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Daric Barton - The team's pivotal player?

An awful lot of time and energy has gone into debating what to do about the shortstop postion.  But I would argue that, of the position players, the question of first base - and in particular, Daric Barton - is far more critical to the team.

First, the A's are not going to have a good shortstop next season, and likely not anytime soon.  Bobby Crosby will play out his contract, or Petit will man the position, or Beane will sign a less-desirable free agent.  Whatever.  It's hard for me to get excited about any of those options.  But it doesn't have to be the end of the world.  Lots of teams can contend with a mediocre shortstop, as long as he can field.

But teams rarely contend with a black hole at first base.  Daric Barton was the touted prospect in the Mulder deal, a young "pure" hitter who already had plate discipline.  He lacked power, but plenty of first basemen have done just fine in the major leagues if they do everything else well.

So we waited for his arrival.  And in 2007, we got a promising taste of what could be during his September callup.

And then 2008 happened.

Star-divide

I have been skeptical for a while about Barton, primarily because I like my first basemen to hit home runs more often than he is ever likely to do.  He was a pleasant surprise on defense, but that's really more of a bonus in a first baseman.  Otherwise, he was a disaster.

The question is what to do when a touted, and still young, prospect comes up to the major leagues and bombs.  My natural inclination is to be patient.  A lot of very good players have struggled early in their careers as pitchers adjust to them.  Miguel Tejada played a more demanding position, but didn't do much in his first year either.  Other stat-minded folks have posted more comprehensive lists.

The other problem with signing a free agent is that it effectively blocks Barton from playing his only logical position for at least a year and maybe longer.  What if Barton is shredding AAA pitching in April and May?  What do you do then?

I can think of a lot of things wrong with the other options frequently mentioned.  Jason Giambi is old, has been erratic in recent years, and isn't the steroid-fueled all fields hitter he was in 2001.  He's turned himself into a Yankee Stadium pulling machine.  Now, I'll concede that Giambi has always hit well in the Coliseum, and retain something of a soft spot for the guy.  But how many resouces do the A's really want to devote to trying to a past-his-prime player whose only definite plus as a hitter is his excellent eye.  The other options, like Adam Dunn, would be even more expensive.

I'm torn about this because, frankly, I'm not sold that Barton will ever be a productive major league first baseman.  If I am right about that, then the A's have as big a hole at first base as they do at shortstop.  And the Holliday trade almost demands that the team do something about first base, because there is no particular reason to think that Barton is going to suddenly become really good. 

This is where talent evaluation becomes important.  We can stare at Barton's numbers, and compare them to other players' stats, for weeks.  What matters is whether the team believes in this guy, and thinks he is likely to get his act together this year - as opposed to some theoretical future year.  It would be nice not to waste money on a first baseman, and devote those resources to other needs.  But if the team isn't sold on Barton, then Beane needs to take action and improve his offense at first base.

 

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This is exactly why we need to sign someone

The risk is not something we can take. If Barton starts shredding AAA pitching that is not a terrible problem. It is a minor inefficiency. If Barton tanks at the MLB level, it is a huge problem and serious inefficiency.

We want to have Barton under contract for his best seasons…when did people forget that. Even if some 1-2 year rental FA is slightly worse than him next year, which is highly unlikely imo, its still a smart move unless it is the difference between contending and not contending.

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Dec 23, 2008 1:22 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I don't really trust Barton anymore

his lack of power through the minors caught up wth him in 2007 outside of two months.

I’d love to get Dunn for a 3-4 year contract. And I’d want him over Burrel, Abreu or Giambi if not simply because he is the most likely of them to be valuable by the end of the contract. This is a good time to sign a 1B/DH because there are so many of them on the market right now, and one cost draft picks.

facepalm.jpg

by Zonis on Dec 23, 2008 1:26 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

He's 23...

How often do you see players (not named Albert Pujols) hit 40 HR as soon as they make it to the majors. They’re called lumps.

And I drive a boat called the SSS-It’s never a good time to sign a DH-type.

by NateHST on Dec 23, 2008 2:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's change the question a bit.

How often do you see non-near HOF caliber players(If Pujols keeps it up, we all know where he’s going) hit 40 dingers as soon as they make it to the majors?

Answer? Not very often.

"And you just don't get it, you keep it copacetic..."

by Blicks on Dec 23, 2008 10:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Of course, ARod, possibly the greatest player in the history of the damn sport, is the only one on that list who started playing at a younger age than Barton

other than Fielder, who actually won’t be a (much) more valuable player than Barton if Barton just does his .300/.400/.450 thing with great defense.

by thejd44 on Dec 24, 2008 9:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

was Canseco pumping him full of steroids?

cuz that might help Barton hit some more dingers

Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom

by designatedforassignment on Dec 23, 2008 10:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In the California Penal League!

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 10:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i don't think steroids would make barton hit 40 homers

he just doesn’t have the type of swing conducive to hitting a bunch of home runs, IMO. same with ryan sweeney.

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Dec 24, 2008 5:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's what they said about Palmeiro

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 5:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And they were right...about Orlando!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 5:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

must be too young to remember that

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Dec 25, 2008 1:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Giambi wasn't expected to hit for power.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Dec 26, 2008 12:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So, you're suggesting that Barton start taking a lot of steroids?

Personally, if I could convince one A’s prospect to roid up in the certainty that he would not be detected (and was somehow ethically OK with it, which I’m basically not), it would be Sean Doolittle… that guy with 30 more pounds of pure muscle could be a monster hitter…

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Dec 26, 2008 7:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ethics?

I thought you were studying to become a lawyer.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 27, 2008 3:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 30, 2008 5:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, I am not.

Just piling on. Other players who weren’t expected to hit for much power hit with considerable power after allegedly using steroids. The same could happen with Barton. I’m not proposing that he try it.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Dec 27, 2008 6:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

John Olerud never had "1B power"

And neither did Mark Grace.

Barton can be an above-average 1B with 10 homers a year (he had 9 last year), but I think he’s more likely to be in the 15-20 range. The problem is he has to gets more hits. He walked enough. 30%+ of his hits were for extra bases. He just needs to not hit .226.

Last year his wOBA was .302. That’s Crosby-esque. For 2009, James has Barton at .331 and Marcel has him at .333. Being a league-average hitter (below average for position) at age 23 isn’t so terrible, and it would be a definite improvement over 2008. And what’s more is that neither one of those projections thinks Barton is going to add home run power.

I’m not worried about Barton. There’s nothing about his past performance that says he just might not be cut out for the majors in the long run (or even the short run).

by thejd44 on Dec 23, 2008 6:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

he is still learning

one doesn’t have to be a rookie of the year to be a successful major league player, he is young and he has potential. Let me refresh your memories, he was not a 1B to start with, he made adjustments to get a chance for a spot on the major league roster. don’t be so quick to judge and give up, Have some faith in your Oakland A’s!!

by Wreckonized on Dec 23, 2008 3:17 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I don't think anyone is giving up on him...

But if we plan on contending this year we can’t have a below average hitting 1B. Sign or trade for a 1B and send Barton to AAA until he has an .OPS over .850.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Dec 23, 2008 7:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Barton hasn't hit that well above AA. He has no power.

Ok… he can take a walk. Big deal. That makes him a little better than the other shitty 1B.

Here’s the reality. Crosby is not mediocre. He’s one of the worst SS in MLB. Barton was the worst 1B last year. Unless he improves drastically this year, the A’s will be below .500.

Their rotation is made up of “potential” guys. Lots of talent, but no consistency. SS and 1B are black holes that need to improve.

If it’s true that Beane was serious about Furcal but low-balled him, then that was stupid. Now I guess we have to settle for Dunn/Giambi/Burrell who are marginal upgrades but may be upgrades just enough to make the Angels sweat a little bit.

Having a 1B with an OPS under .750 and a SS with an OP under .700 and a rotation of rookies won’t win you second place… much less a playoff spot.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Dec 23, 2008 7:05 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Barton was the WORST? really?

Did you not watch the Mariners trot out Richie Sexson for half of a season?

"I'm on hold for now"- Bobby Crosby

by DyeLongJustice on Dec 23, 2008 8:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sexson had an OPS+ of 89...

Barton’s was 85.

Of course Sexson cost the M’s a lot more in terms of money. But taking that out of the equation, Barton was worse.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Dec 23, 2008 8:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok my apologies...

Barton and Sexson are roughly the same. Is this an argument we really need to be having?

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Dec 23, 2008 9:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

sorry

and no, we really don’t. I just think that while Barton wasn’t good last year, he should get one more shot with out team, now or later, to prove he was/wasn’t a bust. With his defensive capabilities, his age, and his minor league track record, he should be an above average 1b. I don’t think he’s going to be a slugger, but if he starts hitting for some average, his OBP will be pretty high and his value will be worth a lot more.

"I'm on hold for now"- Bobby Crosby

by DyeLongJustice on Dec 23, 2008 11:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Angels Lineup

1. Figgins/Willits – LF
2. Kendrick – 2B
3. VLAD – DH/RF
4. Torii – CF
5. Napoli/Mathis – C
6. Morales/Quinlin – 1B
7. Rivera – RF/LF/DH
8. Wood – 3B
9. Aybar/Izturis – SS

That lineup isn’t scary. I think the current lineup will make the Angels sweat enough. Add another bat w/ Holliday, or look for a player to step up their game (Buck, Barton, Cunningham, Sweeney, etc.)… our offense will be better than Anaheim.

by Colorado Fan on Dec 23, 2008 8:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather the slegnA not sweat

that way they’re not as motivated to make a big deal. Let us catch em by surprise :)

"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra

by Cheezombie on Dec 24, 2008 1:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That is why we should......

Sign Dunn or Burrel to play 1st. I like Dunn because of his age and power numbers. I like Burrel because he hits right handed!! Barton still has plenty of trade value because he is still young. We package Barton, Simmons, Crosby, and another mid level prospect to a team to grab a legitimate SS. I’ll let you guys speculate who.

If we sign Dunn to a 3, incentive driven option for year 4 deal, that would give a few of our other minor league 1b prospects time to develop. We wouldn’t be rushing Chris Carter, Doolittle, or Donaldson. We can take our time in letting these guys deveolop proplerly in our system.

So we go into 2009 with the SS we need and Adam Dunn/Pat Burrel and we don’t need to overspend and we won’t need to sell the farm system to get the SS we all desperately need.

by bdemartin on Dec 23, 2008 7:44 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

That sounds good to me...

I wonder what Barton’s value is to anyone right now considering his bad 2007. But, if he still has ok value, then I don’t have a problem with your strategy… assuming the group of guys you mention would net us a long-term SS. I’ve been following the SS discussion going on here and it doesn’t seem like there are a lot of good and available SS.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Dec 23, 2008 8:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Crosby has negative value at this point

so a trade with the players you offered would be Barton (who’s value is currently low, as evidenced by this post), Simmons (also had a downish year), and another ‘mid-level’ prospect, with Crosby as a neutral or negative influence on the trade. Maybe that gets us a SS prospect, but one not you aren’t going to be thrilled with. That would either net a low-A SS or some not good AAA SS, but probably nothing of use.

"I'm on hold for now"- Bobby Crosby

by DyeLongJustice on Dec 23, 2008 8:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I couldn't disagree more

Barton (please correct me if I’m wrong) is 23, and one bad year from a 23 year old does not deflate his trade value. Not when you are as talented as Barton, and not for a team that might be rebuilding. Simmons is an Oakland A’s pitching prospect, you don’t think there aren’t plenty of GM’s around the league that would love to have one of the many pitching prospects in the A’s organization. Simmons still has plenty of value. As for Crosby, for a team that is rebuilding, they can grab a 1 year SS that still has the potential to have a decent year. He probably won’t have a good year, but for 1 year and if Oakland takes on some of his salary, than why not??

by bdemartin on Dec 23, 2008 8:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Regarding Crosby

no one wanted him through waivers, when he could essentially be had for 5 mil. Having the A’s pay some of that would at least make him worth considering, but I’m pretty sure most teams don’t want him.

Also, I’m not trying to imply that Simmons and Barton have no value, but that it’s lower than this time last year, and it’s probably better to trade them after we rebuild some of their value.

"I'm on hold for now"- Bobby Crosby

by DyeLongJustice on Dec 23, 2008 9:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Barton's value now is lower than it was a year ago

Simply because some probably question if his 2008 was a fluke or if he’s just bad.

by thejd44 on Dec 23, 2008 9:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

if daric barton, a first baseman, was perceived as having a lot of value to get a shortstop, a position of need that is rare to find a gem in, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion because he would be the starter, no questions asked. the fact that the a’s are talking to giambi shows that they are AT LEAST a bit apprehensive to just hand him the job again.

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Dec 24, 2008 5:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Though his defensive value should be higher

If you believe the scouts are right and that he’ll hit, the surprisingly good defense could be considered more significant than the surprisingly bad hitting.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 5:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

point well taken

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Dec 25, 2008 1:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

we should also consider

That the good defense in 2008 could be a fluke just as the bad hitting may be. In terms of trade value, I think Barton is probably a complete enigma right now, which always has a negative effect. I would think that Beane will hold onto him in 2009 because he would be trading at a discount at this point. He’s going to be valued as a crappy player, which he hopefully isn’t.

by jdr on Dec 26, 2008 10:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There just aren't that many shortstop prospects floating around, period

The position is really hard-up for talent right now throughout the minor leagues.

Maybe they can score DeJesus now that the Dodgers re-upped Furcal. I could see trading Simmons for him one-for-one or maybe with a throw-in minor prospect.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Dec 23, 2008 10:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

BP just did the Phillies Top-11 prospects

They think Donald will make a fine 2B.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 23, 2008 11:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

what happens when utley comes back?

i guess he’d need more seasoning anyway?

"I'm on hold for now"- Bobby Crosby

by DyeLongJustice on Dec 23, 2008 12:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Third Base

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Dec 23, 2008 4:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

he’s gonna start at 2b if utley doesn’t make it back by opening day.

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Dec 24, 2008 5:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

also its questionable if he has the range for ss longterm

Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom

by designatedforassignment on Dec 23, 2008 11:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Do those types of trades ever happen?

Two well-regarded prospects with no major league experience traded for each other straight up just seems like something that you never, ever hear about.

by thejd44 on Dec 23, 2008 3:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It doesn't have to be straight up. Duke could be involved.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 4:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, that was change the parameters to fit a more typical trade type

But DeJesus for SImmons and a minor prospect would be unusual for sure.

by thejd44 on Dec 24, 2008 9:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They do seem to be rare but there's no good reason why they should be

I can’t see a GM turning down the trade proposal because “teams just don’t do that thing.”

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Dec 24, 2008 11:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

as a whole you are probably right

but there are still a lot of GM’s out there who don’t like to stray too far away from the status quo, which is why rodrigo lopez-types keep getting trotted out each year at some point or another to make starts in the major leagues. not the same thing, but i feel like it’s clear what i’m getting at. who knows if coletti is that kind of GM who would do something like that, but i wouldn’t mind finding out in this case.

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Dec 24, 2008 5:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, this is what I was going for.

Should these deals happen? Of course. Why not? If you have a stud pitching prospect and the other guy has a stud shortstop prospect and those guys fit needs, trade ‘em. But for some reason there seems to be an established thing about it not happening, so I think it’s a bit unrealistic even if it actually makes sense.

by thejd44 on Dec 25, 2008 8:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

garza for delmon young last year

but those are admittedly rare

"Sometimes Joe (morgan) doesn't like facts to get in the way of his opinions."- billy beane
"That was a great pick...if this was 2002" Me, to guy who selected Barry Zito in a fantasy draft

by harendaman365 on Dec 27, 2008 10:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sign Burrell

He would give A’s flexibility (DH, OF and 1B ) and right-handed power. A’s do not have power at SS, C, CF, to compensate for a no-power 1B. Let Barton learn to hit 25-30 hrs at Sac. If he develops great — the A’s will find room.

by BlueMoon on Dec 23, 2008 8:28 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

You need to post more often bear88

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 23, 2008 8:34 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

ditto that

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 23, 2008 9:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

ditto #2

Always intelligent, measured, and well thought out.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 9:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Indeed -- definitely *not* front-page material

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 23, 2008 9:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You don't think

“Gettin’ Beary With It” would catch on?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 9:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm going to ber8 you about how bad that title is

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 23, 2008 9:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good point

We can’t let anyone with talent on the front page, it would make the rest of us look bad.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 23, 2008 9:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

truth about barton

  First he will never be a homerun hitter. He may hit 20 but not much higher. Where he disapoints in avg and oba. I do believe he will be able to hit but needs another year in AAA to hit the breaking ball.

by Arcman on Dec 23, 2008 8:58 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Good work, bear88

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Dec 23, 2008 9:14 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I agree with everything you said --- except your thesis

I actually do agree with your fundamental insight that upgrading from Barton’s ‘08 (whether that be done by Daric himself or someone else) is more crucial to the team’s success than upgrading from Crosby’s ’08.

But the A’s pivotal player? Unfortunately, by dint of the team’s questionable judgment, it’s Chavez.

Barton can easily be replaced/upgraded by relatively affordable (and relatively disposable) external options.

But when Chavez succumbs to one or several of his chronic owies … it’s back to Hannahan (and I’m a fannahan of his fielding, but he’s simply not a major-league hitter).

The A’s are, apparently, relying on Chavez returning to his early-aughts form. And that ain’t happening.

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 23, 2008 9:15 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Agree with this

Say the team goes with Barton and he’s just as bad as 2008. After a month, you can find a first baseman on the cheap.

If Chavez falls apart, it’s Hannahan. Or, ideally, Baisley. But neither guy is as good as a healthy Chavez. The A’s don’t really need Barton to be great (just live up to his Marcels) to win. They do need Chavez on the field.

by thejd44 on Dec 23, 2008 9:35 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Which is why it's so odd to me that so many on AN

are highly skeptical of Chavez’ ability to stay on the field for a year but are mad at Beane for not throwing $40+million at the hope that another back surgery recoveree will stay healthy throughout four years. Granted, Chavez has had more different injuries repaired than Whatshisface has, but four years is a LOT longer than one.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 9:38 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

good point about Furcal

I was, off the bat, in the NO MORE CHRONIC BACK INJURY GUYS! camp, and it’s certainly possible that we dodged a bullet.

However, I think grover’s position (and correct me if I’m wrong, g) — that if the risk was judged to have been worth taking, the potential reward in the massive upgrade over Crosby and the rest of the SSs available was so high that the signing should have been pursued more aggressively. Basically, that while one can place an absolute value on Furcal’s worth, it’s kind of meaningless until you assess his relative value.

And if, ultimately, Beane judged the risk to be too high (which I think he did, by placing an absolute ceiling on his own offers to Fircal), then why in the heck isn’t the risk of Chavez too high? (Because Chavez is a sunk cost, that’s why. That particular hat can’t be uncocked.)

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 23, 2008 9:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

whoops. first sentence in the second graf is a fragment

I meant to say I agree with what I believe to be grover’s position.

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 23, 2008 9:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Correct in the essentials

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 23, 2008 9:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's my latest musing on the whole issue

Maybe the A’s offered 4/36ish because they felt they couldn’t/shouldn’t allocate more than $36mil to the cause, and they offered four years because they thought that’s the hook that would land Furcal (as he had indicated) – and Beane figured the fourth year would be a throwaway for what would really amount to a 3/36 deal (plus gravy if Furcal stayed really healthy).

What I think the A’s could have done, and IMO should have done, is offer Furcal 3/36, giving him the annual salary he was seeking, more annual than anyone else was offering, and the same number of years other teams had made their max (so it’s not like the A’s would get outbid based on # of years). You then offer him arbitration, meaning that for 2012 you either get his services at the rate an arbitrator deems fair, or you get one or two draft picks.

Now even in this scenario, it’s entirely possible Furcal would have said no because the Dodgers unexpectedly stepped up and offered a 3-4 year deal. But I think the A’s may have overestimated how much Furcal cared about the 4 years, underestimated how much he cared about the annual salary, and based their bid on the wrong aspect.

grover: What if the A’s had been unwilling to offer Furcal a four year deal, and had been unwilling to make any offer that exceeded 40million – BUT offered 3/36 as their “take it or leave it” offer? Could you get behind that? I could.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 10:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd have been OK with the A's offering 3/36

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 23, 2008 10:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I know I've covered this before, but I'll repeat it again 'cause I like the sound of my own typing

When we saw how weak the market was looking I thought it was an ideal time to offer Furcal a 3 year + option deal at $11-12 million annual with a $3 million kicker if the option wasn’t picked up. You could have also included language to make it a vesting 4th year based on PA over 2010 & 2011 as further incentive for Furcal.

That’s the path I would have chosen.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 23, 2008 10:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm more with you on the notion

that the A’s messed up by not offering a kickass 3-year deal instead of a so-so 4-year deal. I just think 4/44 on up would have been too much to risk in total money for a team like the A’s.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 12:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Dodgers won with 4/$46M, with only $30M of that guaranteed and the

rest in health bonuses and vesting options. The A’s could have done that in the beginning and probably signed Furcal weeks ago.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Right! Except that not.

Furcal would have used that offer to get the one he got from the Dodgers.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 4:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well yes, as well he should. So the A's would have had to offer the

$48M or $52M that he said he wanted from them from the beginning.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 4:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Which, fortunately, Beane is smart enough not to do

Too high odds that you find yourself, in a year or two, with a broken SS and not enough money to solve that or other problems.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 6:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Right. I agree with not signing him. But I'd like to have someone

stand between Ellis and Chavez (or Patterson and Hannahan).

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 10:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I was always on the fence about Furcal

At first I thought 4 years guaranteed was terrible, but then the Holliday deal happened and I thought that a win-now approach to 2009 wouldn’t be bad, even if that meant a couple bad back-end years. But I’m not devastated that a shortstop I’ve never thought much of went elsewhere.

by thejd44 on Dec 23, 2008 9:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Which makes me wonder

why we spent some of our best trade pieces on another outfielder (regardless of how good Holliday is) rather than on acquiring a SS or 3B and then spending money on one of the myriad free agent LF/1B/DH types.

by faninphilly on Dec 23, 2008 10:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It doesn't matter where the production comes from

The real question is will Holliday’s superior production in left (moving Cust back to DH, Gonzalez and the pitchers to Colorado, etc.) be more than the upgrade at third or short , assuming the same package of players? Unless you’re getting a top 3-4 SS in baseball, probably not. So while LF wasn’t a huge hole or anything, they upgraded the spot in a big way. It would likely have been impossible to make such a significant upgrade with those same pieces at the other two positions (especially if the new regime in Seattle isn’t too keen on trading Beltre).

by thejd44 on Dec 23, 2008 3:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's what I wonder

What would the A’s have had to add to Street, Gonzalez, Smith to get, say, Escobar (or Hardy, but I don’t think the Brewers were high on Street)? Perhaps they could have gotten a really good SS for the Holliday package plus parts not Cahill/Anderson, and then signed Dunn or Burrell to “play” (butcher) LF, leaving them with a lineup like:

Escobar – SS
Cust – DH
Burrell/Dunn – LF
Chavez – 3B
Suzuki – C
Sweeney – CF
Ellis – 2B
Barton – 1B
Buck – RF

That not only might put the A’s in position to contend this year, but it would be way better for the future, with Escobar/Hardy in hand and Dunn/Burrell on a multi-year deal.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 4:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They can still trade Holliday for a SS and sign a butcher.

Holliday to the Dodgers for Hu, Kuo and Gordon?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 4:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hu's bat does nothing for me

I’ve heard he is a wizard with the glove, but he simply won’t hit in the bigs… He’ll most likely end up as a Vizquel type…

by stranahanahan on Dec 23, 2008 5:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Given that Vizquel might go the HOF you wouldn't take that?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 5:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

course I would

but I’m just saying that he will be a fine defensive SS, with an acceptable average, but low slugging, and not great OBP.
I’m not at all saying he will be Omar Vizquel though.
To add a bit, I just think there’s a reason why LA resigned Furcal beyond the fact that he’s a good player. The organization doesn’t seem to be too hot on Hu, I mean, LA isn’t exactly in win now mode, so it’s odd that they would let this guy sit around for another 3 years, waiting to take the reins, when he feasibly could have won the job out of spring training with no Furcal.
I know his name was being tossed around in the Jack Wilson trade and the Dodgers balked at the asking price, but I think they were trying to test the market to see what his max value is. I mean, don’t be surprised if he is traded this offseason…

by stranahanahan on Dec 23, 2008 6:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Which is why we should snap him up!

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 10:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If he's guaranteed to be Omar Vizquel in his prime, yes please.

If that’s his absolute best and he’s very likely to be much worse. That makes him Rey Ordonez. Meh.

by thejd44 on Dec 24, 2008 9:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You make a good point. Here's my take.

Initially, I was in the no more than 2 years camp, but warmed up to 4 years.

Simple: The A’s sunk valuable long-term assets into Holliday. If they are going to do that, they need to commit 100% to putting a contending team on the field. Trading for Hardy would be sacrificing even more long term assets.

The hypothetical Furcal contract, even if it did fail, wouldn’t be franchise crippling. It was just a move that had to be made in light of the Holliday issue.

"And you just don't get it, you keep it copacetic..."

by Blicks on Dec 23, 2008 11:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They sunk * a * valuable long-term asset into Holliday

Big difference imo.

Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's

by iamawesomer on Dec 23, 2008 11:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

you cant just write off street like he's worthless

first off, he is one of the better late-inning pitchers in the game, be it at as a set up guy or a closer.
second, you can’t expect ziegler to be half as good as he was last year. i think teams will figure him out at least a little and at best he becomes chad bradford, which is definitely a useful piece, but not a lights out set-up guy.
third, as much as i love devine, he is inexperienced and injury prone. not necessarily two qualities you want your closer to posess.

i also agree with blicks. in this market, i would have rather traded CarGon and change to milwaukee for either Hardy or Escobar and then sign Dunn – who won’t cost a draft pick (what were the Dbacks thinking?) – to man a corner outfield spot/1b (if Barton still sucks and if cunningham steps up)

"I think people in this state like BOTH teams," proclaims Nick Aliotti, the Ducks' defensive coordinator. "Except for our hard-core fans, I don't think most Duck fans would have been terribly upset to see Oregon State going to the Rose Bowl."

Another reason he needs to go.

by diehardoaklandfan22 on Dec 23, 2008 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Furthermore, if the A's still had Street

they would be in MUCH better position to acquire a SS.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 4:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not if they trade Holliday instead.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 4:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not so sure about that

Take the Brewers for example. Betwixt Hardy and Escobar, they’re set at SS. They don’t need a power hitting OFer like Holliday, they need pitching. They could use a closer and a SP.

Smith and Street would have offered both at under $6 million in 2009.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 23, 2008 4:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, but if they were willing to trade Escobar for those guys I'm assuming

it would have been done in July. Dodgers will need a LF if they don’t sign Manny and they have 3 SS prospects.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 5:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That doesn't make a lot of sense

Cleveland was looking for power bats when they shopped Sabs.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 23, 2008 5:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I meant if the Brewers were willing to trade Escobar for Street and

Smith it would already have happened when they were looking for bullpen help in July.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 10:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My take on the Brewers...

They’re more interested in moving Hardy than Escobar, and no way were they moving Hardy last year.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 23, 2008 10:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Right. I think they might even try to extend Hardy if possible

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 10:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’d guess that Cleveland asked for Escobar and were told he wasn’t available. Ditto for Gamel.

by Lovejoy on Dec 24, 2008 9:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You'd probably guess wrong

The Indians have Cabrera at SS if they ever move the lug they got now over to 3B.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 24, 2008 10:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I infer that from a variety of miscellaneous comments by Melvin, Gord Ash and Cleveland media reports of their principals comments.

FWIW there was a lot of kvetching by Indians fans that the team didn’t demand Escobar and settled for LaPorta.

But i don’t really know much about the Indians.

by Lovejoy on Dec 24, 2008 10:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Indians fans are... interesting.

12 months ago I got into it with some Indians fans who swore up, down and sideways that they wouldn’t trade Cabrera for Dan Haren straight up. And now you’re saying 6 months later they were bitching about not getting Escobar?

Ha.

As for any other comments you may have heard, Escobar was considered by many to be the Brewers’ best prospect… anyone looking to deal with them was going to ask about him even though they knew he was off limits. It’s like when teams would talk to the Dodgers a year ago, they’d ask about Kershaw even though they knew there wasn’t a chance in Hell the Dodgers would part with him. It falls under the: If you don’t ask they can’t say Yes policy.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 24, 2008 3:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Smith sucks, Street is around for 2 years

Brewers would’ve laughed at an offer of those two for either Hardy (above average SS >>>>>> above average RP) or Escobar (6 years cost control)

Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's

by iamawesomer on Dec 23, 2008 7:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Could you at least read the comment carefully?

I’m talking about adding to Street, Smith, Gonzalez with more real value, e.g. Mazzaro plus.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 7:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and as for Street only being around for two years,

you mean like Hardy? Har har.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 7:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I have no idea -

I’m so busy being huffy, who has time to research details?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 7:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's the thing that always amazes me...

The Brewers need pitching, in the rotation and in the bullpen. Exactly how many innings do you think J.J. Hardy is going to provide them?

Greg Smith pitched 190+ innings as a rookie and managed a 97 ERA+. I’m not saying he’s going to be any great shakes in the future (especially pitching in Colorado) but he should be a solid back-end-rotation SP for the next 5 years and he’ll do it on the cheap.

Street, even if merely an above average RP, can close and when healthy has had recent stretches of pitching well above average. He’s also relatively cheap. Together, these two offer up over 250 average/above average IP. That’s 250 IP that Hardy will not provide.

Let me repeat: J.J. Hardy is not the guy to turn to if the Brewers want to someone to pitch for them.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 23, 2008 9:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Brewers have also had major issues with closing

and Street offers a solution to an existing hole. Gonzalez is already a league average CF and he has a lot of upside. Add a major league ready starter in Mazzaro or Braden and you have a pretty good haul.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 9:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

could I remind you that Street is injury and blown save prone

and reports out of Milwaukee midseason suggested that the Brewers didn’t fancy Street. What makes you think that they would want him?

Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom

by designatedforassignment on Dec 23, 2008 11:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

regardless if its a good strategy or not

Doug Melvin doesn’t have a problem going into the year with a bunch of potential closer types and seeing who hangs in there. They’ve had a lot of luck with guys like Derrick Turnbow, Dan Kolb, Salomon Torres and Francisco Cordero who were somewhere between scrap heap and decent middle inning guys. Eric Gagne not so much.

I’d think Melvin would take a closer as part of a trade, but its not going to be a high value thing.

I don’t know what their thinking is on CF. I hope they give Iribarren a shot this spring and there is a guy in AA who will be in AAA that I’m blanking on the name.

I don’t really know enough about Mazzaro or Braden to say anything.

by Lovejoy on Dec 24, 2008 10:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Their luck always runs out before Sept, though,

so they may want to try a proven closer. That being said, Street and Milwaukee are probably not a good match, simply because they scouted Street when he was at his worst and they probably have a baised view of how good he isn’t.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 10:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think their September problems are centered on a closer.

by Lovejoy on Dec 24, 2008 10:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you mean Lorenzo Cain

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 24, 2008 1:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So if they sign Sheets and Fuentes and jettison Cameron and Hart

to cut payroll they’re good?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 10:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

gak

another offer of a back end of the rotation pitcher. They’d be better off taking a cheap free agent pitcher and keeping Hardy.

The Brewers have Gallardo however you will rate him, Parra who could be anywhere between a 2 and 5 and a handful of 5s. What’s the point of having a rotation chock full of 5s?

by Lovejoy on Dec 24, 2008 9:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The could

Get a SS by trading Holliday, maybe even at midseason.

RIVER CATS: AAA CHAMPS!

by niallmack on Dec 23, 2008 4:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but that means they aren't contending in 2009,

whereas by acquiring a SS and FA power hitter now, Oakland could better meet Billy’s goal of being “better now and better in the future.”

I’m just curious what people think it would have taken to land Escobar, and what it would have taken to land Hardy, for a package starting with Street, Smith, Gonzalez. For Escobar, maybe Mazzaro and one more desired prospect? (Who?) For Hardy, maybe Mazzaro alone? Or am I way over or under shooting here?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 6:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hardy was maybe the Brewers most valuable player besides CC last

year. I see no way they would trade him for Street and prospects while contending. Escobar as a prospect is generally considered in the Top 50 – 100 overall and Top 4 among SS (Beckham, Beckam, and Andrus), so I’d think they’d want a lot for him.

Goldstein had him as a 4-star guy (meaning he’d consider him for the Top 100) and milb.com had him in the Top 10. Community List at Sickels site has him in the Top 50 or so. You could argue Brignac in the Top 4 SS but he seems worse to me.

I think their core position players going forward is Salome/Lawrie – Gamel – Weeks – Escobar – Hardy – Fielder. If they’re going to trade anyone I’d think it would be Fielder or Gamel, not one of the up-the-middle guys.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 10:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

agree with most of that

but if they’re trading I would imagine its Hardy in the next year or two and then Prince. Fielder is a Boras client and I don’t think he’s signable. I know there was a rumored proposal of 60 million but I can’t remember the length. That also means that Gamel is valuable as a lefty which they are sorely lacking.

Personally I’d like them to extend Hardy, but i have no idea what JJ wants to do. He won’t be cheap and as an organization they can only do so many extensions, especially when they have a replacement in waiting in Escobar. I’d say given cost considerations there is virtually no chance Escobar gets traded.

by Lovejoy on Dec 24, 2008 10:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think two years is really "long term"

Yes Street is good, but he’s still just a reliever. You can pick up good relievers very cheaply within our own farm system or on the FA market it seems seeing the deals Howry and Affeldt got.

I don’t expect Ziegler or Devine to be as “good” as they were last year (I guess you mean by ERA). Inexperience isn’t a big deal if you can K more than one batter per inning.

You also just can’t say “I’d trade this guy to Milwaukee” like its a possible option. Who knows what they’re interested in.

Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's

by iamawesomer on Dec 23, 2008 7:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They certainly didn't seem interested in Street.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 10:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

a team has to want the assets youre trying to trade them to consummate a deal

Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom

by designatedforassignment on Dec 23, 2008 11:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

2 names

if barton doesnt pan we have Chris Carter (a big part of haren trade).

carter’s average is pretty low but he draws walks hits for massive power and has size and body to continue and grow as a power hitter
http://firstinning.com/players/Chris-Carter-b/

there is also sean doolittle who im not as sold on

by Warriors510 on Dec 23, 2008 10:55 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I don't think we should rush up prospects to fuel a contention effort.

Chris Carter has not seen an AB above advanced A ball. There is zero, and I repeat, zero, reason he should be in the bigs next year.

Carter’s (and Doolittle’s) success are MUCH more important to the organization than the 2009 contention effort.

"And you just don't get it, you keep it copacetic..."

by Blicks on Dec 23, 2008 11:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Carter as a non-roster invitee to Spring Training this year

It will be interesting to see how he fares facing elevated competition.

I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.

by franks a lot on Dec 23, 2008 11:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i would like to sign Giambi or Dunn

trade Barton – if he has decent value – or let him improve in Sacto. That gives us 2-3 years of a legitimate first baseman, plus by then Carter and Doolittle will have had plenty of time in the minors and they will be knocking on the door ready to replace Giambi/Dunn. Heck, maybe the A’s even hang out on Barton and he becomes the best of the bunch.

Question: if the A’s stash Barton back in AAA, do the A’s the still have the same amount of major league pre-arb years once he gets back to oakland?

"I think people in this state like BOTH teams," proclaims Nick Aliotti, the Ducks' defensive coordinator. "Except for our hard-core fans, I don't think most Duck fans would have been terribly upset to see Oregon State going to the Rose Bowl."

Another reason he needs to go.

by diehardoaklandfan22 on Dec 23, 2008 3:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If Giambi is only worth 1 win more than Barton this year

And that’s not really a crazy possibility. How does that make Giambi “legitimate” but Barton not. It’s just one win.

by thejd44 on Dec 23, 2008 3:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i think the impact he would have on the line-up would make him indirectly more valuable than one win

giambi would bat in the heart of the order and give some protection to cust/chavez/holliday. barton DOES NOT intimidate anyone.

"I think people in this state like BOTH teams," proclaims Nick Aliotti, the Ducks' defensive coordinator. "Except for our hard-core fans, I don't think most Duck fans would have been terribly upset to see Oregon State going to the Rose Bowl."

Another reason he needs to go.

by diehardoaklandfan22 on Dec 23, 2008 3:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

pool boys and paramedics, maybe

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 23, 2008 3:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

To answer your latter question, yes

Players on optional assignment in the minors do not accrue big-league service time.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Dec 24, 2008 11:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think, in terms of offense, the most pivotal guy is Barton, or whoever's at first

I would say if Barton gets up to league average with a bit of pop in his bat and shows some plate discipline, that would be a great upgrade over last season.
I am more concerned with the production from 3rd. Also, lets hope Ellis gets back to the form of ‘07, showing some of that power. ’Zook needs to stay healthy and perform like last year, and consistent production out of 2 not named Holliday. If we see performance at these positions, I think we will be in good position. I don’t believe the team lies on the production of a 23 year old 2nd year guy…

by stranahanahan on Dec 23, 2008 12:14 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The thing is..

It feels like this can be said about the entire team, not just daric barton.

Chavez- Will he play as well as we all know he potentially can, or will he never be that good again?
Buck- Will he live up to the potential and brilliance he flashed , or struggle as he did last year?
Sweeney- Was that all just luck and a fluke or did we just find ourselves a good OF?
Ziggy- See above, change position.
Crosby- Does he really suck this bad ?

It seems the list will never end. Sometimes i look at the players on this roster and think of all the potential and get very excited while convincing myself of the great possibilities ahead. Other times i’ll remember, he looks like brad pitt, but dammit, he hits like gilbert gottfried. March can’t come soon enough, i’m ready to find out.

by Dukererer on Dec 23, 2008 4:03 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

You just posed four legitimate questions followed by a given

But yeah.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 4:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Chavez -- never be that good again

Buck — brilliance flashed but misses 80 games/year
Sweeney — Average CF for a couple of years, then declines defensively and is quickly a 4th OF
Ziggy — Good reliever
Crosby — Worse

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 4:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

wow. you think Crosby will be even *worse*?

I’m having trouble imagining what “worse” at the plate would look like for BoCro. I guess he could start really letting his offensive failure weigh on him in the field, and demonstrate that his ‘08 fielding numbers weren’t just a numeric aberration but a genuine downward trend.

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 23, 2008 4:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Crosby will always be worse than our wildest nightmares allow us to imagine

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 5:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why would Sweeney's defense decline in his mid-20s?

That doesn’t make sense to me.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 6:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

MGL had this to say on fielding aging curves

From RLYW

BTW, players generally decline defensively starting from a very early age (early 20’s), much like the aging curve for their triples rate. First base defense might be an exception to that rule. Anyway, we should still see Sheff and Giambi hitting well-above average for their positions, although not nearly as well as they hit 3 or 4 years ago.

I can’t find the actual studies he used to support this though.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 11:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Some actual studies blur this though.

Tango found that SS defense decline started sometime around 24, but can be up to 28 for certain players.

Camden Depot found that 2B defense peaked around 27-29 because of the greater skill vs athleticism component of that position.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 11:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If Sweeney sticks in center

I actually think he’ll get a little better. The drop in physical ability should be countered by becoming more familiar with a position he hasn’t played that much.

by thejd44 on Dec 24, 2008 9:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Chavez- You're probably right, but if healthy, you can count on respectable production

Buck- If he picks up where he left off at the very end of the season, he’s going to be scary good.
Sweeney- Everyone here either loves or hates him. I’m founding member and president of the Ryan Sweeney fan club, but to be fair, he is a huge question mark in terms of how he will fair in the future. I give him 50/50- 50% he will be a reliable outfielder who would start on most teams, and 50% he will be a 4th outfielder…
Ziggy- Agreed. Good reliever. Solid numbers, able to come out and pitch 2-3 innings often.
Crosby- Worse. Unless he somehow decides that he’s going to come out and use his contract year/lack of backing by management as motivation. Maybe he’ll even learn what a slider is! And not swing at it when it’s 2 feet off the plate…

by stranahanahan on Dec 23, 2008 5:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

ok ill give it a shot

Chavez – will be an above average third basemen but season will be derailed by injuries…again
Buck – he will be legit. i think he fixed whatever was bothering him most of last season and is now ready to take off. IMO, i think the real reason he regressed this year was the short hair. He wasn’t comfortable, maybe he was too cold. But now that the shag is back, he’s good to go.
Sweeney – I am also in the Sweeney fan club. He is legit .300 hitter with gap power for now with the chance to develop some real hr (15-20) power down the road. Great arm, plays a good CF, great CO. Will be a solid #2 hitter for a long time.
Ziggy – solid-to-good reliever. Can work 7th and 8th. As long as he keeps his GB% up, will be a great set up man/late-inning reliever
Crosby – better but not great. if he ever could get motivated, now is the time. He knows he’s on the verge of never geting a chance to start again, plus he’s in a contract year. He’s looking for like a future end-of-the-bench player unless he turns it around. If he bounces back at all, some team will give him a chance saying “he’s always had talent. he just needs a change out scenery and he’ll finally break out.” As much as I dislike him and how overhyped he was (thanks peter gammons), I sure do hope he’ll find a way to not suck.

"I think people in this state like BOTH teams," proclaims Nick Aliotti, the Ducks' defensive coordinator. "Except for our hard-core fans, I don't think most Duck fans would have been terribly upset to see Oregon State going to the Rose Bowl."

Another reason he needs to go.

by diehardoaklandfan22 on Dec 23, 2008 5:34 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

my take

Chavez — has a career year that falls short of being fantastic because he misses games (28 HRs, 87 RBIs)
Buck — 18 HRs, 88 RBIs, 36 dbls, 5 triples, .282
Sweeney — 11 HRs, 69 RBIs, 32 dbls, 8 triples, .291
Ziggy — 38 HLDs or 31 Saves
Crosby — .275, 23 HRs, 36 dbls, 81dbls, 1 triple

:)

"He's pretty nasty," Gardenhire said. "The last pitch to Harris, we went and watched it, it's on the black. It cut the outside corner of the plate, the tip of it, and that's pretty nasty."
(Ron Gardenhire on Brad Ziegler)

by catfish hunter on Dec 23, 2008 5:51 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

there is no way crosby hits .275 in the major leagues

it would be close in AA

"I think people in this state like BOTH teams," proclaims Nick Aliotti, the Ducks' defensive coordinator. "Except for our hard-core fans, I don't think most Duck fans would have been terribly upset to see Oregon State going to the Rose Bowl."

Another reason he needs to go.

by diehardoaklandfan22 on Dec 23, 2008 5:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

um, 81 RBIs, not DBLS

"He's pretty nasty," Gardenhire said. "The last pitch to Harris, we went and watched it, it's on the black. It cut the outside corner of the plate, the tip of it, and that's pretty nasty."
(Ron Gardenhire on Brad Ziegler)

by catfish hunter on Dec 23, 2008 5:52 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

bear88

I am right there with you dude. do we sign a FA 1b and limit barton’s development or do we risk barton hitting .207 at the end of may and no legit FA available (which means hananahan will be manning 1st!!)

that's gold jerry, gold!!!

by 9Custs on Dec 23, 2008 10:11 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Or you move Chavez to first

And make a deal for Adrian Beltre. By the end of May, I figure Seattle will be something like 10-40 so they’d probably make the move.

by thejd44 on Dec 24, 2008 9:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

how about we buy the remainder of alex smith's contract form the 49ers...

and teach him to play first base?

he’s a pretty natural looking athlete, and was hella dope in college.

by jaylikewise on Dec 24, 2008 10:08 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

and he would fit right in with the a's

he, like every athletic, cannot walk ten feet without injuring something

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Dec 24, 2008 11:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So then Crosby will never actually make it to home plate?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 24, 2008 12:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

isnt he a FA after this season?

no need to purchase the contract

"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra

by Cheezombie on Dec 24, 2008 10:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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