The A's First $100 Million Dollar Man
"After my fourth season I asked for $43,000 and General Manager Ed Barrow told me, 'Young man, do you realize Lou Gehrig, a 16-year-man, is playing for only $44,000?' I said, Mr. Barrow, there is only one answer to that - Mr. Gehrig is terribly underpaid."
-Yankees outfielder Joe DiMaggio, coming off his MVP season in 1939 at age 24.
DiMaggio's quote above is one of my favorites, and it sets the tone for today's topic. The title of this post may seem absurd - our humble, small-to-mid market team making a nine-figure outlay for a player. But consider that, at one point, people also thought it would be impossible for any baseball player to ever make $100,000 a year. In 1949, DiMaggio himself became baseball's first.
Thirty years later, Nolan Ryan became baseball's first $1 million-a-year man in his free agent contract with the Astros in 1979. Supposedly, that contract was going to bring down the game, too.
Kevin Brown broke the $100MM contract barrier with his seven year free agent deal in 1999, and, after this off-season, there have now been a total of sixteen contracts that have broken the magical nine-figure barrier we're discussing today.
Trust me (or the historical trend) when I say, there are more to come. So, which current stars will earn the next nine-figure deals? Could any of them sign with the A's? Click the link to read more.
Many websites keep readers updated on the current FA class, and a few of the most informative ones even keep tabs on the free agent class of '09 (at the conclusion of this '08 season). We're looking a little farther down the road than that today. Thanks to MLB's service time rules and Cot's Contracts, we can, today, project who the biggest potential fish will be on the Free Agent market for the next 6 years.
(This exercise is surprisingly simple - look up a star player, find out how many service time years he's earned thus far in his career, and when that figure reaches 6, he'll be a free agent. I used the word "potential" free agents because, of course, any of these players could sign contract extensions with their current team. But for the most elite young stars - the top 5-10 young players in the game - these extensions will become less likely, as they take notice of Ryan Howard - a player with less than 3 years of service time, who will go to arbitration and earn significant raises three more times before reaching free agency - who won a $10MM victory in arbitration this past offseason).
So, barring contract extensions, what follows is a list of elite players who stand to eventually become Nine Figure Men, due to a combination of their performance and relatively young age.
FA class of '09:
Mark Teixeira
FA class of '10
Miguel Cabrera (turns 27 at the beginning of the '10 season).
FA class of '11
Scott Kazmir
FA class of '12
Hanley Ramirez (turns 28 before this season starts).
Prince Fielder (turns 28 during the season, and a California native).
Jeff Francoeur (27 for the entire season).
Ryan Howard (past age 30, but he could still command $100MM here).
Ryan Zimmerman
FA class of '13 (players who currently have between 1-2 years of service)
B.J. Upton – (turns 29 in his first FA year)
Alex Gordon (29)
Delmon Young (turns 28 during the season).
FA class of '14 (these players have all cracked the bigs, but will accumulate their first year of service this year):
Ryan Braun (30, and a native Californian).
Billy Butler – (turns 28 during the season)
Justin Upton - (becomes an FA at 26(!), turns 27 during the year).
There is a chance that players like Jay Bruce, Evan Longoria (another Californian), Andy LaRoche, and Daric Barton all enter this free agent class, but they also could easily spend enough time in the minors this year to delay their free agency into 2015.
(And heck, we gotta draw the line somewhere. I'm not gonna start projecting the Gerber Free Agent class of 2036, headlined by Salb's newborn baby).
Analysis:
There's a lot of talking points for discussion here:
*If we look at some of the most successful marquee free agent signings of the past 15 years - Barry Bonds' first deal with the Giants, Vlad's deal with the Angels, and even, I would argue, A-Rod's first deal with the Rangers (which would have been even better if the team hadn't outbid themselves by $50MM), they have a common theme - position players on the good side of age 28. That's part of why the list I made above focuses on position players, and especially youth.
*Using that criterion, my personal endorsement for the A's first $100MM splurge is...Justin Upton, assuming he reaches free agency in 2014. In fact, this could double that investment, requiring something like 9 years and $200 million. Yes, I am advocating that for the A's, and no, I'm not nuts.
Here's my logic:
*Those terrific FA classes of '12 and '13 might eat up the money of many of the wealthier teams, and leave several of them out of the bidding.
*Of all the players on that list, Upton is the only one who reaches free agency at age 26. That means he's got his entire peak in front of him. It's incredibly rare for this to happen - it means that a player cracked the big leagues as a teenager, and pretty much stayed there from then on. (It also illustrates how remarkable it is that A-Rod reached FA at 25). Studies show that teams almost always pay for past performance rather than future projected performance. In theory, Upton's 27-32 should be better than his 21-26, which means that he could be both colossally expensive and a bargain at the same time.
*Upton plays a position (right field) that is well-suited to make such a large investment in, because his defense won't become a liability over the life of the deal, and he doesn't face the injury risk of a catcher or middle-infielder. Sure, a DH or first baseman would face even less injury risk...but the problem with huge investments at these positions is, they are easily filled with pretty good Freely Available Talent that gets ignored because of their defense (like Jack Cust or Shelley Duncan). Plus, it's nice to leave either first base or DH open for a star at another position who's slightly injured or declining defensively. The Yankees have been somewhat burned by investing in the same types of aging players who all are limited to the lower rungs of the defensive spectrum (which is part of why I'd prefer Upton over, say, Billy Butler of the Royals).
*The fact that this investment is six years away allows for plenty of planning. The A's can't get the cash to suddenly afford Miguel Cabrera in two years. But with six years to plan for a player, and with no payroll "floor" in Major League Baseball, the A's could very easily plan for the future acquisition of a $20-plus million-a-year player. They simply need to complete eschew the mediocre, middling FA signings - the Loaizas and Piazzas - for the next five years, and follow this most recent offseason's blueprint for the foreseeable future. It would be easy to justify a team payroll in the 40-60 million range and playing young players exclusively for the next five years while the team saved millions in order to make their big splurge, right as they are in the middle of their contending cycle.
*I also like the timing of Upton's FA launch. The A's string of one-year renewals at the Coliseum ends in 2013, and although we've heard talk of Cisco Field happening in 2011-2012, I think it's more realistic that it gets delayed a bit, as huge projects often do. Billy Beane has said often that payroll/budget won't see a significant change until the new stadium is a reality and not merely a vision. By 2014, that vision will most certainly be complete.
So I'll leave you with this wishful thought, a vision for the year 2014:
Billy Beane raises team payroll to $100 million (one-fifth of it devoted to his new star player), signs the soon-to-be best player in the game (Justin Upton) to bat fourth, play rightfield and headline a team of burgeoning young talent entering its prime as they open Cisco Field and becoming the new AL West mini-dynasty.
Sounds good, doesn't it?
1 recs |
105 comments
Comments
I think we'll start seeing more Andruw Jones type deals
Big money, short term.
At least, that's what I'm hoping for. Personally, I really think it's a huge risk to sign a guy to a 6, 7, 8 year (or more!) contract. One major injury -- or a crapload of nagging ones *cough* Eric Chavez *cough* can really hurt a team.
Hell, I know it's the Yankees, but imagine if A-Rod broke his leg tomorrow, missed the season, and came back a shadow of himself.
by mikev on Mar 13, 2008 8:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Those deals are more worrisome to me
If A-Rod had been signed to a one-year deal and broke his leg tomorrow, he would've been entirely a wasted investment.
Since he signed a 10-year deal, a broken leg would mean a lost season...and likely 7-8 more years of production. Sure, there's the risk of a debilitating injury, too - but on the one-year deal, there's the risk of getting jack squat out of your investment, which to me, doesn't justify the necessary "over-payment" to get the player to agree to the shorter term.
Plus, truly elite players don't sign shorter-term-than-they're-capable-of-commanding deals on the open market. Guys with serious question marks like Jason Schmidt and Andruw Jones do.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 13, 2008 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"There is no such thing as a bad 1 year contract"
You'll hear this said often amongst GMs, even dumb ones, and I believe it whole-heartedly. As you say above "studies show" that teams pay for past performance rather than future projected performance, and this gets more and more exaggerated as the length of the contract increases.
If the player gets injured and it's a 1 year contract, yeah you lose him, but you would have lost the money for that year with a long term contract as well, and now you dont have to worry about diminished performance. If you still like the player, you can still sign him next year, and there's a good chance he will come cheaper due to the injury.
In nearly all practical, realistic cases, shorter contracts benefit the team (and the fan supporting the team) more than they benefit the player.
by oakinboston on Mar 13, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
also...
teams have to take out insurance policies for contracts such as Arod's. No need to pay for one of those if it's just a 1 year deal.
by oakinboston on Mar 13, 2008 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
last reply...
one scenario in which it DOES end up being beneficial for a team to take out a long term contract is when the market value of MLB players takes a significant increase during the life of the contract (such as what has happened in the last 10 years).
When Manny began his contract in '01, people thought it was ludicrous, especially at the thought of paying somebody $20mil at 36 years old (2008). Well, now it's 2008, and to be honest, it seems much less ludicrous. Had Manny been a free agent in 05 (after a year of hitting 44 bombs and batting .308), he'd have easily been above the 20mil mark.
how the salary market is going to change is incredibly difficult to project, however.
by oakinboston on Mar 13, 2008 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How the market may change is difficult to project
But since FA, it has inflated at a rate of around 10%.
This is why backloaded contracts are actually GOOD for MLB teams. $10M in 6 years time is worth much less, in terms of player talent, than $10M today. In the meantime, the money that you are not paying that player can be invested.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Mar 13, 2008 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea
Of course its usually beneficial for teams to sign a short contract like a one or two, less risk of a huge decline in the player and wasting money paying out that contract for a player who's not near the level he was when they signed him. Short term contracts are obviously much better for the team that signs them than the player (no long term stability in terms of money, knowing where they'll be in a year, etc). Which is why, as notsellingjeans said, those are for "damaged goods" players like Andruw and Big Hurt when we got him, or just not very significant players. The nine figure plus star players we're talking about in this thread command the type of power where any team trying to take them on is going to have to offer a long term deal because thats what a player wants, a fat guaranteed check for the next 6-10 years regardless of how they play, as opposed to a one year deal where they have to play great, because they're back in free agency in a year and coming off an off year is going to hurt their value. I very much doubt we're going to see a move towards 1 year big money deals like you said in the original post for anyone other than the players that get them now: damaged goods and players too questionable to command a long-term deal anywhere.
take money
by yo on Mar 13, 2008 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, there is such a thing as a bad 1 year contract
Mike Piazza for $6M / 1 was and is a bad contract. That $6M could have been spent as part of a bigger deal for a better player, or on prospects.
The problem with signing 1 year contracts is you are unlikely to get great players. With one year contracts, you get mediocre borderline journeymen, or declining vets.
The best you can hope with 1 year contracts are Greg Maddux / Tom Glavine types, HOF players at the very tailend of their career, which comes with a risk that they fall off the cliff.
Occasionally, you might get a good player coming off a very serious injury.
And Barry Bonds.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Mar 13, 2008 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
id argue that it was not bad
a risk? yes. any contract carriers the risk of injury. but because it was only 1 year, we took our shot and now he's not our worry.
and the great thing about borderline journeymen or declining vets is that the vorp/$ is higher than the high-end players. and it's not like $6M really prevented us from making any moves on prospects. We were still under budget.
extrapolating out from the games he played (even the ones after injury), he could have hit 15 hr. not too shabby.
also, the new trend is to take these short term high risk type and spin them off for prospects if the team isnt competing (if sweeney produces this year, any contender would love to pick him up at the deadline for a couple C+ or a B- prospect).
by oakinboston on Mar 13, 2008 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, we took our shot?
Are you satisfied with the results?
That is the problem with this 1 night stands with mediocre players. You often end up feeling distinctly dissatisfied after it ends.
A DH hitting 15 HRs is actually pretty shabby, unless he does lots of other things well. Nonetheless, he di not hit 15 HRs, He hit 8. His OBP was below league average, his SLG was marginally above average. For a DH being paid $6M, that is pretty shabby.
What does "under budget" mean?
VORP / $? Seriously? Marginal wins per dollar spent is the most important thing now? Never mind getting into the playoffs, winning the WS, selling tickets, selling overpriced beer, starting up a cable channel?
The Yankees are yearly almost always the worst team in terms of VORP / $, the Marlins the best. So, the conclusion?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Mar 13, 2008 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
one night stands...
as opposed to long term contracts the A's could have made (giambi, tejada, mulder, hudson) or did make (chavez) and could have left us feeling so much more satisfied?
and how about Big Frank? surely you think that one wasnt bad.
i mean, we could put out counter examples until carpal tunnel sets in. just hoping people keep an open mind.
yeah, i realize the indicator i used is a bit ridiculous. but if you are going to buy into the story that the A's need to have a lower payroll and still wish to compete (and then get to WS's and sell overpriced beer), how else are you going to get there?
by oakinboston on Mar 13, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying all one night stands
are bad. Just as I'm not saying all long contracts are good. I'm saying that if you take a principle of never signing big contracts, you are going to never be able to go after the very good to great players. Note, I'm not advocating signing the Park Chan Hos and the Darren Dreiforts of MLB.
Hurt turned out great. How many Hurt types are there? Bonds is available this year, but, would you sign him?
Tejada would have been a great signing. The Orioles got 3 great years out of him, in which he was among the best a his position, and underpaid, one Ok year, slightly overpaid, and then traded him for 2 OK pitching prospects. That is a great return.
Hudson has turned out well for the Braves. One great year, one very good year, one mediocre year.
Giambi has given the Yanks 4 great years, one very bad year, one mediocre year, and will likely be mediocre again next year.
Mulder, even a non baseball fan could see all the honking red flags.
Of the 4 big contracts you cited, only Mulder would have been a disaster. Tejada would have great, Hudson good, and Giambi, depending if you are a contending team or not when the contract was signed, acceptable.
Also, those were not the only big contracts that could have signed, if they were willing to sign big contracts. They could have signed Vlad Guerrero.
"yeah, i realize the indicator i used is a bit ridiculous. but if you are going to buy into the story that the A's need to have a lower payroll and still wish to compete (and then get to WS's and sell overpriced beer), how else are you going to get there?"
Well, the thing with building a new stadium, selling overpriced beer, and maybe starting your own sports network is that you want to able to not have to have a lower payroll.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Mar 14, 2008 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Piazza isn't a Maddux/Glavine type?
Piazza fit your criterion for best hope, he just fell off a cliff.
by mrrickyg on Apr 12, 2008 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If A-Rod had been signed to a one-year deal and broke his leg tomorrow, he would've been entirely a wasted investment.
So say we sign A-Rod to 1 year, 33 million dollars and he breaks his leg. We "lose" 33 million dollars.
If we sign him for 10 years at 27 million a year, and he breaks his leg, we "lose 27 million dollars. We still "lose" a lot of money AND we are subjected to 9 more years of him perhaps not performing as well.
A-Rod is a bad example for why long term deals are bad though. For the best example, see: Mike Hampton. I'd rather have him signed for one year and completely waste the whole entire contract than sign him for several years and, well, lose practically the whole contract.
Juan Pierre: 44 Million Dollars, Juan Pierre's 3.2 WARP3: Priceless
by Travis Buck Nuckin on Mar 13, 2008 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again,
That's why I didn't focus on pitchers. I would never advocate signing an FA pitcher long-term. They break down more than hitters do.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 13, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would you believe that?
Andruw Jones signed his deal coming off a horrible injury prone, combined with concerns about his physical shape: he does not exactly look like a typical CF, ie he looks fat, having put on weight over the course of his career.
In the meanwhile, just this season, Torii Hunter got signed to a long term deal. Ichiro signed a long term extension.
Johan Santana and Carlos Zamrano got signed to long term extensions.
If you go back 1 year, there are more huge long term deals.
If ARod broke his leg tomorrow, insurance would cover it. The Eric Chavez type injuries are the problem: the player continues to drag himself out onto the field, and underperforms despite being injured.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Mar 13, 2008 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with you on Chavez
having a bad contract. he is the middle-of-the road type contract that an injury will kill.
i was just discussing the 1-year deal.
And just because all these players got long term deals, it does not mean they are good for their respective teams. it just means that, in light of how salaries have increased historically, agents have huge amounts of leverage.
10% inflation seems difficult to keep up forever, though... the bubble is probably not far down the road.
by oakinboston on Mar 13, 2008 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point is that I do not see any sign
that Andruw Jones type contracts are becoming more prevalent. Andruw Jones signed his contract because he is coming off a bad injury prone year.
Yes, salaries have increased tremendously. So have league wide revenues. I am going to start my salaries as a proportion of revenues rant again:
Salaries, as a proportion of revenues have actually DECLINED. As a proportion of revenues, they are now around 41%-43%.
In the NFL, often touted as an example where salaries are well managed, salaries as a proportion of the revenues are in the mid 50s. In the NBA, it is at 57%. In the NHL, after the lockout, after the players conceded defeat, they agreed to a measly 54%. /end rant
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Mar 13, 2008 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Psst -- typo alert -- Lou Gehrig was thirty-six for roughly half of 1939
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on Mar 13, 2008 8:12 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Crap -- never mind.
/gulps more coffee, rubs eyes
//mutters to himself
///wishes he had admin privileges
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on Mar 13, 2008 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find it works nicely to just rub the ground coffee beans directly into my eyes
I wasn't thinking about anything. I'll have to try to do that more often. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Mar 13, 2008 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Bay Area is NOT a small market
although the A's may fairly be described as a low to middle payroll team.
by OaklandSi on Mar 13, 2008 8:15 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Now I'm pissed off
You're willing to project Sal's newborn in 2036 but you won't give my 5 year old son, who's already the biggest kid in his preschool class, even a mention! Well up yours NSJ!!!
Just for that, I'm going to make you look bad in your own front page article.
"The A's can't get the cash to suddenly afford Miguel Cabrera in two years."
That is completely and utterly wrong. False. Incorrect. Matter o' fact, the A's could drop $20 million annual on Cabrera TOMORROW if the opportunity presented itself and the A's were interested. Currently, the A's player payroll is round numbers $50 million and that includes the payout for Kotsay. At the start of the year (as per Wolff) the payroll was budgeted in the low-70's. Let's call it $72 million... pretty simple math here.
But let's jump ahead to when Cabrera could actually become a free agent after the 2009 season. You say that the A's can't come up with the cash for Cabrera in 2 years. Let's look at the A's payroll situation for 2010, based on current contract status.
Chavez: $12 million guaranteed
Blanton, Street, Gaudin and DiNardo all 6th year arby eligible.
Cust and DJ will be 5th year arby eligible.
Denorfia, Bowen, Buck, Casilla and Murphy will be 4th year arby eligible.
Devine might be a Super 2.
Everyone else, based on the current organizational depth chart, will have experienced the chance at FA (Ellis, Duke, etc) or have less then 3 years experience.
So unless the A's plan on setting their 2010 payroll to under $50 million there is no reason to think they wouldn't have the funds to pursue Cabrera if they wanted to.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Mar 13, 2008 8:16 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
$20M in free payroll.
This is absolutely right. If the A's manage to stay in this thing through July, they could take on some serious money.
So it goes.
by jeepers on Mar 13, 2008 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pat Burrell, whoo!
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Mar 13, 2008 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
count me in
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown
by flipgatey3 on Mar 13, 2008 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The A's should make a habit
out of taking on players who are unfairly hated in other cities.
Pat the Bat... Adam Dunn... Eric Chavez...
Wait, he's hated in this city.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Mar 13, 2008 11:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but is he hated in Fremont?
I wasn't thinking about anything. I'll have to try to do that more often. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Mar 14, 2008 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's an interesting topic Paul
are there other guys around the league who are in exile, or have expressed a desire to leave their current city?
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 15, 2008 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's fair
My calculus for "Upton over Cabrera" was: 1. Cabrera is currently a very poor defender, and I don't anticipate him becoming a better one, which would mean that 2. you'd be trying to hide him in LF, where's he's not great either. I wouldn't want to pay $20 million per for a bad defender. Upton, who has played OF for a long time and will continue to, is a very good defender and is likely to be one throughout a contract that pays him from age 26-34.
Plus, Cabrera's been so good, so early in his career, that he's inevitably going to get paid for that success. If Upton takes a slower path to stardom, that could make him more affordable (figuring in 2010 dollars vs. 2014 dollars) than Cabrera.
But the real kicker here is the stadium. When the stadium is in place, it's easier to take a $20-million-a-year gamble. It'll be hard enough to justify that in '14; it's even harder to justify while still playing in Oakland Coliseum.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 13, 2008 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is true
I too would prefer Upton over Cabrera for the reasons you state. However, Cabrera is such a special offensive player I think you'd still get value if all he did was DH.
My goal was to mock you and make you look foolish after slighting my son. Signing a $20 million annual player anytime in the next 3 years is doable IF the A's choose to go that route.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Mar 13, 2008 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your son...
is clearly on the MLB path. I guarantee he's one of the few five-year-olds in America whose Dad is already telling him to ignore his BABIP and focus on his peripheral stats.
I fully expect Beane to sign him to a really, ridiculously early pre-arb extension next fall, hoping to beat others to a potential bargain. :)
(In all seriousness, you should move the family to Venezuela when he hits high school so he can sign at 16).
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 13, 2008 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better
If I can just convince him to take up switch hitting. He throws RH, so he's got that going against him as a pitcher but oh well...
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Mar 13, 2008 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My nephew
Hasn't picked a hand yet but he throws lefty and right now he's hitting righty in his tee ball league. He's probably going to be short and stocky so I'm thinking switch hitting OF. He says hes the fastest 6 year old out of all the 6 year olds and I tend to agree.
RIVER CATS: AAA CHAMPS!
by niallmack on Mar 13, 2008 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh ya
And during his game the coach put the tee too tall, and he just stood there looking at it waiting... Then his coach lowered it and he slammed a line drive.
RIVER CATS: AAA CHAMPS!
by niallmack on Mar 13, 2008 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My t-ball team is Coach Pitch
They don't even hit off the tee unless they go 5 pitches without putting a ball in play.
by mikev on Mar 13, 2008 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't worry about handedness
By the time grover, jr. is ready to be signed, PaulThomas will have succeeded in his quest to destroy the myth of the value of LHPs.
I wasn't thinking about anything. I'll have to try to do that more often. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Mar 13, 2008 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When Mrs. Jeans and I...
start having children in a few years, I'm afraid that I'll be like Todd Marinovich's dad, 2.0. We're talking about "tying-the-right-hand-behind-his-back" level of craziness here, people.
I'd like to apologize to all future Little League umps in the South Bay in advance.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 13, 2008 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
any studies?
has there been any statistical studies on how successful these type of signings have been? I feel like 50-75% of them end up being a poor investment of money.
I agree that positional players who are signed at a younger age would seem to be more likely to be successful. It'd be interesting to see some stats on how much more successful though.
by dbeach13 on Mar 13, 2008 8:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What are these "dollars" of which you speak?
Also Albert Pujols could also be in the Class of '12.
by WaddellCanseco on Mar 13, 2008 9:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Missed him
He doesn't fall into the age bracket of the analysis, though.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 13, 2008 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They may not be good investments
but I think you seriously underrate the potential earnings of pitchers.
Sabathia, Lackey, Wang, Bedard, Haren, Webb... these are Cy Young type pitchers hitting free agency for the first time. They are definitely going to get paid, and in a major way. You can already kind of squint into the future and see someone dropping $100 million on Philip Hughes or Clay Buchholz in 2013.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Mar 13, 2008 10:00 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
True Paul
That wasn't clear in what I wrote. I didn't mean to say that the list was an exhaustive one of guys who could make $100 mil. I have no doubt that Sabathia will crack $100MM, and perhaps others from that list too.
I was trying to pinpoint only players that I thought the A's might invest in, and I limited myself to position players, thinking that was more likely. I should've left off Kazmir altogether to make that more clear, but I felt compelled to put somebody in that class and I didn't see any offensive guys I was bullish about.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 13, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't Victor Martinez in that year?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Mar 13, 2008 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't check him
Post-age 30 catcher decline though. Unlikely to justify a $100M investment.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 13, 2008 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
catcher is probably another position player type I'd be leery of signing to a long term deal. they wear down so fast and so few actually break into the league at the right time to be entering FA in their primes.
I suppose we'll see what Russell Martin looks like in 2013.
by rebus on Mar 13, 2008 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Baseball Prospectus says post 27 declines for hitters though
that's the gamble with signing a guy any older than 27 or 28. You get a few years of plateau and peak and then decline. Counter that with the increasing monetary value, as most contracts are back-heavy, and you are getting increasing money for decreasing performance.
Though contract inflation may counteract my middle statement.
As discussed about 1 month ago, I would still prefer to invest more money in the draft and international scouting, then sign the best guys to 1-3 years past their end of arby date. That's 7 to 9 years of MLB experience on one team. That's significant.
by echerrst on Mar 13, 2008 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yet again, Sabean sets the bar.
Zito's 127M was laughable, but of course Santana would eclipse that because he's the best pitcher in baseball.
6 years/130M will be the de facto standard for CY caliber guys going forward.
by mikev on Mar 13, 2008 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the other point is
yes there will be plenty of $100 million + pitchers in the next 5-6 years, but the a's first $100 million dollar man will definitely be a position player.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Mar 13, 2008 11:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
question?
if Ryan Howard can go to arbitration and get $10m, why didn't Prince Fielder do the same to get a significant pay raise? I know the Brewers renewed his contract at a measly $600k.
What's the deal with that?
by sf drift king on Mar 13, 2008 12:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Howard was a Super 2, thus eligible for arbitration
Fielder was not eligible for arby, therefore got what the Brewers gave him.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Mar 13, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Howard got $10 million as a Super Two?
Wow. I thought he was a third-year guy for some reason.
That's insane. Isn't the scale for Super Twos supposed to be like 20/40/60/80 percent of market value?
Ryan Howard is not worth $50 million a year.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Mar 13, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess 127 HR in 2.5 seasons = $10 million in arby
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Mar 13, 2008 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was fluky though
The Phillies screwed that up a bit, IMO - and in the process, may have a created a pretty dramatic ripple effect on future arby negotiations.
The Phillies submitted a figure of $7 million and Howard's agents submitted $10 million, and once it reaches arbitration, there is no middle ground reached - someone wins and someone loses.
Had the Phils submitted $7.5-8 million, I'll bet they would've won. Instead, they went with the figure that MCab earned in his first year of arbitration, without including an inflationary bump-up.
It may have cost them a few million bucks...and helped the case of guys like Prince Fielder next year. That case was a big "ouch" for any GM/owner with an elite pre-arb player.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 13, 2008 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Keith Law, says that
it is actually more along the linese of 40/60/80/80; ie the player is judged according to his year of arby eligibility.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Mar 13, 2008 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Howard is a super 2
From Cots
The top 17 percent of players with at least 2 but less than 3 years of Major League service. (See Super 2). To qualify as a Super 2, a player must have accumulated at least 86 days of service in the previous year. (A year of service is 172 days. The historical cutoff point for Super 2 status is 2 years, 128 days of service, though the requirement has been as high as 2 years, 140 days.)
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Mar 13, 2008 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice detail
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Mar 13, 2008 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
super 2 - ok, didn't know that existed, but it's understood.
I just thot that all young players coming out of the minors were in the control of their clubs for 6 years then become unrestricted free agents, which is why the A's were able to lock up young talent on the cheap before they became UFA's.
by sf drift king on Mar 13, 2008 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
something doesn't make sense here
looking at Cot's baseball, Fielder's ML service is: 2.068, which is less than Howards: ML service: 2.145. So unless their info is wrong, Fielder should qualify under Super 2 status - no?
by sf drift king on Mar 13, 2008 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You might be reading the numbers wrong. 2.068 means two years, 68 days. You will notice that nobody ever has a number higher than 171 after the "dot," because at 172 it carries over to a full year. That is, 1.171 plus one day = 2.000.
Super 2 usually kicks in around 2.130, but it varies each year. Fielder missed by almost two months.
I wrote a long piece about Super 2 effects a couple years ago over at LetsGoTribe ... if you can wade through the Indians-centric approach, I think it will help you see the significance.
by Jay on Mar 14, 2008 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jay!
It's a privilege to have you here. Your front-page writing on the Indians was a real education for me, especially that Super 2 colummn you referenced above.
You guys should all go check out Jay's Indians blog, letsgotribe.com. Really knowledgeable, fun group.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 14, 2008 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you, you are far too kind. Speaking for the LGT crew, we are pleased just to be mentioned alongside the fine folks here at AN.
by Jay on Mar 14, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey Jay,
thanks for breaking it down to layman's terms.
by sf drift king on Mar 16, 2008 2:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a great piece
But my personal opinion is that with all the young talent Beane has acquired, I wouldn't doubt seeing that $100 mil player come from within the A's organization. Say Carlos Gonzalez turns into a five-tool superstar player that everyone expects him to be...could he be the first player that winds up coming from within the current group of A's that the A's open up the wallet for and keep? Maybe one of the pitchers instead? Yeah, the chances are that none of the players the A's currently have are in Upton's league, but maybe for once, the A's actually pay a guy rather than developing him and then letting him walk.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Mar 13, 2008 12:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed
I wonder if we'll see any more Loaiza contracts, middling in length and money. I hope Billy learned his lesson there.
by rebus on Mar 13, 2008 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really, really hope so
Mostly because I hated the Loaiza signing from the second that I heard about it. I wasn't around AN then, so I won't play the "Told you so" card :D
by mikev on Mar 13, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was tipped to the negative on the Loiza signing
but it looked, again from history, to be a "decent bargain, decent result" and after he was pitcher of the month or something, I thought, "Well, they know this business, I don't.." Then it all collapsed.
I was very down on Arthur Rhodes from the get-go. It may be my selective details that I'm assembling, but it seems that players who "hurt the A's" and win ballgames and defeat the A's, somehow get signed/ traded for by Beane:
Bobby Kielty (HR), Rhodes, Rincon, Carlos Pena, uuuuuh, I see more faces and positions...
but, uuuuhhh the names desert the oold mind.
"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer
by One won lost won on Mar 13, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just pissed because Saarloos wasn't given the 5th starter job
Signing Loaiza pushed him out of the rotation, and it was after he'd done a pretty bang up job as the #5 starter in 2005.
Of course, the eventual Loaiza and Harden injuries pushed Saarloos back into the rotation, where he essentially had equal numbers to Loaiza for about 6.5 million less dollars.
by mikev on Mar 13, 2008 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
really?
I was slightly positive about Loaiza – I figured he would be an early replacement for Zito at a fraction of the cost. And I suppose, considering Zito's decline, he has been Zito minus the health.
I think the dynamics of those mid range deals is just poor. Mediocre risks and mediocre results. I guess the fact that Sabean was about to sign him should have rung some alarms in my head.
And he essentially had equal numbers to Loaiza for about 6.5 million less dollars.
not true. Loaiza has much better career peripherals and had much, much better peripherals than Saarloos in 2004.
by rebus on Mar 13, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giving a 33 year old inconsistant pitcher 21 million bucks = bad
That, and I don't think the improvement from Saarloos to Loaiza was worth 7 million dollars per season.
by mikev on Mar 13, 2008 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saarloos pitched in the rotation for most of the year
No contending team in its right mind would ever voluntarily enter a season with Kirk Saarloos as the 5th best option in the rotation.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Mar 13, 2008 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
replace "Kirk Saarloos" with "Esteban Loaiza," and "fifth" with "third"
(Yes, I know, Loaiza was in the 4th slot in the season-opening rotation ... but Harden was #2, and we all know what that means.)
I wasn't thinking about anything. I'll have to try to do that more often. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Mar 13, 2008 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he has.
The staff is almost all cheap guys now.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Apr 12, 2008 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with this argument
invest more in the in the draft and then extend a young player just past their FA time -- See Grady Sizemore.
by echerrst on Mar 13, 2008 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In 2014
$100 million will mean a lot less than it does today. We really should be asking if the A's are going to give out a $150-200 million contract 5-10 years from now, because that will be the new "breaking the bank" number.
by thejd44 on Mar 13, 2008 1:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
Certainly that's what an Upton-quality signing would take. That's why I threw out 9 years, 200MM. That's 22.2 million a year, which could look like a bargain by the tail end of that deal in 2020-22, thanks to inflation. Sure, it's a huge risk...but as the financial powerhouses continue to assert their leverage in the next decade, teams like the A's will need to take risks in order to have a chance at making the playoffs. The A's will never again systematically win a playoff berth, as they did in the pre-Moneyball era.
The intelligence gaps have closed league-wide. To win, the A's will need to hit home runs with International signings, pay above slot for draft picks occasionally, and/or hit a home run on EXACTLY the right FA investment once every half decade. Playing it safe with a payroll $30-50 million below the Angels (and M's) will never again yield a playoff berth. The game has gotten too competitive for that.
Consider the upside with Upton, though. The great thing about bidding on a top-tier FA is that it completely removes 90% of MLB from the bidding - that's why A-Rod and Boras had to tiptoe back to the Yankees this year. That's why the Jeff Suppans of the world are the most egregiously overpaid - they're just mediocre enough that, hey, just about every team can afford to bid on them!
$200MM removes everyone but New York, Boston, and LA from the bidding, right away. I can tell you that even though we're six years away. And, considering those teams are perpetually in playoff races, if those teams haven't aligned their finances perfectly for this 2014 arrival (as my proposal suggests the A's could), they won't be a part of the bidding, either. Maybe a few of them are all set in their respective outfields, too. Suddenly we're down to perhaps two teams, and all Upton would need to decide is, "I'd rather not live in city X, this Bay Area climate is great and the new stadium looks beautiful. I've grown to love life on the West Coast. Nice of Billy to throw in a high-rise condo overlooking the field, too."
It's more plausible than it seems at first glance. It simply takes six years of good financial planning, and some luck. I think franchises should look years ahead when making their FA decisions - to only look at the upcoming FA class each year would be incredibly short-sighted for people who do this for a seven-figure living.
Heck, we don't even get paid and we're doing it.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 13, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno 'bout the limited market argument
Part of your argument is predicated on continued rises in MLB-wide revenue, franchise appreciation, and player salaries, and $22M/y ain't all that much higher than current elite player salaries. There's also the possibility that the market could come to the same conclusions you did, and start avoiding the Suppans (which process I think has already started) in favor of spending more effectively (and extravagantly) on elite talent.
There's also the fact that other teams outside the axis of evil have historically jumped in to the elite contract game (most notably, Texas with A-Rod).
Heck, with Tampa on the verge of getting a new stadium and already having a pipeline of talent, they could easily be in the hunt. I'd guess you could have 8-10 clubs willing and able.
I wasn't thinking about anything. I'll have to try to do that more often. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Mar 13, 2008 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hooray for free-agent speculation!
This diary is the most fun I've had since grover's we-should-sign-Vernon-Wells-in-'08 diary two years ago. I like them both for the same reason--because it's fun to imagine that the A's will one day once again become a team that could actually conceive of signing a big-name free agent.
This fan's need for involvement in the offseason free agent shopping spree is also what made JoePoz's Royals leading Santana race blog post last month so funny. It was funny because it's true. The playing field is unfair, and we miss out on something as a result. Sure, we have a great GM who goes a long way toward making up for it, but still--sometimes after getting bargain after bargain out of the used bin, you still want to buy something new every once in a while. Like a kid at Christmas, I want a brand-new shiny outfielder, and I don't want him to be a bargain. Maybe in 2014, for the first time in two decades, we'll have a team that'll be willing to get us such a present.
Brainless Automaton #439
by rubin sierra on Mar 13, 2008 8:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
On an unrelated note...
This excellent diary from Taj last week is past the recommended fan post expiration date, but it's certainly worth bringing back into circulation for those who might've missed it. I learned a lot, thanks Taj (and those who contributed to the comments).
http://www.athleticsnation.com/2008/3/6/252045/2008-minor-league-all-rebo
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 13, 2008 8:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Poor guy
There's a player named Evan Longoria? Damn. It must suck to be him most days.
by cagrrrl on Mar 13, 2008 9:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You would think so
but then you realize that he's basically the top prospect in baseball and will soon be a mega-multi-millionaire.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Mar 13, 2008 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So
What is the biggest free agent signing the A's have had in the past 20 years or so in your opinions?
take money
by yo on Mar 13, 2008 10:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i think andy messersmith was the first 1m contract
He was the first FA. Well catfish was the first but that was different. He sued the Angels for freeangecy. And the braves gave him 1.5 mil. He also went to cal. ive seen him bodysurf in aptos he's a really neat guy.
by skalordes on Mar 14, 2008 2:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
freeangelcy?
I wasn't thinking about anything. I'll have to try to do that more often. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Mar 14, 2008 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IDK the first 1M contract for total value
Nolan Ryan was the first player to earn 1M annual.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 14, 2008 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Visiting from LetsGoTribe ...
I think the focus on free agent signings is a little pointless. Niether the Å's nor the I's are going to be signing a top-tier free agent in the foreseeable future, because free agent deals represent not only intolerable risk but atrocious value.
The first 100M man on the A's will be a contract extension, and it probably will look a lot like the I's situation with Sabathia -- a year or two ahead of the free agency of an elite, homegrown player who's still quite young, and playing for a team that's at the start of a run of contention, not starting to rebuild or likely to rebuild soon. (Of course, the player also has to want to stay enough to forego free agency and tens of millions, which is the issue with Sabathia.)
Or, a less likely scenario is like Pujols, where a player is an obscene young superstar before he ever even reaches an arbitration panel. Pujols got $100 million on the nose with only three years in, and I do think Beane would have done a deal like that as well. He was just 24, and he'd posted OPS+ of 157-151-187 at ages 21-22-23, while hardly missing a game. So yeah, I think any team and any GM gives him the 100M.
Incidentally, you're not alone in this. When the Indians gave Westbrook a $33 million extension a year ago, it was the largest contract they'd ever given any player, then quickly surpassed by Hafner's $57 million deal in June. Lots of teams have never come anywhere near $100 million, and for good reason. We don't know if the Indians will go that far with Sabathia (and I doubt it would make a difference). They went that far with Manny Ramirez but clearly would have regretted winning that auction. Why even root for a deal like that?
So if you're wondering who the first A's 100M man will be, you probably should focus on the players you have already. Unless you get B.J. Upton in a trade in the next 12 months, it ain't gonna be him.
by Jay on Mar 14, 2008 9:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You call 'em the "I's" for short?
Weird.
All the real baseball stuff was interesting but sometimes it's fun to focus on the insignificant points.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Mar 14, 2008 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yyyyyeah, but ...
... despite Beane's recent spate of prospy acquisitions and reinvestment in the farm system/scouting, the A's still don't have many sure-thing high-ceiling kids. Maybe either Gonzalez will develop into someone worth making that kind of commitment for ... maybe not.
Given the way the developmental timelines (both institutional and individual) interact, I'd expect the A's to make a 7-digit FA commitment before an internal one (unless, of course, Beane trades for a truly elite prospect).
I wasn't thinking about anything. I'll have to try to do that more often. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Mar 14, 2008 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The game has changed since then.
That's part of the point of what I wrote. If we could somehow freeze Al Pujols at the time he received the extension - same service time he had then, same numbers, same health - and transport him to 2008, I don't think that Pujols signs that exact same extension.
The best evidence of that is the difficulty in getting MCab or Fielder to sign extensions. Given the amazing earnings potential of arbitration (especiailly in the wake of Howard's deal), players simply don't need the long term security anymore - they could set up their families for a long time even with their arby winnings. So they'll be more inclined to wait it out for FA (if they've gotten to 4 or 5 years already).
No elite player 1-2 years away from FA wants to forego tens of millions of bucks with an extension at that point. For the Indians to have signed Sabathia, they had to make it happen three years ago. They missed the boat, and frankly, an aggressive, early extension for CC would've been a better expenditure than 57MM on a DH who's completely psyched out by the shift. All the Sabathia extension talk that's happened since then has been mostly rhetoric, because when he finally gets an FA deal, it'll nearly double the Indians offer. (~130 mill vs. ~65).
So, no, I don't think you'll $100MM extensions. Those would only be offered to elite players who are 1-2 years away from FA, and as you'll see with MCab, Fielder, and Howard, by that point, they don't want to sign them. The Free Agent rainbow is within their grasp. (A player with Tulowitzki's service time WOULD accept an extension, but clearly, because of his lack of tenure, the extension wouldn't approach $100MM).
To say that "All big FA deals are bad" is ridiculous. For the Indians, and the A's, to make the playoffs in the future, they'll have to take gambles. You just have to pick the right ones (Bonds in '93, Vlad to the Angels). It is possible. I'd agree with you that B.J. Upton isn't the right one. I think that Justin, if he reaches FA, could be.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 14, 2008 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Respectfully, I don't think the game has changed that much since the Pujols deal. The dramatic increase in revenue and overall payroll spending mostly occurred between 1998 and 2003, with a hiccup in 2002 because of the twin threat of recession and strike.
Increased MLB central fund cash, split 30 ways and/or redistributed to poorer teams, has given more teams the cash to shower on locking up the kids beyond initial free agency. That is what has led to the absurd free agent contracts, and while the cause--effect is something of a loop, inevitably the contracts will cycle down at least in length as more and bigger failures pile up. By the way, have Fielder and MCab really been so hard to lock up, or are the teams not really trying that hard? Fielder at least seems to want the big payday now, and Florida didn't seem to want to give it MCab.
Anyway, trust me, you don't want to start playing the game where we trade lists of gigantic free agent contracts, you with the good ones and me with the bad ones. The 1993 Bonds deal was in a very different market, when nearly all team payrolls were between $20 and $40 million. The Vlad deal was just a weird anomaly that looks good precisely because he only got a fraction of what people thought he would get.
Now are you ready for the counter-examples? I won't even detail them -- although the details are truly shocking -- I can just mention their names ... MIke Hampton. Kevin Brown. Todd Helton. Barry Zito. Jason GIambi. Ken Griffey, a huge bust despite a huge hometown discount. And let's just go ahead and add Torii Hunter to the list right now. I could go on (and on and on and on and on).
The problem with the mega-deal is that the team never "wins" it in the long run. The best the team can do is to get a premium return on an equally premium investment. The worst they can do is to join the list of all-time contract trainwrecks, crippling the franchise's ability to compete. It's out of balance -- a good business deal or investment always has some sense of proportion between the best-case and worst-case scenario, between risk and reward. That almost never applies to top-tier free agents. Partly it's winner's curse, partly it's GM's recklessly trying to keep their cushy jobs for another year or two, and partly it's business being owned by fanboys. Three different effects pushing the market upwards, and none of it has anything to do with the on-field or economic value of the contract to the team that signs it.
So yeah, I will say it: all big, true FA deals are bad. Well, nearly all. Some of them turn out okay, but rarely do they turn out better than was hoped -- Randy Johnson might be the whole list -- and quite often they are unmitigated disasters.
I more or less agree with the dynamic on re-signing Sabathia, but that said, is it really wise to extend any pitcher who's already under contract for three more seasons? You may not be aware that his contract was already extended when he was two years from free agency, so that he was under contract for another four seasons (2005-2008) at that point. It's easy to say now -- 120 starts and a Cy Young later -- that they should have given him more years at that point, but look at his numbers through 2004, and look at his waistline. More than four years? Really?
They attempted to extend Sabathia after 2006, still two years away, but could not find any common ground. It is possible that there never was a good moment to extend him. I can't find much fault in anyone's behavior on that. As for the Hafner deal, it's a whole other kettle of fish. I will just say that it will be interesting to look back on all these deals in 2012.
by Jay on Mar 14, 2008 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Payroll as a percentage
of revenues has actually gone DOWN in the past several years. DOWN. As a proportion of revenues, they are now around 41%-43%.
In the NFL, often touted as an example where salaries are well managed, salaries as a proportion of the revenues are in the mid 50s. In the NBA, it is at 57%. In the NHL, after the lockout, after the players conceded defeat, they agreed to a measly 54%. /end rant
"inevitably the contracts will cycle down at least in length as more and bigger failures pile up. "
And yet this has yet to happen. In 2007-2008, $10M per year is about what a league average FA gets. Go back 5 years, and look at what $10M could have bought you. Go back 10 years. And so on.
"The problem with the mega-deal is that the team never "wins" it in the long run. The best the team can do is to get a premium return on an equally premium investment."
Define "wins". Is increasing revenues, increasing ticket sales, selling more overpriced beer, starting a sports broadcast network, INCREASING FRANCHISE VALUE, a "win"? Or do those not count, because you do not know how to properly evaluate them?
"Partly it's winner's curse, partly it's GM's recklessly trying to keep their cushy jobs for another year or two, and partly it's business being owned by fanboys."
And yet the "fanboys" like Big Stein, like Lucchino, have seen the values of their investments appreciate tremendously. Maybe, the "fanboys" actually know what they are doing?
"Three different effects pushing the market upwards, and none of it has anything to do with the on-field or economic value of the contract to the team that signs it."
This is the problem. The Yankees may not be the most "efficient" team in squeezing out "on-field" economic value. The Marlins are often the best at squeezing out "on-field" economic value. Do you think Big Stein, and his little Steins would want to change their practices, and run the Yankees like the Marlins?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Mar 15, 2008 2:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, what did I do to earn the insulting tone?
I'm not familiar with the payroll and revenue figures you cite, but assuming they're correct, I would expect payrolls to continue to climb. I did emphasize that it was length of contracts that likely would come back to the pack, and we have already seen some evidence of this. Contracts of absurd length are already more rare than they were a few years ago.
That said, I don't think the Mike Hampton deal, or a dozen or more others I could name, resulted in "wins" by any definition you might care to concoct. Lots of rationalizations get put forward in this regard -- oh, the lofty real estate plans Tom Hicks laid out, with A-Rod at the center! -- but among the major contracts, few of them have any direct impact on the long-term value of a franchise. Think about Carlos Beltran, who was a "major" free agent as much as any short of A-Rod. But do you really think signing Beltran truly affected the value of the Mets franchise long-term, aside from his on-field contributions to the team's wins? Seriously?
As for the fanboys knowing anything about player contracts, the values of all franchises have increased because of the ability of all teams to exploit media revenue to a far greater extent than in previous eras -- perhaps you don't know how to evaluate this properly. If you do, then it is no doubt obvious to you that this affects all team values in direct proportion to the value of their brand across their media market. There is no team with a greater asset than the Yankees brand in the New York media market.
It has little if anything to do with signing fancy-trinket players of the likes of Jason Giambi and Mike Mussina.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2008 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great points
is it really wise to extend any pitcher who's already under contract for three more seasons?
I think James Shields' new deal is outstanding. The option years give the team tons of flexibility if he falters, but potentially buy out some FA and allow the team to go year-to-year with him if they're in the middle of their contending wheel.
So there's a circumstance - with a young pitcher who's proved durability and had 1-2 good ML seasons - where a pitcher can have three years left on his contract and still warrant an extension. I think that Shields extension was one of the best moves of the offseason.
But you've forced me to agree with you on the Indian's decision to not extend CC two to three years ago, for all the points you listed. For one, I didn't know that the Indians had already bought out two FA years with a previous extension. I've seen the light. Thanks again for visiting Jay - I hope you'll post here more often, now that you've mastered AN 3.0.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 14, 2008 3:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree about Shields' deal, it's very team-friendly. But let's break it down.
He was already under control through 2012 and unlikely to be a Super 2. So let's assume he'd have gotten about $1 million total for 2008 and 2009 in any event. (I'm going to assume the 2009 salary because although it was not guarnateed, only a career-ending injury would have prevented it.)
So the Rays are giving him an extra two-year guarantee through 2011 for $10.25 million. A reasonable deal, but not a great bargain for the team. They can keep him for 2012 for an extra $6.5 million. (That's the $7 million option, minus the $2 million buyout which is already counted in the guarantee, plus the $1.5 million 2013 buyout which becomes part of the guarantee if they pick up the 2012 option.)
Plus, by picking up the 2012 option, they activate the 2013 club option, net cost $8.5 million, by picking up 2012, and the 2014 option, net cost $11 million. Those last two option years would have been free agent years, so those represent tremendous value, considering #4 starters by that point probably will be making $11 if not $15 million.
Bottom line, they're paying him perhaps $2 million more than they should to lock in his arbitration year salaries, but the total risk is low. For that extra $2 million, they get several very attractive club options in future years that could be very beneficial. Worthless if he turns out like Mark Prior, but if he becomes even a Blanton type, they'll have done extremely well with this deal.
Can't wait to see what the Indians do with Carmona ... who unfortunately will be a Super 2 next year.
by Jay on Mar 14, 2008 7:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Shields had slightly over 1 year
of service time. Let's assume that he is not a Super 2. Assume that he is "free" in years 2 and 3, since those are nonarby years. Assume that they pick up all the options.
So his salary would be:
2008: 0, 2009: 0, 2010: $5M, 2011: $4.5M 2012: $7M, 2013:$8.5M, 2014:$11M
2010 would have been his first arby year, They are paying him $2.5M + $1M(2008), + $1.5M(2009). Assume that an arby player gets 40% of FA value in his first year. That 40% number is from Tango. That means his FA value would be $12.5M.
2011, 2nd arby year. $4.5M. 2nd year arby players get about 60% of FA value; so they are valuing him at $7.5M.
2012, 3rd arby year: $7M. 3rd year arby, 90% of FA value; so, they are valuing him at $8.75M.
2013, first FA year. $9M
2014, 2nd FA, $12M.
So, his contract of $39.25M / 7, has an FA value of $49.75M / 7. Using Tango's 2008 salary chart, that is what an FA. That is about what a 1.5 wins above REPLACEMENT to 2 wins above replacement players gets. Ie, about what a slightly below average to average player gets. In other words, Shields is being valued as a slightly below average to average player.
From Baseball Prospectus, Shields was 27 pitching runs above average, about 4.5 wins above replacement, in 2007. But 2007 might be a fluke. He was 2 pitching runs above average in 2006, about 2 wins above replacement.
So, even if Shields regresses to his 2006 levels, and never improves, he would still be a slight bargain under that contract.
Even if you leave out the club options, they are valuing him at $28.75M /5 through his arby years. That is again, approximately what a 1.5 wins above replacement to 2 wins above replacement player gets as an FA.
So, as long as Shields does not perform worse than his 2006 levels, just through his arby years, they are not paying him "more than they should".
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Mar 15, 2008 2:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When I wrote "more than they should," I didn't mean in direct, simplistic comparison to what he'd have gotten in arbitration. A team granting a player three guaranteed future seasons ought to be able to get a discount, since the team has no other reason to guarantee those seasons. I'm suggesting that the Rays, rather than asking for a significant discount, paid a little extra in the guarantee in order to gain club options in the players first few seasons of free agency. It's an interesting choice and possibly a very smart one.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2008 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Top-dollar free agent in 2014...
David Gassko, a terrific analyst at Hardball Times and one of the Internet baseball world's true heavyweights (he's done some MLB consulting), believes I've drastically underestimated the value of that hypothetical Justin Upton FA deal in 2014.
From Gassko: "Baseball salaries rise by about 9% a year, meaning that $200 million in 2014 is like $120 million now. If Upton is an elite player in 2014, $300 million might be a more realistic bet."
If he's the best player in the game over the majority of that deal, $27-28 million a year would still be justifiable. But it further illustrates the need to plan years in advance and adjust the payroll accordingly to plan for that once-a-decade splurge. Otherwise it would be impossible to suddenly absorb a $28 million payroll increase.
Is that possible for the A's? Sure. Simply follow an annual, partial blueprint of this past offseason: When players begin to become moderately expensive (Swisher, Haren), trade them for younger assets.
One superstar FA + a few Sweeney/Frank Thomas type reclamation projects + a horde of 0-3 players = a roster that would still be one of the league's lower-payroll teams.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 16, 2008 8:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Miguel Cabrera's extension...
was for less money than I would've expected, and I think less than most people in MLB might've guessed, too.
That will be a market-setter, or at least a reference point, for a lot of these young superstar future FAs we discussed in this diary.
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod
by notsellingjeans on Mar 25, 2008 10:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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