Why not just go after Texeira?
All the talk about going after Furcal or a borderline average pitcher makes me think, Why not save the money and go after Texeira and put him at first base for the next 6-8 years? Texeira is a proven hitter and is a gold glove at first base. He will probably be asking for 15M per for 6 years. To this, I say PAY HIM. This money is better spend on Tex than on a questionable Furcal coming back from injuries and on the wrong side of age 30, or Randy Johnson or Ben Sheets or any other questionable pitcher who may or may not be any good after we signed him.
WIth Tex and Holliday, we can afford to have deadweight Crosby at SS and it wouldn't hurt our offense too badly. If we don't contend and decide on a salary dump, Tex should have high trade value as he is only entering his prime.
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124 comments
Comments
This post would be quite legitimate if Teixeira was actually asking for 6/$90M
Since that’s delusional, however, it kind of undermines your point. Teixeira is not signing for less than $20M a year, and I suspect someone’s going 7 or even 8 years for him.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 1:40 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I like that you use "M" instead of "MM"
I could never understand why people use “MM.” Does it stand for multi-million? If so, that’s as rediculous as “MT” (multi-thousand).
The Maharg makes me look like an idiot.
by carp on Nov 15, 2008 7:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's using roman numerals as shorthand
M=A thousand, MM=A thousand thousands
by Lafayette Scotsman on Nov 15, 2008 8:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and I take it you're opposed to that deal?
Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@
by monkeyball on Nov 15, 2008 8:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
If the A’s are going to spend that much on someone, spend it on Holliday.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 10:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would not be supprised if the Yankees gave him a 23+ million per year deal
facepalm.jpg
by Zonis on Nov 15, 2008 1:42 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yankees are maxing out at 5 years for Teixeira
according to Rosenthal
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2008 6:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
if ....
teixeira is asking for 15 mil a year, i am sure billy beane would be after him already
by Wreckonized on Nov 15, 2008 1:59 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
torii hunter makes more than 15 mil a year
"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra
by Cheezombie on Nov 15, 2008 2:10 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
The Yankees are
looking to offer Tex a shorter term, higher dollar contract for about 4-5 years and probably 20+ million. IMO, he’s easily the best FA investment this offseason. He’s young, he’s a great hitter, and he plays GG defense at first. I don’t think he’s going to get that 10 year contract Boras is supposedly seeking, but I think he’ll get at least 7 years. Prior to the Holliday trade I wouldn’t have even seen a chance in hell the A’s kick the tires on him, but things have changed. If the A’s really do have somewhere in the neighborhood of $25 million to spend, I think they will at least discuss Teixeira. It is, however, highly unlikely they will make an offer that will hang with those of the Angels, and Orioles. If he were somehow signed Barton could be used in a package for a 3B. It’s probably a pipedream, but so was Matt Holliday and the A’s making a run in 09’.
by JPShark on Nov 15, 2008 8:16 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Here's the relevant question
Assuming the A’s are willing to 7 years/ $20+ million on any one hitter, would it be better to invest it in Holliday a year from now or Teixeira now?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 15, 2008 8:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that minimizes the resources
As I said to PT in the Furcal thread, we have Holliday now, and he could be converted into prospects or draft picks who would complement Teixeira were we to sign him. If you avoid Teixeira entirely and just extend Holliday, you’ve only got Holliday for roughly the same expense (a million here, a million there).
Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@
by monkeyball on Nov 15, 2008 9:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
(and, yes, I know I just contradicted myself below)
Yeah, if we sign Tex to a 3-year deal and keep Holliday for all of ‘09 and then let him walk for draft picks, those draft picks and Tex will never wear white cleats at the same time. But we’d still have the draft picks (plus, presumably, the picks for when we let Tex walk after 3-4 years).
Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@
by monkeyball on Nov 15, 2008 9:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yes but
wouldn’t we be giving up draft picks to sign texeira in the first place?
by stranahanahan on Nov 15, 2008 12:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd choose Holliday because you get more positional flexibility -- LF/RF/DH vs 1B/DH
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you misunderstood where I was going with that
The A’s could theoretically have both this year, but they’d have to let Holliday walk next year. I’m just asking, investment wise, which would you rather have long term? One year of Holliday AND Tex would be freakin’ awesome but if you believe that Holliday is going to be the better player/investment long term then you could be setting yourself up for long term disappoinment (relatively speaking, of course) for short term bliss.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 15, 2008 9:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take either.
To me, they look like similar hitters all things considered. I would expect Holliday to have a slightly better BA in the AL then Tex’s career numbers, but similar in terms of OPS. The reason I like Tex is because although Holliday is a good LF, Tex is a gold glove 1B. IMO, thats harder to find. When all is said and done it’s a coin flip to me. Either guy would be nice to build a franchise around.
by JPShark on Nov 15, 2008 10:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I honestly don't know enough to say whether Holliday or Tex would be the better LT signing
For the sake of argument, I’ll concede that Holliday might be/is the better LT investment. You’re still not responding to my economic/roster/resource-maximizing point.
Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@
by monkeyball on Nov 15, 2008 10:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Monkey, it's penny-wise pound-foolish
The added wins from Holliday being a better player (IMO) and probably getting paid less (because more of his value comes from defense) outweigh the value of those draft picks, which isn’t all that high.
Given the choice between adding wins at the top of the talent bell curve and adding them at the bottom, you have to pick the top because it’s so much more difficult to find that kind of player.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 10:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
fair 'nuff
So—trade Holliday in July for far-right-side-of-the-bell-curve (the “top” would be the mediocre middle, wouldn’t it? Yes, I’m splitting hairs.), MLB-ready prospects.
Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@
by monkeyball on Nov 15, 2008 10:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Far-right-side of the bell curve prospects
that are MLB ready don’t get traded for short-term rentals. Generally speaking you can pick high-upside or MLB ready but not both.
I know someone’s going to come back at me with Matt LaPorta, to which my reply is: he’s not that good.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 11:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My official answer is that it's practically interchangeable
With EITHER Holliday OR Teixeira long term, the A’s are in serious business, and without both they’re back to seriously lacking an impact bat to hit 4th, needing to spend mucho money or trade primo talent to solve a black hole.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 11:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And another answer to the "either/or" quandary
is potentially found in part of “the Nico plan” as laid out earlier this week- namely, let Holliday walk at the end of 2009 and become the pre-eminent FA hitter/outfielder on the market and then swoop in and sign Jason Bay to a long-term deal for less money and years than Holliday will want.
Under that scenario, I don’t see why the A’s couldn’t go after Teixeira now and have him for 2009 in the middle of the line-up with Holliday, and then potentially have him in the middle of the line-up in 2010 with Bay.
Throw Cust and a healthy Chavez into that middle of the order each year, and suddenly you’re in serious business.
I suppose it’s reaching a bit, but not impossible- and with that much firepower in the middle of the line-up I think you could safely go with a “defense first” shortstop option and be competitive.
As far as resources go, there’s always the hope that the A’s can dump Crosby off on somebody in return for at least some salary relief.
A question in terms of the $80MM figure being floated around and dissected, too- is this the full operating budget, or is this just the MLB team payroll? Because if it’s just the MLB team payroll figure that Wolff et al are ok with paying, then all this talk about “we can’t afford them because it leaves no money for international signings and draft budget” doesn’t seem relevant. I don’t know either way, just asking.
by still bills kingdom on Nov 15, 2008 1:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The quote from Wolff was something like "we can go up to $80 million"
I infer from that that they could make it that high if they cut back on amateur player procurement (but didn’t eliminate it entirely), but since I don’t want to do that, I would not be comfortable taking the MLB payroll above a maximum of $75 million.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough, and probably a sound inference.
Thanks for clarifying.
by still bills kingdom on Nov 15, 2008 2:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: the resource-maximizing point
Sure, it would be a neat trick to add Holliday, sign Tex and a year from now get two draft picks when Holliday hits the FA market. But you don’t know how good those picks are going to be (cough cough) to sacrifice the better player (if you prefer Holliday) for the sake of undisclosed draft picks seems foolish.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 15, 2008 12:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Grrrr
Zito’s name was supposed to be in the middle of the coughing fit.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 15, 2008 12:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, are you saying Barry Zito was a bad draft pick?
Or that the players the A’s picked with his draft picks were bad? (One of them was Sean Doolittle.)
I’m confusticated by that comment. Although I don’t disagree with it, mostly because no matter how high the draft picks are in the pecking order they still aren’t worth very much.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 12:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Remember when everyone talked about letting Zito walk for draft picks?
Folks kept talking about getting 2 1st rounders in return… well, that didn’t happen. The A’s got the Giants’ 2nd round pick.
That’s where I was going with that.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 15, 2008 1:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just for the record, while I think Sean Doolittle is a pretty damn good prospect,
I agree with this sentiment in general. Draft picks are very overvalued by the petit bourgeoisie of the baseball blogging community.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 8:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sean Doolittle is a pretty damn good prospect who's been earning passing grades for his play in RF
That’s all I gotta say about that.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 16, 2008 9:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd give him a B. Is that "pretty damn good" or do you think he's better?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a pretty damn good grade
Although if someone knocked it down to his AA struggles and general whiffing of the bat I wouldn’t be too offended.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 16, 2008 9:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd vote B+, personally
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 10:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't he used to be a pretty good pitcher?
by NateHST on Nov 17, 2008 2:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He put up good numbers in college
But scouts didn’t think he had a future on the mound.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 17, 2008 2:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you might be overstating that a bit
I heard he was a 3rd round-ish talent as a pitcher. Which is still pretty good.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2008 3:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You heard different then I did
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 17, 2008 5:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
invest in a Holliday extension now!
Why wait? If you’re BB, you have to at least plant that seed in the heads of Holliday and Boras. If the A’s make a play now and say, “Hey, we really want to keep you and build the team around you…..here is a starting point for negotiating a contract extension that provides you with plenty of security etc….” don’t you think they would at least have to “consider” it?
Texieira is a very talented player, yes, but I am more interested in signing someone that fills the void of corner outfielder rh power hitter that is “already” an Athletic. The A’s have more options at first anyway, even though there is no Texieira in the system.
by mrod on Nov 16, 2008 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Start the rumor
The A’s should low ball Tex with a 6 year 90 million deal even though he will not bite on it. Boras will take that offer and brag on how the a’s are offering a 6 year deal. It will drive up the price on the Angels who will not want the A’s to beat them.
by Arcman on Nov 15, 2008 9:05 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Given that logic, why not go ahead and offer an 8-9 year deal?
If he were to accept an 8/120 deal or even a 9/135 deal, the A’s would be sitting pretty. When he doesn’t, Boras has “an 8-9 year offer on the table!” to build on.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 11:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I love it
Tell Boras we’ll make a 9/91 offer to get goodwill going into Holliday negotiations.
“Tex has received a nine year offer at 8 figures per year”
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 12:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Doooooo it....
Allows Boras to screw with the Angels.
""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.
by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm all for it
How about one-upping the Yanks’ supposed plan, and offering Tex a 4-year, $105M package? Or, heck, a three-year, $105M package? All of Tex’s risk for the team that signs him is on the far back end, when he’s likely to have declined. Give him the big up-front payday (when he and his accountant, if not his agent, should know that those upfront dollars are worth more than inflation-depreciated dollars 7 years down the road)—with the opportunity to, if he stays healthy and productive, make yet another big-contract killing in 3 to 4 years?
Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@
by monkeyball on Nov 15, 2008 9:12 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
it will be interesting to see
If these kind of contracts catch on. B/c the general practice now is to average the contract out, which means you underpay for the productive years and then overpay the decline years. If you offer a player huge money up front he wins, the team wins – the team that theoretically gets screwed is the next team that signs him. But what if the next team offers the same kind of deal? In the end it seems like the player’s just shifting the risk around (“I might/will decline” vs. “Get while the getting’s good”) and hoping that there will always be some team dumb enough to overpay for decline years. But how much longer will there be dumb teams? In the end I think the current structure stays, though I could see some megastars going this route.
by jdr on Nov 15, 2008 9:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see an argument for the long contracts
As you say, it seems to be in everyone’s interests—except those of the teams that don’t want to pony up short-term cash.
The reason those contracts aren’t offered, it seems to me, is because of Bud’s Kollusion Klub.
Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@
by monkeyball on Nov 15, 2008 10:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No
It’s for the players. So they aren’t in the Giambi position where they have a year or two more productive career but no contract (and no one is especially excited about signing them because they’re, well, 38)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 12:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's probably more for the players but both benefit
Players, because you have no idea what’s going to happen in 6 years. A career ending injury, loss of skills, etc. To take a short-term big-money contract you have to really make it worth their while because they could blow out their arm/knee/brain tomorrow.
For the front office, these guys don’t know what’s going to happen in six years either. All they know is that it’s likely they won’t be around anymore, but they have to sign the guy today. Just get his name on the line – plus you’re getting him cheap for the first few years while you’re in office. Five years from now, then you try to figure out what to do with the guy.
by jdr on Nov 15, 2008 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The A's don't have enough money to make those offers
I mean, that’s just a fact of life. You sign Tex for that, you can’t upgrade any other position in the lineup. Not only that, but your payroll remains crippled for the length of the contract— by the end of which, Teixeira is likely to be blocking at least 1 if not 2 quality prospects given the A’s farm system as it stands.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 10:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
disagree on all points
The A’s do have enough money to afford it, they just don’t want to spend it.
So what if Tex is the only FA we sign this year and next? (After Chavez clears, there’d be additional room.) With the additions of Tex and Holliday, even with status quo on the L side of the IF, that’s a very good lineup—and an outstanding D.
“Crippled,” I don’t think so. Limited and dependant on Tex remaining healthy, sure. But that’s only for 2 years (see Chavez comment above).
And not only are our prospects not guaranteed to pan out, if Tex is only here three years, they might not be ready even if they do pan out—and even if they are ready, they can be flipped, or their service clock can be delayed, or they can be worked into the lineup slowly.
Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@
by monkeyball on Nov 15, 2008 10:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I really do mean "crippled", as in "trading away/nontendering Jack Cust because you can't pay his arbitration raise" crippled
“Skipping international prospects” crippled. “Drafting only players who will sign below-slot deals” crippled.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 11:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
Add $25M/year to our budget and we still have lots of room (inflation by the end of the K probably making it look downright reasonable)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 12:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He was talking about paying him $35 million a season...
which would push the team well past the $80 million guideline set out by Wolff.
Even at $25 million per, you’re at $75M just next season. That’s barely enough room to tread water in amateur signings (pay slot, sign some not-elite IFAs) even if the MLB team doesn’t sign any other players at all. The year after that, it’s worse because players start getting legitimate arbitration raises.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
2010 is where a bunch of guys are looking at arby raises
When that happens, the A’s have the potential to clear $15 million off the books by letting Chavez and Ellis walk.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 15, 2008 12:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how Cust will do
Hopefully the world will still hate strikeouts.
by jdr on Nov 15, 2008 1:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I assume you mean 2011?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 2:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know where my freakin' head is this weekend
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 15, 2008 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but that isn't crippled exactly because we lose the Chavez salary (and who knows with Ellis)
a $65M team salary is certainly not as crippled as you were saying (although I agree $35M/year on one player does make things awfully tight)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Chavez is signed through 2010...
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 4:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And Holliday's contract wouldn't be flat...
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 5:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What's that supposed to mean?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 15, 2008 5:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It means the contract is almost guaranteed
to be signed on paper that curls up at the bottom. Like an unwrapped scroll.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 5:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That he won't be paid $25M/year
But rather increasing amounts to reach the (hypothetical) 6/150 total.
So his 2010 impact is less than $25M, so the fact that Chavez is still signed is less of a problem.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Nov 15, 2008 5:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably backloaded.
""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.
by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 6:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That sounds kinky and possibly controversial
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 6:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we need to be a bit practical here
3 years/$105 million is crippling since the A’s are talking about an $80 million budget. In fact, the A’s couldn’t sign Tex to that deal without going over $80 million this year, so that’s a problem.
That said, keeping in line with the $80 million figure, the A’s could sign Tex to your proposed 4 year/$105 million offer. You’re basically talking $26 million vs. $35 million annual, that’s a pretty big difference. The key here is what other things you want to do. You might be able to sign a 1 year SP like Johnson or Penny as we’ve discussed previously but if you did that you’re definitely limiting your draft/signing budget. If you want to keep the amateur budget flush you’re going to struggle to sign a quality arm to back up Duke in the rotation.
You certainly aren’t bringing in Furcal to replace Crosby! In fact, plan on Crosby being your starter again in 2009.
(Wow, I hate you for making me say those words.)
That extra $4 million or so you’ve committed to Tex to get him to sign a shorter-term deal really cuts into your other options. Choose wisely, my friend.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 15, 2008 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The fact that folks are even entertaining the idea
of paying one player in the 25-35 million per year dollar range is making me want to dig out my bong from the closet……….
by mrod on Nov 16, 2008 1:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Quite possibly the funniest mental image ever
What would a gay bong look like, exactly?
:D
by mikev on Nov 17, 2008 11:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
why not Burrell?
if the money is reasonable and they miss out on furcal…adding his bat would deepen the lineup
The market for Pat Burrell may be slow to develop, as teams weigh their offseason desires. Though Manny Ramirez and Burrell aren’t in the same free-agent class, they do play the same position, so teams may want to see where he ends first before turning to Burrell.
http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/11/burrell_market.html
by Asfan4ever723 on Nov 15, 2008 9:26 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't be opposed to that, either
Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@
by monkeyball on Nov 15, 2008 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the A's have run out of positions for Burrell
Holliday will be in the OF, Sweeney is the only everyday CFer, Cust is DH. I guess you could move Holliday to RF and forego both Buck and Cunningham. It’s a pretty weak OF defensively, but it’s nice on offense.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 11:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Play him at first base
I suspect, though I can’t prove, that he would be superior to Dunn defensively. Dunn is a klutz. Burrell is just really really slow.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Burrell play 3B in college?
At least he probably knows what a 1B glove looks like.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 15, 2008 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yes
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
by flipgatey3 on Nov 15, 2008 1:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Burrell is a DH with a glove.
He should not be in the field, period. The A’s have a DH in Cust.
""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.
by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Teixiera
Around 3 weeks ago, I took alot of criticism for suggesting we even look at signing Teixiera. I vowed to never return. However, AN & all of its excellent posts are too good to live without.
I got into it with PT for suggesting Teixiera or a player of his caliber may have a positive / unquantifiable effect or what I call the “Teixiera” effect on the entire A’s line-up or any MLB line-up he happens to be in. I tried to quantify presence but its difficult. Can we agree that Teixiera’s better than what we presently have & would help the A’s win more games? How many more wins is debatable.
Of course Teixiera cannot physically improve another player’s performance. That was not my point. Does a player of Teixiera’s caliber though, improve the ability & probability that a team with him in the line-up, has a better chance of winning? We then got into win shares, etc, with the cost of each win versus the cost of a cost controlled first baseman such as Hatteburg.
My other point was the A’s actually have the $$ to sign Teixiera. It appears we actually could sign Teixiera if Beane wanted to. To comprehend this, would have been heresy a year ago. IMO, I would much rather have the A’s sign Teixiera over Giambi or anyone else.
by alpine26 on Nov 15, 2008 10:05 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
He absolutely improves the number of games that the team that signs him will win...
I estimate him as worth approximately 5 wins above a replacement level player. That is a LOT of wins— there are probably not more than about 30 players in MLB that are that good.
The problem is, as I said, that the A’s just don’t have the scratch to obtain him and fill out the rest of their roster. And— my nightmare scenario— it would prevent the A’s from signing Holliday… and Holliday is going to fit bloody well perfectly into the Angels’ post-2009 roster. That player swap is a loser for Oakland.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 10:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
identify the other roster spots we need to fill with FAs
(Yes, I know there’s a handful of players due arb raises.)
Did you overpay for those eggs? @('.')@
by monkeyball on Nov 15, 2008 10:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Shortstop... probably 3rd in 2011... probably an outfield spot
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2008 11:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Cardenas/Weeks for two of 2B/3B/CF
I wouldnt’ spend a lot on a SS since none of them excite me.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope the Angels extend Vlad.
And I’d rather the Angels sign Manny than Teixeira. Please.
""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.
by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 1:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
alpine26, you may or may not have seen this Nov 4th post
http://www.athleticsnation.com/2008/11/4/652090/because-your-mind-is-reall
but I posed the question recently as well.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 11:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
sign Holliday
1b should fairly easy position to fill. Holliday is an all-around player — pay him. Veteran right-handed power hitter at 1b would be nice. Burrell would be good fit. Let Barton hit .330 with 25 hrs at Sac. before he gets his next shot — prove yourself in minors before you waste our time at MLB level (last year’s struggle did no good for barton or franchise)
by BlueMoon on Nov 15, 2008 1:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this. There's Barton -- and if not him, Doolittle and Carter.
Although I guess Carter could be LF in the Cust sense.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Response
There is an excellent core of regulars here who really make this a great site. I am in & out of my house & I do not stay on the computer. If I fail to not make a quick response, please do not take this as ignoring any of you. I will chime in from time to time, because I truly enjoy AN, its content & its contributors.
My response would be the A’s have decided they can increase their payroll to a maximum of 80 Million dollars. If this is true, they could afford three players in the Chavez, Holliday & Teixiera price range. Over 10 million & South or a little North of 20 Million. The question remains what other player do you want. This is just for the 2009 A’s & their current fiscal restraint. If & when a new stadium is built, we as fans & critics can dream or criticize even more. Beane & Forst has set this up perfectly for 2009.
There was an excellent post awhile back about who would be the A’s first 100 Million dollar player. What if Holliday maintains his current productivity in 2009, likes the A’s, & is willing to sign for a fair market contract? IMO, the Holliday trade has truly spun AN & the franchise on its head.
What I keep hearing is there will be value in both Type A & B players after the elite free agents are signed. I would expect Beane to jump in & sign someone after the premium guys are signed. Beane is so completely unpredictable. We can go in any number of directions.
by alpine26 on Nov 15, 2008 1:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
This caught my eye.
What I keep hearing is there will be value in both Type A & B players after the elite free agents are signed. I would expect Beane to jump in & sign someone after the premium guys are signed. Beane is so completely unpredictable. We can go in any number of directions.
Which there will be. I wouldn’t be objected to picking up Renteria or Cabrera on a one year deal ONLY ala Kyle Lohse of 2008.
""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.
by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd object to one year for Renteria
And that doesn’t address what to do after 2009 for SS
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Holliday is a better target than Teixeira.
1. Both Holliday and Teixeira are great defensive players at non-premier defensive positions. Teixeira is better though.
2. There is more demand for first basemen than there are OF.
""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.
by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 1:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Which makes no sense since there are 2 corner OF positions
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
mark TEIxeira
why not just go after kanekoa TEXeira and nick swisher?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Nov 15, 2008 7:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Or at least trade for the sea otter on his head
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Nov 15, 2008 7:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't see Swish clean shaven
""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.
by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 10:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Or in a Yankees uniform.
""Bobby Crosby’s Release" - Sounds like a good title to Mr. Crosby’s first work in his next career now that we know he can’t play baseball." - Joey C.
by Blicks on Nov 15, 2008 10:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Too much money...
And he plays a position where the A’s have some minor league depth, and some potential talent with Barton. Especially when you have Carter and Doolittle who could be competing for the job in 2/3 years. You don’t want to buy an asset you already have, improve where you don’t have anything going.
There isn’t too much in the way of SS in the system. Crosby was kind of our attempt at a franchise SS, didn’t work out to well.
by JamesCaprio on Nov 16, 2008 9:19 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Billy Beane
has basically come out and said he doesn’t plan on signing anything in the way of free agent starting pitching. It sounds like he wants to give the young guys a chance to shine with a good offense backing them. A lineup with Holliday/Teixeira in the 3-4 holes is gonna be good, period. It sounds like the Yankees don’t want to offer Tex a 5+ year contract so in JPSharkland (thanks PT), i’m hoping this lowers their chances of signing Tex quite a bit. The Yankees are one team I really expected to go out and offer 10 years $200 million to Tex, and still make a play on Sabathia. I think if Beane wants to have a good offense next year, a guy like Teixeira is worth $5 million more a season then guys like Burrell/Dunn/Giambi. Tex is one helluva hitter, and he can actually PLAY DEFENSE. I think the A’s should offer Tex a legit contract, something like 8 years $150 million and make it a little backloaded. This will give us Tex during his prime, and yes some of his decline, but overall it would be a solid deal for the A’s if you consider what Teixeira caliber players are going to be making in 3-5 years. After dropping half of Crosby’s contract the payroll would be sitting somewhere around $67 million, and Beane could still go out and sign Orlando Cabrera to a 2 year $16 million dollar contract. For the record, I still like him better then Renteria. Barton can be moved to 3B if Chavez isn’t healthy, or packaged in a deal for a young 3B.
by JPShark on Nov 16, 2008 11:12 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
And if the A's can't sign Tex?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Nov 16, 2008 11:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If the A's
fail to sign Tex then I think they go as planned and still try to pump up the offense, but consider adding a veteran starter on a short-term deal. I still say a trade for a younger SS who is two or more years away from free agency is the way to go. This of course if they can do so without trading away any of our “prime” minor league talent in Carter/Doolittle/Cardenas/Anderson/Cahill. The A’s system is deep enough that there is still loads of good talent behind those guys, and enough to deal for a solid SS IMO. This would mean the A’s will be committing less money to fill the SS void, leaving a chunk to add a starter and another bat.
by JPShark on Nov 16, 2008 11:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I want
to add that I realize 8 years seems like a lot but lets face it, the A’s are going to have to offer something pretty attractive to lure Teixeira away from the Angels/Orioles. Tex will still be playing for the A’s (barring a trade) through his age 36 season, where I think he will still be a productive player.
by JPShark on Nov 16, 2008 11:16 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'd think they'd have to exceed the Angels by about $10M to get him or offer some no-trade protection
or both
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was not possible to sign more than a six year deal in California?
Didn’t that point come up quite awhile ago? Can anyone clarify please?
by mrod on Nov 16, 2008 1:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
It's a law
But the MLB collective bargaining agreement supplants it. The law exists only to protect actors from signing their life away to studios (as used to happen).
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Nov 16, 2008 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for clarifying NM
There is still now way I could justify doing an 8 year deal for any of those guys…..nuh-uh, no way Jose’.
by mrod on Nov 16, 2008 1:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
One other minor but worthwhile consideration when it comes to Teixeira-
if the A’s can sign him it takes him away from the Angels.
Strengthening your own team while weakening the opposition within your division is a reasonable strategem, when applicable and when the opportunity arises.
So it is also possible to consider the money spent in signing Tex as not only money spent improving the A’s offense long-term but also money spent weakening the offense of your (for now) chief division rival.
by still bills kingdom on Nov 16, 2008 1:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
This is true in theory, but if the A's sign Teixeira and then let Holliday walk...
I think he signs with the Angels.
Whereas I’m somewhat doubtful that Teixeira does.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2008 8:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd think he signs with the Red Sox who let Bay walk or the Yankees who let Damon walk
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that's where I'm at on the Holliday free agent picture, too...
but it’s at least the second time PT has brought up the prospect of the Angels signing Holliday if/when he reaches free agency, which makes me think he knows something or has some analysis of the “Angels in the Outfield” situation that leads him to strongly believe the halos would go after Holliday.
PT- why do you think the Angels would strongly pursue and probably sign Holliday in the 2009 offseason?
I’m genuinely curious- it seems most conventional wisdom (for whatever that’s worth- often not too much, agreed) is the Red Sox will go after him hard and have long coveted him, and that the Yankees would have more than a passing interest (they really need to rebuild/reload their outfield as it is, and definitely starting next winter if they haven’t done so prior) too.
Do you think the Angels will let Vlad walk after this season, or move him to strictly a DH role? I guess that would create enough holes in the OF that they would go after somebody…
I dunno. I think if it came down to the Angels, Red Sox, and Yankees for Holliday and the money were the final decider then the Yanks still have the deepest pockets… followed by the BoSox… and then the Angels. I would put the Angels in third place, with a puncher’s chance at best, in terms of Holliday suitors after the 2009 season here…
And I suppose that’s another reason why I think the A’s should go after Teixeira now instead of waiting to try and re-sign Holliday after 2009 (since none of us believe that Holliday is going to sign an extension prior to this season or during) if they’re truly looking for a big bat to lock up long-term: I don’t honestly believe the A’s have a shot at re-signing him, while I can actually see the A’s having a legitimate shot at Teixeira this offseason because the market seems more limited and I’m not convinced the two biggest spenders are going to pursue him (Yanks, BoSox.)
And I still like Nico’s idea that by guaranteeing Holliday goes on the FA market next offseason the A’s are trying to make him the attention-getter so they can quietly make Bay an offer he can’t refuse and get him to be the right-handed stick and competent LF for a few years after 2009.
And I really, really like (yes, it’s just wishful thinking but it’s fun) the idea of a 2009 A’s line-up featuring Holliday and Teixeira in the middle of it. That’s just such an awesome thought, it’s hard to let go… :)
by still bills kingdom on Nov 17, 2008 9:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bottom line is, the Angels' outfield in 2010 right now is Torii Hunter, Gary Matthews Jr. and Reggie Willits
There is simply no way they will allow that to happen. There’s nothing on their farm which will upgrade that, either. Peter Bourjos doesn’t have the bat to play a corner position, and I don’t think they’ll be moving Mr. Gold Glove off of center anytime soon.
They need a core hitter who plays a corner outfield position. They love batting average, stolen bases, and athleticism, while grumpily acknowledging that they need power as well. And they’ll be wading in cash— I don’t expect them to re-up Guerrero (combination of him getting old and injured, and lingering irritation over his performance in the playoffs) and they’ll have about $30 million in ready-to-spend dollars even if they use up every cent of the free money they have THIS offseason, which is itself considerable (about $25 million).
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2008 9:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I definitely agree with your reasoning on them needing to upgrade the OF
because I don’t see them having any decent enough OF prospects now, either.
You really think they won’t re-sign Vlad, though? I sort of see them as more likely to keep him and have him mostly DH the rest of his career… but I guess they might cut him loose if they just think he’d be too expensive relative to potential production. That’s a tough one, not sure how it plays out. Moreno has shown a major commitment to winning, but also to making his team marketable in every respect- and cutting Vlad loose isn’t a good marketing move.
Anyway, whether they keep Vlad or not I agree that they need to find a new corner OF… I guess I just don’t see them winning a bidding war with Boston or the Yanks, in terms of money or in terms of cachet, and I suspect it will take both to sign Holliday long-term.
And Oakland, in my opinion at least, has absolutely no chance in those sweepstakes if they’re up against NYY, BOS, and LAA plus perhaps surprise contenders/bidders like Tampa even.
I suppose that’s my biggest problem with the “we shouldn’t pursue Teixeira, we should wait and go after Holliday” argument- I just can’t see where the A’s have any shot at Holliday once he becomes a free agent.
One thing that your incisive assessment of the Angels OF situation for 2010 and beyond, and heck for 2009 even, does is call into question whether the A’s could sign Bay (assuming he reaches free agency because the BoSox want to pursue Holliday and don’t need/want both) if they’re competing with the Angels, amongst others, for him while the big dogs in the FA marketplace are hounding Holliday.
It also makes me seriously consider concepts like the Angels going after Manny Ramirez this offseason, or perhaps Bobby Abreu. Now if they did that, it would make them more competitive this coming season, but it would probably (hopefully) take them out of the market for a big-ticket corner OF next offseason…
So perhaps we should be hoping that Teixeira lands elsewhere (I’d still prefer the A’s) and the Angels go hard after Manny or Abreu… then there’s one less team, potentially, to compete with for Holliday or Bay next offseason.
And if the Angels DID cut Vlad loose after next season, that would just put one more “big name” out there to push Bay further down on the radar and maybe allow the A’s, in my little dream scenario that Nico first cooked up, to sneak in there and offer Bay that putative “offer he can’t refuse” early in the FA period.
by still bills kingdom on Nov 17, 2008 10:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't figure out how you're getting that the A's have a chance at Teixeira and no chance at Holliday
It makes no sense to me. Teixeira is coveted by many more teams than the “usual suspects”— Baltimore, Washington, who knows how many others are in on him. Hell, it wouldn’t surprise me to see the Mets sign him and then move Delgado.
So if you’re convinced, for whatever reason, that the A’s have no chance at Holliday, you can forget about Teixeira as well.
I don’t get the Jason Bay hype. He’s NOT a competent corner outfielder. He was embarrassingly terrible this year with BOTH of his teams. He should be DHing, and as a DH I don’t see any distinction between him and the Burrell/Abreu/Manny group. Holliday is a significantly better player than Bay— 15 runs or so.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2008 11:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair comment.
You could well be right that they have just as much, or just as little, chance at either one of them. I suppose my thinking is that if the A’s are up against the Angels, Orioles, and Nats as the primary suitors/competition for Teixeira’s services then I like their odds better than I like the A’s odds next offseason going up against, potentially, the Yanks, BoSox, Angels, and God-knows-who-else for Holliday.
And I get that idea in my head because I still see the BoSox and Yanks as having deep-to-the-point-of-virtually-unlimited pockets financially and also offering the lure of franchise history/cachet and a chance to be on an uber-competitive team every year. If they’re after Holliday, I don’t see how the A’s can compete with them- and both of those teams will likely be aggressively after him once he reaches free agency, and I don’t think any of us expect Holliday to sign an extension with the A’s at this point (Boras client, wants to test the market, wants to pick where he plays which is his right, etc.)
Now it’s pure speculation on my part that neither the Yanks or BoSox want to make a major play for Tex this offseason. And I could see the BoSox getting involved, actually, if they want to move Youk back to 3B and if they don’t think they need to allocate significant resources elsewhere to improve their club. I don’t honestly see the Mets going after Tex, but your idea isn’t without merit- they’d have to find somebody who believes in Delgado and wants to pay that salary though. And the Mets really seem to need pitching more than anything else, followed by some middle infield help, near as I can tell… but you’re right that it’s a possibility. The Yanks are clearly after pitching, pitching, and more pitching- and I suspect they’ll see about a CF option through trade, but I think they picked up Swisher to play 1B and fill that spot for 2009 and beyond, and I also think that move will pay off for them. Point being, I don’t see them going after Tex now.
As for Bay- you’re also correct that Holliday is more valuable, but that doesn’t mean Bay isn’t valuable too. And to compare Bay to Abreu/Manny doesn’t seem fair because Bay just turned 30 and those two are both in their mid-to-late thirties now, and neither can be argued as a sound long-term investment in my view. Bay versus Burrell isn’t that far off, though I’d say Bay is a touch more solid defensively, and a little younger so likely to remain more viable in LF for more years at this point. Burrell has more raw power at the plate, though.
Anyway, you’re probably right that in the long run it’s not an “either/or” argument worth having, because the reality will end up being “neither/nor” after all.
And the Bay idea is purely speculative, and irresponsibly so (I think that more or less paraphrases Nico’s own description of it originally.)
Truth be told, I doubt they’ll pursue Tex this offseason and I doubt they’ll try to re-sign Holliday either- I think they expect Cunningham, Sweeney, and Buck to be the regular OF come 2010, and meanwhile they have a whole host of other possibilities (Murton, Davis, Patterson) that might turn a corner or can at least be there as 4th and 5th OF options.
That still leaves me wondering where the “big bat” is going to come from that I think they’ll need… time will, as always, tell…
by still bills kingdom on Nov 17, 2008 2:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the Yankees are out of the Teixeira situation at all
and I don’t think the Red Sox (and Yankees, for that matter) are necessarily “in” on Holliday, either, although it depends on how their prospects come along. If Josh Reddick hits 30 HR in the minors next season, the Sox might just go with him.
I don’t think the Sox will sign Teixeira because of Lars Anderson, so they’re definitely not factors in that situation.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2008 3:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Lets keep Manny in the NL please
I don’t want to face Manny 20 times a year.
"AN, Reducing Work Productivity since 2003", connie mack 11/06/08
by adragon on Nov 17, 2008 2:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Teixeira is less risky
We don’t know how Holliday will adjust to 100% non-Coors season. Some players seem to do just fine, others fall off a cliff. If we’re going to bet the franchise on one player this off season, Teixeira is a lot less risky, so I tend to lean that way. I like making small bets with big upside and risk, but this is a huge bet, and we had better get good return or the A’s are totally screwed.
by MrIncognito on Nov 16, 2008 3:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The ones who are actually good -- Galarraga and Walker -- do just fine
The ones who are mirages - Bichette and Casilla - don’t. Holliday is legit.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That strickthru was unexpected. I realize my mistake now.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 16, 2008 9:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand why AN 3 has all these silly shortcuts
They reek of unnecessary/counterproductive over-coding.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Nov 16, 2008 10:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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