Athletics Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Certifiable: Purdue gets elite win over Tennessee

Staturday: Sussing the Short Stop Strategies

Following the wild bitterly resented by any serious analyst success of the Projecting the Enemy series, I come now to bring you the next edition, dealing with the free agent shortstop class. Should the A's sign Furcal? Who's the best bargain? And what would the position look like if the A's don't sign anybody?

Warning: there is going to be a methodological shift in this post relative to the prior posts. Because this is about player acquisition and not about team projection, we need to compare players to replacement level, NOT to league average. (Replacement level hitting is about 20 runs below league average, although it's more like 30 runs for shortstops, who tend to suck at offense.) Average players have value, because there are not an unlimited number of them. So if you're wondering why Crosby used to be a minus and is now (barely) a plus, that's why.

If you're wondering where I'm getting these numbers, they're formed through a combination of: mental Marcels (a rough weighted average of the player's career with more emphasis given to the most recent years), the projections that have been released for the player (if any), a conversion scale which treats 5 OPS points as worth about 1 run over a full season, and fielding evaluations, principally Sean Smith's fielding projections and Revised Zone Rating (blame it on the fact that I'm too cheap/poor, depending on your opinion of me, to buy access to Plus/Minus).

I'll be dividing this into three sections: free agents, trade acquisitions, and stopgaps. To wit:

Star-divide

Stopgaps

Bobby Crosby (10 RAR offensively, 0 defensively) $5.25M

Hey, we know this guy. He sucks. OK, probably not as much as we like to think he does. But still-- 1 win above replacement is awfully mediocre. He's roughly getting paid what he's worth on the market.

Gregorio Petit (5 RAR offensively, 0 defensively) $400K

Petit isn't totally inept with the stick-- he's had a few solid seasons in the minors-- but his offense is very batting-average based and young players who rely on hitting for average often struggle in their first exposure to big league pitching. So I wouldn't expect wonders. We can safely ignore his MLB numbers from last year as a small-sample fluke.

Defensively, he has the potential to be quite a bit better than average, but right now he's somewhat erratic in his jumps and throws. Again, ideally this is something he could work out in time. I say ideally because Petit appears to be loathed by the front office, who basically did everything they could last season to prevent him from getting consistent playing time.

Cliff Pennington (0 RAR offensively, -5 defensively) $400K

I'm sorry, I simply do not see how Pennington's high minor league walk rates are going to translate to the majors. We've seen what happens to guys with no power-- outfielders cheat way in on them and pitchers just throw gas constantly. Next thing you know you're hitting .194 and getting a ticket back to the minors. Or playing 80 games for the Mariners, I guess. Well, that's not all that hard to do, really.

Free Agents

Rafael Furcal (35 RAR offensively, 0 defensively) 4 years/$55 million

Furcal has been a bit erratic in recent years, but prior to that he had a pretty consistent period of being average at the plate, adding a number of runs with his legs, and being solid in the field. I'm basically figuring that this will continue; he has a career EqA of .271 and if he's healthy there's no reason to expect him to be far from that mark. He is a health risk, so any putative contract needs to build in an insurance policy against a relapse of chronic back problems.

Orlando Cabrera (25 RAR offensively, 0 defensively) 2 years/$18 million

Cabrera's a pure batting-average hitter, with the result that he's had a few fluky-good and fluky-bad seasons while hovering somewhere around "sucky" overall, albeit better than an average shortstop. His glove is good enough to hold down shortstop for another few years, but starting to fray a little. Next year is going to be his age 34 season, so there's a serious collapse risk here.

Edgar Renteria (30 RAR offensively, -10 defensively) 2 years/$15 million

Renteria used to be quite a good player, but his range has really fallen apart lately in the field. At the dish, he has better secondary skills than Cabrera and can take a walk, but he was dismal in 2008 and may not ever recapture the form he showed in 2007 for Atlanta.

One thing I will say-- his AL/NL split looks much more interesting than it is. It simply is not the case that hitters can hit in one league and not in the other. Moving leagues might cost a guy a few runs here and there, but it does not turn him from All-Star to chump.

Cesar Izturis (5 RAR offensively, +10 defensively) 2 years, $5 million

Izturis probably flashes the best glove of any of the free agents this offseason. Unfortunately, the guy cannot hit at all. Neifi Perez, the bete noir of sabermetricians everywhere, has a career OPS some 30 points HIGHER than Izturis does.

Then again, he doesn't look much worse than Renteria and he's going to be a lot cheaper...

Adam Everett (-5 RAR offensively, +10 defensively) 1 year, $2 million

There was a time not long ago when Adam Everett was a fairly crummy but not unacceptable hitter who was also the best defender in all of baseball. His 2006 was interpreted by some fielding metrics as having been as much as 40 runs above average, which is the fielding equivalent of Bondsian. What happened? Well, the Oakland A's happened, actually. A pop-up (natch-- this is the A's we're talking about here), an ugly collision with Carlos Lee, a badly broken leg, and suddenly Everett's tenuous grip on MLB regular status was broken.

He's no longer a realistic option as a starter, in my opinion. His defense is still quality but no longer ridiculously insane, and he's lost what little juice his bat once had.

Nick Punto (10 RAR offensively, 0 defensively) 2 years/$6 million

The 2007 Twins made the mistake of giving Nick Punto 150 games of play; the 2008 Twins cut that back to 99. Note the correlation with those teams' respective winning percentages.

Someone's going to give him some money to be a utility man, but it doesn't need to be the A's.

Omar Vizquel (-10 RAR offensively, +10 defensively) Retire

In case you didn't notice the giant fork sticking out of Vizquel's back: he's done. His goose is cooked. He's no longer capable of making contact with a quality MLB fastball, and I think pretty much everyone recognizes this, even notorious veteranophiliac Brian Sabean. Signing Vizquel would be closer to necrophilia at this point.

Trade Targets

J.J. Hardy (40 RAR offensively, 0 defensively)-- 2nd year arb

Smith likes his defense more than many, but it's certainly no asset. Hardy has a nice bat for a shortstop, though. The problem with him is not his play, which is very good, it's what he's likely to cost. It's hard to see the Brewers moving him for a package that doesn't include one of Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson.

Clint Barmes (20 RAR offensively, +5 defensively)-- 1st year arb

Barmes is one of the most notorious hackers in baseball, but he has some power and knows his way around a glove, which is more than can be said for most of the guys on this benighted list. Surprisingly, he actually turns out to be a decent option. The problem is that the Rockies are liable to ask for something legitimate in trade for him, and he's just not worth that much. He'll be 30 next year.

Omar Quintanilla (10 RAR offensively, +5 defensively)-- 2nd year pre-arb

Hey, here's a blast from the past. The ex-A's farmhand has been viewed as a bust for some time, but has slowly but steadily improved his offense while projecting as a plus fielder. It would have been nice if Beane could have snagged him as a throw-in in the Holliday deal, but no such luck. He's younger than Colorado compatriot Barmes, so there's still some (OK, not much) upside left in him.

Chin-lung Hu (0 RAR offensively, +5 defensively) 1st year pre-arb

Hu delivered a shipment of Fail to the Port of Los Angeles in 2008. He's apparently had an issue with blurred vision; not mentioned by our sources is whether sunscreen was involved in any way... in any event, any A's trade for him needs to be predicated on the notion that they can fix this issue, because he was almost unbelievably bad at the plate this year.

Brent Lillibridge (0 RAR offensively, 0 defensively) 1st year pre-arb

It is, again, hard to overstate the magnitude of Lillibridge's offensive faceplant this season. A .630 OPS... in Triple A? Ouch. The good news is, the Braves can't seriously believe in him at this point... and with Yunel Escobar apparently sticking around, they have no particular reason to need him. Still, he's a reclamation project at this stage.

Miguel Tejada (30 RAR offensively, 0 defensively) 1 year/$13 million

Consecutive years with a sub-800 OPS make it fairly clear that Tejada isn't the player he once was (feel free to speculate as to why that is...), and his dipping power rate is troubling. Also problematic is the weird cratering of his walk rate last season, which dropped by half. As such, I find myself less optimistic about a bounce-back than I thought I would be. Still, at about a .750 OPS and still able to handle the position defensively, Tejada would be a plus option at shortstop.

John McDonald (-10 RAR offensively, +10 defensively) 1 year/$1.9 million

Don't blame me, grover asked me to look him over. McDonald is something of a uniquely bad hitter in that not only does he have no power and little speed, but he's a fly-ball hitter. In Major League Baseball, hitting non-home run flies is not a good strategy. Also not a good strategy: playing John McDonald in your lineup.

If anyone has any additional trade targets of choice, let me know and I'll run the numbers.

5 recs  |  Comment 561 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Hey, "Staturday" is trademarked!

Seriously, nice breakdown. Thanks.

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Nov 15, 2008 2:27 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

PT was contracted by myself to run this post

He has not violated any trademark laws.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 2:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cool list

Lots of interesting stuff. Personally I am of the opinion that the A’s need to stabilize shortstop (aka stop the bleeding aka get Crosby to the bench) more so than acquire “the next great A’s shortstop” this offseason because there just ain’t much out there. I would be very much in favor of trying to acquire a defense-heavy young SS because D is still undervalued – hence more money to go after real bats.

Who does that mean? Hu?

by jdr on Nov 15, 2008 2:30 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

also FWIW

The A’s did spend money on SSs in this years draft – Christian and Coleman. Hopefully somebody steps up down there.

by jdr on Nov 15, 2008 2:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But those two are a couple years away

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 2:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

well yeah

I’m just saying there’s a whole lot of slop available on the SS market right now and I’d rather see them get someone young and blah for cheap than moving on somebody older who might be better but is going to be overpaid. Use that money for a real bat. The next great A’s SS is coming from the farm any way we slice it, it’s just getting to be a very difficult position to fill any other way.

by jdr on Nov 15, 2008 2:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Young and blah?

Sounds like Crosby. Crosby isn’t bad so much as he’s not good. The transaction costs involved in most people on this list (either trade or FA salary plus dealing with Crosby’s $5M) are probably high enough we should just keep him.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 3:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No.....just no.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 6:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm just saying I see 2-3 people on that list who are any kind of real improvement over Crosby

And Furcal is going to be too expensive.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 10:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I see a bunch of people who aren't that expensive to get. So get a bunch of

them and see who wins.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 10:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Marco! Scutaro!

I’ve seen a couple of stats that showed he was actually a pretty valuable player last year. Any thoughts on that?

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 15, 2008 2:32 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

A notoriously bad defensive SS had a fluke good defensive year

Scutaro still isn’t a good everyday option for a team that wants to win lots of games.

by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2008 3:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dial's numbers thought he was the best overall SS in the AL last year.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 6:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Conclusion: Don't trust a soap.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 6:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dropped soap should be ignored?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 6:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

As someone who has been in prison many, many times: Yes.

By the way, I was always innocent, consistently framed and then convicted by a corrupt jury. Except for that one murder out on the docks when I was given a fair trial by a jury of my piers.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 6:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't they want you to walk the plank?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 6:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The parrot talked them out of it

Har!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 7:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of prison's and fishing....

I just found out a couple of nights ago that a human being can have entrails dangling 8 inches from their cheek. Who knew? It looked just like fish guts.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 15, 2008 7:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"Cheek" can mean so many things

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 7:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I suppose it would be

exponentially worse to have entrails dangling from those cheeks….especially in jail.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 15, 2008 7:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Entrails?

How did someone’s intestine… know what? Nevermind.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 7:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to worry grover....

they sewed him up nicely. Course there was nerve damage so now the left side of his face droops. Gang politics are a real bitch.

Remember kiddies, when you join a prison gang, you’ve just introduced yourself to the people who are eventually going to try and kill you.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 15, 2008 7:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Moral of the story?

Don’t get caught in the first place.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 7:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not an option.

One must put in the prerequisite time qualifications to be considered for status/advancement. Apparently it’s important.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 15, 2008 7:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not just prison gangs.

The same can be said for street gangs.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 7:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I have to say, I really don't understand the concept of prison gangs

I mean, what’s the point? You’re in f***ing prison.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 11:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Might I suggest

NOT trying to figure this one out.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 11:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

More like "selective raping"

Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.

by Joey C. on Nov 17, 2008 7:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I prefer pillaging

It’s slightly more politically correct and the incidence of STDs is lower.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 17, 2008 7:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's what she said

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 17, 2008 8:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

It sounded more like “Baaaaaaaaa!!!!!”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 17, 2008 9:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Pay more attention, Nico

I said “That’s what she said.”

She said, not sheep said.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 17, 2008 9:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lot's of "reasons"....

Originally it was a means to avoid predation back in the late fifties and early sixties. Nowadays, prison gangs control the activities of a lot of street gangs. It’s a lucrative source of income for high ranking gang members doing long stretches of time, although it’s a little more complicated than just that.

Think of it along the lines of a corporate structure, only on a much earthier, tribal scale.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 16, 2008 8:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But he was consistently bad when he was with Oakland

I don’t know how Dial figures it out, but I wonder if splitting a lot of home games with David Eckstein made Scutaro look much better than he actually.

Or it could just be that he played only 56 games at short the whole year.

by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2008 11:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you for doing this Paul

Although, based on this article I’d suggest editing Furcal’s section to 4 years/$44-48 million. $55 million seems high at this time.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 2:35 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Still think it's a little high

But ’tis better to budget high and end up not spending it all then to do the opposite.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 2:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why buy injury insurance from the player?

Why not just buy it from an insurance company?

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Nov 16, 2008 10:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

because

the players have more money than the insurance companies of america these days?

BB should send scouts to watch cricket players.

by alea iacta est on Nov 16, 2008 10:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not insurance per se

PT is referring to contract language that would protect the A’s should Furcal’s back fall apart. If he went down with the same back injury he had before such language would enable the A’s to opt out of the contract.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2008 10:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I understand that.

But if you can pay $Xm to Furcal for such an opt-out clause, or you can pay $Xm to an insurer for a contract completion policy whereby if Furcal gets hurt and the A’s end up eating the contract the insurance company pays out the cost, the end result to the A’s is pretty much the same.

Given that it’s pretty standard to take out such a policy any time you sign an injury-risk player to a big contract, and given that it’s not so common for an athlete to agree to an Ordoñez style injury opt-out clause, why are we assuming that Furcal is likely to go the Ordoñez route? Has he or his agent suggested anything to that effect?

It just seems weird to me. You’re essentially asking Furcal to underwrite his own injury insurance. Why would he want to do that? And if he did sign such a clause, wouldn’t you as his agent advise him to take that extra money and go out and buy his own individual policy anyway?

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Nov 16, 2008 11:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right, to an extent.

A player is definitely unlikely to ink an Ordonez type injury opt-out clause.

I mean, with one of those, Dusty Baker could screw a pitcher out of millions.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 16, 2008 11:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Works either way...

but there may be fewer conflict-of-interest/moral hazard situations arising if the deal doesn’t involve a third party.

Also might be cheaper.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 11:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You realize that involving a third party

is standard procedure, right?

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Nov 16, 2008 11:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

YOU try telling that to my girlfriend

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 17, 2008 2:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not for baseball contracts, it isn't

(see the Ordonez deal).

There’s also the cautionary tale of the Jeff Bagwell debacle, which forced the Astros to undergo a PR nightmare in order to collect their insurance money.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2008 10:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Logic Breakdown alert

“It isn’t standard procedure, they didn’t do it this one time.”

I guarantee that iglew can come up with many instances of contract insurance from third parties for each time you can find a player signing an Ordonez deal. (I can’t think of another deal like Ordonez’s off the top of my head at all)

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 17, 2008 10:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure that guarantee is good.

I would be at a disadvantage in such a naming game because any such clause in a player’s contract would be public information whereas an insurance policy bought by the team is private unless somebody blabs or it happens to come out in the news somehow.

I can think of only two such contracts that were publicized: Jeff Bagwell’s (with its notorious expiration date) and Albert Belle’s. If PT were to come up with two more Ordoñez-like contracts, I’m not sure I could dig up another to match it.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Nov 17, 2008 10:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ordoñez and how many others?

Maybe half a dozen?

On the other hand, you have insurance companies that create such packages and agents who specialize in selling them. Why would such a product exist if no one is buying it?

If you’re saying that it’s common practice in other professional sports but not in baseball, then you need an explanation for why the owner’s motivation would be different for baseball. I think the more likely explanation is that baseball is more secretive than other sport and we’re less likely to hear about them, just like how in baseball we have less access to various other financial information.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Nov 17, 2008 10:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You know, you're probably right

I suspect there are more third-party insurance contracts than teams let on.

With that said, at the very least we can say that there are a variety of ways in which the team and Furcal could structure an insurance policy. I like this one: Team gives Furcal a generous deal but is allowed to void the contract if he hurts his back again, then Furcal takes out an insurance policy on HIMSELF to guarantee himself a large portion of the payday if he does get hurt. (I know that players can do this, because college basketball has a rule specifically allowing amateur players to do it.)

That way the decision on whether the insurer or the insured collects is made by what amounts to a third-party to that relationship.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2008 11:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of player insurance

Am I mis-remembering that there was talk of an insurance policy on Chavez when he signed his big deal? Does that mean the A’s have been collecting on that insurance all this time he’s been injured, thus is that money essentially “freed up” for other player expenses?

How does injury insurance work—is it pro-rated per day missed due to injury, or how would it be calculated?

"Don't be an ass!" --Bill King

by batgirl on Nov 17, 2008 12:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re Chavez

We’ve speculated about it here on AN. My own opinion is that the team must have some sort of policy, though I would guess it has not been triggered yet since Chavvy’s injuries have not been career-ending (yet).

No one releases terms, so we don’t know the specifics. The basic idea is that a team gets a contract completion policy. If for some reason the player becomes unable to perform but the team is still on the hook for the rest of his contract, the insurance company would pay out the remainder of the contract. What all qualifies would be specified in the policy language (and, possibly, litigated).

There was a big fuss about this over Jeff Bagwell a few years back, because his policy was not renewed, so if he "became unable to perform" before the policy ran out, the team would get a big payout, but if the triggering event happened after the policy ran out, they got nothing. After the previous season everyone knew Bagwell was hurt but no one knew how bad. The policy ran out some time around March, so the team wanted Bagwell to show up for spring training so they could see if he could still play, and if he couldn’t they could declare his injury career-ending and collect on the policy. Bagwell didn’t want to show up just to be cut and told the team, "if you want to cut me, just do it," so he refused to show up. But the team couldn’t just cut him because then they’d have no insurance claim, so the whole thing was turning into a public relations nightmare. In the end, Bagwell did not come but the team filed the claim anyway, the insurance company denied it, the team sued, and it was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount.

For a player, it’s just like regular disability insurance. You negotiate a policy based on anticipated future earnings. The player’s contract with the team typically includes being paid for the term of the contract regardless, so if a player buys his own policy it’s for anticipated earning beyond the end of the contract. (For example, if a guy is in his last year, but is still playing well and expects to make big bucks as a free agent, he would insure against income for years after he becomes a free agent.) Presumably if he has an Ordoñez-type clause, he could insure against the possibility of that clause coming into effect.

If you google professional athlete insurance, you’ll find several agencies advertising this stuff, with brief descriptions of the policies available.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Nov 17, 2008 1:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

interesting--thanks for the info

It seems like something that would be really hard to collect on, especially if it must be career ending. For most players (at least A’s players!) the injuries are more nagging/operable problems that take you off the field for a certain amount of time, but the thought is eventually you’d be back, so there’s no way to get compensation for the lost time.

"Don't be an ass!" --Bill King

by batgirl on Nov 17, 2008 3:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the nature of high-risk insurance

Of course it’s hard to collect on. If it weren’t, there’d be no advantage in buying a policy.

You buy a policy against a small chance of a large hit. Like if you sign so-and-so for $50 million, and then tomorrow he gets hit by a bus and is paralyzed for life. That’s too big a risk to assume on your own.

Everyday stuff like you sign a guy for $2 million and he spends the year on and off the DL, you just absorb that yourself and take it into account when negotiating the contract. You don’t turn to an insurance company unless the risk is too large to assume yourself. If you insure against risks that are small and probable, you’re just going to lose money.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Nov 17, 2008 3:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He's not really a shortstop

If anyone actually gives him a job again, I would expect him to bounce back— he had one of those BABIP implosions, a la Swisher— but he really should be playing second base. I’d still take him over Eckstein any day of the week.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 2:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Question on the defensive numbers

In the team projection series, the +/- defensive numbers were above average. In this one you’ve changed the offensive numbers to above replacement, but the defensive numbers are still above average, correct?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 2:45 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Yes

Generally speaking, average defense is considered to be replacement level, although it wouldn’t make any difference if you called hitting and fielding replacement levels for shortstop -25 and -5 instead of -30 and 0.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 2:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Alright, just wanted everything to be clear

Guess the least I could do is give you a Rec for doing this…

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 2:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why not go for broke?

They aren’t SS but we’ve been talking about them a bunch…

Mark Teixeira
Adam Dunn
Pat Burrell
Jason Giambi (1st base version)
Juan Rivera
Bobby Abreu (Why not?)
Randy Johnson
Derek Lowe
Brad Penny

Shnits & Giggles Division:

CC Sabathia
Ben Sheets
AJ Burnett

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 2:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough

I’ve been meaning to sign up to Bill James site, he’s got projected OPS for 2009… maybe I’ll take a stab at some projections along this line for immediate gratification.

Can’t tell you how glad I am to be done with school. And the only good thing about my wife going back to school was my getting to brag about sleeping with a coed.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 3:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"...getting to brag about sleeping with a coed"

I don’t like you.

Goddamn back surgeries taking out all the fun of school…

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 4:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lucky for me I've got a cute coed at my side

I don’t care if you like me!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The word isn't "coed"

It’s “tranny”.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Funny

The phrase “Nico’s head on a pike” suddenly springs to mind.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

grover, just the fact that you look at your wife and see a coed is great.

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"

by Eastbayjim on Nov 15, 2008 5:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It would be better if those two things happened at the same time

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

True, if he sees a cute coed and then his wife walks in... OUCH

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"

by Eastbayjim on Nov 15, 2008 5:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll say

My wife and a coed at the same time? Yeah, works for me.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder if your wife reads AN....

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 5:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

His future ex-wife does

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It would serve your best interests

if for the rest of the night you referred to her as my beautiful and charming future ex-wife

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No

But Nico has an amazing sense of self preservation and he quickly picked up on the idea that saying insulting things about my wife was way the fuck over the line.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 11:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually... she might

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ouch?

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But just how ouch?

Brett Myers ouch or Lorena Bobbitt ouch?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 6:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Just ouch.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Like...

How many different uses can a person find for duct tape, fish hooks, lemon juice and a ball peen hammer?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 6:09 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Holy shit.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Plenty

Are we talking legal or are you including illegal as well?

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2008 7:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There are legal uses for that list?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 8:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

barely

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2008 9:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Go evil or go home

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 10:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Can't...there are lemon-scented fish bits duct-taped to my house...I'm scared...

"A’s baseball….It’s almost better than a stick in the eye." ~ alox

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Nov 15, 2008 11:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fish bits?

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 16, 2008 9:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hardcore.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 16, 2008 9:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I want my own cute coed.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 5:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I have been wondering about Ryan Church

Because of his concussion the Mets might undervalue him…and he’d be a good addition for Our A’s. What do you think Grover and AN folks?

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 5:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We can never have too many OFers with concussions!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Before that concussion...

he had blossomed into a fine hitter and a really good fielder. And Hey aren’t you supposed to be getting ready to get dunked or something?

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 5:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Travis Buck should at least match Church's production

Buck’s already on the roster and costs less.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Buck...

Is not as good as the AN faithful think IMO. and He’s always injured.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 5:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nico?

Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@

by monkeyball on Nov 15, 2008 5:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wkalli dkidps froomz?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not yet...

But I do know what he looks like and where he’ll be tomorrow from 10 AM to 12 PM

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That whole Fanpost was a decoy

I’ll be at the Midget Tranny Convention trying to pick up giruys.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's very interesting Nico

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good thing there are Tranny Goats... cause we would never see you again Nico

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"

by Eastbayjim on Nov 15, 2008 5:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Guys recover...

and Church was very promising.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 5:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He's certainly worth a look on Sunday

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bucks about 5 years younger then Church!

Shouldn’t everything you just said about recovering from injury apply to Buck as well?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I would think so ...

but Buck had so many little traumas…I lost count.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 5:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Buck deserves another chance

But if it makes you feel better, you can dream about the A’s signing FA Juan Rivera. He’s not quite a Church but he is a former Angel.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:50 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Gak. I would actually opt to play Cust in the OF

if the A’s had Rivera.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he deserves another chance too.

He can prove himself on the Rivercats.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 5:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Vicious

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 6:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

His 2007 season begs to differ (with the first point)

I’ll grant you the second.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 5:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's face it, though -

Buck’s 2008 season confused everyone who is smart enough to be utterly baffled by the bizarre. Or maybe I was drunk and he hit .276/.353/.441.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well he did have a 95 OPS+

So it’s not like he’s the second coming of Emil Brown or anything

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 10:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And already has the requisite concussion on his resume

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hurling him straight into action next year?

Hm. Not optimistic. He’s never played above AA.

 I’d call him 25 RAR on offense, -5 on defense.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 3:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm all for letting Pennington and Petit play SS this year and spend the money on a bat like Dunn at 1B for a couple years.

Let’s let the young guys in our system work their way up and not spend a ton of money on a average player or a health risk (Furcal). We have used the DL way to much to invest more into that.

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"

by Eastbayjim on Nov 15, 2008 3:26 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Crosby >>>> Pennington, probably > Petit as well

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 3:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Someone likes you PT

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 3:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

No kidding

I’m in virgin territory here!

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 3:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Welcome to the Front Page

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 3:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"here"?

Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@

by monkeyball on Nov 15, 2008 5:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bravo.

Minimal yet sufficient to take digs at PT individually and AN as a group.

Possibly your finest non-baseball moment.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't he mean "hear"?

Here hear!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that comment is funny two

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 5:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Its funny irregardless

of weather I could care less. Oops, I mean fewer.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

you mean "regardless"

drop your “eyer” (ir).

Officially awaiting the 2009 season.

by One won lost won on Nov 15, 2008 9:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I donut think you understand whether Nico are serious our not

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 10:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nico doesn't no either

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 10:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure he does

Eye’ve herd him talk about the Bradley trade several times.

"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty

by 5Aces on Nov 17, 2008 10:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Congratulations

You’ve just hit an all-time low.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 5:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

no, I haven't hit grover yet

Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@

by monkeyball on Nov 15, 2008 5:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And Sal's below... well, everyone else

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Except the midget trannies

That’s a tie.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, this is a tie:

And an all-time low.

Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@

by monkeyball on Nov 16, 2008 3:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

to fill in

Zobrist hit .318/.428/.459 in the minors. 250 walks vs 194 strikeouts. Little home run power, but good gap power. Was always old for the level. Wasn’t drafted until he was 23 and was coming out of the NAIA. Houston was plenty conservative with him (wisely.) Traded to the Rays in the Aubrey Huff deal. Rays essentially skipped him past AAA last year (80 PAs in 06) and installed him as the starting shortstop. He bombed bad (.224/.260/.311 in 183 ab.) After being sent down last year (age 26 season btw), he hit .279/.403/.455 in about 250 plate appearances. This year, playing in a utility role for the Rays he hit .253/.339/.505 in about 225 PAs. 12 home runs, he showed power that was long expected. He’s a big kid 6’3 and about 215 these days, and it was thought that power would come one day. Defensively, he’s not a wizard. He holds his own. League average or slightly below. In an ideal situation, he’d be moving over to 3rd in a couple years. Also has some history of back trouble.

He’d be a lot cheaper than Hardy (though with the Rays, he may not come that cheap), and a lot better than most of the other players on the list. This guy is a legit big league hitter, most likely above league average. Also so early in the process, he could man SS or 3B for a while.

by AgitationStation on Nov 15, 2008 4:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hafta disagree with part of this

Zobrist was never expected to hit for power. BA (and the scouting community) rated his HR pop as below-average and Sickels said his swing was good for doubles, not home runs.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 4:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sickels probably never saw him play

Houston player development department definitely thought power was coming. BA, fair enough. Whether they expected it or not, it’s there now.

by AgitationStation on Nov 15, 2008 4:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

His defense at SS is not good.

He’s better in a corner IF spot.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 4:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll say

He’s projected at -14 runs at shortstop.

Not an option.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 5:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

...

Admittedly, that doesn’t look good, but he only played 35 games at SS. Too small a sample to get an accurate statistical rating (either direction).

By the end of the season Maddon was quoted as being pleased by Zobrist’s defense and his rate of improvement. Defense comes quicker than hitting, but even the best infielders do have adjustments to make and need some development at the big league level. Put the guy on Oakland’s slow turf, and with the A’s coaching, and he could well end up perfectly average. His glove was not looked at as a minus in any way on his trip through the minors. Hard to believe he’s collapsed on that side of the ball. Maybe not though. Crosby’s defensive demise was certainly sudden.

Let’s not forget though that he hit well enough last year that his weak glove didn’t compromise his overall value. It’s pick your poison with all of these guys. I’d prefer a guy with real upside. And a player who can be moved over to 3b if SS doesn’t work (and at worst can supersub). It’s not like the A’s don’t have need there too.

by AgitationStation on Nov 15, 2008 7:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He was a clusterf*** at the position in 2007, too

This is not new information. Moving him OFF of shortstop, along with Brendan Harris and the other incompetents they had out there that year, is one of the major reasons why Tampa’s defense improved so dramatically in 2008.

Look, everything I’ve ever read about Zobrist’s defense, be it scouting-based, stats-based, fan-based, whatever, suggests that voluntarily playing him at shortstop is the equivalent of voluntarily hitting yourself in the head with a hammer.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 7:39 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Claw

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 11:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's lemon juice & fish hook him!

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Nov 16, 2008 10:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, it is tough to find a good SS

Looking at these players I would be okay with acquiring Furcal because it’s not my money, but if the A’s can’t snag him I would probably just stick with Crosby, Pennington, and Petit.

by DiegoAsFan on Nov 15, 2008 3:44 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Is Cardenas being considered, or is he mainly working on 2B and 3B?

Either way, a projection on him after his full year would be interesting, I you got the time…

Thanks Paul

witty remark

by dtownmbrown on Nov 15, 2008 3:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Projection on him is "suck"

He’s not ready, sorry.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 3:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cardenas is back playing 2B in the AFL

I continue to hope for a move to 3B.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 3:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he ultimately ends up back at second, with Weeks in CF for the 20?? A's

He just hasn’t shown the power he’s supposed to, not my ideal 3B.

by NateHST on Nov 15, 2008 4:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If Adrian's at 3B and Weeks at 2B, and generic in CF, how is that worse than Adrian at 2B,

Weeks in CF and generic at 3B? Aren’t 3B and CF basically similar on the defensive spectrum? Isn’t the more important thing who plays their position the best? By the time we have to worry about this maybe Dixon will take charge of CF. I don’t see anyone similar taking charge of 3B.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 6:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well my master plan would be to flip Holliday

for a guy like Brett Wallace or Daniel Murphy or a player like that to a team like the Mets when the media is on their asses because they’re three games out…

by NateHST on Nov 15, 2008 7:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wallace will never play third.

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Nov 15, 2008 9:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Even Adam Melhuse has played third

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 10:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Even I have played third

That’s the joy of beer-league softball

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 10:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Me too. I did it not having fielded a ground ball in 15 years.

Not pretty.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 10:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He seems to be doing it in AA...

From watching him in the CWS, while he’s undoubtedly chunky, he’s not immobile. He made a couple of nifty plays, including one in particular where he caught a ball which curled over the bag into foul territory and threw across his body in time to get the runner.

I doubt he’s a plus defender, but he wasn’t Ryan Braun-esque either.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 11:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes. Read a couple of scouting reports

that said he has quick feet. He’s like an offensive lineman. Real big… but can move.

by NateHST on Nov 15, 2008 11:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sickels watched him in the AFL

He was surprised by how well Wallace managed around the bag. He could be an average defender at 3rd base as long as he loses ZERO athleticism. Sickels made it a point to emphasize that should Wallace lose even a quarter step he’d have to move off the hot corner.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 11:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Guys who are that big at age 22...

…I just find it doubtful that he won’t lose a step before long. But if he can do it, hey, more power to him.

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Nov 16, 2008 8:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I would be, basically, astounded if Rashun Dixon plays a game in the major leagues before September 2012

i.e. almost 4 full seasons from now. He’s an unpolished 17-year old. I don’t really see a good argument for even putting him in Low A next season.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 7:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Will you wear panties and a bra if he does?

I’m using a Billy Beane technique here – if I stock up on low-odds promises, there’s a chance one of them will stick. Maybe Sweeney OPSes .850 one year, maybe Dixon gets a cup of coffee in July, 2012.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 7:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure what's more disturbing here --

PT wearing a bra and panties, or Nico asking him to do so.

by mikev on Nov 16, 2008 12:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Isn't that the time Cardenas and Weeks are going to be good too?

if at all

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 10:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I doubt that... I'm expecting them to be starting for the A's in 2011

Maybe 2012. Whereas unless Dixon suddenly turns into the next Andruw Jones, it’s hard to see him in the lineup before 2013 at the earliest.

The reason why Dixon is so exciting to me is that he did what he did this year basically without knowing how to play baseball at all— totally on raw talent. That said… he doesn’t know how to play baseball at all. It’s going to take a good while to turn him into a quality player.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 11:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

CF and 3B are not remotely similar on the defensive spectrum

Not in terms of positional value, skills required to play each, etc.

by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2008 11:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The second point is obvious, can you elaborate on the first?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 11:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Positional value?

I think the old “defense up the middle” adage is true. More balls are hit to 2B, SS, CF than other positions, so a team should have its best defenders there.

Tango, for some reason I don’t quite understand, gives the same positional adjustment for 2B, 3B, and CF.

I’m probably wrong on this. I admit I said positional value just assuming that everybody weighted CF/2B more than 3B. I’m shocked to see that’s not so.

by thejd44 on Nov 16, 2008 3:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A very bad sign!!!!!!

  The Giants are going heavy after Furcal. Do you recall the last guy we had to out bid the giants for? Loaiza. That is bad sign #1. Bad sign #2 Sabean is a idiot when it comes to free agents so he will most likely over pay for Furcal. Rowand overpaid. Zito overpaid. Benetiz overpaid. and the list goes on.

by Arcman on Nov 15, 2008 4:11 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

If the Giants are going after him, he's a bad signing.

and needs to be stayed away from.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 4:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bonds wasn't a bad signing

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 6:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bonds is the exception to most rules.

Don’t sign old sluggers who are poor defenders. Exception: Barry Bonds.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It would be Heavenly if ...

Billy Beane shattered the collusion, broke through the Bonds Blacklist, and gave him the DH role. Cust is an adequate fielder, and with Holliday in the lineup, we’ll have a powerfully scary offense. Even an old Bonds is better than 99% of the sluggers out there. And I believe given one more season, he’d rise to the occasion.

Holy Toledo!!!

by Johnny U on Nov 15, 2008 7:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

How do you know that Bonds is 99 % better?

He hasn’t played for an entire season! And he’s really getting so old! I think it was stinky too that Selig and MLB blacklisted the guy but I am not so sure he’d play well now. Of course the price would be right.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 7:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He'd probably come for cheap enough

that he’d be a positive.

And he’s got something to prove/an axe to grind.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 7:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I would love Bonds on the team..

if he could equal his 2007 numbers. He’d be a big plus. I am doubting that after a year off he could do that. But who knows? and I’d love it as a big FU to selig and fans all over baseball who really believe that their own players were steroid free and that steroid use wasn’t the norm in baseball.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 7:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I really think Bonds can put up a monster offensive season

Maybe not mimic his 2007, but I could see a 20-25HR, .400 OBP out of him. And, Cust and Holliday would see better pitches because pitchers are VERY scared of Bonds.

For the cost, he’s worth it.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 8:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And more belated reasons for Bonds

1. He is THE BIGGEST draw, besides winning. This guy is a Bay Area hero.

2. He sends a message out there to FAs the A’s might be interested in after the 2009 season that this is a team that is committed to winning and will do whatever it takes to win.

3. Signing him immediately catapults the A’s from one of the worst offenses in the league to one of the best.

4. Even if Bonds is washed up, pitchers are still scared as hell of him. In any late inning, clutch situation, he will probably be getting walked. You don’t fuck with the best pure, sheer hitter of our generation. Period. And, Bonds has an axe to grind with EVERYONE: the media, MLB, the other teams that didn’t sign him, etc.

5. Bonds has ZERO effect on the A’s 2010 and beyond. If the A’s add to the cake by signing a FA pitcher, I could see them being one of the best teams in the league and a near-lock to win the AL West. They have a great defensive outfield, and great defense out of their middle IF and 3rd base. Cust will probably be Ryan Howard at 1B. Which is bad, but will be mitigated by having THE BEST DH in all MLB. And Cust will provide adequate offense for a 1B.

The A’s will either have an above average offensive player or a good defender at EVERY position, with the exception of SS and maybe CF.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 8:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's a lot of faith to put in Bonds

At his age, with deteriorating knees, and an entire year away from the game I’d be a lot more concerned about Bonds abilities. I certainly would say he would be the best DH in baseball, it would be pretty amazing if he could be even be an average DH numbers wise.

by DiegoAsFan on Nov 15, 2008 9:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Even if he doesn't slug much

He will put up a .400 OBP from all the walks he will be getting because he’s well…Bonds.

And, the A’s can just release him if he sucks/is a distraction/etc.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 10:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You have stars in your eyes.

If Barry whiffs a bunch at the plate…he won’t get the walks like he used to.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 10:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good reasons all...

IF BONDS IS STILL A GOOD HITTER. That’s what I am worried about.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 10:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If he sucks the A's can release him.

He’s not going to be expensive. The A’s can eat the losses.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 10:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm only for signing him if he comes cheap.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 10:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Understood.

And I do think he’s worth a look …since we can sign him for the min.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 10:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But remember that he will block other guys...

So he needs to be good …pretty much like immediately.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 10:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

fuck...oops

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 16, 2008 1:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Do you really want to?

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 16, 2008 7:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to worry,

Federal prisons are definately a two tier system.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 16, 2008 8:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm just trying to keep track of where we are

This thread has produced a tangent or three

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2008 8:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Somewhere between hot coeds and federal prisons.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 16, 2008 9:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And grover's wife.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 16, 2008 9:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Uhh, yes plz

Stick Cust at 1B, Holliday at LF, and Bonds at DH.

THROBBING POWER.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 7:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Mark Ellis might collapse by mid May

if he has to cover the entire right side of the infield.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 7:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The offensive upgrade by having Bonds at DH

would outshadow the defensive downgrade of having Cust at 1B, which isn’t really that much of a premier defensive position anyways.

I don’t think Cust would be that much worse than Ryan Howard at 1B, keeping in mind that LF is a harder position to play than 1B.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 8:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd sooner put Cust in LF, Holliday in RF,

and Barton at 1B. Might as well get the good defense at 1B when your lineup is suddenly set.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 9:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

Cunningham can cripple fight Sweeney for CF and Buck, well, can wrap himself in bubble wrap for a year.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 10:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Be careful about saying the phrase "throbbing power"

You won’t believe what happened to Nico’s goat the last time someone said that.

by danmerqury on Nov 16, 2008 10:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bonds could never "suck."

A bad Bonds is probably just as good as most major league .265 hitters. Plus, and this is only rumored (his private life is so highly protected), he takes BP almost every single day and is keeping in “spring” shape. His “eye” and bat speed alone would drive the ball. They go into that Bonds shift and takes a pitch or two and suddenly a man on first is standing on second. He has such an axe to grind and he wants to do it in the Bay Area. Money is not his motive, long tape measure home runs are. RBIs. Lots of them. And a World Series ring. All I’m saying is that Billy Beane could do something great not only for the A’s but also for baseball. Giving one of it’s all-time greatest hitters a chance. And by doing so, he’ll fill every seat … and give us the punch to beat the Angels.

Holy Toledo!!!

by Johnny U on Nov 16, 2008 3:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dublin Correctional Facility.

It’s a nearby Federal prison. Perhaps he could be placed on a work release program? Away games would be problematic.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 16, 2008 5:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Uhhh... well, you see

I was kind of referring to the “Bonds could never suck” portion of the post

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2008 5:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I laughed very hard there grover. Well played sir.

"It wasn't the snooze. Everybody thinks it was the snooze. It was the volume." - the one and only WaddellCanseco

by notsellingjeans on Nov 16, 2008 8:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rowand wasn't an overpay

Despite his poor 2008 second half, he’s been, at worst, equal to Torii Hunter (and better than Eric Byrnes) over the past few years. He got way less than Hunter and a bit more than Byrnes on the open market.

The only way it’s possibly an overpay is in the number of years.

by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2008 11:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hunter was a ridiculous overpay

The fact that Rowand was paid somewhat less doesn’t make his contract good… just less bad.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 11:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So then Byrnes was an overpay, too, right?

Because he’s nowhere near the level of those guys, and while his deal is 2 years shorter, he’s getting $10 mil per year and Rowand is getting $12.

by thejd44 on Nov 16, 2008 3:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

yes

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Nov 16, 2008 10:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So if EVERY center fielder is "overpaid"

Doesn’t that mean none of them are? I mean, if they’re all signing for “over-market” prices, perhaps we’ve all underestimated the actual market.

by thejd44 on Nov 17, 2008 12:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure

But that value is irrelevant if it doesn’t reflect reality. It isn’t like there’s any statistical rationality behind the $5M number.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 17, 2008 10:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not something pulled from thin air.

I think it’s approximately the average salary per season, per win added, when taking all players into account.

The 2009 A's draft pick... getting higher every game.

by rebus on Nov 17, 2008 11:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But wasn't it established several years ago?

If it’s updated annually, then I’m wrong.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 17, 2008 12:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's adjusted seasonally.

I think the precise figure many were using last year was 4.85M, and the market seemed to trend upward by some small percentage each year… Anyway, 5M, while probably not spot on to the nickel, is very close.

The 2009 A's draft pick... getting higher every game.

by rebus on Nov 17, 2008 1:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes it is

Dave Cameron at FanGraphs has estimated it at 5.5M per win entering this offseason, assuming typical 10% inflation from last year’s market.

He’s an extremely reliable source.

"I'll make a list for the record. These people should be trusted: Sal, andeux, rfloh, danny...and no one else. Certainly not me. And even extra super-certainly not NSJ."

by notsellingjeans on Nov 17, 2008 4:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Carlos Beltran isn't overpaid.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2008 10:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, that's a non sequitur

Sizemore is still an arbitration-years player; his salary is artificially depressed.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2008 11:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Codswallop!

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Nov 17, 2008 1:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hogwash!

"I'll make a list for the record. These people should be trusted: Sal, andeux, rfloh, danny...and no one else. Certainly not me. And even extra super-certainly not NSJ."

by notsellingjeans on Nov 17, 2008 4:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Trannies!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 17, 2008 6:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cindi!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 17, 2008 7:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No ...

they’re being paid from the same pool of money to produce the same basic product as other players, regardless of position …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Nov 17, 2008 11:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Did i miss something

or is there some reason to think that the a’s might be considering throwing this big a contract at furcal or anyone else?

"...in baseball you wear a cap." -- george carlin

by Hot Cup Joe on Nov 15, 2008 4:38 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

And that they gave up some future for Holliday

Which is kinda silly if the plan is to do nothing else.

by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2008 11:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not if he can acquire a better future in trade than the one they gave up

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 11:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That would be a remarkably stupid gamble to make

and if that’s “plan A” Beane deserves to be fired. It would mean he’s just playing egotistical games to see if he can one-up himself instead of building a competitive team either by rebuilding with prospects or rebuilding with established players.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Nov 16, 2008 10:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's only stupid if there were reasonable offers for Street and Carlos in terms of

prospects. If the offers were not valuable, it’s not much of a gamble. The main loss is the extra salary paid to Holliday.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 12:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So, In Conclusion....

In the seemingly likely event that another GM over-pays for Furcal, the only logical move, short of a Tejada for nothing good trade, seems to be to hope that someone steps up. I would truly hate Crosby if he played well and got a big contract out of it.

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Nov 15, 2008 5:07 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Punto

Wasnt cut back to 99 games, he was injured, when healthy he played everyday.

by pbra17 on Nov 15, 2008 5:09 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Lucky for the Twins

!

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Nov 15, 2008 5:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Had he missed another week...

Maybe they would have made the playoffs

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Nov 15, 2008 5:12 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Cabrera would be my back up SS if no Furcal

  He plays very good defense and is ok with the bat. Could be had for cheap but does bring some past history of attitude. 2 year deal could bring him in at around 7 to 8 million.

by Arcman on Nov 15, 2008 5:15 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

But only on a 1-2 year deal.

Again, hope that the FA market is reflected on by the economy.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 5:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

**as in the economy reflects on the FA market.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 5:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I think O. Cabrera is getting too little consideration

As a two-year stopgap he could provide a little more offensive than Crosby has and about the same defense, while doing the little things to help you instead of the little things to hurt you. In other words, Cabrera is no statistical wonder, but has several skills that can help a team. The A’s could do worse for the next two seasons while the pickins are so slim. I like the idea a lot more than I like the idea of Renteria.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I hate Crosby slightly less than the idea of Renteria

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 6:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cabrera will not be had for cheap

There are a lot of teams looking for a SS and when Furcal’s off the market the losers of that run will swoop after Cabrera.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

True, true.

He’s a “valued commodity”.

If the Giants don’t throw massive dollars at Furcal, I see them way-overpaying for Cabrera.

If something does happen and Cabrera is available on a Kyle Lohse-esque deal, the A’s should jump on it though.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 5:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I would think he'd cost significantly less than Furcal, though

Maybe 2/17 ish instead of 4/42 ish. Those commitments are pretty different.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OK, maybe 3/25 then?

Given the lack of injury history, I’d still say that’s a lot different from 4/42 with risk of injury.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think there's enough insanity in the market that he gets a 4 year deal

Plus, if his agent is smart he’ll wait to push Cabrera until after Furcal sets the market.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I really wouldn't give Cabrera a 3/25 deal.

Type of player who’s poised to decline, already 34 years of age, could fall hard.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 5:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OK then, back to my original thought:

Manny at SS and just really go for offense.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Show no mercy on those slegnA pitchers

Lackey might even start crying

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 5:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

  A 2 year deal. So far not much of a mention of him so could Beane be pulling a fast one by talking up Furcal and signing Cabrera cheap?

by Arcman on Nov 15, 2008 5:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That sounds very Beane-like.

Talk up Furcal, then let the Giants and Brian Sabean sign him for 4/60 and get all of 100 games out of him for the entire deal, then snatch up Cabrera.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 5:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cabrera sucks

And I think his defense is horribly overrated. UZR has never thought he was more than ok.

Offensively, I don’t know if he’d outperform Crosby.

by thejd44 on Nov 15, 2008 11:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we forget

When the SS position was somone who batted before the pitcher. Back when I started going to games, yes pre DH days. The SS was mostly a poor hitter, yes there were exceptions, but they were hired for their glove. Campy was an exception, but until Tejada there was a lack of offense. Are we going back to this trend? It would seem to me that the 40 HR shortstop may be a thing of the past. So do we focus on some range and good arm, or look at the bat. As much as I like offense, I think we need some leather over there.

Stomp,em, stomp the piss out of em.Then pound the budweiser after the game. Joe Schultz Seattle Piolts Mgr 1969

by billyball1981 on Nov 15, 2008 5:34 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

That's the reason to sign a Dunn or Giambi

If you get little power at 1B you need more at SS, but if you have more at 1B you need less at SS. More generally, you can go for strong defense up the middle (2B, SS, CF) if you get enough production at the corners of the infield and the outfield.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Or a #9 hitter who saves tons of runs

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:40 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

IMO, it still is.

A run saved is a run scored.

A guy who’s 0 runs offensively, and +14 runs defensively, is worth the same as a guy who’s +28 runs offensively, and -14 runs defensively.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 5:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You can SAVE them?

OK we should definitely start saving them – especially those days we score, like, 14 points to their 2!

-Cindi

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

She does!

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 5:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

At least we don't run up the score

and go for that third touchdown.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 10:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

actually a run saved is slightly more valuable

Given that once it’s over winning 1-0 is the same as winning 14-0. The fewer runs you allow the fewer you have to score. I think most studies have shown that the advantage has a fairly negligible effect over the course of the season though.

by jdr on Nov 15, 2008 6:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't it stand to reason that

the more runs you score the fewer you have to prevent, and that winning 14-13 is the same as winning 14-0? Not sure I get the distinction.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 6:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Neither do I.

The more runs you prevent, the fewer you have to score.

The more runs you score, the fewer you have to prevent.

Winning 1-0 is the same as winning 14-0 is the same as winning 14-13.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

With the slight exception that

after the 14-13 win your bullpen isn’t in as good shape. But it’s hecka exciting!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 6:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd have to disagree, guys

Run prevention has the very positive ripple effect of reducing the strain on a pitching staff.

More outs = less pitches thrown = less injuries, more confidence, slightly more strike-throwing, better trade value.

"It wasn't the snooze. Everybody thinks it was the snooze. It was the volume." - the one and only WaddellCanseco

by notsellingjeans on Nov 15, 2008 6:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Even the A's have acknowledged

that part of the reason they are bringing in more offense is that they feel scoring more runs has the very positive ripple effect of reducing the strain on a pitching staff.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 7:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I believe that should be "Scoring some runs"

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"

by Eastbayjim on Nov 15, 2008 8:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But they try so hard not to be offensive.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 10:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right.

And defense makes pitchers look good/better than they really are (see: Zito, Barry).

Run prevention does have a better impact than run scoring in that manner. You use your bullpen less (which is good), and your starters are more confident.

Sometimes stuff gets underthought. But then, as Nico stated, scoring more runs also reduces strain (the pressure on a young staff that you have to throw a shutout every time in order to give your team a chance to win).

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 7:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Probably.

actually a run saved is slightly more valuable

And because it is so much less valued in the market for players, the salary compensation for great defense comes on the relative cheap.

by LowcountryJoe on Nov 16, 2008 5:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

Just look at the contracts all bat-no glove guys get.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 16, 2008 7:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

yes

And I have very little doubt that Billy Beane is very aware of this.

by jdr on Nov 16, 2008 9:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cal Ripkin Jr redefined the shortstop role

Steady hitting became a necessary attribute.

Officially awaiting the 2009 season.

by One won lost won on Nov 15, 2008 9:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

hop aboard the izturis express!

i love me some defense.
pt- nice work. also im hammered.

Save Rajai Davis

by oakinboston on Nov 15, 2008 5:55 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Oh, are we supposed to disclose that?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm hammered, just no alcohol.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 5:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And I really shouldn't have disclosed that.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hope you get nailed tonight.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 6:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks? Not going out though (sadly).

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

order in!

"It wasn't the snooze. Everybody thinks it was the snooze. It was the volume." - the one and only WaddellCanseco

by notsellingjeans on Nov 15, 2008 7:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I like the idea of Renteria.

He seems worth the risk to me because the money isn’t going to be so high compared to signing Raffy Furcal. He used to be so good and maybe rest will have restored him to some of his former glory. Yeah I am an optimist like that.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 6:02 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I just worry that his range might be so bad now

that he will be a real liability at SS. If he can still field at league average he’s probably poised to have a season like…well, like Bobby Crosby, but with some hope of hitting better. I just wonder what he’ll be like at SS in 2009; he was gawdawful from what I saw in 2008.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 6:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He was so awful...

was there an injury? I can’t remember. If so there’s hope. It’s hard for me to forget the way he played when he was with the Braves. Last season ,,,just seems like his nightmare. Was he a roid user and then stopped or something?

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 6:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The thinking in atlanta

was that roid use was possible but less likely than a general decline in physical conditioning, aka he fatted up.

"...in baseball you wear a cap." -- george carlin

by Hot Cup Joe on Nov 15, 2008 6:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

CBA says you can't give performance based incentives

except those based on plate appearances or awards won.

I would think a dieting bonus is against the rules.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah!

If he sits down his plate more…he could make more money.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 6:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It honestly just took me way too long to get that.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're too busy thinking about coeds

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 6:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm maybe.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Roids could have factored into it, I don't know.

He’s always struggled in the AL though.

I’d be worried about his declining defense though; players his age aren’t really in their primes anymore, and this might be the end of Rent-a-Wreck being competent

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I just hope that you are wrong.

Not because I think the A’s will sign him. I just hate seeing a guy go out like that. He was such a fine player.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 6:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He and Cabrera need to brawl.

They hate each other.

And I like brawls.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I do too.

and I know that’s wrong but it’s still fun to watch.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 6:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

PS

You can probably tell by that …that I love football too.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 6:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Haha. Not too big a football fan.

although I do follow somewhat.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"He used to be so good"

Whenever that is your excuse for signing a player (see Giambi, Jason) an alarm should go off in your brain saying something like this:

“SABEAN ALERT! SABEAN ALERT! PUT THE CONTRACT DOWN AND SLOWLY STEP AWAY!”

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 10:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

I remember people saying that about Frank Thomas when we signed him the first time.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 10:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There's a big difference

between a one year “He used to be sooo good contract” and a 3-5++ year “he used to be so good” contract. Sabean’s guilty of the latter.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 10:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I hear Pete Rose is available...

…but I wouldn’t bet on it.

"A’s baseball….It’s almost better than a stick in the eye." ~ alox

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Nov 15, 2008 11:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

BTW Paul...

This was very good. I can see that you put a lot of work into it, too. Thanks for doing that.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 6:05 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Seconded

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 6:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fourthed!

Or is it “fourtht,” like “dreamt”?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 6:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fourthed will do

Screw grammar

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 7:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's just gross.

And gramper agrees.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 7:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's just disgusting.

who’s gramper, btw.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 7:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He's married to grammar.

Whereas as BillyBob is married to Josie, who is both his sister…and his ma!!!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 7:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Kudos for Paul

now, please make a concerted effort…to study!
Read all the ego boosters early AM, then the rest of the day…STUDY!!!!!!!!!!

Officially awaiting the 2009 season.

by One won lost won on Nov 15, 2008 9:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Chone's acknowledged that his defense ratings don't work well for those without a

lot of big league experience. Given that defense is usually best early in a player’s career, I’m wondering whether we’re underrating the defense of Hu and Lillibridge (and Petit) and overrating the defense of Izturis and Cabrera. Given that none of these guys can really hit, I like the idea of getting the best defender you can get at SS.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 6:38 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

But what if Hu puts up a .143/.200/.289?

Even at shortstop, there’s some baseline threshold for offensive competence. I’m afraid he’d have a good chance of being the worst offensive regular in baseball if he were the A’s starting SS next year.

"It wasn't the snooze. Everybody thinks it was the snooze. It was the volume." - the one and only WaddellCanseco

by notsellingjeans on Nov 15, 2008 7:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, but what if Renteria puts up a .129/.182/.200?

Then Hu would only be the second worst SS.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 7:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But Edgar Hu would then be .272/.382/.489 which is awesome!

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 9:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In my owner mode, that would also mean we won every single world series

And successfully traded for Brian McCann.

Oh, and also that Crosby is a superstar SS.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 16, 2008 12:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I recall winning the 2007 World Series with a Giants roster

headlined by Rocco Baldelli, Coco Crisp and Luis A. Gonzalez, along with (I think) the fictional versions of Travis Ishikawa and Nate Schierholtz.

It’s highly amusing in retrospect to see just how badly that group has faceplanted…

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 9:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not in my game

By the third season he was 100/100 vs. RHP (and like 24 years old)

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 16, 2008 11:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Weird

I think my favorite part of that game was how effing awesome Ross Gload was. He was my #5 hitter for a couple seasons. I owned with The Gload.

by thejd44 on Nov 17, 2008 12:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Again, you and I will probably be the only two guys who understand that joke.

I’m trying to remember my MVP 05 lineup.

All I remember was that my top 3 were Joey Gathright, Carl Crawford, and Willy Mo Pena.

by mikev on Nov 17, 2008 7:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm trying to remember 2005.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 17, 2008 8:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Carl Crawford is a stud too

Although not quite as good as Baldelli.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 17, 2008 10:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Those guys often ended up on my team.

Willy Mo could actually make contact in that game too. And Zito didn’t fall of a cliff, so my rotations were usually amazing, young, and cheap.

Santana/Zito/Harden/Prior plus a young guy like Edwin Jackson or ‘T. Mulder’

The 2009 A's draft pick... getting higher every game.

by rebus on Nov 17, 2008 11:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Izturis and Cabrera are free agents

They’re basically known quantities at this point.

The young players are not, and you’re right that the numbers for them have large error bars. However, a. it’s the best we’ve got, and b. I’m not comfortable assuming great numbers from callow rookies for a team which is supposed to be contending this season.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 7:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I've no objection to Izturis or Cabrera if they're cheap

But their presence doesn’t preclude getting both Hu and Lillibridge if they’re also cheap to acquire talent-wise, since they’ve got more upside than Pennington or Petit. Since you agree that the numbers for the young’uns have large error bars, what’s wrong with

a) Relying on scouting reports; and
b) Bringing in more than one option at the expense of Petit and/or Pennington?

I’m not advocating dumping Petit for nothing, but I wouldn’t mind doing that with Pennington.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 9:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Keep in mind that the projections ARE relying on scouting reports to some extent

Players are not regressed to league average, they’re regressed to a numerical abstraction of their scouting report.

The reason why I am unenthusiastic at best about bringing in those guys is a. I think they’re going to cost more than you think, and b. there’s really no excuse for wasting any more roster space on infielders.

I think Pennington will actually make a good utility player— good speed plus switch hitting should allow him to back up all over the diamond and be a good pinch runner— so I wouldn’t want to get rid of him. Willie Bloomquist Jr. for $400K is a fine deal.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 11:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd trade someone like Casilla for Lillibridge and someone like Carignan for Hu

Change the names but similar value. I would have traded Street but now that’s out the window. The other option is to trade Holliday for a young star SS, like Yunel in a 3 way or something. I’m not at all comfortable getting Furcal, and then congratulating ourselves on solving the problem. There has to be Plan B and Plan C, unlike what we’ve done with 3B.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 2:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The A's had a "plan B" this year: Hannahan

Hannahan’s actual hitting line, never mind his projected hitting line, from this season is better than what those guys are liable to spit out next year. And if the various zone ratings are to be believed, so is his defense.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 12:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I keep underestimating our Jack, but I'd still like to see Hinske or Branyan.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 5:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, PT is overestimating him

He was, after all, the worst hitting qualified 3B (by OPS). By a large margin.

40 Points worse than Chone Figgins

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 16, 2008 5:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't dispute that...

My point is that, as hitters go, Hu and Lillibridge are liable to be worse.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 7:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If we can't upgrade from "worst"

Then all the giddy Furcal talk is silly

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 16, 2008 8:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

Worst qualifier and worst hitter are far different things. For even the worst-hitting regular in the big leagues, to be given 502 plate appearances, you’re better than a whole lot of dreck and fringe around the league.

"It wasn't the snooze. Everybody thinks it was the snooze. It was the volume." - the one and only WaddellCanseco

by notsellingjeans on Nov 16, 2008 8:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Eh, they're not likely to be expensive

Unless Beltre is available on the cheap, I actually favor the plan of “throw a bunch of stuff at the wall at third” if Chavez isn’t healthy, because I think there are other holes (SS, 1B, 5th starter) which can be filled just as expeditiously and don’t have a big sunk cost sitting around which might solve them.

Bring Baisley, Hannahan, Jesus Guzman and Branyan into camp and you’ll probably come up with at least somewhat decent production.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 8:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

Seems to work for the Marlins almost every year. They leave a position “open” by necessity/frugality, and it attracts the best Freely Available Talent to sign minor-league deals or cheap major league deals with them.

Lo and behold, you suddenly have Jorge Cantu and Dallas McPherson in your system.

"It wasn't the snooze. Everybody thinks it was the snooze. It was the volume." - the one and only WaddellCanseco

by notsellingjeans on Nov 16, 2008 8:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I still like Felipe Lopez

But apparently I’m alone.

"A’s baseball….It’s almost better than a stick in the eye." ~ alox

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Nov 15, 2008 7:14 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

You're not alone

Just very, very wrong

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 7:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm tempted to want Carlos Guillen, but just like Lopez

the defense at SS just isn’t sound enough.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 7:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd pick a defensive SS

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 11:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The player with the most runs saved and created.

The 2009 A's draft pick... getting higher every game.

by rebus on Nov 16, 2008 8:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Correction

He had some power – 23 HR’s in 2005. Since that year, he’s had 11, 9, and 6. And subpar doesn’t do his defensive ineptitude justice.

"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey

by JJ on Nov 17, 2008 5:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lopez

Is one of those guys whose value in fantasy has increased people’s perception of his value in real life. He once hit 23 homers! He once stole 45 bases (or whatever)! Aaron Boone was the same way. In real life you don’t really want them on your team.

by jdr on Nov 17, 2008 9:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow - neither split is as pronounced career long,

but check out Renteria’s L/R and home/away splits for 2008:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5602/splits;ylt=Ahl06tF1tNuTJVc.2jf_TSFCLcF

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 7:19 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The link won't paste properly, I'm sure but you can find it

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 7:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So now... Paul...

Which (if any) of these guys is your first choice?

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 7:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Not that I like Jeter, not that I don't thnk he's overrated -

but when you look at lists like these you see why the Yanks are glad to have him.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 8:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Just watching Crosby for a few years...

was enough to make me see why they adore Jeter in NY.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 8:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Mark Ellis > Derek Jeter.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 8:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Apple > Orange

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 10:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I know. Unfounded comparison.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 10:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Kate Beckinsale > Homestar Runner?

"A’s baseball….It’s almost better than a stick in the eye." ~ alox

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Nov 15, 2008 11:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I have no idea what Kate Beckinsale has to do with produce

But I have absolutely no problem with you bringing her up in the thread

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 11:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I should've just linked pictures

Not like that would’ve derailed the conversation.

"A’s baseball….It’s almost better than a stick in the eye." ~ alox

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Nov 15, 2008 11:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Pics are fine and highly appreciated.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 16, 2008 6:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Furcal

When you trade for a short-term rental like Holliday, you don’t dick around with inferior options when you’re trying to fill holes on your roster. Had the A’s passed on the Holliday deal, I’d be singing a different tune.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 11:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And if the A's can't land Furcal?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2008 11:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Tejada should be available but isn't

The folks over at Crawfish think that McLane loves Miggy and is convinced the Astros have the pieces to contend for the Wild Card if not the NL Central. So for now scratch Miggy off the list.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2008 12:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree. Tejada may be available midseason if the Astros are 100 games out or

something, but as things stand their best bad option is to go for it in 2009.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 2:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think I'd rather have Crosby at $5.25 than Cabrera at $10.

And Cabrera will get at least $10 because his perceived value to a lot of teams is much higher than his actual value.

by thejd44 on Nov 16, 2008 3:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

After looking at PT’s list, I don’t see anyone who screams “Eat Crosby’s contract and sign/trade for them NOW!!” except Furcal, who is looking to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 16, 2008 11:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You still have the same problem after 2009 if you don't do something now.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 12:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

but then you aren't also paying Crosby.

I say let him play this year and deal with it in the off-season (unless Furcal can be had reasonably)

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 16, 2008 1:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Or you could just deal with it now and get it over with.

I’d be OK with a AA SS if someone would suggest one, and be fine with Crosby or Izturis or someone keeping his seat warm.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 5:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

At first glance,

I thought this post was going to be about Susan Slusser…

by whiteshoes40 on Nov 15, 2008 8:37 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

At first glance, I thought it was making fun of people with lisps

"Thtaturday: Thuthing the thort thtop thtrategieth!"

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 9:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Aww Nico

Did you try to read it out loud? That was a thilly thing to do.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 10:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not much to get excited about here

Brent Lillibridge might be worth a flier. If the Braves have given up on him and he can be obtained cheaply, I’d give him a few months in Sacramento to see if last year was a fluke.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Nov 15, 2008 8:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Looks like very unpalatable options overall

thanks again Paul for the opinions. Good job on the analysis.

All signs point to rehabilitating Crosby, though it would take some novel methodology we all have not seen before.

Last winter, he worked out in his own batting cage, and seemed to really look competent first 30 games or so.
How to sustain it??
Thirty games, 15-day DL, go home to the batting cage, repeat….Put Petit in there in between, then send him back to Sacto.

Officially awaiting the 2009 season.

by One won lost won on Nov 15, 2008 9:17 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I know!

Crosby should try switch hitting! It’s a “reverse Kielty” manuever….might work!

Officially awaiting the 2009 season.

by One won lost won on Nov 15, 2008 9:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The problem with rehabilitating Crosby is that you're back to square one in 2010

Let’s get some sort of multi-year plan till Christian, Coleman or Leyja comes up

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 10:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The first 30 games were pure luck

coupled with a passel of wishful thinking and see-no-evil-hear-no-evil-speak-no-evil nonsense from A’s fans and the various organs of the state (Kuiper/Fosse, etc).

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 11:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Crosby's March/April last year (29 games) wasn't good.

That month was his 3rd highest OPS month of the season (.692).

by thejd44 on Nov 16, 2008 3:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

how about

Brandon Wood? What would the projections say about him?

I know he’s playing third now, and we don’t usually trade with the Angels – but he used to be a SS, needs a change in scenery, and is probably better than crosby.

by dbeach13 on Nov 15, 2008 9:25 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

ZiPS hates him -- maybe more than Crosby

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 10:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I will say this for Wood

He’s probably got more upside than any other player mentioned in this thread. Players who have 100 XBH in a season (which Wood did in the amazingly hitting-friendly CAL league) don’t come along often. And when they do, they tend to have names like Belle, Ruth, Gehrig, or Foxx (Helton’s done it twice too). 100 XBH from a SS don’t exist. ARod’s best was 91 (in his first full year in the majors).

Wood still is 23 going on 24, so it’s not like he’s super old. And he did hit 30+ HRs at AAA last year. But he seems destined to go the way of Dallas Macpherson. The Angels will never give him a starting job and he’ll continue to mash at AAA. The guy has such huge upside and such huge downside. Projection systems seem to hate him. Low averages, lots of strikeouts, it’s easy to see that he could struggle. That said, if it was within the A’s power to get him, I would be very happy to have him open at SS.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 16, 2008 4:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

One last note for tonight...

The longer I read this thread the more I hate the word sussing. Just had to share.

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 15, 2008 11:02 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Suss up about it.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 16, 2008 12:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

PT also claims 20% usage of the term "hogwash"

Nine out of 45. Impressive. :)

And once again 74mk, I hope you’ll continue to post more often. It’s always a treat.

"It wasn't the snooze. Everybody thinks it was the snooze. It was the volume." - the one and only WaddellCanseco

by notsellingjeans on Nov 16, 2008 3:24 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm amazed that you neglected PT's favorite verbal weapon:

“supernumerary”

The young wordsmith is responsible for a staggering 62.5% of its AN usage (10 out of 16).

"It wasn't the snooze. Everybody thinks it was the snooze. It was the volume." - the one and only WaddellCanseco

by notsellingjeans on Nov 16, 2008 3:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Small sample size

(A term that is both redundant and overused!)

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 16, 2008 3:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

QOTM

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 5:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cesar Izturis occurrences: 90
grover portion: 23 (26%)

by 74mk on Nov 16, 2008 5:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think I also carry the lion's share of Ray of Sunshine occurrences

Either saying some variation or having it said to me.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2008 5:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Look up incidences of "tranny"

and you may find me owning the lion’s share, as well as the goat’s share, the donkey’s share, and – by shear volume – the sheep’s share.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 16, 2008 8:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sheep share ...

… for the lysdexic. Link NSFN,

where N = Nico.

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Nov 17, 2008 8:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"the sheep’s share"

I heard you don’t like to share your sheep or your tyranny’s, just your donkeys and surprisingly your goats.

"AN, Reducing Work Productivity since 2003", connie mack 11/06/08

by adragon on Nov 18, 2008 12:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The sheep's share must be reduced because of unexpected off-season shearing.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 18, 2008 12:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Reven-ewe shearing?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 18, 2008 5:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Quoth the Reven

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 18, 2008 5:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

nevermoor!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 18, 2008 5:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Quoth of the Month!

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 18, 2008 5:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

we all have our fetishes...

"It wasn't the snooze. Everybody thinks it was the snooze. It was the volume." - the one and only WaddellCanseco

by notsellingjeans on Nov 16, 2008 8:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't.

I just have goats and trannies.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 16, 2008 9:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

74mk...

Are you pulling my leg?

by IM4Oakgal on Nov 16, 2008 3:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Of course not

The above numbers are entirely legitimate, derived from the ever-amusing and fruitful AN search function.

My posts are always 100% in earnest. I do not indulge in absurdism. I am here for serious, considered baseball discussion, and I never allow my commentary to stray from that focus.

If a post does not contain 2-3 acronyms (minimum!) from the Hardball Times stats glossary, I don’t even bother to read it. If someone mentions goats or coeds or hat-eating, I affect an offended smirk, beam bolts of psychic displeasure at my laptop screen, mourn the erosion of decorum in society generally, and move on to the next comment containing wOBA or tRA+.

by 74mk on Nov 16, 2008 5:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, well, what's the percentage of somebody using the word "fucktard"?

And, if nobody has used it before, I’m claiming ownership with 100%.

by thejd44 on Nov 17, 2008 12:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Since you own it, what does it mean?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 17, 2008 12:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Combination of the words "fucking" and "tard"

Highly common word in my area. Its commonly used to describe a method of riding a motorcycle, whether it’s riding above your skill level and then crashing, or generally doing idiotic hooligan stuff like jumping curbs or riding down stairs and whatnot.

by mikev on Nov 17, 2008 7:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, basically.

I didn’t feel like having the Ultra-PC people go off at me because they found the word “retard” offensive.

Not that I care, I just didn’t feel like hearing it at the time.

by mikev on Nov 18, 2008 11:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Umm ...

isn’t that kind of akin to saying I didn’t feel like having the Ultra-PC people go off at me because they found the word “negro” offensive … so I called him a ni**er …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Nov 18, 2008 11:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A niner?

Now THAT’S insulting.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 18, 2008 5:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to go all "ultra-PC" on you or anything, but

Fucktard …

1. is gratuitously dickish

2. is bereft of imagination

3. implicitly denigrates mentally handicapped people (see #1)

4. reminds me of the endless succession of navel-gazing windbags I encountered in college who could always be counted on to confuse aggressive banality and/or casual cruelty with wit

5. also reminds me of super-classy Red Sox “fans” (red-faced and gripping plastic beer cups as though they were life preservers) blathering nonsensical taunts at pitchers in the visiting bullpen at Fenway

The universe of available insults is vast. It seems to me that the only reasons to use “fucktard” are apathy and boorishness.

by 74mk on Nov 18, 2008 11:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If I cared more, I'd comment on the apathy part

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 18, 2008 5:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not close.

I know you’re disappointed. But I’m sure if you apply yourself, you’ll come up with something even more distinctive and sophisticated.

by 74mk on Nov 17, 2008 8:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

{flings putative}

Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@

by monkeyball on Nov 17, 2008 10:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not that it oughtta become anybody's nickname ...

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Nov 17, 2008 1:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Only time I'd ever heard the term, outside AN:

here

Me and the boys thought we had it suss’d, Valentinos, all of us…

And here’s the youtube version, from the pre-Vegas days when he was all quirky and charming. Ahhhhh.

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Nov 17, 2008 12:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

seems like some people sorta value crosby

http://www.blessyouboys.com/2008/11/14/661819/bring-over-bobby-crosby

but only in a , eh…. well, he’s cheap sorta way.

still. quite amused me.

BB should send scouts to watch cricket players.

by alea iacta est on Nov 16, 2008 3:31 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Quick! Before they change their minds!

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 5:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I saw that post

I almost joined the site just to warn them about Crosby.

Almost.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2008 6:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't warn them.

Let them find out like we did. Besides, it’s not as though we’re trying to keep it a secret.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 16, 2008 8:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

lugo

i’ve read the tigers could be interested in trading for lugo, since they could get for cheap from the red sox.

he actually didn’t look too bad this year with a .355 OBP with nice speed.

by dbeach13 on Nov 16, 2008 9:45 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I've been a Lugo fan for a while

And maybe a change of scenery would do him good but his glove has been an issue for some time now and he’d have to hit like he did during his Tampa days to make up for it.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2008 9:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The more I look at this list, the more I hate Bobby Crosby

And I’m seriously pissed off at Beane for trading Blanton, Haren, Harden and Swisher and not getting a single SS prospect in the exchange.

Rafael Furcal is clearly the #1 option on this list and if it wasn’t for the back surgery he had 6 or so months ago I’d be fine with signing him to a 4 year deal. Hell, if he’s willing to include Magglio Ordonez – style language to protect the A’s from his back turning him into a gimp I’d be OK with the deal.

If the price for Furcal becomes too much of a burden or the A’s can’t get language to bail them out of a Challenger-like disaster of his back then I hope the A’s walk away.

Assuming the A’s can’t reach a satisfactory agreement with Furcal, what next? Renteria looked pretty bad in the field last year… and with bat… and he just turned 33. He wants how much? Never mind. Cabrera turns is 34 next year and I disagree with PT in that I believe he’ll be looking for a 3 year deal. He’ll get it in this market and I have less interest in Cabrera for 3 years than I do Furcal for 4 years.

But there’s no way in Hell I can deal with another freakin’ year of Bobby Crosby.

Looking trade route… Miggy’s not really available at this time. Houston’s owner thinks they can contend in ‘09 and their FO is going to do as instructed. If Beane were interested or intent on landing one of Colorado’s SS he’d have snagged him with Holliday. I was a big fan of Brent Lillibridge a year ago, then he messed with his swing to hit for more power even though he’s more Mickey Mouse than Mighty Mouse. Predictable results ensued. Hu is still a guy I like but the Dodgers are going to hold on to him as insurance in case they fail to re-sign Furcal. Hardy is (probably) going to cost too much. I throw the qualifier in there ’cause I figured the same thing about Holliday!

I’ve acknowledged my appreciation of Cesar Izturis before but I was really hoping PT could find someone better. Clint Barmes looks intriguing but Beane’s already visited the Rockie Mountains this Fall, it might be a bit much to expect another successful visit during the dead of Winter. If Adam Everett could really be had for so little (1 year/$2 million) I’d recommend signing him and giving him a chance to show his stuff. Maybe being an extra year removed from his injury will return a spring to his step.

But after all this, I was hoping for a better answer.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2008 9:46 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I say go for Hardy.

He’s head and shoulders above every other option, and just imagine being in the position to not have to worry about SS (baring freak injury) for years to come. I’ve been a Furcal advocate for quite some time but the more I think of his injury risk/ declining abilities that come with age the less gung-ho I am about signing him to a large contract. Sure it would be great if some sort of “insurance policy against a relapse of chronic back problems” can be worded into his deal if signed but really, do we constantly need players in high profile positions that are injury risks?

As PT mentioned he would have a high price tag however he’s proven he can play baseball quite well in the majors and chances are the centerpiece of any trade with the Brewers would not include a player that has. While I do not underestimate the potential for some of the teams top prospects to blossom into very good or maybe even great major leaguers the fact is that as long time A’s fans we often put more value on our high ceiling prospects than we do on some of the great players we talk about trading them for here on AN. We’re so worried about what they could turn into and what we couldmiss out on.

The A’s are always gathering prospects for the future instead of players for now, why not use a big one to snag a very solid major leaguer that’s young enough and good enough to impact both?

by Streams Of Whiskey on Nov 19, 2008 7:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not looking like he's going to have that high of a price tag ...

3-4 years at 14-15 per is not that much anymore …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Nov 20, 2008 12:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The A's are NOT "always gathering prospects for the future instead of players for now"

At least not unless “always” means “since July of 2007.” Which isn’t typically what I mean when I use the term.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 20, 2008 8:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I use "always" interchangeably with "yesterday"

Is that wrong for some reason?

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 20, 2008 10:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're nit-picking the last sentence of my post,

when you and anyone else reading this understands the point being made.

by Streams Of Whiskey on Nov 20, 2008 1:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It is true that fansites overrate a team's prospects

They also overrate other teams’ major league players. I’d say the two at least cancel out.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 20, 2008 2:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You yesterday do that, nevermoor -

I think you even did it just always.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 20, 2008 7:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

See, it makes perfect sense.

I don’t understand what the fuss is about.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 20, 2008 7:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Eh- people are yesterday fussing

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 20, 2008 8:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Crosby then Petit

What PT has shown is that none of the options are all that great, given that Crosby’s over all stats aren’t all that bad when compared with the other options, i.e. everyone else is either better defensively and worse offensively, or vice versa - or injury prone, or expensive via trade or free agency.

I know it’s a small sample size and he’s in Beane’s doghouse, but I like Petit. I’ve noticed that guys who develop into good shortstops generally make the hard plays and muff a lot of the easy ones when they’re young, and seasoning helps. Plus, a lot of guys do eventually learn how to hit after they arrive (Suzuki anyone?). If I were the A’s, I’d stick with Crosby for the year, and have Petit as his back-up, then move over to Petit for 2010.

If Petit can’t hack it, then he’d be replaced in 2011 by either Cardenas or someone that Beane had picked up in the intervening two years.

What PT has shown is that there’s nobody out there, within reason, who will significantly improve the A’s in 2009.

by richwol1 on Nov 16, 2008 9:55 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Cardenas isn't good enough to play SS according to all reports on BA. They need a more

permanent solution and better defender. They’re getting Cahill and Mazzaro and Rodriguez and Anderson all of whom have varying degrees of groundball tendencies. Gio and Duke are the only flyball guys on the prospective staff. I’d take a crappy hitter who can play defense for four years.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 12:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Can hit? I think the word is "can't" hit.

""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.

by Blicks on Nov 16, 2008 3:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A name I have not seen come up at all is

Alex Gonzalez. He had a nice 2007 before being injured for all of 2008. He has only one guaranteed year left on his contract and has been thought to be a good defender in the past (if memory serves me correctly). What I am not sure of is his exact health status (although it seems the Reds are at least acting like he should be back for 2009) or if he would even be availalbe in trade. So, if you crunch the numbers, is this a guy that would be a potential trade target?

by AsFanInLA on Nov 16, 2008 11:46 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

After thinking about this for a day, I'm coming to the conclusion that this analysis is

leading us in a direction we shouldn’t go. It seems biased in favor of offensive players and in favor of veteran players with major league track records. Using Marcel massively understates age related decline on defense and collapse risk for thirtysomething veterans and using huge regressions on younger players defensive projections makes them all look about the same defensively, which they most likely are not.

I’d much rather ignore Chone’s defensive numbers and rely purely on scouting reports, especially since Chone doesn’t really stand behind the numbers himself. Since the groundball tendencies of our future staff (Cahill, Mazzaro, Rodriguez, Anderson, Ziegler) do not enable us to have Jeter Young defense at SS, I’d much prefer a Jason Bartlett type to Edgar Renteria type, and I’d much rather spend the FA dollars on Dunn and/or Manny or even Holliday or Teixeira.

I don’t really care whether we keep Crosby in 2009 or not as long as we have a 4 year young defensive SS in place by 2010.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 12:16 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Then trade for Jason Bartlett... it's actually not the worst idea in the world

The only thing I’m worried about is that Friedman, while he’s undoubtedly smart enough to regard the “team MVP” crap with ridicule, will use it as leverage to extract too much in return for him.

Still, I can’t believe it would take a top prospect to land him.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 12:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd be OK with this, but I doubt the Rays would be fine with Brignac or Zobrist as their starting SS

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 5:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

awesome job PT

that list made it much easier to cross names off the list. Without any viable free agents coming over the next few years, or an in-house option to block, trading for Hardy is the way to go. If he’s really available, and if it can be done without Cahill or Anderson.

Barmes though….interesting.

"This is Rickey, calling on behalf of Rickey."

by scatterbrian on Nov 16, 2008 1:28 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

if it can be done without Cahill or Anderson

Yeah, thing is, I don’t think it can be— at least not without giving up a boatload of other highly talented prospects.

FWIW, I would be willing to part with one of Cahill or Anderson if it meant acquiring Yunel Escobar. The determining factor would, in that case, be how much ELSE the Braves demanded for him.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 8:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why not Hardy for Cahill straight up?

My goal in such a trade would be to sign Hardy to a 3 year deal, running him through his final 2 years of arbitration and his first year of FA eligibility. He stands to make $5-6 million in his next arbitration case, offer him an $8-8-10 million package and have a healthy above average hitting, average defensive SS through his age 26-28 years?

I like Cahill a lot, but the A’s have SP depth. They don’t have a quality SS.

Now, I’m willing to let the A’s pursue Furcal for now while the price isn’t prohibitive. But if the numbers go wonky, or more importantly the A’s can’t get language protecting them from Furcal’s back turning to crap, then maybe Cahill/Hardy should be Plan B.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2008 8:54 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Ask me that a week ago and I'd have turned it down flat

At this point, yeah, I think I’d do that deal if the Brewers would. Cahill and Anderson aren’t the only big-upside pitchers in the system; Hunter has #1 upside, Leon and Inoa are potential studs… even Ross can really bring it if he ever gets his mechanics figured out. Cahill isn’t irreplaceable, just a big hit.

This is why I hate rentals, BTW— hire a rental and suddenly other short-term moves which didn’t make a lick of sense before start looking OK if you squint at them funny and hope a lot.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 9:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather deal quantity.

Mazzaro, Simmons, Richmond, Bailey, etc.

Anderson and Cahill are just too “can’t miss” IMO. I’m not sure Hardy is enough of a sure thing playing in Oakland, and I’d hate to give up a talent like A or C for 2 years of him.

I’d give one of them up for Yunel Escobar, but I still wouldn’t be happy about it.

by mikev on Nov 16, 2008 9:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agree - this is essentially what I say with more words below

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 16, 2008 9:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't do it just for the reason Paul described. It made no sense a week ago.

Nothing much has happened this week.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

[scratches head]

[thinks about it some more]

[goes back to scratching head because he still can’t figure this comment out]

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 9:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe "this week" starts tonight?

Sometimes people have different interpretations of what “this week” or “next Thursday” actually mean.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 16, 2008 9:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I mean you were right a week ago. There have been no events this week

that would make me make a trade now I wouldn’t have made a week ago.

(I see more head scratching now)

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, that means that they believe they can compete in 2009, not

that they’re willing to trade a valuable piece for 2010-2015 to get an equal benefit in 2009-11. This is assuming Cahill’s annual value for 2010-15 is the same as Hardy’s annual benefit for the same years, which I suspect is very generous to Hardy.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 11:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gee, I'm confused here

I was under the impression that the A’s had just traded a valuable piece for 2010-2015 to get a benefit for 2009.

Unless he is an utter bust, there is very little chance that the wins the A’s get out of Matt Holliday will even equal those Carlos Gonzalez provides the Rockies, even forgetting for argument’s sake whatever contributions Greg Smith and Street provide.

If it’s time to trade future value for present value, then it makes sense to cash in Cahill for Hardy. If it isn’t time for that, then the Holliday trade was idiocy.

I also have to say, I think you’re dramatically overrating Cahill to say he’s worth MORE on a per-season basis than a guy who’s already a 2 wins above average player and might well continue to improve on that. There’s ONE prospect in the entire minors I would be comfortable saying that about, and Matt Wieters isn’t going anywhere.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2008 12:05 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

If Cahill is not worth more per season than Hardy, why were

not willing to do the deal last week? Or are you saying he’s worth more over six years but not three, with the PV of years 4-6 being the deciding factor? If you are saying that, I’d be concerned about false precision.

I think the more likely scenario is that the A’s saw Gonzalez and Street as depreciating assets whose value had peaked and thought there was a strong chance they could get more for Holliday between now and July 31 than for Gonzalez plus Smith during that same time frame. They pretty much know the value of Gonzalez and Smith since they must have talked to others about them before trading for Holliday.

They figured why not get a year out of Holliday and either contend if other pieces come together — Chavez healthy, SS problem addressed, young pitchers thrive — or trade him later. This seems a lot more likely to me than their thinking that all of a sudden they need to sacrifice 2010-15 for 2009, especially when Beane has repeatedly said he wasn’t going to do that.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 17, 2008 12:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oops Hardy is signed for two more years, not three.

I don’t think that changes the overall point though.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 17, 2008 12:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It absolutely changes the overall point

It’s not “false precision” to say that Cahill is probably somewhere between 1/3 as good as J.J. Hardy and exactly as good as J.J. Hardy. That’s a huge range by baseball player standards.

Cahill only needs to post 6 seasons as a mediocre innings-eating 4th starter to be better than Hardy on a total value basis. He needs to be substantially better than an average #2 starter to match him on a per season basis.

I’m comfortable saying that Cahill’s 50th percentile projection is somewhere between those two gateposts.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2008 10:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess it is a huge range, but I don't think Cahill

is worse than Hardy at all.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 17, 2008 5:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cahill has thrown 37 pretty-good-but-not-dominant innings in AA

Let’s not get too carried away with his perceived value, or in thinking his future performance is any guarantee. That’s not a slight on Cahill’s abilities, but unfortunately the odds say Hardy has already had a better career than Cahill ever will.

"This is Rickey, calling on behalf of Rickey."

by scatterbrian on Nov 18, 2008 11:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The odds do say that ...

but they also say Cahill is more likely to be a star.

And if you think Cahill was merely “pretty good” in AA …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Nov 18, 2008 11:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...

He did throw 3 Wild Pitches. Wild Pitches are bad.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 18, 2008 11:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He was merely "pretty good" in AA

His Ks dropped below the magic 1 per inning and his walk rate was excessively high.

There are lots of explanations for this besides him suddenly forgetting how to pitch well (league adjustment, fatigue, slight injury, and my favorite, just random fluctuation) but “pretty good” is right about where I’d put his AA line.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 18, 2008 12:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He was still getting ground balls at an oustanding rate ...

and, while I’d agree that the Ks and BBs would mean he wasn’t “dominant” like he as in Stockton, but when you hold hitters to only 8/10 of a hit per inning, that’s more than “pretty good” …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Nov 18, 2008 1:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

and of course there's the small sample caveat

"This is Rickey, calling on behalf of Rickey."

by scatterbrian on Nov 19, 2008 12:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're missing the obvious

The reason why Cahill-for-Hardy didn’t happen last week is because the a’s are pursuing Furcal with vigor. If they sign Furcal they don’t have to trade for Hardy.

If they don’t sign Furcal, then maybe they look trade.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 17, 2008 8:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's the thing about giving up quantity

First off, Richmond and Bailey don’t even belong in this conversation.

Moving on, lets say you could give up Mazzaro and Gio Gonzalez and a 3rd guy (position player not named Cunningham) to land Hardy. You’ve pretty much cut down to the bone in terms of quantity, especially with Smith already gone. Simmons will be in AAA but he’s going to need at least half a season. Folks think I’m a little nuts for saying Anderson might be ready for AAA out of Spring Training. Cahill almost definitly starts the year in AA and I think he needs a full season in the minors.

You’ve got Duke, Gallagher, Eveland, hopefully a vet pick up like Johnson and maybe Outman as your 5th SP. Anything happens to your starting 5 and you no longer have the depth you had to make it up. You’re pretty much depending on Anderson/Cahill to fill your rotation no later than 2010. That could become an issue sooner then you expect.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2008 9:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A week ago I don't even bring it up

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2008 9:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is where I think internal scouting is crucial

All the guys you mention have #1-#2 potential, but which ones will actually reach it? No one knows but you can know who has a much better chance, and I suspect the A’s brass believes Cahill and Anderson are the ones who will actually realize that kind of potential. If so, it’s not a good trade but if secretly they aren’t sure about Cahill then it’s a good trade. Which is probably how Carlos Gonzalez got dealt while Cunningham didn’t, etc.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 16, 2008 9:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm down on Cahill maybe .05%

I still think he could be great and be so within a couple years. Meanwhile, if the A’s don’t sign Furcal (and to Hell with Cabrera/Renteria) they’ll have a gaping hole at SS.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2008 9:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If we didn't have both Cahill and Anderson would anyone want to trade the one we

had left? I think we underrate them because there are two of them so we think we can spare one. Either would be the best A’s pitching prospect I can remember since Mulder or Rijo, and maybe better than those two.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rich Harden?

He struck out 187 batters in 153 minor league innings in 2002.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 10:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ugh. I keep forgetting about that guy.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 11:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not like he pitched much for the A's

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 17, 2008 10:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Question on Stats

How do the stats PT cites translate into wins? If Furcal is 25 runs better than Crosby, Cabrera is 15 runs better and Renteria is 10 runs better, then what does that likely mean for Oakland wins if any of these three were to replace Crosby?

by SA on Nov 16, 2008 4:57 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Question on Stats

How do the stats PT cites translate into wins? If Furcal is 25 runs better than Crosby, Cabrera is 15 runs better and Renteria is 10 runs better, then what does that likely mean for Oakland wins if any of these three were to replace Crosby?

by SA on Nov 16, 2008 4:57 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

10 runs ~ 1 win

I believe, but I’m not certain. (Please correct me if I’m wrong). Thus “25 runs better than Crosby” would be akin to saying, “Furcal adds 2.5 wins onto a previous ‘09 A’s projection that included Crosby.”

"It wasn't the snooze. Everybody thinks it was the snooze. It was the volume." - the one and only WaddellCanseco

by notsellingjeans on Nov 16, 2008 5:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

That would mean outside of Furcal, it’s unlikely any other realistic alternative to Crosby would add more than about one win. It shows that it’s hard to improve a team much by just replacing one guy, even if it’s someone the fans don’t like.

by SA on Nov 16, 2008 5:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's only if you believe Crosby is actually an average fielder, which I do not, and that he's

going to be about the same as all the young defensive SS — Hu, Lillibridge, Alcides — which again, I do not. I think it’s far more likely that these guys are 5-10 runs above average and Crosby is 5-10 runs below average. Dewan had Crosby below average last year, and he’s going to be a year older.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 5:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But then fielding stats do a fair bit of fluctuating anyway

And age is only one aspect (after all, Crosby isn’t old yet)

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 16, 2008 5:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Right, it's very important to account for regression to the mean in these situations

The reason the Smith projections are so useful is that they do that— they incorporate data from several seasons in a weighted average without forcing you to look everything up and convert from one system to another.

As for the specific dudes: I didn’t include Escobar because I assumed he was overly difficult to obtain, but he would probably rate a +10, because the reports on his D are very good; I rated Hu a +5, which is NOT “about the same” as Crosby; and while I’ll be happy to adjust Lillibridge’s rating if someone shows me otherwise, I’ve never read anything on him which suggested that he was a markedly plus defender for the position.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 8:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The 10 runs/1 win is a good one for back-of-the-envelope calculations like this one

It breaks down a little bit at the margins— if your offense is already scoring 900 runs, going to 910 is probably only worth about 9/10 of a win… but that’s splitting hairs.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 8:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I could tolerate Crosby for one more season...

as long as there’s a Holliday, a healthy Chavez, and perhaps a slugger to be named later in the lineup. I would hiss uncontrollably every time he’s at bat, but on the other hand, I’d take comfort in knowing that 09 is the end of the line.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 16, 2008 5:26 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

It's not the end of the line if we don't bring in a replacement. If Petit is that replacement, why not

play him now?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 5:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Seems to me that if he's the best option currently available...

we have to go with him. On the other hand, the 10 season is to far away to predict who will emerge as a strong candidate to replace him. A lot can happen between now and then.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 16, 2008 5:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Odds are any likely replacement for 2010 is at least at AA now. We know the universe.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 8:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

One option no one's discussed is Julio Lugo

A .355 OBP last year. Good speed and defensive tools, but somewhat erratic. Could Gallego fix him? Crosby and Casilla for Lugo? 2 years/$18M plus a vesting option that’s not easily reached if he sucks. Sounds better than Cabrera to me and you can jettison Crosby and maybe get the Red Sox to throw in some cash.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:19 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

If Beane hadn't traded for Holliday? Absolutely.

Going on the idea that the A’s are going to try and contend in 2009, then no, Lugo represents too much of a project to work on.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2008 9:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So it's Furcal or bust for you?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's option #1 I suppose

Although I grit my teeth at the thought of a 4 year deal without Mags-type protection for the A’s.

Plan B… for now, is Cahill for Hardy.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2008 9:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I really hate Cahill for Hardy because I don't like Hardy that much. I'd rather sign Furcal

and cross my fingers, but I’d really not do either and find a cheap solution for SS while signing Teixeira, Dunn, Manny or Holliday long term.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 11:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather not do that.

Let Cahill and Anderson pull Adam Wainwrights next year.

Elite pitching prospects don’t grow on trees. I love Hardy, but I’d try to strike a deal involving other pieces.

I know that's a pisser, baby.

by Blicks on Nov 17, 2008 6:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Escobar more than Hardy

But I also think it would take more than Cahill to get it done.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 17, 2008 8:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well aren't you an eternal optimist

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 17, 2008 9:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not really.

With my luck, Crosby would then go to Atlanta, win a gold glove, put up a .950 OPS, and lead the Braves to the pennant.

by mikev on Nov 17, 2008 9:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And Escobar would find bone chips in his salsa.

Or contract tortilla shoulder.

Or something.

The 2009 A's draft pick... getting higher every game.

by rebus on Nov 17, 2008 9:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If you say it loud enough...

I’m not really concerned about the injury risk. I think we should sign Furcal anyway, if only because having another good hitter in the lineup might finally drive away the obnoxious douchebag complainers in this forum.

Or to put it another way:

So Furcal is fragile? His stick expels all the douches.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Nov 16, 2008 11:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

So you're saying Furcal has a BaNnInG wAnD?

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 17, 2008 10:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Was I too subtle?

Or is the audience here too young?

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Nov 17, 2008 10:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

how about going after Dallas McPherson

I recall people talking about him earlier. Would he be an upgrade over Jackhanahan?

Let's have our Piazza and eat the Cust too - SPWC

by closetasfan on Nov 17, 2008 10:10 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

No

His MLE from this season was about a .720 OPS. Albuquerque is the single most hitter-friendly ballpark in the entirety of organized baseball.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2008 10:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

and he's a bad defender, allegedly.

"I'll make a list for the record. These people should be trusted: Sal, andeux, rfloh, danny...and no one else. Certainly not me. And even extra super-certainly not NSJ."

by notsellingjeans on Nov 17, 2008 11:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Apparently +/- had Izturis at +21 last year.

He sounds like a bargain using Paul’s salary estimates. You could also go for an “offensive” SS, like Renteria, and platoon them. Personally I’d also get Lillibridge/Hu and stash him at AAA.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 17, 2008 6:05 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Also Renteria has massive platoon splits -- career .859 vs lefties, .719 vs righties although

all RH batters supposedly should be regressed to 8% from his 28%. He could also make a nifty 3B platoon partner for Hannahan (or even Chavez), and is more versatile than Baisley. This would only work in a world where Renteria and Izturis are willing to trade a guaranteed starting job for money, and that isn’t likely to happen till January or February, if at all. This gives the A’s plenty of budget to go after Dunn, and still have a puncher’s chance at re-signing Holliday with Chavez coming off the books after 2010.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 17, 2008 7:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Izturis and Lillibridge/Hu is my favorite Plan B, but it's so far below Furcal

Renteria… maybe. I hadn’t thought of the 3B platoon thing. He’d have to be dirt cheap.

The 2009 A's draft pick... getting higher every game.

by rebus on Nov 18, 2008 10:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm for Furcal only if we can have Holliday and Dunn also. If not.....

And I’d still want Lillibridge/Hu as backup

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 18, 2008 4:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Has anyone brought up K. Green?

I would love to see what numbers he would put up out of Petco. PT please do a run-up on him and also what you think it would take to get him, (not much IMO). I also think that nobody is taking in to account the effect that Gallego will have on the infield defense. I would say 60-70% of BoCro’s errors last year were the lazy overthrows to first that can all but be eliminated with the proper drills. Just look what he did for Colorado the last couple of years.

"AN, Reducing Work Productivity since 2003", connie mack 11/06/08

by adragon on Nov 18, 2008 1:07 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Based on Garrett Atkins's defense, I'd say he didn't do much to help them out...

Perhaps that’s unfair, I don’t know… but Helton and Tulowitzki were already good.

In any event, I basically don’t believe in coaching at the major league level. Either you know how to play baseball or you don’t. There’s not much more to be said.

Greene’s numbers are roughly a zero in the field and a .700 Petco OPS, which is in the neighborhood of a league average hitter in that cavern. (30 RAR) So he actually would be a decent buy-low opportunity if the Padres would cough him up for nothing.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 18, 2008 2:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Coaching

I think even for major leaguers, sometimes coaching can help but only in a very limited way. I want to punch people when they talk about teaching fundamentals as if these guys don’t know them. Mostly I think coaches are useful when it comes to helping a player correct a problem.

It can be hard to identify what’s going wrong – even for a professional – when you’re so close to the problem. A person other than the player might be able to pick up on things a little better. But, really, that’s about it. “Hey, you used to do this and now you’re not.” is about the extent of it, I think.

by thejd44 on Nov 18, 2008 2:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Tell that to Chavvy ...

who went from being considered a subpar defender to the best around (when healthy) … or Michael Young, who went from being a laughing stock to better than average, also under Wash’s tutelage …

Sure, the players all know basic fundamentals — get down on the ball and whatnot … but do they know that a simple shift in the hip can both allow them to get down to a grounder more efficiently and also lead them to a smoother throw to first? Do they know that when charging a bunt on the left side of the infield, they should actually end up throwing off of the wrong foot? Do they know the subtleties of a batter’s swing, pitch type and location that can allow them to adjust their position before the ball is even put in play?

There’s always room for improvement. No player should ever stop learning.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Nov 18, 2008 2:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And, if he did know, would that stop him from swinging at it?

The 2009 A's draft pick... getting higher every game.

by rebus on Nov 18, 2008 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He knows it about as well as Charlie Brown knows that

Lucy will pull the football at the last moment.

Players absolutely do learn after they reach the major leagues. Hatteberg at 1B is another example, as is even Eveland simplifying his windup. Baseball is a game of constant adjustments, which includes always staying ahead of the learning curve.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 18, 2008 5:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Whereas I think that most of those "adjustments"

are little more than placebos and amateur-psychological pabulum which confuses players into thinking they’ve actually changed something, so that they have a psychic excuse to dismiss their past failures rather than dwelling on them.

Now, that doesn’t apply to something like throwing a new pitch or actually learning a new position— those obviously involve some kind of actual knowledge.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 18, 2008 5:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

Especially on things like “Do they know that when charging a bunt on the left side of the infield, they should actually end up throwing off of the wrong foot?”

There is a lot of subtle footwork that might not be taught (or at least emphasized) in lower levels because the players aren’t good enough for it to really matter.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 18, 2008 6:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No disrespect or anything ...

but given that you’re someone who has never played a whole lot of baseball, I think you’re somewhat treading into Morgan-esque waters here …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Nov 18, 2008 11:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

SS

Ok we all have to realize that with all the rumors I think Crosby is as good as done in Oakland because I think its pretty clear that the A’s are actively pursuing other options and that cant make crosby happy.

Personally I would like to see Furcal, the A’s have been dying for a true leadoff hitter since…well Rickey Henderson left and Furcal would/could fill that void. I think my next option would have to be Yunel Escobar or JJ Hardy again I would yield to Yunel in this instance for the fact of personal preference and I see something in him I dont in JJ. My final option would be Renteria and I personally believe these guys are all upgrades over Crosby.

by yawedout21 on Nov 18, 2008 5:13 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Furcal's .352 career OBP makes him decidely not a true leadoff hitter

Especially if you don’t consider Johnny Damon a true leadoff hitter. Or Good Jason Kendall.

I’m on board with a Furcal deal after the Holliday trade, but not because I think he’d be anything special at the top of the order. I’m not even sure I’d have him hitting any higher than 6th.

by thejd44 on Nov 18, 2008 10:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No.

His OBP, I’d guess, is no better than average for a leadoff hitter.

And you actually want base-stealers near the bottom of the order, not the top.

by thejd44 on Nov 18, 2008 10:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

6th would probably be the best spot

By “bottom” I meant 6-9, and I’m sure Furcal will end up being the best hitter out of that group.

A healthy Buck would probably be the best leadoff option on the team. High OBP, doubles power (which makes hurting the guys behind you by being a base-stealer a moot point).

by thejd44 on Nov 18, 2008 11:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Didnt realize his career OBP was that low but I will say he wont hit 6th you dont sign a guy to that kind of money and hit him behind that many guys..Hed be hitting in the top 3 probably leadoff. and ya mikev .440 is good for a leadoff hitter if you consider he played 30-40 games or whatever.. It will be interesting IF they sign him

by yawedout21 on Nov 19, 2008 10:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely

Speed is a powerful motivator for the top of the order…I would hope that if the A’s sign him they teach him the typical A’s discipline and his OBP will go up because of this and in turn he becomes a better leadoff hitter.

by yawedout21 on Nov 19, 2008 2:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd bat him 2nd, behind Sweeney

(or Buck/Cunningham). I think he’d be a very good #2 hitter in front of Cust, Holliday, Chavez et al.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 19, 2008 6:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Oakland Athletics.

Community Guidelines ANcillary Terms
Start posting about the Athletics »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Pulp_fiction_small
A's interested in Cuban defector Arguelles
Wishyouwerehere250_small
AFL PitchFX Pt. 1: James Simmons
Imgp0089_editedagasin_small
DLD 11/24/09 - Fine, I'll make another video game dump
Me_at_att_park_small
Greener Grass, Episode 7: Transportation Proclamation
Me_at_att_park_small
Old McPherson is an A, e yi e yi yoooooooo

Recent FanPosts

Waregroupcheck_small
DLD 11.25.09 - Thanksgiving eve
Small
The A's Move to Oakland in 1968
Funny-pictures12_small
If Jack Cust Traded, Then To Whom And For What?
Small
Jack Cust Drawing Trade Interest?
Depaulbluedemons_small
Community Prospect List #18

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >