Athletics Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: Backing the Pack for NC State Fans!


spread the word

Padres GM Kevin Towers pens bestseller: "How to Bungle a Trade Negotiation"

With the Cubs reportedly close to an agreement with Ryan Dempster to re-sign for 4 years and slightly more than $50 million, they appear to have removed themselves from the Jake Peavy sweepstakes. 

This has put the Padres in the awkward position of cycling back to a team that had essentially already removed itself - the Braves. 

Huh?

Let's review these events, in analogy form:

  1. Kevin Towers asked his dream girl, Atlanta, to the dance over the loud speaker on the morning announcements.
  2. Atlanta publicly said no.
  3. Kevin asked three other girls, who came back with, "I have a hair appointment," "My cat is sick," and "I don't like to dance."
  4. Kevin returns to girl #1, beaming, and says, "Good news - I can still go with you!"

In spite of this post's Onion-y title, Towers has in fact been anything but a best seller in the past month, perhaps damaging his perception both within the game and among fans.

I doubt you'll see him on a list of the game's top 5 GM's again anytime soon.  This saga has been a blueprint in "How to Mis-manage a Trade Negotiation".

Step 1:
1. Inaccurately evaluate the market for your player. Towers, like many Padre fans, wanted a Dan Haren quality-package, while ignoring that Haren had a much more team-friendly contract and LACKED A NO-TRADE CLAUSE.  When all 29 teams aren't eligible to even acquire the player, that has to reduce the expected return.

2.  Openly, publicly pursue trade negotiations involving a player who has a no-trade clause.  Paradoxically, player became more powerful than management in this entire situation, and everyone ended up with egg on their face as the Padres and Towers were essentially subservient to Peavy. To some fans, it made Peavy look petulant and the Padres look arrogant.

3.  Alienate every team involved by publicly scoffing at the offers that are coming in, and announcing which teams are "lucky enough" to be in the bidding. 

This could have been handled discreetly and effectively, and it wasn't.

The blame lies mostly with Towers:

1)  He thought he could get a Dan Haren-quality package for Peavy, and 2)  he thought that he should open up the bidding to every team possible first and then try to get Peavy's blessing for that particular team afterward, rather than covertly getting Peavy's blessing and then quietly engaging 1-2 teams only to avoid media leaks.

How can we speculate as to those two things?  If you've followed the entire saga daily on mlbtraderumors, you know that several of the supposed offerings from various teams have slipped out, and you've already read a nauseating number of Jake Peavy quotes about which teams he'd like to play for, which teams he doesn't like, etc. 

None of that - none! - should have ever happened.  It implies that the team had to go back and forth to Peavy more than once, seeking approval for this team or that team, after fielding offers.  At one point Peavy and his agent even expressed displeasure about the possibility of the Braves losing Yunel Escobar, because Peavy would be joining a team weakened by Escobar's departure. 

The Padres and Towers' motive - extracting maximum value - is entirely logical.  But it looks like they've overplayed their hand and suffered the consequences of seeking as many bids as possible - multiple media leaks, embarrassment, and alienation from their best trade partners in terms of logical fit...and they still haven't consummated a deal.

How could, or perhaps should, this have gone?

  1. "Jake, let's be honest: we aren't going to be a championship team for a while, and you deserve to play for a champion.  We don't even need to ask you about Houston, since we already know they aren't a good match in terms of prospects*, but which other two teams would you most like to play for if you weren't a Padre?"  (The team should already know this answer - it's asked for Peavy's benefit).
  2. "Uh...the Cubs and Braves, contenders closer to home."
  3. "And would you accept a trade to those two teams, Jake?"
  4. "Only if they make the option year at the end of my contract guaranteed."
  5. "Ok, Jake. We promise to only engage those two teams, to keep our discussions private to avoid an embarrassing Brian Giles incident,  and we promise that, IF we can reach a deal with those two teams, your option year will be guaranteed.  We also promise to have the entire situation wrapped up in two weeks, max.  In exchange, though, can we ask that you keep this between us and out of the press?"
  6. "Sure."
  7. "Ok. So, we will be negotiating with those two teams privately over the next two weeks.  You won't be reading about it in the press, the other players involved will be confidential, and we might not have updates for a while.  But the whole thing will be handled in the next two weeks, and by then you'll know if you're be wearing a Padres, Cubs, or Braves uniform next spring."

 

*(The Astros' public involvement is, to me, the part that shows the least foresight.  It was illogical to ever start dialogue with any team lacking prospects).

If these trade talks had played out in the manner of the hypothetical conversation above, it would've allowed Towers to negotiate freely, quietly and productively between two legitimate and serious suitors, rather than play a big game of  "Telephone" for three weeks with reporters, Peavy, and a few AL teams Peavy didn't want to play for anyway.

 

As an A's fan, there are two things that stick out in my mind as I reflect upon the Peavy saga and how it has unfolded:

1.  I have a greater appreciation of Billy Beane.  He has been in the middle of two of the highest-profile trades made in the last three years, and the media has barely heard a whisper of either one of them before them before they happened.  Both trades shocked even the most hardcore A's fans - which is probably good sign - it means info wasn't leaked, and that negotiations were smooth, quick, and respectful.  That reflects the very high level of preparation in the A's front office. I also didn't hear even one player complaint in the aftermath of either trade from anyone involved.

2.  When a player has a full no-trade clause, it can potentially wreak havoc on a long-term reloading/rebuilding plan.  It clouds the logical baseball power structure between management and player, and hinders the GM's ability to effectively do his job.  The Peavy situation represents perfectly why I would rather give a player millions of dollars beyond the typical offer, rather than a full no-trade clause.  (hence my proposal for a Furcal offer that's perceived as being significantly above-market). 

Jason Kendall and Mark Kotsay have proved that you can almost always extract some future value from a player who is underperforming his contract, so long as he doesn't have a full NTC, if you're willing to eat some or all of the player's contract.

To me, overpaying by a few million dollars far outweighs the risk of a situation that resembles Peavy/Padres unfolding a few years from now.  It's clearly affecting the team's off-season and even long-term plans, and perhaps also hurting goodwill with their fanbase, which will cost San Diego at the ticket gates. 

 

22 recs | Comment 132 comments | Share on Facebook Digg!

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Great post NSJ

Good points throughout and I can’t say enough about how Billy Beane continues to stay ahead of the curve (mostly). I think many of us A’s fans take Billy and the front office for for granted. The last couple of years have been lean for sure and very frustrating as well. However, I’m seeing the club reload, rebuild, and continue to try and keep this team competitive, and I’m really excited to see what happens next!

Again, great post NSG!

by mrod on Nov 18, 2008 5:42 PM PST reply reply actions actions   1 recs

+1

-.5

Save Rajai Davis

by oakinboston on Nov 18, 2008 6:17 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank you both for those kind words.

"I'll make a list for the record. These people should be trusted: Sal, andeux, rfloh, danny...and no one else. Certainly not me. And even extra super-certainly not NSJ."

by notsellingjeans on Nov 18, 2008 6:20 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was impressed that it had 3 comments and 6 recommendations

at one point. And it was good too.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 18, 2008 6:21 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not So Good?

Or Not Selling Genes?

Or Nomo Sodium Glutamate (enhances your food but takes forever to get delivered).

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 18, 2008 6:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's just a friendly reminder to fufill your goat needs elsewhere.

At least until San Francisco passes prop G, enabling NSJ’s transformation from NSG into ISG.

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Nov 18, 2008 6:33 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Given their dietary habits,

I thought goats were covered in Proposition Ate.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 18, 2008 8:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

NSJ is Nico Sans Goat?

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Nov 19, 2008 8:24 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One of the better front office articles I've ever read ...

{gold clap}

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Nov 19, 2008 2:19 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ocho Cinco pens...

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Nov 18, 2008 6:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

...and then sings their famous cover of "Hazy Shade of Winter Meetings"

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Nov 18, 2008 8:36 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

likewise

she is still extremely hot.

by AEP2007 on Nov 19, 2008 5:14 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

TCIUWOP.

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Nov 19, 2008 8:25 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Susanna Hoffs

= B.I.L.F.

"I'm more into going home and being horizontal" - Lew Wolff

by bvank on Nov 19, 2008 12:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

personally, I was always more partial to GGILFs

I also have a pretty high shame threshold. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Nov 19, 2008 12:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Golden Gates you'd...

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 19, 2008 1:02 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bea?

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Nov 19, 2008 1:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Combining the two ideas in your post

Beane needs to call both parties and say “Hey guys, I can dig you both out of this and give you [Atlanta] the stud pitcher you want.”

It’d cost Cahill or Anderson, but it would be 100% worth it.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 18, 2008 6:11 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What are you proposing?

Cahill, Rodriguez, Mazzaro, Coleman, Gorkys and Morton to Padres
Yunel to A’s
Peavy to Braves?

That’s pretty close to the Haren package.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 18, 2008 6:19 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Take out one of Coleman or Mazarro.

and you’ve got a deal.

Although the A’s come out on top of that one, big time, but that’s good.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 6:21 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wait till January and trade him as a PTBNL.

I’m pretty sure if the offer was discussed and pegged beforehand, the teams would wait to finalize and go through the official papers and stuff until January.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 10:57 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A similar value guy might be Demel

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 18, 2008 11:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You don't need a dentist if you have one of those...

…I tell you what!

"I have more questions after these."-WaddellCanseco

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 19, 2008 11:31 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dremel, baby, Dremel!

I also have a pretty high shame threshold. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Nov 19, 2008 11:48 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not to be confused with what Stockton Ports fans chant at the end of games

“Demel, baby, Demel!”

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 20, 2008 8:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Or take out Cahill as a whole

and add another A"s prospect.

Cahill-Rodriguez-Mazarro-Coleman is stiff for Escobar, and those four + Gorkys + Morton is way too steep for Peavy.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 6:25 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wasn't the rumor already Yunel, Gorkys and Morton for Peavy before the Padres balked?

I’m just wondering what it takes to get Yunel from the Padres.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 18, 2008 6:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was.

I still think Cahill-Rodriguez-Mazarro-Coleman is too much for Escobar though.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 6:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmmm...let's see

It looks like Yunel is about 25 runs better than C. Izturis on offense and a bit worse on defense (but a lot younger so that should converge). So let’s say 2 wins better overall. Are CRMC really 2 WAR? To me yes, but that’s because I love Cahill and really like Henry and Vinny. I’m not sure what the market value is though. Coleman is mid-upside lottery ticket — like a lottery ticket with a $500K max or something.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 18, 2008 6:36 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Are CRMC really 2 WAR?"

That’s definitely gotta be a QOTM.

I also have a pretty high shame threshold. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Nov 19, 2008 12:34 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep

I seriously doubt you’d need that much for Escobar (and, of course, Peavy isn’t going to get a Haren haul for many reasons anyway)

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 18, 2008 6:36 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Add in Kouzmanoff for the A's and you have a deal

The left side of our infeid would be set. If Chavey is healthy he plays first. I would give up Cahill-Rodriguez-Mazarro-Coleman for Escobar-Kouzmanoff. Tell me that is not a win-win-win for all three teams.

"AN, Reducing Work Productivity since 2003", connie mack 11/06/08

by adragon on Nov 19, 2008 12:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Loss for the A's, IMO.

I keep Cahill out of the deal unless its an absolute deal-breaker and deal from the position of depth (offer quantity but no elite guys, although top pieces like Mazarro, H-Rod, etc. are in).

Adding Kouz into the deal isn’t enough incentive to give up Cahill.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 19, 2008 12:52 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pretty much saying, if the A's can get an Escobar deal done without Anderson/Cahill

they should do it. If one of Anderson/Cahill have to be in such a deal, then do it, but don’t give up any other top SP prospects in such a deal.

Avoid the whole “Padres add another piece to get Cahill” shebang.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 19, 2008 12:53 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What would it take for the A's to acquire Peavy instead?

Hmmm………I know Peavy does not want to come to the AL if he can avoid it, but I wonder if Billy has even entertained the thought of jumping in and playing Jedi Mind Trick with the GM’s from Atl and SD?.

Just a thought.

by mrod on Nov 18, 2008 6:17 PM PST reply reply actions actions   1 recs

I'd rather the A's spend their long term resources on offense

since if they can’t fill out a rotation with what’s on its way in terms of farm system by 2010-2011, we’re in deep shit anyways.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 6:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But while we are all fantasizing about possible deals

I thought why not throw Peavy’s name into the mix….??? ya know….just off the cuff fun stuff.

by mrod on Nov 18, 2008 6:30 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I love this post, NSJ.

Personally, anything more than Yunel for Peavy straight up is already tipped in favor of the Padres. And it makes zero sense for the Braves. Absolutely zero.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 6:30 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So Towers out incompetented Wren?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 18, 2008 6:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

huh?

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 6:32 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're saying Wren agreed to a bad deal, but Towers took it back and now may have to

take a worse deal.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 18, 2008 6:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, exactly.

Lapse of understanding on my part. My bad.

Towers should’ve taken the Yunel/Gorkys/Morton deal, if offered, and then if he wanted more/better pitching, flip Yunel to another team for a haul. Especially with how much it will probably cost for a team to get Furcal.

I really need another cigarette.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 6:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A Cy Young award winning pitcher is going to take more then a 25 year old shortstop who is still

unproven. Only having to give up Escobar to get Peavy would have been a fantastic deal for the Braves. Also, how does trading for Peavy make zero sense for the Braves? They desprately need pitching. Right now they have one legit starter that’s guaranteed to be on the team next year.

by Erin6 on Nov 18, 2008 7:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yunel is pretty proven.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 18, 2008 7:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Counting in his injury time, he's probably played a full season. I think he's very talented, but

after watching him play everyday, he’s very spacey during games. he makes a lot of mental mistakes. It was also said that his attitude might have bothered Bobby Cox, so that’s another reason why he was included in the trade.

by Erin6 on Nov 18, 2008 8:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In that case I reduce my offer to just Cahill for Yunel. We have to put up with his

spaciness and mental mistakes and attitude. The Braves should consider themselves lucky to get the best pitching prospect in all of baseball who’s pitched above A ball but not the World Series.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 18, 2008 8:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd even throw in Crosby.

But that would mean giving them Mazzaro instead of Cahill.

by mikev on Nov 18, 2008 8:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd do a package based on volume.

Mazarro, H-Rod, a top prospect, and Coleman.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 10:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think they'd do it without Cahill or Anderson. At least I wouldn't.

I’d need at least one premium lower risk guy who’s the centerpiece of the deal. Gio wouldn’t be enough for me either. I’m not a big Cardenas fan and Carter isn’t low risk. Maybe Weeks if they waited a year.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 18, 2008 11:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd still focus on quantity over quality if I were Towers

Not put all your chips in one basket.

Starting off the deal with one of Mazarro or Simmons, if I’m Towers, Simmons is preferred, and then add a few pieces in

Cahill for Yunel Escobar straight up is pleasant, although I’d rather give up quantity than Cahill straight up.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 11:40 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're taking Erin6's assessment of Yunel Escobar's play seriously?

Impressively ingenuous.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 19, 2008 9:44 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I watch him play every day. The guy is extremely talented, but has forgotten more then once

to throw the ball home as the cut off man. His spaciness has cost the Braves games, and his attitude has cost himself games due to injury. I’m not sure why my assesment of him is being mocked by you.

by Erin6 on Nov 19, 2008 2:03 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When you

argue that player A is better at getting on base than player B, despite a 20 point gap in player B’s favor, that really tends to make me doubt your competence as a baseball analyst.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 19, 2008 3:20 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh so you mean when I don't completely rely on stats to analyze a player, and when I don't agree with you.

Stats don’t always tell the whole story, but I guess statheads like you can’t understand that. Is Escobar talented? absolutely. Will he most likely have a great career? probably. However what doesn’t show up in the stats is simple things like forgetting that you are the cutoff man or forgetting to throw the ball home on a relay as well as other mental mistakes that he makes quite often. What also doesn’t show up in the stats is Bobby Cox being fed up with a player’s attitude. I never once said that Escobar wasn’t a good player. I said he was spacey with a bad attitude.

by Erin6 on Nov 19, 2008 3:36 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that wasn't quite her argument if you look back at that thread

The comment you referenced only stated that she could deal with Sweeney’s lack of power because, even without it, she likes that he has a good on-base percentage and rarely strikes out. She did not say directly that Sweeney is better at getting on base than Swisher (at least I didn’t find it).

But was seemed to draw her the most criticism was the statement that she’d rather have Sweeney than Swisher right now. Of course it’s reasonable to disagree, but I certainly wouldn’t call the contrarian view point a slam dunk. A few people "LOL"d at it, which is hard to defend.

Sweeney has five more years of contractual control compared to two(?) years of Swisher. He’s also dirt-cheap for the next two seasons. He’s also in fantastic shape, whereas Swisher appears to have gained 20 not-useful pounds in the last two years (not that there’s anything wrong with that, fellow ANers). And when people offer rebuttal by pointing out Swisher’s career OPS+, that’s a bit deceptive, because he’s already in his peak and Sweeney still has some projection left.

Bottom line, pick your stat, but Swisher will very likely record less WSAB, WAR, etc. over the remainder of his current contract than Sweeney will over the next five years. For a person to argue they’d rather have Sweeney is not stupid. Debatable? Sure.

And whether or not you trust her competence as an analyst, she provided some very good information and I’m glad she was here for the discussion. I had never read anything about concerns with Escobar’s work ethic or him having problems with Bobby Cox. That’s good info.

"I'll make a list for the record. These people should be trusted: Sal, andeux, rfloh, danny...and no one else. Certainly not me. And even extra super-certainly not NSJ."

by notsellingjeans on Nov 19, 2008 3:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wow, dangerous wording

“Bottom line pick your stat”…

Allow me to amend: What I mean by that is, what the two players accomplish over the remainder of their current contracts will almost certainly favor Sweeney, thanks to the additional years of contractual control.

"I'll make a list for the record. These people should be trusted: Sal, andeux, rfloh, danny...and no one else. Certainly not me. And even extra super-certainly not NSJ."

by notsellingjeans on Nov 19, 2008 4:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I REALLY doubt that, actually

Swisher is under contract for 3 more years with an option for a fourth.

As for the original complaint, let me just add that when I hear “work ethic” and a Latin ballplayer in the same sentence, I tend to pretty much dismiss the comment, unless the guy is obviously a fatso like Miguel Cabrera. Apparently his “laziness” didn’t stop him from playing exceptional defense… which normally doesn’t do much for a player’s paycheck or reputation.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 19, 2008 4:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well I actually never said anything about his work ethic or his lack of it.

I said he was spacey. He makes a lot of mental mistakes that cost the Braves.

by Erin6 on Nov 19, 2008 4:18 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Whatever, man

I’m a fan of the “flipgatey” philosophy. If you play plus D at shortstop with gap power and a .380 OBP, you can smoke a frigging joint in the dugout between every half inning for all I care.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 19, 2008 7:15 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

I'm just confused as to what we are really arguing about though.

Your posts seem to indicate that I’m saying he’s not a good player when that’s not the case at all. Escobar is very talented and will most likely have a very few career. All I did was point out some of his flaws that I saw from watching him everyday.

by Erin6 on Nov 19, 2008 8:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Either these "flaws" affect his value or they don't...

If they don’t, they’re irrelevant. He’s not being recruited as troop leader for the Padres Boy Scouts.

If he blows two cutoff plays a year, and each of those plays would have had a 50% chance of stopping a run, that’s only worth one run a season. That’s trivial for two reasons— first, one run is noise in the context of a full season, and second, it’s not enough data to indicate an actual pattern of behavior. Maybe he just had a couple of bad days.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 19, 2008 11:41 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I do agree with that, but it's not just missing two cutoff plays

a year. Watching him everyday, I’ve noticed a lot of mental mistakes, and maybe it’s because he’s young. He could very well grow out of these mistakes. I was just pointing out some flaws he has and why they Braves might be willing to trade him.

by Erin6 on Nov 20, 2008 6:16 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My mistake on the contract

While that dimishes the point, Sweeney is still under control for longer and at a much cheaper rate.

I definitely appreciate your point re “laziness”, having heard that complaint too often fall on racial lines in MLB. I was interpreting from Erin that the comment had come from a team official or coach, which would give it far more weight than if it had come from, say, a fan or journalist.

"I'll make a list for the record. These people should be trusted: Sal, andeux, rfloh, danny...and no one else. Certainly not me. And even extra super-certainly not NSJ."

by notsellingjeans on Nov 19, 2008 4:20 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

PT says Erin6 is a racist whose comments aspire to be Morgan-esque.

Erin6 says PT is a lying scumbag who ascribes vicious lies to others in an attempt to discredit their arguments.

Who is correct? The choice is yours, it is being recorded.

(typed with tongue fully embedded in cheek)

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Nov 19, 2008 5:28 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

BAN DEVO NOW!!!!!!11

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 19, 2008 5:52 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where's the poll?

I can’t vote without the poll, man!

I just realized that every one of these comments is keeping me from my Rickey post. I hope no one sees this.

P.S. Whose cheek?

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Nov 20, 2008 6:07 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thank you for chiming in :)

"I'll make a list for the record. These people should be trusted: Sal, andeux, rfloh, danny...and no one else. Certainly not me. And even extra super-certainly not NSJ."

by notsellingjeans on Nov 19, 2008 4:21 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I never said trading for Peavy made zero sense for the Braves.

I haven’t heard too much about Yunel’s attitude besides that he’s rather brash and has fire (which can translate to good and bad things on the field.

I never said that trading for Peavy made zero sense for the Braves. I said that giving up Escobar in a Peavy deal made zero sense. The Braves don’t have some top SS prospect (barring Lilibridge, but he’s struggling). You don’t create a hole, and pay more money/prospects (whether it be for Peavy or to pick up a SS via FA) to fill a hole. If the Braves are going to make a Peavy deal, they should do it with their farm system. Which I’m pissed that they gave half of it to the goddamn Rangers, for obvious reasons.

And, if Yunel is in a Peavy deal, I will bet that he will be flipped or a 3rd team will be involved. He should absolutely be flipped, because there are so many teams looking for SS, and the Padres need a group of prospects who can contribute later MUCH more than they need just that one SS.

The Braves desperately need pitching, that is correct. The Braves also have a farm system, and about 40MM to spend. And a protected first round draft pick. They have so many other options, whether it be some sort of trade (depending on who’s available), or a free agent signing. If they could get Peavy, great. If they have to create a new hole to get him? Not so great.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 10:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Braves were prepared to go after Furcal or Renteria. they didn't want to

to just use their farm system because most likely they would have had to give up Tommy Hanson, Heyward, or Flowers and those guys are pretty much untouchable. The Padres were looking for an upgrade at SS, and the Braves could provide them with that. If you just use your farm system, then you end up having the same problem you did after the Texiera trade. The Braves won’t be making that mistake again.

by Erin6 on Nov 19, 2008 8:27 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They're still spending more money if they sign Furcal/Renteria

They give up Yunel + 1-2 prospects (Gorkys? Morton?) for Peavy, who costs much more than Yunel.

Then, they sign Furcal/Renteria, and pay more money.

Wouldn’t they have been better off keeping the prospects, keeping Yunel, and spending that money on a FA SP (Peavy + Furcal/Renteria will easily cost more than a FA SP not named CC).

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 19, 2008 9:15 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Peavy >>> any FA SP not named CC

Would be the logic.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 19, 2008 10:12 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Braves have money to spend though. When you have a chance to get a young

Cy Young award winning pitcher for the next 4 years you do it. Especially when they could do it without depleting their farm system, and when they desprately need a number one starter.

by Erin6 on Nov 19, 2008 11:00 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmm?

If the Braves have money to spend, why are they giving up talent? Why not just spend the money AND hold on to the young talent? The reason they are giving up young talent is because they don’t have enough money to after guys like Sabathia.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 19, 2008 11:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I somewhat don't understand the logic behind them trading for Peavy

unless they really think they can make off like bandits in the trade which means not trading Yunel. I will waver from original position and say Yunel for Peavy might be tipped in favor of the Braves slightly, although its still quintessentially even.

The Braves have the money for a Sabathia-type commitment. The biggest contract they have on the books is Chipper. The rest of the big stuff is off the books. But, that doesn’t mean they’ll do it. Maybe erring away from long, macho contracts. The Braves went through all the Burnett/Sheets injury limbo with Hampton. They don’t want that again. Garland sucks, as does Oliver Perez. Matt Cain and Zack Greinke are probably not available. Peavy is the most ideal pitcher for their situation, outside of Lowe, and competition will be stiff for Lowe. And, he’s like 35. They’re giving up young prospects to guarantee that they’ll have a good pitcher when all is said and done, and one who is much healthier than Sheets/Burnett.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 20, 2008 12:49 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I bet Grienke's available for a prospect package.

The Rangers make sense with their 4 catchers.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 20, 2008 5:21 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought his name was Timmy Hudson.

99 MPH with as much control as a deflating balloon - CurveballKing on H-Rod

by Scottbass on Nov 19, 2008 12:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Quick, look over your head...

99 MPH with as much control as a deflating balloon - CurveballKing on H-Rod

by Scottbass on Nov 19, 2008 2:45 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

woooosh

The 2009 A's draft pick... getting higher every game.

by rebus on Nov 19, 2008 2:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don’t get it.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 19, 2008 6:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've got one more to last the night.

Or however long it takes to go get more.

Hmm…now or later…hmm…

And a paper to write, so can’t sleep the cravings/withdrawals off.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 7:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What's with the Padres?

Excellent Post NSJ.
IMO, their organization as a whole has gone downhill since Alderson arrived. Alderson finds himself in another no-win situation, ala the 1997 A’s. The Padres appear to be currently disorganized, dysfunctional & mishandled.
They do have an outstanding stadium. My sister-in-law is a long-time season ticket holder & once in a while we get to go down & see them. Petco has to be in the top 5 of all stadiums. This is their saving grace.

As a non Padre fan, I look at how they have treated T. Hoffman. This man has been pretty much lights out. They lowballed him & then reneged on their initial contract offer. Moores needs to get his head out of his rear, sell out & move on. They want to get their payroll down to the lowest level of the 2008 A’s. We all know that’s not going to get them anywhere. Their farm system is middling & they have an obvious need for low cost talent.

We have traded three-fifths of our starters. We obviously have alot of flexibility right now to add an established starter. If Beane could get Peavy at a reduced cost in prospects, why not. I believe Towers is going to find himself in an untenable position. The no trade clause for Peavy is biting him in the ass right now. Just like NSJ stated, other teams like dealing with Beane because a transaction is handled professionally, is low-key & is organized.
Does Peavy fit into the Beane philosophy of a player / market segment who can be acquired at a deflated or fair cost, instead of an inflated cost? We will find out in the next month or so.

by alpine26 on Nov 18, 2008 7:38 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"gone downhill"

Even if we focus only on player relations, think about this: Hoffman, Peavy, the Giles no-trade clause/waiver claim from August becoming public and awkward…that’s three very public P.R. black eyes in the span of less than six months! And it happened with their three most iconic players. Ouch.

I agree with you alpine, there’s a few big problems there, starting with the owner on down. And what makes their situation even more dire is that their fan base isn’t a huge, “we’ve been with the team for decades, my Grandpa took me to Padres and I’ll take my grandkids” group. I could see them losing several thousands of fans off their average attendance next year.

"I'll make a list for the record. These people should be trusted: Sal, andeux, rfloh, danny...and no one else. Certainly not me. And even extra super-certainly not NSJ."

by notsellingjeans on Nov 18, 2008 7:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Plus the Hoffman situation was handled unnecessarily badly

It would have cost the Padres no money and no players to treat him with respect and appreciation while not re-signing him. Duh.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 18, 2008 8:57 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That sounded more like Moore's fault than Alderson's though

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 18, 2008 9:18 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I really think it was Moores.

He really doesn’t appear to give a shit, what with his divorce and all.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 9:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Parachuting in here from Lookout Landing to say this is an excellent post.

Though I must say that as an M’s fan I derive a slight amount of schadenfreudian pleasure from seeing Towers make a hash out of things here. That Padres/M’s trading relationship has always been…bizarre.

P.S. Thanks for the manager.

Patriotism, Pepper, Professionalism

by esoteric on Nov 18, 2008 9:22 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's a good guy, by all accounts

Enjoy.

Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.

by Joey C. on Nov 18, 2008 9:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Your Welcome.

IMHO, Lookout Landing, Mccovey Chronicles & AN are the best baseball blogs. I cannot believe the number of posts you guys get. Over half of the SB baseball sites appear to be ghost towns, where you can actually imagine the tumbleweeds blowing by. They appear to lack the hardcore blog fans the A’s, Giants & Mariners sites have.
If you live in Seattle proper, please enjoy some quality, fresh seafood for me. All we have around where my family & I live are Basque & the usual crappy restaurants. Basque is good if you like to gouge yourself on a seven course meal.

I really don’t know much about Wakamatsu. I can’t believe he will be the fiery, high stress, stomp your hat type, if that matters. Good luck & Good night.

by alpine26 on Nov 18, 2008 10:49 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The ghost towns

aren’t so much that there are no hardcore blog fans of those teams. Just that those hardcore blog fans are on other non SBN blogs.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 18, 2008 11:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here's the thing:

San Diego is by no means SOL here. Peavy has a long-term deal and it’s not like he was demanding to get out of town. Keeping him isn’t such a bad worst-case scenario. The only real mistake here is just how public all of this was. I don’t think Towers screwed up by not making any deals.

by thejd44 on Nov 18, 2008 10:15 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Moores is trying to cut payroll to sell.

The Padres aren’t doing shit in 2009. Or 2010, for that matter. The best thing they can do is extract value that can be useful in 2011 and beyond from a major asset like Peavy.

Peavy is only relatively cheap in 2009, after that, his price tag goes up. You can market him as signed to a below market value deal if you deal him in 2009.

The Padres will get MUCH more dealing Peavy this offseason, or at the trade deadline, than they will trading him next offseason.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 11:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That all sounds good

But, apparently, the Padres can’t get that much for Peavy. Not as much as they thought. I guess my point is there’s no reason to take a Harden-type deal, since they have him for so long that holding out could help. You never know when a team will get desperate. I don’t think the Padres should be desperate to unload him.

Looking at San Diego’s payroll, after 2009 Giles and Greene, two of only 5 guys making more than $1 million per year in 2008, will be off the books. That’s $15+ million. They have a lot of young players and aren’t really in bad payroll shape at all.

by thejd44 on Nov 21, 2008 11:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Interesting post

I mostly agree, and also agree with Blicks on the Escobar deal, but in Towers’ defense, he started in / was put in a really bad position; given that everyone knew about money problems being faced by the owner, and the team president publicly coming out and saying that “fans have to be patient…”.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 18, 2008 11:22 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh yeah. Towers was in a PR nightmare to begin with.

He exacerbated the situation, but he was put in an ugly situation to begin with. No way he escaped this without a PR hellfire, and not only that, but he understands that he HAS to trade Peavy (and Giles somewhat) this offseason. And that cutting about 30MM off payroll is NOT an easy task.
 
Granted the no-trade clauses made it worse (but remember, Giles and Peavy signed below market, and the NTCs probably had a lot to do with that).

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 18, 2008 11:42 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good post.

But, what were the three “highest profiles trades in the last three years” that you mentioned?

still Swish Fan #1.

by ChrisCEIT on Nov 19, 2008 4:42 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Haren, Holliday

Haren because really good pitchers don’t get traded often
Holliday because people were expecting a Holliday-to-someone trade for months now.

NSJ said two of the biggest trades in three years.

Nice icon, btw.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 19, 2008 6:26 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought Swisher was the 3rd

Bob Geren, on 8/2/07, on the success of Alan Embree as new interim closer: "What can I say,... he's been our Steady Tremendous Bullpen Man"

by popcornjames on Nov 19, 2008 11:22 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

gosh.

I read the original post all wrong. I thought he said that “…Beane was part of two of the three highest profile trades over the last three years…”

Off the top of my head, only the Haren trade rates as interesting to the rest of baseball (until this year’s deal for Holliday, of course). Not that I think that Billy Beane isn’t a genius, his dealing just flies a little more under the radar, in my not-so-humble-opinion.

still Swish Fan #1.

by ChrisCEIT on Nov 19, 2008 12:04 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Congrats

on being linked from Rob Neyer http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=neyer_rob

btw for those interested apparently Rob Neyer blogs is free now

Let's have our Piazza and eat the Cust too - SPWC

by closetasfan on Nov 19, 2008 7:35 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Imagine if the A's somehow landed Peavy...

Why didn’t we see this earlier?…

Beane: So Jake, what would it take for you to waive that no-trade clause and come to Oakland? We have the best farm system and we are always competetive.
Peavy: Move the team to South….and get me Matt Holliday. That guy was the only hitter in the NL West that could hit me. He is legit.
Beane: Whatever you need Jake.

Ok, so no, but that would really shed some light on the Holliday acquisition.

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Nov 19, 2008 11:43 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I brought up the idea of getting Peavy

earlier in the thread as well. Slim to none on that happening, but anything is possible, right?

"What would it take for the A’s to acquire Peavy instead?
Hmmm………I know Peavy does not want to come to the AL if he can avoid it, but I wonder if Billy has even entertained the thought of jumping in and playing Jedi Mind Trick with the GM’s from Atl and SD?.

Just a thought."

by mrod on Nov 20, 2008 11:02 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great write up.

Can we have Devine back?

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Nov 20, 2008 10:50 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For Escobar, sure

I have been officially deputized by the A’s to conclude a Devine for Escobar trade if you’re willing.

In all seriousness, though, we would like Escobar (either a Peavy 3-way or straight trade). What’s your reaction?

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 20, 2008 11:09 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m partial to Escobar, personally. Sorry.

I guess I should be one to talk.
There's nights that I can't even walk.
There's days I couldn't give a fuck.
And in between is where I'm stuck.

by Smoltz's Beard on Nov 20, 2008 11:19 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Right, but what would he cost?

(We know Devine isn’t going to do it, but if you were the ATL GM…)

After all, we certainly have the farm system to provide value.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 20, 2008 11:54 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mr. Chainsaw FTW

and, agreeing with what nevermoor said.

In a package for Escobar with some guys from the A’s farm, yes.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 20, 2008 12:51 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank you

and your user name is one of the top three SB Nation user names of all-time, IMO:

They are:
Smoltz’s Beard
tim beckham’s five-tool package
brett wallace’s thick lower half

"I'll make a list for the record. These people should be trusted: Sal, andeux, rfloh, danny...and no one else. Certainly not me. And even extra super-certainly not NSJ."

by notsellingjeans on Nov 20, 2008 2:04 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Swooney's left foot?

Is that #4?

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 20, 2008 2:17 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's a good one

I shouldn’t have left off LongLiveLangerhans. I don’t know what happened to that guy, but that one always makes me smile.

"I'll make a list for the record. These people should be trusted: Sal, andeux, rfloh, danny...and no one else. Certainly not me. And even extra super-certainly not NSJ."

by notsellingjeans on Nov 20, 2008 8:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I find it more than a little amusing that the A's traded Langerhans for former saber-nerd-idol Chris Snelling

and now it’s Langerhans who’s become the new saber-nerd-idol.

Go to Beyond the Boxscore and search for “FAT” if you don’t know what I’m on about.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 20, 2008 8:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if we didn't have a surplus of OF, i'd advocate signing him...

'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 21, 2008 6:38 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hate the "my cat is sick" trick

Especially when I know she has a dog.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Nov 21, 2008 7:19 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good write-up NSJ

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 22, 2008 9:24 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Oakland Athletics.

Community Guidelines ANcillary Terms
Start posting about the Athletics »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
2010 Oakland Athletics: Internal and FA Options
Small
Possible Trade Partners: Giants
Tsgirlbass_th_small
DLD 7/1/09: Less about baseball, more about baseball movies
Small
Possible Trade Partners: St. Louis Cardinals
Tsgirlbass_th_small
DLD 6/30/09: Pardon me if I'm sentimental

Recent FanPosts

Small
A's demands for Holiday
142564582_9b68f505fa_small
GOG 2009 #27
Small
Minor Athletics on vacation -- Minor League Dump
Ziegler160px_small
Quick Texas League All-Star Game Recap
Small
Does Sabean still like gritty veterans?
Small
A'S/Red Sox 2001 classic game on now on A's CSN channel 698 on direct tv
Ph3spec_small
doctorK invades PNC Park
Wormburn_small
A's Ink 3 16 year old Latin Prospects

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini

SPONSORS


Managers

Baseball_small baseballgirl

Poochini-butt_in_box_2_small Nico

As_kings_cal_small louismg

08-_the_author_small 67MARQUEZ

Martin_brodeur_300_small Blez

Ziegler160px_small Flashfire

Editors

Countdown_small Taj Adib

527918550406_0_bg_small notsellingjeans

Authors

P1010266b_small devo

Super_grover_small grover

The_baby_small salb918

Official Partner of Yahoo! Sports