Linden Cut
by since72 on Mar 17, 2008 4:15 PM PDT
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Todd Linden found out he was not going to make the team today. Are you shocked?
I am not.
You don't cut Ichiro because he had a crummy spring due to his career numbers. You don't scrap your young developing players to take a guy who is having a hot spring with crummy career numbers. I would have been shocked if they had kept Linden.
Sweeney on the other hand is like Ichiro, in that he has great career numbers and basically looks like a great catch for the A's.
Bye Todd, thank you for the contribution this spring. You did a great job. Next time though, try not complaining in the press. As an employer myself, if you have a problem you talk to me about it, not tell everyone else you have a problem. Bad form and I think it contributed, in a small way, to his departure
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I think Eveland is the obvious choice at #5. Do you think we should cut Foulke? He has not done anything.
"Doesn't play well with the other children." Ms. Darias, principal, Broad Ave School
i think we should keep foulke
wasn't that his first appearance? might as well keep him. If he does well, keep him or trade him, does poorly, cut him.
"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra
I say cut Foulke
But what the hell do I know. I do believe he will be done by mid May at the latest with Joey Devine coming up after blowing away the PCL.
i agree
there is a reason why they signed him though, and i don't believe that it was because they needed him in the bullpen. To me, it seems pretty obvious what the team's motives were. I'm just not sure if it's worth it at this point with so many guys knocking on the door of the ML club.
"Put some ice on it. After that, there's nothing a few beers won't take care of. " -Pink
by OrlandoAsFan on Mar 18, 2008 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Can't really be too upset
I think the opportunity cost of getting him on the big league roster isn't really justified by his performance history. That said I think Linden still has a shot to be a solid major leaguer. I just wish he would accept a spot on the River Cats roster and take a month to show that he belongs at the top level
I'm sure the team will release him if he has an MLB offer elsewhere ...
and if he doesn't he'll be a Rivercat.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
I never
feel "bad" for players, but for some reason I do feel "bad" for Linden. I have no idea why. ha.
Juan Pierre: 44 Million Dollars, Juan Pierre's 3.2 WARP3: Priceless
by Travis Buck Nuckin on Mar 17, 2008 5:10 PM PDT reply actions
Lots of fair-to-middlin' options
With the glut of average players at the corner outfield spots, I'm a little meh on who stays and who goes (outside of Buck and R. Sweeney). Still, though-- Linden switch hits and Emil Brown bats rightie, neither will be much better or worse than average, but Linden has to have more upside. More and more, that Brown signing just doesn't make sense to me. Hopefully, he has a monster year and shuts me up.
Brown did lead the Royals in RBI
each of the last three seasons and his overall numbers in 2006 and 2007 were very solid. I think the A's believe he can help by being a right-handed "above average" bat they got cheap by "buying low". Basically another Shannon Stewart. I'm a bit concerned about his lack of power on a team that isn't power-heavy but if he puts up numbers like he did in 06-07 I think we'll be pleased.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Brown has more power than Stewart
and can play any of the outfield positions, whereas Stewart is limited to left field. That's probably why they basically exchanged Brown for Stewart.
I'll resist the urge to make a joke about leading the Royals in anything
But you make a good point. I guess my thought is that I didn't like Shannon Stewart in a corner spot, either-- ideally, you want much better power numbers from those players. To me, you only get away with that kind of power deficiency in the outfield if the guy plays CF with excellent defense.
I'd just rather see a set outfield of Sweeney in LF, Denorfia in CF, and Buck in RF; or, if Cust and M. Sweeney need to be in the same lineup (and they likely do), Cust in LF, R. Sweeney in CF, and Buck in RF. And I think you take a flier on a guy like Linden as a fourth outfielder who purportedly has potential, over a "proven" veteran who will give you at best a free agent type-B performance.
It's all rhetorical, of course. I rarely can predict beforehand what BB does, and even more rarely foresee how successful those moves will be.
Linden has more downside too
and before you come back with "it doesn't matter, the team's rebuilding," keep in mind that Texas picked up some solid minor leaguers for a guy (Eric Gagne) that they got on a one-year flier contract.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Eric Gagne? Really?
I think the best case scenario for Brown is that he goes all Shannon Stewart on us. What does that mean? He has an OK year that would be solid for an above-average defensive CF who is young. For a corner OFer on the downside of his career, I want either a star or someone who could become one. Shannon didn't even get a major league deal even after his "solid" year. That we are in a rebuilding year should only exacerbate the fact that we need a guy who either is way above average or who could develop into something above average, even if that possibility is crazy unlikely. Brown's upside is slightly above average (and that's being generous). Gagne had arguably some of the best seasons a closer has ever had. If a team thought that Brown had returned to his career highs, hell slightly exceeded them, and was likely to continue doing so, they still wouldn't give near the same amount that Boston gave up for Gagne.
I'm not saying Linden is the answer, but do I take the guy who is only a few years removed from being a top prospect over the older veteran whose career high is a low 800 OPS? Every time. It's more that I don't like the Brown signing if you couldn't tell yet (nor did I like Stewart, nor Payton's option picked up but at least JayPay could play CF for a competitive team), more so than it is I like Linden. But any potential is better than no potential.
As for any argument for getting a guy who is at a low point in his career so we can swing him in another deal, I present you Coco Crisp. I think you have made your stance on that quite clear PT. And yes, he is more expensive with a longer deal than Brown and he would cost us assets in a trade while signing Brown did not, I would still much rather have Coco than Emil.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Emil Brown costs a roster spot
Coco Crisp would cost a roster spot, quite a lot of money and valuable prospects in trade.
The two deals aren't even remotely comparable.
Also, I'm not sure why you're saying it's generous to characterize Brown's upside as "slightly above average." That seems like exactly what his upside is to me. He had a number of years not very long ago where he was slightly above average.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
If you want solid minor leaguers as a return on a one year contract
You sign Kenny Lofton, not Emil Brown.
Brown's a 32 year old corner OF, with a career OPS+ of 90, career OPS of 730. He had 2 years at in which he was slightly above average
He's roster filler.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Isn't Lofton lefthanded?
Brown being a righty clearly factored into signing him.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Trade bait is a different matter from on field utility
Lofton can still play CF,albeit at a below average level. Not someone a contender would want to use as a starter, granted, but he can cover for the starter or as an injury replacement. He is better offensively, compared to Brown. He is a very consistent player, he has been at about the same level offensively for the last 10 years. A team that is giving up prospects for him, can be fairly certain about what they are getting in return.
Look at 2007, for example. The Rangers signed him to a 1 year contract. They then traded him to the Indians for an OK. catching prospect in Max Ramirez.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
The value of brand names
Eric Gagne carries some weight (no pun intended) even after all his injury troubles. I could be wrong, but I really don't feel as if Emil Brown-- as a "late bloomer" player on the wrong side of 30 who never set the world on fire-- would come even close to commanding Gagne-esque value in a trade.
Basically, I see either him or Linden as a 4th outfielder, which may or may not be right. But to me, you might as well take a gamble on a younger guy there.
it's never good to spout off to the media!
see Halsey, Brad.
i didn't even know he was still with the organization!
no kidding, he didn't help his cause.
the big difference for me has been hearing how well someone like Sweeney has approached things compared to that of Linden. It's like night and day. I really don't want someone with Linden's sour attitude mixed in with this young A's team.
by sf drift king on Mar 18, 2008 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
He could still be moved up
If anyone gets hurt. His batting this Spring makes you wonder if it was the right choice or not. That's for sure.
Not really
Devo's point about the BABIP thing pretty much convinced me that it's a fluke.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I don't love it.
But it's not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. I don't view it as a choice between Linden and Sweeney, or Linden and Brown. It's more of a choice between Linden and Denorfia--players of the same age and similar minor-league credentials. Linden didn't perform especially well in his big league stints with the Giants, but his minor-league numbers suggest that he's capable of doing better than that at the big league level.
The decision wasn't really about performance or potential, though--it was about sunk costs. All his competitors have 40-man roster spots (and in Brown's case, a significant big-league contract), and he doesn't, so he started camp in a nearly insurmountable position. He really should have gone to camp with a team more in need of outfielders, where he would have had a fighting chance.
So it goes.
if Denorfia is seen by the A's as a true centerfielder
while they consider Linden a corner outfielder, that would indicate one reason why Denorfia is getting preference.
like
the mets?
"Put some ice on it. After that, there's nothing a few beers won't take care of. " -Pink
by OrlandoAsFan on Mar 18, 2008 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions
In his defense
Weren't the A's more in need of outfielders when he signed? There was no Sweeney, no Emil Brown.
i believe
some of the younger guys are more advanced than the A's management initially thought. This would help explain the Emil Brown signing. Although he might not be a bad guy to have around, I'm not sure if it is really a necessity. I think, if they knew then what they know now, that they probably wouldn't have signed Brown(atleast not to a ML deal) and Foulke. Hindsight is 20/20. Now they have these 2 guys that aren't really necessary, but they have invested some resources into them. Therefore, Brown will get a better shot than most of the other guys in the OF. I'm not so sure about Foulke though. It would be a little easier for the team to 'cut their losses' with him as opposed to Brown.
"Put some ice on it. After that, there's nothing a few beers won't take care of. " -Pink
by OrlandoAsFan on Mar 18, 2008 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Linden vs Denorifa
Linden debuted att age 22 at AA, in 453 PA in the Texas league, 888 OPS, relative to a league average of 716.
Linden at 22, 2003, in AAA, 755 OPS in 120 PA, in the PCL, relative to a league average of 761.
Denorfia, age 22, in 524 PA at A+, 619 OPS in the CAR, league average was 692.
Linden at 23, 2003, in AAA, 747 OPS in 511 PA, in the PCL, relative to a league average of 747.
Denorfia at 23, 948 OPS at A+ in the CAR in 371 PA, league average was 710.
Denorfia, at 23, 733 OPS at AA in the SOU in 251 PA , league average was 722.
Linden, 24, in AAA, 810 OPS in 552 PA, in the PCL, relative to a league average of 799.
Denorfia, 24, at AA, 955 OPS in 209 PA in the SOU, relative to a league average of 733.
Denorfia, same season, at AAA, 896 OPS in the INT in 374, relative to league average of 762.
Linden at 25, his breakout year, at AAA, in the PCL, 1119 OPS in 415 PAs, relative to a league average of 792.
Denorfia, 25, 893 OPS at AAA in the INT in 353 PA, relative to a league average of 715.
Denorfia has somewhat more speed
.
Linden was better younger, but once Denorfia got to AAA, he has outperformed Linden.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
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