Mariners send away Putz, Green in Zduriencik's first trade as GM
by Joey C. on Dec 11, 2008 10:39 AM PST
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PrintYeah, I know, it's an A's blog. But, hey, Seattle's in the division, right? And this deal surprised the heck out of me considering Putz was one of their only marquee players and Sean Green was (in my understanding) a highly-touted up-and-comer. They also send off Jeremy Reed and 2B Luis Valbuena, so... yeah.
Anyway, the Mariners get back Aaron Heilman, Endy Chavez, Jason Vargas, and 3 minor leaguers from the Mets. Keith Law tells me those prospects are OF Ezequiel Carrera, 1B Mike Carp, and RHP Maikel Cleto. Along with that, the M's get OF Franklin Gutierrez from the Indians.
Meanwhile, the Mets pick up 2 good bullpen arms in Putz and Green to compliment new closer F-Rod. The Indians snag RP Joe Smith from the Mets and Valbuena from the M's.
I'm no prospect expert, but it really seems like the Mets gave up nothing to acquire 2 very good relief pitchers. Someone who is a prospect expert (not named Keith Law): tell me how to feel about this one.
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I don't know much about the prospects
But the Mets gave up one of the best defensive OFs I’ve ever seen, a reliever who is just as good as Sean Green, another one who is better, and a bunch of nothing-special minor leaguers for an injury-prone now set-up man, a meh reliever, and a bad outfielder. I don’t see how this is a win for the Mets.
by thejd44 on Dec 11, 2008 10:52 AM PST reply actions
I'unno
Heilman used to be pretty good. Endy Chavez is a fine fourth OFer, but not much else. Then I looked to see if I should have heard of Jason Vargas. I didn’t find much. But the Mets get back a pretty damn good reliever when healthy, and a dude you don’t mind throwing out there in the middle innings when you need a quick DP. The bullpen was an issue for New York, so I think this was a pretty savvy trade for them; they didn’t give up anything.
I’m just glad I don’t have to see Putz pitching against the A’s anymore.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
You're severely underrating Endy Chavez
He’s so good defensively (or at least was a year or two ago, I assume he’s still great) that he could hit as poorly as Adam Everett and be a quality starting CF. He’s way better than a 4th OF.
by thejd44 on Dec 11, 2008 6:56 PM PST up reply actions
I'll admit, my thoughts of him are colored by Baseball Prospectus's take
Which isn’t overwhelmingly good. I suppose I’ll see enough of the guy next year that he’ll have a good chance of changing my mind.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
What's really scary is
that Ryan Rowland-Smith and Brandon Morrow (and Ryan Feierabend, although he might not make the rotation —-although the M’s as a rebuilding team should give him a longer cup of tea at the MLB level) are both flyball pitchers. And, they’re both pretty much near locks to be in the rotation.
And, an OF of Chavez-Gutierrez-Ichiro is one of the best defensive OF in baseball.
Not. Good.
Dude. This.
It's also one of the worst, if not the worst, hitting outfields in baseball
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I was in the middle of writing that when you posted it
Still, it’s perturbing that we can’t rely on the M’s to be run like jokers like Bavasi. He’d make sure his outfield was Raúl Ibañez, Emil Brown, and Butter Bean.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
I love Christina Kahrl's writing
but for whatever reason, she seems to underrate Endy.
I watched Endy quite a bit with the Mets. Carlos Beltran is one of the best defensive OFs in MLB. It’s a joy, a privilege, to watch him running after a flyball in the flyball. Endy Chavez is better than Beltran. When Endy was in the OF with Beltran, it sometimes seemed that it didn’t matter if the other OF was a potted fern.
And most Mets fans who’ve watched him quite a bit tend to think the same way, that Endy is better than Beltran.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Oh, yeah, Chavez is a better outfieler than Beltran
Not a better player by any means, and Beltran is good enough that the Mets can live without Chavez.
by thejd44 on Dec 13, 2008 1:08 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah OK
Putz is injury prone. Heilman is suckiness prone. If both Putz and Heilman rebound, Putz is clearly better than Heilman.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
plus heilman wanted to be traded, and was being a butthole about it
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 11, 2008 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
As an M's fan I love this deal.
Dr. Z translated the inflated value of a closer (and one with injury concerns, at that), a potential starting 2B in Valbuena (down the road), an easily duplicated MR, a decent glove no hit 4th outfielder for two of the best defensive outfielders in baseball (Gutierrez and Chavez), a potentially effective late inning arm (Heilman), a potential starting 1B (again, down the road) in Mike Carp, and three young minor leaguers with varying potentials.
I actually like the deal from every team’s perspective, but I believe the ultimate winner will be the M’s as I expect at least Carp and Maikel Cleto to pan out, and have hope that Gutierrez hits enough to be a fixture in the outfield for years to come.
Mike Carp isn't a potential starting 1b
Not unless you want Dan Johnson as your starting 1b. Carp is likely to pan out as a Dan Johnson type.
And if Heilman is a potentially effective late inning arm, Putz is a potentially best relief pitcher in MLB. Putz’ value isn’t because it is “inflated” by him being a closer. Putz’ value is because, if he is healthy, he’s one of the best relievers in MLB.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
You don't believe Putz' position as a closer inflates his value?
Perhaps I erred in not stating that Putz if healthy (which he appears to be) is indeed a dominant reliever, but his value would not be perceived the same if he hadn’t had been a closer to begin with. Is it right? No, but I believe that to be true…we saw it with Huston Street in the Holliday trade as well.
As far as Carp turning into Dan Johnson…in this case, you have to take into account what was there prior to Carp, which was a whole lot of nothing. 1B depth starts and ends with Bryan LaHair. That’s pathetic. I would also take Dan Johnson over Miguel Cairo.
For the Mariners, Mike Carp is most definately a potential starting 1B.
This "closers end up having
their value inflated because they are closers" meme is really overstated among the SABR community. Putz’ value is inflated, because at his best, he was one of the best relievers in MLB. Is his value higher since he pitched in the 9th inning instead of as a setup man? Yes, because closers pitch in higher leverage situations than set up man, despite all the whining from some SABR influenced fans about high lev innings in the 7th and 8th innings.
I’m not saying that Carp is worthless. If he becomes DJ, he has value, principally in being cheap, and preventing you from having to play Miguel Cairo. But, guys like that can be gotten essentially free. The Mariners could have signed Josh Phelps last season if they wanted for example. A ~105 OPS+ 1b / DH type is useful, but his main value is in being a cheap stopgap.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Closers typically don't pitch in higher leverage situations than set-up men
That’s the problem with a “Closer.” They usually don’t pitch when they actually should.
by thejd44 on Dec 11, 2008 6:58 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think I buy it
The whole reason your best reliever shouldn’t be the “closer” is because a lot of times, the 9th inning isn’t the inning where your best reliever should be in.
by thejd44 on Dec 13, 2008 1:09 PM PST up reply actions
You can also find leverage on BPro
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
I disagree
The Mariners have enough payroll that Mike Carp will never see playing time if the organization is run even half-decently, which clearly it is now.
www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.
I have to respectfully disagree
There is no reason that Mike Carp should not see playing time on a rebuilding club. There is no way to see what he can do unless you….I don’t know…give him ML ABs sometime in ’09.
Even on a large payroll team, if a team can get slots filled cheaply with productive players, they can spend on the superstars.
And you just don't get it, you keep it copacetic...
The only player the Mariners got that I actually like is Gutierrez
Although odds are good that they’ll get one or two more useful parts out of the rest. Still, seems like they took quantity over quality here.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
That was my thinking as well
Their minor league system is pretty piss-poor, yeah? I don’t see how this improves it that much.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
I wouldn't call it piss-poor
It’s full of high-upside players with severe defects which will probably keep them from being useful MLB players— Greg Halman, Michael Saunders, etc.
I’d definitely grade it in the bottom half of systems league-wide. Better than the Angels, though.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Angels still interested in Peavy
Hopefully Jake waives his NTC, so the Angels can surrender what’s left of their farm system.
Dude. This.
Lookout Landing's reactions
Looks like the reaction is generally positive among M’s fans. Then again, given the team’s track record, any trade that doesn’t make the team worse is cause for celebration.
Apparently, Franklin Gutierrez was the primary target.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
The M's have defense now
Ichiro, Chavez, Gutierrez, and Beltre? Damn. They don’t need that much defense….they should trade us Beltre. And does this trade mean they’re giving up on Wlad?
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Wlad was below replacement level last year. Downright horrible.
And, he’ll probably see some ABs somewhere, but he really shouldn’t.
Dude. This.
I'd love to score him on the cheap
He was pretty unlucky this season, although he also obviously wasn’t ready.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I like this deal for the M's.
Chavez and Gutierrez are sick defensively. Pair that with Ichiro in RF. This is scary. And, they shaved an insane amount of payroll with losing Putz and Ibanez.
I think Heilman might get flipped though. A good bullpen is useless for a rebuilding team. I have a feeling Heilman rebounds as a reliever, and then is flipped to a contender who needs pen help at the deadline.
I really am starting to NOT like this Zduriencik guy. First because I can’t spell, and secondly because he’s actually making smart moves. And thirdly because they stole Russell Branyan, who I wanted the A’s to sign.
For the sake of the A’s, I hope the M’s do NOT trade Beltre. Z will easily get a massive haul for him, and I really, really don’t like that idea.
Dude. This.
I don't know
I’m starting to get concerned about the Mariners extending him, and contending in 2010. They’re going to have a good foundation (Felix, Beltre, Ichiro, Gutierrez, Bedard), a GM who can find FAT, and oodles of available cash (Don’t forget Washburn’s coming off the books soon). If no one beats me to it, I might do a fanpost on Zd..cik, and why we should be concerned, next week.
Thank God they traded Adam Jones.
by Josh Deletchi on Dec 11, 2008 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
Bedard is a free agent in 2010
The Mariners should be looking to flip both him and Beltre for more prospects to rebuild their system.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
if they flip Bedard
it won’t be until the trade deadline so they can rebuild his value. Otherwise, they can at least let him walk and get 2 picks…if he is still Type A
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 11, 2008 2:13 PM PST up reply actions
I would say that was unlikely
but the Elias formula is so whack that it really wouldn’t surprise me at all no matter what he got classified as.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
There is next to no way he gets Type A unless he pitches for all of the 2009 season.
which, as we all know, isn’t that likely.
Dude. This.
that's how exactly how i felt, and hence why i would hang out to him until i think i'm getting max value
so thats either after he’s rebuilt his value or he walks and we get picks…then again i’m not the Mariners GM so who knows what will happen
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 11, 2008 6:00 PM PST up reply actions
And that Silva's still around for 3 more years.
And, I don’t think the M’s extend Beltre. Agent is Scott Boras, and the next big 3B FA besides Beltre (assuming Chipper Jones does not test the market next year), is Eric Chavez after the 2010 season.
Beltre will get a huge contract from someone on the market next offseason. I don’t think the M’s will be the team giving out that contract.
Dude. This.
YES YES YES YES YES YES
PUT HIM IN LEFT FIELD. PUT HIM IN LEFT FIELD ANGELS. DO IT DO IT.
Dude. This.
Must... make... Sawks... sign... Teixeira...
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
Agreed
But my gut tells me Tex don’t wanna play for a club that would struggle in AAA.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
eh not like the Angels are world beaters
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 11, 2008 6:00 PM PST up reply actions
I am popping champaigne if they sign the dart thrower.
My religion is A'slamic.
by WhoNeedsReligionWhenYaGotBaseball on Dec 11, 2008 1:14 PM PST up reply actions
but...
2:53pm: Stark says the Phillies “stepped up their efforts” for Ibanez. What’s more, Ibanez has been telling friends the Phils are his top choice.
:(
Dear Mr. Amaro, and the rest of the Phillies FO:
Raul Ibanez plays horrible defense. For those of you who are stat-challenged, just lookie…..
And, he really can’t hit lefties. With Ryan Howard as one of your best hitters, that could be a problem. You guys just won the WS. You can do better. So, please do all fans of non-Angels AL West teams a favor, and let the slegnA sign him.
Dude. This.
awesome blicks
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
Jeff and Jl are just awesome.
And I like excuses to post that thing, because its hilarious.
Dude. This.
MOAR LAWN DART!!!!11!!1!!11
"However, at Elias, I think they keep track of the amount of sunflower seeds spit in a dugout each night." - Brad Ziegler, 8/7/08
i must say
i have seen this clip on several posts, and i still enjoy watching it. everytime its posted, i must watch it at least five times just to be sure that a throw like that is possible.
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 11, 2008 6:01 PM PST up reply actions
Pat Burrell also plays bad D
As does Dunn. Depending on how much Ibanez, and Burrell, and Dunn, and Abreu, are each going to cost, Ibanez might very well be a decent signing.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
From what I hear, Ibanez is looking at getting more money than Burrell or Dunn
which is insane.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
3/30 mil
Your 2009 Athletics: Catch The Disease
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 12, 2008 5:35 AM PST up reply actions
That sounds insane
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
My dream scenario Tex signs with the Nats and the Halos settle for Raul Ibanez
Instead of a guy who plays gold glove D and hit .324 against us, (not to mention the only guy in what 3+ years to jack one off Ziegler) for a guy who hit .211 against us and plays crappy outfield. That would be my Christmas miracle!
"AN, Reducing Work Productivity since 2003", connie mack 11/06/08
YES YES YES YES
More Angels interest in Ibanez…
The Angels are also aggressively pursuing options for offense in case Teixeira signs elsewhere, with free-agent left fielder Raul Ibanez their top target.
Ibanez, who is being heavily pursued by Philadelphia, is 36, but he hit .286 with 23 homers and 110 runs batted in for last-place Seattle last season. He probably will command a deal in the three-year, $35-million range.
DO IT DO IT DO IT
Dude. This.
GOD YES
He’s like a 5-run upgrade for them.
For 3/35? Yes? Please? It would be lovely if they would agree to tie up another $12 million a year in dead money.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
It complements GMJ, Hunter as his defense declines, and whatever other bad signing they make.
Dude. This.
Hunter's defense is, at best, slightly above average
It’s been declining for 5 years now.
by thejd44 on Dec 13, 2008 1:10 PM PST up reply actions
Raul Ibanez ------> Phillies
Damn. It. Stupid move for the Phils.
Even the Mets would’ve been better, because then the M’s wouldn’t get a first round draft pick (K-Rod is higher ranked than Ibanez, so M’s would get 2nd round pick)
And you just don't get it, you keep it copacetic...
Unbelievable
Just a horrible decision. They’d better not start printing those 2009 playoff tickets just yet.
Whyyyyyyy could it not have been the Angels…
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
cuz they are gonna end up wih abreu
Your 2009 Athletics: Catch The Disease
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 12, 2008 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
I cannot wait to see the Ibanez press conference.
with Amaro and crew.
And you just don't get it, you keep it copacetic...
I wonder if the M's plan on giving Heilman a shot as a starter.
He wanted to start for the Mets.
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
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