Athletics Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: The 2009-2010 Card Chronicle Big East basketball preview

Game Changers?

First let me just say this; this post isn't meant to compare and contrast players by picking apart every little statistical category, so lets not go there.  You'll understand in a minute.

I've been reading a few comments today about the A's hitters' development and organizational approach, which got me thinking. When I casually take a look around the league, or watch *gasp* Baseball Tonight there are tons of budding offensive stars out there that can carry a struggling team, and flat out dominate the opposition.  These guys can change the whole complexity of a game. I'm not referring to veterans like Vlad or Pujols,   I'm talking about guys that have only been in the league a few years like Matt Holliday, Jeff Francoeur, Justin Morneau, Ryan Howard, Miguel Cabrera, Chase Utley, Mark Teireira, Alex Rios, Hanley Ramirez, David Wright and Prince Fielder.  There are plenty more, but I don't want to list guys like the Upton bros, Evan Longoria, Troy Tulowitzki, and Alex Gordon, that havn't really had any time to prove themselves.  

When I look at our A's, I don't see any of these guys.  I see a lot of very average players in Crosby, Buck, Denorfia, Sweeney, Hannahan, and Barton.  These guys are still young and I have a lot of hope, especially for Buck, Barton, and CarGon.  But this still doesn't change the fact we haven't had a real star come along for about 6 or 7 years, and even then, Giambi and Tejada's success is somewhat tainted due to the steroid allegations.  For so long I wanted Chavez to be that star for us, but he's never really seemed to get much better than he was in his first few seasons.

From these observations I've come up with a few questions, and I figured it would be interesting to get AN's opinion.  First, from the guys I previously mentioned, would you credit their success more to their natural talent, or their franchises development and coaching?  I didn't have the time to see if these guys were traded around or stayed with the same organization until they were called up, but that would be some interesting information to know.  Expanding on this, would it be wrong to blame Beane and the organization for not finding the talented players in the draft, or improperly handling our organizations talent as it moved through A ball?  In other words, could someone like Buck, Barton, or Crosby be a better player if they came up through the Rockies, Marlins, or Twins organizations?  When I see Crosby making the same mistakes year after year, or Chavez not really getting any better than he was in 2001, I tend to think so. 

I really enjoy watching the 2008 A's.  Probably more so than any team since 2003.  It just seems like it will be hard for this team to compete for a championship in 08' or the coming years without a real offensive star.  Regardless of the new guys, the offense hasn't been anything but average for about the last four years anyway.  Nearly every World Series champion this decade has rode some dominant hitters there, minus the Dbacks and CWS, who had some exceptional pitching.  Hopefully Barton, CarGon, and Buck can play a part in that, but only time will tell.   

 

  

 

 

 

   

0 recs  |  Comment 8 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

I come from what you might call the Steven Pinker school of hitting

which is to say, I generally figure guys are who they are and there’s not much you can do to change them. The best thing you can do is put them in a position to succeed and then get out of the way.

The A’s have had to draft guys based on the probability of them making it to the majors. They’re not the Red Sox, who can develop one good player a year and be happy about it because they can buy the rest of their roster anyway. So the team is stuck hoping that they get lucky and someone exceeds his perceived upside.

Three other things: first, the lack of expenditure in Latin America and Asia in the last 5 years really was a grave strategic error that set the team way back; second, I think the team has focused, specialized to some extent if you will, on developing pitching because of the park and because it’s more expensive to buy in free agency, which is a valid thing to do; third, as lame as baseball’s draft is at predicting who will make it to the bigs, the first few picks are overwhelmingly more likely to be stars than any other players, and the A’s haven’t had a pick that high since Mulder (who worked out OK).

BTW, maybe I’m just jaded, but the title sounds like a Pontiac commercial.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Apr 18, 2008 4:39 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

The A’s are taking “safe” picks because they simply can’t afford to miss very often. They trade ceiling for sure thing.

What Beane has done this offseason is trade for a couple of those ceiling guys in CarGon, DLS, and Gio.

What will be interesting to watch – and very important for this franchise – is if those guys are not going to reach their ceiling (or anywhere close to it), will Beane recognize this before anybody else and move them to another team before they can be a bust. Many times I find little things like this more exciting than the on-field game.

http://bocropleasestopswingingatbadpitches.blogspot.com/

by thejd44 on Apr 20, 2008 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I Agree with you...

that our seemingly bright future is currently without a Ryan Howard type of player. I think Barton, Buck, and Gonzalez will be above average offensive players, but it doesn’t look like we have anyone who’s going to be a 40+ homer guy.

But I don’t think Beane is at all done shaping our future. The pitching looks stacked, which is pretty great considering how hard good, young pitching is to come by, and it’s time to look at the offense, particularly in the infield.

By the end of the season traded players might include:

Blanton, Embree(though he certainly won’t bring back a Ryan Howard), Street(If he stops giving up bombs), and Ellis(though he could be cheap enough and good enough to just sign).

and if they get healthy: Duke (if we get lucky), Chavez(if we get really lucky), and Harden(if we get really really lucky).

and if they get good: M. Sweeney, Foulke, and Crosby(Maybe?)

As far as the get healthy’s and the get good’s go, I think they’re gone at the first decent offer.

So after this season, I think our future offense will look better, though, to get the type of player you’re talking about, we might just have to get lucky. Organizations don’t usually give up players they think will be that good. But here’s to hoping for Jay Bruce! Though we do need to work on the infield I think there’s room to put a big bat in left field. I think it’d be worth sticking with CarGon in center to have three big bats in the outfield. There’s also a spot for the “game changer” at DH, as much as I love Cust, I don’t think he’ll be a permanent solution.

I am also really pulling for Landon Powell to come back healthy. If his knees are good, he’s said to be a better defender than Suzuki, and it would be huge for our offense to get a plus bat from the catcher, and Suzuki could fetch some good prospects in a trade.

by WhiteElephants on Apr 18, 2008 5:54 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

There are three problems in drafting guys like you describe (and really, that’s the primary method of getting them other than “lucking out” in foreign scouting).

1) Those guys are high risk sorts, for every one that makes it, many don’t pan out.

2) They’re expensive to sign. Most guys with this sort of talent will demand high signing bonuses that the A’s can’t afford to give. Reason the A’s can’t commit themselves t to that is, as PT mentioned above, they need to maximize their major league potential in each draft which results in fewer high reward guys and getting a bunch of lower risk guys who won’t necessarily wow you, but have a much better chance of reaching the majors.

3) These guys get expensive quickly. Aside from the bonus, when these guys perform to their higher level, they cost a lot more to sign long term (and all the dangers that entails if they fold and/or get injured). And when/if they reach arbitration they can unpredictably cripple your budget. The A’s can’t afford that risk, so they load up on mid-level talent and try for a balance of above average, non-great players to fill their offense, with the typical focus on undervalued talents that can be exploited while costing less.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Apr 18, 2008 10:41 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hmm,
I’m talking about guys that have only been in the league a few years like Matt Holliday, Jeff Francoeur, Justin Morneau, Ryan Howard, Miguel Cabrera, Chase Utley, Mark Teireira, Alex Rios, Hanley Ramirez, David Wright and Prince Fielder.
I see a lot of very average players in Crosby, Buck, Denorfia, Sweeney, Hannahan, and Barton. These guys are still young and I have a lot of hope, especially for Buck, Barton, and CarGon. But this still doesn’t change the fact we haven’t had a real star come along for about 6 or 7 years, and even then, Giambi and Tejada’s success is somewhat tainted due to the steroid allegations.

I don’t think your comparison is fair here. Where is Swisher? Swisher, and NOT Buck / Barton / Sweeney / Patrol Craft is really the fair comparison to the players from the other teams you have listed. He was drafted around the same time as them.

Furthermore, you’re overrating some of your players there. I like Francoeur, Brave though he is, and even spend time occasionally defending him, but he projects as really nothing all that special. His lack of plate discipline is a huge liability, even the progressive improvements that he has made. At this point, he projects maybe as a Vernon Wells, without the D. Swisher is bettter offensively, better defensively, and is likely to be better in the future.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Apr 19, 2008 9:27 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

at a cowboy-themed brothel in Chicago

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on Apr 19, 2008 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

BAH, AN 3.0

Just among Braves players under the age of 30, ie excluding Chipper, I’d take Kelly Johnson and Brian McCann over Francoeur.

Swisher is the same age as Alex Rios and just as good. Rios struggled for a number of years. IIRC, sometime in 2005-2006, his hitting coach finally persuaded him to change his approach: to hit more flyballs, and less groundballs. This can be seen in his numbers; from 2006 onwards his groundball rate is at around <= 40%, whereas before that it was >= 50%

The main issue though I have with your comp, is that you have basically listed some of the best young offensive players from around the league, Francoeur notwithstanding, from every MLB team, and then said that the A’s players do not compare. That would seem pretty obvious.

I mean, look at things this way, the Angels do not have any guys on your list.

But, seriously, it’s hard to tell just how much a team is responsible for developing a player. You have David Wright on your list. A stupendous player. In that same time, the Mets have also produced Jose Reyes. So, they’re great at developing players? Maybe not. Look at the number of young talented and useful players the team has basically pissed away in recent years: Jesus Flores, Lastings Milledge, Jeff Keppinger, Ruben Gotay, Brian Bannister, Heath Bell, Henry Owens, Matt Lindstrom. Granted, some are pitchers, and none are yet stars. Milledge certainly was not really handled well. Rushed through the minors, and then when he was in the majors, neglected and not well used. If the team is good at developing hitters, why could it not recognise that Flores is a useful player, and should not be lost in a rule 5 draft? Or why trade Keppinger for Gotay, only to lose Gotay later on to a waiver claim?

Are the Twins better at developing hitters? Who knows? David Ortiz famously said that the Twins tried to “make me hit like a leetle beetch”. Ortiz certainly appeared to become a much better hitter once he was freed from the Twins.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Apr 19, 2008 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Oakland Athletics.

Community Guidelines ANcillary Terms
Start posting about the Athletics »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Ph3spec_small
Having fun with Pythagoras, or, who got lucky during 2009
Dsc00764_small
DLD - 11/07/2009 - How to Keep Yourself Occupied in the Off-Season
527918550406_0_bg_small
2010 Off-Season Blueprint
Depaulbluedemons_small
Community Prospect List #15
Super_grover_small
2010 Offseason Primer

Recent FanPosts

Depaulbluedemons_small
Zonis's Off Season Charter
Bill_king_small
AFL Rising Stars Showcase Tonight on MLBN @ 5PM
Me_at_att_park_small
Greener Grass, Episode 4: The Biggest Off Season (Potential) Decision Doesn't Involve Free Agents
Oaklandathletics_small
Hardy to Minnesota. What's with the early offseason trades?
Tyler_at_maya_school_small
Happy 6th Birthday, AN!
Oaklandathletics_small
facebook Members: Keep the A's in OAKLAND
Bill_king_small
Organizational Statistics: Winter Leagues

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS


Managers

Tyler_at_maya_school_small Tyler Bleszinski

08-_the_author_small 67MARQUEZ

Baseball_small baseballgirl

Poochini-butt_in_box_2_small Nico

As_kings_cal_small louismg

Editors

Countdown_small Taj Adib

Ziegler160px_small Flashfire

527918550406_0_bg_small notsellingjeans