t depicting Indians as savages, that makes it OK. Seriously? Seriously.

I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 18, 2008 5:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Theres nothing offensive about an Indian.

Of course thats my opinion, but they are just people. My g/f’s grandfather is full blooded Cherokee Indian. She actually talked with him about this after we went to the Braves game this afternoon when I mentioned this topic. The word he used to describe being represented was “flattering.” Yankees, Rebels, 49ers, Raiders, Padres, Angels, Fighting Irish, Trojans, Spartans… Heck, why don’t we just do away with any team mascot or logo that involves some type of person? There is nothing disrespectful or controversial about any of those teams, including the Braves or Indians. THEY ARE ONLY MASCOTS. Besides what’s the only legacy left from native americans in this country, casinos? A sports team puts them in a positive light a heck of a lot more than a casino. It may even prompt kids who otherwise wouldn’t care, to seek out information on them, and learn about their past presence in this country. I know it did for me when I grew up in ATL,

People protesting Indians as mascots are probably the same ones holding up construction at the Cisco Field site, claiming there may be some endangered insect on land…

What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.

by KMoAsFan on May 18, 2008 7:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Endangered insects are more important than you realize.

But I digress.

“THEY ARE ONLY MASCOTS”

Does this mean you endorse any ethnic or racial caricature, so long as it’s, you know, just a mascot?

How about this:

Or this:

Acceptable mascots? Or do they go too far? I’m curious to know where you suggest we draw the line.

by 74mk on May 18, 2008 8:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think the distiction between the two

is the intent. Sports teams adopting mascots are certainly not intending to patronize or demonize the “group” they adopt. The symbols are adopted precisely because there are traits that the team seeks to emulate. Whether these are true or not, it’s certainly intended as being flattering. The cartoons you present were never intended to be flattering. Adopting the name “Braves”, “Indians”, etc. on the other hand are tributes to perceived admirable qualities.

By the way, should the Celtics change their name too?

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on May 18, 2008 9:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Are any Irish Americans offended by

the Celtics logo?

What qualities of Chief Wahoo are the Indians trying to emulate? The skill to grin idiotically?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 18, 2008 10:34 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I imagine at the time the logo was created....

there was a conscious effort not to associate the name “Indian” with the stereo types prevalent at the time. Hence a “non threatening” grinning symbol in lieu of a stalking warrior intent on destruction. There are plenty of American Indian groups who take no offense at the sports franchises use of Native American symbols. Native Americans are no more a monolithic ethnic group today than they were 200 years ago.

If you look hard enough, I’m certain you will find someone offended at the Celtic branding also. So back to square one….why look for insult where none is intended?

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on May 19, 2008 11:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I find this suspect
there was a conscious effort not to associate the name "Indian" with the stereo types prevalent at the time.

I’d love any support you can provide for your confidence. TY!

I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 19, 2008 11:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Alox's theory

sounded plausible to me, but evidence doesn’t seem to support it. The guy who drew the original Wahoo in 1946 (not the same as the current one) was interviewed* in 1999. He doesn’t say a lot, but it sure sounds like there wasn’t any sort of conscious thought about image. He just drew a cartoon and that was that.

By the way, the character of Chief Wahoo originated in a comic strip that later became Steve Roper, years before it was picked up by the Cleveland team.

Here he is:

/* SBN is balking at the link, due to an @ in the URL. The interview is at http://www.mail-archive.com/nativenews@mlists.net/msg02800.html

formerly known as mdl

by iglew on May 20, 2008 12:44 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It wouldn't make sense

in a business endeavor to start out by insulting a segment of your target audience. For all the wrong that has been intentionally / unintentionally inflicted on the American Indian peoples, they’ve also enjoyed a level of admiration and respect. So if the Cleveland franchise had an idea that the name was going to start a fight that would affect their bottom line, it only makes sense that they would choose another name.

I think it’s also worth mentioning that the Indian peoples, especially the Plains Indians, gave a pretty damn good accounting for themselves during the era of American expansionism. The whole thing about “atrocities” is that they work two ways. What happened to them as a people was, from a purely historical perspective, inevitable. When a divided nomadic people meet a united force with superior technology, the eventual outcome is rarely in doubt.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on May 20, 2008 10:30 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

please clarify

What was the “outcome” of which you speak? I’m not convinced of the “inevitability” of American Indians being presented as sports mascots.

The whole thing about "atrocities" is that they work two ways.
PT, OTMario, iglew and others have written at length about this idea and it’s effects later in this thread. I hope you enjoy their discussion as much as I did.
It wouldn’t make sense in a business endeavor to start out by insulting a segment of your target audience.
I very much appreciate that you think this, however, I’m afraid you are mistaken. It turns out, stereotypes (“positive” or “negative”) and racism are very profitable. So the argument affects their bottom line, if a positive way. I’ve posted some thoughts on this elsewhere in this thread. As you read down you’ll come across them. I’d value your response.

I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 20, 2008 10:38 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The outcome has to do with war.

Peoples who find themselves in the position I outlined aren’t destined to retain their sovereign state for long. It’s not that I agree with it….but what I think doesn’t matter. It goes to the nature of human kind. People with inferior resources will give way to people with superior resources at their disposal. The long view is that the only chance the Native population ever had was to unite at the beginning of colonization and drive the Europeans from the continent. Local politics made that impossible. Once Europeans had a firm toe hold on the continent….the outcome was never in doubt. Hell, the Aztecs were in a position militarily to make short work of the Spanish….but it didn’t happen. I realize that disease had a great deal to do with it, but still, Spain was thousands of miles away with poor supply lines. It could have been done. The Iriquois could have stopped English settlement, but by the time they realized what they were up against, and who their true enemies were, the die had already been cast.

Perhaps their is merit to the economic racism argument you have brought up. I’ll have to think that over for a while. By the way, you’ve represented yourself very well in this exchange. This is by far one of the better exchanges I’ve ever encountered in this forum. Enlightening to say the least!

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on May 20, 2008 11:15 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You're kind

to point out civility in a blog thread. It’s a shame that it’s rare enough to merit attention, isn’t it? OTOH, it only takes a couple of people to be thoughtful – or to be really snarky – and most of the thread follows suit either way.

I take some issue with characterizing American Indians as either extinguished, conquered, weaker, or losers in colonization. I’ve posted elsewhere about the contemporary reality of tribes and Indian people in the US, and hope I’m able to convey that tribes and Indian people are alive, thriving, contributing, and growing AS Indian people and as nations. Beware to declare “Mission Accomplished” too soon. :D If anything, that we are living together – Indians and Non-Indians – proves that the Indian way is actually winning the war. (But I can be a little overly optimistic - see also my unequivocal support of the 2007 A’s).

I haven’t yet said this, but I disagree in my mind, heart, and soul about this characterization of humanity. I realize my opinion stems from a different world-view and teachings. Nonetheless, I believe, despite actions of people to the contrary, that human nature is as benevolent as creation (God, The Universe—call it any name you like), of which humanity is both a part and whole.

I’ve argued “human nature” at length over the years with one of my best friends (a student of military and world history who has been convinced by the totality of the empirical evidence that humanity is by nature greedy, selfish, nasty, brutish, -etc). Our argument ended when he said, “Look, if I have and island and you have and Island, I’m going to want your island. I’m going to come over and kick your ass and take your island. That’s just human nature.” I replied, “The fact that I did not first covet your island, that I did not first come to your island and kick your ass, proves that it is NOT human nature. So quit excusing your nasty behavior by blaming human nature and own yourself. ” That’s been the last word for about five years now.

Really, it doesn’t take much to alter the tone of a thread, or to alter the course of human history: “just” a small change in worldview, the willingness to see empirical evidence differently, and an attendant adjustment in behavior.

I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 20, 2008 11:43 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Iroquois

The Iroquois did stop English (and Dutch) settlement, for about 150 years, by a combination of force and diplomacy. The fact that European expansion was blocked across a large region in the center long after it was open to the north and the south was a major factor in the shaping of our country (eg, why NY didn’t become a dominant colony until after 1800) and affected demographic patterns that last to this day (eg, why the Scots-Irish immigration was channeled down the Shenandoah Valley and not up the Mohawk).

The traditional look at American history tends to leap from 1620 to 1756 with barely a glance at the formative period between. As a result we Americans often overlook just how long the colonies lived side by side with the Iroquois. A century and a half of prosperity (not even counting the time before the Europeans arrived) is no small achievement. Plenty of successful states in Europe lasted no longer.

A number of factors went into the eventual decline of the Iroquois state, but I would not count not realizing what they were up against or who their true enemies were among them.

formerly known as mdl

by iglew on May 20, 2008 12:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The economic argument against racism

has never really carried much weight with me. Certainly it’s true that under most circumstances, it is more efficient to not be racist. On the surface, segregating rail cars will lead to more unsold seats than unsegregated cars, because sometimes one will sell out while the other has empties. (This is, for anyone wondering why I picked this industry, the Plessy v. Ferguson situation.)

But if the consumer base wants racism, it’s quite possible that the negative impact on sales of segregating the cars would be less than the negative impact of NOT segregating the cars.

Segregation in the economic context is just a particularly vile form of market segmentation. You aren’t selling baseball tickets to the public at large, you’re selling them to Cleveland residents of some affluence with disposable income and leisure time. If that group happens to be disproportionately composed of racists, it can definitely make economic sense to sell them racism.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on May 20, 2008 10:55 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

racism sells AND people are willing to pay to preserve it

I like the Plessy example. Very nice. It goes to show that, if the means are there, many people will pay to preserve their place at the top of the racial hierarchy. Consider also “red-lining” “white flight” and more recently, “gentrification.”

For the same reasons, I think racism sells and thus cannot be written off as merely market segmentation. It’s also market maximization. In the example of Chief Wahoo, the symbol allows people to buy a sense of Indian inferiority; ugly, stupid, and dead (Cuz the only “good” Indian is a dead Indian - the living, breathing, complicated Indians who continue to fight for their own economic and social places in the larger nation are almost never the “good” Indians. As an Indian you’re either “dead” or “bad”). Correlatively, presumed Indian inferiority is also non-Indian superiority. Superiority is what I think people are buying when they buy the mascot. By buying Indian inferiority, they’re buying a sense of superiority (and we’re not talking baseball superiority here - I mean, it’s Cleveland!). I think too, they are buying “dead Indian” bravery and ascribed “positive” stereotypes, and claiming these positive attributes for themselves (and their team), while leaving the dead Indian ugly, stupid, and inferior.

I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 20, 2008 11:16 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Hard to argue with that

People have been buying “dead Indian” for centuries… literally, in some cases.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on May 20, 2008 11:46 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

LOL!

My grandmother says, “There are three kinds of funny. There’s “Haha” funny. There’s “peculiar” funny. And there’s “If you don’t laugh, you’ll cry” funny.”

I think your comment is all three!

I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 20, 2008 11:54 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Another funny thing about Chief Wahoo

By all accounts Louis Sockalexis was considered a very attractive man—notions of “exoticism” and “otherness” notwithstanding. (Perhaps the Jacoby Ellsbury of his day.) I like what Johnny Bench (also Indian) had to say on this topic, “I’ve seldom seen a horny player walk into a bar and not let out exactly what he did for a living.” On the other hand, women are to ballplayers as flies to shit, so who knows how attractive he really was. Nevertheless, Lou was quite the ladies’ man and caroused at Babe Ruthian levels.

At any rate, it’s incredibly paradoxical to me that people will perpetuate the story that the team from Cleveland was named for Sock, and yet still have such a F-ugly mascot.

I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.

by 149 on May 20, 2008 1:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I doubt anyone will read this

But I lived in Cleveland for awhile, and that “story” was proven false. There had been teams with the Indians name prior to Sock showing up.

by ozzman99 on May 23, 2008 1:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Of course we're still reading.

I’m sure 149 will be back, too. This thread will never die.

Quite a bit of discussion and documentation on the question of whether the team was named for Sockalexis here.

formerly known as mdl

by iglew on May 23, 2008 2:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

If you look hard enough, I'm certain you will find someone

offended at the A’s too.

Is there a group of Irish Americans offended by the Celtics logo? Are they campaigning to have it changed because they are offended?

You might be correct that the motives behind the logo choice were noble. I can accept that. But, now, the connotations associated with the logo have changed, as society has changed. Why can’t the Indians change the logo too?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 19, 2008 11:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I know several people who are offended at

the pronunciation of “Celtics” by the Boston team….

formerly known as mdl

by iglew on May 20, 2008 12:08 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I know a LOT of people

who are offended by the pronunciation of many English words in Boston..

"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL

by oblique on May 20, 2008 8:22 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"It's not Chow-dare, it's Chow-dah!"

"You have to have a catcher or you'll have all passed balls."- Casey Stengel

by Gaijin_Suketto on May 20, 2008 2:01 PM PDT