The current economics of MLB and Free agency

Very interesting...

I don’t trust Olney, but if he is at all in the ballpark here this is fantastic news for the A’s. Even if the budget is cut significantly, we know we can add at least $10 million and perhaps more like $20 million to the payroll. We could get some otherwise unavailable talent to be sure.

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Dec 20, 2008 12:59 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

If

you are going to go to all the trouble to write up a fanpost, at least use the freaking link tool that is provided. Link is here.

by mattman on Dec 20, 2008 1:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Tried it a couple times

and it didn’t work….sorry, I know it’s kind of a pain in the ass to copy/paste. Oh well, it just takes a second man. thanks for providing the autolink…

by mrod on Dec 20, 2008 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, sometimes it doesn't work for me

when I’m linking people to Youtube videos of semi-nude male Japanese pop singers.

"To this day and dating back 25 years, before every game he plays, Henderson stands completely naked in front of a full length locker room mirror and says, "Ricky’s the best," for several minutes."

by VORP is too nerdy on Dec 20, 2008 7:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If linking isn't working

Use tinyurl to create a simple url that doesn’t break AN

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Dec 20, 2008 7:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Dec 21, 2008 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I suppose then

that the exceptions to this rule are:

C.C.
A..J.
Teixeira

Maybe Manny too?

"RIP: UserID: 553"

by Masaryk on Dec 20, 2008 1:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Even Manny might be eating some crow

because of the fact that there only so may teams that can afford to bid for his services and even then, there is still no guaranteee that he is gonna get crazy money…. If there were more potential suitors for Manny his price would go up but it’s not going to at this point. Tex is the only postion guy this year that is gonna get sick money….everyone else is gonna have to take less years and less money until things bouce bacl economically.

by mrod on Dec 20, 2008 1:38 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

and CC didn’t get sick money?

by mattman on Dec 20, 2008 1:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

A.J.

Got sick money for his health history and stats…..
NYY overpaid…..but they believed they HAD to…..they certainly have the means.
Manny, I don’t know? I think he will not get many years attached to his contract, but I fully expect
that the value per year will be in line with Tex….He will get close to Tex $$$$

"RIP: UserID: 553"

by Masaryk on Dec 20, 2008 2:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

position player, was the deliniator

by theblackpearl on Dec 20, 2008 5:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

that's what I was saying, or at least trying to get across. thanks blackpearl

by mrod on Dec 20, 2008 5:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I loved his quote

“Gas is up, and so am I!”

Unfortunately, Manny, gas is down…

"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL

by oblique on Dec 20, 2008 3:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The perfect time to convince Dunn or Burrell they should sign a 2-year deal

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Dec 20, 2008 2:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Here is the thing that most people dont talk about though

7 Million Now is like having 12 million in 2006. Its probably even more then that because cash is king in this economy. The thing that amazes me is that Property, gas, homes and cars are all cheaper but some sporting event tickets are going up. Without home equity (which most people lost recently) and the way that the credit market is moving, I dont see how player saleries are going to stay the same or go up.I think Less middle class familys are going to be able to drop a few hundred bucks on a sporting event. Baseball , unlike other sports needs the middle class casual fan and I just dont see it at the current prices.

But like I said above, those millions are worth soooooo much more right now then they ever have been. Im not sure if its because we are numb to the contracts that these guys are getting or its just numbers that we read about on the internet or the sports page but these guys are making sinful ammounts of cash to play a little boys game as a grown man. In the end, the minimum salary for these players is 10 times more then the average American houselhold makes a year, so I for one dont feel bad for these guys having to take a small pay cut.

by asfaninpismobeach on Dec 20, 2008 4:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

hmmm

I expect that attendance will drop but that the TV market will rise.

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Dec 20, 2008 7:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Trust me pismo...

I don’t feel sorry for any of em’………….not one bit.

I just love the game!

by mrod on Dec 20, 2008 5:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

If the A's could just keep Holliday, all would make sense

in this crazy world/offseason. I’m bummed at the latest Tex rumors, because he will establish the market for Holliday as much as anyone will. I figure if Holliday goes for $20mil/year, the A’s actually CAN keep him as a centerpiece, but if it gets into the realm of 22, 24, 26…the A’s will just have to say goodbye.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 20, 2008 6:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Why would the A's say goodbye to Holliday at $26M if he's actually worth that?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 20, 2008 7:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

there comes a point where it just becomes too much,

he’s not really worth that anyway

by mattman on Dec 20, 2008 7:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sure then why be "bummed" about it? Why not laugh at the stupid team that signed him for that?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 20, 2008 7:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That depends

People have been trying to figure out how much 1 Win Above Replacement is worth in FA dollars for years, because the belief is there is a way to judge if a player is “worth” his contract. I’ve seen the value of 1 WAR vary from $4-5 million and land at a lot of points in-between. If Holliday plays at a 6 WAR level every year and the actual value of 1 WAR is $4 million then $26 million annual would be an over-pay (6 X 4 = 24). If the actual value of 1 WAR is $5 million then $26 million is a bargain (6 X 5 = 30).

So if at the end of a 5 year deal produces the equivalent of $150 million in value (5 X 30) and you’re only paying him $130 million (5 X 26) then you’ve come out well ahead on the deal.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 20, 2008 7:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You have to factor in opportunity costs when signing a free agent.

The most efficient $/win route is just having a team full of 300K rookies/young players a la the Florida Marlins in 2006…. but that won’t get you a championship.

What is my point here? I forgot.

"To this day and dating back 25 years, before every game he plays, Henderson stands completely naked in front of a full length locker room mirror and says, "Ricky’s the best," for several minutes."

by VORP is too nerdy on Dec 20, 2008 7:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Your point was that then Jeff Loria would make you Employee of the Month.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 20, 2008 9:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Er, the $4-5 million number is only for free agents

It’s largely pointless to observe that you can match their production for less with pre-FA players. The problem is, you can’t go out and sign pre-FA players.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Dec 21, 2008 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Or would it be better to spread the wealth and get

a few players at about 1 WAR.

by mattman on Dec 20, 2008 7:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Unfortunately then you're maxed out at 9 Wins above replacement or maybe 62 Wins

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 20, 2008 8:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

One thing you're forgetting there

Is that, typically, the cost per WAR goes up about 10% every season. So say it’s $4.5 million in 2008 (splitting the difference of your numbers), it’s almost $5 mil in 2009, about $5.5 in 2010, a little over $6 in 2011 and so on. It’s not a flat number over the life of the contract.

Now, this changes if the cost per win actually goes down (and it could). But, generally speaking, $26 mil for 5 or 6 years isn’t much of an overpay (factoring regression along with inflation). Assuming a half win of regression for each year of a 5-year extension (but let’s say he’s still 6 WAR in 2009), he should get a 5 year/$145 million (and change) deal. That’s about $29 mil a year. Not too far off from your numbers, actually. Getting him at 5×26 is probably a fair deal, since the 10% inflation number likely won’t hold for at least a year.

Might even be able to get him at a little bit less if he sees this year’s market and thinks something like 5 × 23 is the best he can do.

by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2008 3:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He's worth almost that much

At least at pre-economic collapse levels of salary.

by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2008 3:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

6 years at 22mill per year

also works out out to 132 miilion over the life of a contract. If you ask me that is a very competitive offer…….of course I’m not holliday’s agent either.

by mrod on Dec 21, 2008 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well look at it this way, Nico.

If Holliday is making 13.5 million now then making anywhere between 20-22 million per year starting in 2010 is quite a hefty raise. And, I still think that is territory the A’s would be able to manage if they are commited to it.

I keep going back to grover’s post about this a couple weeks back and it still absolutley makes sense. But, Beane and Co. ought to start putting the screws to Holliday’s camp now and see if they can get him interested or at least get him thinking about it……..of course, until the off season plays out with FA’s and possible trade(s) then we’ll just have to wait and see.

by mrod on Dec 21, 2008 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I still don't understand the argument about this situation somehow making Holliday more affordable

He’s the same age as Teixeira, a better hitter, a comparable fielder, plays a position more toward the middle of the defensive spectrum, he’s also represented by Boras …

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 22, 2008 10:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I realize that mb

I’m just putting a what if scenario out there, being optimistic, rather. I have said all along that I prefer Holliday to Tex and he certainly will make a shitload of cash. And in my opinion, he is the better player. But the A’s have Holliday before the season has even started. The Halos did not have Tex till half the season was over already.

It would not hurt the A’s to at least start talking to Holliday “now” about an extension. What if the economy continues to plummet and Holliday waits till next year? Does it mean he gets the kind of money he was maybe originally thinking he could get? Or does he have to eat a shit sandwich and settle for less because the money just isn’t there?

I realize that teams such as the Yanks, Sox, Mets, and Angels etc… are almost sure to have money available somewhere, but no one knows where things are headed and “anything” could happen. Finally, Scott Boras or not, Holliday is the one who will ultimately decide where he ends up. I’m just crossing my fingers that he stays an Athletic.

by mrod on Dec 22, 2008 10:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

so, you're hoping that Holliday is stupid?

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 22, 2008 12:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Getting paid lots of money to live in the Bay Area,

play for a smart organization, and play for a team that, with him, should be a perennial contender, doesn’t seem that dumb to me.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 22, 2008 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

is all of that worth $100M?

‘Cuz that’s about what your numbers suggest he’d have to cede to sign with Oakland (I’m presuming that Beane wouldn’t guarantee more than 5 years, at your $20M per; given inflation, I’m sure he tops whatever Teixeira gets this year).

Sure, there’s only one Bay Area; but there’s another team in the Bay Area with a better revenue-generating stadium, whose competitiveness (in a weaker division) would be at least equal to the A’s with Holliday. And there’s plenty of other smart, contending organizations.

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 22, 2008 12:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Way to ruin the Holliday spirit!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 22, 2008 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure 5/100 will be Beane's max

Whether his best offer will be competitive with other teams, I don’t know.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 22, 2008 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

what would your guess be for Beane's max offer?

Me, I don’t think he’ll even make one.

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 22, 2008 2:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Somewhere in the 6/120 to 6/130 range?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 22, 2008 2:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

and do you think that'd be anywhere near enough to competitive for Beane to bother with offering?

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 22, 2008 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Beane was willing to give Giambi 6 years, I imagine he'd go at least that long for Holliday

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 22, 2008 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

so, what's your guess for Beane's max offer?

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 22, 2008 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If Tex signs for 8 years, I don't see how Holliday gets a shorter deal

And if the economy picks up in the next 12 months then I could see someone (Yankees, Red Sox) maybe going longer.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 22, 2008 2:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I think "we're" over-emphasizing 2008 comparables and under-valuing impact of The Economy.

If things continue to go south at the current brisk clip, Holliday may hafta ask for a federal bailout. And then there’s how Holliday performs in the local elephants’ graveyard, where home runs go to die.

With the major variables currently unknown, what was the question again?

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Dec 22, 2008 3:45 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

So to actually answer your question

If Beane isn’t willing to match years and come close to the dollars Tex signs for he shouldn’t waste his time making a bid.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 22, 2008 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I would go after Holliday in a different way

There is a very real risk, and I’m sure Holliday knows it (Boras probably wouldn’t acknowledge it) that the market for Holliday will be weak next year. It is also no guarantee how Holliday will hit in the American League and how his counting stats will look with 81 games at the Coli.
I would offer Holliday a 2 year extension at $23 million , with a $3 million buyout after the second year. That helps Holliday and Boras because they then get their pick of two years to test the market.
And the A’s get one or maybe two of Holliday’s peak production years at a fair price.

They're called RUNS for a reason.

by connie mack on Dec 22, 2008 4:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You can also make a midseason offer,

making it clear that your end of season offer won’t be as high (total $, or annual money, or number of years). If the midseason offer is very good, be it 2/46 or 6/140 or 8/170, by turning it down Holliday risks that the market won’t be all he hopes (and it will have been the best offer) or that he gets injured in the second half of the season.

By offering him a good bird in the hand and making it clear that it’s the only 8-year offer he’ll get from you, or the only 23mil/year offer, or whatever, then if he likes Oakland he may consider it – especially if it’s a good offer.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 22, 2008 5:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Why would he think that none of the Red Sox, Yankees, Mets,

Angels or Dodgers would top that offer when they all need a LF beginning in 2010?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 22, 2008 7:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

because the market could suck next year

due to the economy. There is also a risk that he is exposed as an average left fielder who hit well at home in Colorado. If he ends up not as good as he thinks he is, he banked $46 million. If he ends up as good or better than he thinks he is, then he pays off the $3 million and hits the market when the economy is on the rebound.

They're called RUNS for a reason.

by connie mack on Dec 23, 2008 9:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

There's also geography and other factors

Teixeira wants to be in the East Coast (thankfully); some guys prefer the West Coast. The A’s are known to be a professionally run organization with a happy clubhouse; some of the teams on WC’s list do not meet that description. And so on.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 23, 2008 10:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I think he'd prefer Yankees or Angels to A's for non-money

considerations. But he’ll test FA and sign the best offer.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 23, 2008 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

no offense monkeyball

but that remark was pretty fucking stupid….

Merry Christmas………no banana for you (pri)mate.

by mrod on Dec 22, 2008 9:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

in response to your comment of

“So you’re hoping that Holliday is stupid?”……

by mrod on Dec 22, 2008 9:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I think it's unrealistic to expect Holliday to sign with the A's before testing FA for

anything less 25% more than he thinks he can get at FA.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 22, 2008 10:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

They may have to take a paycut, but...

…they’re still being paid handsomely and are still making their mortgage and Jag payments, so I feel no reason to feel sorry for them.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Dec 21, 2008 3:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Why do people say this as if anybody actually IS feeling sorry for them?

by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2008 3:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

well i certainly feel bad for them

some professional athletes are barely scraping by and are unable to feed their families

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Dec 21, 2008 4:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Can't he just attack them with fresh fruit?

See how I combine Sprewell’s legal history with Monty Python in one sentence?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 21, 2008 4:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You linked to FR last night

and no one has berated you as of yet. How did something like that slip under the radar?

by LowcountryJoe on Dec 22, 2008 11:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Many fans seem to consider it such a great injustice...

…whenever a player has to take a pay cut or sign for less than their asking price.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Dec 22, 2008 12:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, I want players to get what the market demands they get

I don’t feel sorry for them if they get a million fewer dollars, but I also think they deserve what they get because they are, basically, irreplaceable.

by thejd44 on Dec 22, 2008 9:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Briliant!

by mrod on Dec 21, 2008 7:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

this is probably old news to most but I had not seen it yet

Long list of FA’s available-some signed already of course-but some interesting commentary.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;ylt=Apa1FjYeqR1YlVuJe8Ef.ARvLYF?slug=jp-freeagenttracker111008&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

by mrod on Dec 21, 2008 10:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

sorry

stupid link format is not working for me

by mrod on Dec 21, 2008 10:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

here ya go

link thing can be annoying. i think this is what you wanted

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Dec 22, 2008 11:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

From that list, Randy Wolf and Freddy Garcia intrigue me

Wolf for what he can do, and Garcia only if he’s a cheap option to see if he can still do it.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 22, 2008 11:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd rather go after Brad Penny

If we’re going the “sign cheap with incentives if you prove you can actually do it” route.

by mikev on Dec 22, 2008 2:58 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

I could see Penny being horrible

Though the flip side is that the same can be said of Garcia and Randy Wolf hasn’t been all that great for a few years.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 22, 2008 5:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i could see penny being horrible

but i could also see him being awesome

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Dec 22, 2008 6:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

True dat

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 22, 2008 6:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

This

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 22, 2008 7:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Dis

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 23, 2008 7:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

"Dis 'n dat" ~ Nick Swisher

Peppermint Stick

by Ice Cream on Dec 23, 2008 2:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't see Freddy Garcia being good if he's throwing 85 mph still

by thejd44 on Dec 22, 2008 9:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

thanks travdog6!

by mrod on Dec 22, 2008 10:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

no problem mrod

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Dec 22, 2008 10:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs