How Free Agency Is Cheapening The "Team"
My problem with the Yankees' recent X-Mas shopping is that the team now favored to win the AL East in 2009 isn't really the Yankees; it's a bunch of guys the Yankees added because the team they had built wasn't that good.
Free agency can be a good thing. It gives a player who was drafted by a team he never wanted to play for a chance to have a say in where he plays, and where he lives, halfway into his career. But teams are supposed to build their team, their identity, through their farm system, using trades to fill holes or rebuild.
What free agency has done is to allow teams like the Yankees to artificially create a team they didn't build - to draft Philip Hughes and Ian Kennedy and start C.C. Sabathia and A.J. Burnett, to fix offensive deficiencies created by poor player development and poor trades by buying Mark Teixeira. Few teams can do this, so everyone else has to draft and trade well, while a few teams can buy expensive "instant surgery" while the rest of the league resorts to 3-year programs of "health development" because it can't afford pitchingectomies and hitting-transplants. It's almost like our health care system, which hardly gets high ratings from the average consumer.
If you believe this is a problem it's a difficult problem to solve because it's nigh impossible to find any solution which is good for "baseball" that also meets the approval of both owners and players. I have a lot of complaints and few answers. The only one I can think of that doesn't directly impact salaries is to limit how many FAs a team can sign; after all, they weren't your players, so why should you get to sign an unlimited number of players you didn't develop or trade for?
I don't honestly know what "the answer" is, but I know I think it's a problem. Your team is supposed to be YOUR TEAM, and if you don't like your team you are supposed to fix the problem by fixing YOUR DRAFTS or trading YOUR PLAYERS. You shouldn't just be able to go out and buy different players because you don't care for the ones you have. And that's essentially what the "Yankees" have done, quotation marks to emphasize that they're not really the Yankees. I think this unlimited access to as many free agents as you can attract and can afford is cheapening the concept of building a baseball team. Do you agree?
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Except a salary cap hurts the players, straight up
A “# of FAs” cap will hurt players some (less competition/bidding) and owners some (less ability to “quick fix” deeper problems), and will create SOME parity without just bailing weak teams out. Mostly, it keeps players with their teams more (you’d see less free agency and more extensions,) and emphasizes farm systems more, which I think is a good thing.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 11:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Prior to this FA shopping spree...
I had thought that there was something to the affect of a “#of FA” cap in place to prevent what is going to happen to the BlueJays. The big losers in this game are the Jays who will get a sandwich and a third rounder instead of the first rounder they should receive.
by dogdays on Dec 24, 2008 11:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I really dont care about a salary cap hurting the players...
they makes millions of dollars playing baseball. They should make less than what they are getting right now.
"With 16-year-old Dominican righty Michel Inoa in tow, Gio Gonzalez improving at Triple-A and lefty Brett Anderson carving up Double-Abatters along with Simmons and Trevor Cahill, Oakland’s pitching depthis officially the envy of baseball." - BaseballAmerica.com
by Syphon on Dec 24, 2008 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As should the owners
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 4:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
... both of which ends can be accomplished by pursuing the Monkeyball Plan
1. Only buy gray-market/scalped tickets
2. Only buy pirated merchandise, or kludge your own
3. Only eat food that you bring in to the park
3.a. FREE KRAUT!
I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Dec 24, 2008 4:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Plz to change 3.a. to point #1 kthxbye.
by mikev on Dec 24, 2008 5:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I may be on the Monkeyplan
I rarely pay for tickets, I never buy merchandise, I usually bring my own food. There’s no free kraut involved, but otherwise…
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 5:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
vee haff vays of mekking you eat kraut
I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Dec 24, 2008 5:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh I don't mind eating kraut
I just don’t have access to it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 5:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why we need it FREE AT THE COLISEUM.
by mikev on Dec 24, 2008 5:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and I can supply pirated merchandise.
arg, ya scallywags.
I see a deranged rabbit, on fire, cowering away from a vagina. I await the results of the Rorschaschererer. -Nico
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 24, 2008 11:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A salary cap doesn't fix anything
It makes for a mediocre league, it doesn’t keep ticket prices down.
Yeah, I actually can’t think of any way in which a cap can help a healthy league that’s making money.
by thejd44 on Dec 25, 2008 8:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
KLaw had a piece
that basically says a cap will only make more money for the owners… so pick your poison
by dogdays on Dec 26, 2008 9:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
100% agree
An excellent assessment of the current MLB trends regarding this free market frenzy…
"What do we do with Crosby? Well, in my neighborhood, trash goes out on Mondays." ~ Nico
by MMunoz33 on Dec 24, 2008 10:59 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry, but this is nonsense
How, exactly, is free agency any less natural, more artificial, or more arbitrary, than the various amateur and professional drafts, trades, waiver systems, etc.?
I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Dec 24, 2008 11:11 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
Yep
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 24, 2008 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I got your back on this one
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 24, 2008 3:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
too true
Perhaps all players just go into a lottery pool, and names are drawn to fill each club. Kind of like shuffling the deck, and getting a new set of cards dealt to each club, each season. Players have a collective bargaining agreement with a sum total of all salaries, and the players decide who gets how much money, by whatever formula the players themselves work out. Owners not invited.
Ballclubs simply contribute a set amount of money to the pool ($100 million each club?) If you find someone that was not a major league player the prior season, but want to include that player on your club, another set of rules kicks in, like $1million salary, no up or down. A dropped player from the previous season keeps his salary, playing or not. But his non-performance or other criteria would certainly diminish his salary for the next season.
Officially awaiting the 2009 season.
by One won lost won on Dec 24, 2008 10:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think what is clearly needed here
is a better distribution of revenues. Of course the Yankees deserve to be the top dog, they have the most fans and rake in the most money, but…there are 29 other teams, and half of every single game the Yankees play, is played by players on other teams. (Did that make sense?) Without those 29 other teams, there’s no competition, except perhaps some Cuban or Japanese teams.
Bill James suggested one time that if a team like the Yankees gets too big of an advantage, a team on the opposite end of the spectrum, let’s say the Royals, can make their voice heard by just not showing up for games in Yankee Stadium, making the Yankees lose millions.
"All your baserunner are belong to Greg Smith" ~ walk off bunt
by Philip Christy on Dec 24, 2008 11:13 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
i thought free agency was making the “team” more expensive?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Dec 24, 2008 11:34 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
MLB and MLBPA make too much money
MLB owners have little incentive to implement a salary cap. Without a cap they have better cost control over their league than the other three leagues, which are contractually obligated to spend a certain amount on players. That may sound inconceivable until you read this.
Take a look at this handy dandy table:

Then tell me how you determine which financial model is superior over the other.
Owners and players (once they hit six years of service time) make too much money. They won’t expand revenue sharing because its intent was to keep have-nots afloat, not to make them consistently competitive.They have the same pool to divide as the NFL but with less than half of the jobs. The answer is, then, to add more jobs. It’s not practical to add a bunch of expansion teams in this economic climate. It may be more sensible to expand 25-man rosters to 27, but that won’t affect the pool much since those additional players are likely rookies anyway.
One possible solution is the adoption of free agency exceptions such as the NFL’s franchise and transition tags. Those are temporary solutions that MLBPA simply won’t go for considering they’re getting a smaller piece of the pie relative to their peers in the other sports.
by vertig0 on Dec 24, 2008 11:39 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
The Oakland Raiders have the highest payroll in the NFL?
That is sad considering how bad they are.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
by micdog2001 on Dec 24, 2008 11:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
JaMarcus Russell
$33 million for 2008 is tied up in Russell’s rookie contract. Oh the joys of getting a #1 pick.
by vertig0 on Dec 24, 2008 11:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
wow, based on media coverage
i would have guessed NBA revenue was closer to baseball than to hockey…
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Dec 24, 2008 12:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Difference is national TV money
NBA pulls in nearly $1 billion in annual revenue from ESPN/ABC and TNT. NHL gets less than $100 million from NBC/Versus. Ticket prices are the same. Merchandise probably isn’t significantly higher for NBA.
MLB actually makes less than NBA in national TV revenue. They more than make it up with ticket sales and more lucrative local TV arrangements.
by vertig0 on Dec 24, 2008 12:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
quick question
in the NFL can’t you franchise the same player multiple years in a row?
(My whole point is based on this answer…)
by stranahanahan on Dec 24, 2008 1:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes you can
Two years tops I believe.
by vertig0 on Dec 24, 2008 2:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
see, adding that to MLB could potentially damage free agency altogether
because in the NFL, you have essentially 22 individual positions, each being valued pretty evenly and being generally expendable unless you have a real special player (I know this sounds flawed, I’m just trying to say what i mean quickly).
Anyway, you add the ability to franchise a player in MLB, then you start seeing some real odd numbers in contracts. For examply, let’s say a guy like Matt Holliday was to be franchised next year and the year after that by the A’s. Yeah, he gets good pay, but who’s to say he wouldn’t have gotten better pay if he was allowed to go into free agency. Then, he goes in FA as a 31 year old instead of a 29 year old.
I mean, MLB is run completely differently from the NFL, you would start to see a trend of the same types of players getting franchised, it would just set up some weird numbers, where you see the 2nd best players on a team getting the huge contracts, and the best guys having to stick out their franchise years and hope they’re still just as much of a commodity 2 years later.
It could work, but at this point for anything to be changed their would be a huge shakeup in the league and a potential for a couple of disaster years as things get into shape. Agreed?
by stranahanahan on Dec 24, 2008 2:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So the MLBPA would strike over it
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 2:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty colors
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 24, 2008 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This graph
I think really illustrates why I don’t have a problem with the Yankees being the Yankees.
Often times, it’s not the market, it’s the owner. Do the Yankees probably have more of a financial advantage? Sure, but I don’t think it’s nearly as big as its believed to be.
Look at the highest spending teams in those leagues – Oakland, Dallas, Denver. There’s no consistency in market there, but there is a consistent theme in terms of the owner – Guys with deep pockets (see: anybody with enough money to own a sports franchise) who are very publicly willing to take a loss because they want to win. Al Davis, George Steinbrenner, Mark Cuban.
If you have an owner willing to win at all costs, that’s your biggest advantage.
The Yankees have built in financial market advantages, but most importantly they have the Steinbrenner family which cares about the Yankees being the Yankees more than anything else. The Angels weren’t the “Yankees of the West” until Arte Moreno bought the team and decided he wanted to make them a winner. It’s a pretty simple formula – if you want to find the teams willing to spend the most, find the owners willing to lose the most.
It figures that there aren’t a lot of owners out there that want to operate at a loss, or close to it, and I don’t blame them, but that’s your “financial advantage” you see with the Yankees – a willingness to be financially reckless.
It has less to do with New York and more to do with the Steinbrenners being the Steinbrenners.
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on Dec 24, 2008 4:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Do either the Yankees or Angels operate at a loss?
What about after tax benefits?
And then what about after changes in franchise value?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 4:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There is absolutely no factual basis for this.
The Yankees bring in at least $200 million in annual revenue over and above the average team, and the gap is growing.
You may think you see a pattern among certain owners, but that doesn’t change the fact that the Yankees are spending out of their own team revenues, not out of the owners’ pockets.
by Jay on Dec 25, 2008 5:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I know absolutely nothing about the NFL
So, how is the NFL’s cap “hard” with the Raiders exceeding it by $36M (and the Chiefs falling short of the floor by $15M)?
I’m also immensely confused by the statement “Owners and players (once they hit six years of service time) make too much money”—who, pray tell, should be making money, aside from the people who own the means of production and the people who work for them?
I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Dec 24, 2008 5:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Pseudonymous bloggers.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Dec 24, 2008 7:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
can I have $6.5B?
I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Dec 24, 2008 8:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
you mean $6.5MMM
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
by flipgatey3 on Dec 25, 2008 1:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Accounting
What gets paid to employees, and what is listed in the books, are often two different things and not just in pro sports.
A salary cap is not really a means to limit payroll, it’s a means to limit largess in free agent signings.
My point about the owners and players making too much money is that the money pool is so large that it effectively limits competition for services among players and owners. In the NFL there are numerous players at several positions every year competing for dozens of jobs, whether they are special teamers or top flight cornerbacks. It is that competition that prevents marginal football players from getting long term guaranteed contracts. In baseball, the only downward pressure comes from smaller market teams not willing to expand payroll. Basketball’s even worse as the NBA has half the jobs of MLB. I have no problem with anyone making as much money as they can in the marketplace. However, if the market’s screwed up, it’s screwed up. It’s monopolistic competition at its finest.
And that’s just the labor situation. It moves to venues as well. If the Yanks did not have the benefit of the State of New York granting them $1 billion in tax free loans and PILOTs, they wouldn’t have nearly the amount of future revenue available to hand out to free agents. It could have meant getting only two of CC/Burnett/Teix, not all three. No California team will ever have that opportunity in the future.
by vertig0 on Dec 24, 2008 7:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm feeling at least a thesis here,
perhaps even a dissertation: “Who’s Zooming Who? (Mis)Representations of the Proletariat Among Millionaires and Billionaires in Professional Sports”
I see a deranged rabbit, on fire, cowering away from a vagina. I await the results of the Rorschaschererer. -Nico
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 24, 2008 11:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would expect any respectable cultural studies program to let that fly through without correcting the grammar
I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Dec 25, 2008 6:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's the System
Why should the Yankees & others be penalized for spending the most $? I have an intense dislike for them, but the system is set-up for them to win. An analogy I like to use & we can all relate to is the prominent high school that was the envy of wherever we were growing up. The upper middle class & rich kids in the good neighborhoods who always did well in sports & academics. If you lived in a one stoplight town, then you probably cannot relate. There was alot of envy & not playing on the old cliche; a level playing field.
As long as the majority of baseball team owners are making money, I do not think the system will change. If they put a competitive product on the field, they will call it good.
Bud Selig, Wolfe & company are not going to vote for a salary cap. And the players union will never agree to it. It is what it is.
Paddle Faster! I hear banjo music.
by alpine26 on Dec 24, 2008 11:41 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
For years I thought I grew up in a one-stoplight town
I was 22 before the Berkeley police set me straight.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 11:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure how much I agree with you
The teams winning the World Series aren’t doing the same thing as the Yankees. Hell, the Rays made it to the Series last year and the Yankees didn’t even make the playoffs. The left side of the yankees infield made more than the Rays entire team.
It’s disappointing to see a team spend money like this but where has it gotten them recently?
by dogdays on Dec 24, 2008 11:45 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Well they haven't played any games with Sabathia and Teixeira yet
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Are they that much improved from last years team?
They lost a 20 game winner and a 14 game winner from their 2008 rotation. Do you think that Sabathia or Burnett will do dramatically better than that? I don’t.
They lost 32 home runs at 1b/dh and picked up 33 home runs and a better glove at 1b. True, Teixeira is probably better all around than Giambi… but not enough to bridge the gap of the other team deficiencies.
I just don’t buy that they’ve improved that much over last years team (so far) by spending through the wazzou. A lot of action, but they haven’t responded to their biggest deficiencies, durability and bad defense.
The Rays modeled their team more like the A’s and made it to the World Series yet no one thinks that playing smart works out better than playing rich. The combined payrolls of both teams in the 2008 World Series were less than the Yankees yet everyone KNOWS that the Yankees will win it all.
by dogdays on Dec 26, 2008 10:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
it got them 13 consecutive playoff appearances until last season
by jaylikewise on Dec 24, 2008 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Up until 2000 they had teams that were assembled more like the Red Sox in which they weren’t overpaying people (at least in comparison to what their doing now) and they were building a team from within and they weren’t #1 in spending. They were winning the world series then, and they aren’t even making it now.
Since 2000 they’ve spent the most dollars every season and they’ve been ushered out of the playoffs each season. They aren’t buying any championships. They are buying scary looking teams that just don’t have enough to win it all.
by dogdays on Dec 26, 2008 9:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You Should Be Elected Baseball "Czar"
… to implement changes.
“Czar” being a better word than it’s derivative “Cesar” which might land you murdered by one of your family members in a short amount of time in their lust for power…Of course, Russian history had it’s own set of intrigue through the years as well. How’s that with starting off with a tangent.
Actually,the system as it is set up now won’t change unless… Baseball loses it’s antitrust exemption and can restructured along the lines of the NFL. The inherent problem lies with MLBPA and the owner’s mouthpiece in the Commisioner’s seat. Poor Judge Kennesaw Mountain Landis would never be elected Commisioner today because he had one fatal flaw…Integrity. Thus, nobody is around to challenge anything regarding he structure of baseball until the next strike,of course.
So, to paraphrase you,“too many complaints and not many solutions”… I agree that baseball is set up to reward those with buying and sustaining power which make the dynastic A’s of the 70’ s a relic of baseball histoire.
"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King
by Gerard on Dec 24, 2008 11:48 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
If you're just trying to restrict FA purchases
Turn the luxury tax into an ultra-soft cap. You can go over the “cap” in the same form/fashion as you can now, with the financial penalty. Make it so only non-minimum wagers who are currently on your roster (and only what the team itself is on the line for) are part of that “salary” calculation. Then make it so that you can take on as much salary you want via trade/waivers/re-signing BUT once you go over the “cap”, you’re no longer able to sign players via FA.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
by DMOAS on Dec 24, 2008 11:58 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
+100
"I think people in this state like BOTH teams," proclaims Nick Aliotti, the Ducks' defensive coordinator. "Except for our hard-core fans, I don't think most Duck fans would have been terribly upset to see Oregon State going to the Rose Bowl."
Another reason he needs to go.
by diehardoaklandfan22 on Dec 24, 2008 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
MLBPA would strike over that
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
MLB would have to concede something of value
in order to accomplish setting that up. But remember, the MLBPA was very much against even allowing the revenue sharing/luxury tax in the first place. Considering MLB wouldn’t be asking for any real salary cap at all, as long as MLB isn’t being too greedy (insert laugh here), I’d think they could come to terms on, say a small stake in TV revenue for instance.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
by DMOAS on Dec 24, 2008 3:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That might actually be worth a shot. Anything in terms of equity or revenue sharing would be.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What if they conceded a doubling of league minimum?
I’ve always thought that most players deserve to be paid more while some asshole, overpaid, useless veteran stars deserve less.
Or, the savings could be used to fund retirement for athletes or other programs to give back.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 25, 2008 6:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I couldn't agree more
The farm system too. Take 20% of A-Rod’s salary and he still has $20mil/year to live on. Spread the other $5mil around 150 minor league players in the Yankees’ system, and you end up with $33,333/year for the 90% of prospects who will never make it to the big leagues (and for the 10% who will).
Pay all your minor leaguers better and pay your league minimum players better, not your super-duper-stars. Take care of more people who need it more – it’s so obvious that baseball/society will never do it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 25, 2008 7:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, totally agreed.
Whenever I hear anyone throw around the bullshit blanket “baseball players get paid too much wah!” i just think of the thousands who had to deal with all of the twelve hour bus rides and career suicide to get a shot at being one of the people everyone complains about.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 25, 2008 7:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm thinking that even more than 20% of...
Take 20% of A-Rod’s salary and he still has $20mil/year to live on. Spread the other $5mil around 150 minor league players in the Yankees’ system, and you end up with $33,333/year for the 90% of prospects who will never make it to the big leagues (and for the 10% who will).
…Alex’s salary is already confiscated by the IRS and then later distributed toward programs that supposedly are supposed to benefit other people that happen not to be professional athletes attempting to live out their dreams and getting paid to do so. If ‘we’ really wish to take more from him — and of course he doesn’t really need it — he and others will probably just ask for some amount that nets him where he was in the first place. And then the owners will want to net the same as they did before. And then the fans will pay more to make it all happen.
by LowcountryJoe on Dec 25, 2008 7:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure more than 20% of A-Rod's salary is confiscated by the IRS,
and I’m even more certain that it is not distributed toward programs that benefit the people who need it!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 25, 2008 9:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Please stop attempting to turn this site into a political message board
You like free markets. Goody for you. There are plenty of places to rant on about that. AN is not one of them.
I find myself consistently having to stifle responses to your comments on the grounds that those responses would obviously violate the site’s injunction on political controversy. Which kind of implies that your comments are violating said injunction in the first place.
If you want to talk about political issues as they relate to baseball here, take a neutral tone. If it wouldn’t be appropriate for a Wikipedia article, it isn’t appropriate here. Not my rule, but if I’m going to follow it (and I am), I would, personally, appreciate it if others did too.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 26, 2008 8:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I really didn't expect this type of attitude
at an A’s blog. The A’s aren’t the most loyal team and have benefited from random free agents like Frank Thomas.
by greala on Dec 24, 2008 12:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
So that means our writings aren't just self-serving
They’re oriented around fairness and prudence whether it helps Oakland or not.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 12:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What?
Are you actually comparing Frank Thomas and his $500K 2006 salary to the FA signings the Yankees just made?
by gojohn10 on Dec 24, 2008 12:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention (he mentioned) that
the A’s didn’t make a bunch of other FA signings in 2006. I’m not saying teams should not be allowed to sign free agents or even pay a lot for one. But three players, $400million? My point is that’s not your team; that’s taking other people’s teams and taking short cuts.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're forgetting our
brilliant addition of Emil Brown this past season.
I see a deranged rabbit, on fire, cowering away from a vagina. I await the results of the Rorschaschererer. -Nico
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 24, 2008 11:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I was referring more to the idea of a team
than the specifics. When I think of this blog and community, I think of stats and looking at players as VORP more than anything. So it puzzles me why we should be angry at the Yankees for building a false team when we treat the A’s like a bunch of stocks.
by greala on Dec 24, 2008 12:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not all of us look at players as VORP!
(I look at Crosby as CRAP)
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 12:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, but there's at least a couple A's in it.
Especially the “replacement player” part.
by still bills kingdom on Dec 24, 2008 1:36 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
:(
What’s wrong with VORP you guys?
"To this day and dating back 25 years, before every game he plays, Henderson stands completely naked in front of a full length locker room mirror and says, "Ricky’s the best," for several minutes."
by VORP is too nerdy on Dec 25, 2008 11:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not angry at the Yankees for building a false team. I'm opposed to a system that
encourages them to do that.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 1:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
really now?
are we comparing oakland’s free agent activity to the yankees? thomas was 38 when we signed him the first time, and we gave him one year. far more often than not we build (and then fail to retain) our stars.
by jaylikewise on Dec 24, 2008 4:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i think its pretty clear
there is no good or right “answer”. i hate the yankees, i really do. but i love the david vs. goliath stories that come out of this. but i also think something needs to be changed
"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"
by travdog6 on Dec 24, 2008 12:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Why do you want to the A's to be perpetually at a structural disadvantage?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
not so much i want it
but i see no way around it, and i guess for me thats the best way of looking at it.
"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"
by travdog6 on Dec 24, 2008 2:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't give up hope!
We can make it work if we just work together!
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 2:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
the optimist in me
says that new school (minimalist moneyballing) managment styles were evolved and forged in this modern era… and have affected business as usual for most of the mid-market. the superior classes of management may not have been born under a more egalitarian system.
who knows?
by jaylikewise on Dec 24, 2008 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Thing That Pisses me Off About the Yankees...
is that when they decide at the last minute to give a major X-mas gift to their fans that no one else can give, all they have to do is call up Scott Boras, check what the last contract offer was and offer $10 million more than that…
Whereas, when I make the same decision, I have to stand in-line for 2 hours on my lunch break to get a damn box of Ghirardelli chocolates that ANYBODY can buy for anyone.
I officially hate Christmas.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on Dec 24, 2008 12:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
You get a 2 hour lunch break!?!
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't everybody this time of year?
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on Dec 24, 2008 5:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I haven't had a lunch break in well over a year.
I see a deranged rabbit, on fire, cowering away from a vagina. I await the results of the Rorschaschererer. -Nico
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 24, 2008 11:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a fan so I want what's good for fans
in other words whatever helps as many teams as possible to be competitive.
That said, I don’t think bad planning should be rewarded.
by OaklandSi on Dec 24, 2008 12:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
There actually is a limit to the amount of FA a team can sign
However, it’s not an amount that is typically ever reached. It’s a system where they divide up the amount of Type A and B Free Agents and then divide that number by another number to come up with an amount of those Free Agents a team is allowed to sign. Problem is (depending on your POV), it’s never a small number. It’s something like 4 or 5 Type A’s this year, I believe.
I really don’t believe there is a fair way to police this, you cannot simply tell a team to stop spending at the point we are at right now in the game. If there truly is to be a solution, I think that there would need to be bigger monetary disciplines to a team that keeps spending all this money.
However, I don’t think there needs to be any sort of cap or anything. Let the Yankees be the Yankees. What’s great about the sport of baseball is any team can likely beat another team on any given day. This differs a lot from the NHL, NFL, and NBA. In General, a 3-13 football team almost never beats a 13-3 team. A 60 win basketball team will beat a 20 win team 9 out of 10 times. However, in baseball, a team with 100 losses will still have a good chance to win 1 game in a 3 game series against a 100 win team. And this has been proven in the playoffs, time and time again. In this century, I can recall one year where the best team won the World Championship. That’s why I say go and let them spend the money, none of it matters if they can’t finish it out in the playoffs.
by stranahanahan on Dec 24, 2008 12:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I guess one problem I have with "letting the Yankees be the Yankees"
is that it takes away any chance a team like the A’s might have to keep a player like Holliday. I wouldn’t mind if it was less likely, or even quite a bit less likely – but (pretty much) impossible every time makes it less interesting for the 25 other teams and their fans.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 12:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I forgot to ask
What time are we off today?
The thing is, the A’s aren’t really the A’s. They’re just a bunch of guys who will soon be working for someone else.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Dec 24, 2008 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, How about MLB does away with baseball teams in NYC, Boston and the NFL does away with all teams in Dallas?
Then, whatever revenue comes from these locations can be equally distributed among the remaining clubs.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
by Eastbayjim on Dec 24, 2008 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How would any revenue come from these locations if they don't have any teams?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 1:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't tell the fans
Just let them keep showing up to the stadiums.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 24, 2008 2:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Howsabout: any time a team spends > $150M the other team gets four outs per inning, or the Yankers only get two. Four stricks? Three balls=a walk? 2 DHs? Four outfielders?
BTW — to whom is the luxury tax paid?
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on Dec 24, 2008 1:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Luxury tax goes into a Selig slush fund
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 1:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a lotta slush.
Isn’t tghere some charity that could use it?
I know: fa-la-la-la-la….
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on Dec 24, 2008 1:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Charlie Finley had the right idea...
When free agency first began,Finley suggested to the other owners that all players should be free agents every year. If the market were flooded with players each year, the salaries would be kept in check. It’s the same as supply and demand with gasoline. When the supply is plentiful, the price goes down.
by Flamethrower on Dec 24, 2008 2:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
that would seemingly be like every player is entering an arbitration year every offseason
That would have had to be the case when free agency started. If that was the case now we would see a lot more salaries at a medium amount. A lot more guys making between $10-15 MM.
by stranahanahan on Dec 24, 2008 2:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's the opposite. The mid-tier guys don't make that much because they're not scarce anymore.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 2:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bob Abreu, Pat Burrell, Adam Dunn, Milton Bradley and learning that now.
Raul Ibanez still doesn’t know though.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 2:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great idea
Then the Yankees & Red Sox can go out and buy last’s year All-Star team every year.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
by DMOAS on Dec 24, 2008 3:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Economics
The only one I can think of that doesn’t directly impact salaries is to limit how many FAs a team can sign; after all, they weren’t your players, so why should you get to sign an unlimited number of players you didn’t develop or trade for?
This is certainly false. If you limit the demand of free agents, the aggregate price for them goes down. See also:
![]()
Pretend this graph is moving in reverse and P1 is the new price for free agents and P2 is the existing price. As demand decreases, you lower the price of free agents.
You might think that supply is static due to the rules of baseball (meaning that price is unchanged), but this isn’t true. Plenty of free agents would go unsigned or would sign extensions to avoid free agency because of this phenomenon.
Webmaster of Driveline Mechanics
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com - An Unconventional Look at Scouting
by Kyle Boddy on Dec 24, 2008 2:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
We don't disagree
I agree the price of free agents would go down. It’s just less direct than saying “individual salaries are capped at 10mil” or “team salaries are capped at 150mil.” But yes, the effect would in fact be that the value of free agents would be less and more players would sign extensions – which I think is just ducky.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 4:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And to appease the players union,
you make a concession back like higher arbitration awards or higher minimum salaries.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 4:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think if you make everyone a FA you eliminate arbitration, no?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 5:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You also encourage players to move around MORE,
which I would never want. Hey look, I’m replying to you again! My blogging vows last about as long as my vows about alcohol!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 5:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Make up posts are the best.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 5:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I make all mine up!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 5:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't care if the Yankees overspent their money
Last year the Devil Rays (28th on the salary list) ate their lunch and the Phillies (9th) won the world series. The A’s (23rd) have their own model too and I rather enjoy seeing what they can put together.
by Ran on Dec 24, 2008 3:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Why not see what they can put together with more money?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 3:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ya know I've wondered what that would have amounted to....
Let’s assume the A’s were a big market team since 2000 and could sign most of the big name guys we’ve traded away…
I am therefore assuming:
-We wouldn’t resign Damon…
-Giambi resigns in 2002 for 5ish years
-Miggy resigns in 2004 for 5ish years
-We keep Mulder and Huddy.
-We still let Zito walk.
-We still have current contract with Chavez
What would this mean?
2002-2004 wouldn’t have changed much except for the addition of Giambi, which would or would not have made a difference in the playoffs…
2005= Monster Year. We would have been favorites to win World Series, can only imagine what it could have amounted to.
2006= Severe dropoff for Mulder, Huddy, Chavez. Giambi’s last solid year. Miggy keeps it together, starts seeing his defense decline.
2007-present- As start seeing money come off the books but are in a poor position due to a depleted farm system. Mulder’s contract killed $25 MM+ as he tried helplessly to get healthy. Giambi gets hurt misses season, money starts to not be worth it.
Sure, this is all hypothetical, but I’m assuming Beane kept all the guys that he would have liked to, and look at the position we would be in. If we hadn’t made some of those trades to get Barton and Haren for Mulder, etc, the A’s would be hurting at about this time and we would be talking about how pissed we were that Teixeira, Sabathia, Dunn, Burnett, etc shunned our offers.
by stranahanahan on Dec 24, 2008 4:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd have signed A-Rod in 2000, and Carlos Beltran after that and traded for Johan Santana
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 4:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
haha
perfect…
Then the A’s are clearly unstoppable.
One thing is for sure, if we were a bigger market team, I truly believe we would be watching games at Cisco Field by now…
by stranahanahan on Dec 24, 2008 5:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
very good point, IMO
can brains beat lots of money? how much brains does one need to beat a lot, lot of money?
In many ways, teams that play pre-free agency players have some advantages, regardless of money, because those players presumably:
(1) play motivated by the free-agency payoff;
(2) are younger and thus less prone to injury;
(3) are mentally and physically in their prime (i.e. better range defensively)
(4) are more loyal to the team that brought them through the majors, when they are on the field.
The Yankees live and die by the free agent market. They overpay for players (Jeter), remain contractually obligated / stuck with players past their primes (Damon), and sacrifice their farm system because they always trade for “developed talent”.
They have not won a World Series since they shifted their focus away from home-grown players.
Also, those World Series winning teams had almost intangible qualities that the Yankees have not been able to duplicate no matter how much money they’ve spent (qualities such as tenacity, an ability to come back in games, good pitching and good defense, and timely hitting). They have a group of All-Stars, but whether they will have a cohesive team is another story. These qualities are incredibly important in my opinion, but they are very, very hard to manufacture. The 1996-2000 Yankees had it; the Rays had it this year; the A’s never had this even with their great teams such as the 2001 team. I don’t think this current group of Yankees has it. The Braves did a superb job of consciously trying to build teams with this quality.
They also still don’t have much pitching depth. If Burnett gets injured, for example, they have only CC to hang their hat on. And if CC’s numbers go up into 3.50-4.00 land, they will have vastly overpaid for him. CC is not as good as Santana. He is not as good as Halliday. He is not even an ace, IMO. Which is why I was surprised that Milwaukee wanted him so badly. He is no Randy Johnson. I think people got carried away with CC and I don’t think he’s an ace or deserves ace money. The Yankees were just desperate, and for good reason.
I think the Yankees get obnoxious people who understand nothing about baseball to spend $$$ pretending that they like the game, which is good for Mr. Wolff’s pocket, too.
by halflink123 on Dec 24, 2008 5:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great analysis - hope you're right!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 5:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with this is that the Yankees have been excellent in regular seasons but
not in the postseason — much like the 2001 A’s….but also the Braves.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 5:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sort of - they've often gotten off to strangely poor starts
and then played .750 ball at the ends of seasons. Usually, the poor start comes with batting .230 as a team for no apparent reason.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 5:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you mean the Yankees, then it also applies to the 2001 A's...and also the Braves
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 6:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My post had more of a post-season focus
I think that the Yankees may well win many games during the regular season (if Burnett stays healthy, Joba and Hughes pitch very well, and CC can keep his ERA below 3.50 for example). But they are steering away from, not toward, what made them a very successful club in 1996-2000.
The Braves had a dynastic decade.
1991: NL pennant
92: NL pennant
93: Lost championship series
94: strike
95: won WS
96: won NL pennant
97: lost NL championship series
98: lost NL championship series
99: won NL pennant
00: lost NL division series
01: lost NL championship series
02: lost NL division series
03: lost NL division series
04: lost NL division series
05: lost NL division series
True, the last 6 years go against my theory, in a way. Maybe the Braves just didn’t have the talent, I don’t know. But the Red Sox go toward my theory – much of their success has come from a team first philosophy and a young core of the team – i.e. Youkilis, Pedroia. I just think the first choice should always be to build from within.
I know that there are exceptions to the rule, but I think there is, empirically, more success (in baseball and in any organization) of promoting from within. And playing young talented guys over guys making $15M a year, in their thirties, who just – a bit of hyperbole here – don’t give a **** anymore.
Free agency is not a panacea.
by halflink123 on Dec 24, 2008 7:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, WHAT?
Out of the 9 guys in the Boston lineup the majority of the time last year, only 3 were “homegrown” players – Pedroia, Youkilis, and Varitek. I guess you could count Ortiz, but his story of coming through Minnesota is pretty well known.
Trying to paint the Redsox as the “team first, young core” type of team is a stretch. A huge one.
You would do better to look at the team that beat the Red Sox in the ALCS for the home grown young talent.
by mikev on Dec 24, 2008 10:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
not entirely accurate
you left quite a few important players:
Position players:
Ellsbury
Lowrie
Starting pitchers:
Lester
Bullpen:
Papelbon
Masterson
Delcarmen (he wasn’t that important, but still)
Next year, I imagine Masterson and Buchholz will have greater roles than they did this year. I didn’t mention the Rays in the previous post, but mentioned them in the first post in this chain. The Rays are an even truer example than the Red Sox.
by halflink123 on Dec 25, 2008 9:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure on CC
I think he’s an ace type of pitcher. He carried the Brewers on his back, granted it was only a half a season in the NL but it was darn impressive. He was the quintessential ace in Milwaukee. Did enough to win the CY in 07’ too…not sure what else he could do. Overpaid? I’ll go with that, his weight hasn’t bothered him yet but you have to wonder what he’ll be like in 4-5 years unless he changes something. I agree Santana is worth more too.
Gas to Chicago- $23.87 A's/White Sox Tix- $28 Watching the A's whipping the Sox in July 05'- Priceless
by WiscoFan on Dec 24, 2008 10:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you're right about CC...
His lifetime ERA is around 3.6-3.70. Contrast that with Johan Santana’s, whose ERA lifetime ERA is more like 3.2-3.3, and even that is overstated because of his first 2 (short) seasons. I know CC has been better lately however.
Santana has posted an ERA above 3.00 only twice since 2002. Santana appears to me to be a true ace. I could be wrong about CC. I still don’t think he’s capable of replicating his last 3 years, but I could be wrong obviously.
by halflink123 on Dec 25, 2008 9:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont mind the system thats in place now
What I do have a problem with is the restrictions that are put into place. I.E. The Oakland A’s can’t move into certain area’s because of the Giants. It’s one of the only business models where you can’t move your business to certain area’s to become more competitive.
There are zero rules in place to stop the Yankees from spending 300 Million a year on FA’s. There should be zero rules for a very good Business man such as Lew Wolf to move his team whenever and wherever he can cut a deal, that’s including NY. If he can get the land, the investors and a stadium built then he should be able to move his business (his team) to any location that makes his business more successful. To me it’s the American way.
I also dont like MLB taxing the the teams that spend over a certain amount of money. It really should be sink or swim. Dont keep teams like KC around just to be the Yankees, Mets, Sox and a few other teams extended farm systems. If they cant make money or keep customers (fans) returning to buy their product, then they should move or be out of business.
by asfaninpismobeach on Dec 24, 2008 3:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree in principle, but
I don’t think MLB has been helped at all by franchise shifts with the exception of the Browns moving. For example I’d much rather have the west coast be expanded to rather than with franchise shifts. I see no reason why Boston and Philadelphia can’t support two teams — they’re about the same size as the SF Bay Area in total income. I see no reason why the New York area can’t support three or four teams. It’s disruptive and anti-fan.
I can sort of see the Milwaukee, Pittsburgh and Kansas City markets not being “major league” long term, but other than that, I wouldn’t want to see a repeat of the NFL where nobody knows where their favorite team will be playing in five years.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 3:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey now..
Milwaukee proved it can handle a team, in the last few years solid to good attendance and 08’ was the first year having a true playoff contending team. Over 3 million last season. I think KC is a good baseball town too, just has had absolute crap for the last 15+ years. I’ve been to Pittsburgh for a couple games so I feel sorry for their fans and think its a sleeping baseball town too, just being punished like KC with total crap for 15+ seasons. One could argue Florida and Oakland are the worst since even when their teams have been at the top of the game the attendence is still mediocre. Hate to say that as an A’s fan but trying to be objective. I’ll give Tampa a break since this is the first time they’ve had a good team but if attendance doesn’t improve and stay solid they will be like Florida’s fan base, which I’m afraid of.
I think theres something to be said about having MLB spread out over more cities for the health of the game. Having 5 teams in NY would be, well, gross, IMO.
The cities aren’t the problem, its the system. I know the NFL is a different animal but each city except maybe Buffalo is doing just fine to keep their team, including smaller cities like Green Bay, Indy, Tennessee(Nashville?), Jacksonville and arguably Oakland.
Gas to Chicago- $23.87 A's/White Sox Tix- $28 Watching the A's whipping the Sox in July 05'- Priceless
by WiscoFan on Dec 24, 2008 10:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe small cities should share a team?
I’ve been thinking that in today’s transportation age that it would be possible to create new teams that share cities. Portland and Boise for example or Los Vegas and Reno and so on. Or there could even be a nomad team or simply a Mexican team and a Japanese team. Would shake things up.
by Ran on Dec 25, 2008 1:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yankee Nation
Is this Yankee Nation now? We’ve had 4 straight front page posts dedicated to the Yankees! 4! AN has East Coast Bias! NOOOO!
facepalm.jpg
by Zonis on Dec 24, 2008 3:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
AN tries to be topical and all you do is bitch and moan
At least the Yankees aren’t buying ads on AN!
Yet.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 24, 2008 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But I've seen plenty of Red Sox ads on AN, unfortunetly.
facepalm.jpg
by Zonis on Dec 24, 2008 4:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
{deletes Yankee post, goes back to bed}
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Dec 25, 2008 6:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with everything Dan Szymborski
Has to say in this piece.
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on Dec 24, 2008 4:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
That was a pretty impressive rant, but it doesn't address the issue of the Yankee and Met duopoly
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 4:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Forgive me
But I’m not familiar with the “issue of the Yankee and Met duopoly.” What do you mean?
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on Dec 24, 2008 4:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
2 teams in a market that is big enough for probably 4 or 5 teams
by mikev on Dec 24, 2008 4:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. That is what I mean.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 5:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I get a take of Un-Americaness
in your views there Nico. Free enterprise. De-regulate. May the best team win, no matter how constructed. Win at any cost if you got the dough. That’s what it is all about. Second place is first place for loosers.
alaska A residing in colorado.
by ak_A on Dec 24, 2008 7:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I like Alaska, though
That’s near America, right?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 7:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
so, Xmas eve, is a gala night for you too, eh?
alaska A residing in colorado.
by ak_A on Dec 24, 2008 8:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm 41-and-a-half today
{blows party favor}
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 8:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes I wish AN had a Don't Ask/Don't Tell policy
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 24, 2008 9:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
party_favor?
I have not seen that alias yet; who’s that? Tell me, does he get mad if he any part of his name is capitalized?
by LowcountryJoe on Dec 24, 2008 9:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
zing
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
by flipgatey3 on Dec 25, 2008 1:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Its Christmas
and obviously you miss the friends you made in County, so I’m just going to wish you a happy holiday.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 25, 2008 12:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Was 1989 a cheapened season for the Athletics?
The team had quite a few non homegrown players (especially pitchers).
by LowcountryJoe on Dec 24, 2008 9:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
quite frankly,
the ’89 season was cheapened by Ron Hassey.
He knows what he did.
I see a deranged rabbit, on fire, cowering away from a vagina. I await the results of the Rorschaschererer. -Nico
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 24, 2008 11:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yanks will pay $26.9 million...
…in luxury tax for the priviledge of no post season last year [hat tip The Sports Economist].
With the most recent signings, the Yankees look to be in great shape for the next couple of seasons. But beyond the next two seasons is anyone’s guess. As those annual salaries on those contracts is going to increase there is no guarantee that the players they signed will continue to play at the same elite level of performance that they had done in the past.
I am pretty comfortable that by year number five, those contracts are going to resemble a crippling albatross to the Yankees organization…and they’ll likely be paying a significant luxury tax next year and for years to come for the substantially increased opportunity to win in these next two to three years and to be mediocre thereafter; though I am probably underestimating the Yankees ability to continue to purchase talented players indefinitely.
****************************************************
Is it hypocritical for Oakland Athletics’ fans to knock the free agent signing of the Yankees yet in separate posts want the management/ownership of the Athletics to sign its own free agents? And just how many non-homegrown players constitutes a team as a fraud? Is there a specific number; a gut feeling; one just knows it when they see it?
To hate the Yankees primarily on the basis that they can do what the do financially and that somehow this just isn’t fair, strikes me as envy. If the Athletics were to ever begin making more in revenue, I’m sure that us fans would want to see the team start signing free agents more often. Would buying a championship be okay then? I tend to believe many of us would be willing to check our outrage at the ‘unfairness’ of it all at the door if the situation were different.
by LowcountryJoe on Dec 25, 2008 4:18 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
is it hypocritcal to want to buy an Apple
then get pissed when the rich guy down the block buys the entire cart? For 3 times what it should have cost, so that no one else can buy apples but him, and are all just left with the rotten ones?
facepalm.jpg
by Zonis on Dec 25, 2008 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Apples have a shelf-life
and there’s always new apples growing in the orchard. However, if one wants the good apples, one must be prePAREd to pay for them while the the time is ripe. Maybe in this analogy, though, the apples are picking the consumers.
Oh, and yes, I think that it is hypocritical. Next time put the cart before the horse apple.
by LowcountryJoe on Dec 25, 2008 12:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of people here must've missed the past 8 years when the Yankees had the highest payroll
and didn’t win the World Series.
by thejd44 on Dec 25, 2008 8:28 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
A think you guys (thejd44, LCJ, etc.) are missing my point
that the problem isn’t that the Yankees are too good, the problem is that they aren’t even building their own team. It’s like my K-8 school going out and bringing in a bunch of the most coveted 7th graders and then saying, “Look at how we educate our kids” based on the 7th grade class – who were not developed by our school but happen to currently have our name on their sports jerseys. The concept of what a team is becomes cheapened, whether or not the end result is a World Series ring.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 25, 2008 10:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But does that matter?
It’s really not like the seventh graders competing at a 6th grade competition. It’s grown adults playing for the entertainment of other adults. Also, the idea of the team seems more to be ruined by Loria/Sampson teams like the Marlins where any player with a name gets sold as soon as he possibly can be sold. The Yankees at least have Jeter and A Rod.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Dec 25, 2008 7:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It just goes against my concept of what a "team" is:
Your players.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 25, 2008 9:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Biggest payroll not always guarantee, but
no doubt it is a huge advantage. As far growing your own team the A’s are the best example of growing stars and watching them leave for more money than the A’s can afford. As an A’s fan the names Tejada, McGuire, Jackson, Rudi, Giambi, Catfish, Vida Blue, etc. just makes you think of what it could have been with a salary cap. None of those left because they thought Oakland was too ghetto — it was the money.
Despite 2008 record attendance, someday MLB will pay a price for this uncompetitive system. I predict resession of 2009 will be start of downward spiral MLB interest.
by BlueMoon on Dec 25, 2008 11:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'd remove those 70's stars from that list
that was pure owner greed right there and a big part of how FA started. Had the owners not been such cheap, greedy bastards, they could be making more money right now and paying the players much less.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
by DMOAS on Dec 25, 2008 12:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
So it is annoying...
That the Yankees more or less establish the market in these actions. It seems unfair that they can automatically sign the best two free agents without competition. I mean is there any doubt that they would have won a bidding war for Tex against slegnA or Boston? But the market is the market. And it seems a little funny to be overly upset as an A’s fan because our club’s philosophy would dictate that a FA signing on this level is just not worth the risk (eight or ten years guaranteed to a player at their performance peek). I am not an A’s fan in spite of this philosophy, this is why I love this team. So whatever. I have to agree with LCJ, that the Yankees actions may not even significantly improve the chances that they make the playoffs. The Rays and Sox look very good for the foreseeable future.
What I really hate, on Christmas even, is the level of exposure this will receive on ESPN and chances are the games on that excuse for a network, which is almost exclusively Red Sox and Yankees all the time, will be even more east coast centric.
So this will be the year that I find the money to pay for some kind of MLB package, whether it be on my computer or whatever. I will not sit through another season of ESPN (the ministry of plenty of yankees and red sox) drivel.
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Dec 25, 2008 12:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'm currently sick, so I don't have the time to write anything more exciting, however
I’ve had an idea for a couple years now, but it would require a salary cap. It’s obviously imperfect as I think any solution will be, but I guess it depends on what you are trying to solve. This idea was to make baseball teams hold onto their player identity, which is a big part of their overall team identity.
The idea is to give teams a discount against the cap on longer term contracts. The first year or two count 100% toward the cap, but the following years only make that year count at a percentage and go down from there, until it hits a minimum percentage at 10 or so years. I figure it could go down in small increments (98, 96) at first, and hit 80% at year ten.
In addition to keeping down the amount of money that big-market teams can spend, this would encourage teams to sign longer term contracts. The players still get the same amount of money they normally would under the cap, and perhaps more if the teams have a lot of long term contracts on the books.
Trading would restart the clock, so the receiving team no longer gets the discount until that second or third year (whichever was the first discount year). This should keep the number of trades down, as teams will only be able to trade if they have the cap room.
How this would be affected by arbitration and other contract things, I don’t know. What are the holes in my idea? Anything actually have merit?
by LoneStranger on Dec 26, 2008 6:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
It's a neat concept -
I don’t know about the underlying snags and how players/owners would respond (i.e., fight), but conceptually I like it. My central point, really, for this post was about team identity, not about competitive advantage and that’s what you’re addressing.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 26, 2008 8:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs




















