Just a little ranting on my part
Funny enough, this started out as a Staturday piece!
Yeah, that focus didn't last long.
There are certain fundamental problems with the A’s current 40 man roster and if I were a muppet of greater patience I could sit back and wait for things to correct themselves. However, if I had that kind of patience I sincerely doubt I’d be the poster you all know and love/hate. Besides, it’s not as if Oakland’s FO is immune from making mistakes… I mean, Bobby Crosby is still on the books so I can’t just assume that the A’s are going to do the right thing. So allow me to share my opinion in how things should proceed.
The first thing I want to talk about is the current financial structure of the 25 man roster. As of today, the projected 2009 payroll sits at approximately $41 million. This is based on existing contracts, predicted settlements with the A’s arbitration eligible personnel and the fixed salaries due to players with less than three years of big league experience. $30.25 million of that $41 million is tied up in 5 players:
Eric Chavez
Mark Ellis
Bobby Crosby
Huston Street
Justin Duchscherer
Now, these 5 players are expected to play very prominent roles with the A’s in 2009. Duke will likely be asked to front the rotation while there’s a very good chance Street will resume the closer role. Chavez, Ellis and Crosby make up 3/4 of the starting infield. So at first glance it appears as if the A’s have at least invested their money in players who are expected to have full-time roles. Setting aside whatever arguments people might want to make regarding the various talent level and/or abilities of these 5 starters, I’d just like to point out that the A’s have 73% of their team payroll tied up in 5 guys who have had a Hell of a time staying healthy.
Ellis just had shoulder surgery and has only managed 2 full seasons of play in the past 6 years. Chavez hasn’t played a full season since 2005, that’s 3 years and at least as many surgeries ago. Duke has managed partial seasons the last 2 years. Crosby sucked in 2008 but at least he stayed relatively healthy all year, the first time that’s happened since his rookie season in 2004. Street had elbow issues in 2007 and a lingering groin injury that cost him stuff and the closer’s job in 2008. Individually, this might not be much of an issue but collectively these 5 players represent a highly questionable investment for the A’s.
So when I read stories about the A’s being hesitant to go after a big ticket free agent because they don’t want to direct such a large portion of their payroll towards 1 player I can’t help but wonder, how much is that worry justified? The A’s could go out and sign a player to a $20 million annual salary and that would still mean that nearly half of the 2009 payroll was tied up in players with poor health records. My advice to the team if they’re serious about pursuing a top tier free agent? Don’t sign a guy who’s a known health risk! (Yes Furcal, I’m looking at you and your surgically repaired back.) Pay extra for durability.
My next big issue is the actual make-up of the 40 man roster. The A’s currently have 38 spots filled and we know that they’re shopping for a free agent and have traditionally mined the Rule 5 draft for cheap talent, so I’m fine with there being 2 open slots on the 40 man roster. What I’m not fine with are the 11 outfielders taking up space on the 40 man roster. Really? 11 guys to cover 3 positions, sheesh. Compare that to the 12 players the A’s have on the 40 man to play Catcher, 1B, 2B, 3B, and SS. You don’t need that many outfielders, especially when the ones you’d prefer to earn starting roles are so young.
I’m sure most will agree with me when I say that the top of the pecking order includes (2009 age) Travis Buck (25) Jack Cust (30) Aaron Cunningham (23) Carlos Gonzalez (23) and Ryan Sweeney (24). There are lots of ways this combination could work itself out but the basics are this: The A’s will want Gonzalez and Cunningham to play full time and if that’s not going to happen in Oakland then it will happen in Sacramento. If Cunningham and Gonzalez are in Sac then that makes Sweeney the starting CF by default, with Buck and Cust in the corners. This is where things get interesting. Sweeney in CF, Cust in RF isn’t a great defensive alignment. In 2008 the A’s often used Rajai Davis as a defensive substitute in the later innings to replace Cust, however they slipped Davis into CF and bumped Sweeney to RF. While Sweeney can get by in CF he’s better suited to play a corner. I think it’s safe to say that any 2009 25 man roster combination that makes Cust a starting outfielder is going to include a defensive replacement for the later innings. It makes sense that if we go on the assumption that Sweeney is the starting CF that our defensive substitute is a good enough outfielder to play CF, allowing Geren to bump Sweeney to a corner spot and upgrading the defense at two spots in the late innings.
There are 6 other outfielders on the 40 man roster and Javier Herrera and Richie Robnett don’t even belong in the conversation at this point. The 4 guys that are basically auditioning for the role of defensive substitute in a Buck/Sweeney/Cust alignment are Rajai Davis (28) Chris Denorfia (28/29) Matt Murton (27) and Ryan Patterson (25). Patterson is a LF by default because he couldn’t hack it at 2B and Murton is much better suited to play in the corner. Denorfia has missed so much time the past 2 years that it’s tough to say what he could bring to the table in 2009. Davis got it done with the glove and his speed is a definite bonus, but his RH bat is weaker than Murton’s and maybe even Denorfia’s.
It gets even better. If I’m reading my rule book correctly, Murton and Denorfia will join Davis as being out of options for 2009. That means anyone who doesn’t make it on to Oakland’s 25 man roster has to clear waivers before they can be sent to Sacramento. I’m not saying there are any obvious answers here, just some decisions have to be made because the A’s have too many roster slots filled by older outfielders with middling upside. The A’s have one 1B on the 40 man roster and he hit 226/327/348. They’ve got an Is-he-healthy? Eric Chavez at 3B and a can’t hack it Jack Hannahan (don’t go there folks, too easy) as the primary hot corner back-up. Bobby Crosby might be the worst starting SS in the majors and he still gets top billing in the A’s organization!
And of course, all of this alignment speculation gets tossed by the wayside if either Gonzalez or Cunningham shows that they’re ready to play CF in the Show during Spring Training.
(We still haven’t talked about Javier Herrera or Richie Robnett yet, have we?)
The A’s need to get realistic here. They shouldn’t be able to look at the 40 man roster and pull together 5-man OF rotations for their big league and AAA clubs. 11 outfielders on the 40 man roster is ridiculous unless your infield is composed of the likes of Jimmy Rollins, Chase Utley and Ryan Howard… top tier players you control for a long time. That doesn’t describe the current Oakland infield. The A’s need to drop at least 3 of these outfielders from the 40 man roster and find talent to address other organizational needs. In a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately world Javier Herrera turns 24 next year, has one option remaining and has been stuck in neutral since 2005. Matt Murton has his supporters, but he’s a corner outfielder who’s been outhit by a 2 years younger Travis Buck. Davis and Denorfia can stick around through ST, the loser of their competition gets to move to a new local. Robnett has two options remaining and had his guts cut open just before the 2008 season started, so he gets a mulligan for now. Patterson is young enough and has accomplished enough to maybe have some trade value; he needs to be shopped vigorously.
Realistically, the A’s could drop Murton, Herrera, Robnett and Patterson from the 40 man roster and they probably wouldn’t feel a thing. The question then becomes, who do the A’s bring in to replace them?
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1 name for you DAYAN VICIENTO
is who you replace them with.
19yr old Cuban defector who happens to be a 3rd baseman.
Also happens was just rules a FA.
It's a heckuva name though
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 8, 2008 7:27 PM PST up reply actions
I agree
First Round Quality 3B Prospect on FA Market? Team with no depth at all in the minors at 3B?
GET HIM BILLY!
facepalm.jpg
He's 19? Gotta be several years off
Not that signing him would be a bad idea, just that he’d be “the guy after Eric Chavez” and not “the guy to fill in if Eric Chavez is still hurt.”
I’m all in favor of signing the guy, though.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 8, 2008 6:36 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You think he's 14?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 8, 2008 7:28 PM PST up reply actions
From the majors, not several years off as to his age...
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I really
hate to put a damper on this topic, because when I initially started reading about this kid a few days ago he sounded like an absolute can’t miss. Sounds like he projects to have big power, with a good offensive skill set. One article a I read had a scout say that there is no reason to think he won’t hit 35-40 HR’s in the big leagues some day. The problem is they also said he is built like a linebacker, and likely won’t stick at 3B because of his size. At this point he looks like a future 1B/DH, which to me really kills the excitement I had about him initially. He’s still an exciting prospect, but one that will probably end up playin a position this team is pretty deep at.
Me either
but last couple Cubans look like they are panning out in Ramirez and Kendry Morales.
He was called the “babe Ruth” of Cuban baseball so why not?
Would a 5yr 10 million dollar make sense?
It is a lot of money but if he pans out it is dirt cheap really. Look how smart the Sox look with Ramirez’s contract.
9 years $40M?
I don’t think 5/$10M would win the auction, especially with the White Sox winning any tiebreakers.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 8, 2008 7:29 PM PST up reply actions
Not only are you right about the number of outfielders
but the quality of them is also lacking. It’s one thing to keep that many outfielders on a roster; it’s quite another when nearly none of them project to do anything especially great.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Nov 8, 2008 5:52 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
It's disheartening
So many OFers, so few homerun hitters. It’d be nice to have a prototypical corner OF in the system. Alright, I’ll give ya CarGon. But another OFer who could hit more than 15 homers a season would be nice.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
I don't find it "disheartening" at all...
The team’s chosen to focus on defense rather than offense. Fine by me, I’ll take Aaron Cunningham over Jeff Francoeur every day of the week.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Before of course. At that point he had trade value.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 8, 2008 7:30 PM PST up reply actions
Would you take Cunnigham over prototypical OF
who is actually a good offensive player?
Picking Cunningham over Francoeur is like picking a SS prospect over Bobby Crosby. You’re damning with faint praise, even if unintentionally.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
There are plenty of people who still believe Jeff Francoeur will be a "good" offensive player
with “good” understood as “having a good batting average, RBI count, etc.”
I suppose there are still some people who believe he’ll be a good offensive player by any measure…
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Anyone would make that deal
Regardless, I’d like to see a couple of bangers manning the corner spots. You don’t have to defend like Ibáñez just because you hit like Dunn.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
No, but you're generally only affordable to teams like Oakland
if you field like Ibañez or Dunn.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Would anyone like a banger in the mouth?
Oh, I forgot. In the ’States, you just call them sausages in the mouth.
au contra ire
They go down in the most delicious way
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
Good Diary, Grover
It seems amazing to me that we just released a 3B prospect in Jesus Guzman, while we have 11 OF. That is why I’m always pushing for us to trade some of our OF prospects, and never mention trading our healthy OFers.
They're called RUNS for a reason.
the A's can still sigh him, can't they?
I see no reason to give up on Guzman, while keeping all of these outfielders.
by OaklandSi on Nov 8, 2008 6:54 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes
Had they released him, they would have been potentially restricted from re-signing him for a time. As a free agent, he can sign with whomever.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
All they had to do was add him to the 40-man. I'd look elsewhere if I were he.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 8, 2008 7:30 PM PST up reply actions
Shrug
Jose Garcia got non-tendered last offseason and he still re-upped with Oakland. You never know with these things, especially since the media doesn’t bother to report dollar figures for minor league contracts.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Yes
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
Amazing.
There’s no excuse for having a bad bullpen, people. None. Grant Balfour passed through waivers last March. Brad Ziegler was a minor league free agent. Joey Devine got acquired for one season of cheapish Mark Kotsay.
If you’re a GM and signing Scott Linebrink looks like a good idea, you really need to ask yourself some hard questions.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Using that logic there's no excuse for having a bad RF since Ryan
Ludwick was available for nothing and no excuse for having a bad 1B since Carlos Pena was available for nothing and no excuse for having a bad DH since David Ortiz was available for nothing and no excuse for Bob Crosby since Mike Aviles was available for nothing.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 8, 2008 10:26 PM PST up reply actions
There IS no excuse for Bobby Crosby
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The position players are more jewels in the rough than anything.
There may be a few studs pulled cheaply, but most of the cheap/F.A.T (yay BTB) guys are platoon.
Way more relievers are pulled through the cheap methods than position guys.
This.
Yes, it's true that if you look back at a season
you can always find a reliever who put up a good season for the cheap. The problem of course, is, how many freaking people expected that reliever to put up the good season, given that relievers are so notoriously volatile?
Grant Balfour was pretty damn bad in 2007. Not just from a ERA / RA standpoint. In Milwaukee, he was HAMMERED. More walks than Ks. A 22% LD rate, and only 22% of balls in play against him were ground balls.
And that GM that signed LInebrink, actually tried the acquire cheap hard throwing relievers approach, throw them against the wall, and see what sticks approach in 2007. It blew up in his face. I don’t agree with him siging Linebrink, for various reasons, but there are reasons for it.
Teams that want to contend don’t want to play reliever roulette.
IMO, it’s much much worse to pass on freely available positional talent, than freely available reliever talent.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
It's somewhat obvious that if you try to get FAT relievers and suck at it,
you will have a sucky bullpen. Just like if you try to get expensive relievers and suck at it, you will have a sucky bullpen.
Nonetheless, the fact is that the better GMs are consistently capable of generating good relief pitchers far more cheaply, efficiently and using fewer draft picks than the worse GMs.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
I have a theory about relievers
It seems like there are three groups of relievers:
Consistently good
Consistently bad
Inconsistently good and bad, examples: Alan Embree, Mike Timlin.
the first two groups are less interesting. but the last group seems to show a correlation between up and down seasons. I think every couple years or so, a reliever gets it together, the manager starts to notice it, and proceeds to wear their arm out. They are good for awhile, and then they fall apart with a shot arm.
the funny thing is that, once they suck for awhile, they stop getting used, their arm comes back, and they are decent again, just about the time they get released.
To test this theory we should sign Scott Proctor to a two year contract at the minimum. use him for one year, and then trade him.
They're called RUNS for a reason.
and this theory of yours about relievers ...
… the good/bad/inconsistent (and the latter miraculously consistent at a mediocre level over a large enough sample) triad distinguishes them from all other players in what way?
Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@
it applies to the use of their arm
and how the arm breaks down. and the problem with taking the sample over a long period of time is that they have a swing in their stats, not as predictable as a sine wave, but clearly over time they trend up and trend down.
i think it applies more to pitchers than hitters, because with hitters, it seems to be less about health of a body part and more about less predictable factors.
They're called RUNS for a reason.
he explained how it was different...
and I for one thought it was an interesting if somewhat overgeneralized explanation
On another note, I feel like I’ve been away from good old AN for forever. Had to check in after the Holliday trade….
"Behind both goals were banners bearing the word 'Calamity' while another carried the warning: 'You will drown in the Bosphorous.'"--Threats made by Turkish soccer fans to the British from a match in 2003. Tribute to their miraculous run in Euro 2008.
RIP Tim Russert, quintessential Buffalonian.
by Cutthemullet on Nov 12, 2008 3:41 AM PST up reply actions
no offense to Turkish soccer or Tim Russert...
but the sig shows that I hadn’t been around for a little while. Switch it up to something I remember Beane said to an AN member when the AN member approached him at a restaurant, I think
"Sweeney's a white Andre Ethier."--a white, drunk Billy Beane
by Cutthemullet on Nov 12, 2008 3:55 AM PST up reply actions
Great again grover!!!
Now I can’t wait for chapter 2.
Who do we trade to clear those spots and who we keep in the 25 and 40 man rosters from those 11.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
I get the feeling that Beane
is gonna do some serious trading this winter, especially with the glut of outfielders on the roster.
We have serious needs at SS, 3rd base, and I would love to add that other elusive power hitter in there as well.
while I've learned to expect the unexpected from Beane
I must admit I’m “expecting” to see him involved in some multi-team (threeways or more) deals.
Why isn't Patterson the River Cat 2B in 2009. Who else do they have?
Who else would you want in case of Ellis injury to be the platoon 2B/utility guy in the bigs?
I’m also not sure that Denorfia is out of options. He was called up in Sept 2005 and never sent back down, so he might have had his contract purchased. Do you know one way or the other?
I doubt Murton has much trade value, so it’s either keep him or DFA him at this point. He might even make it through waivers.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
Denorfia started was outrighted to AAA
after his stint on the DL. Twice (though the first time was taken back after they found out he was still hurt), but I’m a pretty sure they eventually used the option. Whether this year was his last option, not sure.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
When was he hurt in 2005? He played 137 games in the minors and 29 games in the majors.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 8, 2008 8:21 PM PST up reply actions
According to Cot's his contract was purchased in Sept 2005, so he should have an option left
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/oakland-athletics.html
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 9, 2008 8:08 PM PST up reply actions
He was not outrighted... he was optioned
Big difference. Outrights have to pass through waivers.
In any case, I believe he still has an option year remaining. He went straight from the minors to the active roster in 2005 and spent all of 2007 “in the majors” (on the DL).
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
my bad, that's what i meant
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
I think Denorfia will be okay this year
meaning a 750+ OPS while playing slightly above average CF. I hope he makes the roster and gets playing time.
They're called RUNS for a reason.
I'm not sure that would make him more valuable than Davis with a .700 OPS
And playing the best (or one of 2-3 best) defensive CF in baseball.
by thejd44 on Nov 12, 2008 11:55 AM PST up reply actions

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