Bonds Boycott?
Next to y'all, Dave Zirin is my favorite sports writer.
In this week's column Dave writes,
"All traces of Bonds, the greatest player in baseball history, have vanished from the Bay. The left-field wall no longer carries an image of Bonds chasing Hank Aaron for the crown. There is no marker of where Bonds hit home run number 756. There is no reminder that Bonds ever even wore a Giants uniform.
But it's not just Magowan trying to “disappear” Barry Bonds. He has been blackballed in a blatant and illegal act of Major League collusion, a bosses' boycott."
And
"There is one problem. Bonds doesn't want to go gently into that good night and is pushing his union to fight back. He has asked the Players Association to file collusion charges on his behalf and the union has served Commissioner Bud Selig with papers."
So what do you think? Is Bonds a victim of "a once time honored practice" of owner collusion or "a rare display of common sense"?
Disclaimer: I'm from Oakland, "home of some of the most important social movements of the last 100 years" so I'm willing to entertain a conspiracy theory or two. But not without your penetrating analysis and opinion-as-biased-as-mine that I've come to expect from my other favorite sports writers: y'all.
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This is the Poster Child for Collusion
As others have pointed out, not only was he still one of the 10 best offensive performers in te game last year—when he played-but a) he isn’t anywhere near as bad in the field as people think- he could still play for a NL team; b) offense is way down in the AL—where if used as a DH he would improve just about every team in the league; and c) the clubhouse “cancer” thing is a crock—didn’t the Giants contend for virtually every year between 1993-2004?; d) it is very unlikely that his trial will occur during this season
I’d want him on my team in a heartbeat. And since my team is the A’s—the only question is one of money. Is Bonds so prideful that he’s demanding 8 figures? (Gagne got it) Or a prorated 8 figure salary? If not, then see no reason why 30 teams wouldn’t want him—and if he does want the big money, there are still probably 8-10 teams who could afford the risk.
by madmongoose on May 13, 2008 10:20 AM PDT 0 recs
Do you prefer :
Bonds at 8 figures,
Or Frank Thomas at 6?
The other 29 teams didn’t grab FT at 6, so they can’t use that excuse.
Oh, and the NL teams may not like the Defense / Offense tradeoff involved.
by MobiusKlein on
May 13, 2008 11:57 AM PDT
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What do you mean "didn't grab FT at 6"?
Thomas was going to be making the same salary wherever he went. He preferred Oakland, and the A’s made room for him. The other 28 teams did not enter into the discussion.
The only way another team could have “grabbed” him was by assuming his entire contract.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
May 13, 2008 12:04 PM PDT
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tradeoff?? TRADEOFF???
I feel Like Jim Mora. The tradeoff between what Bonds brings you at the plate compared to what you lose with him in the field is, oh, maybe like China vs. Albania. Big league GMs run the numbers—believe me, they know what he could do to their team offensively. If Gagne can get a job… and Giambi can still have a job.. and Thomas gets paid huge by the Blue Jays last year, etc., etc. they you are telling me that the greatest hitter in the history of the game (irrespective of how/why that happened) who is still in the 95th perctenile in offense can’t get work?
And that it’s not collusion???
by madmongoose on
May 13, 2008 12:50 PM PDT
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Word
He’s not even getting low-ball offers to reject. It’s very suspicious.
In fact, I don’t think there’s an old guy with a steroid cloud who is employed this year. Makes ya wonder.
by achiappanza on
May 14, 2008 11:41 PM PDT
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You seem to be looking through rose colored glasses
Yes Bonds does not have a job in MLB right now, the same is true for a lot of other free agents. Bonds is not that good in the field, but we have Cust so we could put up with that. The biggest problem I think most clubs have with signing Bonds is his clubhouse presence, the cost of signing him (probably many millions), and the baggage he brings along. If he were playing for the A’s I truly believe that he would bring change the clubhouse chemistry for the worse. On the other side, Frank Thomas is a positive influence to the other players no matter how he is hitting. From what I have read when he was with the A”s in 2006 they all loved him, I doubt that would happen with Bonds.
Could Bonds help other clubs ? Yes, but the problem is that most GMs probably realize that you need a team not just one superstar. His ego is so large that he can’t see that it is in his way. He is not a team player.
Collusion – NO, Smart inaction – YES
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
by Eastbayjim on
May 13, 2008 1:37 PM PDT
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Clubhouse Presence? baggage?
has anyone signed Milton Bradley lately? Oh, OK. I guess his baggage is worth it.
Anyone take a flier on Rcik ankiel? Eric Gagne? Miguel Tejada?
I find this argument pretty hysterical. For the better part of 12 seasons Bonds’ teams enjoyed as mucb success as any outside of the Bronx—I guess that clubhouse presence caused Dusty to take Ortiz out in the 6th game of 2002 or their bullpen to groove those balls to Spiezio and Glaus. He was—by far—the single most valuable player in the sport for about 10 seasons—regardless of how he achieved that level—and he’s still damn good at the plate now.With a whole lot to prove, by the way.
by madmongoose on
May 13, 2008 1:42 PM PDT
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I don't disagree
Bonds is great at the plate but that fact does not prove collusion. Many teams have talked about him and some, including the A’s have talked to him or his agent and the fact that no one has made an offer is not enough to prove collusion.
Could there be collusion, yes. Could no one really want to take a chance on him? Yes i think this is what is happening. Reasonable doubt has been shown, the owners have not gone off together and signed a pack to not talk to or sign Bonds.
Just so you know, if we did not have Thomas and Cust (who will be here for awhile) then Yes, I would like them to look into signing Bonds, but I am very wary of what he will do to our clubhouse chemistry.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
by Eastbayjim on
May 13, 2008 2:04 PM PDT
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Do you believe that
it is reasonable for the Mariners to go with Jose Vidro at DH instead of Bonds? And now, the talk of Griffey, instead of Bonds?
This is a team that gave up one of the best prospects in baseball to WIN NOW. Is it reasonable to conclude that Jose Vidro would help them win now, instead of Barry Bonds.
And what of JP Riciardi? He’s flailing around signing and playing a bunch of mediocrities like Shannon Stewart, Brad Wilkerson, Kevin Mench?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on
May 14, 2008 1:08 AM PDT
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If 30 companies agree
that you’re a jackass and they want nothing to do with you, is that collusion? Or just 30 intelligent businesses reaching the same logical conclusion?
Fans see collusion because they presume baseball skill should be the only factor in determining whether to hire someone. It’s not.
I’d also like to know what Bonds’ price is. One thing you hear a lot is that no one is willing to sign Bonds even at major-league minimum salary. Do we actually know that? Has Bonds (or his agent) ever stated openly how much salary he’s willing to play for? And if not, how do we know some teams haven’t made inquiries and found out that their offer isn’t high enough?
(For what it’s worth, I do think Bonds is worth a flyer at minimal salary, for a team that has room for him and is in a media climate that can tolerate the circus. The A’s have three DH’s already, so he’s a bad fit for us.)
formerly known as mdl
by iglew on May 13, 2008 10:38 AM PDT 0 recs
Bonds' asking price
This is a major piece of the collusion puzzle. If Bonds is willing to play for the league minimum and nobody has approached him about playing for the league minimum then yes it would seems collusion is afoot. But all I think I’ve heard from Bonds’ camp is that he hasn’t been offered a contract, not even at league minimum, but they haven’t expanded on if he’d accept a league minimum contract or not.
I get the Giants are going for the whole youth movement thing but what are they really gaining from playing Randy Winn over Barry Bonds? There are also some AL teams that I’d think could use Bonds as a DH. For a guy who hasn’t been proven to have done anything wrong he seems to be getting a pretty bad wrap.
Believe me, if we disagree it is you that is wrong.
by methodrampage on
May 13, 2008 12:38 PM PDT
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i agree
with your point that many people seem to confuse “collusion” with “independent decisions that happen to be the same”.
moving on from that, there is then the question of whether these independent decisions are smart or stupid for each team. imo this gets pretty subjective, because obviously every gm is weighing the non-baseball factors that come with Barry against the baseball factors, and you can debate the significance of these non-baseball factors until the cows come home. plus the baseball factors are not exactly simple for every team (e.g. the A’s already have a few DHs for cheap)
finally, as for your questions on Barry’s price- I read a few weeks ago that nobody has even called his agent yet (i need to find where I read this… working on it) to find out how much Bonds is asking for. nobody. so when people give a quote on how much he costs, it is speculation. Educated speculation, for sure, but it is interesting that nobody has even called to find out.
by oakinboston on
May 13, 2008 12:48 PM PDT
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"nobody has called to find out"
If true, and I was a competent lawyer, i wouldn’t need anything else to go before a judge and jury and claim collusion. You mean to tell me that 30 “intelligent” (be careful—we’re talking about the Royals among others here) businessmen, independent of each other, have decided he ain’t worth it? and they’re not even willing to talk to him or his agent?
Balderdash.
by madmongoose on
May 13, 2008 12:52 PM PDT
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Hate to burst your bubble here
but no, that is not enough to go before a judge and jury. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff here, and while it’s a civil-suit burden (i.e. he simply needs a preponderance of evidence, not proof beyond a reasonable doubt), you need evidence before you can possibly have a preponderance of it, and right now there’s no tangible evidence at all. No well-established fact pattern of offers to players (like in the 1980s), no leaked memos from MLB, no ill-advised conversations or emails among ownership. All they have is the circumstantial evidence that a good player isn’t receiving offers—which will undoubtedly be weighed against a stack of affidavits from MLB and team execs that, no, they aren’t colluding against Bonds, and no, if someone else is, they don’t know about it. He’d be lucky if the lawsuit even reached trial without getting tossed out on summary judgment.
Shysterball is probably the best available source for opinion on MLB-related legal matters, and he thinks that Bonds currently has no real hope of winning a collusion lawsuit.
I say the above, incidentally, even though I actually think there is collusion going on. Sherlock Holmes-esque deductions (when you have eliminated the impossible, etc etc) aren’t good enough to win a suit.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
May 13, 2008 1:15 PM PDT
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I Used a Bit of License
And you got all literal and legalese on me. That’s OK. The point is common sense—if I and 30 competitors are in the ice cream business. And there is someone alive in the world who once made the very best ice cream on earth—and still turns a pretty good flavor, better than nearly all of my or their employees. And none of us—not one of those 30 firms—picks up the phone and makes a call to inquire about this person’s services—now what in God’s name could be the reason for that? We know the ice cream’s going to be pretty good. We know more people will buy it if the realize that this person—with all his fame—is making it.
what could possibly be holding us back from even making a phone call?
by madmongoose on
May 13, 2008 1:38 PM PDT
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Again, I think the arguments against signing Bonds are preposterous
It’s laughable for Seattle to be considering giving up valuable players to get a rapidly fading Griffey back instead of signing Bonds at no penalty. He would also upgrade (among contenders) Detroit, Cleveland, NY and Tampa. And probably Oakland too, although I think now that the team has Frank Thomas there are better ways to spend the money.
The key point one needs to realize here is this—no matter how preposterous the arguments are, the mere fact that there ARE arguments provides MLB plausible deniability.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
May 13, 2008 1:48 PM PDT
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i feel like you are ignoring the answers rather than responding to them.
and they are, as the SI article points out: 1- clubhouse considerations, 2- circus potential, 3- court distractions
(noted that you just responded to it in a different comment above)
as i mentioned in my first comment, you can argue about these three things forever. people’s opinions will vary widely based on how much they hate bonds. Im not really interested in that particular conversation. but the point is, these ARE reasonable considerations for a LOT of people, and this is enough to dismiss the collusion idea.
by oakinboston on
May 13, 2008 1:53 PM PDT
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I'm Ignoring Them Only for This Reason
I think all the potential reasons are BS compared to the payoff Bonds could provide. And I think 30 GMs—even the less competent ones—if you gave them sodium pentathol—would say the same thing.
They are ex post facto rationalizations geared to hide the basic truth—there is an unspoken agreement not to give this guy the stage. Not after all the publicity of the past several seasons—not after the stain the sport suffered. Selig has communicated it in a way that leaves few tracks, and maybe none at all—but believe me the message has been delivered.
And the irony is—pretty delicious when you think about it—is that the juice and the long ball “saved” the sport in the mid 1990s—and now the long ball is way down, scoring is way down in the AL, and the guy who might come in and give about 14 different AL teams a spark—even the Red Sox given Ortiz’ struggles—can’t get a job.
by madmongoose on
May 13, 2008 2:18 PM PDT
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it is likely enough
to get in front of a judge. and enough for discovery, which would reveal more.
by Future Ed on
May 13, 2008 2:22 PM PDT
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It might end up there
If it does, though, it’ll be too late to salvage this season…
And I’d question what the chances of him finding a smoking gun in discovery are in actuality. It’s quite possible that the agreement is a verbal one, in which case there’s no paper trail. Even if the owners were dumb enough to email/write each other about it, they might produce so much irrelevant correspondence that it’s impractical to go through it all. The potential gain to Bonds might be outweighed by the potential costs.
I won’t say it’s impossible, but it seems unlikely to me that the owners would leave themselves open to this by actually making records of it.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
May 13, 2008 3:49 PM PDT
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A little consistency please
You just told madmongoose that there is not enough evidence to get before a judge and jury. Now you say it might. So, which is it?
Of course, even if tossed out on summary judgment, the complaint would have to go before a judge.
As for the costs outweighing the gains, do you really think the cost to pay a paralegal to go through discovery outweighs the treble damages Bonds could win in an antitrust suit?
Also, circumstantial evidence is good evidence. Ever heard of Scott Peterson?
It's a beautiful day for baseball.
by As Man on
May 13, 2008 4:05 PM PDT
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it is consistant
the difference is the jury. As it stands right now, there is not enough information for a verdict (by judge or jury) what PT and I were discussing is pretrial discovery. You will note that PT’s opinion was there wouldn’t be any smoking gun.
by Future Ed on
May 13, 2008 4:41 PM PDT
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Then PT doesn't make any sense
If all you’re talking about is the complaint being seen by a judge, why “might” it only get that far?
If a complaint is filed, it goes before a judge unless withdrawn.
It's a beautiful day for baseball.
by As Man on
May 13, 2008 4:51 PM PDT
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Um, yes
However, if they get summarily tossed out on their ear a year before the case would go to trial, it’s not exactly going to accomplish much—other than to make Bonds look bad.
You seem to be arguing that there’s no drawback to filing suit, and I don’t think that’s true at all, particularly when you consider that Bonds’s goal—to restore some part of his reputation and play baseball this season—is basically a non-monetary one.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
May 13, 2008 4:58 PM PDT
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Basically,
I’m arguing you came on too strong on madmongoose.
As for a possible lawsuit, we shall see. Even if Bonds’ atty has no evidence besides that no one has expressed interest, it might be worth it to see what comes out in discovery.
It's a beautiful day for baseball.
by As Man on
May 13, 2008 7:09 PM PDT
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What I'm saying is this:
The evidence could exist, but we (and, probably, Bonds) have no reason to believe it does.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
May 13, 2008 4:51 PM PDT
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ah here we go, April 23rd SI article
“No team has made an offer at any price at any time. That’s a simple fact,’’ Bonds’ agent Jeff Borris told SI.com. “At this point in time, no club has even offered the minimum salary. And even though the minimum salary wouldn’t be a bona fide offer for a player of his stature, it’s beyond comprehension that no team [has made] such an offer.’‘Borris strongly denied whispers that Bonds is demanding a $10 million salary, or more, after making $19.2 million last year as a Giant. “Completely false,’’ Borris called those rumors.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/04/23/heyman.bonds/index.html
it is worth skimming this
by oakinboston on
May 13, 2008 1:22 PM PDT
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Agent speak.
No offers at any time doesn’t mean no inquiries at any time.
by sslinger on
May 13, 2008 2:21 PM PDT
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Borris is a snake.
He loudly proclaims that no team has even offered minimum salary, and then in the very next sentence makes it clear, in agent-speak, that if anyone does offer minimum salary he will consider it an insult. “Wouldn’t be a bona fide offer” is clear enough to any GM. So tell us, Mr Borris, what would be considered a bona fide offer?
formerly known as mdl
by iglew on
May 13, 2008 8:33 PM PDT
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I actually think
that Borris and Bonds might do themselves a favor by literally making a public offer—saying “I’ll play for not more than so-and-so amount.” That way teams couldn’t use this ludicrous “Well, we think he won’t accept our offer, so we won’t even make it” defense…
That being said, I’ve never heard of someone doing that before, so I’m not exactly surprised that Bonds hasn’t done it.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
May 13, 2008 9:19 PM PDT
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Totally agree
Not just set a price, but have barry – not borris – make a personal statement of his sincere desire to be a contributor. Still not clear that barry is as interested in a deal as borris….
by Hot Cup Joe on
May 13, 2008 9:38 PM PDT
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That assumes that Barry
actually has a sincere desire to be a contributor. I for one am not convinced of that.
I think you (Hot Cup Joe) nailed it in the other comment: Barry wants to play on his terms or not at all. And by terms, I don’t mean money.
formerly known as mdl
by iglew on
May 13, 2008 10:30 PM PDT
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Bonds and papers
Filing papers with the union indicates that he is activley looking for work. It also suggests that he has asked for a price and no one is biting.
There was talk this winter that the A’s were taling to him. in fact, I believe roto world reported talks reached the vaunted “verge” stage. This shows that there was interest.
I have read that its a down year offensively. I don’t know that but if its true that shows a need. If its not a down year, there are always teams that need more offense.
Other steroids tainted players are working.
Why is the best offensive player available not playing? All signs point to collusion.
by Future Ed on May 13, 2008 11:08 AM PDT 0 recs
While I think collusion is in the air, it's HARD to RESPECT a writer
who doesn’t have his simple facts in order. I was unfortunate enough to have to attend a game at PacBell while entertaining a friend from out of town; the A’s were not at home that particular week. This was around the time all the hoopla was being made over the “Bonds signage dissapearing act” made in all the local media.
Lo and behold, when I went to the park there were indeed at least TWO indications of Bonds still visible to the naked eye. There was a orange placard on the outfield wall indicating 756 as well as Bonds’ name on a sign indicating the four players with the most home runs in Giants history (this sign was very similar to the one they used to have in place when Bonds was chasing Aaron and Ruth).
In sum, these types of articles are, in my opinion, regurgitated trash. How do you expect me to read past the first few lines when you can’t get your simple facts straight.
by 33SwisherSweet on May 13, 2008 12:10 PM PDT 0 recs
size matters, little Swish
Com’on man… usually you have something valuable to contribute. What’s this stuff?
It’s true about the plaque, which let’s face it can’t exactly be seen from EVERY-F-ing-WHERE like the banners and chase counts were. Zirin also didn’t mention that the largest presence Bonds STILL has at Mays Field is on the backs of Gnats fans’ jerseys, many of whom for a LONG TIME couldn’t even name another player on the team. That asshat Zirin really should get all of the facts exactly right or else everything he has to say is totally suspect. I don’t remember seeing the Gnats HR leader banner, but I’ll take your word for it. I guess it was just so conspicuous. Compared to the former Bonds-ification of Warrantless Wiretap Park, Bonds’ image at the park has largely been dramatically, noticeably, and I’d proffer “maliciously” reduced. I’m not a Bonds fan… but I like Gnats management even less.
Things could be worse. Suppose your errors were counted and published every day, like those of a baseball player.
by 149 on
May 13, 2008 7:00 PM PDT
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I don't think people know what collusion means
A bunch of teams individually deciding (for whatever reason – many of them bad, I’m sure) to not sign Bonds is not the 30 owners meeting in some secret cave and shaking hands on the deal. Collusion is an organized effort. There’s not one shred of evidence that has gone on.
There are a number of arguments to be made for why Bonds hasn’t been given an offer (that he likes, anyway). Again, they’re not all sound baseball arguments. And in the end some of them might even prove to be false (would his demeanor really cause poor chemistry/losses? doubtful). But that doesn’t mean they’re not honest reasons for avoiding the guy.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on May 13, 2008 12:50 PM PDT 0 recs
FYI
collusion
n. where two persons (or business entities through their officers or other employees) enter into a deceitful agreement, usually secret, to defraud and/or gain an unfair advantage over a third party, competitors, consumers or those with whom they are negotiating. Collusion can include secret price or wage fixing, secret rebates, or pretending to be independent of each other when actually conspiring together for their joint ends. It can range from small-town shopkeepers or heirs to a grandma’s estate, to gigantic electronics companies or big league baseball team owners.
Things could be worse. Suppose your errors were counted and published every day, like those of a baseball player.
by 149 on
May 13, 2008 6:11 PM PDT
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Here's a Bonds-related question:
At what point will be too late to sign him and still realize the gain his offense expects to provide?
You have to figure he can’t just go a full year without seeing live pitching and come out dominant when he finally suits up. There’s gonna be rust if he gets back in the game.
It isn’t quite the same as adding a “fresh” pitcher in July or August, IMO. Hitting is a reactive skill, making it harder to take a year-long layoff from, I’d imagine.
For example, if Bonds were to finally sign with a team in August, he might need need a month to get his swing back. By the time he’s successful, he wouldn’t have presented an upgrade to his team over the six weeks he was there. (This is all hypothetical, but my point is that he probably would need to sign sometime soon for the team to realize a gain from signing him).
So when do you guys think he’ll need to sign by, in order to make an impact in ‘08? Isn’t there probably some date this season where it’s too late to expect him to contribute, considering the inevitable rust?
by notsellingjeans on May 13, 2008 2:06 PM PDT 0 recs
If it were me, maybe September 30th
Think of it this way.
You’re in the final week of a pennant race with, say, the Angels. You have a guy such as Cust or Thomas on the bases, but you really want to have Rajai Davis in there to increase the chance of scoring the run. Except it’s the 7th blanking inning (the infamous Giambi, not Byrnes, decision was made in the 7th inning)—that spot in the order will come up again.
Scenario One: take your chances with Rajai Davis.
Scenario Two: Pinch run davis, and then pinch hit Bonds—who hasn’t faced live pitching all year.
I know which door I’m choosing—Two.
by madmongoose on
May 13, 2008 2:13 PM PDT
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You'd be foolish to do so
You’d really use a guy who hasn’t faced live pitching in over a year over a guy who has with the playoffs on the line?
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
by DMOAS on
May 13, 2008 7:04 PM PDT
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If the guy was the former greatest hitter on the planet
with an OPS of over 1000 the past two years—vs. Rajai Davis?
In a heartbeat.
by madmongoose on
May 13, 2008 8:21 PM PDT
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Ironic.
I believe Bonds withdrew from the MLBPA because he wanted to market himself on his own. Now he wants their help for a collusion suit???
What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.
by KMoAsFan on May 13, 2008 2:15 PM PDT 0 recs
only withdrew from the revenue-sharing, not the union itself
We're going to knock balls out of the country's park, for the home team, which is America. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
May 13, 2008 3:08 PM PDT
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"We haven't even received an offer"
I think part of the reason he hasn’t even received an offer is that every MLB team knows that the offer would eventually get out to the public.
What’s worse than getting the negative publicity and media questions surrounding Bonds while he’s in your lineup?
Dealing with the same questions while he’s not in your lineup. If a team made an offer and didn’t sign him, they’d have the media distraction and (allegedly) bad P.R. for considering getting involved with him…and they wouldn’t get to enjoy the fruits of his labor (great hitting). That’s perhaps the worse case scenario.
Unlike the typical free agent player/agent, where it’s harmless to kick the tires and see if the player will sign for a favorable figure, there is a huge disincentive to enter casual negotiations with Bonds. Teams believe it will hurt their image to even converse with his agent.
I don’t think he’s unsigned because people are splitting hairs over 400K vs. $3-5 mil. If a team was willing to make the leap, that wouldn’t get in the way.
Although if his agent is smart, he’s already sent a letter to every team offering that Bonds will play for the minimum, so that teams don’t have to approach him to find out if that’s the case. One quick way to improve your P.R. at least a little bit is to play for the league minimum.
by notsellingjeans on May 13, 2008 2:16 PM PDT 0 recs
we may all hate him
But I for one applaud his unwillingness to beg. the minimum? the minimum? Because i got outed for something that 40-50%- at minimum- if you want to use that word—of my peers were doing also? I have to beg for work? He’s got too much pride for that—and I can’t fault him for that.
by madmongoose on
May 13, 2008 2:21 PM PDT
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I can't belive 30 teams could agree on anything, however
if they had agreed that a 44 year old egotist who probably had chemical help in all his achievements was no longer a viable MLB player, good on them.
Any similarity between my spelling and that deemed correct, is pureley accidental.
by Dalesman on May 13, 2008 2:22 PM PDT 0 recs
"no Longer a Viable Major league Player"??!!
This is an amazing debate. I can’t believe someone’s not making this stuff up.
first off, a collection can sometimes make an obvious and stupid error. How many studios passed on Star Wars? But to believe that—in the most statistics-conscious business I’m aware of—when there is an obvious option to half the marketplace to remove the product’s principal on-field weakness—these 30, or 14, individuals and their support staff, scouts, owners, etc.. all believe that Barry Bonds “is no longer a viable MLB player” is the equivalent of saying the sun revolves around the earth.
Please look at his actual numbers—last year—post steroids/HGH or at least the type of testing that everyone else is going through—and tell me he’s not viable. Are you kidding me? If he entered the A’s lineup tomorrow—tomorrow—with no extended spring training or practice whatsoever—HE WOULD BE OUR BEST OFFENSIVE PLAYER. BY FAR.
by madmongoose on
May 13, 2008 2:29 PM PDT
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plus
whatever boost at the road gate for people coming out to boo him. plus the Extra TV revenue from Fox and ESPN going national on your games to show the freak. TV ratings would likely go up locally.
I’m not sure what the PR hit would be. A few people looking for an excuse NOT to go to a game?
by Future Ed on
May 13, 2008 2:34 PM PDT
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Sorry looks like I pulled a string I didn't mean to,
The phrase ‘no longer a viable major league player’ was more about hiring a man with his reputation rather than his past playing ability. However a players ability to perform, once he’s past thirty falls off very significantly as each year passes, as a simple proof check how many players over the age of 40 are in the MLB. Looking at Bonds 2007 version is not necessarily an accurate way of predicting Bond 2008. I’ve played and watched sport for a very long time and I remember few players still productive when the same age as Bonds, it is possible but unlikely, I think there are a lot better risks to take.
Any similarity between my spelling and that deemed correct, is pureley accidental.
by Dalesman on
May 13, 2008 2:53 PM PDT
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Risks such as?
Also, 26 major league organizations agreed to collude on EVERY free agent—not just one pariah, EVERY PLAYER ON THE MARKET—for multiple years in the 1980s.
Compared to that, this Bonds crap is amazingly easy to pull off.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
May 13, 2008 3:58 PM PDT
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So after his injury year in 2005
you’d have missed out on a 1000+ OPS season in 2006.
and after that season you’d have missed out on another 1000+ OPS season in 2007.
And now you still think he’s falling off the cliff. Let me clue you in to another dirty little secret about Barry Bonds—steroids and prickly personality notwithstanding—the man’s work ethic is unreal. Believe me he will perform to the absolute peak of his potential this year and any other in which he attempts to compete. I simply see no evidence besides the obvious “we don’t like him” that his skills would somehow greatly erode this year.
by madmongoose on
May 13, 2008 8:26 PM PDT
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And oh by the way...
Your Past 30 falloff theory is dead wrong. if anything the salary structure of today’s game—which has led to tremendous off-season conditioning incentives—and, yes, PEDS—has resulted in more good players playing at near peak level way beyond 30 years old than at any point in the game’s history. Occasionally a power hitter falls off the cliff in his mid 30s—but most good major leaguers—and bonds was a great player—stay good much longer these days.
by madmongoose on
May 13, 2008 8:29 PM PDT
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Jose Vidro or Barry Bonds?
Richie Sexson or Barry Bonds? Shannon Stewart or Barry Bonds? Kevin Mench or Barry Bonds? Brady Clark or Barry Bonds?
Bonds might very well be in decline, so is Jose Vidro, Richie Sexson, Shannon Stewart, Kevin Mench, Brady Clark. So are a whole bunch of over 30 players in MLB.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on
May 14, 2008 1:19 AM PDT
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Someone's using Brady Clark as their DH?
Ouch.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
May 14, 2008 9:56 AM PDT
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The Mets have him
Not as DH obviously, but Brady Clark does not deserve a single at bat at MLB level.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on
May 14, 2008 10:04 AM PDT
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In short
There is definitely collusion, otherwise all the organizations in Baseball are flat out stupid, and that’s just not the case. Unfortunately, or fortunately if you’re a hater, it would be very hard for Bonds to prove this. Go Bonds!
by ChadGod on May 13, 2008 3:22 PM PDT 0 recs
If I were Bonds . . . .
I might sign on to a team in one of the independent leagues (if that is an option for him) and just MASH the $&^% out of the ball, put up some insane On-Base % and set the stage (via my play) to have a MLB team look at me. Imagine all of the media attention this would create. If through all of that display of talent nobody comes a knockin’, his collution agrument (at least in the public eye) gets stronger. The 2008 Power #’s are way down. According to Steve Phillips (take that with a grain of salt) MLB HR #’s are on pace to be 1000 less than in 2003. That’s a lot of balls falling into the field of play that used to be souveniers. If Bonds starts crushing in some indie league and the power #’s for this season are still low, you’ve got to raise an eyebrow at why Bonds would still be sitting in a dugout in Norfolk, VA or someplace.
"RIP: UserID: 517"
by Masaryk on May 13, 2008 4:27 PM PDT 0 recs
My boring 2 cents
on this topic that has been discussed to death and is still fascinating is that if bonds wanted to play that bad, he’d be playing in the big leagues. His agent keeps yapping about “nobody has made an offer,’ but that seems completely disingenuous – contact between the bonds people and both the a’s and the rays was reported this winter – if they didn’t make an offer they at least kicked the tires.
I believe that the agent, who doubtless has a whole lot less money than BB, is more anxious to make a deal than barry. That’s because if BB wanted to play, all he would have to do is call hank steinbrenner, make a speech to the effect that he realized that he had made a lot of mistakes but now saw how much baseball meant to him, and wants to work for a strong, visionary leader like hank. But this has not happened, because, imho, BB wants to play on his terms or not at all, his terms being a lot of money and the unstated but obvious corollary that any and all issues relating to BB’s performance are going to be on his terms and anyone who doesn’t like it can kiss his ass. The idea of lowballing barry bonds is ludicrous. Look, magowan knew no one else was going to sign BB last year, and that barry was deeply committed to playing to get the record, but they still brought him back for 8 figure money, because he knew that having barry unhappy would be a complete disaster.
The threats about collusion are an example – they put any gm who might be interested on notice that they are getting involved with a litigious troublemaker, a sure fire way to discourage rather than encourage interest.
by Hot Cup Joe on
May 13, 2008 5:45 PM PDT
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The contact between the A's and Rays, and Bonds,
was all prior to the indictment. As soon as that hit the presses, the “interest” evaporated faster than an Alameda County swimming pool.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
May 13, 2008 7:35 PM PDT
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isn't that the post hoc ergo prompter hoc fallacy?
The indictments were a foregone conclusion – i don’t know that they would have been particularly relevant – in fairness, i don’t know that they weren’t either, but if an indictment precludes interest, what the hell is bonds’ agent on about? On that subject the thing that’s gotta be a lot scarier than the indictment for bonds is the tammy thomas case. Her quick conviction – using essentialy the same defense as bonds seems to have in mind – now that;s got to have the big guy nervous….
by Hot Cup Joe on
May 13, 2008 8:30 PM PDT
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indictments for lying
aka “obstruction of justice” should have a LOT of major leaguers nervous…
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.
by 149 on
May 13, 2008 8:34 PM PDT
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True, but
perjury in front of a federal grand jury is a hell of a lot more serious than general stonewalling and bsing – even in semi-official venues like the mitchell commission. I don’t think Tammy Thomas has been sentenced yet but the speculation is for some serious time, and her charges were not at the bonds level. You know her jury was nor-cal, too, so…no home cookin….
by Hot Cup Joe on
May 13, 2008 8:48 PM PDT
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"semi-official"
like under oath in front of Congress? I’m thinking now of McGwire’s ridiculously careful answers in the Congressional hearings contrasted with Canseco’s full exposure…er, uh, I mean DISSclosure, but also of the less careful statements of Palmeiro in the same instance. But I take your point…
If I were TT’s counsel, I’d have had her trial moved from the home of BALCO. Stupid not to. So maybe TT was “cooked” just not at home.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.
by 149 on
May 13, 2008 9:18 PM PDT
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If I were Bonds...
As we like to say, “Bonds failed lunch.” It doesn’t matter that he aced all of his classes and is valedictorian. He’s still a “dict” and no one is going to stick up for him, even if we think he’s being screwed… honestly, why stick your neck out for a guy who you know wouldn’t stick his out for you (hello, MLBPA). IF I thought he was being discriminated against on some illegal basis, I’d support him. Wouldn’t stick my neck out for him, but I’d support an anti-discrimination suit.
Sandy Koufax said, “In the end it all comes down to talent. You can talk all you want about intangibles, I just don’t know what that means. Talent makes winners, not intangibles. Can nice guys win? Sure, nice guys can win – if theyR


