Royals are Really Cookoo.

This trade, IMO, came out even.

Coco Crisp is better defensively at CF than DeJesus is. Crisp is an improvement over Gathright, period.

Miguel Olivo and Jose Guillen will beat his ass. I wanna see this. Badly

A rebuilding team doesn’t need bullpen depth. That’s something you fix in one offseason, quickly.

I wanna see Teahen to the Cubs for Sean Marshall.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 19, 2008 1:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Pretty much any player is an improvement over Gathright, period.

Crisp might be (slightly) better than DDJ defensively, he’s also much worse offensively.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 19, 2008 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

is it just me

or is joey gathright the same person as willy mays hayes

by travdog6 on Nov 19, 2008 4:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think you're the same person as Willy Mays Hayes,

so it must be Gathright.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 22, 2008 1:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Crisp is much better than DeJesus defensively

DeJesus is overstretched in center; Crisp is one of the better CF in baseball. His zone ratings don’t look great but that’s because Fenway’s funky park effects make every outfielder who plays there look terrible.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 19, 2008 6:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

>

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Nov 19, 2008 7:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

DeJesus is overstretched in center?

Maybe.

UZR, in the past, generally graded him well. MGL once claimed, in his usual over the top manner granted, that DDJ is one of the best players in MLB.

Last season, he was around average, by both zone rating and RZR. This season, RZR rates him very well. zone rating not so much. CHONE projects him a 3 runs above average in center.

Given the gap between the 2 offensively, Crisp would have to the best CF defensively for him to be equivalent, something like 15 runs better than DDJ defensively.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 19, 2008 11:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, I think DeJesus is the better player

I’d expect Crisp to come out 5-10 runs better as a defender.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 19, 2008 11:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure why people think Crisp is so good on D

His stats are not particularly impressive (they were pretty bad in Cleveland), and Sox fans think he is good but nothing special. I don’t know why you think DDJ is overstretched in CF either. Chone has DDJ 6 runs better in CF than Crisp. I don’t think that’s right either, but I don’t see any reason to think Crisp is 5-10 runs better. Also, Crisp has a terrible arm.

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on Nov 20, 2008 12:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If Billy Beane thinks a player is great defensively, that basically tells me he's great defensively

I trust whatever internal metrics the A’s have going for them.

The zone ratings are really bad at evaluating players who play for Boston.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 20, 2008 8:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Zone rating is not park adjusted

AFAIK, neither is RZR.

Plus minus is park adjusted. UZR is supposed to be, but MGL has conceded that there’s a big discrepancy between Manny’s numbers in Fenway, and away from Fenway, with the Fenway numbers being MUCH worse.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 20, 2008 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Living in Boston and watching Coco play D . . .

is a real treat. Not only does he make the highlight reel plays, he makes the basic plays well and seems to be one of the smarter and quicker fielders out there.

If he stays healthy, my guess is he turns out to be not only a great CF but an OK hitter – though below average for a leadoff hitter. Which means that the deal seems approx. fair, though I think it improves Boston more than it improves KC, as long as Ellsbury progresses.

Curious if you have any suggestions for how to assess outfielders if the zone ratings and fielding percentage don’t do it. The Beane Test might be the best, of course . . .

it is not possible to strategize while the ball is coming towards you

by eastcoasta'sfan on Nov 20, 2008 12:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Billy Beane thinks Jack Hannahan

is a major league third baseman.

They're called RUNS for a reason.

by connie mack on Nov 20, 2008 3:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

And he is-- defensively

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 21, 2008 8:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Which is nice.... as far as it goes

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 21, 2008 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

CHONE's numbers are not park adjusted

It’s based on zone rating, RZR, his own TotalZone system, and Tango’s fans’ scouting reports, with the scouting reports getting the progressively less weight for players with more zone data.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 20, 2008 9:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't see how this is really an issue

DeJesus played left a lot last year when Gathright was in center. I assume they’ll just have DeJesus in left and Crisp in center this year. That’s not particularly inspiring, but DeJesus won’t be sitting down very much I don’t think.

by thejd44 on Nov 20, 2008 10:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The issue is that

this shouldn’t simply be DDJ to left, Crisp > Gathright, Royals win. The issue is that the Royals were stupid to play Gathright in CF in 2008.

This should be whether the Royals should get help for their fetish with DDJ in left, leave him in CF, and go and find a slugger for LF. Their offense sucks.

Yes, Crisp is clearly better than Gathright. And if you’re only looking it that way, yeah, this is a nice move.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 20, 2008 11:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If you REALLY want cookoo

the Giants are making an offer for CC Sabathia between the 100MM-140MM range.

LOL @ Brian Sabean.

It wouldn’t top the Yanks’ offer, but if the whole shebang about CC wanting to play on the West Coast is true…

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 19, 2008 1:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

source

is here, yall

…

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 19, 2008 1:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Beats the hell out of what they gave Zito.

Sabathia is actually a good pitcher.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 19, 2008 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

With the way Milwaukee used Sabathia

I wouldn’t be surprsied to see a Zito-like collapse over the next couple years.

by thejd44 on Nov 19, 2008 1:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

I don’t think Zito collapsed as much as he just got figured out, though, an effect that was exacerbated by loss of confidence it caused.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 19, 2008 1:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

and loss of his fastball...

'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 19, 2008 1:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

and his complete inability to throw his curve for strikes

Which murdered the high fastball, which used to be a major swing-and-miss pitch for him (because hitters would think it was a curve that was going to drop into the zone … now they know if it starts out high it’s going to be a ball regardless if it’s a fastball or curve and just don’t swing).

Though that probably follows more into being figured out as jeepers notes. Personally I don’t think the loss of a few mph has been nearly as devastating as hitters’ realization that he can’t throw his curve for strikes.

by jdr on Nov 19, 2008 2:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

whats funny is not only did his average fastball speed drop precipitously from 87.3 in '05 to 84.9 in '08,

but he also began throwing his fastball AND curve less often this year than in years past. In fact, he threw his curveball 16.8% of the time this year, his lowest total ever according to FanGraphs. The Giants are going to probably end up releasing him in another year or two once he continues to slip further. That sucks for Sabean. Also, the G’s are talkin about signing Sabathia to a huge deal, which would probably end up making Zito and Sabathia = 40% of their total payroll. If I’m a Giants fan, I think I start asking the owner for a new GM, pronto.

'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 19, 2008 8:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Funny Story: Sabean was signed to an extension LAST SEASON.

omg i m ded of lulz.

by mikev on Nov 19, 2008 11:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Zito got really, really lucky during a lot of his time in Oakland.

His peripherals and his results really looked different.

Good defense and a pitcher’s wet dream can do that to you

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 19, 2008 5:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Zito was "lucky" for long enough to indicate that it wasn't luck

The “convergence point” for pitchers’ BABIP is about seven seasons, and Zito has played 8 with a BABIP of .273, which suggests that he has a legitimate skill at retiring batters on balls in play.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 19, 2008 7:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Just curious - how does this square with the insistence

that pitchers basically have no control over balls put in play? I don’t see how the two concepts can coexist.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 22, 2008 1:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

In other words, if Zito can do it how does he do it,

and why can’t “many others” do it?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 22, 2008 1:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

he wasn't so much lucky in oakland as he actually had better "stuff" in oakland. you could argue that he was lucky towards the end of his tenure in Oakland

and I would readily agree, especially his last year here. But i’m pretty sure that at one point in his career, he was actually quite good, its just that he peaked early and declined continuously since then.

'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 19, 2008 8:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

People go cuckoo for Coco Puffs, not Coco Crisp

Crisp basically is what I hope Rajai Davis can be (except as good as Crisp is defensively, Davis is better). I’m probably shooting too high on Davis’ offensive potential though.

by thejd44 on Nov 19, 2008 1:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

People also like to make fun of Milton Bradley's Game of Life

'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 19, 2008 2:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought it was Cookie Crisp

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 19, 2008 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It's coco puffs

by mikev on Nov 19, 2008 2:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i think they go kooky for cookie crisp

Can't get enough of the Oakland A's or Golden State Warriors? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's and Golden Stat Hoops

by iamawesomer on Nov 19, 2008 3:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Little cookies you can't resist

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Nov 19, 2008 4:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Is that the most ballsy attempt at a "cereal" ever or what?

It’s miniature cookies! Don’t get me wrong here, because I think it’s delicious. But c’mon, who are they kidding. That’s not cereal.

by thejd44 on Nov 19, 2008 10:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But..! But..! Vitamins! Minerals! Part of a balanced breakfast!

What, like 1/1000th of a balanced breakfast?

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Nov 19, 2008 11:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Right, it's the dessert part of the breakfast

by thejd44 on Nov 20, 2008 10:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Crisp isn't necessarily a bad player

He was injured last year. He can be somewhat of a spark at teh beginning of a lineup. However, they’ve gutted their bullpen in trades for mediocre players and now have about as many outfielders as the A’s could throw out there if they wanted.

They’re going to have to trade some of them for bullpen help, which kind of defeats the whole purpose, doesn’t it?

by NateHST on Nov 19, 2008 1:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

teahen anyone?

dont know if they are looking for bp help which A’s have plenty to spare

by Asfan4ever723 on Nov 19, 2008 2:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

teahen... to the A's?

not sure where you see him fitting in.

Save Rajai Davis

by oakinboston on Nov 19, 2008 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't mind Teahen

So long as it was cheap. He used to be able to play league average 3b. If the A’s don’t explore a guy like Adrian Beltre for their 3b hole, guys like Teahen, Hinske (both former A’s), and Branyan are a cheap way to get near league average performance.

I’ve been advocating doing this for Bobby Crosby/Chavez for years. I was one of the advocates of the A’s signing Iwamura, and Alexei Ramirez, and Branyan before he signed with the Brewers. Those have all worked out perfectly. I wouldn’t expect that kind of success all the time, but it’s definitely worked for teams who tried it.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 19, 2008 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

almost everywhere

1b/3b/corner OF

by Asfan4ever723 on Nov 19, 2008 3:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But I'm not sure Teahen is better than the A's options at any of those positions

Except, maybe, third. And I’m not willing to give up Jeff Gray to find out. That’s how unsure I am that Teahen would be better than even Hannahan.

by thejd44 on Nov 19, 2008 10:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah thats kind of what i was thinking.

hoping somebody with time could have laid out the numbers

Save Rajai Davis

by oakinboston on Nov 20, 2008 5:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Numbers shumbers

It’s much easier to make blanket statements that may or may not have any basis in fact. I learned that from Joe Morgan.

by thejd44 on Nov 20, 2008 10:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

David Eckstein for MVP

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 20, 2008 10:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I haven't read your comment but I think it's wrong

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 22, 2008 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

as long as it costs little in value, which should be easy considering Moore's latest moves...

'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 19, 2008 8:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I really like the BtB take

Here.

Basically, it’s a fair deal talent wise, but a stupid move for the Royals, since Crisp will do nothing to help them turn their franchise around.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 19, 2008 2:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I didn't read the article

But it’s only a stupid move if one of these is true.

A) Ramirez could’ve either developed into an absolute stud
B) Ramirez could’ve gotten them much more in another deal
C) Crisp’s contract is preventing them from making FA deals (or trades that take on contracts) they otherwise would’ve made
D) Crisp is blocking a real stud prospect

The only one of these I think could be true is the first, and giving up a stud reliever isn’t really going to set you back any.

by thejd44 on Nov 19, 2008 10:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But the point is that players like Crisp (low upside, no longer especially young) are exactly what the Royals don't need

What they need is to develop a farm system so that there is at least some hope on the horizon.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 19, 2008 11:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But how does this move prevent that?

This is different from the stupid Jacobs deal because Crisp actually probably improves the outfield whereas Jacobs not only likely didn’t improve first base, he’s now blocking two prospects.

I don’t think this is an especially terrible deal. It is, however, kind of a meh deal for them. It’s always possible they’ll be able to flip him at midseason to a contender who needs a CF.

by thejd44 on Nov 20, 2008 10:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Because they traded something of present value for something of no future value

So unless they turn around and trade Crisp for prospects (which looks unlikely) the trade went in the wrong direction.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 20, 2008 10:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

How much value

does Ramon Ramirez really have? Given that relievers are so volatile. They aren’t fungible, but for most of them, their performances fluctuate tremendously. A year ago, Grant Balfour was crap, getting beaten around in Milwaukee. This year, he is phenomenal, having raised his K rate to insane levels, while cutting his walk rate.

And Ramirez himself isn’t exactly all that consistent. For all we know, this might have been the best that Moore could get for Ramirez. Then why not keep him? Because it’s possible, even likely, that this was a career year for him.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 20, 2008 11:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sure, if they move Crisp for prospects it becomes fine

But having Crisp on their team is silly.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 21, 2008 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

How does one player block 2 prospects?

Is Jacobs a combination of Sabathia and Prince Fielder? And Ka’aihue had one great season in the minors. Every other year, he’s been mediocre.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 20, 2008 11:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

When Jacobs is holding a runner on at first base,

he can touch second base with his right foot. Yes, he is exactly that large and wide.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 22, 2008 1:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

there's a reason why the royals have sucked forever...

"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra

by Cheezombie on Nov 19, 2008 3:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

which gets me thinking, who has the longest futility streak in the majors?

the Nats/Expos, Pirates, and Royals are the first teams that come to mind. I’m wondering a) which team has the longest streak of missing the playoffs and b) which team has the longest streak of being under .500 (strike shortened seasons do not count). When I get time, i guess I will look this up unless anyone knows it off of the top of their head.

'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 19, 2008 8:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The 2003 Royals won 83 games

The Nats were .500 in 2005. The Expos were 83-79 in 2003.

The PIrates haven’t been over .500 since 1992.

by thejd44 on Nov 19, 2008 10:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

shoot

I forgot about the Expos in ‘03. I miss them. And bud Selig is going to start bringing up ’contraction’ again if the Pirates don’t get it together…or maybe not.

'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 20, 2008 6:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs