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Around SBN: Spencer Hall's Sports Meme Power Rankings

SS - Not Just Driving The A's Crazy

Nothing makes me appreciate Bobby Crosby any less than watching him swing at the same slider he’s been overswinging to try to hit since 2003 – the ball may as well be a football and the pitcher may as well be Lucy Van Pelt. At the same time, though, nothing makes me appreciate Crosby any more than a glance through the cavalcade of would-be SS out there. Believe me I know, because I comb the reports on minor league shortstops, furiously, every time Crosby takes a swing. You sure don’t find a lot of projected Cal Ripken Jrs., A-Rods, Jeters, and Omar Vizquels. Here’s what you see:

When you come across what looks like a really solid prospect – Jed Lowrie (Red Sox), Carlos Triunfel (Mariners), Mike Moustakas (Royals), Josh Rodriguez (Indians) – just as you’re getting excited, you get to the end of the scouting report: “…will probably end up at third base due to his lack of range.” “…will probably end up at second base due to his weak arm.” “…will probably end up in LF due to his third nipple.” In other words: “Right player, wrong position.”

Or you’ll find a slick fielding SS with all the defensive tools but a questionable bat – like Ivan DeJesus (Dodgers), or Elvis Andrus (Rangers), or Hector Gomez (Rockies) – and you’ll realize that this is precisely what (a healthy) Crosby already offers. Sure, it’s more aggravating to see someone with the tools to hit well hit .230 instead than it is to watch a scrappy, gritty, overachiever who should be hitting .190 courageously and heroically find a way to hit .230, but…It’s 23 hits in 100 tries no matter how you slice it.

Jose Reyes and Troy Tulowitski standout as exceptions in a pool that has produced few great major league shortstops, and just as few great shortstop prospects, since we were spoiled by the embarrassment of riches that cascaded down on us a decade ago. There’s a lot of Carlos Guillen and a lot of Julio Lugo, but a guy who can play defense like a SS – not like a guy you need to move away from SS – and can be an offensive plus, not a liability? Just not a lot already out there, and perhaps even less on the horizon.

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more cavalcades?

Crosby is like your tonsils....he is just there and nobody knows why or what he does exactly. Everytime he flares up we want him removed.

"Doesn't play well with the other children." Ms. Darias, principal, Broad Ave School

by since72 on Feb 26, 2008 8:38 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Are you implying

that Crosby is the appendix of the intestinal tract that is the A's system? And if so, who's the colon (since Bartolo's on the Angels)?

[ a.k.a. mkt a.k.a. whiny douchebag ]

"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL

by oblique on Feb 26, 2008 9:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Whoops...

I'm clearly behind the times. Thanks for the update!

[ a.k.a. mkt a.k.a. whiny douchebag ]

"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL

by oblique on Feb 26, 2008 1:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Is it possible...

that as we enter a new, "chemical free era" that the days of the slight-in-stature, slick fielding, no stick glovemen of yore are making a return to the game?

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 8:51 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I sure hope so.

That would make Gregorio Petit a whole lot more valuable to us!

by mikev on Feb 26, 2008 9:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Mark Belanger, thy name is Gregorio!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Feb 26, 2008 9:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Do you believe that

athletes who are slight in stature do not and have not chemically enhanced themselves?

Why? When a large amount of evidence from many sports indicates that speed and endurance athletes use chemical enhancements as much as strength and power athletes?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 9:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I haven't heard anything about an EPO epidemic

in baseball...

In any event, that's not what he was arguing. Alox said, paraphrasing, "if steroids are effectively eliminated, small players will do better." This seems likely, given that "small player skills" (speed, bunting, fielding) are more effective relative to "large player skills" in a lower HR, possibly lower run-scoring environment.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 9:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

would they be, though?

I'm not sure that speed and bunting would be more effective relative to "large player skills" in a lower HR, possibly lower run-scoring environment.

I'm not 100% arguing that they wouldn't be -- but that I have some reservations about the assumption that they would.

If SLG and runs decrease roughly evenly across the board, wouldn't that therefore increase the marginal value of every extra-base hit? And if each discrete HR and 2B is more valuable, wouldn't that actually increase the value of the players that can still aggregate those hits dependably?

Likewise, if each run becomes more valuable, then wouldn't giving away outs by increasing SB attempts (even judiciously) be even more costly?

Now, granted, there's sure to be a discrepancy between sabermetric valuation schemes and market valuation schemes -- i..e, if there's a gaggle of GMs who start overvaluing the Roger Metzgers of the world -- and a smart GM could exploit it.

And/or I could be all wet with my assumptions.

Someone is wrong on the Internet. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Feb 26, 2008 10:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not 100% sure about this either

but here's my take.

If SLG and runs decrease roughly evenly across the board, wouldn't that therefore increase the marginal value of every extra-base hit? And if each discrete HR and 2B is more valuable, wouldn't that actually increase the value of the players that can still aggregate those hits dependably?

I don't doubt that players who could still hit homers and doubles without juicing would be more valuable in an environment where power was a rarer tool. But I don't think that the marginal value of a HR or a 2B would necessarily go up. HRs have some diminishing marginal value (4 HRs in a row isn't any better than 3 singles and a HR) in large quantities, but not much. 2Bs may not have any diminishing marginal value in large quantities, because someone still has to knock the runner in from second.

In other words, roidless Griffey might be worth more than roided Griffey-- but it's because the supply of Griffeys has gone down, not because the demand for Griffeys has gone up.

Likewise, if each run becomes more valuable, then wouldn't giving away outs by increasing SB attempts (even judiciously) be even more costly?

I've actually seen the numbers on this one, and basically, the answer is no. In the 60s and early 70s (very low run-scoring) the break-even point for steals was about 63%. In today's game, the break-even point is about 75%. If Bobby Crosby had played in the 1960s, he would have been a green-light baserunner instead of a situational one.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 11:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So, EPO

is the only performance enhancing drug that helps speed athletes?

Different A(nabolic) A(ndrogenic) S(teroids) have differing effects. Some help build muscle. Some have more neural stimulating effects.

"Alox said, paraphrasing, "if steroids are effectively eliminated, small players will do better." This seems likely, given that "small player skills" (speed, bunting, fielding) are more effective relative to "large player skills" in a lower HR, possibly lower run-scoring environment."

And why do you believe that steroids only help players who rely on "large player skills"?

How many olympic sprinters over the years have used various performance enhancing substances.

Despite all the stereotypes, it is not only the bodybuilders, the weighlifters, the big guys, who use and benefit from steroids.

Also, that is NOT what Alox said. Why are you paraphrasing? Why not quote him directly, to wit, " Is it possible...that as we enter a new, "chemical free era" that the days of the slight-in-stature, slick fielding, no stick glovemen of yore are making a return to the game?"

Note the claims of chemical free era here.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 10:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The EPO line was a wisecrack.

I did not say that it was the only drug that speed/endurance athletes could use. I did not IMPLY that it was the only drug that speed/endurance athletes could use.

It's beyond obvious to anyone with even a slight knowledge of the recent steroid scandals that sprinters and distance athletes have taken steroids in the past and likely will continue to cheat by doing so.

I did not say that only large athletes take steroids. What I said was, to put this in as explicit of terms as possible, if everyone's use of steroids declines equally, it will possibly create a baseball environment in which small-player skills are more effective relative to large-player skills.

The relevant question here isn't "do steroids help large hitters more than small hitters," it's "do steroids help hitters more than pitchers?" And I don't think there's enough evidence to draw a firm conclusion on that front. But if the perception that they help hitters more than pitchers is correct, a decline in steroid use should cause a decline in run-scoring, which in turn would cause small-player skills to become more valuable in relative terms.

"Chemical free era"? You may have noticed that alox's post was phrased in the form of a question. Questions are generally interpreted by most readers as expressing possibilities, not making "claims."

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 11:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You have indeed correctly interpreted

my question. And you have expounded upon it more succinctly that I could ever hope to do.

There was a time that conventional wisdom stated that SS was primarily a defensive position. The players that usually excelled at this position were guys as small as 5'4". Then came the era were offensive production became paramount at every single position. Basically, I'm wondering if PED testing will re-introduce old philosophies? I am really curious to know if sabermetrics would support such a transition to an older style of play. What do you think?

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 11:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Quoting you

"There was a time that conventional wisdom stated that SS was primarily a defensive position. The players that usually excelled at this position were guys as small as 5'4". Then came the era were offensive production became paramount at every single position"

Emphasis mine.

So, maybe the issue is not PEDs? But rather, the philosophies of MLB teams?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 11:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly. I am merely

wondering if PED testing will drive the game back to older styles of play.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 11:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My point is that

unless conventional wisdom changes, why should the game return to older styles of play?

If teams continue to value offense over defense, they will select and train and pay players who fit that mold.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 12:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's simply a matter of adjustments.

As the conditions change, why wouldn't teams adjust their approach? Might what worked in the past suddenly become relevant again?

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 1:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I doubt we'll ever see a return to the Ray Oyler era

Fans just won't put up with it.

I think that decreased offense (if such a thing were to occur) would change the dynamic of middle infielders to some extent, but largely around the fringes. Petit looks better, Pena looks better, Betancourt looks better, and for that matter Crosby probably looks better.

But only slightly. Maybe John McDonald gets the job over David Eckstein. That kind of thing.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 1:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why are you assuming that

steroids do not help pitchers?

Yes, he phrased that as a question. I should not have said claim. He also did not say "steroids". Despite your paraphrasing.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 11:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My own personal opinion

is that if steroids indeed help any player in baseball, then pitchers would stand to benefit the most. The biggest advantage of roids is their recuperative powers. Pitching is by far the most strenuous position in ball.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 11:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The largest gains

from peds go to pitchers' wives.

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on Feb 26, 2008 12:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ask Rafael Palmeiro!

about his lil blue pill

No Harden and No Chavez make the A's go, something something...

by gdub171 on Feb 26, 2008 2:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Could be right

In which case my take on it would be that large players would actually increase their domination. In particular, the A's-style, high OBP, high-walk guys. In an environment where MORE runs are scored, it's critical to avoid outs as often as possible.

Taking this a step further, if HRs decline but ERAs go up, the players who stand to gain the most are guys like Jack Hannahan and Daric Barton who see a lot of pitches and draw walks despite average power.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 12:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I open it up to the AN audience

Someone please tell me if the following:

The relevant question here isn't "do steroids help large hitters more than small hitters," it's "do steroids help hitters more than pitchers?" And I don't think there's enough evidence to draw a firm conclusion on that front. [emphasis added] But if the perception that they help hitters more than pitchers is correct, a decline in steroid use should cause a decline in run-scoring, which in turn would cause small-player skills to become more valuable in relative terms.

constitutes "assuming that steroids do not help pitchers."

Seriously. Because one of us needs some major remedial reading comprehension lessons. And I don't think it's me.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 12:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So, let me rephrase

why are you assuming that steroids help hitters more than pitchers?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 12:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm reduced to repeatedly blockquoting myself

At least the blockquotes are getting smaller.

The relevant question here isn't "do steroids help large hitters more than small hitters," it's "do steroids help hitters more than pitchers?" And I don't think there's enough evidence to draw a firm conclusion on that front.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 12:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What I suspect ...

is that steroids help good players more than bad players -- and that there are more good hitters than good pitchers.

I suspect that steroids help, say, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, fairly equitably -- but that it helps both of them significantly more than Ryan Franklin or Tony Womack.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 26, 2008 12:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That certainly makes sense.

Roids will enhance a pre-existing skill set....but won't create that particular skill set.

On the other hand, a person has to be freakishly gifted to even make it to the MLB level. The natural skill that separates a Bonds from a Womack is razor thin.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 12:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The natural skill

may be close to unmeasurable, but at this level, a small amount is highly significant.

Kind of like your body temperature. On an absolute (Rankine, add 460 to Fahrenheit ) temperature scale, the diff between 98.6 and 110 degrees F is 2%. But that is the difference for humans between normal (558.6), and dead (570).

"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer

by One won lost won on Feb 26, 2008 7:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

WE'RE ALL GONNA GET 2% WARMER!!!

Someone is wrong on the Internet. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Feb 26, 2008 8:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why?

Not all AAS are equal. There are a whole variety of them, with varying effects, varying side effects, varying effectiveness, etc.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 12:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There's what alox said, which is my primary point ...

but to expand on what you said, the best players will have the resources to ensure that they can get the best steroids -- they can pay any price for the substances themselves and the advice to ensure they get the right ones.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 26, 2008 1:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

True

But, since the best players have the best resources to acquire the best, the best steroid advisors, the best steroids, they will benefit more from an environment with rigourous testing.

In a lax environment, what matters most is ease of acquisition, effectiveness and safety. Undetectability does not matter as much.

In a strict environment, undetectability matters much more. Using becomes much more difficult, intellectually A user cannot simply use any steroid. A user ends up needing either a knowledgeable AND trustable advisor, or to be knowledgeable about steroids himself.

The more difficult to detect steroids, Anadrol to use an example, also tend to be the more dangerous ones, thus requiring more knowledge and care.

The ones that are easily detectable, like Nandrolone Decanoate, are also safer to use, requiring less care.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 1:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The big money

guys will find a way to get the roids...it's always about the money .

by IM4Oakgal on Feb 26, 2008 1:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm speaking retrospectively ...

not making projections on how testing will change the future.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 26, 2008 1:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I would argue that retrospectively

it would not have favoured the rich players as much.

Availability and detectability were not issues. Anyone who knew how to follow simple instructions could have used.

No one needed to be an amateur chemist, or to have a serious background / interest in biochem to use, on his ownself, without very knowledgeable advisors.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 2:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Proper use is very important ...

in order to use the proper cocktail to maintain the athleticism and flexibility that are essential to performance.

Using steroids wrong will help far more than they hurt -- just ask Rubien Sierra ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 26, 2008 2:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Athleticism and flexibility have more to

do with training than with steroid cocktail use.

If an athlete is dumb enough to focus too much on beach muscles, on his t(its) and a(rms) no amount of proper cocktail use will help his flexibility and atheticism.

If an athlete is dumb enough to spend all or most of his time working out on machines, no amount of proper cocktail use will save his dumb ass.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 2:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Anyway ... I think it's true, you think it's not ...

we have no way of determining who is right ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 26, 2008 2:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We could actually refer to some sports science

texts, that explain training concepts, and why proper training is essential.

I suggest, Science and Practice of Strength Training, by Zatsiorsky, and Supertraining, by Mel C Siff.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 10:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously proper training is essential ...

the question is how difficult and important it is to use steroids "properly" in order to get optimal results.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 26, 2008 10:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

yup, it's true

Brainless Automaton #439

by rubin sierra on Feb 27, 2008 1:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So, what then is your point?

This is your paraphrase of Alox "Alox said, paraphrasing, "if steroids are effectively eliminated, small players will do better." This seems likely, given that "small player skills" (speed, bunting, fielding) are more effective relative to "large player skills" in a lower HR, possibly lower run-scoring environment."

So, you are arguing that the elimination of steroids would result in small player skills being more effective, yes?

Why?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 12:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not definitively arguing anything here

I'm outlining scenarios. I happen to incline toward the belief that steroids help hitters more than pitchers, based on the overall increase in run scoring during the steroid era, the generally pro-power effects of the kinds of steroids that players have been discovered to have been using, and the fact that pitcher performance, unlike hitter performance, does not appear to have been enhanced in recent years. I haven't seen an epidemic of articles, even from statheads, about how awesome today's pitchers are at striking hitters out, for instance.

However, I'm sensible enough to realize that there are other issues in play here (small parks, juiced baseballs, pitcher recovery rates, and so on) which is why I say there's no definitive evidence.

The real point of my argument is that IF HRs go down and run scoring goes down, "smallball" players will become more valuable, while IF HRs go down but run scoring goes up (because the pitchers are off the roids too), "batting eye" players will become more valuable.

Think of it in terms of a trio of current Angels, Figgins, Willits and Vlad. Right now Vlad is relatively most valuable. If both HRs and runs go down, Figgins will become relatively more valuable. If HRs go down but runs go up, Willits will become relatively more valuable.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 1:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You just blockquote all the time

To make yourself feel more important, don't lie.

"I Will Not Relent, I Am Driven"... Clutch
Bring Back The Bash!!!

by Shippee33 on Feb 26, 2008 6:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You've got me figured out.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 10:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lower run-scoring environment

I think you've framed the question well, Paul. What I wonder is, even if decreased steroid use does yield a lower run-scoring environment, would that environment be allowed to persist?

There are a lot of ways to tweak the balance of hitter-vs-pitcher through rules adjustments. No, I don't think they're going to change the distance to the plate, but they can adjust the definition of the strike zone, be more strict about the pitcher's foot on the rubber, tighten up the specifications for allowable bats, etc.

There is a pitcher-vs-hitter equilibrium that makes for an ideal game, and the rules have evolved to find it. If other factors make the game evolve too far away from that ideal, rules adjustments are available to re-establish it.

There are many here who know baseball history a lot better than I do, but my understanding is that historically the league has indeed tweaked its rules from time to time for that purpose.

If we have been in a pro-hitter environment lately, it means that those who maintain the rules have at least approved such an environment, if not outright encouraged it. If changes in steroid use were to alter that environment, would they approve the change, or would the rules be adjusted to compensate?

I think the evidence suggests that, for better or for worse, the league likes the higher run-scoring environment, and I think they'd keep it that way, regardless of what happens with steroid use.

formerly known as mdl

by iglew on Feb 26, 2008 2:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist

but in the long run, I think you're right-- whether it be shrinking (or my preferred solution, shifting upward) the strike zone, changing the composition of the baseballs, or moving the fences in, baseball will tend to recreate the high-scoring environment because it's what the fans want. Other leagues have done the same (the NHL rule changes, the NFL rules on pass interference, and so on).

However, if there's a medium-term profit to be reaped by exploiting players whose value is temporarily higher, the smart GM will attack it (while not overinvesting into it so that he can change directions again once scoring goes back up).

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 2:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it's a conspiracy theory

it's just normal business that you adjust your methods in order to produce the best possible product -- the product being an entertaining sport.

formerly known as mdl

by iglew on Feb 26, 2008 5:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, of course I don't.

But in the modern *era, not many guys of slight stature are to be found in the game anymore. Basically, I'm wondering if the small middle infielder with no power might be making a comeback. In todays game, Phil Rizzutto may not have been able to even play, much less make the HOF. I'm wondering if if the "rules" are changing, and if they are, can a smart GM exploit the new realities?

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 11:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Phil Rizzuto had a career OPS+

of 93. A career OPS of 706, OBP 351. A 351 OBP out of the SS is very damn valuable. Even today. Just look at BoCro's numbers: career OBP 310.

Unless his D was horrible, Rizzuto would have no problems getting a job today. Not when the likes of BoCro, Ryan Theriot, TPJ are starting SS.

Not when even MPV Jimmy Rollins has career OBP of only 331.

And even if his D was horrible, he would still get a job, ala Brendan Harris, as a stopgap offensive platoon SS.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 12:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't doubt that he was/would be a valuable player.

But he was a very small man, even for the era he played in. Would he have even been scouted in todays environment would have been a better question.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 12:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But that really is an issue

of a team's philosophy.

If the team is stubbornly in love with a particular stereotype of a player, for example, the idiotic idea of a speedy player has a leadoff hitter, no matter how bad his OBP, that has nothing to do with PERFORMANCE enhancing substaces.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 12:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, I had no intention of bringing up

the benefits/drawbacks of PED's. I was reflecting on baseball conventional wisdom of the forties, fifties, sixties, and seventies. Most middle infielders were scouted and signed for their defensive skills, with their offensive production an after thought. This line of reasoning existed through out all of baseball. A ss hitting .230 was perfectly acceptable.

I am wondering if their won't be a subtle shift back to this philosophy over the next few years as a result of extensive PED testing. Putting aside the perceived benefits of PED's, what do you think? Will the light hitting ss who can flash leather be making a comeback?

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 12:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well alox

I do think so. That's the part about PEDS that has always bothered me ...not the records being broken by juiced players. It's the change in the game...turning the game into a bigman weight-lifters hitting competition and causing the finesse and nuance of the game to be less valuable.

by IM4Oakgal on Feb 26, 2008 1:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I dunno

Depends on how teams will evaluate D going forward.

Adam Everett fits the stereotype of a awful hitting, but phenomenal D SS perfectly. He is struggling to get a job in MLB, just signed a $2.8M / 1 contract with the Twins. Before this year, he earned the same amount in 2007, $1.9M in 2006, and minimum wage before that.

In contrast, Mike Young, awful D, overrated hitter in an extreme hitter's park, is a star, signed to a $80M / 5 contract, and bitching about not being on a winning team.

Mark Ellis, phenomenal D at 2b, is one of the most underrated players in MLB. Has yet to make an AS team.

Pedro Feliz, phenomenal D at 3b, is one of the most undderated players in MLB, often deride as one of the worst players in MLB.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 1:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is precisely what I was wondering.

We are only a couple of years into the post steroid era (assuming such a statement has validity). Adjustments are just now starting to be made. I am curious to know how the trends are shaking out early on. Would sabermetrics advocate a return to old philosophies concerning the correlation between offense and traditional defensive positions?

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 1:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Incorrect.

We are not a few years into the post steroid era.

by IM4Oakgal on Feb 26, 2008 1:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps...

"alleged post steroid era"?

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 1:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay then...perhaps

"alleged post steroid era", followed by laughter?

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 1:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sabermetrics advocates buying slightly more defense

(and basestealing, bunting and speed) relative to offense in an environment in which runs are harder to come by.

But only assuming a rational market for player purchases. Since the market is eminently irrational... any market tendencies in this direction will probably be drowned in the white noise of idiocy for years to come.

One point I would make is that this applies across the board (not just to SS and 2B)-- Doug Mientkiewicz's value would go up in a lower run-scoring environment as well.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 1:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I dunno

I do not really see any differences.

Teams that have certain biases, ie the WS and speedy guys, continue to have those biases: Jerry Owens, Ned Colleti and speedy guys: Juan Pierre. Even though Juan Pierre is not a good defensive player.

OTOH, Endy Chavez, great defensive player, a better defensive CF than Carlos Beltran, who is damn good, for one, got signed to a $3.85M / 2 contract. I'm not sure how ANers would regard that deal, but Christina Kahrl, for one, did not sound too enthusiastic about him, saying "It's a more interesting question to wonder if somebody else might not get carried away and see Chavez as the next big thing; if the Mets made a deal in light of their adding the similarly useful Angel Pagan, and dealt Chavez before he just became the latest unhappy ending to Timo Time!, that would be entirely understandable."

Guys like Everett, Feliz, Endy Chavez, all great D players, continue to be grossly underrated.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 2:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you!

Both you and PT. This is what I was looking for. It will be interesting to see how the "market" plays out for the next few years. A lot of advantages to be had in inefficiencies and shifting demographics!

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 3:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What's really sad

is that Crosby doesn't even have to be a good hitter to be a valuable player. He IS a good defender, at least when he's fully healthy (his numbers from last year are influenced by his awful April when he was still mincing around trying to protect his back). He just has to not be a FREAKING TERRIBLE hitter. Which is what he's been for two straight seasons.

Jesus, BoCro, a .700 OPS is all we ask. That would make you a league-average shortstop.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 9:25 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Good point - some health and some

basic non-suckitude is all we ask.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Feb 26, 2008 9:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Mediocrity,

Come on Bobby, it's not so hard to achieve! You can do it!

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 9:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The way I see it...

...if Crosby is only going to contribute defense, he should be traded to make way for Petit, who is a FAR better defender, and might actually develop into a hitter along the way (lord knows, he's capable).

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Feb 26, 2008 10:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Petit isn't really an option before 2009

His bat is clearly still in the "developmental" stage.

Might as well give Crosby time to try to rebuild his trade value before flipping him.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 11:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

you learn something new every day. I never knew what Lucy's last name was until now. Thanks, Nico, it's no wonder that you are involved in education :-)

by Tyler Bleszinski on Feb 26, 2008 9:33 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I knew it,

but I have no idea why I knew it... and I always find that phenomenon disturbing.

Anyone worth hurting is worth hurting well.

by Poppy on Feb 26, 2008 11:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I sort of knew it

I have known for years that Linus was a Van Pelt, and that Lucy was his sister.

but it was only the past year or two, watching it with the kids, that I put it together.

Winner of the 2008 "find grover a new sig" contest.

by 5Aces on Feb 26, 2008 12:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

but did Nico know that Snoopy played SS?

According to Wiki:

"Outside of his fantasy life he is the shortstop for Charlie Brown's Little League team (and the best player, nearly passing Babe Ruth on the career home run list)."

No records of his lifetime OBP or fielding percentage could be found.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Feb 26, 2008 12:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If you don't know Lucy's last name

then you can't fully appreciate my all-time favorite baseball limerick:

Beane's outfield was so bad he felt he
Should make it less Lucy Van Pelty,
While JP's poor mound
Was too Charlie Browned:
And thus was born Lilly-for-Kielty.

(You also have to know that Lucy played outfield, I guess. Remember the ball bouncing off her head.)

formerly known as mdl

by iglew on Feb 26, 2008 2:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hu Chin Lung is a SS

prospect who reportedly plays great D and whose hitting took a step forward last year: 888 OPS in AA, 842 OPS in AAA. League average in the PCL was 783. A SS with great D who hits above league average is pretty damn good. Will be 24.

Asdrubal Cabrera, 22, by all accounts is a very good defensive SS, and his minor league numbers are depressed by the Mariners rushing him crazily. In 2007, an 839 OPS in AA in the Eastern league, relative to a league averge of 737. Also, a 101 OPS+ in MLB, in 186 PA.

Yunel Escobar of the Braves, 25 years old, by all accounts, plays very good D. He had a sensational MLB debut in 2007, 119 OPS+ in 355 PA; granted he is unlikely to sustain that, he has no power, but he has good contact skills: 295 BA in the minors, good OBP skills: 368 OBP in the minors.

As for existing MLB players:

Khalil Greene is a fine SS: plays pretty good D, around BoCro's level, is the same age, and is a pretty good offensive player for a SS, around 1-4 runs above an MLB hitter per season over his career, per EQA or Batting Runs;unlike BoCro, he's lived up to expectations. Grossly underrated due to playing in a pitcher's park his whole career.

JJ Hardy, who is 24, made the all star team in 2007.Offensively, he was pretty good for a SS in 2007, around a league average MLB hitter, regardless of whether you use Bpro's stats, OPS+, Batting Runs. Granted, that was the best year of his career, but he has been always young for his levels. Defensively, the numbers are somewhat contradictory, some good, some mediocre.

Yuniesky Betancourt is an interesting SS. Mariners fans swear that his D is great, and he does look great, but his defensive numbers are unimpressive. Offensively, he has progressively improved, to the point where he managed a 93 OPS+ last year, at age 25.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 10:22 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

On Carbrera

He killed Vancouver in short season ball back in 2004, and was clearly headed for big places being as he was 18 at the time.

But Seattle are the anti-San Fran - they just keep shoving their kids up levels until they struggle with the Mendoza Line, while the Giants won't push a guy up unless he's pushing the Ted Williams line.

If Cabrera was given the sort of time Gregorio Petit has had to properly develop, he'd be nasty.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Feb 26, 2008 10:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Forgot Reid Brignac, 22

He has hit above league average, all through the minors, despite being young for his levels. While playing SS. According to Goldstein, his D is acceptable.

I disagree that there is not a lot already out there, and perhaps even less on the horizon.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 11:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Problem with that list

None of them there SS play for the Athletics' organization.

Spring Training has started andBeane has traded Kotsay, Swisher and Haren... yet the best SS in the organization are the same guys we had prior to trading anybody.

Oh joy.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 26, 2008 12:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Love the sig line!

"Don't turn the page!"

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Feb 26, 2008 12:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

But credit to 5Aces for coming up with it.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 26, 2008 12:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We need more contests.

grover may furnish all of the prizes.

by IM4Oakgal on Feb 26, 2008 1:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Doubtful

I work for the federal government and I'm no longer a ray of fucking sunshine.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 26, 2008 1:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah ...

You're a fucking monster!

by IM4Oakgal on Feb 26, 2008 1:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

grr

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 26, 2008 1:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That is a problem for the A's

Not the Dodgers, Rays, Braves, Indians, Padres, Brewers, Mariners.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 12:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Umm

Isn't that what I said?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 26, 2008 1:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I'm responding to Nico's

post, where he said "but a guy who can play defense like a SS – not like a guy you need to move away from SS – and can be an offensive plus, not a liability? Just not a lot already out there, and perhaps even less on the horizon."

I disagree with him. That is why I posted that list of young SS.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 1:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Certainly some of the players you mention

will be good (some will disappoint), rfloh, and I would say Reid Brignac currently looks the most exciting as far as being the full offense/defense package. But even the guys you mention come either with defensive question marks, offensive question marks, or ages that suggest they are unlikely to emerge as Tejada, Ripkin, A-Rod, Jeter level "elite" players.

My point was that there was a stunning era of shortstops which spoiled us for a while - but that in fact many teams are now running with major league shortstops they'd really like to upgrade, and with prospects that have some upside but little certainty of fulfilling great promise as a complete player.

In short, as you look at at the list of major league shortstops there are a lot of so-so guys holding the position warm, and as you look at minor league prospect lists, SS is among the hardest positions to find a seemingly "sure thing".

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Feb 26, 2008 5:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yunel Escobar is 25?

Really?

Hm. The decision to bump him ahead of Brent Lillibridge on the depth chart makes a lot less sense to me if that's true. On the other hand, the fact that the Braves haven't dealt Lillibridge yet suddenly makes a lot MORE sense.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 4:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

25 in 2008.

Lillibridge would be 24 in 2008.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 10:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Would be?

Did he die over the offseason?

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 10:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Just have to mention that...

I bet I am the only one on this site who has a Yunel Escobar autographed ball. We got it when we went to Atlanta last year and watched the Braves and DBacks. It was the game where Micah Owings went 4 for 5 with two homeruns. Really something to see. That's all.

by IM4Oakgal on Feb 27, 2008 12:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hope for Donnie Murphy

Crosby's history of injuries, Murphy has some hope.

It's never easy with the Oakland A'S.

by pachydermOAFC on Feb 26, 2008 10:32 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Tejada?

What about Tejada? I know he's on the back end here and has some possible clouds with the steriods of late, but dang could he play SS!

He and Chavvy were the black hole that sucked up every hard hit ball to the left side of the infield. He produced at the plate and had some pretty darn good power numbers.

Back to Crosby, I think I'd take defense from him and hope he stays healthy enough to play a full season. I think we've got some other guys at the plate who can bat and Crosby can be the New Kendall.

It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.

by ru155 on Feb 26, 2008 11:06 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Hm

I wonder if that's long enough to provoke sack-dancing over at McCovey Chronicles about the possibility of his option not vesting.

I'm going to guess "yes."

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 1:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good call

Here's the first comment in the Omar diary:

Re: Omar Out 4-5 Weeks With Knee Surgery

I like Omar, but anything that reduces the chance of his vesting option for 09 is probably a very good thing.

by mxmob33 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:23:35 PM EDT

"Evidently, a large number of people said, 'We really need more vermin at the ballpark, Artie.'" - Nick, 10/7/07

by doctorK on Feb 26, 2008 1:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The off-season can play tricks

on my mind. I have entertained the thought that maybe this year Crosby will learn a little pateince at the plate. Yeah it was some long off-season.

by IM4Oakgal on Feb 26, 2008 1:18 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The Idea That Came To Dinner?

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 1:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

carlos guillen

did get moved off of shortstop though

President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Feb 26, 2008 2:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The problem

Is that Bobby Crosby isn't a great defensive player, either. I don't think he's any better than average.

If you're going to have a shortstop you can't hit, you want Adam Everett. He's one of the best defensive shortstops, possibly ever, and he more than makes up for his useless bat with his glove. Crosby doesn't.

I don't know why I get all worked up over him. He'll be hurt within a month or two anyway and then a better player can take over the position.

by thejd44 on Feb 26, 2008 5:48 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I don't really agree with that, thejd44 -

I think Crosby is a clear cut below the gold glove contenders but I think he's better than average. The metrics folks can weigh in, though, more accurately on this - I will (believe it or not) defer to the numbers on this one.

Thing is, thejd44, Crosby's backups had/have precisely the problem I write about today - Donnie Murphy might rake against LHP but he hasn't proven anything against RHP and while his arm is good, his defensive range at SS is mediocre. Scutaro was really a 2Bman and had a Crosby-like OBP.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Feb 26, 2008 6:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Very good glove, slightly below average range

according to RZR, OOZ

His RZR would have been the best in the AL if he qualified (though 5 NLers beat him out). His OOZ was middle of the pack but was much better than the previous two years, which, given the small sizes inherent to the stat would indicate that he's probably not even that good.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 26, 2008 7:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I would have expected his OOZ to be AMPLE

Someone is wrong on the Internet. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Feb 26, 2008 8:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In some ways, it's a little hard to know

because his play has been in such spurts - my recollection is that when he played the most without interruption, his range and glove were solid (throwing a little less so, maybe) - but when in recovering/returning mode and not able to get in a flow, defense was more shaky.

I can't believe I'm defending Bobby Crosby - maybe there IS hope for peace in the Middle East!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Feb 26, 2008 8:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Something I'm now wondering

Does defensive production require the playing time consistency that offensive production seems to? In other words, it seems that every hitter is better with consistent playing time, and on-and-off injuries would hurt that production (not to mention the injury itself). But is this really true for defense? Without any numbers to back this up, it seems like as a major leaguer if you can field a ground ball, you can field a ground ball. Playing more wouldn't make you better except in the case of learning a position. I think I reject the idea that Crosby would be even better defensively if he could just stay on the field, unless the argument is that he was worse than normal because the injury affected him in the way it apparently affected Chavez.

by thejd44 on Feb 26, 2008 8:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Have you ever fielded a hard hit ground ball?

It's hard.

As a hitter, if you fail 70% of the time, you're a star.

As a shortstop, if you fail more than 3% of the time, you're a scrub.

When you're talking about being absolutely perfect, practice matters.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 26, 2008 9:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not only is fielding a ground ball hard,

but it requires a similar timing and flow to what hitting requires. In the case of fielding, it's footwork and the hand-eye coordination to gauge and position to field-and-throw fluidly - similar to what's needed for hitting, just slightly different body parts needing to be in similar "perfect rhythm and timing".

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Feb 26, 2008 10:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I haven't

When small, hard objects are struck in my direction, I have an irresistable and unsurprising urge to get out of the way.

It's kind of odd to think that most sports basically require the existence of evolutionary dead-ends to furnish their player base...

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 10:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

One time I was taking infield ...

a ball was hit sharply a step to my right. I stepped across to backhand it, lowered my glove to the ground and got hit square in the face, after the ball kicked up off a small rock.

The guy who hit the ball commended me for staying down on it.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 26, 2008 10:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i've had the same experience

so i moved to centerfield. i was bj upton before his time as a nine-year-old

President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Feb 26, 2008 11:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You would think this would make sense

but I can't track fly balls, either.

Really the only position I could hope to field with even vague competence is catcher, and there's just not that much need for a catcher in intramural slow-pitch softball.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 27, 2008 8:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well I can't play first base ...

craziest thing ... it's supposed to be the easiest position on the diamond ... and while I was a 3b by trade and could play a respectable SS, I couldn't play 1b to save my life. I was scared of the ball -- not being able to adjust my body to get into a good position to catch it completely screwed with my head ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 27, 2008 11:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I got a fractured cheekbone in high school playing 1B

D*******g playing 3B threw me a 130-foot hard slider.

That, and I'm a klutz.

Someone is wrong on the Internet. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Feb 27, 2008 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"He'll be hurt within a month or two anyway"

Oh, if only. If only.

Crosby's injuries have been flukes. The fact that he was hit on the hand a year after he had a back injury doesn't make him "injury prone" by definition. He was (lamentably) practically going for Iron Man status on the team when Speier busted his hand up.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Feb 26, 2008 10:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Umm

We did make it to the playoffs with SCUTARO playing SS. Bobby's backups are better than him.

by butler19 on Feb 27, 2008 12:55 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

'Course you can live with a weaker defender when he hits 292/395/444 during the two months he had the starting job.

Compare that 2 month line to Scoot's career line of 259/320/384.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 27, 2008 3:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

hope springs eternal

I used to be a crosby hater, but now I've had a change of heart. If(i know, I know) he stays healthy, Crosby is going to have a monster year. Since he's now a grizzled vet I predict he will step up and be the leader of the club the way Tejada was (and Chavez can't). He will finally learn to lay off the slider and begin to punish the pitchers that are slow to adjust. He will be the heart of the team, and the biggest surprise.
I mean really, we don't have any other options at this point.

by elephantman on Feb 27, 2008 10:14 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

And I thought my dreams about

Mira Sorvino and Jennifer Connelly were far-fetched!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 28, 2008 1:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, I'll bet at least of them could lay off the slider

In fact, they'd make a great platoon!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Feb 28, 2008 8:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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