Haren about to fall apart? A's kill pitchers?

by catfish hunter on Feb 25, 2008 9:42 PM PST Comment 21 comments

I hope this hasn't been posted already; kinda tough I think, to find this out in the new format (not a complaint as much as for me, it just is..)

I'd never been to this site before - think I stumbled on it from RotoAuthority, which I like reading, but here's the link to the articlecrazy

In it, he basically calls out Billy Beane and the A's for their handling of all their pitchers, essentially saying that they work the hell out of 'em, and then, toss 'em aside for draft picks to some other team.

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the link didn't show up

http://fantasyhurler.blogspot.com/search/label/Dan%20Haren

Mike "lego my" Gallego

by catfish hunter on Feb 25, 2008 9:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Interesting theory, but there's a problem

Here's the guys that are mentioned along with Haren:

Billy Koch - Frankly, he just wasn't that good and he was only in Oakland for 1 season.
Jason Isringhausen - If he was damaged goods, it was from when he was in the Mets system. Of course, the fact that he's been pitching for six years after leaving the A's and has still been a pretty friggin good reliever shoots holes into the theory.
Mark Mulder - Broken hip/leg from stepping in a hole in the mound pitching at Philly, wasn't it? Could it be the fault of the A's pitching staff/medical staff that he wasn't shut down and possibly changed his mechanics, leading to the shoulder issues and subsequent two surgeries.
Tim Hudson - Little guy who throws hard. Injury waiting to happen. That said, he's averaged over 200 IP in his 3 seasons since leaving Oakland.
Barry Zito - He's never missed a start.
Rich Harden - lolz.

Okay, so possibly Harden and Mulder were "broken" by the A's system. Hudson and Isringhausen have essentially shown no ill effects, and Koch wasn't with the team long enough to make a difference either way.

by mikev on Feb 25, 2008 10:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

The article is badly argued

but he's not arguing that the players ended up injured etc. He's arguing that they were "were used like rented mules during their non-free agent years, often cut loose by the A's, and either saw their careers ruined by injuries or watched their effectiveness drop dramatically".

That Zito has never missed a start, for example, does not disprove his point. For whatever reason, Zito is not the same pitcher that he was in his younger days.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 25, 2008 10:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Aren't they all "used like rented mules?"

Especially, if they're any good. And, well paid rented mules by most "working man" standards, even in their non-free agent years.

However, when you look at the pitchers of 30, 50 and 70 years ago, these guys lead pampered lives, by comparison.

Go A's!

by FoolshGame22 on Feb 25, 2008 11:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The issue isn't really how well the players

were paid or not. Or about "justice" and "fairness" for the players.

The issue is about the players value to a team after they have been "used like rented mules".

I'm not agreeing with the author, BTW. All he did was toss out the total pitches that Haren has thrown, without providing any context: he did not compare the number of pitches that Haren has thrown to the number of pitches that other top durable pitchers, Buerhle, Sabathia, for example, have thrown.

Buerhle and Sabathia were worked much harder than Haren, at similar ages.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Feb 26, 2008 5:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yea its called

Baseball has figured Zito out, and when the umpires are not calling his curve for strikes, he has thrown 120 pitches by the end of the 4th, and given up 6 runs....

"I Will Not Relent, I Am Driven"... Clutch
Bring Back The Bash!!!

by Shippee33 on Feb 26, 2008 6:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That's part of it, but Zito has also

lost some real velocity on his fastball, from hitting 89-90 regularly to hanging around 84-86 almost all the time. And he's not at the "lose 5 MPH on your fastball" age - so it's pretty reasonable to use him as a possible example of overuse (often 1st or 2nd in the league in pitches) leading to a dead arm. The rebuttal is: "You wouldn't lead the league in pitches if you'd actually be FITZ once in a while, instead of just talking about it!"

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Feb 26, 2008 8:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think he lost it ...

as much as the team convinced him he would be more successful if he threw more strikes and pitched to contact, rather than trying to strike everyone out. It worked for a while ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 26, 2008 8:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He lost a lot of it pretty suddenly in

the middle of '06, and his results plummeted. He kept saying stuff about how it was a mechanical problem, and claimed that he fixed it, but those mphs never came back....

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on Feb 27, 2008 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

exactly

I thought it would get some riled up for that same reason - the name that stuck out to me was Koch, who as you pointed out, wasn't aroundlong enough. I thought it was a bizarre article - hell, I'll pick him if he's available in the early rounds

Mike "lego my" Gallego

by catfish hunter on Feb 25, 2008 10:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

blah blah blah

Somebody's lame opinion. He obviously had to fill some space. next time he should try the space between his ears...because it is obviously empty.

"Doesn't play well with the other children." Ms. Darias, principal, Broad Ave School

by since72 on Feb 25, 2008 10:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I haven't made by draft list yet ...

but while his logic is thoroughly flawed -- it's not that the A's tend to break pitchers -- it's that pitchers tend to break -- I suspect his conclusion, that Haren will typically go in rounds 3 through 5, but belongs closer to round 7, is absolutely correct.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 25, 2008 11:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Yup,

Now look at the new top article on the link: Kazmir possibly hurt.

by SuperBean on Feb 26, 2008 11:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

"it's not that the A's tend to break pitchers -- it's that pitchers tend to break"

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Feb 25, 2008 11:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

considering

he has zero comments on either article I suspect he isn't very popular as well as being wrong.

A's all the way in 08 . . . oh never mind!

by micdog2001 on Feb 26, 2008 3:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Mulder, Hudson and Zito

were all damaged goods when they left.

They all pitched too many pressure cooked innings due inept offense and were all past done and on the trash heap (Huddy pitched OK but it's the NL)

Zito had one good year and was a liability

by TimTimTimbo on Feb 28, 2008 10:28 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Mulder, Hudson and Zito

Zito was a liability for the most part apart from his Cy Young season. Without looking I think he had one other good season but I remember too many gascan explosions with his 41 mph fasball and his lack of location. The Giants sure look stupid signing this AAA starter

by TimTimTimbo on Feb 28, 2008 10:33 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

in 6 of Zito's 8 seasons

he's posted an ERA under 3.9 with 4 under 3.5 and 2 under 2.8 -- pitching 200+ innings in every full year in Oakland.

Which one of those wasn't a good season?

The Giants are looking silly -- but Zito is hardly a "AAA" starter. In the worst season of his career, last year, Zito pitched 196-2/3 league average innings. He was overpaid for that but that's still a valuable player.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Feb 28, 2008 10:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs