No Reason to Panic.
Ok, there is no denying Cust and Thomas have been disappointing so far. I don’t feel like justifying that observation as I’ve done it in like 10 other threads, but basically Cust has shown no power, very little ability to hit fastballs, and does nothing consistently besides walk and take pitches right over the middle. Thomas is getting old, and while making contact he is not a guy who benefits or helps a team with singles. To help this team out he needs to hit for power, a .220 average is not difficult to replace. The singles should be reserved for Ellis, Sweeney, Davis, Barton, or whoever hits in front of Thomas. HE DIDN’T GET THE NAME THE “BIG HURT” FOR DRAWING WALKS AND HITTING BLOOPERS. Yes, I know he has a decent OBP, but the walks that inflate it are not as valuable as those extra base hits with guys on in front of him (that is, if there is an occasional A on base).
Now before the season, I think Billy had a little bit better hunch that this team would be successful than he led on to. It wasn’t going to be that hard to top the offense last year, or for the last few years for that matter. It’s not like Kendall, Kotsay, Stewart, Scutaro, Swisher, and Johnson were tearing up the league; plus having BoCro healthy would help as well. The addition of Thomas was a great idea given the teams fast start, but if the team begins to peter out here over the next few weeks I could see a total revamp of the outfield coming up. Ironically this team’s success over the next couple weeks will probably correlate heavily to whether Thomas and Cust start doing what they are on the roster for, hit for CONSISTENT power. If they don’t I’d be willing to bet Davis, Thomas, and Cust will be the first to go in favor of a younger core and starting outfield of RSweeney/Denorfia, CarGon, and Buck. If the team still continues to struggle, and Barton and Suzuki are showing no signs of improvement then it's likely that Brown and MSweeney will probably be gone as well. At that point the front office can go back to saying it was a rebuilding year, and no one outside of Athletics Nation will even really notice. It's not all bad though...
I'll be the first to say I’ve been a little more antsy with my critiquing of Cust and Thomas lately. Mainly because living on the east coast, I wanted to see one of the more exciting guys in Buck and CarGon get called up for the ATL series b/c I’m not sure when I’ll get to see this team play again. Plus, the one time I did see Buck was the July 24th game in Anaheim last year, where he absolutely dominated. The thing to keep in mind is that guys like Barton, Buck, Hannahan, and Suzuki are supposed to struggle. They are all going to have tough stretches this early in their careers. Just look at how the god of all rookies, Evan Longoria, has been faring as of late. The things to not accept or try and justify are the guys who are supposed to be performing consistently, but actually playing like rookies. There is no justification for what Cust and Thomas are doing right now, they have been flat out terrible. Hopefully they come out of it, and play to their abilities, but if not…well, the team will still be ahead of where everyone thought they would be, and we’ll get to watch some young guys bust their butts and have a lot of fun.
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43 comments
Comments
You lose...
Don’t panic Mr Mannering! :)
by mrfox on May 16, 2008 6:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dad's army has crossed the pond, eh?
So you’re not totally culturally inept then? ;)
by OldhamA on May 16, 2008 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not quite...
...I’m just a British A’s fan living down the road from you in West Yorkshire!
Does this mean I’m disqualified? ;)
by mrfox on May 17, 2008 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Cust or Thomas have been flat out terrible...
this year. And, I think both of them will hit for power.
Even my boy, Daric, will come around as the weather heats up. Trust.
Zooks needs more days off. Bowen needs to play, at least, once a week.
Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb
by FoolshGame22 on May 16, 2008 2:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed about Kurt
And if for some reason Geren is going all Macha/Melhuse on Bowen lets bring up Powell.
by HRH on May 16, 2008 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love
for them to bring up Powell as i have been an advocate of his for awhile, but bringing him up now would be a complete waste if he’s destined to do nothing but ride the pine. Atleast he is still getting at-bats and furthering his development down in the minors. I would have a much harder time accepting Powell wasting away on the bench than Bowen. In other words, don’t bring him up unless you’re actually going to use him.
"Put some ice on it. After that, there's nothing a few beers won't take care of. " -Pink
by OrlandoAsFan on May 16, 2008 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, blame the best hitters
For qualifying batters, Cust is 3rd in the AL in OBP, 10th in RC/9, 8th in GPA, etc. So far this year, he has been one of the top 10 hitters in the AL. I’m not sure how that qualifies as a ‘disappointment’.
Since coming from Toronto, Thomas has had a .397 OBP and the 4th best GPA on the team for those with 80 PA. Sure, he could be doing better, but he’s a scrap-heap pickup providing above average offense.
For those who like ‘clutchiness’, Cust and Thomas are 1st and 3rd respectively on the A’s in WPA with .76 and .17 (with Hannahan 2nd at .47). Obviously, those are not great WPAs for your top 3 contributers, but these are the hitters who’ve contributed most to winning so far.
In terms of scoring runs and winning games, a team needs ‘good’ hitters, regardless of type of hitter. Theres not much evidence that having a balance of power hitters, slap hitters, gap hitters, high OBP guys, etc. scores more runs than an ‘unbalanced’ offense of same overall quality.
by aang on May 16, 2008 10:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thomas
might be one of the better hitters on the team. Yes, But, he HAS TO BE. He has NO defensive and positional value. At all. Cust can at least play a position. Thomas has negative baserunning value. Even though he’s a minimum wage pickup, there’s still the issue of roster flexibility, and having a bunch of 1b / DH types with little or no defensive and positional cluttering up the roster.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on May 16, 2008 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you serious?
How can you come to any conclusion that Cust is one of the top 10 best hitters in the league? I’m not sure it’s even worth replying to. I don’t know what metrics you are using for that, but Cust only has 27 hits, 4HR, and 12 RBI’s. Oh, and did I mention that he is hitting under .250. Saying he’s one of the top 10 hitters in the league is downright ludicrous.
This is more of a personal opinion, but a stat like WPA is pretty much useless. Brown has double the RBI’s, more runs, and almost double the hits of Cust, and he has a lower WPA??? How is win probability even measured? It seems to me like a contrived stat, that is not based strictly off a single result, like hits/ab’s.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
by KMoAsFan on May 16, 2008 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jack Cust makes an out 57% of the time. Emil Brown makes an out 70% of the time.
That is virtually the only thing you need to know about the two of them as hitters. It is very nearly impossible for Brown to be a better hitter than Cust for that reason.
I can actually explain how WPA is generated if you would like. Would you?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 16, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes,
Please explain WPA to me.
by passionately objective on May 16, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The most basic and easiest to use model of WPA
is where you assume lineups filled with average hitters. (Someone correct me if I’m wrong here, but I believe this is what fangraphs uses.) So at the start of every game, you go in figuring the odds of winning are 50-50.
Now—your average hitter will hit something like (this is very roughly accurate but only very roughly, don’t taze me) 17% singles, 4% doubles, 0.5% triples, 2.5% home runs, 9% walks/HBP, and 66% outs. Each of those scenarios creates a new situation—whether it be a runner on first with no outs, no runners on and 1 out, or no runners on, no outs, and a 1-0 score.
Then the next batter comes up. Things can get a little more complex here because there are more possible outcomes (example: a single with a runner on 2nd can create a 1st and 3rd situation, or score a run and leave a man on first) but there’s still a certain percentage of the time that each of those things will happen, which you can then multiply by the probability of them happening the first time around to get the probability of two particular events happening in conjunction. For instance, .66*.66 of the time, the first two hitters will make outs.
You can string these probabilities (called Markov chains) together until eventually you’ve got a whole baseball game played out and someone has won and lost. And because every hitter is an independent event, you don’t have to start from scratch. You can start also from the bottom of the ninth with the road team up by three, and keep sending up fictional average hitters until one side wins or loses. Do that a million times and you’ve got a pretty good idea of how often the home team will win.
Now suppose you do this and find out that the home team wins 4% of the time in that scenario. Then you try it again with one out already recorded in the inning, and find that the home team only wins 1% of the time. You can say then that making that first out lowered the home team’s win probability by 3%—or a -0.03 Win Probability Added. On the other hand, say the first batter singles. Now you play out another million fictional games and find the home team wins 10% of the time. So that’s a +0.06 Win Probability Added.
Well, someone actually did this—went through each of the 24 base/out situations (8 base situations times 3 out situations), in each of the 18 half-innings, with each of the possible scores (ok, to a point; I doubt someone calculated WP for a 15 run lead) and ran those average hitters through from that situation to game’s end a zillion times to figure out how often each team won. Figure out how often the batting team wins before the batter hits; then figure out how often it wins after whatever happened when he hit; then subtract the first from the second and you’ve got WPA. Then take all of a hitter’s at-bats and what happened in them and add those up, and you’ve got his WPA for the season.
The stat is not a very good one for predicting future performance, because it’s heavily affected by “clutch” hitting performances. For instance, Marco Scutaro’s home run on April 15 of last year, with 2 outs in the bottom of the ninth, 2 men on first and second, and his team down 2, was worth over 90% of a win in WPA terms. Whereas a homer to lead off a game might only be worth 7% of a win in WPA. Was that Scutaro homer really worth 13 “normal” home runs? In win terms, yes. In terms of who you want to sign as your slugger for next season, not so much.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 16, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's actually not right at all
WPA is based on historical results, no computers/models involved at all. It is done by taking the base/out/score/inning of each situation, and then looking at all prior times that situation has occurred in actual games.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on May 16, 2008 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh... hm
That would have saved me some typing. I seem to have mentally conflated The Book with WPA.
Well, at least I got to link to Wikipedia.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 16, 2008 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't that more or less OBP?
Yes, that’s a very strong stat and should be weighed heavy, but that’s NOT all there is to being a good hitter.
by Sacred#24 on May 16, 2008 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Offense
is really down in the AL at the moment. League average OPS in Oakland’s stadium in 698. 698. Before you say that this is caused by the A’s sucky offense, league average OPS in the AL, as a whole is 720. For context, it was 761 in 2007. A 40 point drop in league average OPS is HUGE.
Also, some of the usual suspects, like Ortiz, Arod, Hafner, Miguel Cabrera, are either out with injuries, or struggling, or underperforming.
Secondly, one very simple, basic stat, that many people ignore is outs, choosing to focus instead on just strikeouts. Cust has made 86 outs, in 144 PAs, an out rate of 0.597 outs per PA, 60 outs in every 100 PAs. Brown has made 123 outs in 164 PA, an out rate 0.75 outs per PA, 75 outs in every 100 PAs. Just for comparison, Juan Pierre over his career makes outs at a rate of 0.69 outs per PA, 69 outs in every 100 PAs.
WPA does have some fairly serious flaws, when used to asses non-relief pitchers.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on May 16, 2008 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those out figures must be including GIDPs
Even Emil doesn’t have a .250 OBP.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 16, 2008 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, they do.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on May 16, 2008 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Take away...
Brown’s production, where is this team, -.500? Take away Cust’s… well yeah, it doesn’t really matter.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
by KMoAsFan on May 16, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, what are you saying here?
Are you saying that the A’s record if you took away Brown would be the same as if you took away Cust? Or that the A’s would have the same CURRENT record if you took away Cust?
(Hint: the correct answer is “neither, but especially not the second one.”)
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 16, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The outs
that Brown has made are part of his “production”. Outs is a very simple and obvious stat. Strikeouts are simply one type of out. Why are you pretending that outs do not matter?
“Take away Cust’s… well yeah, it doesn’t really matter.”
Why? Because you say so? How about offering an argument as to why you believe the outs that Cust and Brown have made do not matter.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on May 16, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Evaluating Performance
In my mind, there are two basic types of performance metrics:
1) Those which measure how much player X helped the team win.
2) Those which are good predictors for helping the team win in the future.
Of course these categories have significant overlap.
It is true that WPA is a flawed metric for 1), but its pretty clearly a better metric than RBI. If you have a better way of measuring this, that’s great, there needs to be more work done in this area.
As for 2), obviously there are composite projection systems which are the gold-standard, but for quick and dirty predictors, wOBA, GPA, linear weights, etc. are pretty good.
by aang on May 16, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
GPA is basically pointless
It’s not as accurate as EQA or the various linear weights type stats like Batting Runs, BaseRuns. It’s not as intuitive as OPS+. Yet, unlike a simple Runs Created formula, ie (hits + walks) * total bases / PA, or OPS, it is unwieldy.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on May 16, 2008 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
GPA
I don’t think its that unwieldy, “(OBP*1.8+SLG)/4, adjusted for ballpark factor” according to THT.
You’re right, though, EQA is better. Jack Cust is currently 5th in the AL (among qualified) with a .310 EQA.
by aang on May 16, 2008 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Try calculating GPA without a calculator
that’s what I mean by unwieldy.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on May 16, 2008 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or a computer
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on May 16, 2008 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ghostride....
the MLB?
by passionately objective on May 16, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least we've moved beyond blaming Jeremy.
Some read stats. Others actually watch the game.
by UncleLeo on May 17, 2008 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A few observations from BP in ATL.
Barton was stroking line drives all over the place. Thomas and mSweeney were hitting everything hard with HRs coming left and right. Cust wasnt making very good contact and hitting a lot of weak grounders and soft flies. I know everyone has a different approach during bp, but we’ll see how this translates come game time. I think Thomas might be poised for a big series.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
by KMoAsFan on May 16, 2008 4:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
that is...
If he gets to pinch hit.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
by KMoAsFan on May 16, 2008 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In Regards to Emil Brown.
The A’s have only won 6 games in which Brown did not have an RBI. The A’s have lost every game he has failed to RBI in dating back to April 22nd. They have only lost 4 games over the season in which he has an RBI.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
by KMoAsFan on May 16, 2008 11:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Of course they have a better record when Brown RBIs
Any time you filter a set of games by some positive characteristic, like “Smith gets a hit,” or “Jones scores a run,” or whatever, obviously the team is going to win more of those games than it normally would.
I’d bet that most of the A’s players have a similar “effect” in terms of winning games where they RBI vs. losing games where they don’t. Unless a guy is a bench scrub who only plays in blowouts, I can’t see why anyone’s RBI would be worth less than anyone else’s.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 17, 2008 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who cares about Brown?
The A’s are undefeated in games where they pitch a shutout, which is why pitching is so important.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on May 17, 2008 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're outsmarting yourself PT.
I’d bet that most of the A’s players have a similar "effect" in terms of winning games where they RBI vs. losing games where they don’t.
Thats exactly my point. Brown has actually been driving in runs while no one else. No that he’s stopped we are losing games. You can’t expect one guy to carry a team, without Brown hitting, Cust walking rather than crushing the ball, and Thomas not hitting for power is not going to help us win games. All you have to do is look at the results.
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
by KMoAsFan on May 17, 2008 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't you look at what you just posted and realize that Brown isn't good?
He’s not driving in runs anymore (translation: His luck with RISP has run out), and because he’s not a very good hitter but still playing every day the team isn’t doing very well.
Isn’t it fairly obvious that the team isn’t going to do very well when they have bad hitters in the lineup?
by mikev on May 19, 2008 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Brown is simply not a starting-caliber player against right-handed pitching. The problem is that right now the team does not have anyone who IS starting caliber to fill that spot. If Fiorentino was healthy I’d suggest giving him the shot at it. But he, Linden, Denorfia, Buck and Gonzalez are all either injured or coming off injury and struggling.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on May 19, 2008 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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