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Staturday: Pays your dues and takes your chances

When last we met I was defending Billy Beane’s track record in turning 1st round picks into big league starters. From 2002-2006 the A's have had twice as much success in converting their 1st round picks into big league starters. Drafting is not an exact science, focusing on the draft picks that failed to turn out is to ignore the obvious: Billy Beane and his staff have been better at this task then every other front office in baseball.

In spite of that success, the A’s ended the 2007 season needing to rebuild and the farm system was completely inadequate to the task. How could that be? Why did Beane have to trade two young, talented and inexpensive players in Dan Haren and Nick Swisher to procure the bushel of prospects necessary to revive the team? Somewhere, something must have gone horribly wrong for things to have ended up like they have. Injuries, of course, ruined Oakland’s 2007 season but that doesn’t fully explain what caused the overall weakness within the farm system. Every organization has prospects get hurt, draft picks that don’t pan out... it’s the nature of the beast. So why was Oakland’s farm system so unprepared to help the big league team?

Continued after the jump.

Star-divide

Here's my theory:

Billy Beane has been a penny-pinching fool and his lack of foresight wrecked the farm system. He methodically engineered the crisis that compelled him to trade two of his best players for prospects in an attempt to revitalize a franchise that only a year ago was poised to become the dominant entity in a split market. Beane foolishly threw away this golden opportunity because he seemed to forget one of the most basic rules of sports... talent wins. The cold, hard truth is talent costs money and Beane turned his back on two crucial sources for acquiring amateur talent under the guise of frugality or stupidity, take your pick. The result is the Oakland A’s team you see today, a rebuild project expected to take 2-3 years if all goes right.

A couple weeks ago I asked myself "How do teams acquire the talent they need to succeed?" Being an A’s fan, I focused my efforts on prospects and how various teams acquired them. To narrow the scope of my search I focused on the Top 10 prospects within each organization as compiled by Baseball America. To make sure I didn’t pick a fluke year I’ve reviewed BA’s Top 10 lists for every team from 2005-2008. That’s a sample size of 1200 prospect rankings (not to be confused with 1200 players, several players appear in multiple Top 10 lists) and I then divided that sample group into methods of acquisition.

I ended up dividing the data into 6 separate means of acquisition. Based on previous research we’ve seen that 1st round picks have the highest chance of turning into big league regulars so all 1st round picks, including supplemental 1st round picks, were grouped into one column. Again, based on previous work we’ve seen that there is very little difference in the success rates of 2nd and 3rd round picks therefore I grouped them together. All draft picks from the 4th round on were grouped into a third column. Already there was a potential problem. What about draft picks that signed for bonus money well beyond slotted money? What about draft-and-follow signings? So I created a 4th column to take care of the "Bonus Babies". Borrowing (and slightly modifying) from Nate Silver’s work at Baseball Prospectus, any player drafted in the 1st round and who received a signing bonus at least $500K over the recommended slot is considered a bonus baby. That means a player like Justin Upton, who was drafted 1st overall in 2005 but signed for $2.1 million over slot, is counted as a bonus baby and not as a typical 1st round pick. Outside of the 1st round, any player that received a bonus at least 25% higher then the recommended slot would be counted as a bonus baby.

Then I created a column for all the Free Agents teams sign out of Latin America and Asia. The vast majority of this group was amateur talent but a few veterans from Japan’s professional league made it here as well. Lastly I created a grouping of Top 10 players who were acquired via trade, which only seemed fitting since 7 of Oakland’s 2008 Top 10 came via trade. Which segues nicely to my next point: This study does not factor in the recent trades of Johan Santana and Erik Bedard. Sorry, but the study was done before these deals went down.

What I found was a little surprising and more then justifies my harshness towards Beane. I wish I knew how to paste a spread sheet to a diary but since I don’t, hopefully this won’t get too screwed up in the formatting.

How the Top 10 Prospects were Acquired

Year    1st Rnd    2nd/3rd Rnd    4th> Rnd    Bonus    Free Agent    Trade  

2008     32.7%        16%              14%         16%          12.7%        8.7%
2007     29 %          22%              16.3%      15.7%       12.7%        4.3%
2006     28.7%        19%              17%         12.3%       16.7%        6.3%
2005     24%           17.7%            20.3%     10%          18%           10%

A couple minor items of interest before I go back to condemning Billy Beane. The reason why I stopped at 2005 was because Baseball America’s records for signing bonuses were very limited prior to the 2003 draft. Several players from the 2002 and earlier drafts had prominent spots in the 2005 book and while I instinctively knew that some of the later round picks had received above slot bonuses it became harder and harder to find that information. I strongly suspect the 20.3% figure in the 4th> Rnd column is partially inflated by players who should be in the Bonus category. Another tidbit: 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks made up roughly 50% of the 300 Top 10 prospects over the past 3 years.

But the real story to come out of my research was the percentage of Top 10 prospects that came from the Free Agent and Bonus columns. Although the edge has shifted between the two categories, combined they consistently make up 28-29 percent of the Top 10 lists. This is where Beane has failed the A’s. In the 4 years I studied the A’s have had 6 of their 40 Top 10 selections (15%) come from the Free Agent column and they’ve had ZERO prospects in the Bonus column. The rest of baseball has been twice as effective in tapping these two sources of talent and it is entirely because the A’s have not devoted financial resources towards these ends. The blame for that lies completely with Billy Beane. He’s the guy that decides where the money goes and it wasn’t going towards splurging on amateur talent.

Let me paint an even starker picture for you. 3 players accounted for all 6 of those selections for Oakland. Javier Herrera (3 times and looking like a bust) Jairo Garcia (2 times, then he became Santiago Casilla) and in 2008 Henry Rodriguez. Herrera was signed in 2001, Garcia/Casilla in 2000 and Rodriguez in 2003. Has it always been this way? Not at all. In 2002 the A’s had 6 different Latin American signees in their Top 30. Compare that to the 4 year stretch from 2004-2007 when Oakland only had 6 Latin American players TOTAL make their Top 30 lists. Since 2001 the A’s have only signed 2 players that would eventually make a Top 30 list, Rodriguez (2003) and Alexi Ogando (2002). How about bonus babies? The last draft and follow the A’s signed that made Oakland’s Top 30 list was Rich Harden back in 2001. The A’s have not signed a single "bonus baby" in the last 4 drafts and possibly not since they signed Harden. Billy Beane simply has not been willing to pony up the money to go after these types of quality amateur talent.

So what kind of investment are we talking about, anyways? Well, last year the Seattle Mariners spent the second highest amount on signing bonuses in Latin America.

They dropped $2.9 million on 10 players.

The Yankees blew everyone away by investing roughly $6 million on 10 players.

Just for comparison’s sake (and because I shake my head every time I think of it) the A’s have kicked in over $9.5 million to rid themselves of Jason Kendall and Mark Kotsay while acquiring Jerry Blevins, Joey Devine and Jamie Richmond. I know, I know sunk costs and all that but is there any doubt who invested their money better? While it’s true that the A’s have renewed their efforts in Latin America, having signed 8 prospects in the past couple months, it’s going to be a while before we see results in Oakland. P Arnold Leon is the old man of the bunch at 19. Two are 18, three are 17 and the other two are 16. Leon may be fast-tracked after his success in the Summer and Winter Mexican leagues but the rest are at least 4 years away from the Show, if they make it at all. That gap wouldn’t be a problem if Oakland had been seriously investing since 2001 but that hasn’t been the case. An annual $3 million investment in Latin America and the A’s are among the big spenders, why wasn’t this happening for the last 6 years?

Cheap ownership? You might have had a case back in the Schott/Hoffman days but Wolff’s group has controlled the team since April of 2005. In a recent interview with the Chronicle, Wolff said that before the Haren and Swisher trades were made the 2008 player budget was set at $72 million and he had been willing to go up from there. Beane himself has said that he’s had to convince Wolff NOT to spend more money on personnel. Does anyone really want to argue that an owner so inclined would be against spending a few extra million on prospects if Beane had asked for the cash? Spend $3 million a year on 10 players and if even 1 prospect from each group pans out you’ll be ahead of the game. But you’ve got to spend the money to start.

What about the bonus babies? Glad you asked. Guess who spent the most on their draft picks last year? Go on, guess.

The New York Yankees spent a shade over $8 million to sign their 2007 draft class and they gave over-slot bonuses to 5 of their top 10 picks. It isn’t enough that the Yankees can afford any experienced free agent that tickles their fancy, no, they’re willing to spend more then anyone else on amateur talent as well. Sure, they haven’t won a World Series for a while now but dropping $14 million a year on the best amateur talent in the world doesn’t hurt their chances in the long run. $8 million sort of serves as the magical barrier in the draft bonus world. It’s been breached only 3 times in the last 4 drafts, once each by the aforementioned Yankees, the D’Backs and the Cubs. The Marlins and Twins have both come within $500K of reaching the mark and they don’t have any more financial resources then the A’s do. The A’s spent $6.3 million back in 2004 but just $4 million and change last year. It was even worse in 2006 when the A’s spent $1.6 million in the draft. I doubt Oakland spent $1 million in Latin America that year, how can a team that is supposed to live or die on the farm system only invest $2.5 million (if that) on amateur talent in a year? It makes no sense.

So what can the A’s do to help speed up the healing process?

Like Wolff said the A’s originally budgeted $72 million for player salaries. After the trades of Kotsay, Haren and Swisher the expected expenditures total (round numbers) $52 million. That leaves $20 million burning a hole in some bank account somewhere. Set aside $2 million dollars to hire additional scouts and to pay for their travel expenses. These scouts will be used through out North and South America. Set aside another $4 million to use for signing Latin American talent, with the intent of going after the top young talent, the guys that the big money teams try to sign. Traditionally, the premium international prospects are signed between July 2 and August 20. I’m not sure why that is but Baseball America says that’s how things work out.

Take another $4 million and set it aside to use as a supplement to whatever moneys have been allocated for the draft. Better yet, add enough cash to give Beane a cool $8 million to work with for signing his 2008 draft class. I know some people on AN think the A’s will never go over slot to sign draft picks because of Wolff’s relationship with Selig but keep in mind that the Commissioner’s Office has done nothing to punish the teams that went over slot last year. So the A’s options are take advantage of the extra cash and not be penalized by the governing body or hold on to the cash and risk further eroding the fan base by trading more established players in order to acquire the necessary prospects to create a competitive team by the time the new stadium in Fremont is built. And the fear that Selig might do something to stop the A’s from building a new stadium as punishment for offering over slot bonuses is nothing more then a hoax. Bud Selig is going to sabotage a team from having a publicly funded stadium built for their use? Ha! This is a perfect opportunity to maximize the 2008 draft in an effort to further strengthen the farm system and Beane would be a fool to act otherwise.

Beane’s been foolish enough on these matters, thank you very much, and I’d appreciate it if he moved on to a more enlightened phase.

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Nice work

Also, the guy who did the RS study on 1st round picks which you linked recently, philly, also did a survey on teams scouting. He found that the A's had one of smallest scouting staffs in MLB.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 9, 2008 4:43 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I missed that

Linky por favor!

The $2 million bump in scouting that I suggest should become a permenant change in the budget. The number is a rough guess and I would not be against it going higher. If the A's are going to be so dependent on their farm system there is no excuse for them not to have one of the best funded scouting staffs in baseball.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 8:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's fairly clear

that before the recent "reforms," the A's scouting staff was over-stretched and over-worked even in the United States. The "areas" which the scouts are to cover have been completely redone now, but before the reform I understand they were among the largest of any team. Tired scouts = bad drafting? It's certainly a plausible theory.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Feb 9, 2008 9:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Certainly wouldn't help matters
Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 9:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe the real point

is that most teams pay a lot of (bad) scouts to look at a guy's baseball face.

I don't really have a problem with the American side of the scouting, but I do think the A's need to spend more money finding Latin American players. On one hand it makes lots of sense: they're an undervalued commodity in the marketplace. It doesn't take a ton of money to bring in 16 and 17 year old kids from Venezuela.

On the other hand, it's not wrong or stereotypical to suggest that many (not all, many) players from Latin America don't fit the A's mold. They're taught to swing swing swing. The saying, "You can't walk off the island" isn't all that far-fetched; so why would the A's invest a bunch of money into finding players they really don't want anyway?

I guess they could always sign guys like that with the plan to trade them, but if that's the plan from the start I'm not sure it's worth the investment.

by thejd44 on Feb 9, 2008 10:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If you get them when they're 16,

perhaps you can teach them not to swing swing swing quite so much.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Feb 9, 2008 12:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You don't walk off the island ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 9, 2008 1:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is what you're looking for, grover

See comment number 9 in this thread. It also has a link to the SOSH study.

by Faust on Feb 9, 2008 2:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 4:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, that's it.

Sorry for not replying. Been having internet connection problems.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 10, 2008 12:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No problem
Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 10, 2008 2:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

very interesting

I really appreciate your work on this.  I know very little about the inner workings of the farm systems, and I learned a lot.

"Don't be an ass!" --Bill King

by batgirl on Feb 9, 2008 6:08 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Glad you learned something
Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 10, 2008 5:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agree some, disagree some

About bonuses: I think you miss the point on this issue. It's true there's no (apparent) penalty for violating the slot guidelines. But that's still an ownership issue, not a GM-level issue. Wolff is tight with Selig, the A's never draft over slot, and it seems a safe presumption that the two facts are closely related. (This fascinating article by Kevin Goldstein gives an account of the pre-signing slot-enforcement process, which involves the league offices doing a lot of yelling directly at the owners during the pre-signing process.) Until Wolff comes out and says he wants to spend more on over-slot bonuses but Billy won't let him do it, your criticism is misplaced (at least as regards Beane).

About international ndfa's: On the other hand, no such impediment exists with regard to international talent, so I have to agree with you there. The A's have de-emphasized Latin America and achieved minimal results in return for their minimal investment the past several years. While their drafting has been OK, it's asking way too much for it to make up for the lack of any useful influx from that vitally important Latin American pipeline, and I don't see how that buck doesn't stop at Beane's desk.

I think the A's were ahead of the curve when they began applying their quantitative analysis to the draft, and profited by their emphasis on college pitchers and avoidance of high school pitchers and tools-without-skills types. But when other organizations rapidly began copying the most useful parts of the A's scheme and combined that info with sharp scouting, the A's were slow to adapt to the new circumstances. Although the A's sometimes protest that they never abandoned scouts and scouting, we all know the emphasis tilted heavily towards the quantitative. I think the A's de-emphasized international players at least in part because evaluating them (like high school players) did not play to the A's strength in statistical analysis.

Whatever the reason, they haven't had the talent influx a team in their financial circumstances needs to replenish itself without a major overhaul. The good thing is: they've recognized the problem and now appear to be taking vigorous and well-directed action to fix the problem.

by Faust on Feb 9, 2008 6:19 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

How dare you be in less then full agreement!

I hear what you're saying about over-slot bonuses being an ownership issue but Beane is a part-owner in the Oakland A's. He didn't get his stake for being a nice guy, he got it because of the influence and power he has within the organization.

Now, as much as I hate to yield in the slightest on a point, I'll concede that the tight relationship between Selig and Wolff could prevent a Justin Smoak type signing. By that I mean dropping a million bucks on a 16th round pick. However, not all over-slot bonuses require that kind of financial commitment.

In 2004 the Cubs signed 12th rounder Sean Gallagher to a $60K bonus, that's roughly $20K over slot. Do you seriously think the league offices are going to jump in ownership's face over $20K? How about Tampa's Desmond Jennings? He was a 10th round pick in 2006 signed for the equivalent of 6th round money, roughly $100K over slot. How big of a fuss is it going to cause to give a 10th round pick 6th round money?

And there are teams that are willing to adhere to the letter of the law yet still find a way to sign those hard to get prospects. They'll give a draftee the max recommended slot bonus but then they'll throw in extra money by way of a gauranteed big league contract.

So the question is, what's going to make the A's more uncomfortable? Is it the scolding from Selig or the public outcry that comes when they trade Joe Blanton to fill in more holes in the organization? The bottom line is if the A's don't add more amateur talent to the organization they will be forced to deal away young, big league proven talent to patch their holes.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 8:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I hate the "big league contract" strategy

BTW.

There's no better way to artificially force yourself to rush prospects and burn up their options. You have to sign the pick by August 15, meaning you're GUARANTEED to use their first option that season. They will then have three more option years, and at the end of that time... well, they'd better be MLB ready. And you'd better not need to send them down ever again.

For certain college players, I don't really have an issue with it. David Price is obviously not going to spend three years in the minor leagues. But it's an egregiously bad idea when it comes to HS draftees. The extra talent you get with the bigger $$ is counterbalanced by the talent you lose to waivers and busts when guys get rushed to the majors ahead of any reasonable schedule.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Feb 9, 2008 9:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Price is a good example

The Angels taking Jered Weaver 12th overall in 2004 is another. I think if you're talking about a prospect who you expect to either move through the organization fast or bust then I can see going with a gauranteed big league contract for a draft pick.

Like you I'm against them in general but would approve in specific situations.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 9:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We've had top talent slip by us

Justin Smoak is a great example in the '05 Draft 14th round. He could've been signed but we didn't pony up any money. Now they're projecting him Top 5 pick in '08 draft.

mmmmmmm.... VORP Bring back Felix "Lost him to the cards" Jose!

by gdub171 on Feb 9, 2008 11:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What's your point?

That's exactly what grover is complaining about.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 9, 2008 1:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There seems to be . . .

. . . some confusion about Justin Smoak.  Beane has stated that Smoak did not sign over money.

Jim

by jarforcefatherofforce on Feb 9, 2008 5:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, Beane has an ownership interest

I didn't mention that because I take it to be obvious that he isn't the one who calls the shots on ownership issues. I'm sure no one else has more influence on Wolff (although I guess Fisher would have as much influence as he chose to exercise), but for all practical purposes Wolff is "the owner," period.

As for your other points, I don't know how much fuss the league office makes over a 20K or 100K slot infraction. Goldstein's article gave me the impression the league was assiduous about yelling over any infraction. After all, you can argue that a lot of small infractions do more to erode the slotting system than the more occasional and therefore more exceptional mega-signings. In fact, you could plausibly argue that the effect might be the reverse of what you argue: If you're going to be subjected to the same level of yelling/threatening/cajoling/paininthebuttness, you might as well get a Smoak or a Porcello out of it rather than go through all that just to pick up some guy who's still going to be a longshot to amount to anything. (And as an aside: Why the hell did we draft Smoak anyway? To block another team? To buy time while Beane could lobby ownership? I'd like to know the inside story as to why the A's draft over-slot guys with some regularity even though they appear to make little effort to sign them, at least as far as we can tell from outside.)

Obviously the A's could pad their talent base a bit more if they, like a number of other teams, were willing to "beat" their spot in the draft by taking higher-level guys who have fallen for signability reasons. I'd like that. But I don't know exactly what constraints Beane is working under (or Wolff, for that matter). Without that knowledge, I'm not comfortable throwing around words like "foolish" and "stupid."

But then, I'm not as warm and fuzzy as you are. Who is? ;)

by Faust on Feb 9, 2008 1:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting

Very interesting point.

I do want to point out that the A's have not had a great deal of success in Latin players outside of Tejada. That being said, the cost of signing players down there is very small.

2002 - A's top 30 prospects from BA (latin only)

  1. Estaban German (backup)
  1. Franklyn German (Junk)
  1. Juan Pena (junk)
  1. Francis Gomez Alfonseca (Junk)
  1. Claudio Galva (Junk)
  1. Oscar Salazar (Junk)

Not realy a list to look back on as the good old days.

I do wonder if the visa / age lying may have turned Beane off signing Latin players for a while?

Anyway, good read. Thanks

by dougald1 on Feb 9, 2008 6:56 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Just guessing but it seems to make sense...

Like Faust touched on above, the A's have prided themselves on their statistical analysis. That kind of scouting does not play well in Latin America. Signing 16 and 17 year old kids out of the D.R. or Venezuela requires people on the ground using the Ol' Mark 1 Eyeball and dreaming (if you will) about what the kid could become.

What I'm thinking of doing next time is sorting through the Latin American prospects from the last few years and seeing what kind of success rate they have. An interesting footnote to all this, the A's just signed a 17 year old player to the highest bonus they've ever given an international player: $350K. If we were talking about draft picks, $350K would land you a late 3rd round pick. So until the A's signed Mr. Rosario, they had never invested more then the equivlant to a 4th round pick in any Latin America prospect. Studies have shown that a 4th round pick has roughly a 5% chance of becoming a big league regular, bestow that sucess rate to an international signee and you see why I said a 1 in 10 success rate puts you ahead of the game.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 8:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It also requires a standout development

system, which may be even more important than recruiting the best players.  If you have the best academy that gives 16-17 year olds the best chance to get to the majors, the best players are likely to come to you as long as you pay competitive bonuses.

by WaddellCanseco on Feb 9, 2008 11:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks for this

I asked in another thread what kind of resources the A's had been devoting to Latin American prospects during the 1990's (when they had a baseball camp in the DR), and when they began to cut back on those resources.

I didn't get anyone answering there (just some weird comment about Tejada) -- but here you've partially answered that.

by OaklandSi on Feb 9, 2008 7:23 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

The A's still have their DR academy
Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 8:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Small problem...

I do not think your statistics support your argument in that they do not measure the right thing.  You have how top 10 prospects were acquired per method, but I think the important number to consider is percentage of the total universe of players acquired by each method that became top 10 prospects.

Then you can answer the question of who spent their money better.  Because if the percentage of Latin American free agent signees that become top-10 prospects is 5%, then the Yankees spent $6 million on a chance that 1 of those 10 might be worthwhile whereas if you are looking at 20% probability there then the $6 million probably least one with an upside of 2-3 top prospects.  The former case does not look like money well spent.

There is a resource limitation that is also in play.  Let's say the 1st-3rd rounds of the draft are the best places to acquire top 10 prospects, but there is no way to acquire additional 1st-3rd round picks other than to let type-A or B free agents leave. So, there is only so much that can be done with the draft to increase the number of chances at getting a top-10 prospect.

So, the right strategy is to spend money on the the things that have the highest probability of producing major leaguers in order from most probable to least probable until your budget runs out.  I think the key point to make is that the only strategies where money can have an effect on the number of chances a team has to acquire more potential top-10 prospects is through drafting players who drop in the draft because of money concerns and then pay them over slot(essentially expending money and a lower slot pick to get a higher slot pick) or free agents.  But, given a finite budget money must be spent first in the places with the highest probability of producing a top-10 prospect.

I don't think this alters your conclusion though.  As there is no way to acquire additional draft picks, that only leaves signing international free agents as a means of increasing the number of chances to get a top-10 prospect. And, of course scouting in order to increase the probability that any pick or signee in any category will be good.

It does put an interesting spin on the 2002 draft.  Assume that first and second round picks are by far the best chances to get top prospects.  Then, the correct play would have been to draft the best player with less regard to signing considerations.  Beane did not have much control over the money side of the draft though, so had to go with the best player he could sign. In hind sight that would have been a great time to loosen the purse strings in the draft for a short term expense and a long term gain.  Not that the draft was bad, but it may have been better to draft legitimate first rounders after Swisher and Blanton vs players who were probably 3-4 rounders otherwise.

by Donner on Feb 9, 2008 9:05 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Actually the best way to do this

Would be to go through all the big league rosters and back trace how each player was originally acquired. However, that's a minimum of 25 players per team for 30 teams and you'd still want to judge multiple seasons worth of data.

I'll get on that one just as soon as Blez starts to pay me enough for me to turn around and hire my own staff.

I share your concerns though. However, in my research I discovered that since the 2002 season only 1 A's propspect has ever become a big league starter without having made a Top 10 list at some point in his minor league career. So I figured if I stuck to the Top 10's I'd catch, in a round about form, most big leaguers.

Let's say the 1st-3rd rounds of the draft are the best places to acquire top 10 prospects, but there is no way to acquire additional 1st-3rd round picks other than to let type-A or B free agents leave. So, there is only so much that can be done with the draft to increase the number of chances at getting a top-10 prospect.

This is why I've been so critical on the subject of bonus babies. Nearly every guy that made the Top 10 list as an over-slot sign was considered talented enough to go several rounds earlier. most draft-&-follows signed at a rate equivlant to where they were expected to go if they re-entered the draft. Guys fell to the 16th round or the 40th round because of signability issues, on talent alone they were considered worthy of a 1st or 2nd round pick. So there is a way to "add" 1st and 2nd and 3rd round picks without losing Type A or B free agents.

It's called going over slot to sign a player.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 9:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think there is a very real issue ...

in that, while it may from time to time be in the A's best short term interest to go over slot -- in the long term, it would hurt far more than it would help. Weakening the slotting system will mitigate the advantages smart teams on limited incomes can draw from the draft.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 9, 2008 10:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Possibly

It also might lead to the collapse of the current system-- and the implementation of an ACTUAL draft, instead of the half-assed pseudo-free-agency baseball has right now.

In the medium term, it's an issue-- and unfortunately, most ownership groups think in the medium term, since they assume they'll be selling the team at some point.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Feb 9, 2008 12:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Going over slot
The only reason that is available is because other teams do not choose to go over slot, thus creating a voluntary and temporary market inefficiency.  Once the damn breaks then the market inefficiency will go away and these players will be picked and signed at a slot commensurate with their talent.  Although the existence of teams who will not pay Boras level signing bonuses will mean there will still be players that only the rich teams can have, and put not just the A's, but all smaller market teams at an even greater disadvantage.

So, really going over slot just puts the A's into an arms war they cannot win.

by Donner on Feb 9, 2008 1:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The A's are already losing the war

They're ignoring a pool of talent that accounts for almost 1/3 of the top prospects in baseball. It's one of the primary reasons why the A's were forced to trade Haren and Swisher to fuel their re-build.

Can the A's "win" a dollar war over draft picks and/or international signees? No. But they can prolong the fight and survive, hopefully long enough to find another ineffiency to take advantage of later. Who knows, maybe one day the Commish will actually enforce the no over-slot rules and remove the advantage all together.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 4:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Prisoners' dilemma
I realized this afternoon the whole draft slot signing thing is a classic example of the iterated Prisoners' Dilemma. For those not familiar with game theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_dilemma

Basically, if everyone follows the rules everyone ends up better off.  If one does not follow the rules and the others continue the one that does not follow the rules gains an advantage.  If no one follows the rules everyone end up at a disadvantage.

As it turns out the optimal strategy is to start by following the rules and then do whatever your opponent does.  Ideally everyone follows the rules and everyone is better off.  But, when one stops following the rules you also have to.  The draft slot thing is more complicated because there are gradations of going over slot. So, I would expect to see slot creep.  

by Donner on Feb 9, 2008 7:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Slut creep?

Sounds like a bad movie I need to see.

I've got a friend who works in movies and she's about to start a film that's aiming for Velveeta. Vampires, blood galore, bad French accents and (of course) gratuitous sex and nudity.

None of which has anything to do with the Prisoners Dilemma.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 7:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure it's relevant

But only 2 of the 9 prospects acquired in the 3 trades this offseason were Latin Americans not subject to the draft. Of course, it can be argued that the two best prospects they got are the two guys that weren't drafted. Where this fits in, I don't know. But I feel like since the main argument here is about not scouting in Latin America, it should be noted that the A's went out and got a bunch of prospects that were drafted.

by thejd44 on Feb 10, 2008 12:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree ... and you're wrong.

As far as why we're here -- you're right. BB has not used money to build the farm system, like other teams have. Can't argue that point, it's true.

As to whether or not we should blame Billy Beane for that, I think you're wrong.

Let me give an example:

$3m for Latin American Free Agents

plus

$2m for over slot draft bonuses

==

BB has been in a win-now mode for basically the last decade. He has fielded a remarkable series of teams that were almost good enough to add flag number ten to our favorite franchise's glorious history.

Ever offseason he did everything he could in order to give the team that little extra something in order to eliminate the almost.

Granted, not all of that money turned out well spent. Even knowing that, would have really wanted him not to try?

You can't have it both ways.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 9, 2008 10:39 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

There have been a number of signings..

The last few years a the A's have made a number of signings/options picked up that I haven't understood.  In 2006, it was Loaiza and Payton.  In 2007, it was Piazza (I was against it from the start; I think we saw how well we did with Big Hurt and tried to replicate it but forgot to limit our risk and paid 7.5 (?) mil for it).  I also feel this way about Shannon Stewart but his contract was small enough that I can excuse it as a low-risk gamble which I do like.   This year it's Emil Brown (Keith Foulke is a low risk gamble).  

If you put those players' salaries towards Latin America or the draft, instead of getting a few limited upside guys costing money we can go after a lot of high risk high reward Latin American talent or pay over-slot.  It also pays to Beane's strength.  If we are in contention and just need a replacement level or slightly better player to fill a hole, Beane is expert at finding those type of players off the scrap heap a la Hannahan, Langerhans, Cust, and so on and so forth.    

I was particularly disappointed in the '06 draft.  I thought since we had no first round pick we would go over slot in later rounds or allocate the extra money towards amateur free agents.  We did neither.  

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Feb 9, 2008 11:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So you don't think BB should take gambles ...

in order to try to win a championship when the team is close? You can't just retroactively look back and say, Loaiza and Piazza didn't work, so we shouldn't have done those. But Thomas did, so that was a good call. Gambling means you have to take several risks in order to have a single pay out -- as long as the payout is greater than the risk, it's worth it.

btw, Emil Brown is as low a risk gamble as SS or KF -- and, since the team isn't likely to contend, it doesn't really factor into the discussion anyway. He's an investment in not giving Gonzalez, et al the call until later in the season.

Also, Jay Payton was a trade, not a FA signee, but he was also a very good player for us, providing league average offense with plus defense.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 9, 2008 11:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i think the quality of some of those gambles

is under scrutiny, not the idea of taking gambles in general.

Brain Sabean lol.

by rebus on Feb 9, 2008 11:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's a seperate discussion, though ...

BB has a team that is borderline good enough to win a championship.

He has a player that he thinks may help the team, but has significant risk. He could be the difference maker but MORE LIKELY he could be a waste of $7m. (Assume the player makes sense in terms of position, etc)

Should he sign that player?

I say, yes.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 9, 2008 11:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

it's difficult to speak specifically

to hypotheticals.

to me, the Loaiza deal (without hindsight) was an average deal. i don't have a problem with that process, just the results. i suppose a similar case could be made for Piazza, but i don't think it was a smart way to spend payroll.

i think when BB ponders that $7m player, he needs to be thinking about the organizational impact far, far beyond the upcoming post season.

Brain Sabean lol.

by rebus on Feb 9, 2008 11:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, how about a question of principle?

In a general sense, should BB be willing to sacrifice the future in order to try to get the team over the hump and win a championship even if he knows he's not getting optimal talent return for his dollar?

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 9, 2008 1:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's fair

I would assess it this way:

How much does this cost future teams?

versus

How much will this signing contribute to getting over the hump?

I'd rather take that risk with an 88 win team than a 95 win team. I don't think it would be worth it in most cases to add marginal gain for free agent prices with an end goal of the championship. It just won't matter that much.

I think Beane already made a decision like this this off season in trading Haren and Swisher. He could have kept Haren/Swisher, made most other transactions and signed Bonds instead of Emil Brown. That course probably gives the A's a fair shake at '08.

But, in Beane's estimation, it would make rebuilding even more difficult (is that really the case? I actually doubt that). So I think it was decided that too much of the future was being sacrificed for continuously diminishing gains.

Brain Sabean lol.

by rebus on Feb 9, 2008 1:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, so we pretty much agree ...

I'm not saying BB was necessarily 100% right -- just that simply blaming him for spending money on less than optimal veteran FAs instead of on scouting, bonuses and Latin American FAs based simply on a talent for talent comparison misses the point.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 9, 2008 1:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and ...

I think going for it in 2008 would have been more comparable to taking a risk with a 95 win team than an 88 win team.

I think if we kept Swish, Haren and added Bonds we're looking at an 85-88 win team.

As far as the timing of the rebuild, I think there's a very real chance that Arizona (and teams like him) would have had much less interest in Haren with 2 years left than with three. Next offseason also stands to be a pretty good one for starting pitching.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 9, 2008 1:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's true.

It's hard to imagine the A's just letting Haren walk to free agency while posting 85 win seasons, as they didn't really have the impact talent in the system to improve the team drastically over that span.

Brain Sabean lol.

by rebus on Feb 9, 2008 1:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's use this example

Should Beane have signed Piazza last year to try and fuel a shot at the post-season?

Yes.

But I wonder, could a hitter like Cust have been on the radar before the Piazza decision came down? Maybe the better question is, if that $7 million spent on Piazza been ear-marked towards amateur talent would the A's have pursued a Matt Stairs at $850K? Maybe these things weren't discussed or considered viable options, I don't know and I don't want to speculate too much because hindsight colors the discussion.

Was Witasick worth the 2 year/$2.5 million investment?

No.

Was Kielty really worth $2 million last year? Especially with Stewart at $1 million on board?

That's a toughie.

Has Wolff been reluctant to spend as requested by Beane?

The answer seems to be "No".

The point is it costs so little to invest in amateur talent and the pay-off can be so great, doesn't it make sense to invest in the low-risk/high reward options before the high risk/high reward plan?

I say Yes.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 3:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I say yes too.

I really like this analysis although I am not so sure of your methodology. There are reasons that the team is in this fix and I am glad to see someone delve into that.

by IM4Oakgal on Feb 9, 2008 3:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think this is the best way to study this

But it is the best I could do within the allotted amount of time. I'd say this is a 75-80 percent solution.

There's a very important lesson in all this though. The A's have ignored a talent pool that has produced 30% of the top prospects in baseball. That puts a lot more strain on producing in the early rounds of the draft since two sperates studies have shown the poor rate of return on draft picks taken after the 3rd round. A couple misses in the early rounds and the A's are behind the power curve.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 4:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Kinda sad...

should we shoot the messenger? ;-)

by IM4Oakgal on Feb 9, 2008 4:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

After doing all that I could use a shot
Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 5:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

and You deserve one. BTW? I like the way that you try so hard to answer every post directed to you when you are on the front page. It's a nice touch. Glad that you are a front page writer now. Diaries like this one show that the administrators made a good choice.

by IM4Oakgal on Feb 9, 2008 5:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you
Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 5:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Basically you're saying ...

Do better in acquiring talent so that we don't need to spend extra bucks on marginal FAs.

I mean, yeah, that would be fantastic.

There isn't a single right answer as far as where the team should spend its money. Right now the team has no present, so it should be spending on the future. In 2005, 2006, 2007 the team was peaking -- the future was then. At that point it made more sense to shift the balance towards the FAs.

The emphasis should be reevaluated constantly.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 9, 2008 3:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes and no

If you are going to stake your flag on the premise that you don't have the cash to compete for free agent talent (and I'm talking about the vets, not necessarily A-Rod but the Ted Lilly types) and you're going to have to build your team via the draft and (hopefully) international signings then you MUST put the necessary funding towards those resources first.

Then you address the big league teams. At worst you're talking about a $5 million shift in financial resources.

But again, you're using 2006 and 2007 as your examples. Wolff was willing to spend more money. Beane said no thanks. The only reason not to take the money was if Beane did not consider the international market and/or over slot draftees a worthwhile investment. That viewpoint would have effectively ignored almost 30% of the amateur talent available every year.

That would be a slight strategic error.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 4:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree with that first sentance/paragraph.

I think that rigid, dogmatic team building strategies are exactly what Moneyball is in opposition to and is inevitably going to result in losing teams.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 9, 2008 5:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What's there to disagree with?

"We don't have the money" is the line Beane used to say goodbye to Giambi, Tejada, Lilly, Hudson, Mulder and any other former Oakland a that I haven't mentioned.

Building from within is the mantra everyone uses, even if they only lip sync the message. Beane has said, repeatedly, that given the current economics of the franchise (translation: being in Oakland) it is not possible for the A's to retain a sizable portion of their talent base and it is extremely difficult to go out and sign proven talent at market rates. He hopes that things will change with a new stadium in Fremont.

It's not dogmatic if it's the only viable option before you.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 5:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What's dogmatic

the assertion that there is only one way to do things -- by investing heavily in the draft and LA FAs.

I agree that you need to start building the team from there. I applaud Beane shifting resources this year to scouting, signing. We are at the beginning of the cycle, that's what makes sense. Starting this offseason our focus has been, and should continue to be for the next couple of years, on accumulating young, cheap talent. The more we can accumulate, the longer we should be able to stay at the top of the cycle.

As we get to the top of the cycle, though, the focus needs to be on staying there as long as possible and getting the team over the hump to being a champion instead of just a contender. At that point, it makes sense to shift the focus away from the young guys and towards the big league roster.

Following this model DOES mean there will be a rougher landing once the team leaves the top of the cycle. Improving the chances of winning a championship makes it worth it, though.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 9, 2008 5:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Being a contender

Puts a team in the running to be a champion. I don't believe that there should be a big distinction. However, I think we need to find a way to stay in the running and not to need these total rebuilds.

by IM4Oakgal on Feb 9, 2008 5:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're arguing an either/or scenario

that does not have to exist.

There is an inherent penalty when a tean comtends... they select later and later in the draft. If they sign a free agent to help push themselves over the top they can lose a draft pick.

Where in any of that is a team hindered in pursuing international talent? Devo, last year if a team had spent $3 million on signing bonuses in Latin America they'd have been the 2nd biggest spender on the block. How many impact free agents can you buy for $3 million?

Losing your 1st round draft pick after signing a veteran FA does not stop a team from drafting a guy in the 30th round and offering him $750K to sign.

I'm not arguing that the A's should invest in amateur talent just for the sake of it, I'm saying that initial investment will fuel the drive for a championship. The guys you sign now can become the #1 SP or the CF for your play-off push, or they can be used in a trade to acquire a Rickey Henderson to push you over the top.

But if you don't have those prospects you can't fuel either engine. The A's did not have the prospects to fuel the A's needs. Beane could not rebuild with what he had on hand. He could not contend with what he had in hand. So he traded Swisher and Haren to start the build-up.

Why did Beane not have the prospects he needed? He's had plenty of success at the top of the draft. No one can build around late round picks alone. The answer is presented in this article and it's blatantly obvious. Beane has ignored a large pool of amateur talent in his quest for a championship. That choice has now caught up to him and unfortanetly there isn't any shiny trophy around to help ease the sting.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 6:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think there's "money" and then

there is "Manny" money, as in $20 mil per season.

As the Cubs found out, high priced pitchers can go bust and moribund a lot of money. If the Yankees have $60 million in non-performing Giambis and the like, it doesn't hurt. And that is where Beane (IMO) is saying, "No thanks, we don't have the money .." for one player, like Giambi, like Tejada.  Do they have the $$$ for Loiza, yes, and Beane is probably (again IMO) tickled to sign a Loiza when in the older days (Schott-Hofmann) he had to trade a Ted Lilly because he was up for somewhere near $4million a year!  Too much!

I think Frank Thomas would not have gotten a concerted effort in the days of Schott...really, really "not enough money".  But nowadays, when Beane says, "No thanks, I won't spend more" it's because it is not responsible management to say, add Manny and raise the payroll from $72 to $92million.  That's (IMO) where Beane is saying, "No, I don't want to spend more where one collision has a $20mil price tag".

"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer

by One won lost won on Feb 10, 2008 12:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No offense

but I really hate this theory.

Here's why: we know Beane is really good at building a roster for, say, $50 million a year. If he has $80 million, why not build the $50 million roster-- plus A-Rod? Even if he gets hurt, it's still a quality "budget" team. And A-Rod will probably provide more help than four mediocre free agents.

I simply don't understand the rampant paranoia about having a large proportion of a team's payroll allocated to one player.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Feb 10, 2008 12:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

To echo and build on what PT

said, which is the greater risk, the risk that the one great player being paid $20M will be injured to the point that he can't play, and the team won't get insurance on the contract, or the risk that the many mediocre players you have signed with  that $20M, Shannon Stewart, Emil Brown  of the world, will be no matter than freely available talent that you could have acquired with a minor league contact and a chance o a major league contract as an inducement?

Brian Sabean a few years ago famously said this:

shaundarbie: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?

Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Jim] Brower, [Scott] Eyre, [Matt] Herges, [Dustin] Hermanson, [Brett] Tomko, [A.J.] Pierzynski, Feliz, [J.T.] Snow, [Jeffrey] Hammonds, [Dustan] Mohr and Tucker -- obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 10, 2008 1:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but...

You are forgetting one thing...Brian Sabian is not a good GM.

by Threepwood XX on Feb 10, 2008 2:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Loaiza wasn't a good signing but he wasn't

a complete washout either. It's arguable that the A's wouldn't have gotten to the ALCS without him.

by WaddellCanseco on Feb 9, 2008 11:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The difference between Piazza/ELo and Thomas

The thing I didn't like about Piaza nor Loaiza was the amount of money involved in their deals.  They became top 3-4 paid players on the team (I'm not positive but off the top of my head behind only Chavez and Kendall,and about equal to Kotsay).  That's just too much for people we're talking about marginal improvements on.  

As for Emil Brown, you could convince me that's he's very akin to Stewart who I also didn't particularly like but was more "meh" to me (even JayPay falls in that category for me but less so because of his defense and ability to play good CF).  At least Foulke and Thomas were way above average when they were healthy.  That's not to say Foulke will be nearly as effective as Frank was when he was here, of course.  Shannon was average at best for a LF when healthy, so I didn't understand his signing.  Emil Brown has been even worse than Stewart.

As for Payton, I was fine with the trade of Chadford for him (though I didn't think it was that good, I liked Bradford) but picking up Payton's $4.5 mil option was confusing to me.  I did not expect it to be picked up at all when we already had Kotsay, MB, Swish, and Kielty.  I thought Billy could have easily found production like JayPay's for league minimum (hell Matt Watson might have been able to sans defense IMO).  That 4.5 mil could have gone to much better use in drafting or signing amateur FA's.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Feb 9, 2008 2:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Emil Brown

will be paid less next year than Shannon Stewart was this year.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Feb 9, 2008 12:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That Emil Brown will be paid more than...

...me, this year, is an indictment on society.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com - Stop by and mock me for getting my domain stolen.

by Ozzz on Feb 9, 2008 1:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Emil Brown has less of a track record

and is about the same age as Shannon was for us (and arguably hasn't even been as good as Stewart).  As far as I know, Emil also didn't have an injury that affected him for all of last year and the A's think is now completely healthy.  

Not only that, but our payroll is much smaller than last year so proportion-wise they're probably about the same amount of our payroll (rough guess, feel free to refute that if I'm wrong).  And our position last year made more sense last year to add a player like Shannon or Emil.  

All in all, I'm still "meh" about both signings.  

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Feb 9, 2008 2:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You can have it both ways

Just using your example, it would cost the A's an extra $5 million annual to build and attempt to win. That's getting a little extra money from ownership and maybe not being lazy by picking up Jay Witasick's option. You're forgetting what helped fuel the A's play-off runs... trading prospects for rental vets that would help push the A's into the post-season.

Is Wolff lying when he says he's willing to spend more? Is Beane lying when he says he tells Wolff to pocket his wallet?

If you want to have it both ways you MUST prioritize the the spending within the amateur market. This does two things: First it enables you to build with inexpensive talent (which frees up more cash) and second it gives Beane the power to work the trade market in an attempt to go for it at the end of the season. I think it would be much easier to convince a sceptical owner that an extra $1.5 million would help the A's land a solid vet for the 2nd half of the season and fuel a shot at the postseason then it is to ask for that same amount of money to sign some prospects that would help the team 3 years down the road.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 3:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Witasick

Look at the two seasons Witasich had before coming to the A's. The stats show he put up good numbers the season before he arrived and the season in which the A's traded for him. He had the same kind of numbers as Embree at half the money. It was not a bad signing until he got hurt. I think you arebeing a little unfare to Beane lazy.

by dougald1 on Feb 9, 2008 3:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Witasick couldn't handle pressure

Yeah he put up good numbers in Colorado but he almost always cracked when placed in a high leverage situation. Going from the Rockies to a play-off minded team like Oakland gauranteed he'd be placed in more high leverage situations, exactly the type of situation he failed in time and again.

Witasick was a guy you could only use in a blow out or no later then the 6th, maybe 7th inning if he was hot. He was basically the 5th or 6th man in the bullpen and the A's should have been able to find that type of arm without spending a million bucks a season. San Diego in particular has had success that way and Oakland has always been more interested in throwing strikes over raw stuff.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 4:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Linebrink

But in this age of non-closer relievers getting 4 years at 5 million a year, I do not look at two years 3.5 million (or whatever it was) as being over the top. Deals that Farnsworth, Spier and Linebrink got are the head scratchers. The problem was that Jay got hurt and was not anything. Trust me, there is no joy in defending this guy, for he sucked for the A's in 2007 and 2006. It was a gamble by Beane to try to turn Jay into a 7th inning guy here and it did not work. This is the same idea as Embree and he worked out fine.

by dougald1 on Feb 9, 2008 4:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

For one thing

this age has already seen a significant price jump from the 2005/2006 offseason that saw the A's sign Witasick to his deal. It's very possible that Witasick could have gotten a similiar contract to what Linebrink received if he was in a similiar market. But that dives into a Time/Space continuom discussion I'd like to avoid.

I will say this, Embree had proven himself better in high leverage situations then Witasick. Jay was/is a pitcher that does not hold up under pressure.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 4:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Was Farnsworth the same year?

Anyway the killer is Jay W. got hurt and thus made it a bad deal. My only point is that if he was not hurt the deal Beane gave him would have been ok. Not great but ok.

Fun read, thanks

by dougald1 on Feb 9, 2008 4:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And the dollar's getting weaker

Which is to say, as others have observed, the buying power of pure cash seems to have diminished in the last few years.  "All" the free agent classes have been weak, "all" the teams dealing star veterans are demanding prospects.  In a league where even the weak revenue teams are doing quite well, the big money teams seem less able to just throw cash at their problems.  Which makes a deep farm system more critical than ever.

There is an A in Whimsy.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Feb 9, 2008 4:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

grover, it's not as if Sacramento

has an empty roster.  The team is a winning team, fer crying out loud.  And has been a winning team for some years.  Whether a player is a lifetime AAAA player, or the next Albert Pujols, usually it is extremely difficult to forecast for 90% of the players three-four years out from their teen years.

If the A's ended up with a bunch of AAAA players, unable to compete at the MLB level, that's just how the rule of large numbers worked at the minor league level, years 2002 to 2006.  I don't think Beane "ignored" anything.  He only gets 23 hours, 56 minutes like the rest of us.  Maybe when DePo left, the talent scouting was hurt??

Nice stat work, but even reading them, much less seriously looking for the holes, ....it isn't worth it time-wise.

"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer

by One won lost won on Feb 10, 2008 12:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

grover, do you think Beane has caught on...

...to his oversight as you have explained it?

  We have heard him say over the last several years how he wants to "win now and build for the future". Obvioulsy the trades of Haren and Swisher reveal a flaw in his inability to "invest properly" in the amateur draft and foriegn prospect signings. While we can now gloat over the the number of prospects in our system, this does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for the casual A's fan who just wanted to see his favorite pitcher (Haren) take the ball every 5 days.

  Like I used to say, if you burn your mouth on hot soup you'll end up blowing on your yogurt. Beane certainly has "overreacted" with the recent attention he has suddenly given to the farm system in terms of bolstering he scouting department. In his hubris, I agree with thomaswalker that he should have just come out and admitted that this year's team has very little chance of competing for the pennant. From a marketing standpoint, it would have been the honest thing to do.

  Still, we are left rooting for the laundry. I now understand why when you buy an A's jersey it's blank on the back. This is more symbolic of the turnover of young players on our team than any would have ever imagined.

"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King

by Gerard on Feb 9, 2008 12:30 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Okay

In his hubris, I agree with thomaswalker that he should have just come out and admitted that this year's team has very little chance of competing for the pennant. From a marketing standpoint, it would have been the honest thing to do.

Look, he's all but admitted this in the interviews he's given. He can't literally come out and say "our team is going to be terrible next season." That would be like giving money away.

Also, the above sentence is weird.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Feb 9, 2008 12:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously, you are a season ticket holder...

n'est pas?

  How would you like it if some of the most marketable players on your team were sold for prospects but the management didn't bother telling you they are throwing in the towel? How do you call this "entertainment" when the entertainers are sent packing?

  Look, you've got to remember only a small % of A's fans are ANers. All they see is what's happened to the team and wonder why. I don't disagree philosphically with what Beane did. However, it could be construed as disingenuous. Frankly, I don't see a gain or drop of A's fans by 20% with regards to attendance anyway. For fans to give up their allegiance, that takes years of ineptitude to acheive that. The converse is also true.

  Personally, I'm excited to what our team looks like for better or worse b/c the process of tinkering with a roster is always fun to watch. I'm not as put out as thomaswalker but I see his point. Really, marketing in baseball doesn't add a whole lot. A team's success is the bottom line. Right now it's back to....delayed gratification.

"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King

by Gerard on Feb 9, 2008 1:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is a silly dispute

Any fan, seeing the team's stars traded away, is going to conclude that the team is not trying to win next season. AN people might be informed enough to know that they're being traded for quality prospects and not as salary dumps. (Or... ahem... not.) But even we know that the moves presage a year or two of non-competitiveness.

Any team that doesn't come out and, explicitly, tell the fans "We're going to suck, so don't bother showing up this year" is being disingenuous?

I mean, no kidding. They're being just as disingenuous as they are when they, say, promote guys for awards they have no business receiving, trumpet new arrivals while hiding the DFAs of other players at the bottoms of press releases, and a zillion other things. Which all baseball teams, and all corporations for that matter, do all the time. You're confusing public relations with reality.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Feb 9, 2008 4:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, forgot to mention

I'm most definitely not a season ticket holder... good lord, I don't have anywhere close to that kind of time. I went to two games last season.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Feb 9, 2008 4:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nope, just bored at work

As Voros McCracken will undoubtedly confirm, being a bored paralegal carries with it a dangerous inherent risk of becoming addicted to baseball analysis.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Feb 10, 2008 12:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You must be...ahem-ing...someone else

Or perhaps the first 50 times I said the A's needed rebuilding escaped you.  Or when I said the Haren and Swisher deals were motived by that need.  Or when I painstakingly explained the difference between cause and effect...cause=rebuilding, effect=prospects, lower payroll, and larger short-term profits.

Man, talk about disingenuous.

There is an A in Whimsy.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Feb 9, 2008 5:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Is there some reason

why you insist on repeatedly picking fights over this?

I think it's safe to say that everything that can possibly be said on this subject already has been.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Feb 10, 2008 12:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Quite right, it's all been said

which is why I respond when someone mischaracterizes my opinion despite the great efforts I've put into being crystal clear.

It's the Fox News response to nuance...if yesterday Voltaire said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it," tomorrow Shepard Smith will screech that "Voltaire's soft on terrorist speech!"

So when you suggest that anyone on AN (that I can recall) thinks the roster purge was not first and foremost a rebuilding job, you're playing that same demagogue card which is really beneath a person of intellectual rigor.

There is an A in Whimsy.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Feb 10, 2008 8:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I too think you're kinda right, but mostly wrong.

Yes, the A's need to spend more on their draftees and scouting. Sure. But the reason the A's farm system was so gutted was down to one major mistake, and that ain't it.

It all came down to the mistaken belief that there's no such thing as 'injury-prone'.

For the last few years, Beane has been stacking up on players in which he can find added value by virtue of the fact that conventional wisdom says you stay away from guys who have been crocked recently.

If you look through the drafts from 2005 and 2006, we got a TON of guys that would have been taken higher, if not for the fact that they were either injured, coming off an injury, or had been injured the previous year badly enough so as to hurt their stats and worth in the eyes of scouts.

Tommy Johns were everywhere. Blown knees. Hammy tears. Shoulder issues. Bad backs. They proliferated the draftee ranks, and what's more, Beane was grabbing similar guys at the Major League level (Snelling, Denorfia, Piazza) to go along with the 'unlucky-in-health' major leaguers he already had that he was sure would be healthy again with an easy off-season or so (Harden, Kotsay, Chavez, Crosby).

The ENTIRE SYSTEM, from top to bottom, was filled with inexpensive guys who nobody rated because they'd kept breaking down, with the thinking being that there's just no such thing as injury-prone, and thus those players would soon hit their potential if they only had a few months to heal.

Unfortunately, when your Major League core is injured all year, and the guys you've brought in to assist them are injured all year, and the guys you've drafted are injured all year, then you're forced to retool with other teams cast-offs (Dinardo, Halsey, Lugo), and bring guys up who should by rights be in AA ball (Putnam, for example) or AAA ball (Windsor and Braden, for example), which means every level of the minor league system has to move up early to accommodate.

End result? Loads of injuries, loads of AAAA guys in green and gold, and loads of losses up and down the system.

I've always said, it wasn't that the A's didn't have talent in their minors, it's that the talent they had was being forced to be Major League ready early to make up for the fact that the ML roster was a M*A*S*H unit.

This season, that came to a head, and Beane finally figured out that some guys are just made of balsa wood. With that knowledge in place, he had no option but to start afresh.

Oh, there's one other reason the system looked more spartan than it was - we went from college-only draftees to high school draftees in one fell swoop, which means you have a developmental gap of about two years being inserted into the mix, right when we suddenly needed to draw on the minors like few years previously.

Give Italiano, Sulentic, Sellers, et al another few seasons to get their arms and bats aflame, and we'll be saying "remember when we thought the A's had nobody of worth in the system?"

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com - Stop by and mock me for getting my domain stolen.

by Ozzz on Feb 9, 2008 1:02 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Injured draftees ...

Some turn into Vincent Mazzaro ... others turn into Trevor Cahill.

One Trevor Cahill will make up for a lot of Vincent Mazzaros.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 9, 2008 1:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He could turn into Rich Harden...
...won't help much unless he can get his hiney off the gurney.
Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com - Stop by and mock me for getting my domain stolen.

by Ozzz on Feb 9, 2008 1:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He's shown that he's probably not injury prone

he was probably just injured. That and that he has a ton of talent.

What more do you want from the kid?

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 9, 2008 1:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why, blood, of course.
I'm an A's fan.
Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com - Stop by and mock me for getting my domain stolen.

by Ozzz on Feb 9, 2008 2:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That arguement doesn't hold water

For one thing, you want to focus on the 2005 and 2006 drafts but to expect those drafts to provide talent for the 2007 big league season is a stretch. Buck had to have about a half dozen guys ahead of him drop dead before he got his shot. For another, the A's did not suddenly stop drafting college players. Their first two picks in the 2005 draft were Pennington and Buck. In point of fact, 6 of their top 12 picks were college trained. In 2006 the A's were without a 1st round pick and they did indeed use their top two picks on high school players but they followed that by taking college trained Chad Lee, Jermaine Mitchell and Andrew Bailey.

In both drafts the A's ended up selecting twice as many college trained players vs. high schoolers.

Even more interesting, as much as you complain about the drafts being littered with recovering patients, two of the best arms from those drafts (Andrew Bailey and Trevor Cahill) most closely resemble the type of player you say hindered the system's development.

If there is one thing the A's have done that would have contributed to a slow down in development is they've started to focus on drafting not-so-polished college players with greater raw upside. Recent draft picks like Corey Brown, Jason Ray and chad Lee fit this description.

Yes,injuries hurt the farm system but every organization faces that problem. The organizations that best withstand those injuries are the systems with more available talent. You don't hear the Dodgers complain about losing Elbert, Orenduff and Miller because the next wave was already on the way in Kershaw and McDonald. The Dodgers had that depth because they did more then go after slot friendly draftees. Oakland bet everything on one kind of prospect for a long time and when they missed (like in 2003) it stripped away their depth.

Add in a plague of injuries at the big league level and you've suddenly got an organization that can't help itself.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 4:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good comments, Oz

Well done.  Probably the best analysis IMO.

"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer

by One won lost won on Feb 10, 2008 12:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He's wrong

How can the wrong analysis be the best? That kind of hurts my feelings.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 10, 2008 1:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Great post Grover

is there a way you can do a financial success rate of for players on teams who went over slot.

The theory to test would be : Yes - the probability of a bonus baby making the majors is better than a "typical" pick, but is it worth it to a team to always pay over slot?

Another thing to consider is the ratio of 1st rounders taken to 1st rounders in the top 10 draft picks / Bonus Babies to Bonus Babies in the top 10 / etc...

by echerrst on Feb 15, 2008 2:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That would have been good to include

Not a single bonus baby to be found! (I don't want to type ZERO repeatedly.)

By year:

2008 (BA rank N/A)
1st: 1  2nd/3rd: 1  4th>: 0  FA: 1  Trade: 7

2007 (BA rank 27th)
1st: 1  2nd/3rd: 4  4th>: 3  FA: 1  Trade: 1

2006 (BA rank 26th)
1st: 2  2nd/3rd: 3  4th>: 2  FA: 2  Trade: 1

2005 (BA rank 8th)
1st: 5  2nd/3rd: 0  4th>: 1  FA: 2  Trade: 2

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Feb 9, 2008 5:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

just a personal note

but my feeling has been that Beane has focused much on building a great organization on the least money, more than just building a great organization. Part of the fun for him has been in the "bargain hunt".

by apilgrim on Feb 10, 2008 3:50 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

99%

Why does the vote total % (currently) only add to 99%? Why does it not round the Not guilty vote to 45%? Will the "new" AN fix this bug?

by Larry E on Feb 10, 2008 11:17 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Screw Swisher And Haren

Screw Swisher And Haren What We Need To Win Some Championships Is Another Big Three And We Just May Have One In The Making With Gio Gonzalez Brett Anderson And Cahill. Thats What Billy Really Wants Thats Why He Made Those Trades. Billy Is A Slick Mother Fucker.

by abou on Feb 10, 2008 1:52 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

+10
"I still say put Jack Cust on some roller skates, arm him with a squeeze tube of epoxy, and let him loose in CF...righteous!" -MRod

by notsellingjeans on Feb 10, 2008 3:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget about

De Los Santos, Alberto Rodriguez, Simmons and Bailey ...

Big 7?

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 10, 2008 4:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Big 8

Throw in Leon, too.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Feb 11, 2008 12:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bigness

True with all these prospects I think we have a solid stable that could possibly improve if Beane finds the right price for Blanton.

I always felt that Rick Peterson was a big reason our pitchers did so well once they got to the majors.  Teaching Mulder and Hudson that it wasn't about strike-outs but inducing ground balls that realy killed an offense.  All I can remember is Hudson and Mulder on top the strike-out leaderboards one season and then disappearing the next but leading in ERA.

Over the past 7 years I think Beane traded away a lot of upcoming talent to get the "now" players because he was making his run then at the WS.  Out of those trades we've seen plenty of players make it to the bigs and do well.

by calistyle on Feb 11, 2008 10:30 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

This is great.

Truly a day we will never forget...... oh umm yeah Billy is good too, but this site is great. I just hope Shannon Stewart gets picked up so we an get another draft pick

Your 2008 East Bay Athletic Rivercats of the greater Fremont Area!

by asfan777 on Feb 13, 2008 9:23 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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