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Frank Wren blacklists Kinzer and WMG

Stranahanahan thinks this deserves it's own fanpost, so darn it we're giving it it's own fanpost!

 

Linkovitch Chimofsky.

 

And, the important quotes from one Mr. Frank Wren, Atlanta Braves General Manager:

"We don't have any intention of doing business with them, and they've been notified of that,''

and then....

"When you can't trust who you're doing business with, you can't do business with them. It's plain and simple.''

 

Finally, from this LA Times link we get this:

When WIFN talk show host Bill Shanks prefaced a question by saying that he knew Wren couldn't burn bridges with Kinzer and Tellem, Wren interjected, "That bridge is gone. I don't have to worry about burning it. The bridge is gone."

 

Star-divide

So what's to be gained from this?  I dunno, really.

 

I think it's painfully obvious that Kinzer was very unethical in his dealings with Atlanta, to the point that Wren actually sent a signed term sheet (contract) to Kinzer.  Perhaps not so much with Oakland, although the appearance of using Oakland to get a 4th year into Furcal's contract seems to have worked.

 

Anyway, on to the blacklisting bit.  I wonder what (any?) ramifications this will have in MLB.  Wasserman Media Group's baseball division is headed by Arn Tellem represents a whole heap of players -- including Jason Giambi, for those who still think he should come back to Oakland -- and there is the potential for teams to be less likely to negotiate with WMG now.  At the same time, there's been nothing to show that WMG had anything to do with what happened other than employ Kinzer.  Maybe guys who have Kinzer representing them will look elsewhere now?  Maybe not -- after all, he did get Furcal his money, his years, and his desired location.

 

How does AN think this will play out in future negotiations with players?

1 recs  |  Comment 69 comments

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Its not the A's style to do it out in the public,

but one has to ask if the A’s are thinking something simular in private. If thats true, then no Giambi for the A’s. They do not represent any current A’s, only Former A/Free Agent Frank Thomas.

facepalm.jpg

by Zonis on Dec 18, 2008 2:30 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

If even half of what's been reported is true

I sure hope Beane & the A’s follow suit. Not that I care if they do it publicly or not, but the way Kinzer handled this from the beginning was remarkably sketchy at best and shouldn’t be encouraged, especially if it works out in the end.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Dec 18, 2008 2:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Kinzer seemed in over his head from the beginning here.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 18, 2008 3:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Further comments from Braves President John Schuerholz

Link

This is a bold move by the Braves to go public like this, but if I was a young ballplayer looking to sign an agnet, I would think twice about hiring these guys now that I know that teams are reluctant (or in the Braves case unwilling) to work with them.

by AsFanInLA on Dec 18, 2008 2:42 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Grampa Lew (no, not "ours"), wherever he rests, must be very disappointed by this development.

Lew’s agents were always conniving, cutthroat SOB’s, but they never let themselves become the story, and always kept the bloodshed behind closed doors.

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 18, 2008 2:55 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

As long as they each decide independently to do it, anyone can refuse to deal with anyone else.

Q — do sports agents not have a trade group with a Code of Conduct? There are certain minimum decencies teams and agents ought to be able to expect from each other. Executive recruiters, for example, have such a thing.

Or is that too Jerry Maguire?

BTW, I don’t feel all that bad for the Braves. They certainly let the A’s carry their water, possibly in cahoots with Kinzer (“mystery team”), until the eleventh-hour-and-thirty-minutes. The real blunder I see was that the Sweet-Furcals didn’t tell Wren they were going to shop his offer back to ElLay. The Braves thought they were the catbirds, and then cried fowl.

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Dec 18, 2008 3:58 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

It's the stuff of Contracts Law finals. At what point, if any (of course) is there a legally enforceable deal?

Verbal agreement? Sigs on the term sheet? Sigs on the full document? What if it’s contingent on passing a physical — can you continue to shop until the docs opine? My guess (that class was a looong time ago) is that since it’s a multi-year K, it needs a writing, although the term sheet can probably do the trick, esp if it incorps the full doc by reference.

And then there’s the difference betw law and good business practice — which is why it’s a good idea to enshrine the ethical standards via an agreed trade group standard. .

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Dec 18, 2008 4:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Law vs. good business practice

This is the real point, as I don’t think the Braves are claiming they had a legally enforceable deal. They’re claiming that Kinzer violated the norms of their industry.

Thanks for tomorrow 'cause I've had enough

by andeux on Dec 18, 2008 5:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In general, I think verbal contracts are enforceable

but only when there is a third party witness. Otherwise it’s too difficult to assess whether or not there was truly a “meeting of the minds” – on the same page at the same time. The law varies state to state, IIRC, but I think that’s the basic principle in CA and many states.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 18, 2008 5:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And when I say "verbal" I actually mean "oral"

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 18, 2008 5:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

C'mon PT -- refresh us on the statute of frauds implications here.

The law will vary by state and generally favors enforceability of non-written stuff, but there are exceptions, including Ks that can’t be performed in one year, iirc. Whole careers are founded on legal minutiae like this, and I’m not current, but I’m guessing that something like the term sheet would be required for strict legal enforceability.

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Dec 18, 2008 5:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Contracts is 2nd semester

Haven’t covered it yet… other than a few random topics like waiver clauses that crop up in other courses.

If Wikipedia is correct, however, and this is probably a common enough topic to rely on it, contracts of longer than one year’s duration have to be in writing. I’d expect that the CBA says the same.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Dec 18, 2008 6:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wikipedia's right on this

Statute of Frauds would be one (of many) ways to prevent the Braves from enforcing an oral agreement for a personal-services contract.

Even a term sheet likely wouldn’t do it, as it would probably contain language limiting it’s effectiveness (and might not even be signed by Furcal).

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Dec 18, 2008 6:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No...

Why would you think that?

I mean, I suppose it could happen… I am interested in employment law… but the biz is so difficult to get into that I’m not going to waste my limited job-search time trying to run down a position immediately.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Dec 18, 2008 11:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ks that can’t be performed in one year?

So, for someone like Cust, he could pull a Furcal up to 200 times a year without jeopardy?

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 19, 2008 10:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Player agreements with teams are all encompassed by the Collective Bargaining Agreement

between the MLBPA and MLB. The whole system of signing a player is defined by the union contract.

I suppose the basic principles of contract law inform it, but any dispute is going to be judged by an arbitrator, not by a court of law. And the question will be, “What does the CBA say?” not “What does common law say?”

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Dec 18, 2008 8:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

True, but the CBA requires all contracts to be submitted in writing to the Commissioner's office

to be ratified before they become binding. There’s no possible way that the Braves would have any kind of claim under the CBA.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Dec 18, 2008 11:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Impressive

I’ve never seen a rant like this from a GM about how an agent handled himself in a negotiation. Never. Underhanded tactics get used, sure, but normally both sides get over it, out of pragmatism if nothing else. This kind of public boycott declaration— I mean, it’s quite effective at ensuring that the Braves won’t go back on their word, because they’ll look like absolute fools if they do.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Dec 18, 2008 4:08 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Recently on KNBR..

Gnats GM Brian “Zito FTW” Sabean remarked that the GM’s are scrutinized to the nth degree for any hint of collusion with FAs. Seems stupid, given that Agents can readily exploit this little mandate during negotiations with no accountability whatosoever. Worst case so far seems to be in Kinzer, who probably hyped up/falsified stories to get his client what he wanted. This is probably one of the reason why GMs are so silent in negotiations unless its a foregone conclusion, but sure can make them look bad or stupid.

"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."

"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff

"Joe Morgan's going to think Beane wrote the movie too..." -whitshoes40

by ST on Dec 18, 2008 4:29 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Teams can't collude to not sign players

whether it’s to drive prices down or to blackball somebody from the game. But is there a rule saying they won’t do business with a particular agent or group of them?

by thejd44 on Dec 18, 2008 4:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why should there be?

“Past actions have led me not to fully trust you and I don’t want to negotiate with people I don’t trust.” That’s not collusion; that’s common sense.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 18, 2008 5:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It would be tough to prove collusion without wiretap or secret recordings.

Default answer whan questioned; “We’re not interested in the player’s [let’s call him Bonds as an example] services at this time or for what he’s asking for.” Done. You cannot prove motive/intent even when it looks fishy on the outside.

by LowcountryJoe on Dec 18, 2008 6:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If every client from other agencies was moving forward,

while every client from WMG were garnering no interest from anyone, it might look sufficiently suspicious – especially if there were, say, 3 WMG clients all hearing “no thanks” from everyone. If it were just Giambi, I don’t think you could do anything about it because he’s 38, a poor fielder, etc. There’s always a good reason around any one player, but a pattern could look fishy pretty quickly.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 18, 2008 6:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not hostile to collsion, myself

Discrimination is a natural state of affairs. Discrimination is also not a dirty word; it simply means favoring something over another. I just happen to discriminate against the other 29 teams in baseball by chosing the Athletics as the team I enjoy folling

Collusion is a discriminatory act and not everyone has to join into the collusive arrangement. If there are rogue actors seeking to improve their own lot, then players that are colluded against will have some opportunities open to them.

A collusive arrangement cannot be maintained indefinitely. Someone will eventually cave in if the player being discriminated still can bring value to the table for what he is asking for in compensation

by LowcountryJoe on Dec 18, 2008 6:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yay for discrimination!!!!

That was Cindi.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 18, 2008 7:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, hooray for choice.

Think about it; don’t you discriminate when picking your friends? Doesn’t a hiring manager discriminate against one job suitor over another when when a hiring decision is made? The only difference is what factors go into making the decisions…and even then, you cannot contend to know the motives of someone whose decision it is to make. All one can do is speculate.

Now I think I’m going to discriminate against the Beck’s Dark in my fridge by choosing the Full Moon Winter Ale. In fact, the Beck’s is going to sit until the Winter Ale is finished…it’s full scale collusion by my taste buds.

by LowcountryJoe on Dec 18, 2008 7:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The owners signed a legal contract agreeing not to collude

That’s why they can’t collude.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Dec 18, 2008 8:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And furthermore it was

the owners who insisted on that legal contract forbidding collusion.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Dec 19, 2008 3:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure

but only because it helps them keep their anti-trust exemption.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Dec 19, 2008 10:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's refreshing to know that no matter how obvious the lessons of history are,

some members of the public will still be pigheaded, stubborn, and/or ideologically blinded enough to ignore them.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Dec 18, 2008 11:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What's refreshing is that I can discuss my ideology

in an open society with out the majority of it — or even a tiny fraction of it in the form of a controlling ‘leadership’ — colluding to have me purged from that society. Am I pig headed and stubborn? You bet. And it’s not like I’m espousing something really perverted here like one might find on a NAMBLA web site.

by LowcountryJoe on Dec 19, 2008 2:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Arn Tellem is a very good agent

I would not be surprised to see Kinzer lose his job at WMG over this. And he should.

While verbal agreements aren’t legally binding, to make one, to tell the team to send the signed paperwork, and then to back out for no justifiable reason, is really unacceptable, bush league behavior. It’s the kind of thing that should cost Kinzer is job as an agent. And it wouldn’t surprise me if it did.

Atlanta might be the only team to refuse to do business with them publicly, but I have no doubt that other teams are paying attention to this.

by thejd44 on Dec 18, 2008 4:30 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Fire Kinzer Now!!!

That actually is what I was thinking.

Assuming Kinzer’s actions are not representative of that agency,‘s ethics and practices, the easiest thing to do would be to kan Kinzer. They can’t afford to have teams publicly or privately boycott them.

"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."

-Charles Manson

by kaweahkaweah on Dec 18, 2008 4:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed - I've never heard bad things about Tellem,

and he’s been around a while. WMG should show Kinzer the door.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 18, 2008 5:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Simple enough....

the Braves have only to inform the agency that they will not deal with Kinzer.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Dec 18, 2008 6:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Publicly at least for now

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 18, 2008 9:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There ya go!

Hoping someone would post all this.
You know, I think Beane has more class than to publicly endorse an opinion on these guys, but I can tell you that Beane and company will think twice next time they deal with Kinzer or WMG as a whole. As will other teams. If teams have more than one guy on their radar, they’re not going to sit around and play tummy sticks with Kinzer when they know he’ll drag this shit out as long as possible. They’ll pounce on the other guy hoping for some lovin’ back.
Kinzer is gonna lose some clients soon, that’s for sure…

by stranahanahan on Dec 18, 2008 5:19 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

If Tellem inquires about starting discussions over Giambi,

Beane should answer, “Hmm…Does Kinzer still work for you guys?”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 18, 2008 5:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

For sure! Markets...

Kinzer is gonna lose some clients soon, that’s for sure…

…do work.

by LowcountryJoe on Dec 18, 2008 5:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sometimes... maybe.

After all, he hasn’t lost any clients yet. And he got Furcal just about everything he wanted.

As far as that goes, markets may work contrary to the way you want them to.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Dec 18, 2008 6:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

As evidence
Tellem, the lead agent in the Wasserman Media Group, released a seven-point e-mail statement Thursday night, saying in part: "Losing out on an all-star player like Furcal is always disappointing, and we understand the Braves’ frustration with the outcome of this negotiation, but it does not change in any way the fact that we conducted ourselves with integrity and complied with all rules of Major League Baseball throughout this process."

From the AJC article linked above

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Dec 18, 2008 6:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They DO...

As far as that goes, markets may work contrary to the way you want them to.

…work! That’s not even the issue. The RESULTS of the market playing out are what may (or may not) be contrary to how I wish them to be.

by LowcountryJoe on Dec 18, 2008 6:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok,

If you define Kinzer being supported by his boss and not losing any clients as the markets working, and you define Kinzer being fired as the markets working, then yes. The markets work.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Dec 18, 2008 7:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I see the release differently

Of course they aren’t going to release a statement saying, “We are very unhappy with our colleague and are considering his termination.” The fact that they issued a seven-point email about it says far more than does the content of the seven points. The agency doth protest too much, methinks.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 18, 2008 7:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Doth is an underused word. I want to bring it back.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 18, 2008 9:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why dothen't you?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 18, 2008 10:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Protest to who?

If they wanted to fire him, they’d just do it. If they didn’t think he did anything wrong they’d stay silent. If they know he did something wrong and want to keep him, they try to spin it.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Dec 18, 2008 11:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Someone

needs to create firepaulkinzer.com and make it their responsibility to “suggest” the firing of Kinzer.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Dec 18, 2008 5:44 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

it's available

on godaddy.com

gooooooooooo

which brings up an interesting point – probably should buy the rights to www.firealeaiactaest.com

yknow. just in case i should fall foul of a group of internerds

BB should send scouts to watch cricket players.

by alea iacta est on Dec 18, 2008 8:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If Kinzer's a rain-maker, he'll get lots of latitude.

It’s the golden rule of the professions. No idea how important his particular revenue is to that firm, but it’ll be a factor in how much they tolerate, vs. behind-the-scenes client groveling to try and make things right via contrition and promises of reformed business methods,

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Dec 18, 2008 5:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I had never heard of him until this Winter,

So I wonder how big a name he is there. (“Me hearing of someone” being a stunningly reliable barometer of anyone’s importance to a company.)

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 18, 2008 6:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not gonna do....what everybody THINKS I'm gonna do.....!!! *googly eyes*

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Dec 18, 2008 5:59 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

All this talk about Kinzer

Am I the only one who thinks the real culprit here is Furcal, not Kinzer?

Kinzer has to represent his client. If the client is being wishy-washy, saying he’s ready to sign and then backing out, it puts the agent in a tough position. Short of cutting Furcal loose as a client, what do all you Kinzer critics think Kinzer could have done differently?

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Dec 19, 2008 12:16 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Maybe.

My issue is this: did Kinzer / Furcal take the Braves’ offer, the term sheet, and show it to the Dodgers?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Dec 19, 2008 3:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This isn't the first time the Braves got worked by Furcal and his agent.

Back in 2005 his agent told then GM John Schuerholz he would get to make a counter offer only to see furcal sign with the dodgers before the Braves could get their counter offer. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. This doesnt mean his agent isn’t a bad. It means that the best indicator of future behaivor is past behavior.

Lets go A's

by Jackson_A on Dec 19, 2008 9:09 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

So that means I'll probably drink way too much tomorrow?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 19, 2008 11:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd say it's practically guaranteed ...

for you and me both …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 19, 2008 11:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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