Buying Bonds and Getting Hurt
So I'm sitting here watching the Red Sox and Rangers and listening to Ken Macha do the color for the broadcast because Jerry Remy, the Sox usual color guy, is out ill. Let me just tell you, Ken Macha is one uninteresting guy. Holy mackerel.
Any way, Scott Ostler of the Chronicle published a column suggesting that the A's could and probably should be interested in, get this, signing Frank Thomas AND Barry Bonds. Hell, that would be one powerful middle of the lineup, but there's one major flaw in his plan, which Ostler doesn't even mention. Both of these guys are basically designated hitters at this point in their careers. And unless Charlie Finley is coming back to talk Selig into having a NEW designated hitter rule for them to hit for an alternate position like second base or catcher or something, there isn't really a place for both of them.
Yeah, well we currently have Jack Cust running out to left field on a semi-regular basis right now. Bonds is probably an improvement over Cust there. The A's would essentially have to let go of both Cust and Mike Sweeney in order to fit both of these guys into their plans. At the same time, Beane would ultimately have to be convinced of two things. First, that the A's are actually going to be good all season long and will remain in the running for the AL West. Second, that having both of these guys would actually HELP all your young talent coming up rather than teach them to be clubhouse cancers. Frank Thomas showed that he could be a good influence before in 2006 and he was one of the most enjoyable A's at the plate we've seen since the days of the Bash Brothers and Rickey. Bonds...well, I'm not so sure.
Although there is this from that same article:
However, both Thomas and Bonds are hungry to play, and as one A's insider said, "Bonds has already been humbled by being out of a job."
The A's apparently seem to think he's already been humbled, but humbled enough to help a young team compete for a division title in 2008?
And then there's the question about whether or not Billy Beane really WANTS the team to be competitive in 2008. I mean, of course he would ideally want the A's to win the World Series, but he didn't put this team together for this year. He wants to have a good team on the field, but he also wants to look ahead and if the team hangs up by the Angels at the top of the division for a long time, it becomes harder to justify trading away a Joe Blanton or Mark Ellis to a contending team for a bunch of help-us-later talent.
I don't think there's any question that the A's would get a lot better with both Bonds and Frank Thomas hitting third and fourth in this lineup. It's just that there is a lot more of a consideration to the season than making like Nike and just doing it.
I know there's been a ton of discussion about Frank Thomas coming back to the green and gold, but what do you guys think? I know Ostler was just throwing crap against a wall seeing what stuck, but it is an intriguing idea, especially for a team that's been pretty damn good so far without hitting really any home runs.
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I'm not in favor of bringing Bonds cancerous
attitude to our clubhouse. However, I could see us getting
Thomas back on the cheap. Of course that would mean making a decision on parting with Cust or Sweeney. I’d rather they
got rid of Cust.
Mike O'Dowd
by Mikko O on
Apr 21, 2008 11:52 AM PDT
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You would rather give up 4 years of a cheap DH
than 1 year of a guy who is suffering from chronic back issues and hasn’t hit the ball hard all season?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Apr 21, 2008 12:06 PM PDT
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what's more, with his leg problems, MSweeney really clogs up the bases
And what did we do once we discovered a rift in the fourth dimension? We launched a monkey into it. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Apr 21, 2008 12:58 PM PDT
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Anyone remember when Bonds
clubhouse-cancered the Giants to the 2002 World Series?
"Looks like you brought two too many."
by BWH on
Apr 21, 2008 2:52 PM PDT
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Those tumors could hit!
"Good pitching will always stop good hitting and vice-versa."- Casey Stengel
by Gaijin_Suketto on
Apr 21, 2008 8:17 PM PDT
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Out of all those years in the post-season...
...wasn’t that the only year they made it past the first round?
Some read stats. Fans actually watch the games.
by UncleLeo on
Apr 22, 2008 6:19 PM PDT
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{cough}pot/kettle{cough}
And what did we do once we discovered a rift in the fourth dimension? We launched a monkey into it. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Apr 22, 2008 7:51 PM PDT
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How long do you wait for Cust to come around?
If he does not improve by the end of May, I think you make a move. But, I would give him one more month. Is he out of options?
by Carney89 on
Apr 21, 2008 8:40 PM PDT
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Hoboy
Is Cust ever out of options.
By my count, he expended his last option in 2004. Since then he has signed as a minor league free agent 3 times, been designated for assignment, waived and outrighted to the minors twice, and been called up twice.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Apr 21, 2008 10:19 PM PDT
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“After three years as a pro, a player must be protected on a team’s 40-man roster, or he is eligible for the Rule 5 draft (more on that later). Once he’s served those three years, and assuming he is added to the 40-man roster, his club then has what are called “options” on him.
When a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the 25-man Major League roster, he is on “optional assignment.” One common misconception about the rules is that a player may only be “optioned out” three times. Actually, each player has three option years, and he can be sent up and down as many times as the club chooses within those three seasons.
When you hear that a player is “out of options,” that means he’s been on the 40-man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth as a pro, and to be sent down again he’ll have to clear waivers (more on those below).”
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on
Apr 21, 2008 10:35 PM PDT
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One of them is a possibility
Not both.
The A’s can, should and will keep Cust around because he’s cheap. At some point in the future, he will become expendable a la Matt Stairs, but that point is 2 to 3 years from now when Chris Carter and/or Sean Doolittle are knocking on the door.
It would make some sense to swap Sweeney for an upgrade in Thomas (or Bonds). It would make no sense at all to throw away a piece for next year in an attempt to win this year with both of them.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Apr 21, 2008 11:56 AM PDT
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ostler
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Apr 21, 2008 12:09 PM PDT
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I loved Thomas in 2006
but this is 2008, he’s two years older, and the A’s are a different team.
So…no
by OaklandSi on
Apr 21, 2008 12:09 PM PDT
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I say stay the course, go young
Let’s look at the rotation. We’ve got Blanton, Gaudin, Eveland, Smith and DiNardo.
Blanton’s pretty much a known commodity, Gaudin not so much. Eveland is a 1st year player who missed most of last year to a hand injury, the combination of inexperience and questionable stamina could mean a rough 2nd half. Keep in mind that Eveland has never thrown more then 141 innings in a season. Smith has moxie, it would be nice if his stuff was a notch better.
Let’s replace DiNardo with Duke. Duke hasn’t been in a rotation since 2003, there is a very good chance he will fatigue in the 2nd half just like Braden Looper did last year with the Cards.
Harden is Harden, you’re insane if you plan around him.
I’ll be optimistic and give the A’s two dependable SP in Blanton and Gaudin but Duke, Eveland and Smith all carry major question marks and you’d need at least 2 of the 3 to come out in your favor. Behind them you’ve got DiNardo, Braden and then another rookie in either Gio Gonzalez or Andrew Bailey.
The rotation alone is reason enough to not push for the playoffs this year.
Meanwhile the line-up is dependent on Buck to produce as expected, Barton to produce as expected, Crosby to stay healthy and competent and maybe, hopefully Chavez can come back in July.
Now I’ve got no problem with dropping Mike Sweeney for Bonds or Thomas, the presence of one of those vets would help relieve the pressure off the young guys. But you’re right Blez, the A’s would have to add both just to get their offense to a place where they could contend.
Of course, adding Bonds and Thomas does nothing to strengthen the starting rotation, which if it struggles or tires in the 2nd half it’s game over because it’s doubtful that the A’s will be able to stem the tide with Gonzalez or another rookie pitcher.
Think about the Plan B that comes with a playoff push. You need Harden to be healthy and effective or you need a rookie pitcher to emerge in the heat of a pennant race or you need to trade some of your new prospects to get a vet arm!
And I will look to hurt someone if the A’s trade prospects for rental help this July!
Beane traded away his best SP and one of his best hitters because he knew the odds were against him if he stood pat. Making those deals made the odds even worse. Adding Thomas and Bonds and trying to find playing time for both might push the odds back to where they were in December when Beane decided to fold.
The odds didn’t look good then, why would the same odds look better now.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Apr 21, 2008 12:11 PM PDT
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So the only problem with signing Thomas/Bonds
is that maybe the team will play well which might cause them to trade some prospects (very doubtful)? Sounds good to me! Signing Thomas/Bonds has nothing at all to do with going young, as M. Sweeney (cut) and Brown figure to be the pt losers.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Apr 21, 2008 12:26 PM PDT
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exactly, cust can stay around as backup dh / corner of
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Apr 21, 2008 12:30 PM PDT
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Why keep Cust?
Jack Cust is still in the experimental stages, he hasn’t shown a sificiant body of work to convince that he’s for real. You want to bench him for a year and then count on him in 2009? I think it’s more important to figure out who’s actually going to contribute down the road and any plan to bring in Thomas AND Bonds stops that from happening. Thomas wasn’t willing to be a part time player in Toronto, he’s suddenly going to change his mind in Oakland? Bonds has always been a starter, think he’s going to dig a part time role?
Beane signed Mike Sweeney and Emil Brown to be stop gaps and if he gets real lucky maybe they’ll end up being useful trade chips. Dumping them for two different stop gaps who won’t have trade value (because there’s no way Thomas or Bonds comes to Oakland without some kind of crippling no-trade protection) is short sighted. It’s all about winning more games in 2008.
Which isn’t a bad thing in the abstract but you gotta admit Beane kinda fucked that plan up when he traded Haren and Swisher in the first place!
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Apr 21, 2008 1:23 PM PDT
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And what happens when
Colorado or someone else comes calling for FA-to-be Ellis? Do you deal him, further undercutting your play-off chances or do you hold on to him and accept that you’ll get a Sup 1 pick at best as compensation? What is the primary goal, winning or building for the future? You can try and do both but one must take precident. If it’s winning the pennant then you hold on to Ellis. If it’s building then you trade him.
I think winning is a long shot at best, which is why Beane traded Haren and Swisher to begin with. If you’re building, then it makes no sense to sign both vets because they’d only cut into the playing time of the guys you’re counting on in the future.
If you half-ass this you set yourself up for failure regardless of the direction you choose.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Apr 21, 2008 1:13 PM PDT
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and then you are the giants
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown
by flipgatey3 on
Apr 21, 2008 1:15 PM PDT
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I don't really think we should sign both...
Signing one of them helps with winning and doesn’t have anything to do with building for the future. Why not improve the team. If someone makes a great offer for Ellis, then sure! (I’d like to see him resigned, though.) Signing one of them does not cut into anyone’s playing time that we are counting on in the future. I don’t think they have such a great chance even if they got Bonds, but it’s worth a shot.
Basically, your argument is: winning is bad because it might be tempting. I trust them to make good decisions…
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Apr 21, 2008 1:20 PM PDT
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Go back and read my first post
See, I’ve got this problem with quoting myself, it makes me feel egotistical.
My arguement was against signing BOTH players. I’m perfectly fine with signing one.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Apr 21, 2008 1:25 PM PDT
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i'm not really serious about signing both
i’ll take either one over sweeney, but i’d prefer bonds because frank thomas has not looked so great recently.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Apr 21, 2008 1:49 PM PDT
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Big Frank
It took Frank some time to warm up when he was with the A’s 2 years ago. I still think he has one season left in him.
by Colorado Fan on
Apr 21, 2008 3:24 PM PDT
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I'm thinking a slow start Big Frank
is better than a Bonds with zero spring training and no games played this year.
Green Hulk Fists
by oaklandSMASH on
Apr 22, 2008 12:51 AM PDT
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Exactly.
No Thomas. No Bonds. Are the A’s championship level yet? I don’t want “competitive.” I want “Kick Your Ass Without Conscience” championship studliness.
Stick to the plan. Even if they have the best record in the American League, the A’s should trade Blanton, Street, and Harden (if he’s alive) in July and keep loading up with every great prospect they can get their hands on. They should hope Crosby has a superb year and Chavez comes back strong, then trade BOTH OF THEM in the offseason for MORE great prospects.
Then find the studs, play them every day until they’re great, and kick hell out of the damn Yankees, Tigers, Red Sox, Angels and whomever the National League puts into the World Series!
I feel better now.
"How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?" -Satchel Paige
by ptbarnum on
Apr 21, 2008 5:08 PM PDT
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Why?
I agree in trading Blanton and Harden if the value is right, but trading them just to trade them is silly.
by mrrickyg on
Apr 21, 2008 5:27 PM PDT
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Ah, Mr. Barnum
I was about to quote you earlier on the reason why people with more than enough money to live on insist on putting it into absurdly risky investments.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Apr 21, 2008 5:42 PM PDT
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BTW, this reminds me of a joke
Why do Zen monks root for the A’s?
Because they want to be free from bonds.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Apr 21, 2008 12:12 PM PDT
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/rimshot
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown
by flipgatey3 on
Apr 21, 2008 1:15 PM PDT
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I laughed at that joke
granted it is pretty late at night.
Still, I got a chuckle.
Green Hulk Fists
by oaklandSMASH on
Apr 22, 2008 12:52 AM PDT
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clubhouse cancer is BS
“Second, that having both of these guys would actually HELP all your young talent coming up rather than teach them to be clubhouse cancers. Frank Thomas showed that he could be a good influence before in 2006 and he was one of the most enjoyable A’s at the plate we’ve seen since the days of the Bash Brothers and Rickey. Bonds…well, I’m not so sure.”
What’s Bonds gonna do that’s cancerous to a young player, teach him to take pitches until he gets one he can drives? Teach a pitcher a trick or two? As a Giant he rarely complained about contract status and I never heard him blame teammates. What do you want.
As far as Frank goes, let a guy have a few years like Frank to earn the right to not be gruntled.
by win on
Apr 21, 2008 12:13 PM PDT
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What will he teach the young guys?
“Here, Travis, let me find that vein for you…”
“Hey, Jack, you need an HGH supplier? I know a guy…”
“Seriously, Denorfia, what’s with that whole ‘running out the flyball’ thing? And how come you don’t watch your hits before you run to first?”
As for Thomas, he’s been bitching publicly that he thinks the Jays are sitting him because they don’t want to pay his bonuses for plate appearances… screw him.
Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com
by Ozzz on
Apr 21, 2008 2:29 PM PDT
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Screw him, for expecting the Jays to uphold their end of his contract?
Yeah, perish the thought that someone should actually take the CBA seriously.
Like Bush said of the Constitution, it’s just a piece of paper.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Apr 21, 2008 2:52 PM PDT
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What does contract say?
My understanding is that it says if they use him for ~350 plate appearances then that triggers the option for 2009. But as far as I know there’s nothing requiring them to give him those PAs. So how are they not upholding their end of the contract?
When you sign a contract with a clause that gives the team a disincentive to play you, you have to accept responsibility for providing enough incentive to counter it. If Frank were hitting .300 and slugging .550 - heck, even if he were hitting .270 and slugging .450 - they’d still be giving him plate appearances.
He knew what he was signing. (Or if he didn’t, his agent should have explained it.) Unless he got the contract to include some requirement that the team give him PAs, then there’s no breach here.
(P.S. Boo on the gratuitous political reference. To prevent little unnecessary jabs like that is exactly why we have the community guidelines.)
formerly known as mdl
by iglew on
Apr 21, 2008 7:05 PM PDT
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Even though he was struggling,
benching him for clearly inferior player(s) certainly violates the spirit of the contract, if that’s indeed what the Jays were doing. He started off just as poorly in 06 and 07. It sure doesn’t look like a baseball decision.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Apr 21, 2008 7:08 PM PDT
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I don't think that contract's have spirit
because it would imply that agents and lawyers have souls.
And that’s not true.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Apr 21, 2008 7:18 PM PDT
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I don't think that lawyers or agents have souls...
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Apr 21, 2008 7:53 PM PDT
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does that mean it's OK to eat them?
And what did we do once we discovered a rift in the fourth dimension? We launched a monkey into it. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Apr 22, 2008 9:21 AM PDT
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Only on Fridays
when we can’t have “real meat”
Florida ain't no place for a self-respecting A's fan.
by Leopold Bloom on
Apr 22, 2008 3:40 PM PDT
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Mrs. Ostler? Is that you?
And what did we do once we discovered a rift in the fourth dimension? We launched a monkey into it. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Apr 22, 2008 10:05 AM PDT
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whoa. AN 3.0 put this in a weird place
mikeA, I am not, in fact, under the impression that you’re Scott Ostler’s mom.
And what did we do once we discovered a rift in the fourth dimension? We launched a monkey into it. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Apr 22, 2008 4:12 PM PDT
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Baseball decision
Option A = play a guy who isn’t hitting well
Option B = play a different guy who isn’t hitting well and save $10 million dollars next year.
Sounds like a baseball decision to me.
I still don’t see how it violates the spirit of the contract. Are you saying every contract has an unspoken agreement to “give the guy a chance”? If so, what about Rod Barajas’s contract, doesn’t it have the same spirit?
formerly known as mdl
by iglew on
Apr 21, 2008 7:44 PM PDT
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What I mean by "baseball decision" is
playing guys who give you the best chance to win, which in this case means Frank Thomas. It is not even a remotely close call between him and Barajas. If Barajas had an incentive-based contract and they benched him in favor os some .500 OPS catcher, that would also violate the spirit of the contract, yes. Benching him so they don’t have to pay him next year is a “non-baseball decision.” I don’t really have much of a problem with them doing that, but we should call it what it is, and certainly I wouldn’t be pleased if I were Frank Thomas…
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Apr 21, 2008 7:51 PM PDT
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It's specifically against the CBA
to bench players to avoid triggering contract incentives.
If it wasn’t, players would never sign them.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Apr 21, 2008 7:44 PM PDT
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I looked for that and couldn't find it.
I’ve got a PDF of the CBA, but it’s a zillion pages long. Can you tell me what section it’s in, or better yet the page number, so I can read it?
formerly known as mdl
by iglew on
Apr 23, 2008 10:01 AM PDT
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Bitter! Bitter! Bitter!
I still have that bitter taste in my mouth after Thomas, who we took a chance on and revived his career, left us for a whole bunch of money. Hadn’t he made enough money after 40 years (or its least it seems like 40) years in the big leagues? Didn’t he owe us a little bit of loyalty, or is that my naivete showing. The hell with both of them--we are winning ballgames OUR way-and we don’t need no stinkin’ ingrates/cancers messing up the exuberance of the college team ambience we have on this team. Maybe we won’t go all the way—but so far it’s been fun.
"It's a cookbook!"---The Twilight Zone
by Buck18 on
Apr 21, 2008 12:14 PM PDT
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no he had not made enough money
first, there’s no such thing as enough money, and even if there was, it’s not up to you to decide for him.
second, didn’t kenny williams say he had to borrow money from the white sox a few years ago?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Apr 21, 2008 12:17 PM PDT
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Must respectfully disagree
There is such a thing as enough money! And I’m not trying to decide for him. But anyone who plays as long as he has, and during the big-money 90s to boot, it going to have made heavy coin. We gave the guy a job, he almost explictly said we gave him back his manhood, and he went for the money. Cust is not hitting and may not for the forseeable future--a guy with such a big swing is going to go downhill fast if his bat has slowed down. Buck? Don’t know what the problem is with him—he seems to be lurching at the ball. Even so, I think Hannahan is bringing up his average, I think Gonzalez will be brought up pretty soon if he continues to hit…..I like the excitement around this team. A foolish hope? Perhaps.
"It's a cookbook!"---The Twilight Zone
by Buck18 on
Apr 21, 2008 12:27 PM PDT
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There is a story somewhere
and I can’t really find it, but it basically says that Thomas was essentially broke because he made a series of bad real estate moves and invested in some shady business dealings, which is why the guy essentially needed to get as much as humanly possible.
I don’t have time to look for it right now, but I’ll try and find it later (I’m at an Apple store trying to get my Mac fixed – Macs are sooooo overrated).
by Blez on
Apr 21, 2008 1:24 PM PDT
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I have to say
it continues to boggle my mind that people who have enough money to retire by sticking it all in Treasury bonds somehow manage to lose it by investing it in shady “business” opportunities.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Apr 21, 2008 1:30 PM PDT
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Well all people
are not as smart as you PaulThomas
"I Will Not Relent, I Am Driven"... Clutch
Bring Back The Bash!!!
by Shippee33 on
Apr 21, 2008 5:46 PM PDT
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Seriously
Raining frogs? WTF was that all about?
Florida ain't no place for a self-respecting A's fan.
by Leopold Bloom on
Apr 22, 2008 3:41 PM PDT
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Please continue doing this
so that I can continue to flag your posts and eventually get you tossed from the site.
I promise the 5 minutes of martyrdom will be worth it.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Apr 22, 2008 5:43 PM PDT
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another article referred to alimony problems
from his first marriage.
whatever the reason, the up front bonus money offered by Toronto seems to have been the reason Thomas took that over the A’s offer.
by OaklandSi on
Apr 21, 2008 1:30 PM PDT
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it's a poor workman who blames his tools.
blez, go ahead and trade that mac in for one of those fine fine vista machines.
dollars for donuts, you’ll regret it.
that being said, macs have fallen off in quality of parts as they are trying to compete against the windoze market. such is the rub of market share.
that being said, i am going anti-green and developing a coal fired laptop that runs pong.
by greendatitiz on
Apr 21, 2008 5:50 PM PDT
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Well
Can you blame me for a full hard drive failing? And something else is going awry now as well. And it’s just over a year old. Meanwhile my wife has a three and a half year old Dell that is still going strong and hasn’t had one issue.
by Blez on
Apr 21, 2008 10:58 PM PDT
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I dunno,
I have 2 HP notebooks. One is about 5 years old and has never had one issue. The other is over a year old and has had numerous issues: the fan died, the network card died, the DVD drive died, the HD crashed.
You might just be unlucky.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on
Apr 21, 2008 11:44 PM PDT
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It's probably just bad luck
but this is my first experience with Apple and it hasn’t been good. And all you’ve got to go with in the electronics space is the small sample size :-)
by Blez on
Apr 22, 2008 8:19 AM PDT
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My
Commodore 64 is all I’ve ever really needed…now, where did I put Zork? I’m likely to be eaten by a grue at this rate…
Florida ain't no place for a self-respecting A's fan.
by Leopold Bloom on
Apr 22, 2008 3:44 PM PDT
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