Team dollars-per-win for 2008
I originally posted this on my blog, but I figured I'd get better readership here. Oh, and probably more people poking holes in my thoughts. ;) Be gentle! I am by no means close to the skills of grover or salb918 or the other Staturday folks!
---
A recent post on the Beyond the Boxscore blog pointed me to another blog entry on Statspeak called Building a sabermatrician's workbench. And as the web will do, I was then pointed to Baseball-Databank.org.
I'm not new to MySQL databases or SQL queries, but the existence of a free baseball database was news to me, so I downloaded and imported the beast. It's quite an interesting blob of data and you can use it to analyize and discover tidbits about your favorite teams and players.
I started off with something simple. I wanted to find out how payroll and team wins are related, specifically from this past year. I messed around with the database, and came up with a query for data that is probably easy to find out and already analyzed on lots of other websites. But where is the fun in that? So I created a query that would take the sum of all players' salaries on each team, and then divide it by the number of wins that team had. A simple calculation, but a little more wordy when written out as a query:
SELECT t.teamID, t.W, t.L, (t.W/t.G) as wpct,
sum(s.salary) as payroll,
sum(s.salary)/t.W as dpw
FROM Teams t, Salaries s
WHERE t.teamID = s.teamID
AND t.yearID = s.yearID
AND s.yearID = 2008
GROUP BY s.teamID
ORDER BY dpw DESC
I won't go into detail on what each line of the query does, because you can find that out elsewhere if you are interested. It query outputs the wins, losses, win percent, payroll and dollars per win that the team spent for 2008. Here are the results, with dollars in millions:
|
team |
W |
L |
wpct |
payroll |
dpw |
|
NYA |
89 |
73 |
0.5494 |
207.9 |
2.336 |
|
SEA |
61 |
101 |
0.3765 |
117.7 |
1.929 |
|
DET |
74 |
88 |
0.4568 |
137.7 |
1.861 |
|
NYN |
89 |
73 |
0.5494 |
137.8 |
1.548 |
|
ATL |
72 |
90 |
0.4444 |
102.4 |
1.422 |
|
LAN* |
84 |
78 |
0.5185 |
118.6 |
1.412 |
|
BOS* |
95 |
67 |
0.5864 |
133.4 |
1.404 |
|
CHA* |
89 |
74 |
0.5460 |
121.2 |
1.362 |
|
CHN* |
97 |
64 |
0.6025 |
118.3 |
1.220 |
|
LAA* |
100 |
62 |
0.6173 |
119.2 |
1.192 |
|
SDN |
63 |
99 |
0.3889 |
73.7 |
1.169 |
|
SLN |
86 |
76 |
0.5309 |
99.6 |
1.158 |
|
TOR |
86 |
76 |
0.5309 |
97.8 |
1.137 |
|
SFN |
72 |
90 |
0.4444 |
76.6 |
1.064 |
|
PHI* |
92 |
70 |
0.5679 |
97.9 |
1.064 |
|
HOU |
86 |
75 |
0.5342 |
88.9 |
1.034 |
|
CIN |
74 |
88 |
0.4568 |
74.1 |
1.002 |
|
BAL |
68 |
93 |
0.4224 |
67.2 |
0.988 |
|
CLE |
81 |
81 |
0.5000 |
79.0 |
0.975 |
|
WAS |
59 |
102 |
0.3665 |
55.0 |
0.932 |
|
COL |
74 |
88 |
0.4568 |
68.7 |
0.928 |
|
MIL* |
90 |
72 |
0.5556 |
80.9 |
0.899 |
|
TEX |
79 |
83 |
0.4877 |
67.7 |
0.857 |
|
ARI |
82 |
80 |
0.5062 |
66.2 |
0.807 |
|
KCA |
75 |
87 |
0.4630 |
58.2 |
0.777 |
|
PIT |
67 |
95 |
0.4136 |
48.7 |
0.727 |
|
MIN |
88 |
75 |
0.5399 |
56.9 |
0.647 |
|
OAK |
75 |
86 |
0.4658 |
48.0 |
0.640 |
|
TBA* |
97 |
65 |
0.5988 |
43.8 |
0.452 |
|
FLO |
84 |
77 |
0.5217 |
21.8 |
0.260 |
What does this tell us? I've highlighted the teams that made it into the postseason. Most of them were in the top half and around 1.2-1.4 million per win.
There are two reasons you could have a high dpw:
1) High Payroll. The more you pay, the more each win will cost you.
2) Low Wins. The less you win, the more those you do win will have cost you.
Let's look at a few teams.
The Yankees with the highest per-win value (2.336m) had a tough year but came out six wins short of tying Boston for the wild card (assuming those wins didn't come from Boston). That number of wins would have lowered their dpw to about 2.2m. Either way, their strategy, for the most part, is to pay for veterans who have proved themselves to be among the best in the game. This year, it didn't work out for them.
The Tampa Bay Rays, on the other hand, made the most out of a low payroll by taking their 452k per win to a World Series berth. I imagine that their dollars-per-win will go up over the next few years as their young stars start to get into the mature part of their contracts, though I haven't researched that. Also, perhaps the higher revenue from an excited fanbase translates into more money for free agents.
Seattle has the second highest dpw value with their 118m payrool and only 61 wins. Even though the Yankees have the highest dpw, I think the Mariners are the most offensive (as in offending, not in run production) team this year. They are in a smaller market and have less revenue coming in than the Yankees do and the losing record and current roster makes me think that they are a lot of big changes away from being competetive.
The Oakland Athletics are pretty low on the dollars-per-win chart with a sub-.500 year that threatenend for awhile to be a winning year. They are adding payroll this year and should pick up more wins, though I still expect them to be near the lower quarter of this graph next year.
So what does dollars-per-win tell us? Is payroll releated to team wins? Yes, but not always. A team like the Yankees can be successful year after year by throwing money at the best players, but that will not guarantee them a 100 win season each time. They can do that though because they are in a large market and can count on the revenue coming in to make up for the higher cost. Smaller market teams need to be smarter and more efficient with their payroll in order to compete for a playoff spot on a yearly basis since they don't have the same kind of revenues.
I don't think there is anything wrong with having a high dollars-per-win ratio. I think it depends on how you're getting it. If the team isn't making it to the postseason (or getting close to it) then the players they are paying for are probably not worth what they are earning. I think dollars-per-win could be considered an effiency thing, i.e, what is the team doing with the money they are paying out. In the end (competetivly), nothing matters more than a World Series but you'll never get there without the wins, so wins become important. And in the end (business-wise) you just want to make money, and wins will keep people coming to the park.
Where to go from here? First, I should take a look at previous years and see what the patterns are. Do most teams come from the top, or is there always a team or two that comes from the depths? It would be interesting to look at the similar calculation of net revenue-per-win, but I don't know where to get those numbers. The results would take into account their market and attendance and put it up against wins. Teams that have a higher attendance dispite a poor team would probably rate well. Maybe net revenue-per-win would mean more for the bean counters than the stat heads.
Am I assuming too much with dollars-per-win? Have I made any mistakes? Any other thoughts?
0 recs |
25 comments
Comments
What might be really interesting
is measuring an adjusted dollars-per-win that took into account the dollars teams are saving by paying peanuts to young players. In other words, while there isn’t a dollar cost to playing Ryan Sweeney, there’s an opportunity cost because you’re using up a year of service time and taking him closer to free agency.
And to answer the inevitable follow-up question, no, I have utterly no idea how one would go about actually calculating this adjustment.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 20, 2008 4:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
It would likely be the expected value of the player in the first year of free agency minus what he'd get if the team still controlled him.
Does that sound right? But yea, how do you figure out what a player is going to do in a few years and also what will the market be like?
by LoneStranger on Nov 20, 2008 4:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it would just be the expected value of the first FA year, minus the actual value in the year in question ...
since you’re going to pay the player more or less the same amount (in relative dollars) over the life of their pre-FA years, regardless, so you’re otherwise just moving those same dollars from one year to the next.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Nov 23, 2008 5:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i guess part of that question is -
if you bring a player up later, is he more likely to perform at a higher level? and by performing at a higher level, does that mean you’d have to pay him more to resign?
so if you bring him up earlier, yes, he reaches FA a year earlier, maybe you get to keep him at a lower rate due to him not having yet shown full talent? though, of course, the corollary to that is, is he more expensive then to resign because he’s younger.
and also, certain positions (and obviously, players) are likely to be more valuable than others.
two ways of approching this, i suspect -
1. go through player by player and asses likelihood of success, etc
or
2. take a league wide average (probably by position) of first FA contracts.
i’m not sure that 2 would work, as it’d be skewed by the really large contracts (perhaps a modal value would be better?), and i’m not sure that the sample size on teams would be large enough to apply these numbers.
so in conclusion, i’d say it’s tough…
BB should send scouts to watch cricket players.
by alea iacta est on Nov 20, 2008 4:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How would you answer your question
of player performance relative to whether you bring them up later or sooner? Players are not the same. They develope at different rates.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Nov 20, 2008 4:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i think that's the point
it’s a tought one. obviously, if you have a large enough data set, you can make some generalisations, however, these are only accurate if applied to an wide enough sample size.
in conclusion – a toughie
BB should send scouts to watch cricket players.
by alea iacta est on Nov 21, 2008 12:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
just reading that back
probably shouldn’t write sentances about maths when i’ve been drinking.
or, come to that, sentances at all.
hm
BB should send scouts to watch cricket players.
by alea iacta est on Nov 21, 2008 12:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Or, which players are the most valuable in $/win
And what the makeup of playoff teams are in terms of their players’ dollars/win (as compared to non-playoff teams with similar $/win.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Nov 20, 2008 4:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think this is really a vastly overrated stat in stathead circles. The objective of a major
league team isn’t to maximize Wins per Payroll Dollar or to keep players in indentured servitude for the maximum number of productive years in their careers.
The objective of any business is to maximize shareholder value. Now if you want to examine the impact of payroll on shareholder value or the impact of bringing up players from the minors at different points in their careers on shareholder value that would make for a much more relevant discussion. My guess is that the impact of the actual transaction to promote the player is negligible, but that teams that actually pay a lot of attention to this are less successful than teams that focus on revenues.
For example the Yankees look like the least efficient team on this table, but lo and behold they’ve added the most value to their shareholders of any team since George Steinbrenner bought them for $10M in 1973. And they’re not sitting on their laurels — they’re moving into a new stadium next year that should dramatically increase their revenues. I’d argue that their willingness to do whatever it takes to win, including not worry about Wins per Payroll Dollar is a crucial reason for their ability to draw fans, have an in-house cable network, thereby add to their shareholder value. They’re now worth $1.306 billion, as of April 2008 according to Forbes. That’s an increase of 130 times the original purchase price and 23% appreciation per year, in addition to their annual cash flow and tax benefits to the owners.
The Rays look like the most successful team according to this table (when you take into account their playoff berth), but I’d argue they’re a lot less successful than not just the Yankees, but also a really crappy looking team like the Mariners. Yamauchi Hiroshi bought the Mariners for $125 million in 1992 and Vince Naimoli paid $130 million for the Rays in 1995. I’m not sure what the Mariners were worth in 1995, but the events in 1994-1995 couldn’t have done wonders for their franchise value. The Mariners are now worth $466 million compared to the Rays $290 million. To their credit the Stuart Sternberg administration has done a lot better than the Naimoli administration, after they bought into the ownership in 2004 at an imputed value of $135 million.
If you want to look at the impact of payroll on the team’s ownership for just 2008 you can compare these values to next year’s Forbes’s value estimates, and add that to the 2008 season cash flow and tax impact on the owners. Or if you don’t like Forbes’s estimates you can come up with your own and explain why they’re better.
As a side note, if you wonder why Bud Selig has so much power, look at what franchise values have done since he took over.
Franchise Values were taken from Forbes as quoted on Cot’s Baseball Contracts
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 20, 2008 6:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Are you seriously trying to suggest that the enormous corporate welfare giveaway that is the Yankees' new stadium
is a. causally linked to their decision to buy lots of high priced free agents, and b. something that ownership groups of other teams should be aspiring to obtain?
I mean, no shit it’s upping the franchise value. They just got the politicians of New York to basically give away half the damn budget to them. Not exactly free market capitalism at its finest hour.
In point of fact, if you subtract out the cost of that stadium (1.3 billion dollars if I’m not mistaken) from the franchise’s sticker price, suddenly the team’s value is… zero. Now, that’s unfair because the Yankees are footing a bit of the price, around 1/3 of it, but appreciation from $10 million to $450 million looks a hell of a lot less impressive than from $10 million to $1.3 billion.
Likewise with the Mariners: subtract out the enormous public subsidy known as Safeco Field which they got and the Rays didn’t (and adding back in the pathetically inadequate $700K a year they pay in rent, which will repay the stadium costs in about 500 years), and the Mariners have actually LOST MONEY since 1993.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 20, 2008 8:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Who said anything about free market capitalism? I'm saying that popularity contributed to value.
There’s no way the Yankees or Mariners get new stadia if the politicians didn’t think the public would be upset to see them move. If your point is that the Rays should try for a new stadium financed in favorable terms, then I agree wholeheartedly. Actually having fans and generating revenues is going help, not hinder, that effort.
In any case the Wins per Payroll Dollar are largely irrelevant.
As a fan I care about Wins, not Wins per Payroll Dollar. As an owner, I care about shareholder value, not Wins per Payroll Dollar. It’s a red herring designed to amuse stat nerds.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 20, 2008 9:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But the M's don't own Safeco Field
They lease it. The estimated value of their franchise is enhanced by having a good lease deal, but it doesn’t include the value of Safeco or the land it’s on, which your equation seems to assume.
The same is basically true of the New Yankee Stadium deal as I understand it, though it’s financing/ownership/bond deal is more complicated.
Your larger point about the public money creating much of their private profit, of course, is exactly correct.
Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Nov 20, 2008 10:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Giants -- Magowan paid $100M in 1992, valued at $494M in 2008
What was the role of public monies to build that stadium?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 20, 2008 11:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Can you guess which team was acquired for $21M in 1981 and is valued at $642M
in 2008, and does not have a new stadium, and is below median in Payroll Dollar per Win Efficiency?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 20, 2008 11:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How about which team sold for $120M in 2001 and is valued at $352M in 2008
Also in the same old stadium.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 20, 2008 11:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fairly considerable, actually, when you include things other than cash payments
Also considerable is the amount to which the stadium was subsidized by MLB’s sister franchises.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 21, 2008 9:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How would you quantify the impact of public money on franchise value?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 20, 2008 11:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Alright, fair enough, I'm no expert on this stuff
However— any rational estimation of the franchise value of Seattle has to include some large amount of unrealized future surplus value from the sweetheart lease that they have on the stadium.
I don’t know how long the Yankees have the lease on NYS (and in fact, it may not be known or even have been negotiated at this point) but the same point holds.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 21, 2008 9:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
wins per payroll dollar is a vastly overrated stat in stathead circles? who even uses it?
this doesn’t even take into account a baseline replacement level of wins (or payroll)…
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Nov 21, 2008 7:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that might be another way to improve this
Focus on marginal wins per marginal dollar. You can win 50 games with a $10 million payroll, which doesn’t make you a genius.
I still think there needs to be some way to get an adjustment for the opportunity cost of draft pick value in there. Otherwise you’ll always end up overestimating the performance of teams like Tampa.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 21, 2008 9:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
the teams are basically in the same order as they would be based on payroll, just a few spots up or down.
also, i totally forgot the a’s won more games than the braves and tigers.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Nov 21, 2008 7:15 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think this statistic is too useful as it is nearly in order of payroll anyways (high to low), give or take a few positions up or down.
(With that said, it was a very interesting ‘behind the scenes’ look at how the data was calculated – thank you LoneStranger)
It is interesting, however, on three extreme points:
1. The glaring failure of the Mariners season last year
2. The glaring success of the Rays season
3. Marlins won just as many games as the Dodgers with nearly $100 million less in payroll
(Taking no other variables into account of course besides the data provided)
The game is changing towards player development / pitching and it’s nice our team has been ahead of that curve. Twins, Marlins and Rays jump out the same way, taking a different approach than the norm to find success (maximizing output on given input, or “dealing with the hand you’re dealt” – of course it would be EXTREMELY nice to have unlimited payroll flexibility).
With that said, I’m extremely happy we have payroll flexibility and we’re using it on some offense!
by BillMoresi on Nov 21, 2008 1:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
As I was writing the article, I realized more and more that it doesn’t really tell us much, but that’s not anything I would have known without actually looking at the numbers. It was an excercise not only in community participation but practice in looking at the numbers and reading them. (Like tea leaves?)
I think there are a few good directions suggested by you all that would give us more interesting data to talk about. I especially like the marginal wins idea and I found
an article on Baseball Prospectus that shows the numbers for the late 70’s. I might try to do something similar as my next excercise.
One of the flaws that doesn’t make much of a difference is that I did not take into account that some of the teams didn’t play a full 162 game schedule (OAK, BAL, CHN, HOU, WAS, FLO) or that two teams played 163 (CHA, MIN). Again, little difference but things like that are required to make a more accurate reading.
I think the conversations spawned by the subject were as interesting as anything else I had written, if not moreso and I thank you all for the participation.
by LoneStranger on Nov 21, 2008 2:20 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
always good stuff
the dollar-win thing. column missing is revenue. for example yankees 207mill payroll is part of team revenue of 264mill (2007 rev number). marlins 21mill payroll vs revenue of 103mill (again, 2007 number).
owner of a lonely tarp
by oakath on Nov 21, 2008 3:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
























