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5th Starter Derby

Still not too much to go on, but with about a week and a half untill the plane takes off for Tokyo I think it's a good time to start making predictions for one of the bigger battles going on right now in Spring Training.  With Rich Harden at least looking like he will start the season, Chad Gaudin ahead of schedule and likely to be ready when the A's first need a 5th starter, and Duke looking good so far it looks like there will be only one spot available in the rotation when the season starts.  With only a few more games to go no one has really jumped out and grabbed the spot, or you could say all the candidates have pitched well enough to still be in consideration.

So it comes down to:

Dana Eveland, Lenny DiNardo, Dallas Braden, Kirk Sarloos, Greg Smith, and Gio Gonzalez

I would put Eveland as the favorite right now, and he has pitched adequately so far but not as good as some of the other contenders.  Gio has impressed me the most in his Cactus league appearances but with no AAA experience he would have to absolutely blow the other contenders out of the water to leap frog to the top and he hasn't done that yet.  I think Braden and DiNardo slot in behind Evelend in the running and have both pitched well, but Braden's poor numbers with the big club last summer and DiNardo's limited "stuff" mean they have to show a little better to take the lead.  Saarloos is pretty much dead in the water in my mind, with 4 righties in the rotation I think the team would rather have a lefty win the last spot and Captain Kirk hasn't out-performed anybody and doesn't have the "up-side" of any of the other contenders.  As for Smith, I don't really know what to think about him other than I think he is destined for Sacramento.

So what do the great minds of AN think?

Poll
Who will be the A's 5th starter?
Dana Eveland
91 votes
Dallas Braden
11 votes
Lenny DiNardo
26 votes
Kirk Saarloos
11 votes
Greg Smith
47 votes
Gio Gonzalez
12 votes
Other/ I don't know/ I don't care
2 votes

200 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 50 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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Eveland gets the nod

But I think Braden gets some innings this season. If Gio fulfills all the prognosticators' contentions, it would hardly be called a surprise. Then again, Billy seems to take his time with the younger kids--why not let Gio kick some tail for a year in AAA, get a late season call-up, then put him in the rotation next year when the A's are a little closer to contending in the AL West?

by Joey C. on Mar 11, 2008 11:44 AM PDT reply actions  

Rebuilding

I've been having trouble getting my brain around Beane's rebuilding strategy. I really don't understand the Emil Brown signing, the Mike Sweeney addition, the resigning of los Kirk. If, in fact, we are in full rebuilding mode, why sign these guys? I can only see them taking Major League at bats from Carlos Gonzalez, Ryan Sweeney etc.
Is it true that a player will develop better at AAA than at the major league level? If you decide to really give up on a season (or two), isn't it better to get these guys up to the majors early, even if they struggle?
I'd much rather see Gio Gonzalez get innings rather than los Kirk, or Lenny DiNardo.
Are we fully rebuilding, or not? Are we rebuilding a little--and trying to stay competitive? If so, I don't buy that Mike Sweeney and Emil Brown and Kirk and Lenny are going to help us catch the Mariners or the Angels. Maybe we just want to be sure to stay ahead of Texas.

Everything looks nicer when you win. The girls are prettier. The cigars taste better. The trees are greener. Billy Martin

by Steve in Napa on Mar 11, 2008 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

it's mostly about confidence

you don't want to hurt their confidence by bringing them up too early

"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra

by Cheezombie on Mar 11, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

justification

I've thought the same thing on more than one occasion. The only logical scenario I can understand for this is to hopefully buy low, then sell high. I don't know what Beane is thinking, but it would make sense to snatch these guys up off the scrap heap with little invested in them with the hopes of turning them into quality prospects at the deadline. Again, I could be way off base on this assumption, but it makes sense. Then again, it could backfire and all three of them stink it up. Even in that scenario, the team really isn't out much. I guess only time will tell though.

"Didja ever look at a dollar bill, man? There's some spooky s*** goin' on there. And it's green too." -Slater

by OrlandoAsFan on Mar 11, 2008 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

"taking Major League at bats from Carlos Gonzalez"

would you rather have (if i did the math right):
A) a 22 year old carlos gonzalez on the 2008 going nowhere a's
B) a 28 year old carlos gonzalez on the 2012 a's?

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Mar 11, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

2014 in the latter case

And I agree. It's taking major league at-bats... from the Red Sox.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Mar 11, 2008 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

right, 2014 (typo, not a mathematical error)

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Mar 11, 2008 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not convinced the 2008 A's are going nowhere. Angels are hardly invincible.

If Carlos can help the 2008 A's win, then I'd rather have him than worry about 2014.

by WaddellCanseco on Mar 11, 2008 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

i'm not convinced either

but gonzalez will almost certainly be a lot better at age 28 than at age 22.
he should work on his plate discipline in AAA and then join the a's in the late summer.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Mar 11, 2008 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

What about if he can help the 2008 A's win

for the last 4 months of the season AND play in 2014?

It seems foolish to trade two months of play in a rebuilding year for a whole year's worth 6 years from now. I can't see the team making that move.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Mar 11, 2008 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Considering the A's financial position,

there's little reason to waste service time of top prospects on a season which is lost anyway. I'd venture to say that a half-season of development in AAA for Seagon and Gio is not a bad thing, and by farming them out during that period, the team will end up having the rights to them for an extra season in 2014.

There is also the possibility, as OAF observes, of flipping these dudes for prospects. Frankly, I don't see how that's happening with Saarloos, but I don't see how he makes the team in the first place. But if Sweeney and Brown do well in the first half, they could be attractive "budget buys" for teams looking for a right-handed bat at the deadline.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Mar 11, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Saarloos

You are right. I see him more as insurance for if/when the injuries begin to pile up.

"Didja ever look at a dollar bill, man? There's some spooky s*** goin' on there. And it's green too." -Slater

by OrlandoAsFan on Mar 11, 2008 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Having options

I don't think it's really a question about whether players develop better in AAA or the majors as much as it is the fact that all players are different and develop at different rates. There is no one way to handle prospects which is why in a rebuilding mode you don't want to let roster decisions dictate how a top prospect is handled.

As an example, going into the spring no one really knew if Carlos Gonzales was ready for the majors. The A's didn't want to be in a situation where he would be forced to play and struggle in the majors simply because there were no other options. By signing Emil Brown to a cheap one year contract, they can now let Carlos Gonzales determine his own development. If he needs to work on some things in AAA he can start there while Brown plays, and when he is ready the A's can call him up and move Brown to the bench or wiave him because the contract isn't bad.

I look at the other signings much the same way, they provide the A's with options so that they can make decisions about the prospects that aren't constrained by roster needs.

by OkayJay81 on Mar 11, 2008 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Beane's Thinking

I've thought about this some. It's probably not a revelation to any of the good people on AN, but here's how I see it: Billy deals Haren and Swisher because he gets overwhelmingly good returns for them. Now, however, he's got a bit of a PR problem-- the A's traded away their best pitcher and position player, so they must not want to be competitive in the near future. So Billy figures, go with it. Agree with what all the experts are saying. Perpetuate the "rebuilding" buzz. This way, there are no expectations: Either the A's suck and it's just because they're going through some growing pains, or they contend for the AL West crown and Billy's more of a genius then ever before.

So he let's the talkers talk, quietly adds some no-risk-possible-reward veterans, and lets the under-25 crowd do some developing for 2010 or so. It's win-win.

I'd still rather R. Sweeney over E. Brown, though.

by Joey C. on Mar 11, 2008 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Eveland

I only say this because I think the A's front office prefers giving him a chance. He was the favorite at the start of spring training, and while he hasn't blown the competition away, they haven't blown him away. He wins by default.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Gio and Braden as a part of a revamped second half rotation after productive first halves for Harden, Blanton and Duke make them attractive at the deadline.

by jeffro on Mar 11, 2008 12:31 PM PDT reply actions  

I'd be pretty stunned

if more than one of those guys was dealt at the deadline. There just aren't enough hours in the day to work out multiple huge trades midseason.

Of course, I think the odds of them all being healthy and effective for four months are pretty close to zero anyway.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Mar 11, 2008 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I didn't really mean all three of them would be traded but more like... 1 traded, one in the bully one on the DL... or something. Things will work out so that 1 or two of the guys who don't make the rotation out of Phoenix will be pitching in it in the second half.

by jeffro on Mar 11, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm in the Braden as a Reliever camp

I think Eveland is the front runner. He will get it unless Gonzalez goes fuckawesome on us and steals it away. DiNardo probably won't get it unless there is an injury or someone (all) just stink.

Saarloos is for mid-may when Harden, Gaudin, Duchscherer, Eveland and Braden are all injured.

by Zonis on Mar 11, 2008 12:41 PM PDT reply actions  

His velocity?

Haven't heard anything... why? Was there something wrong with it?

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Mar 11, 2008 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was picturing more of a fifth starter fedora

But you want a derby, you got a derby.

I wasn't thinking about anything. I'll have to try to do that more often. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Mar 11, 2008 2:43 PM PDT reply actions  

I wasn't thinking about anything. I'll have to try to do that more often. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Mar 11, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who gets to be Laurel?

I'm going with Gaudin, only because his 190 pound frame is gonna look dwarfish next to Eveland. Of course, there's a big difference between and English guy and a coonass from Lousiana.

by thejd44 on Mar 12, 2008 1:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

I've gotta go with Blevins

"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL

by oblique on Mar 12, 2008 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

actually, now that I think about it ...



I wasn't thinking about anything. I'll have to try to do that more often. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Mar 11, 2008 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don't rule out Smith

I would say that Eveland probably is and has always been the front runner for the 5th starter's spot, but I would say that Greg Smith is right behind him. All during this Spring Training Smith has done what he has done his entire minor league career: get a lot of batters out without beating himself and without a lot of fanfare.

Smith probably doesn't have the same "stuff" as Eveland or Gio Gonzales do, but his career stats compare favorable to Eveland's and he's got the AAA experience and success that Gio lacks. Plus, the A's staff seems really impressed with Smith's poise and mound presence, which are not strengths that Eveland has possessed so far in his career...

So I'd say at this point that the race looks like:
Eveland
Smith
Gio
DiNardo
Braden
Saarloos

by Taj Adib on Mar 11, 2008 3:46 PM PDT reply actions  

Both Gonzalezes have the same deal going

where it looks like they're going to be up sometime this year, so it's distinctly to the team's advantage to call them up after May 1 or so and thus be able to retain them an extra season. Less important, but probably one of those nudge-nudge wink-wink things that goes on all the time without anyone saying so, is that if they don't come up until June, they won't get Super Two arbitration status in 2011 either.

Gio might well be the most qualified of the bunch, but I can't possibly see him getting the nod over the more senior options.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Mar 11, 2008 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

My guess

Eveland has, what, 2 starts left? Smith could probably get 2 more starts in as well, given that there are exhibition games after the Tokyo series.

If Eveland is good in his 2 starts he gets the nod.
If Eveland is good in 1 of his 2 starts and Smith is good in both of his,
Smith gets the nod.

Etc, etc.

by ChadGod on Mar 11, 2008 6:03 PM PDT reply actions  

Personally, I'd think Smith had the edge right now

He has consistently pitched well with an economy of pitches and a great idea of what he's doing; Eveland has consistently wobbled around, pitching in and out of jams and looking like a "thrower" - plus Eveland has an option left and it wouldn't especially be rushing Smith to give him a shot now. Seems like Smith's to lose at this point.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 11, 2008 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

agreed

President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Mar 11, 2008 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

As I point out in the fanpost I just made about the 40-man

What works against Smith is that he's not on the 40-man and Eveland is. The A's don't have to do anything special if Eveland wins the job, but if Smith wins it then somebody has to go. If they're neck and neck, I could see this being a factor.

by thejd44 on Mar 12, 2008 1:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

somewhat agree

I understand what you are saying, and that may very well be the case. I just think it would be pretty asinine to field a weaker team due to the fact that one of the guys is on the 40 man roster while the other isn't. I voted for Eveland prior to yesterday's Cub's game primarily for the same reasons that are being stated on here. That being said, Greg Smith pitched a great game yesterday against a lineup that is very close to what will probably be the Cub's opening day lineup. Because of his performance, I feel like he should get the 5th starter spot. That is unless he totally stinks it up over his next couple of starts. Eveland has yet to have an outing near that good. Until he does, I don't see why he should be given the spot. Personally, i could care less that he has more major league experience. The experience he has is less than impressive. If he really wants the 5th spot, he should have to go out and outperform the competition. Something that he hasn't done.

"Didja ever look at a dollar bill, man? There's some spooky s*** goin' on there. And it's green too." -Slater

by OrlandoAsFan on Mar 12, 2008 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Roster space isn't the most important thing...

but it is a factor and I think it does have to come under consideration in a decision like this. Also, I'm reluctant to put too much weight on 7-9 innings of spring training performance. While Smith has out-performed Eveland so far, it is an incredibly small sample size and it is Spring training. It was nice to see him mow down the Cubs starters but none of them have ever seen Smith before and I doubt Soriano, Lee, and the like are getting to the stadium early or staying late to review scouting reports on AAA pitchers.

by OkayJay81 on Mar 12, 2008 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

true

Spring training is only a small, not to mention unreliable, sample size. But for the time being, it is all we have to go on. I will admit, however, that i am impressed with how Eveland pitched against Arizona yesterday. The fact that none of the opposition's batter's probably come to the park early to watch video is even more reason why the 5th starter hopefuls should have some impressive outings. Personally, i just don't think Eveland has done that up until now. Hopefully all these guys will step it up and make this a very difficult decision for A's management. I don't want my posts to come off as i am against Eveland winning the 5th spot. I think it's pretty common knowledge that Gio is not going to win the 5th spot to start the season. That being said, i just want the afforementioned 5th spot to go to the guy who actually performs the best and earns it. It was mentioned by someone earlier in this post that it probably doesn't matter because they will both endup in the rotation once the injuries start to pile up. I agree with this 100%, so this entire discussion will probably be a moot point come April or May.

"Didja ever look at a dollar bill, man? There's some spooky s*** goin' on there. And it's green too." -Slater

by OrlandoAsFan on Mar 13, 2008 6:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Dana Eveland ...

no reason not to give him the first shot, since he's had enough service time that there is no reason to hold him back.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Mar 11, 2008 8:40 PM PDT reply actions  

Actually, in an odd way, that might work against him

Eveland has almost a full year of service time. (Something like 166 days, IIRC.) So if he's called up, struggles a bit, gets sent down for half a season-- he'll still be over the one year mark, and it'll be like he was in the bigs the whole time.

This isn't a huge consideration (if he sucks, who cares when he becomes a free agent?) but it might lead to Smith getting the nod. Ultimately, I don't think it'll matter, as both of them will be needed to fill the rotation out anyway.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Mar 11, 2008 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

well, if we're looking or someone to "fill out" the rotation ...

That would clearly tip the scales in Eveland's favor.

I wasn't thinking about anything. I'll have to try to do that more often. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Mar 12, 2008 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's hard to imagine that's the case ...

since the only way that would be a factor is if he never gets a call-up, which he almost certainly would (unless he really, really sucked, in which case we really really wouldn't care). There's also the whole 40-man roster thing, which is probably a bigger deal.

Why would both be needed? Harden is temporarily healthy, so is Duke. Gaudin is expected to be ready by the time we need a 5th starter. Blanton'll be there. That's 4 ...

On a separate note, can you e-mail me, I need to ask you something? devinl (a) chccnet (dot) org

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Mar 12, 2008 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, you're probably right

I can't see any way he's not up for two weeks this season short of an utter implosion.

I still find it basically impossible to believe that Harden is actually fully healthy and will remain so for a whole season or even a significant part of one. The A's are going to go at least six deep for significant starters, and given the risk of a trade midseason I'm guessing it's going to be seven. (Not counting spot/emergency starts.)

I emailed you... I'm just hoping the reply isn't an invitation to Internet Jerks Anonymous...

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Mar 12, 2008 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry, membership in IJA

is not open to people who post using their real names.

"Tomorrow it may rain." - Leo Durocher

by andeux on Mar 12, 2008 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Harden only needs to stay healthy for a month and a half or so ...

to save Smith a year of service time ... granted, that's pretty damn optimistic ... but I think it's possible.

Haven't gotten the e-mail yet ... it's just to ask you about some information I think I remember you posting for a Staturday article ... I have two more steps to go with IJA before they'll allow me to sponsor others ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Mar 12, 2008 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm expecting Smith to bounce around from AAA to the majors enough

over the next few years that he'd end up saving the year of service time anyway. He doesn't strike me as someone like Bonds who will still have all of his options at age 40...

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Mar 12, 2008 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

probably a good chance of it ...

but no reason to make that assumption if they don't need to.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Mar 12, 2008 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Eveland has much better minor league numbers

Unless he is simply not improving or not demonstrating any flashes of the potential he obviously has I would have to think you have to give him an extended look, which spring training alone cannot offer.

by ChadGod on Mar 11, 2008 9:20 PM PDT reply actions  

He'll get his extended look

The only real question is, will it be right away or will it wait until the inevitable trade/injury?

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Mar 11, 2008 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Another strong outing

I think Eveland just about locked up the job with the outing today. At this point it looks like it's going take injury or implosion in his next outing to lose the 5th starter spot.

by OkayJay81 on Mar 12, 2008 3:56 PM PDT reply actions  

Eveland by a nose

I think he pretty much cemented his spot on the roster. Smith has looked DARN good, Gio looks great but I agree some AAA seasoning would be ideal. Braden....sigh....meat. SSaarrllooss...sigh...bu-bye. Lenny...I love LennieD but just think if Eveland can do what he has done this spring and we can have someone like Lenny in the bullpen for long relief/back up when Harden's arm falls off, we are looking really good. This is reminiscent of when we had The Big Three. Tough rotation to break into and lots of capable lively arms awaiting. Said it before, say it again...Way to go Billy!!!!

"Doesn't play well with the other children." Ms. Darias, principal, Broad Ave School

by since72 on Mar 12, 2008 6:58 PM PDT reply actions  

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