Time to Callup CarGon?
As everyone probably knows, the A's offense has been stuttering as of late, the Royals series not withstanding. And it just so happens that there is a prospect down in the minors who is absolutly on fire. Carlos Gonzalez, entering Saturday's game, had a ,333/.400/.537/.937 line thus far, and Saturday he went 4 for 6, with a double, bringing his average up to .367 and OPS to .991. He would definantly add power to our lineup, something we are sorely lacking.
With our offensive struggles, and CarGon tearing up the minors, it shouldn't be long till CarGon gets called up. And hey, Linden has continued to hit, so he might get a chance as well.
So the question is, should we call up CarGon now? Should we wait till May? Who would he replace on the roster?
Rotoworld suggests calling up CarGon and sending down Travis Buck till Buck gets his act together and relearns what he temporarily learned in Toronto. Personally, I'd prefer to keep Buck up, but who do we send down? Sweeney? Denorfia? Release Brown, as many wanted to do as soon as Friday before he managed to hit against his former team?
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No
Wait until the end of May. Remember the 2-month rule. Give the guys on the roster now a fair shake.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I'm in the vicinity
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Take a look at my recent post
Does it look as bad to you as it does to me? The alignment not the material.
I'm here to talk about the past.
Yes
I believe “whack” is the technical term.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Don't do it!
For one thing, isn’t it asking a bit much for CarGon to come up and single-handedly “fix” the offense? His presence will not help Cust start to hit homeruns again or Buck to do something other then strike out every other at bat.
Calling up a rookie with about 100 at bats in AAA is not the way to “fix” a line-up already dependent on guys with so little experience in the Show. Sure, Gonzalez is hot right now but a year ago it was Kevin Melillo who was raking for Sac. Let’s give CarGon the chance to fail in AAA. Let’s see what happens when the scouting reports get around the PCL and pitchers start to adjust.
If he’s still raking after the PCL has seen him a second time then go ahead and call him up. Don’t let a 3 week hot streak at the start of the season persuade you that he’s ready.
The monster at the end of this blog.
You are correct, sir.
Look at the Giants. They’re finally going more youthful with Bocock, Bowker and now Burriss coming up, but is it too soon? In an attempt to show the fans “Hey, we’re NOT still just a bunch of old guys!” Sabean is throwing away options on people.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
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His behavior is comical
Fans complain that the team doesn’t have enough good young players… so he’s determined to find a good young player, no matter HOW young he is or the fact that he hasn’t hit at high-A ball yet.
(OK, granted, Burriss actually kind of sucks. He was a terrible pick at that stage of the draft. Still.)
It’s reminding me a lot of the increasingly frantic gyrations that Dave Littlefield started doing to try to keep his job last year, culminating in the crowning stupidity of the Matt Morris trade. If Giants fans are lucky, he’ll only cost them 2 or 3 more good young players (and a few million dollars) between this season and the draft before finally getting canned.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
agree here
Leave him alone for now, let him try and lead Sac to a first half victory.
Besides, Emil Brown is ok and probably is performing as well as we could expect CarGon to perform in his first MLB action. Also, we want to be giving Denorfia and Ryan Sweeney as much playing time as we can justify.
grover
The voice of sanity in an insane world.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Apr 20, 2008 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Yep....
A-rod, Manny, Chipper, etc… those guys could turn our lineup around… a rookie can and would not.
Keep him in AAA through May.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
I meant to say a rookie canNOT and would not... my mistake.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Tell that to (by OPS+)
Johnny Mize 161
Ted Williams 160
Albert Pujols 157
Mitchell Paige 154
Dale Alexander 148
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
I don't know ...
ask me in 10 years …
I’m just saying that a rookie can and occasionally will turn around a lineup … certainly not predicting that CarGon is necessarily that rookie.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Turn around the line-up?
Ted Williams had Jimmy Fox in the line-up with him, Pujols had the threat of McGwire and healthy Jim Edmonds.
Mize had Joe Medwick, I couldn’t find Mitchell Paige and even Dale Alexander had help.
Where’s the credible threat that’s supposed to help CarGon?
The monster at the end of this blog.
well then maybe he'll only post a 145 OPS+ ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Baseball Economi$t
interestingly studied protection affect of lineups on OPS—It makes no difference.
Not a question of line-up protection
It’s about having another threat in the line-up.
None of the guys devo brought up “turned around” the offense by themselves, they had help. Carlos Gonzalez cannot turn around the A’s offense by himself even if he was as good as Pujols because he can’t help the other guys hit.
Calling up CarGon will not help Jack Cust hit homeruns. It will not help Travis Buck. The A’s aren’t one guy away from firing on all pistons, they’re several guys away. So why dump an impossible burden on a rookie with 100 at bats above AA?
The monster at the end of this blog.
He may not make the lineup better than the sum of it's parts ...
but, if he played like Ted Williams or Albert Pujols, he’d certainly make the sum of those parts a heck of a lot larger. Such an improvement would add in the neighborhood of 50 runs over the course of the season (call it 40 from here on out), improving the team from being on pace to score 737 runs (poor) to 777 runs (average)—though both numbers would actually be higher as we leave April behind. I’d call that turning around the lineup …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
So you're comping him to Ted Williams or Albert Pujols
Fine.
I’ll take the under on that bet.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Well so will I, obviously ...
I’m not predicting that he’s going to do it. I predict that he won’t. All I’m saying is that IF he did (which he almost certainly won’t) he would turn around the offense, single handedly.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
You could say the same about Lindon or Wes Bankston!
And if frogs had rubber asses they could bounce instead of hop.
The monster at the end of this blog.
This is what I was replying to ...
A-rod, Manny, Chipper, etc… those guys could turn our lineup around… a rookie cannot and would not.
An absolute statement saying that it is impossible for a rookie to do what, as I noted, a number of rookies have done.
I’m not saying it’s likely (it’s not - though the odds for CarGon doing it are almost infinitely higher than Lindon or Bankston), I’m just saying it’s possible - which, in the context of where the statement came from, is a reasonable thing to point out.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
A number of rookies have not done what you imply
That CarGon could turn around THIS squad. Ted Williams had Jimmy Fox with him, who’s supposed to be CarGon’s Jimmy Fox? Jim Edmonds had an All-Star season to back-up Pujols, who’s the All-Star bat that’s going to do the same for Gonzalez?
Williams and Pujols had better teams around them then Gonzalez will have in Oakland in 2008.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Nobody -- there's nobody. (Unless there is somebody ... we'll see ...)
There doesn’t need to be. As I showed a couple of posts ago, the second coming of Pujols would turn a poor offense into an average one or (more likely) a somewhat below average offense into an above average offense—WITHOUT ANY OTHER ALL-STAR.
The 2001 Cards had a couple other very good players, with Mac and Drew basically adding up to one and Edmonds being a second.
They also had complete black holes, in the persons of Mike Matheny, Placido Polanco and Edgar Renteria.
Adding Pujols made this a fairly good, but far from great offense, subtracting him would have made it more or less average.
In both cases, adding Pujols would have turned an offense that was likely not playoff bound into an offense that most like was playoff bound.
AGAIN—CARGON IS ALMOST CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO PLAY AS WELL AS PUJOLS
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
So your whole arguement is that
maybe, possibly because Carlos Gonzalez is a professional baseball player he could be good enough to turn around an offense that doesn’t have one established “good” player.
That’s ridiculous.
The monster at the end of this blog.
My argument is that certain rookies have been good enough ...
to turn around a sub-par offense. Whether or not several of those rookies have happened to land on teams that had other good players, as well, is irrelevant.
“Turn around” does not necessarily mean leading it to score 1,000 runs …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
No, your arguement is that certain rookies
have been good enough to turn around a sub-par offense when they have help. CarGon doesn’t have that luxury.
The monster at the end of this blog.
No it's not ...
I never said that …
If Ted Williams or Albert Pujols, circa their rookie years, were inserted into the A’s offense, do you disagree that it would become better than average?
If you disagree—well, you’re wrong, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
If you agree—then what ridiculous piece of minutia are you basing your disagreement on?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Yes you did
Every specific example (save Paige whom I couldn’t find) was on a team that had quality help in the line-up. Ted Williams had a HOFer to lean on for crying out loud!
The A’s don’t have that quality help. Buck might be one of those guys, same with Barton and Cust. Might.
You said it yourself, Pujols had help when he came up with St. Louis. Veteran help, ie guys who’d been around the block.
That structure does not exist in the current Oakland line-up. The only way adding a rookie Albert Pujols to the line-up could change the offense from below-average to above average is if a couple other guys stepped up.
Who is that going to be devo? Give me the names of the guys on Oakland’s roster we can count on to produce with the bat.
Solve that problem first and then we can speculate how great CarGon could be.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Do you disagree with the math I outlined above ...
about how adding Pujols rookie level production would change the offense?
It’s basic algebra, so I assume you don’t.
Basically I’m assuming that the team is a bunch of basically average to slightly below average hitters. I further assume that it is more than likely that any players who do not live up to that will be more or less balanced out by players who exceed it.
Add one great player to 8 slightly below average players and you have an above average offense. Ask the Angels, they can verify my math … of course, they’ll then burn the intern at the stake who they assigned to do the calculations …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
And do you disagree with the fact
that Buck isn’t hitting? Neither is Cust. Barton is struggling to qualify as below-average for a 1B.
In fact the best hitter in the Oakland line-up, in terms of OPS, is Bobby Crosby. Do you think there’s a chance in Hell I’m going to believe in Crosby in 2008?
The A’s current roster is not filled with slightly below average hitters. You’ve got some serious black holes to deal with.
The monster at the end of this blog.
If this lineup is currently so bad ...
then how is it 7th in the league in runs/game and how has it posted a very slightly below league average 99 OPS+?
I’ll tell you … while Buck has been atrocious and Cust and Hannahan have been poor, everyone else has been average or better …
I wouldn’t count on BoCro keeping up his semi-torrid pace, either … but Buck has a lot more room for improvement than Crosby does for falling off …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
You know exactly why the A's are 7th in the league
They’ve hit incredibly well with runners in scoring position.
Suddenly clutch exists?
The monster at the end of this blog.
Hmm ... didn't say that ...
so that’ll explain a few of those runs … but lets focus on the 99 OPS+ ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Top 5 A's in terms of OPS
Crosby
Barton
Suzuki
R. Sweeney
Ellis
I know you said OPS+ but I’m not on that page right now. Let’s see here, we’ve got a guy playing over his head, 3 guys with less then half a season of big league experience and Ellis.
Which one’s playing the Jimmy Fox role?
The monster at the end of this blog.
Umm ... Kurt Suzuki ...
(that’s not a serious answer, btw)
Why, exactly, would someone need to play the Jimmy Foxx role? Sure, it would be great if someone did … but if we had Jimmy Foxx to go along with Albert Pujols’ bat in the outfield, to go along with a bunch of average players, we’d score about 900 runs and win 95-100 games.
That’s not turning the offense around, that’s revolutionizing it.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Why?
You’re trying to duplicate the formula that led you to list all those guys to begin with.
4 of the 5 rookies had good or better hitters with them in the line-up. That’s just the reality of their rookie experience. Putting CarGon in a worse situation would demand that he out-perform Pujols and Williams and that’s not going to happen.
If that’s the expectation, if that’s the bar you set then you are setting Gonzalez up for failure.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Why, exactly, would he have to out perform them?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
If the talent surrounding CarGon is weaker
then the talent that surrounded Williams or Pujols then in order to affect the same amount of overall improvement Gonzalez would have to out produce the other two.
BTW, if Suzuki really was the next Foxx (thank you for the spelling lesson) then I’d be tempted to declare Kurt to be Beane’s best draft pick ever.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Better than Jeremy Brown?
But, see, that’s where you’re wrong.
If CarGon adds 50 runs to the lineup (roughly the same as Pujols), he adds 50 runs to the lineup (and roughly 5 wins to the team)—it doesn’t matter if you’re adding it to a 500 run team or a 1000 run team (okay … it matters a little, at the extremes, 50 runs would actually be worth almost twice as much to the 500 run team)
Actually, that last point leads me to realize, adding Pujols’ rookie bat would help a lesser team, say the 2008 A’s, more than it would the superior team, say, the 2001 Cardinals … so, not only are you wrong—the exact opposite is actually true … wow, how does that feel? ; )
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
It would sort of even out though
He’d add more total runs to a high-run team, because there would be more baserunners around, but those runs would have less value.
Of course, it remains true that you are entirely correct in this dispute with grover…
The A's colors are green and gold.
Is that really true?
Since the 50 runs I’m referencing are based on him replacing a roughly bench level player? eg, wouldn’t it not matter, as long as the player he’s replacing is held constant, since the surrounding lineup factors would essentially be built into the baseline?
Come to think of it, wouldn’t it actually be less for the better team, since he would likely be replacing a better player?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
I think it would
I wasn’t taking into account replacing a better player, which would obviously be a big deal.
I think that replacing a bad player with A-Rod in a 900 run offense would net more runs than replacing a bad player with A-Rod in a 700-run offense, but I could be wrong, and it’s not such a big deal. It’s definitely true that a marginal run is worth more to an averageish offensive team than to a 900 run team. I’m not seeing how surrounding lineup factors are built into the baseline, as the offensive metrics are based on league averages, but should be different for different offenses, at least as far as I understand it.
The A's colors are green and gold.
That makes sense ...
if one had the data, it actually wouldn’t be that hard to look into …
Not to diminish some of the brilliant breakthroughs some of the analysts have made—but I very much believe, the great majority of the difference between the folks who do that semi professionally or more and some of the rest of us is access to data.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
First you block me from pimp slapping Foolish
And now you side with devo when he’s wrong.
We all agree that Gonzalez doing a Pujols is almost entirely wishful thinking. We all agree the Gonzalez can’t magically make Cust or Buck or Barton start to hit more.
Even if CarGon did come up and be a monster he’d still be the only threat in the line-up. One guy can get pitched around.
We saw it, we lived it in 2006. If you’ve got two productive hitters you can stay afloat.
It’s telling that every example devo gave in his list had another hitter with him in the line-up to help pick up the slack from the lesser performers. Most of the rookies had more then one other good hitter in the line-up.
Devo can’t give CarGon 1 name.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Over the years here
I’ve learned the iron-clad rule: when devo and grove have arguments, devo is always right. You might have better luck debating him on trade policy or religion instead of baseball…
The A's colors are green and gold.
Seeing as monkeyball and I
were the only two voices arguing against Kendall I think we just disproved your iron-clad rule. Not to mention he’s wrong on this issue.
Although I certainly tip my cap to devo, he’s one of the toughest I’ve faced.
The monster at the end of this blog.
That was your finest hour
and you had that one, while I didn’t. But still, 3 years ago… I’m pretty glad that we have Crosby instead of Cezar Izturis…
The A's colors are green and gold.
3 good weeks
Been there, done that with Crosby.
Why don’t you ask devo to give a name, it’ll settle the arguement completely in his favor.
You talk about Gonzalez adding 50 runs, well tell me this bright eyes… who’s he driving in? When Gonzalez hits a lead-off double who’s going to knock him in?
Give me one name, should be simple enough. You don’t need metrics to give me a name just look at the roster.
The monster at the end of this blog.
uh, ok...
The reason you’re wrong is that this “give me one name” stuff is incredibly stupid. You demanding devo/me to name some awesome hitter=you don’t understand how offense works. Crosby is not a good hitter, but he’s sure as fuck better than Izturis…
The A's colors are green and gold.
How is it stupid?
Every rookie devo gave had a good hitter or two in the line-up to help out. That’s just the way it is.
Gonzalez would not have that support in Oakland, he wouldn’t have an established presence to help him.
The difference is Ted Williams and Albert Pujols weren’t asked to do it alone. Right now that’s exactly what we’d be asking Gonzalez to do.
It’s like we’re asking him to be better then those other guys because we want him to perform as well in a tougher environment.
The monster at the end of this blog.
See that's a discussion that might have gone somewhere ...
actually, no, it wouldn’t have … since there’s nothing anyone could have really said … that’s an interesting theory … it might be true, might now … can’t really say for sure given the information available to us.
But, you, grover, specifically said that it was not about how it would affect the play of the rookie in question—you said it was about the lineup as a whole.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
As I understand you
A great rookie performance could add 50 runs to the Team total. Every example you gave played in a line-up that was stronger then the one that currently resides in Oakland.
Your general idea is that the great player could help cover for the weaknesses in the roster and he can to an extent. But the examples you gave all featured a great rookie supported by another hitter nearly as good or better then the rookie in question.
In short, there was more greatness to spread around to the weak spots.
The monster at the end of this blog.
So what?
If you’re now arguing what you’re saying that you’re not arguing (that the lineup affects the performance of the rookie in question) then who cares?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
What?
Of course dropping Pujols in a line-up of Juan Pierre’s is going to affect his overall production but I didn’t think that’s what we were arguing about.
My wife calls, this conversation is over for the night.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I don't see what the other
hitters have to do with anything. Is he going to crumble under pressure because the
A’s have a bunch of a bit below average players instead of a few great ones and a some bad ones? That doesn’t make sense. It’s not even worth discussing, really. Whatever the rest of the team does just doesn’t have much of anything to do with Gonzalez.
The A's colors are green and gold.
I'm not saying I agree with him on it ...
but it’s similar to the idea that some players can’t play in New York—can’t take the pressure and attention.
If a superstar rookie is brought up to play on a team with other superstars, Mark McGwire, Jim Edmonds, Jimmy Foxx, etc, he likely won’t get the same amount of attention or feel the same amount of pressure and responsibility for the team’s success.
The idea isn’t without its logic—I don’t know if it’s ever been tested, though …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
I don't think that's what he's saying though,
regardless of the merits of that. He’s insisting that there can’t be a star performance without some other star performance for some reason…
The A's colors are green and gold.
No I'm not
I’m saying 1 star performance doesn’t compensate for 8 bad performances.
The monster at the end of this blog.
1 great performance makes the
offense 1 great performance better, which is a lot.
The A's colors are green and gold.
If it makes you feel any better ...
I will definitely say that you were right on Kendall. I won’t even make any cracks about blind squirrels … you were just flat out right …
On this question, though, while I’m willing to allow for minor fluctuations, based on surrounding lineup factors—if you insert a Pujols level talent into any lineup, it will immediately get much, much better. While some of your ideas may not be completely without merit, on the larger issue, you are just flat out wrong.
That was my attempt at being diplomatic … how’d I do?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Kendall
I only brought him up to disprove the iron-clad rule.
Yes, inserting a Pujols type talent will improve any line-up.
Inserting CarGon will probably improve the A’s line-up. And I only say probably because he’s a rookie… stuff happens.
However, inserting a Pujol type talent into a bad line-up will not raise it to an average level simply because the other 8 guys aren’t carrying their weight. Pujol’s ability to create runs will be negatively affected if he’s got nobody on base to drive in or if no one is able to drive him in when he’s on base.
Talent is one thing, production is also dependent on outside factors.
When the A’s started this season I said offensively, CF and SS were black holes. As it turns out, SS is fine and dandy for now and 3B is a deep, dark pit. I’m not going to trust Crosby to keep this going so don’t bother asking. CF is decent but Cust… oy. I’m a huge fan of Kurt but he’s going to slow down and I have no idea what’s up with Buck. Ellis is a constant and Brown is essentially Stewart Redux.
There isn’t a single productive hitter you can trust to pair with Gonzalez and that is something every guy on your list had his rookie year.
The monster at the end of this blog.
But grover ...
you only named one spot in the lineup that is a “problem” ... every other spot is more than likely going to be close to average or better …
Coming into the season, this lineup projected to be slightly below average. Through 20 games, this lineup is slightly below average.
Where does this insistence that it is actually terrible come from?
Regardless, if you added a player and he made a poor lineup slightly below average, wouldn’t that constitute turning it around?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
The problem, as I see it
Is the good parts from the projected below average offense were supposed to come from inexperienced players like Buck and Barton and Cust. We expected Ellis to be Ellis and we hoped that Hannahan could be adequate and we knew Suzuki would be an improvement over what we had last year and were therefore greatful for whatever he could provide.
The current below average offense is headed by Bobby Crosby… no way does this performance last. (Or at least I’m going to have to see it for 6 months before I believe it.) Ellis is Ellis. Brown has been a pleasant surprise. Where did this Ryan Sweeney come from? Will it last?
What if Cust was a fluke? Is Buck OK? Barton’s struggling a bit although to be honest he’s hitting pretty much like he did during the bulk of his AAA experience. The guys we were expecting to anchor the offense are struggling badly and there’s just enough we don’t know about them that we have to consider a worse case scenario.
Let me ask you this devo, when I was asking for a name why didn’t you say Cust or Buck or Barton?
The monster at the end of this blog.
Why not? Because it's a silly question that doesn't warrant an answer ...
It’s irrelevant. Sure, if a team is bad enough, no player (or even pair or trio of players) could save it.
I mean, duh.
That has nothing, what-so-ever to do with the fact that the player is a rookie—which is the central issue that this entire discussion came from.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
To answer your 2nd question
Turning a poor offense into a below average offense is an improvement but does not constitute turning it around. The goal should be an above average offense, anything less then that and you’re depending on fielding a very good to great pitching staff to compensate.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Which, again, has nothing to do with the rookie status of the player ...
which is the central issue that this conversation is based on.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Got names yet?
For one thing, the odds are so against Gonzalez coming up and doing a Pujols that it’s silly.
Of course, silly happens.
More importantly, your arguement was that CarGon doing a Pujols impression would lift the team from being below average to above average.
You said a rookie could turn around a line-up. Particularly, the A’s line-up
Fact is 4 of the 5 names you brought up had more help in the existing line-up then Gonzalez will have in 2008.
Could Gonzalez provide more punch then say Denorfia? Probably. Would it be enough to convert the offense into an above average machine? No.
Too many key players are underperforming.
So show me who’s going to help Gonzalez convert the A’s offense or shut it down. I asked for names, you haven’t delivered.
The monster at the end of this blog.
We haven't ...
but let’s not complicate things … sometimes grover is feeling grumpy and he needs things explained to him in a patronizing manner …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Before you get too persnickity
Please remember you could have ended all this when I asked you to name the reliable hitters in the A’s current line-up.
All you had to do was give me the 2008 equivalent of Edmonds or Fox.
Still waiting good buddy.
The monster at the end of this blog.
It's Foxx, btw ...
F-O-X-X … with two X’s … that’s good … very good …
His less beastly nickname was Double-X … that’s a good way to remember it …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
I'm trying to address it in the thread above ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Too early
No, not too early in the morning, even though it is.
But yeah way to soon to think about bringing the young man up, and way too much to put the burden of a “struggling” offense on his shoulders.
I'm here to talk about the past.
No ones asking CarGon
to “save” the offense. However hes a big upgrade over Buck ATM.
When will then be now? Soon.
Is he though?
There’s no guarantee he hits any better than Buck is right now in his first few weeks.
I think the current outfield can tread water until Buck gets things going. Sweeney has been playing well, and I think Denorfia has started to find his stroke a little bit. Emil Brown is basically Jay Payton, which isn’t very good, but it’s not going to destroy the offense either.
Once June rolls around, Beane can try to move Emil to free up a spot for Gonzalez or Linden. Until then, let the slumping guys figure things out. A demotion for Buck could do a lot more harm than good.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Apr 20, 2008 1:56 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree with Grover on letting CarGon deal with AAA adjustments
I also think this decision depends to a large extent on the A’s’ plans for him in the OF. If they want him to be a CF, which they’ve insisted all along AFAIK, then he needs more AAA time in CF, no matter how well he’s hitting. If they’re happy having him play RF, then he could probably handle his defensive responsibilities already in the majors and would need less AAA time.
The big question, as it always is with the A’s, is what they would do in the case of an injury—say, if Bad Sweeney tweaks his quad again and needs to go on the DL. Would they call up CarGon or Linden?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
since Linden is not on the 40-man roster
calling him up means they have to move someone off the roster…who might that be? Also, from his ML career he appears to be considered a corner outfielder, not a centerfielder. I think those two factors played a big role in his not making the major league club out of spring training.
I think Fiorentino is that guy
The one who gets the call up here and there. A little like Donnie Murphy last year.
And I agree with that. Linden requires a 40-man spot, CarGon shouldn’t shuffle back and forth. Fiorentino already has ML service and is more of the stopgap than anybody else at this point.
Now, if Sweeney’s leg falls off, that’s a different story. Then you can bring up CarGon and just give him a spot since the player he’s replacing won’t be back in the near future.
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Apr 20, 2008 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
he would be that guy
had he not gotten hit in the facde with a ball. He had surgery to repair a broken nose and facial bones, and is out of commission for a while.
Oh, I missed that.
Well, couldn’t they 60-Day DL HIM and put Linden on the 40-man?
http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/
by thejd44 on Apr 20, 2008 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
yes
but who do they cut when fiorentino is healthy?
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown
my two cents
send buck down, play CarGon in center, brown & sweeney on the corners use denorfia as the fourth guy & DFA the late great Jack Cust. Also DH Linden & Sweeney (mike) if he is still hitting. Do this by mid may if they are playing to win. if not just ride it out. they can’t suck at hitting all year, can they?
"I hurt people I'm a dick" Garry TA
yawn
cargon is in AAA b/c:
-CF defense
-plate discipline
-keeping him for one more year in his prime
has any of that changed in the last 20 days?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
The "keeping him one more year" thing has
At this point he will be an A in 2014. The only question is whether he’ll be a Super Two in 2011 or not, and that’s strictly a matter of money.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I've got an idea
It’s a bit of a radical one, so bear with me – and this isn’t a response specifically to you, just a general thing I started thinking about. It’s really meant to be more tongue-in-cheek than serious and I debated whether or not to come right out and say it first or let people guess. Since a lot of people don’t know I like to go for sarcastic humor a lot I went with the clear explanation.
Here goes.
Let’s abolish all the rules about 40-man and 25-man rosters, minor league options, arbitration, service time and all that.
Whenever a player – ANY player, so even someone like Alex Rodriguez is fair game – has a couple of bad weeks, his team can send him to the minors and replace him with someone who’s playing better.
A couple weeks later, let’s say the guy they called up is playing poorly and the guy they sent down is tearing it up (which wouldn’t be that much of a surprise). They can switch again! Or, if the player they called up is still performing well then by all means, let the man stay and play and do the exchange with someone else!
Just keep sending down the ones who aren’t getting the job done, replace them with the people who are, and you’re bound to win more games than you lose. Then again, if other teams can do the same thing it’s going to balance out somewhere.
Or, teams can continue to allow for the development time they think a player needs. Some, they’re more comfortable with moving up faster because of various reasons. Others, like Carlos Gonzalez, maybe they want to give him more time to fit into what they want him to do, especially since he’s new to the organization.
I read that News and Review link Blez posted and CarGon already said, "I used to swing at everything when I was with the Diamondbacks. But with this team, everybody knows they have a different way to play. They want you to get on base, be more patient. I think that’s going to help me. That’s going to make me a better hitter."
At the game in Sacramento last Wednesday, he was swinging at just about everything but he also got pitches to hit and did things with them. I say let him keep doing that while learning more patience as he goes. When he’s ready he’ll be up here, whether he forces his way to the big club or the A’s give him a shot for another reason. It’s all good.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
jamesvenes.com - Blog
The problem with abolishing 40 man rosters...
If there isn’t a rule limiting how many players a team can control and use then the teams with the bigger wallets will dominate. To use an extreme example, the Yankees could go out and sign the 50 best hitters and pitchers for $25 million a year. Half will be playing in NY and the other half will be in Columbus but all of them will be making $25 million a year and everyone has a chance to get rotated into the NY roster.
How would a team like Oakland fight against that?
Now, that extreme will never happen even if your idea is implimented but that is the direction big money teams will go. Shifting that direction could only hurt the less well off teams.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Scranton Wilkes-Barre now...
...but yeah.
I know the idea has no chance of working at all and would lead to more problems than solutions.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
jamesvenes.com - Blog
The video game roster management theory?
This would be an incredibly bad idea in real life. For one thing, it means totally abolishing the rules about free agency, drafting and player development. So there’s no opportunity for teams to gain an advantage through that area of the game.
Second, as grover points out, this would allow the Yankees to win every season. It would be the 1950s all over again.
Third, it would be terribly stressful for players, who would never know when they’re going to have to pack off to some new city.
Fourth, it would reduce the quality of baseball played in the major leagues. Generally speaking, most “cold streaks” are random chance. If good players are getting sent down for those and replaced with worse players, the quality of play is going to suffer.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Well, I did say it was more...
...tongue-in-cheek than serious.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site
jamesvenes.com - Blog
I agree that the main reason to keep Gonzo
in Sacramento is defense – let him learn CF so he can be our next CFer and not just another good corner OFer. CFers with Gonzo’s offensive potential are Beltran-rare. We might have one.
Sending Buck down makes no sense to me. In a rebuilding/reloading year, you have to stick with your Bucks, Bartons, and Suzukis through thick and thin – they will only get better at the major league level by playing at the major league level and you have to allow them to struggle big time. Example: Dustin Pedroia hit .150 in April/May but was told from the start, “relax, we’re sticking with you no matter what” – and he went on to hit over .300.
In summary, yes Gonzo has outhit the AAA level (and if that were the only issue I’d say bring him up), but he hasn’t learned CF to the point where he is major-league ready and that’s why he needs to stay in Sactown a little longer.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
No
Remember, he was in the same system as Justin Upton and Chris Young.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Fine, I'll call him
Since it’s clear that Bobby still hasn’t turned the corner.
I'm here to talk about the past.
Oh, crap
Todd Linden is now Zonis, too?
And what did we do once we discovered a rift in the fourth dimension? We launched a monkey into it. @('.')@
Makes sense - Zonis does whine an awful lot
on the game threads. And I hear he’s a switch hitter – not that there’s anything right with that.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
No to calling up Gonzales
The A’s have enough O.F. options to keep Gonzales down in AAA. If he continues to pummel PCL pitching for the next month, this will be revisited. Buck needs to be given time to straighten out the batting funk he is currently in. He’s earned this opportunity & the A’s are patient enough to give this to him.
What about Eveland & Smith? Judging by their last two performances, has the A.L. already figured out how to approach these two? Can anyone highlight any differences in the way Eveland & Smith pitched when they threw shutouts & when they gave up some runs. In other words, are their pitches getting up / etc. I realize Eveland was dead-on in his first two starts. Smith in his 2nd start. Will they be above average to what they are capable of, or they going to start getting shelled every other start & have a +4 era?
With Eveland, it was apparently as simple as
“couldn’t grip the ball in cold weather,” which is encouraging. With Smith, he only made one problematic pitch – if Guillen gets out Smith might have a shutout – and he settled down impressively. But when his location isn’t pinpoint, Smith will get hit; just the nature of throwing
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Thanks Nico
I am in & out of my office all day, & at times, I do not have access to any forms of communication. I come back in & poof, Eveland has done well today. It’s encouraging that two of the sextuplets from the D-Backs are IMO kicking ass. On the other hand, Haren is being Haren. I just hope they all can continue & this trade can go down as a win-win for both teams. I have said this before, but the A’s brass have got to be estatic about what the ex-D-Backs are doing. I read most of the posts & the AN comments about what an A’s hitter or pitcher is doing either positively or negatively, is usually spot-on.
I'm with you - the Haren deal looks like
it has a chance to be that classic “win-win” trade where both GMs can say they did great.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The OFs are alright
Brown and Sweeney are hitting over .300, Denorfia is hitting .276, and Buck has nothing left to prove in the minors. Admittedly, Gonzales would likely provide more power, but there’s still the growing pains of adjusting to major league hitting.
Keep ‘em where they are.
Chase Utley is now out-homering the A's
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
However, Joey Devine is outwinning Detroit!
Well, almost.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Space Available
With Keith Foulke being placed on the DL I think we could let Linden up for a shot this week. I’d cut Sweeney and Denorfia’s playing time and see if Linden can produce.
He’s got big league experience and I think we let CarGon get comfortable at Sacto before we put the pressure on him. I think Linden would handle the pressure well as he’s already playing with a chip on his shoulder.
Brown is doing ok, as is sweeney. I think Denorfia could benefit from some everyday play at Sacto to get cranking.
It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
Linden is out of options
so it makes little sense to call him up unless it’s for an extended period of time.
Also, I’m not sure what this has to do with Foulke on the DL, since the A’s will replace him (one presumes) with a pitcher.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Wouldn't we also
need to move someone off of the 40 man roster to get Linden on it?
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
That would be easy enough to do
Chavez, Richie Robnett or Jeff Fiorentino could go on the 60 day DL. In fact, if the A’s are convinced that Denorfia and Ryan Sweeney are an adequate combo to hold down CF until CarGon is ready they could trade/waive/release Fiorentino altogether.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Isn't Robnett close to returning?
Actually, now that I think about it, I don’t really know how the 60-day DL works for players who aren’t on the big-league roster.
Unrelated note: I’ve been having technical issues with AN all morning. It keeps asking me to join the community over again, and there are inexplicable scroll bars popping up in comments where there’s only a heading and no plain text.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I noticed the scroll bars last night.
I haven’t had the log in issue yet fortunately.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
I just had the log-in thing happen to me
I popped back to the Front Page, came back in and all was groovy. Send a buzz to Blez if it keeps up.
Like I could promise to not be mean!
Robnett had surgery about a week and a half ago and the last thing I saw on him said a 6-8 week recovery.
The monster at the end of this blog.
me too
good call on promising not to be mean grover, you meanie ;)
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown
As for the 60-day DL/big league roster issue
If nothing else, the A’s could utilize the open spot with Foulke’s injury to “call-up” one of Robnett or Fiorentino and then immediately place him on the 60-day DL.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Or Herrera, he is the Minor League Rich Harden, he will never be healthy.
I don’t even know if he would get claimed at this point if he was ourighted free and clear to Sacramento. That would free up a 40 man slot. Fiorentino might make it through as well.
by theblackpearl on Apr 21, 2008 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
not so sure about fiorentino
but herrera almost certainly would, imo
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown
I'd like him up sooner rather than later.
I don’t think he’s going to learn much in AAA, and think he will instantly outproduce any other outfielder on the team, since Jack Cust is an OINO.
So it goes.
OINO?
Is that Greek for “lush”?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
It appears that this diary jinxed him
In other news, does this juju taste terrible to anyone else?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

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