A's to Sign Foulke
by Swishdball on Feb 8, 2008 1:00 PM PST
Email
PrintLooks like a major league deal.
Slusser has the details. Here's the link.
225 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Hahahaha
Doesn't seem to make much sense. But hey, can't really hurt, I guess.
wtf
first the return of sarloos, now the incredible foulke? is john jaha coming back, too? probably smart moves by beane, especially if he decides to trade blanton and street for more prospects - we need guys who can actually play on the MLB roster to allow our many prospects to learn in minor league ball until they're fully ready to contribute. no need to rush these guys to the big show.
Beane has been collecting
by Sigur Ros on Feb 8, 2008 1:13 PM PST reply actions
If he gets healthy ...
he could bring a decent haul come July.
well let's see if curt young is right
Are the A's re-signing him to pitch, too?
His changeup is probably down to 60 mph now
and it has great seperation from his fastball
which sits in the high 40s.
This doesn't make any sense.
There is already a logjam in the bullpen, whether its because of option years or guys with major league contracts already.
Even if Street is traded, there wouldn't really be room for Foulke on the roster.
Color me confused.
The roster
is full.
With 22 year-olds, injury risks, and assorted crap.
Never a bad thing to be carrying too many pitchers. I like the depth this move would bring along (so long as the deal is for <$1 million.)</p>
by BWH on Feb 8, 2008 2:26 PM PST up reply actions
+1
Although I don't really care what his deal is worth.
by methodrampage on Feb 8, 2008 4:00 PM PST up reply actions
If Foulke does well,
do they get rid of Street and make Foulke the stop gap closer?
Why bother with Foulke though?
What about Embree, or Brown, or Devine, or Casilla, or Calero, or Duchscherer after he can't cut it as a starter, or Harden after he shatters his arm again and can only throw 15 pitches at a time?
Embree might have some trade value.
The other guys, probably not.
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 9, 2008 7:02 AM PST up reply actions
That's it.
You can trade Embree and get something back.
And you can have MotherFoulker for nothing.
Roster flexibility?
I see several potential reasons for this signing:
- Sign Foulke to reduce closer supply, thus upping Huston's potential trade value.
- Hope Foulke plays well enough that he can be traded for prospects.
- Trade Embree, keep Foulke as setup guy/back-up closer.
- Use Foulke as experienced veteran for the youngsters (ie. train-your-replacement)
- Oakland Athletics: 2008 World Champions!!!
Three-phase business plan
Exhibit A:
- Collect relievers.
- ?
- Oakland Athletics: 2008 World Champions!
Exhibit B:
- Collect underpants.
- ?
- Profit!
This reminds me of my post
on Sickels' site about Hunter Pence (kinda sounds like underpants if you say it quickly).
Also, I've always been a Foulke fan. I don't know if he has anything left, but he's a guy I'm happy to root for.
by thejd44 on Feb 8, 2008 8:17 PM PST up reply actions
Beane's assistants: the Undervalue Gnomes
If we were Lookout Landing
someone would have found a picture of the Gnomes and photoshopped it by now.
Is this....Groundhog Day?
Does this mean Beane has a trade lined up?
Perhaps this means Beane is set to trade Blanton, in which case Duke and Dinardo would be needed in the rotation. Or, maybe he's set to trade Street.
One thing is for sure... the A's are certainly and interesting team.
DiNardo
OK, for the last time, with Dan Meyer and Dana Eveland out of options, Gio Gonzalez; Matt Smith; and Dallas Braden; Mike Madsen; and Andrew Bailey waiting in the wings for a shot sometime during the season, and whomever comes back in the hypothetical Blanton trade you based you're argument on, all needing rotation time, there is no way DiNardo gets anything other then a spot start.
I honestly can't figure out why people want him to start so badly. Is it they just can't accept the A's are in a rebuilding mode and would rather play the devil they know (even if his upside is nothing but a long reliever/5th starter) over a prospect who could be a #3 starter or better in the rotation for years to come?
I just can't see any rational argument for playing Lenny DiNardo in the rotation for more then a spot start and can't see how other people constantly come to the opposite conclusion.
by Threepwood XX on Feb 8, 2008 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
Eveland
Doesn't he have an option left?
by methodrampage on Feb 8, 2008 2:19 PM PST up reply actions
Nope
Everything I've read has said Eveland is out of options.
Maybe you're thinking of Devine who has an option left due to the speed he made it to the bigs.
by Threepwood XX on Feb 8, 2008 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
Farhan
In an article that was posted here a few weeks ago stated that Eveland has 1 option remaining. I'd find the article for you but I'm not that motivated.
eveland and devine
both have one
I have one.
And so does my wife!
were you recruited by Berkeley?
Everything you've read
is incorrect. He has an option.
by notsellingjeans on Feb 8, 2008 11:40 PM PST up reply actions
Helloooo 1st's comment is incorrect?
No, Hellooooooooooo 1st was right
My response was to the previous comment.
Swearing on my wife's and my future first born:
Devine and Eveland both have an option left. The confusion is understandable - at point, scout.com mis-reported that Devine was out of options, and another website had reported that Eveland was too. That led to further confusion, because our readership read THOSE columns, and spread the word.
But officially, emphatically, truly, madly, and deeply, Devine and Eveland do indeed have an option left.
And if you look at how many guys we already have committed to the big league roster, it wouldn't be a surprise if one or both of them started in the minors simply because their current contract situation allows for them to.
With the inevitable injuries that will occur, either in ST or during the year, they will most certainly be up during the season.
But the fact that they CAN start the season in the minors, and DiNardo and Meyer can not, almost certainly influences the team's plans on paper.
by notsellingjeans on Feb 9, 2008 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
Who's Matt Smith?
You mean Greg, right?
by BWH on Feb 8, 2008 2:27 PM PST up reply actions
Greg Smith's upside
is Lenny DiNardo.
I'm not sure what the advantage of playing him would be. Playing DiNardo might induce a team that needs a back-of-the-rotation arm to swing a trade.
Dinardo should learn the knuckleball.
He's already got the velocity for it.
Blanton + Street
For Bailey and Bruce... Come on Beane!
"I'VE ABANDONED MY CLOSER!!!"
"IIIII...sign your closer! I sign them all up!"
Jenks for the memories...
Okay, now that I've seen the movie,
that's funny.
Beane is a false prophet...
and Fremont is a superstition.
The Mark Mulder trade
...was a false profit.
For StLouis!
Who's with me? (Raises hand for high fives)
(Is left hanging)
New team motto
"Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal."
Could be my motto, too...
Looks like there's going to be a steel cage death match for bullpen spots in the spring, that's for sure. We're at, what, nine guys for seven spots now? Even with options and what I assume will be a nonguaranteed deal for Foulke, it's going to be impossible to fit everyone in.
hahahahaha
good motto to have
wow. simply amazing
But we're the A's.
By the end of spring training, 6 of those guys will have Tommy Johns.
We're like Dusty Baker, only through apathy rather than incompetence!
In other transaction news
the Erik Bedard trade went final today.
Let us all say a prayer of thanks for the incompetence of Bill Bavasi.
Wow..I like that for Seattle
A flat out stud SP for guys who MAY end up being studs. Gimme the sure thing....Makes Seattle instant contenders with Anaheim, something they werent with Adam Jones instead.
are you just a contrarian
or do you really believe these things?
contenders with anaheim? too far.
I view him as the Skip Bayless of AN...
definitely a contrarian, but does not view himself as such.
by SwisherSweet33 on Feb 8, 2008 4:54 PM PST up reply actions
Ah... celebrity blowjobs...
No, I believe it...
That is how good I think Bedard is. I take a top 5 pitcher in MLB for an OF prospect any day of the week. He and Felix are a nasty 1/2. Yea, AJ may end up beign great, Bedard already is. I think they can contend with Anaheim. I still dont love the Angels O with Torii and Kelvin already may not be ready to start the season. I think Seattle is a definite contender in the West.
i agree with you on how good he is
whether they are now contenders is another thing
Yes, he and Felix are a nasty 1-2.
So that puts them at 64 wins for the year.
Well done, Seattle.
The 3-4-5 are even more nasty, though, the
advantage is the AL field.
by theblackpearl on Feb 9, 2008 2:36 PM PST up reply actions
Not too far if ...
Escobar spends a significant amount of time on the DL.
by methodrampage on Feb 8, 2008 5:33 PM PST up reply actions
If you think Seattle was a contender last year,
this view makes some sense.
I do not. I view Seattle, last year, as a team which was insignificantly, if at all, better than an A's team which was grotesquely decimated by injuries-- in a year in which Seattle had virtually none of them.
Silva and Bedard are a major upgrade on Ramirez and Weaver, that's for sure. Probably 7-8 wins better. But the downgrade from Jones to, I guess, Brad Wilkerson eats into that, as does the loss of Sherrill-- and the long-term price they're paying is enormous. Meanwhile, I think they're still significantly weaker than Anaheim (albeit within striking distance if they luck out) and they've seriously damaged their farm system in the process.
And there's no guarantee
they'll have Bedard for more than 2 seasons - and since most people don't expect the A's to seriously contend over the next 2 years this actually could be great for Oakland. Seattle is better during years Oakland isn't ready, then when all those M's prospects are ready to really contribute, well, they're in Baltimore now and Bedard is either going elsewhere or staying in Seattle on a big-money deal while starting his post-prime years.
by thejd44 on Feb 8, 2008 9:43 PM PST up reply actions
The dowgrade
from AJ to Wilkerson might be great, the downgrade from Jose Guillen to Wilkerson, once you consider Guillen's D last year, is probably not.
Of course, the long term price is likely to be heavy.
Sounds Familiar
Trading a stud for guys who may end up being studs. Beane has been doing that for years.
by Archaeologist on Feb 8, 2008 8:44 PM PST up reply actions
As Foulke once said...
"I had to take the money and run."
Welcome back to the guy who was indirectly responsible for Arthur Rhodes as the A's closer in 2004.
Yup
and I'm still pissed he tried to "sneak" a fastball past Ortiz (Game 4,'04)... he goes with the change there and I think Papi (god, I hate that nickname)screws himself into the ground and strikes out.
I still think they told him "if you throw the game, we'll sign you next year and win it all." Bastards.
As with the Emil Brown signing...
I will invoke..."The pennant is ours!!!!"
Green Machine?
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Feb 8, 2008 6:46 PM PST up reply actions
You get pennants for 50 wins these days?
You might in the NL Central ...
Thank you for wrecking my attempt
to forget the-closer-who-shall-not-be-named. That's years of therapy wasted. **sob**
"No. It's Oakland."
I actually use Rhodes as a reliever on MVP05
I think that if I play well with him enough I can get history to be re-written and all of those blown saves will go away.
I have mecir as a AAAA injury fill in also.
by Athletics fan and runner on Feb 9, 2008 5:02 AM PST up reply actions
I need to buy one of those machines
because everytime I think about Rhodes, I still feel queasy. It seemed like everytime he came in the game it was a blown-save. I know that's not true but that's the way it felt. Never have wished him well since...yeah I hold grudges.
i used to use
rhodes as a starter for the orioles in triple play '97...can't beat that game. jason giambi listed at third base. wonderful.
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown
I think the A's looked at the rotation and said,
"We need to shorten the game to...like...3 innings. Then it's Brown, Devine, Embree, Casilla, Foulke, and Street." AL West crown, here we come!!!!"
LaRussa and multiple pitchers/game
LaRussa tried using multiple pitchers in a game. He paired pitchers up, with the first guy slated to go something like four or five innings and the second guy wouldget the resst of the game. It didn't work very well from what I remember.
Tony also would switch pitchers every batter as he did several times in the 1994 season. This worked for a short while but the bullpen was starting to implode from overuse when the strike saved them from getting totally torched.
IIRC, it was
three 3-man groups. The starter would be limited to 3 innings, the next guy 3 innings, and then they'd go from there.
It didn't work out well, but I've always wondered whether that was because it was a poor scheme, or just poor talent attempting to execute the scheme.
Well, for one thing..
...it doesn't make sense to pull a guy who is stomping for three innings, to replace him with someone starting from scratch.
I could see it working for a spot start, or even a #5 spot if you have two similar guys vying for the spot, but I think the option that would be more likely to work if tried would be a 6th starter who was, say a lefty, who would come in after two innings of a right-handed 5th starter, to exploit match-ups for the majority of the game.
That's why MVP '05 method, and it works rather nicely on teams that alter their lineup to suit the hand they're facing.
the three inning rotation
That was in 1993 when they were already out of contention.
I would love to see an article about it as I have not seen one in awhile.
by Athletics fan and runner on Feb 9, 2008 5:03 AM PST up reply actions
I will boo this loser everytime he comes
into the game; in fact, any time I see him. I'll never forgive him for blowing game 4 of the ALDS against Boston in 2003 and then leaving Oakland for Boston "so he could go somewhere to win a World Series."
Memo to Foulke: had you not blown that game we very well could have won the World Series.
Message to Foulke: Foulke YOU!
It will be a two handed salute
Foulke You!
by SwisherSweet33 on Feb 8, 2008 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
rofl my wafl
Foulke's arm was clearly sore
When he got overworked that year, his fastball dropped from low-90s to high-80s, and his changeup became less effective as a result. I was expecting him to get hit there from how he was throwing.
I was kinda hoping for a screaming liner right to 1st.
And if the A's had won, they would have gone the rest of the postseason without Hudson or Mulder, and evidently having to count Steve Sparks as part of the rotation.
It sucks that the wheels were coming off, and I wish they had finished off Boston, but I don't think a championship was in the cards.
Maybe not a championship, but
at least a trip to the second round. Hudson, I remember being hurt. I don't recall anything being wrong with Mulder.
by SwisherSweet33 on Feb 8, 2008 4:52 PM PST up reply actions
He was out the entire last few months
of that season.
Still, the rotation in the next round would have looked like Zito, Lilly, Harden, random-- which isn't THAT bad.
"Dammit, our starters are dropping like flies!
Where's Harden?!"
God knows how he would have pitched, since he was coming out of the bullpen that series and not pitching very well (Chavez saved his ass when he caught that shot down the line in Game 1). And, IIRC, that was during the time when Peterson had changed Harden's delivery (not without reason, it turns out!) and he wasn't pitching very consistently.
especially with
Lilly dominating like he was. I don't think we would have been in that bad of shape. I know Huddy missed his turn due to the bar fight, but would he have missed round 2?
by SwisherSweet33 on Feb 8, 2008 5:10 PM PST up reply actions
Lilly was kicking serious ass--
he could have ended up being one of those crazy feel-good postseason stories in the second round.
"No. It's Oakland."
Mulder
said that he wouldve pitched in hte LCS had they made it that far.
too many other things went wrong that series
miggy and byrnes on the basepaths in game 3, the mystery behind hudson's injury, macha leaving zito in one pitch too long in game 5, and then batting melrose for dye in the last of the ninth.
i don't think bringing him back makes much sense, but i wouldn't hang that series loss solely on his shoulders.
as for his comment about going to a winner, well, ok, it doesn't make much sense. but maybe it was to please the ears of the bostonians, and not necessarily a parting shot at oakland.
Don't forget Miggy and Chavez
Man, that game sucked.
I remember watching that game and just sreaming
"wtf??!?!?!?" over and over and over......
by Athletics fan and runner on Feb 9, 2008 5:06 AM PST up reply actions
we win that night
and there is no Huddy-bar scene, or anything else that followed.
damn.
but i guess the world needed to see Yanks-Sox again, Pedro-Zimmer, Aaron Bleeping Boone, et al.
He made a bad pitch to Papi
and was asked to save a one run game and to pitch 2 innings. Not like he blew some easy, big lead save. Seems a bit much to never forgive him for.
Oaktown Power, my buddy...we meet again
failures on the field are forgiveable. Comments made to the press that he wanted to go somewhere where he could win a World Series are something not easily forgotten. Sometimes I think you just disagree with me for the sake of disagreement.
Go A's
by SwisherSweet33 on Feb 8, 2008 4:50 PM PST up reply actions
If that were really the case
Oaktown Power would end all his comments with "Stop A's"
Yea, I hate the A's
because I am not always optimistic...Doesnt make me root for them less. Good try though.
Looking back, I may have....
My bad.
by OaktownPower on Feb 9, 2008 12:02 PM PST up reply actions
I didnt even look at the name when I posted
Have we disagreed a lot? If you just said the comments to the press fine, but you included the blown save. That was as tough a save as one can have....just saying I wouldnt dislike him for that....That was a very tough spot to go into.
Agreed. To me the comments are what did it.
adsf
by SwisherSweet33 on Feb 8, 2008 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
On the upside..
..should he make the Hall of Fame, maybe he'll wear our cap now!
</snark>
This is how I feel about Foulke:
Foulke was good enough that Beane actually made a competetive offer to him before he left as a free agent. Unfortunately for us, he signed with the dreaded Red Sox, a traitorous gambit unrivalled in the history of baseball since Giambi signed with the Yankees before 2002. The backup plan to Keith Foulke was Tom Gordon, a reliable set up man who had previous closing experience. But Foulke dilly-dallied too long, and by the time he decided to sign with Boston, Gordon had gone to New York. The backup to the backup plan was Arthur Rhodes, making - in my irrational mind - Foulke solely responsible for this game, the last I saw in the Coliseum before moving away to - of all places - Boston, where I had to hear about how he was the world's greatest closer during their championship run in 2004. The worst part was having to hear how the Red Sox "discovered" him, as if saving over 40 games with the A's hadn't put him on the map.
So enjoy your retirement, Keith Foulke. May Arthur Rhodes haunt you nightly.
foulke is my least favorite former a's player
foulke is the reason we ended up with rhodes and then traded for dotel. considering the 04 a's missed the playoffs by one game, i blame foulke for that as well.
another reason to hate Foulke...
....if not for him, Huddy would've won the Cy Young. Foulke blew like 8 saves in his best year, and I think 6 of them were Huddy's (potential) wins. Huddy ended that year something like 15-5.
18-5 or better would've been good for the hardware....
6 Degrees of Keith Foulke
Can all A's-related (and maybe worldwide) misfortunes be connected to him? Quite possibly!
I once heard
his former baby-sitter dated Kirk Gibson.
Also had a tip that his dad knew Billy Hatcher.
Keith Foulke secretly owns ...
... every single parcel in the flea-market lot.
Keith Foulke spent last year...
living on the third deck.
The A's were nice enough to give him a tarp.
specifically, in section 317
That's where the A's got the idea for the AYCE promotion -- fans in 317, like opposing batters facing Foulke, will get to feast on junk.
Don't forget keeping him singlehandedly
out of the All-Star Game by blowing 3 or 4 saves for him in the first half, his only blown saves at that point. He even said in an article that he was the reason that Huddy wasn't going.
"No. It's Oakland."
i read a little bit
and once people started hating on white cleats, i x'ed out of that box quick
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown
so Foulke doesn't "want to sign with a winner"?
That reputed quote after he strung the A's along only to sign with Boston didn't seem to make alot of sense then since the A's were contenders (although Foulke did get on the 2004 World Series winner)....but now it's obviously not his concern.
I was reading on MLB Trade Rumors that Foulke was throwing in the 81-84 mph range...
Foulke's exact quote in 2003
when he signed with the Sux:
"I want to be a winner before I get out," Foulke said by phone from his home in Arizona, "and I can't imagine a better place to be than Boston over the next three or four years."
Nothing about winning the World Series...
Here's the link
That implies that he wasn't in a place
where he thinks he could win.
by SwisherSweet33 on Feb 8, 2008 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
I see it more
Not so much an insult to the A's as a compliment to the Sox. If you wanted to win as much as possible would you rather go to Boston or LAA in 2008? Doesn't mean LAA couldn't win in the next couple years, they're very talented for sure, but if you were looking for best chance to win I don't think its that hard to choose.
that would make sense in 2008
but the comment was made in 2003.
It is theoretically possible to compliment the new team without dissing the old one..
And Boston won more games
in 2004 and 2005 than Oakland did. 7 more games in each. Its possible that it would have been closer with Foulke for us and we could have skipped the whole Rhodes/Dotel experience, but I doubt it would have been a 7 game switch.
I dunno, maybe?
I doubt it but I mean its possible. Maybe he's a great talent evaluator. Maybe he just guessed and got lucky.
Whatever the reason he was right.
He was right wasn't he? they won the WS.
As much as I hate the blown save and going to Red Sox. Just because he thought Boston had the best chance to win doesn't mean he thought Oakland sucked. PLUS he said those comments after signing with them, of course he's going to say that.
Maybe the A's want Foulke to help Street with his change up?
Or that his plan was to blow saves...
...then hang on long enough to get the win.
no
that was billy koch
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown
boooo.
i was so mad at him after '03 and the running-to-the-red-sox thing. that won't be forgotten too easily.
Slusser says it's official
she writes that the A's have announced their signing Foulke (some might say five years too late)
and the A's press release
announcing Foulke's signing is on their website now
To make room for Foulke on the 40-man roster, they DFA'd first baseman Wes Bankston
Maybe the Giants will claim him
although they didn't bother to claim Chris Shelton... who is presumably better...
Well, who knows what dark thoughts traverse the mind of Brian Sabean.
why do the giants not do anything
that they don't do...
a paradox.
Shelton is too young.
Incidentally, so too is Piazza.
So which traded player was OaklandA23?
We haven't been getting any pre-release alerts for a while!
None other than the linchpin in the AZ deal...
Connor Robertson.
Nah.
The players are the last to know.
I've told more guys in Vancouver that they're being sent up/down than you can even know.
"I'm going where? Hey coach, do you have something to tell me?" <Oz exits stage left>
A re-run?
Yippee! Could this mean Swish is coming back, in 3 to 5 years, too, just in time for the new park?
Rerun? Hey, Rog!
I kind of remember writing
a post that was titled something like Foulke You, You Foulking Foulke after he signed with the Sox. It was probably because he was truly a great sight to see coming into the game when he was here. Especially after the roller coaster rides that Izzy and Koch always seemed to be.
Regardless, he's another temporary player in a transitional season. The good news is that is he's healthy, the A's could easily deal Street now knowing that they have another option in the pen to at least take his place. Or they could flip Foulke to a contending team if he proves his value.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Feb 8, 2008 7:15 PM PST reply actions
This doesn't sound ...
like such good news to me.
The good news is that is he's healthy, the A's could easily deal Street now knowing that they have another option in the pen to at least take his place.
I like Utter Hotness!
Better than Tofu Elk Hike?
Definitely...
I know what Tofu is, I know what a hike is, and I know what an elk is...what I am not sure of is what is meant when you put those 3 words together. hehe.
Ooh! much better!
Marginal thematic relevance more than outweighs incorrect spelling.
ESPN is reporting
the deal is for $700,000 with incentives that could boost it to $2.5 million.
Also, I'm sad to see so many people here aren't Foulke fans. As someone who has brought signs to baseball games, I feel like my best one was "Foulke You, KW. Koch Blows (Saves)." Held it up as Foulke was coming to the visitors bullpen at Comiskey in 2003. It got a laugh out of him.
I really don't see how this is a bad deal. Even if Foulke doesn't have it anymore, it's worth the $700,000. And if he's good, he's definitely mid-season trade bait.
by thejd44 on Feb 8, 2008 10:15 PM PST reply actions
people hate Foulke
because he played the A's to get a better offer from the RedSox with out even meaning to sign with the A's at all, which led the A's to;
a) miss getting Tom Gordon
b) Lead to the A's getting the remnants of Arthur Rhodes
c) Trade Ted Lilly for Bobby Kielty
Hey, I have no problem with Klown Power.
If Foulke got us Bobby Mac, then he gets a golf clap from me.
If he doesnt have it, it's a complete waste of $
Given that the A's have been spending pretty heavily on Latin free agents this offseason, I'd think that 700K would have been possibly better spent on another few high ceiling youngsters instead of a "stopgap" who hasn't thrown a pitch in 2 years - especially when there are like 8 guys to fill 5 positions in the bullpen even without Foulke.
But hey, I guess we can go after Billy McMillon and maybe Gil Heredia or Ron Darling if we trade Blanton.
Let's not go overboard here
There's a limit to the amount of money you can spend effectively overseas before it gets to the point of just handing out cash to teenagers. (And it's not like other teams aren't signing themselves.) It's $700K. That's not really a lot of money, and the A's have plenty in reserve for farm system upgrades.
As with Emil Brown, the deal is a flyer on a guy who might bring in a prospect or two at the deadline. It certainly worked wonders for the Rangers with Gagne last season.
I've seen Eric Gagne. I've watched Eric Gagne.
Emil Brown is no Eric Gagne.
If Foulke pans out ...
we'll get ~2 B caliber prospects for him. We'd be lucky if one of those 2 LA free agents turned into a B prospect three years from now.
Two comments - Foulke and the M's
*Too bad that during his year away from the game, Foulke wasn't taking his Sammy Sosa/Troy Percival year-away-from-the-game cocktails that don't get tested for when you "retire". (Why do you think Roger Clemens started giving himself 8 month offseasons the last few years?)
*I DO think Mariners have to at least be considered potential contenders. We've been saying for two-plus years now that the Angels are a Vlad back injury away from being quite vulnerable. At this point, the Mariners would be the obvious beneficiaries of that (mis)fortune, while the Rangers and A's have plotted different courses.
Two huge IFs, and I recognize their implausibility:
- IF the Mariners signed Bonds and planted him at DH, then platooned Vidro/Sexson at first to maximize their health and contribution, and
- IF Vlad does finally break down...
...a 90-win Mariners season and a playoff berth are not hard for me to fathom at all.
I think the M's had to do Bedard. Bavasi doesn't have Billy Beane-like job security; that forces his hand. He's gotta win soon, so he might as well go for broke, otherwise he'll be watching the team from his couch in two years anyway.
Secondly, their entire franchise and fan base would be kicking themselves if the Angels tanked and yet still were allowed to win the division with an NL Central-esque 85 wins. That's could've happened if the Mariners had stood pat this offseason.
Somebody had to at least make the Angels break a sweat to get into the playoffs.
(And I also think that Beane forsaw the M's going for broke four months ago, and that factored into his decision to rebuild. I think he knew that if he stood pat he'd end up the 3rd best team on paper, and that's much, much different than being #2 on paper. The #2 team only needs one other team to suffer bad luck to sweep in there).
by notsellingjeans on Feb 9, 2008 12:06 AM PST reply actions
I still think the A's
have as much talent as the Mariners. I just don't like how the Mariners run their organization. I'm not a fan of a lot of their guys, even if they do have a solid system (but aren't most of those guys 19 and years away?).
by thejd44 on Feb 9, 2008 2:37 AM PST up reply actions
Really? Who on the A's is Ichiro?
Who on the A's rotation can touch Bedard?
Putz is a real closer--we have Street who is so shakey we got Foulke as the plan B.
Do we have a home run threat like Sexson?
Do we have a young stud starter like Felix?
Mariners are not great--but they have established stars and two super stars--Bedard and Suzuki.
Um
Huston Street is a better pitcher than JJ Putz.
Also, Richie Sexson is unbelievably godawful. Jack Cust was approximately 923749027 times better last season.
Putz is better
and not injury prone.
Cmon....Better than Putz?
Have you looked at his line the last two years? Just remarkable seasons. I love Huston more than most, but he aint Putz, sorry.
by OaktownPower on Feb 9, 2008 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
Over 4 seasons from age 27 to 30,
Putz has averaged 17 pitching runs above average.
Over 3 seasons from age 21 to 23, Street has averaged 15.67. In both of those seasons, his numbers have been depressed by injuries. He gave up about half the runs he surrendered in all of 2006 during about a week and a half dead-arm period.
Honestly, if I was to predict which one would perform better solely for next season, I'd pick Putz. But I have no doubt whatsoever that Street will have the better career of the two.
I'm not sure why so many people here have such a negative opinion of him-- is it just because he doesn't throw ridiculously hard? It's not his fault that the team ran out of relievers and he had to go three innings in the last game of the '06 LCS.
It isn't that
We have a negative opinion of Street. It's that Putz is doing such a great job in Seattle while Street spent a lot of the season on the bench last year injured. And remember he can't have a better career than Putz unless he has a healthy career.
Kind of misleading to use 3 year totals ...
Street's best year was three years ago, so was Putz' worst.
Over the last two, Street has averaged 11 praa and 60-1/3 ip (prorated to 13.7 runs over 75 ip), Putz has averaged 33.5 and 75.
2005 matters -- but much less so than 2006 and 2007.
Also,
Putz added a sinker after 2005 corresponding to the big jump in his numbers, so his 2005 should be discounted even more.
how many pitches does he throw now?
4?
I only ask because of that mild elbow strain he had some previous spring.
I don't know how many he has
but he pretty much only throws the fastball and splitter at this point.
That is incorrect.
It is always better to use three year totals than one year totals. That's one of the biggest misconceptions in fandom.
I was using two years ...
If the most recent two years are very different from the one three years out, you shouldn't weight them more heavily?
No, unless you have a good reason to strike
performance from the record (learned a new pitch is one reason, but I don't consider injury to be another) you are better off not doing it. Thumb-on-scale skullduggery is bad for you.
I will be writing something for THT next week about dynamic weighting of past performance.
More heavily than "normally"?
Unless you know something specific that would cause a permanent change in performance: new pitch, the guy has had both his knees explode on him: tore his ACLs, MCLs, LCLs, PCLs and meniscii on both knees, or something like that, suffered a shoulder separation AND dislocation, I would argue no.
If you don't know, would it not be better to just leave the data in there, and weight it normally?
Not always
If someone adds a new pitch and suddenly gets way better, that is a good reason to not use three year totals. If, say, Kielty switched to RH-only and his split came way back to the center, that would be another reason to distrust a three year total.
i love huston
but i don't think after a season with a sub-.7 whip or whatever it was, putz is not as good as him.
side note: holy shit, i had no idea putz is about to turn 31. wtf?
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown
Funny post
I'm not much of an Ichiro fan. He's fine now, but if there's a such thing as an empty .333 average, he's it. He's already in his mid-30s and he won't be worth the money (on the field) they're paying him now.
Sure, they have Bedard. Felix has been up and down. He's so young and probably will be good for a while, but to act like he's a top pitcher in the game or something isn't right. Plus, it can be argued that the A's have 2 or 3 young studs like Felix. They just might not be pitching at the start of 2008.
The A's signed Foulke because Street is shaky? Well, that's an outright distortion of reality. Now, if you had said they signed Foulke because Street is a top-notch established closer who might be traded, that would make sense. Street is 23. Putz is 30. Give me Street every single day of the week and fifty times on Sunday.
Sexson? Seriously? Ok, just stop. Please. Come on now. Last year Sexson had 2 more home runs than Mark Ellis. And Sexson, as far as I know, doesn't even like unicorns. Sexson is terrible now and there's a handful (if not more) of A's players who are more of a home run threat.
The Mariners overachieved to win 88 games last year (pythagorean record of 79-83), and it can easily be argued that they aren't really any better this season - even with the addition of Bedard. I expect the A's to be a .500 team in 2008.
by thejd44 on Feb 9, 2008 10:12 AM PST up reply actions
Putz was the best closer in baseball last year
Check the stats--not the name. Street was 13th--behind Embree--in the AL. His blown save % was among the highest.
Sexson when healty is a consistent 35 HR-100 rbi guy--yes he strikes out plenty. But the A's have noone with that track record.
A's may or may not have young piticng studs --Felix is starting MLB games--not dreaming of starting MLB games.
You must be right Ichiro is an overpaid hack.
All of Billy's over paid hacks are on the A's payroll but not the roster.
I think that reports of Richie Sexson's demise ..
may be slightly exaggerated.
He's probably not as pathetic as he was last year. I think .260/.330/.500 would be a reasonable expectation for him -- with significant upside in Slg and downside everywhere. .830 OPS is a league average 1b. It's not great, but it's not horrible.
JJ Putz has been incredible the last two years. Definitely better than Street. The concern, though, is that he had never been particularly good before that and, given his age, is someone for whom the odds are going to get much, much worse over time.
Felix Hernandez is a good, very young pitcher. What's a little troubling, though, is that his numbers, across the board, were almost identical the last two years. He didn't show any improvement, at all. His k, bb, hr rates stayed almost exactly the same, while his hit rate increased a bit. He's still so young and has such fantastic stuff, that, assuming he stays healthy, he will be a star. It's far from certain that he'll stay healthy, though, and there's a very good chance that this isn't the year he'll break through.
I'd hardly call Eric Bedard an established superstar, when he's had one season in his career that he has managed to stay healthy all year and one that he posted a superstar caliber era ... and, no, they weren't the same year.
I'd agree that Ichiro is a superstar -- with the caveat that stardom does not necessarily correlate with ++ talent. Ichiro is a good player. He hits for a great average, supplements it with a reasonable amount of power and a reasonable number of walks (both below average, but not terribly so). He is a terror on the basepaths and adds a few runs a year for his team there. He's a good player -- he's not a great player. He's an insanely unique player -- and that's why he's a superstar.
You had it right, when you said that JD should check the stats, not the name for Putz v Street ...
You seem to have kind of forgotten that with everyone else.
Richie Sexson
is a league average player with a 14M dollar contract. He's not the player to tout when arguing for the Mariners' chances at the AL West.
Putz/Street is about a wash in my opinion, though I think there are cases to be made for either pitcher.
I think, since the Mariners made the Bedard deal, they should be going all in for the next 2 seasons. I'd have to look at their roster/contracts more closely, but they'll need to improve their team more if they want to feel good about '08 and '09.
Without repeating all the above analysis
to make these points, my two cents:
- A healthy Putz is better than a healthy Street, but given their ages I might still rather have Street long-term. But for 2008, given health and current levels of domination, I'll take Putz.
- Sexson is really overrated and grossly overpaid. I'll take Barton right now over Sexson at 1B.
- Bedard (assuming health) is a legitimate #1 in his prime - that doesn't mean Seattle made a good trade, but it does mean they significantly upgraded for 2008.
- Ichiro is a damn good player. Not just the high average (and yes, singles are better than walks) but also "steal 40 bases in a row without getting caught speed" and top-notch defense at any OF position, including CF.
Finally, Seattle and Oakland are still not in LAA territory for likely contention, but I wouldn't be shocked if either finished ahead of the other in the standings. Harden, Duchscherer, and Gaudin's health, all iffy (in that order) could make a HUGE difference.
Putz/Street
is very close. Here's my take:
Putz:
He's gonna rack up more Ks and fewer walks for at least a slightly better K/BB.
He's under a nice contract through '10.
08:$3.4M, 09:$5M, 10:$8.6M ($1M buyout) per Cot's
He's a lower injury risk than Street.
Soon to be 31, he's entering his decline phase. In my opinion, the $1m buyout mitigates most of this risk.
Street:
Improved on his K rate last season, though he was a bit wilder in general.
Under club control for 3 more seasons.
Has to be considered at least a moderate injury risk with last year's scare and his delivery.
At 24, he hasn't peaked yet and it's a good bet that he'll improve over the course of his tenure with the A's.
If you look at their respective projections (fangraphs links) you'll see they're nearly identical. When considering Street will probably be paid only slightly less, improve, but is also a more significant injury risk, it's pretty much a wash.
Kind of a reply to everyone ...
who cares about their contracts? The A's are a better value. The Mariners are a better team. I believe the latter is the point of this here discussion.
as long as MLB is a business,
it matters to me.
I know I'm not cutting the checks, but there are financial limitations for every team, so it makes sense to evaluate the contract attached to a given player. Especially when you consider that players are paid according to their performance (in theory) and that value per dollar can vary a great deal.
It matters to the A's ...
they need to be more efficient, since they are going to have a lower payroll.
It matters less to the Mariners, since they are going to have a fairly high payroll.
When comparing the two teams, the fact that the Mariners have several talented, but overpaid players and the A's have less talented, but better bargain players is inconsequential.
Yeah, I agree.
Sexson makes a difference for them I think, but, like I said, Putz has a great deal for them. You're right, the differences in contract for Putz/Street is inconsequential. I was only trying to be complete in my comparison.
The other reason contracts matter is because $14M players don't sit on the bench in favor of better players on the cheap.
Obviously, every team has financial limitations,
But if you are going to consider value per dollar from a business standpoint, how about also considering things like ticket sales, TV ratings, fan spending on overpriced beer and food, revenues, franchise value?
All of these matter to MLB businesses too. Not just marginal wins per dollar spent.
You guys are all forgetting..
...the power and awe created by Jose Vidro.
Utter dominance.
</snark>
i think vidro
posted a negative SLG% last year
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown
Putz vs Street
On the funny name scale, both score pretty well, but Putz gets the nod here.
On the anagram scale they couldn't be any more different. Huston Street has an awesomely awesome anagram, whereas J J Putz is quite possibly the most un-anagrammable name in all of major-league baseball.
On the Scrabble points scale, Putz outscores Street 23-15, and that's counting the fact that you have to use a blank for the second J. Give him a second bag of tiles and Putz goes up to a phenomenal 31.
This is the kind of analysis
that makes AN great!
And if you don't have a healthy Putz...
...you can always take a Viagra.
Save percentage is a retarded stat
even for closers, who enter varying numbers of games at varying levels of leads. A guy who comes in with a 3-run lead and serves up a grand slam deserves a lot more blame than a guy who comes in in the 8th inning of a one-run game and gives up a scratch run on a sac fly.
When you add in the fact that for a large part of last year, Street wasn't closing at all, and thus had no opportunity to get any saves at all (although he had plenty of opportunity to get blown saves) it becomes an even worse comparison.
Agree, and add how poorly constructed
the definition of a blown save is in regards to set up men blowing "saves" by giving up a 7th or 8th inning run in a game they were never going to save. That's how excellent set-up men - who very occasionally let a lead get away but never pitch the 9th inning - get save percentages like 0% (0/6, where maybe even three of those six are the result of giving up a two-out single in the 8th and then watching the LOOGY come in to give up a game-tying double).
Ichiro's average is not empty.
It has never been empty. Getting on base is getting on base, regardless of whether it was a result of walks or hits. Getting on base as a result of walks is not better than getting on base as a result of hits. It's actually, in most cases, worse.
Batting Runs above average, which weights OBP correctly, includes SBs, Ichiro, from 2001, his first year in MLB:
30, 21, 13, 36, 14, 16, 27, total: 158.
Despite age, no real signs of imminent decline yet.
For comparison, Carlos Beltran, in the same period:
20, 14, 29, 12, 24, 2, 47, 30, total: 178.
Andruw Jones:
2, 30, 20, 12, 33, 29, (-6), total: 120
Torii Hunter:
(-3), 16, (-6), 4, 5, 7, 13, total: 36
Carlos Lee, to compare Ichiro with a slugging corner type, since Ichiro played corner prior to 2007:
1, 13, 11, 22, 12, 18, 10, 28, total: 115.
As for the money, like the contract that Johan Santana signed with the Mets, a significant part of Ichiro's contract is deferred.
$25M of that $90M contract is deferred, at a 5% interest rate. They only need to start paying some of that $25M the moment he retires.
Cots estimates the average annual value at $16.1M, over 5 years.
Consider that the inflation rate in MLB is consistently over 5%: 8-10 %.
That $25M / 5 now, is likely to be worth significantly less in terms of playing talent when Ichiro retires.
There is some disagreement about his D. UZR and ZR don't like him. RZR really likes him, plus minus likes him, but to a lesser extent than RZR. Assume that it is average
His offense the last 3 years has been 14,16, 27 runs above average.
Say a total of 50 runs above average over the next 5 years, which is not exactly an optimistic projection, given his record: It's less then half his value over the last 5 years.
If you believe that his defense is awful, 20 runs below average, which UZR believes, then no, definitely not worth the contract.
If you assume that his D is average, then overpay, a value of $51.2M, using Tango's salary chart, versus a contract of $80M.
If you assume that his D is pretty good, say 10 runs above average, then he is essentially being paid what he is worth: $78M.
To be "worth" his contract, he needs to be around 100 runs above average over the next 5 years, offense and defense.
Felix Hernandez was 21 in 2007. With a career ERA+ of 110 in 465 MLB IP. His DIPS stats, K / BB rate, GB rate, are also very good.
Fautino de los Santos, for comparison, also 21, with 122 professional IP, and only 24 in A+ and none higher.
Gio Gonzalez, 21 at AA.
Trevor Cahill, 19 at A.
Brett Anderson, 19 at A+.
Felix might not be a great pitcher yet, but it seems fanboyish to say that the A's stud pitching prospects are anywhere close to being comparable to Felix.
Non A's: Clay Buchholz, 22, 22 IP in MLB. Phil Hughes, 21, 72 MLB IP.
Felix is younger or at a comparable age as most top pitching prospects, and he is already an established, good MLB pitcher.
I agree with you about the rest.
so does that mean this current group hates Zito
too, since the opportunity to win multiple championships (oh...and the money helped too!) were the reasons he joined the GIANTS of all teams. Maybe he was high at the time?
At least Foulke joined a good team and isn't a liar.
Yes.
Yes, it does.
Fuck Zito.
maybe?
is there a question?
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown
Foulke
I really hope this isn't a precursor to a Huston Street or Alan Embree trade. I've never been very high on Keith Foulke. Hopefully this is just going to be a deal that involves us selling high at the trade deadline. Assuming, that is, that he actually pitches well.
I always loved Foulke - a guy who has
Blanton's fastball command and Pedro Martinez's changeup. When he was topping out at 93 MPH, he was awesome and when he was topping out at 90 MPH, he was great. If he's topping out at 86-87 MPH, however...Not sure.
It does not matter
how hard you throw the fastball. The only thing that matters is location, location, location. When Foulke was on, his location was top 3 in the majors.
Agree to a point - it matters
how early hitters have to commit to what looks like a fastball. If Foulke threw 100 MPH with his fastball command and with his changeup, he'd be unhittable, and if he threw 70 MPH with his fastball command and with his changeup he'd be ineffective. 93 MPH, 90 MPH, and 85 MPH do make a difference for a Keith Foulke - just not as much as they do for a Chad Gaudin.
Foulke is still full of quotes
take this for example, from the A's website:
"It came to who made the best offer, and would give me the best chance to succeed early in the season," he said. "Oakland has succeeded with, probably, less talent. That's their benchmark; it's how they do things. It's a great place to play."
Forst also says that Foulke topped out at 85 mph
So is he saying
that because he has less talent, he's a good fit with the A's? Because I can't really disagree with any of that...
If 85 MPH was OUR people's spin on it...
Eek.
Well, let's wait and see
Paul Byrd has been serving up batting-practice fastballs for the last 10 years or so.
... and that's *with* the steroids!
(Yes, I know, pitchers don't 'roid to add mph but durability.)
and
muscle to have more mass behind the ball
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
