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Bye Bye (Van) Burkleo?

It appears that our "hitting" coach Ty Van Burkleo will be leaving our "offense" to join recently-departed Don Wakamatsu up north in Seattle to "coach" their "offense." Was that a good use of quotations?

The story is here. I'd put this in a DLD but there hasn't been one for a few days so instead of burying it there I thought I'd give it more of a chance of being read.

I've never thought VB was anything special as a coach, certainly not all he was cracked up to be when we hired him away from the Angels. He was supposedly great at working with young hitters especially but the only younguns that seemed to have any success last year under his tutelage were Sweeney and Suzuki. Barton, Buck, Gonzalez, and Hannahan all fell apart and were pretty hopeless at the plate for a while if not the whole season. The offense as a whole was god awful but we don't need to get into that as we're all already painfuly aware of that fact. Maybe it wasn't his fault that they underperformed but in any case it wasn't like he helped them really turn it around either. Perhaps now we can fill the bench coach and hitting coach positions for more than a year at a time to create some continuity.

Auf Wiedersehen!

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Maybe we should choose a different TYPE of Hitting Coach

instead of one that constantly preaches patience, maybe a coach that preaches HIT THE FUCKING BALL. Because right now, the A’s “Patience” approach has turned into a “Passive” approach, where instead of waiting for the right pitch, they are just waiting for Strike 2.

facepalm.jpg

by Zonis on Nov 23, 2008 12:34 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I don't agree with your assessment of the approach at all

And I’m pretty sure you can’t prove that’s what’s actually happening.

The problem is that the hitters are just not as good as they once were.

by thejd44 on Nov 23, 2008 2:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

...

I can’t find the article, but a while back a guy broke down Dunn’s 2007 with pitchfx and all those things people say about him are true (got posted onto BBTF, well discussed but I can’t locate). Dunn really does take a huge number of hittable pitches. He takes pitches that he himself hammers when he swings at them. You’re right that the talent is less, and the ballpark for whatever reason played like Qualcomm last year (sidenote, next thing the A’s should do is make as many adjustments as possible to improve the hitting environment, starting with moving in the right field fence), but if somebody were to put the effort in, I’d happily bet cash that the A’s data wouldn’t look much different than Dunn’s. Because they hit the ball so hard, Dunn and Cust can still be very good players with their approaches. Not many guys strike the ball like that.

by AgitationStation on Nov 23, 2008 10:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Really.

A guy goes through a complex statistical study of one player, and, based purely on what you think you’ve seen (no data whatsoever), you generalize that to an entire team of players?

I’d take that bet in a second if I could actually put terms to it, because it’s pretty obvious you have no idea what you’re talking about. However, I don’t even know what the “bet” is (actually, I’m fairly sure it’s just meaningless chest-thumping, but that’s neither here nor there), nor am I about to waste my time going through such a study in order to collect on it.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 23, 2008 10:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

...

Yeah, wasn’t trying to present an academic paper here Paul. I don’t think anybody needs to do much more than use their eyes to realize that A’s hitters take too many hittable pitches. Did you watch two A’s games this season?

Anybody remember this article I’m referring to? It was a followup to Pizza Cutter’s piece on Dunn’s patience in his By the Numbers article, using specific pitch data rather than just strike or ball. Actually can’t find Pizza Cutter’s article either (that was interesting, but flawed).

Here’s Dan Fox’s attempt at quantifying plate discipline back in 07 (similar)….

http://danagonistes.blogspot.com/2007/06/quantifying-plate-discipline.html

by AgitationStation on Nov 23, 2008 11:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm still wondering if we can actually make a bet on this

I’m a starving grad student, I need all the money I can get.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 23, 2008 12:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

now you're an egotistical asshole!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 23, 2008 2:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Christ what a sexy goat.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 23, 2008 10:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

do hitting coaches really have much of an impact at that level anyway?

if a guy has been swinging a certain way his whole career, how much can the hitting coach change that approach? I mean, don’t get me wrong, hitting coaches do provide some sort of value on any given MLB team, but I’m just wondering how much of an effect on a teams stats one coach can have.

'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 23, 2008 11:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching coaches can teach new pitches or, in the case of Brad Ziegler, an entirely new pitching motion

I don’t think TVB will be teaching Jose Lopez to hit submarine anytime soon.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 23, 2008 12:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That would be way cool, though

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 23, 2008 2:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

we're all watching the oakland gold and green, the oakland gold and green

etc.

that was the original, i think

BB should send scouts to watch cricket players.

by alea iacta est on Nov 23, 2008 2:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure a hitting coach can point out flaws in your swing and

devise methods so that you can fix them. That’s just judging from the coaching I’ve received in my lifetime, granted I’ve never played baseball…

by OldhamA on Nov 23, 2008 2:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

ML hitters,

like hitters at any level, are not robots. This means that even they develop flaws in their swings and approaches, necessitating a hitting coach. The fact that quite a few hitters last year either fell off a cliff or failed to adjust reflects poorly on VB’s ability to diagnose any problems and/or correct them.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Nov 23, 2008 4:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The fact that every A's hitting coach has had the same results

in terms of processes and outcomes suggests it’s not Van Burkeleo – who, judging by the players’ feedback, was the best of Bosley, Hudgens, Van Burkeleo (did I miss one; there have been so many?).

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 23, 2008 9:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gerald Perry

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Nov 23, 2008 9:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you - I knew there were four

I think of the four, players would praise Van Burkeleo first (maybe Bosley second).

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 23, 2008 9:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I remember

there was a bit of an outcry from the players when Bosley was canned, and for good reason.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Nov 23, 2008 9:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And where do you see that each coach has had the same results?

Last year was by far our worst offensive year in recent memory. I know the players were much younger and/or much less talented in previous years but when a guy’s supposed specialty is working with young hitters and improving their outputs and then fails historically I’d say he’s been the worst hitting coach we’ve had. The fact that all the players said how good he was probably speaks more to his personality than his talent.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Nov 23, 2008 9:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He was coaching Hannahan, Crosby,

Patterson…No one could get offense out of those guys because there’s none to get. Suzuki and Sweeney did better than anyone expected, Buck and Barton worse. But on the whole, VB was given a bunch of okay to crappy hitters whose failures had nothing to do with the coaches.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 23, 2008 9:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

How about Ellis?

Granted Crosby sucks, but Ellis took a nose dive. And Patterson has put up solid minor league numbers the past couple years, ditto Hannahan. I’m not arguing that VB is the worst coach in the world, I’m saying that it’s a good thing he’s gone because he wasn’t a very good one. It’d be great to find one who could combine the admiration of his students with results on the field.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Nov 24, 2008 12:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ellis had one of his better hitting seasons, masked by an unexplained downward fluctuation in BABIP

Maybe it was injury, which certainly isn’t TVB’s fault, but if not it was almost certainly luck.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 24, 2008 9:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My eyeball guess is that it was

nagging injury/pain causing front shoulder to drop, leading to an abundance of routine fly balls – which are never going to yield a very high BABIP.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 24, 2008 4:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Correct

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 24, 2008 6:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the problem is more who Van Burkleo has had to work with

rather than his necessarily having been a good hitting coach.

Many people have written that Thad Bosley was one of the A’s better hitting coaches in recent years…but I also think he had better hitters to work with.

I wouldn’t expect miracle results from any other hitting coach until there is an upgrade in the hitting talent.

by OaklandSi on Nov 23, 2008 4:51 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Mike Sweeney for hitting coach

  The players listen to him and he knows how to hit and adjust.

by Arcman on Nov 23, 2008 9:25 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

That would be awesome.

Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40

by #14fan on Nov 23, 2008 10:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It would be.

Hopefully the organization didn’t piss him off too much with the manner in which they ended his time in Oakland… as I recall it, he wasn’t at all happy with the way he was released and the timing of it.

by still bills kingdom on Nov 23, 2008 9:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Please let this be true

Didn’t have to watch too many A’s games last year to realize the hitters had screwed up approaches. Plate discipline is not walks. Plate discipline is swinging at good pitches to hit and not swinging at bad pitches to hit. I don’t care how much research and preparation VanBurkleo did, the A’s hitters swung at way too many bad pitches, and didn’t swing at way too many good ones.

I agree with Zonis. It’s time to get a coach who will preach a more aggressive approach (controlled aggression).

by AgitationStation on Nov 23, 2008 9:53 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Isn't it management

that sets the hitting philosophy?

If we lose VB, won’t beane just find somebody else who coaches in the same way?

Ellis for President

by tosk on Nov 23, 2008 11:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Didnt we say we wanted to give Rickey a Job?

Swisher on Ellis - "every day he does something that makes me say, 'Well, I'll be damned, look at that!'"

by Mantecan As Fan on Nov 23, 2008 10:33 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

He can teach our batters to steal first!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 23, 2008 10:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

and talk in the 3rd person!

'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 23, 2008 11:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rickey resents that remark.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Nov 23, 2008 11:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh please

That’s easy to do. I… #$#, I mean… #@*. DMOAS is a natural at it.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Nov 23, 2008 11:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nico is confu...

Wait, that’s wrong too.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 23, 2008 10:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

An under appreciated skill if there ever was one.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Nov 23, 2008 4:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

frank thomas, mike sweeney, scott hatteberg, AND rickey henderson for hitting coach

hey our offense needs all the help it can get.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Nov 23, 2008 2:37 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

That's also a great 1-4 if the budget still allows for a time machine

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 23, 2008 9:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously, though- is there any rule that says a team CAN'T have 4 hitting coaches?

I guess most clubs get around the problem by naming folks as “special assistant” or “advisor” or something, actually…

by still bills kingdom on Nov 23, 2008 9:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Seems like a "too many cooks" situation to me...

Ask four guys how to fix a guy’s swing and you’re likely to get four different answers.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 23, 2008 9:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

With Oakland, I'd rather ask one guy how to fix four guys' swing

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 23, 2008 9:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

First off, I need to call it a night because I read PT's "too many cooks"

thing as something different, and said “what?! That’s a strange analogy…”

Seriously though- I agree you don’t want 4 different hitting coaches diagnosing the hole in one guy’s swing, but isn’t it also possible that with different types of hitters who thrive with different swings and approaches, it might actually make sense to have multiple options for hitters to consult with? I’m envisioning a scenario where you have a couple different hitting coaches and the players can choose who they want to work with based on comfort level and how well the coaches relate and can offer insight that’s helpful.

For example, in the scenario xbhaskarx brought up I could see Hatty and Hurt (that sounds like a Vaudeville act) working more with the high plate discipline guys who are looking to hit for extra bases every time up or take a walk if they don’t get their pitch and I could see Rickey and Sweeney working more with the high average contact hitters or something.

Yeah, that’s a flawed set-up but you get the idea…

by still bills kingdom on Nov 23, 2008 9:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Many years ago I worked in a food service establishment, and the cooks

decided to put a couple signs, hanging from the rafters, either end of a walkway that they considered their territory and didn’t want other employee foot-traffic trespassing upon.

The signs were red lettering on white background, and read: “Cooks Alley.”

It didn’t take me long to realize that a little bit of whiteout, strategically applied, could change the way those signs read considerably.

Either the saddest or funniest part of that story is that nobody ever seemed to notice.

by still bills kingdom on Nov 23, 2008 10:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

piazza?

'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 24, 2008 6:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm not too fussed who does it

so long as they say to Jack Bananahan, “look Jack, you can’t hit the ball that hard. So rather than, yknow, flying out again and again 3/4 of the way to the right field wall, how’s about taking a little off and dropping it in for a single?”

or am i simplifying too much?

oh, and that was appropriate use of quotation marks.

BB should send scouts to watch cricket players.

by alea iacta est on Nov 23, 2008 2:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I would rather they say "ADIOS" to Jack Hannahan and let him play in AAA ball where he belongs

or on a rival because if he’s manning 3rd base then this team is still in trouble.

The guy gets a fastball right down broadway and it it’s over 94 he whiffs on it.

You may have figured out that he and Crosby are my most despised players.

by Trainman on Nov 23, 2008 8:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

News flash: I actually agree with Trainman on something!

Remarkable.

Among the A’s hitters who saw significant playing time last season, Hannahan’s contact rate on swings at balls in the strike zone was only better than Jack Cust’s, and obviously Cust did a lot more damage when he did make contact…

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 23, 2008 9:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I sat right behind the plate for a couple games

where Hannahan kept swinging through three high fastballs in the strike zone (one was a Cliff Lee start). It was sad.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 23, 2008 9:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

it's hard

for me to see the strike zone from the left hand bleachers…

BB should send scouts to watch cricket players.

by alea iacta est on Nov 24, 2008 11:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Hannahan sucks as much as the next guy

and I know this was some hyperbole (though Nico seems to confirm some of it below) but Hannahan makes plenty of contact with fastballs > 94 down the plate, as you can see:

Can't get enough of the Oakland A's or Golden State Warriors? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's and Golden Stat Hoops

by iamawesomer on Nov 23, 2008 9:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

bah that turned out bigger than I thought it would my bad

Can't get enough of the Oakland A's or Golden State Warriors? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's and Golden Stat Hoops

by iamawesomer on Nov 23, 2008 9:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nonetheless, see above

It’s not going to be obvious on something like this, because Z-Contact rates don’t vary that much among major league starters, but he whiffed on substantially more pitches in the zone than the average hitter.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 23, 2008 9:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i hope

that you only got tickets on the first base side, then…

BB should send scouts to watch cricket players.

by alea iacta est on Nov 23, 2008 8:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Does anyone think

that there is a chance that the A’s would hire Mike Sweeney as hitting coach? What about bench coach? The guy is just such a class act, an enthusiastic person and teacher, and a heckuva ballplayer. Doe anyone doubt that he would make a great coach?

by the_rozeboom on Nov 23, 2008 9:11 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

hmmm

Matt Holliday has never played a game in Oakland, Calif., never taken an at-bat or caught a flyball. But that doesn’t mean the left fielder doesn’t have connections to Oakland.

For the last few seasons, the three-time all-star has received hitting tips via text messages from Mark McGwire, one of the A’s greatest sluggers. And he’s also close to former Oakland shortstop Walt Weiss and Mike Gallego, the A’s new third-base coach.

Lisa: "Swim toward San Francisco!" Homer: "I'm not made of money! We'll swim to Oakland."

by MajorRager on Nov 24, 2008 4:27 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

McGwire for hitting coach!

We’ll have a lineup with 9 Hollidays!

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 24, 2008 6:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Now that's a lineup you could win with

Sorry 9 Hattebergs

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 24, 2008 9:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A lineup you could win with?

Try a WORK SCHEDULE you could win with!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 24, 2008 4:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Whole Artical

Matt Holliday has never played a game in Oakland, Calif., never taken an at-bat or caught a flyball. But that doesn’t mean the left fielder doesn’t have connections to Oakland.

For the last few seasons, the three-time all-star has received hitting tips via text messages from Mark McGwire, one of the A’s greatest sluggers. And he’s also close to former Oakland shortstop Walt Weiss and Mike Gallego, the A’s new third-base coach.

“Gags threw me batting practice the last three years (with the Rockies), so it’s nice to have a familiar face there, to know someone,” Holliday said.

Here’s what the A’s know about Holliday, officially acquired Wednesday from the Rockies for closer Huston Street, starter Greg Smith and outfielder Carlos Gonzalez.

“He’s a premium, MVP-caliber player. To say that we could do better than this, that would be tough,” A’s general manager Billy Beane said.

Holliday plans on wearing No. 5 in Oakland, though his prodigious blasts might conjure memories of No. 25, once worn by McGwire. Holliday spoke to Bay Area reporters for the first time Wednesday, taking the high road over his Rockies exit while embracing his new challenge in Oakland, even if it is only for a few months or a single season.

“I try to keep it simple. I am not going to wrap my thoughts around what people are watching or expecting,” said Holliday, whose pending free agency after next season and the Rockies’ concession that they could not satisfy his contract demands drove the trade.

“When you try to take on big expectations and put more weight on your shoulders, that can be more of a negative than a positive,” Holliday said. “I will try to be a leader through my work ethic.”

Holliday’s first challenge? Debunk a lingering stereotype. Despite the humidor normalizing home run totals at Coors Field — the Rockies haven’t had a 40-home run hitter since installing the device in 2002 — the national perception is Holliday is a Coors Field creation because of his home-road power splits. His new park is among baseball’s most pitcher-friendly.

“If I could aim the ball where I wanted it, I would have a lot higher average anywhere,” joked Holliday, a career .319 hitter who has averaged 32 home runs and 113 RBIs the past three seasons. “My focus is on hitting the ball hard; if I do that, I will take my chances.”

Holliday will be counted on to ramp up one of baseball’s worst offenses. The A’s finished last in the American League in batting average and slugging percentage.

“I’m not Pollyannaish enough to think that you acquire one player and you go from 75 to 95 wins,” Beane said. “This addresses some of our immediate needs and helps us continue what we’re trying to do long-term, which is continue to acquire young players (through draft picks if Holliday leaves as a free agent) so we can take advantage of situations like this.”

Troy E. Renck: 303-954-1301 or trenck@denverpost.com

Lisa: "Swim toward San Francisco!" Homer: "I'm not made of money! We'll swim to Oakland."

by MajorRager on Nov 26, 2008 12:54 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

NEVER paste an entire article, please, for copyright reasons

A sentence or two, and the link, is fine. Thanks.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 26, 2008 6:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

th

Pumpkin Pie

by Ice Cream on Nov 26, 2008 7:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not a letter or two

And where the link? How long am I supposed to hold a bottle of mustard, just waiting?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 27, 2008 10:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow - that's a great article!

Thanks.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 27, 2008 3:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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