Barry! Sign Barry!
by mrrickyg on Apr 12, 2008 1:43 AM PDT
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I don't want to jump to any conclusions about the A's competitiveness, but I had them pegged as an 80-85 win team with a chance of catching some lucky breaks and finishing better (as opposed to last year's catching all the bad breaks and finishing worse). They are off to a good start, but I fear our offensive production is a mirage--They aren't going to consistently pile up 9th inning runs, or allowing 7 and 8 runs and winning. Fortunately Chavez will be an upgrade over Hannahan, and Gonzalez might be ready soon.
Unfortunately, Jack Cust has been a complete sieve as pitchers have figured out how to sap his power and strike him out even more than before, and he's probably the only LF in the league who Barry Bonds is a clear defensive upgrade over. Signing Bonds to play 50 games in LF and to DH 50 games would be a huge upgrade in the middle of the lineup, shouldn't cost too much given current market demand and an assumption that Bonds would rather continue to play in front of friendly Bay Area fans as much as possible, and shouldn't block OF prospects too much, particularly if he plays mostly DH (sitting vs Lefties to allow Sweeney to play). Should we be out of the race in July, he could also prove to be a valuable trading chip to pick up nice prospect.
I'll pledge to avoid buying A's tickets until they show some interest in signing Bonds, and I pledge to buy a 6-pack or 20-pack of season tickets should they show interest. Anybody else with me?
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No, not really.
I like watching this young team do well. I don't need some old (but still talented) prick messing shit, especially chemistry, up.
"You're just jealous. You wish you had a rally animal..." -CardinalWraith
chemistry
for all the knocks on Bonds' clubhouse chemistry, it always seemed other Giants were benefiting from his presence in the lineup and learning from his batting approach. Though don't know how the Mike Sweeney-Barry Bonds situation might play out (competing for playing time/Bonds accused his brother of providing substance, no?).
Bonds is an asshole, but his number one priority is winning. And most of the guy's assholishness is from a desire to be left alone as opposed to being a selfish player on the field.
And from an economic standpoint, he'll put more butts in the seats which means more money to pay players next year. Seems like a competitive but no-pressure A's team is the best possible place fit for both him and the A's. And if the s#$# hits the fan, just release or trade him. I don't wanna spend more than a pro-rated $4 or $5 mil of course, and a figure like that shouldn't be a stretch for Lew Wolffe.
Mark Sweeney and Mike Sweeney
are not related.
Also, both Bonds and Mark Sweeney have publicly stated that they have no problems with each other, and the situation was misreported and misrepresented by the press.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
lol
mike askin we haven't gone to an a's game in years. what the hell are you doing up at 2 am reading my insomniac posts the freaking SECOND i join?
Don't believe him.
We've never seen "mikeA" before. Whoever this guy is, he's clearly stalking you.
"Huston, you're hot!'' said first baseman Dan Johnson, dressed as a bottle of mustard.
you're thinking of mike A
And what did we do once we discovered a rift in the fourth dimension? We launched a monkey into it. @('.')@
Apparently, most fans have pledged not to buy tickets either way,
so given that the current attendance is 15,000 for a weekend game, what the heck? Might as well get a few more walks and HRs!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
i'm sure your ticket purchases can be replaced by one of the thousands who would pay to watch bonds hit
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
I pledge not to buy any tickets
until I have enough money to buy tickets
2008 Oakland Athletics...more than meets the eye!
by OptimistPrime on Apr 12, 2008 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I have tickets for Friday
And I pledge that I'm sure as hell not boycotting or anything if they sign Bonds. I already paid for the damn things. I do pledge to boo the everloving shit out of him, though. I wouldn't boo him if he was signed by the Royals, though. I'd just point and laugh.
It's also funny
Team struggles at home against Boston. People cry, "Sign Barry!"
Team wins six of seven and looks like they might do a bit better than expected. People cry, "Sign Barry!"
Maybe not the same people and for different reasons, but I'd still rather see what the people we have can do instead of bringing that guy into this clubhouse.
F'real
And for all of you TV-only fans who don't go to games for your various reasons, forget those reasons and go to a goddamn baseball game. I've been to two great games (unfortunately both losses) and I'll be one of those truly faithful 9k there on a cold Tuesday night vs Tampa Bay whether the A's are ten games under or over .500. If they sign Bonds I'll still be there, but I'll wear a paper bag on my head every time he comes up- can't stand that guy.
by Brian in 317 on Apr 12, 2008 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions
I've been to one game -
The A's have won six of their last seven, and I went to the one loss. So I'm staying home for the good of the team. Well, and they're in Cleveland.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm one of those TV fans.
I went to my first game of the season last weekend and had some drunk guy yelling in my ear the whole game. There were many kids around and this guy had absolutely no censor. I'll definitely go to my fair share of games this year, but I'll be a TV fan until I can afford better seats.
H-A-N-A-H-A-N. Hanahan.
Sadly...
these events happen in the wealthy-people seats, too. It's a reality of being in a public place these days.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Apr 12, 2008 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Um
There's a pretty obvious explanation for this.
They (and I, since I'm one of them) think that signing Bonds would be a good idea. Irrelevant of the random ebbs and flows of the season.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I could go either way.
He'd instantly be the best hitter on the team, but he'd also push the second-best hitter on the team (Mike Sweeney) to the bench, unless we commit to playing him in the outfield. If Jack Cust still sucks this much in mid-May, then maybe it will be worth pulling the trigger.
So it goes.
If you're using sample sizes from this year
you might note that Sweeney has a .675 OPS this season.
I'm not even remotely sold on the notion that he should be starting RIGHT NOW over Denorfia. There's no way in hell he's the second-best hitter on the team. His bat is noticeably slowed from the days when he was hitting .300 and putting up 25 homers a year.
He's a platoon partner for the three power spots (1B, DH, LF) with Bonds on the team, no more-- and this is not a travesty. Two good weeks in spring training should not win a guy a lineup slot at the expense of other guys who are with the team for the long haul.
I like the guy's attitude a lot, and I think it made a great deal of sense to bring him on board as a kind of impromptu second hitting coach and veteran presence-- but neither of those really require him starting every day.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
An interesting anciallary question
on the "do you want Bonds" issue is how, and how effectively, he is staying ready to hit live pitching. It's like he's playing in the minors somewhere, or has hit live pitching anywhere since last September. If he signed with the A's, or the Mariners, or whoever, right now and joined the active roster in a couple weeks, how good would he be for his first 100 ABs? Hard to know, as he is such an unusual talent.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Along the same lines,
you figure that the longer he's out of the game and unsigned this season, the worse his transition process will be.
It's not like he'll be able to sign in July after not seeing live pitching for 9-10 months and suddenly be "ready" on Day 1.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Apr 12, 2008 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Never, Never, Never, ad infinitum
I would rather watch the A's develop for the future than to see that egotistical cancerous s.o.b. wearing green&gold. Look at his history and remember that his team-mates at ASU unamamously voted to have him kicked off the team. Same dislike on the Pirates. Samething across the Bay. His signing would destroy the A's clubhouse. Is there no patience amongst A's fans? Are you pro-Bonds signing fans willing to play Faust? But most of all, Lew Wolff would not be willing to chance the wrath of Bud Selig.
Could you elaborate on the ASU story?
I've never heard that.
"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe
It's certainly an interesting article -
what stands out to me is a coach deciding that an appropriate punishment for calling a black teammate a "n*****" is to run 6 miles. What's the punishment for raping a cheerleader - run 10 miles? My guess - without knowing - is that there was a fair amount of institutionalized racism in the ASU program, completely independent of bringing aboard a first-class a-hole (who happened to be black) in Bonds. Doesn't sound like a fun environment to be around - and Brock sounds like (and he was coaching when I was broadcasting in the Pac-10 so I'm familiar with him) the worst of the "old-school" types.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Although 6 miles might be a little light Nico, as someone who has been called the
N word, there is no way you should use that example and being raped in the same comparative.
by theblackpearl on Apr 12, 2008 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't know what the right comparison would be,
but just the whole idea of "bad boy - go run some laps" for displaying prejudice against a teammate seems weird to me, whether it's 2 laps around the field, 6 miles, or whatever. Perhaps I should have said "holding up a one-legged nun at gun point". Bad, bad boy - go run lots and lots of laps!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Jeff Pearlman being everyone's idea
of a perfectly unbiased source, after all.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Four fundamental flaws in your theories...
1) Chavez may hit 20-30 HRs a season, but he's no longer a critical or valuable hitter.
2) Cust may be a bad outfielder relative to everybody else, but I have seen him run down and/or catch a couple balls that I don't believe Bonds would have gotten even close to.
3) I seriously doubt Bonds would sign cheap. His ego would prevent it.
4) He also would not be a trading chip come July. I'd bet he'd insist on a no-trade clause, or would just retire if he were traded to a team he didn;t want to go to.
I'm against signing him simply because there's too much distraction and baggage all around. I'd rather watch the kids play.
"Rebuilding" is loser mentality.
I absolutely cannot see him being used as a trading chip...
...especially if he's only just signed with the team and been with them a couple months. He's certainly not going to fetch anything valuable when you factor in the speculation the league is in collusion against anyone signing him now.
I would just as soon see his career end as of last season.
I for one, don't want him, but the collusion angle is the best way to get him cheap. Say to
the MLBPA, see we offered him a contract, although a low ball one, but he declined, so there is no collusion.
by theblackpearl on Apr 12, 2008 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
It's not as easy as that.
Otherwise it would be impossible to prove collusion.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
It IS virtually impossible to prove collusion
The only way to do it is if you're idiotic enough to do what the owners did in the late 80s, which effectively amounted to standing around in front of the courthouse yelling "we're colluding" at the top of their lungs.
Basically, to prove it you need either direct evidence of it (which was available in the late '80s in transcripts of the owners' meetings and such) or a very well-developed fact pattern (also available in the 80s, when large numbers of players were being offered crummy money by their own team and no money by anyone else).
Neither of these will be available in the Bonds case, because the owners have plausible deniability and Bonds is a sample size of one.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Chavez's OPS+ last season was 98
That's LAST SEASON. When he was totally and utterly debilitated by injuries. He was still all of 2% worse than a league-average hitter.
I'm not really sure what that has to do with signing Bonds, but it's sufficiently wrong that it demands refutation.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
No, it isn't.
Statistcs are great and helpful and all that, but they're not the be-all-and-end-all when telling a story.
"Rebuilding" is loser mentality.
ok and the story is...
...Chavez still plays great defense and if he has a season on par with last year is still a huge upgrade relative to the production they are getting their now. And if he comes back moderately healthy, there is no reason to throw out all hope for .275/.360/.480 type performance which would be a godsend for what they need now.
And the Bonds effect for anyone who bats in front of him is an important statistic. He'd really help Sweeney (or Emil Brown, who can hit lefties pretty well) by batting 5th and protecting him.
Agree completely about the defense...
...and while I can't disagree with his offense possibly being an upgrade... relatively... I have just lost all faith in his ability to come through in the clutch... when it's needed most. Yeah, his numbers at the end of the season don't look all that bad on paper, but the game is played on the field and I have far too many painful memories of weak pop ups or clueless flailing third strikes when he was need most. Numbers aren't the full story, it's *when* those numbers are produced that matters also.
"Rebuilding" is loser mentality.
hehehe
"Clutchness" is a debate we can't settle in the forum of course, but I will say I'm an avid reader of firejoemorgan.com. But how many big hits has he gotten against the Yankees over the years? He just hasn't been healthy in a few years :(
It is in the last 2-3 years...
...that I've really soured on Chavez. I still think he has value as a #6 or lower batter to compliment an otherwise strong lineup, but I feel he lacks the mental toughness to bat 3-4-5. He's certainly not hard-wired to be "the man" that an offense is built around.
"Rebuilding" is loser mentality.
OK.
Nonetheless-- I have numbers. You don't. My argument 1, your argument 0.
Your move.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Oooooohhhhhh.... numbers
I'm seeing beams of light and hearing harps from the heavens. Phffft!
Steadfast arrogance does not an argument make... or "win".
"Rebuilding" is loser mentality.
I'll assume you're conceding the point then
since you're now resorting to ad hominem tactics.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
fwiw
i don't advocate signing him if he's either a.) more than $4m or $5m or b.) demands a no-trade clause. Limited no-trade clause is fine, but there's gotta be a healthy list of AL contenders before I'm willing to demand the A's plunk down any more than that before I buy tickets.
The main thing is, he doesn't really block any prospects and signing him this year helps their competitiveness while sacrificing little, if any, of their future. If Barry's ego gets in the way of that type of arrangement, you are correct it just wouldn't work. However, I would think it MUST be somewhat appealing to a.) play at home for a "contender" (Hard to really call them a contender, but I must admit I didn't believe much of the doomsday talk as the only offseason lost that hurt more than a little was Haren, and I suspected it might be made up with advances in younger pitching+better injury luck+better W/L performance with respect to their run differential)and b.) stay in front of a very friendly home crowd.
The guy has always gotten a much worse rap than he deserves-- The media has only EVER reported negative things (not that there are many positive, off the field things). Other players who were just as big of assholes but not nearly as good got left alone either because they were white or not good at baseball. He's the posterchild scapegoat of steroids when there are plenty of other guys playing now (mostly white) who are left alone. Through all those years there were not many articles written in defense of the guy's desire to just be left alone, or simply devoted to all the amazing things he did on the field. In my opinion Jeff Kent was a far bigger asshole, and just as abrasive to other teammates. The Milton Bradley incident in LA sort of proved that-- For all of Milton Bradley's fiery problems on the field, every teammate he's ever had (save Kent) has described him as an excellent teammate. Meanwhile Kent broke his wrist riding his motorcycle and widened whatever gap Bonds had made in the clubhouse bu constantly being willing to talk about how much he disliked Barry, or by instigating dugout fights. And Barry has gone down in history as the unlikeable one, even though Barry didn't complain one bit the year he a.) generated all of Kent's MVP statistics by batting behind him and b.) was robbed of the MVP award himself that season.
I think you make some good points...
...until you get to the race thing. One can always find individual anecdotes to support their point-of-view, and I have heard and read plenty of black sports writers/commentators that dislike him also, but as far as some grand racial conspiriacy, I just don't buy it.
"Rebuilding" is loser mentality.
When it comes to Bonds, its just the way it is for some reason.
I very rarely jump on the racial bandwagon, but the whole steroids saga has really made me sick. It really is a bunch of rich old white people in congress wagging their fingers at our generation of ballplayers, and coming down specifically hard on Barry Bonds. I really feel there is a lot of latent racism in the treatment of Bonds and the expectations in behavior of him. And I don't think I'm the only one.
And I certainly don't think its a grand racial conspiracy, or even conscious racism. When a white player is an asshole (Clemens throwing the bat at Piazza), he's just competitive or singularly minded or focused. When it's a black player, like Bonds or Bradley every sportswriter in America is writing a negative article. It seems like a little more to me than an individual anecdote, but maybe I'm overreacting.
oh and...
And there is a difference between plenty of black sports writers/commentators disliking him, and it seeming to be the mission of many writers out there to write a negative article whenever the whim strikes them. Joe Kennedy was a huge asshole to the media apparently, but sportswriters didn't universally jump on his back. I never heard anything about bad relations with the media until the poor guy had a heart attack, and there was that great espn.com article.
"Joe who?"...
...is more likely the reason. Sportswriters may have hated Kennedy, but reality is that if sportswriters reported on Joe Kennedy, readers would yawn. He wasn't good enough or flamboyant enough or controversial enough for readers to care. Bonds was/is. Not everything that happens differently when people of differing races are involved necessarily means that the underlying reason is racist.
"Rebuilding" is loser mentality.
Cust might be more mobile than Bonds
yes, but Bonds is likely much better at positioning and reading balls. It will likely be a wash. Bonds is no worse than the typical bad D LFs in MLB, like Adam Dunn, Carlos Lee, Manny, etc.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Or RSweeney, or Denorfia...
...or even holding back Gonzales an extra couple months. If the team were loaded with old guys I'd agree completely, but I suspect that people like MSweeney and EBrown are "valued" for their veteran presence to balance out a young-ish team.
"Rebuilding" is loser mentality.
You're probably right.
What's the saying? "Six of one, half a dozen of the other"? Yeah, overall, it's probably a wash.
"Rebuilding" is loser mentality.
Why the tangent?
The posting was about signing the jerk. I could care less if he's purple, puce or green. He is an a-hole in his demeanor and conduct towards people who he thinks are inferior to him(everyone). If I remember correctly even before ASU, he was a jerk and disliked at Serra H.S. Yes PED's have heightened my disdain for him, but the issue is still about the A's and their clubhouse. I don't believe in the Babe Cust aura and it wouldn't break my heart to see him released at the end of May. Mike Sweeney is a proven baller and deserves the FT DH job. Can you honestly say that you would prefer seeing S/O Cust or an exciting C-Gon?
How could you care less?
Can you describe a way in you could?
Sincerely,
Grammar Nazi, Pet Peeve Division
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I am comfortable being color blind.
Without being blatant about the race issue that some people like to bring up, I was ttrying to describe how I feel regarding it. When you come from a certain age, some colloquial carryovers should be tolerated by a younger generation.. "I come in peace".
Anti-Nazi term usage, Pet Peeve Division.
This thread segment
is like a fly ball hit to Jack Cust...
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I'd prefer to see Cust
because he's good at baseball.
I would also prefer to see Bonds, because he is also good at baseball.
Mike Sweeney is no longer good at baseball.
(Man, I'm feeling pithy tonight.)
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I'm usually pretty long-winded
Wasn't in the mood last night.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Players I prefer to see:
S/O and Walks and HRs Cust, S/O and walks and HRs Ryan Howard, Carlos Gonzales, Travis Buck, Daric Barton, Barry Bonds.
Players I have no desire to see: Emil Brown, Mike Sweeney.
Mike Sweeney is a "proven" baller? Yeah, so is Ray "worst starter in MLB" Durham. So is Rich Aurilia. Are you sure you're not Brian Sabean or Bruce Bochy?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
sweeney
Eh, Sweeney is a proven OBP guy that has fought injuries for a few years and is not so old to think he might not have a few solid seasons left in him if he's fortunate enough to stay healthy. I don't mind giving him an extended look at DH on the cheap. I sort of like the idea of Bonds as a LH DH/5th OF and Sweeney as a RH DH/2nd 1B and Cust in Triple A available as a backup to either of those guys.
And Brown as a 4th OF/RH PH, and in triple A if a 5-man OF of Denorfia/Buck/Gonzo/RSweeney/Bonds is sufficient.
As I have stated before...
I am for signing Bonds. He's a talent and had great numbers last year.
As for his not seeing pitching so far this year...as I recall he missed most of a season one year and came back and almost hit one out on the first at bat.
My worry is that he will get injured and Sweeney 's bat really is starting to heat up.
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