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The future of Matt Holliday: Five options for No. 5

To sign, trade or let him walk: the five complicated options the Athletics have for No. 5.

Now that this appears final, what does the future hold for Matt Holliday? Better yet, where does his future lay beyond 2009?

I'm of the school of thought, with time in mind and having given up our finest positional prospect and sold low on Street, that for us to get our maximum value, we need to extend Holliday well into our Fremont years. Even with salary flexibility, that won't be easy.

First off, I'm reluctant to believe Boras will accept a pre-FA extension. For Holliday to get his max return, I think Boras will demand that he tests the market, even if we offered 6/125 tomorrow.

While I enjoy hearing that foremost on Holliday's demands is playing for a perennial contender, which I think we'll be by 2010. However, that doesn't mean Boras will allow his client to settle for a dollar short of his maximum on his biggest pay day, or that Holliday will allow that, for that matter.

Ignoring the idea that we could have kept Carlos and ponied up for Holliday a year from now, which I don't think is necessarily true, that leaves us with five options:
1) Extend Holliday before 2009, which may already be in the works.
2) Sign Furcal and/or Blake short term, show No. 5 we want to contend starting now, and perhaps sign him long term.
3) Trade him before 2009, which, if we know Billy Beane, may soon be in the works.
4) Trade him before the July deadline, which may sadly be the most likely.
5) Keep him through 2009, try to contend and let him walk, probably netting two first round picks.

I'm obviously in favor of option one, even if it requires us throw him 20 mil a year. If we expect to contend for a World Series, we haven't the offensive firepower to do so without breaking the bank for a Grade A bat. Without that bat on the way, the unfortunate reality is that the only way we can even sign a star is to trade for him first, let him be happy in the Bay Area knowing we'll be an annual contender and make him want to spend the prime of his career here. In the best case scenario, this is what happens.

Option two is really rolling the dice, both in the short and long term. Yes, A's fans might wish we would binge on more FA's and contend in 2009, but, for one, there's no saying it would work. Two, there's no saying this would keep Holliday in town beyond this year. Sure, while we could do this and also get draft picks at year's end, Holliday should be our top priority, not Rafael Furcal, Casey Blake, Giambi, Dunn or anyone else.

I look at options three and four as running in place and possibly improving to an extent. Sure, we could theoretically net a better return on Holliday than Carlos, Street & Smith. The odds of doing so, in my opinion, are better the sooner we flip Holliday to a team looking to contend that has ML-ready prospects to offer, as they'll get more bang for their buck the longer they have him. Still, save an Escobar-Kelly Johnson-type package, we're taking a similar gamble on whoever we get in return as we would have been taking on Carlos and Smith in the first place. From Beane's perspective, he'd obviously feel better with his new prospects, as he's apparently down on Carlos and the odds he reaches his ceiling.

Option five, taking draft picks, is even more of a gamble and would set our contention back even farther than if we kept Carlos and Smith. While they might not be the next Beltran and Glavine, they'd likely both have roles on the 2010-12 A's. With draft picks, we might be doing this all over again with Carlos & Smith v.2.0 3-5 years from now, if we're lucky. In other words, there's no saying with any confidence at all that the picks would turn out as well as Carlos and Smith have. If they did, it probably wouldn't be until at least 2012. That's too late.

Unless there's an angle I'm missing, I think option one - locking up Holliday ASAP - is our best option. If we're looking to contend 2010-12, it might be our only option.

1 recs  |  Comment 32 comments

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Playoffs Thread - Day 2, Game 2

Oct 2009 by 67MARQUEZ - 432 comments

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This trade just doesn’t add up to me unless Beane signs Holliday to an extension. If not, I can see him dumping Holliday to a contender come the trade deadline for a king’s bounty. But if we keep him for one year, win around 83 games, and let him walk, I will be very surprised.
Extension plus Furcal and/or Blake/3B then lets talk.
Oh, and for all the other beer-belly-sunburned “fans” that say the A’s have no starting pitching. Really?
Duscherer, Gallagher, Eveland, Gio Gonzalez, and Dallas Braden/Cahill/Anderson/Outman.
And for the illiterate fans in southern California who don’t understand numbers besides their payroll, the A’s had a team era .02 worse than the Angels.
Now they may say " these current players besides Duke haven’t proven shit." But that is when Beane laughs in their face with our “no namers” who perform just as well as their much-higher-priced starters. The magic is in the numbers, not the names.
And the SoCal fans are counting on Devine to break down… lol, there is a reason he was drafted in the first round. Look at his numbers then talk mother fuckers.

My religion is A'slamic.

by WhoNeedsReligionWhenYaGotBaseball on Nov 10, 2008 9:55 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

nice

edgy posts are fun

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 10, 2008 11:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

hah I like this post

"Sweeney's a white Andre Ethier."--a white, drunk Billy Beane

by Cutthemullet on Nov 12, 2008 4:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I would also like to see him extended

But I think options four and five are probably most likely.

If we’re in contention, keep him. He’ll net us two picks or we’ll sign him long term. We only lost one real prospect. We still have a steady pipeline of talent on the way. He could help us contend this year and then by 2010, we could very well be playoff ready on our own, without Holliday.

If it doesn’t work out that way, if some of the guys have sophomore slumps, if we’re not in contention by the trade deadline, we could just as easily trade him to a team like the Mets for Daniel Murphy or the Cardinals for Brett Wallace.

I’d be surprised (well not REALLY surprised) if Beane flipped him before the start of the season for one of these guys. Why not just work out a three way deal? But if it happened, I wouldn’t be too bent out of shape. Somebody like Murphy or Wallace is just what the A’s need.

Well that and a shortstop…

by NateHST on Nov 10, 2008 10:04 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Can we skip Holliday's future for a bit and just enjoy the present?

Just ’till the weekend, please.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 10, 2008 10:08 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

yessir. My almost-empty-beer-case agrees with you.

My religion is A'slamic.

by WhoNeedsReligionWhenYaGotBaseball on Nov 10, 2008 11:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My almost-empty vodka bottle says "Drink the rest of me, you f***er"

It’s pretty vulgar, actually.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 11:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It won't be once you drink it...

…until tomorrow morning.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 10, 2008 11:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Just let it fer-vent

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Nov 10, 2008 11:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

grover, the voice of reason?

Who knew?

In another words, I agree.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Nov 11, 2008 5:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Holliday will be flipped for Rollins

Why Holliday will be flipped:

The A’s really don’t need another LF.
While the A’s have a black hole at SS.
This would be too risky of a trade on the hopes that Holliday is extended.
Scott Boras
Travis Buck is healthy and needs to play.
Sweeney is set in RF
Denorfia will play center

Why Rollins:

Phillies need a LF after they let Pat "the all bat poor fielder" Burrell walk.
Phillies have a SS replacement in Jason Donald
Phillies are set to win now
Can you imagine the numbers Holliday could put up in Philadelphia?
Philadelphia could afford to extend Holliday.
The Phillies were the other team attempting to trade for Holliday.

by Hang Man on Nov 11, 2008 8:02 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Or...

The Phillies re-sign Burrell.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 11, 2008 8:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If you were Amaro...

who would you rather have in LF?

Holliday or Burrell?

by Hang Man on Nov 11, 2008 8:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Burrell & Rollins

over Holliday alone.

by Larry E on Nov 11, 2008 8:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

At what cost?

Burrell is not going to be signed for less than $15mm/yr
Rollins is set to make $7.5 in 2009
The Phillies have arbitration increases going to players such as:
Howard, Werth, Blanton, Madson, Durbin, Bruntlett, Dobbs, and Victorino!
Holliday for Rollins saves them at least $9 million
That amount just might cover the arbitration eligible players listed above.

by Hang Man on Nov 11, 2008 8:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bad math

Holliday costs $13.5 million in 2009 then becomes a FA who’ll be looking for $18-20 annual.

So dealing will save Philly in 2009, but come 2010 they’ll have to pay almost the same amount for 1 player (Holliday) as they would for two players (Burrell+Rollins).

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 11, 2008 9:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OK, using your fuzzy muppet math...

Just to sign Burrell would still cost $16-18 annually.
So trading for Holliday, and actually extending him, would only cost them about $2 million
more than Burrell.
However, they would save at least $9 million less in 2009, and then $5.5 million more in 2010, and $6.5 in 2011. They can afford to sign all of their arbitration eligible players this year and potentially in 2010 & 11.
In addition they actually utilized their minor league phenom SS who is currently blocked by Rollins.
Muppet Math, I like it.

by Hang Man on Nov 11, 2008 9:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hang Man's about to piss me off

You really want to stand next to him?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 11, 2008 10:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Probably not.

I just like Sesame Street references.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Nov 11, 2008 10:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait a second

You said $15 million annual to re-sign Burrell, now you want to bump it up to $18 million just to make your argument look better?

Sorry Hang Man, but I’m not giving you much rope to play with.

Oh, and before I tear apart your straw man arbitration argument you might want to keep in mind that Sickels and Baseball America are very doubtful that Jason Donald can stay at SS. Here’s a quote from a John Manuel shat on Sept. 30

Donald is a guy who would rank in the top 10 if anyone I talked to was sold on him as a big league starter at shortstop. But I didn’t find that scout or manager. Instead I got a lot of respect for his solid bat, good approach to the game and solid defensive ability, but no one thought of him as a first-division regular. His range is shy at short; at third base, his power’s short.

I’d link it but the content is locked to non-subscribers.

I’m going to pause for a moment and allow you to beg for mercy.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 11, 2008 10:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Check my post again.

I said Burrell is not going to be signed for LESS than $15 Million.
I then estimated a reasonable range, just as you did with Holliday.
The Muppet Math still remains the same.
As for Jason Donald, I would prefer Rollins, but if Amaro feels he is blocked by Rollins I am sure Beane could find a spot for him.

by Hang Man on Nov 11, 2008 10:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You seem to be under-informed

Burrell could indeed demand $18 million on the open market, but he’s already said he wouldn’t need top dollar to stay in Philly. He made $14 million last year, I doubt he’d accept a lower working wage so $15-16 million makes some sense.

What else…

Oh yeah, team president David Montogmery expects the payroll to increase. GM Ruben Amaro Jr. said the Phillies aren’t running on a fixed budget, that the budget gets tailored to the team needs.

Put another way, if the Phillies can’t afford to re-sign Burrell then they’re going to have a very hard time trading for Holliday and signing him to an extension.

And Donald isn’t blocked by Rollins since no one projects him as a big league SS.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 11, 2008 10:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OK, great more Muppet Math

Ok, we will use your low range number for Burrell, $15 million
and the low range number for Holliday, $18 million.
If I am Amaro I would much rather pay $3 million more for Holliday.
The end result is the savings are adjusted by one million.

Don’t be mad. I thought you liked debates. We could just switch positions. I could make the argument that the Phillies would rather have Pat the Bat. I would not buy the argument, but I could make it. Usually I don’t have the time to post, but for the moment I’m home with sick kids. Thanks for playing along.

by Hang Man on Nov 11, 2008 11:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Except that isn't your argument

You want to pay more for Holliday and not have Rollins on the team so you can afford to pay Holliday. You want to trade Holliday and leave a gaping hole at SS that the Phillies would struggle to fill internally so they’d probably have to trade someone else or buy a FA SS.

I do like to debate… when there’s an intelligent discussion to be had. Paying more for what is likely to be less production is an extremely difficult place to argue intelligently.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 11, 2008 11:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought "Holliday or Burrell?" was were we started

What I want is Rollins on the A’s. I think we both can agree that would be great!
Speaking of “information,” Philadelphia was reported as the only other club in serious running for Holliday. It seems they felt Holliday would provide better “production” than Burrell.
However, it appears the Rockies matched up better with the A’s than with Phillie. But one has to wonder what Philadelphia was offering for Holliday?

by Hang Man on Nov 11, 2008 11:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lots of clubs interested in Shane Victorino

Carlos Carrasco probably made the wish list as well.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 11, 2008 1:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

John Manuel shat, eh?

Was he conversing with fans while on the john?

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2008 10:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OK

THE PHILLIES JUST WON THE WORLD SERIES.

You don’t think that might, just possibly, have a teensy effect on how much they think they can spend?

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2008 10:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 11, 2008 9:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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