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The Matt Holliday Deal and Its Ramifications

So the A's have acquired a big bat in the Rockies Matt Holliday.  And he's right-handed.  And he's young.  The A's haven't acquired someone like this since they landed Jermaine Dye and they had Giambi and Dye powering them towards what looked like a powerhouse team for years to come.  Well because of the freak accident that broke Dye's leg in the playoffs, the Dye acquisition didn't work.

The details are still a little fuzzy, but it looks like the deal is for Greg Smith for sure and probably Carlos Gonzalez and Huston Street.  If this is the final deal, I would honestly say that both Smith and Street are pretty expendable in this current A's roster alignment.  Smith, otherwise known as "Nibbles" around AN since about June last year for his penchant for not challenging hitters, should be relatively easily replaced by someone like Brett Anderson or even Josh Outman.  Street, who seemed to find himself a bit towards the very end of the year, will be replaced by Joey Devine.  And let's face it, Beane has always considered closers expendable commodities.  Street wasn't even the A's closer by the end of the year, so who thinks that this is a big loss for the A's?  I don't.

The one big chip the A's gave up, if the rumors are true, was Carlos Gonzalez.  C-Gon didn't have a great year. He had flashes of brilliance for Oakland and you could see that he had all the tools and talent, but the A's don't prize players like that.  They want their players to have the plate discipline.  So perhaps it was a situation where Beane felt that perhaps C-Gon is going to be a star, but just probably not the right star in the right situation.

The question remains on Holliday.  Do the A's try and re-sign him long-term?  I'm betting that the answer on that one is probably no.  I'd love to see the A's do it because they'd have a long-term nagging need finally resolved in Holliday (that being a big stick from the right-side).  But I'm just not sure that Boras and the A's would be able to come to a deal.  I mean, we're talking Billy Beane and Scott Boras here.  Course they could probably charge admission to the cage match on pay-per-view if Beane did decide to at least try to negotiate.

The A's get a guy who was runner-up for MVP of the National League in 2007 (I've heard quite a few arguments that he deserved it, not Rollins, but I'll leave that for salb and grover to decide).  He is probably dreaming about dollar signs heading into the year, so you just have to know that he is going to come to camp ready to perform.  Say what you want about professional athletes, but I truly don't think anything motivates them like the promise of a big pay day.  So you're going to see a motivated guy performing in green and gold.  There was quite a bit of discussion in some of the other threads earlier about whether or not the A's would try to move Holliday at the trade deadline, and I tend to think you will see them try to move him if the A's don't seem to be contending for whatever reason (the young pitching doesn't perform as expected or, as has been the last couple of seasons, the injuries pile up early).  I mean there aren't that many hitters like Holliday that a contender can plug right into the third or fourth spot in a lineup and he fits perfectly.  So the A's did acquire a very nice trading chip if the steel cage match between Beane and Boras never comes to fruition.  The other thing is that the A's could also just let him walk at the end of the year and take two very nice draft picks as compensation.  We know Beane loves to stockpile draft picks.

In the meantime, the A's offense just got upgraded.  Holliday will be a nice shot in the arm for the A's stagnant bats.  If anything, at least you finally get a "hitter".  The A's haven't had very many of those. 

The other thing it does do, I believe, is send a clear message to A's fans that the A's are going to try to compete in 2009.  You don't acquire a guy of Holliday's caliber with one year left on his contract to wallow in the basement of the AL West.  I also think we could see the A's also sign someone like Furcal as well to try and drastically reduce the pressure on the A's young staff.  You add someone like Furcal to the A's lineup and suddenly you have a lineup that looks like this:

Furcal
Sweeney
Holliday
Cust
Chavez (if healthy)
Suzuki
Buck/Cunningham
Ellis
Barton

Now that is not going to set the world on fire, but it does certainly look like it could put it its share of runs.  Or I might even bat Cust in front of Holliday because of Cust's ability to get on base.  Maybe Cust even sees some better pitches to hit as well because of it?

I love the trade.  Gonzalez might turn into the second coming of Carlos Beltran, but the A's could not go through another 162-game season with that offense.  It just wasn't going to work.  I'm expecting more moves towards the A's being competitive in 2009 on the heels of this, whether that means Furcal or Dunn or someone else, I'm not sure, but I don't think the A's are done.  They're sending a message that they think they can be competitive sooner rather than later, otherwise, why do the deal in the first place unless you don't really think that Gonzalez is all he was supposed to be? 

For once it's nice to have our team doing the acquiring, isn't it?

 

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Forst!

"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King

by Buck Turgidson on Nov 10, 2008 2:34 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Nov 10, 2008 6:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is the War -Room, for Chrissakes!

Who let this guy in here?

"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King

by Buck Turgidson on Nov 10, 2008 6:47 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Holy Fucking Shitucky!

Matt Frickin Holliday! It’s a beautiful day in the neighborhood, folks!

My Giants friends are all cursing at me as we speak!

Go Billy Beane and Go A’s!

by mrod on Nov 10, 2008 6:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They should be thanking you

For taking him out of the division

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Nov 10, 2008 7:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For once, I'm going to think about the now

It gets exhausting as an A’s fan to always be thinking of the future. What if, what if, what if. For once I’m going to just be happy and treat Holliday as my most awesome, big ass birthday present ever!

"Don't be an ass!" --Bill King

by batgirl on Nov 10, 2008 2:37 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Happy Holliday!

..Birthday, that is

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Nov 10, 2008 5:14 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

HB, bg!

Ray: "How fun is it to be up here playing in the Big Leagues?"
Gio: "It's *SUPER* fun!!!"

by Poppy on Nov 10, 2008 5:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Happy Birthday!

Did you ask for a right-handed stick to fill out the A’s lineup when you blew out your candles?

by Blez on Nov 10, 2008 6:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Indeed!

Happy Friggin Birthday Batgirl!

by mrod on Nov 10, 2008 6:39 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Happy Birthday to you!

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 7:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gah... I don't like this at all at first blush

The 2009 A's draft pick... getting higher every game.

by rebus on Nov 10, 2008 2:40 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seems like a target of opportunity for BB

To me Street and Smith are totally expendable. Cargon is worth it for player like Holliday.

"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King

by Buck Turgidson on Nov 10, 2008 2:41 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I absolutely love it.

Smith is the definition of expendable. Unless he learns how to control his fringe stuff, he’s looking at 5 ERAs for a long time. Him in Coors could get ugly.

Street’s nice, but I think Devine is better.

Cargon is the wild card of course, he could be absolutely nothing or could turn into .320/.370/.540 or something crazy. I think he’s going to be one extreme or the other.

by Emmett89 on Nov 10, 2008 2:43 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, time to refer back to my rosterbate post the other day...

I had the A’s picking up Holliday, Swisher, Furcal, And Giambi.

I really really don’t like this signing if we don’t add Giambi +

However, I think we will be adding Giambi, at least, very soon. Our lineup is going to be siiiiiiick!!! We have been waiting around for a good lineup for like 5 years now.

Also, props to Beane for giving up 3 over-rated players and holding onto Duke, whom the Rockies were reportedly interested in. This definitely helps us in ’09.

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Nov 10, 2008 2:44 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sigh

I’ll say it again. Giambi is an older, more expense, worse hitting Jack Cust that we’d have to allow play 1B.

No thank you. Much better to sign Furcal, Blake, or anyone besides Giambi (unless Giambi does a $1M incentives-deal)

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 10, 2008 2:51 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Anyone decent will be more expensive than Cust, and most won't hit as well.

Most importantly, we’re talking about a huge upgrade from Barton.

Furcal/Giambi/Holliday = playoffs

The 2009 A's draft pick... getting higher every game.

by rebus on Nov 10, 2008 2:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not so convinced

Not many 38-40 year olds still hit >30 HR. The cliff is coming for Giambi, the only question is whether he’s already fallen off of it.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 10, 2008 2:57 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Really?...

After Giambi all we need is John Jaha and we have the good ‘ol Homerin’ A’s.

They forgot that whole mantra about defense tho…

The Stockton Ports pitching staff is better than the Orioles.

by gdub171 on Nov 10, 2008 4:14 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

what about genronimo berroa?

"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse

by kbtoyz on Nov 10, 2008 4:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And Saenz off the bench

"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL

by oblique on Nov 10, 2008 4:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

People who think Cust is an irrefutably better offensive player than Giambi...

= Lay off the Kool-Aid Bro.

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Nov 10, 2008 7:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who said "irrefutably". Just most probably.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 8:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How about this:

By any rational system of measurement, Cust has been an irrefutably better hitter than Giambi for the last two years.

by MrIncognito on Nov 10, 2008 8:28 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Strickouts1!!111!!!! are rational

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 10, 2008 8:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Snap!

Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.

by Joey C. on Nov 10, 2008 9:17 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Blake is useless

Average bat, waaaaay below average glove. The A’s could do a whole lot better than him, unless they want a place-holder for a year or so.

by jsullivan on Nov 10, 2008 5:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

i don’t understand all the casey blake love around here. it’s not like he’s 28

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 10, 2008 6:51 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes but neither are we anymore

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 7:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

fair enough

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 10, 2008 7:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A whole lot better? Whom?

The point in getting a guy like Blake is precisely because he would be a placeholder, and shouldn’t cost much, thus allowing the acquisition of other people like Furcal.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 10, 2008 10:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have mixed feelings about this trade. I like it for next year, and losing Street and Smith

doesn’t bother me that much. CarGon doesn’t bother that much either because you have to give up someone like him to get Holliday. however, I’m not a big fan of one year rentals especially when Scott Boras is involved.

by Erin6 on Nov 10, 2008 2:44 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ok is it just me or are you guys

expecting either a few more moving parts either way or at least one more body on either side?

3 for 1 deals just don’t seem like BB style. I would figure that it would be more likely of a 4-2 deal with Oak including one more closer to the MLB ready average type and Clo including a far off high risk high reward type.

Just something that BB can throw in as a potential high return bonus on this whole thing

by laxtonto on Nov 10, 2008 2:44 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

BBeane's style

If you acquire a penchant for a certain style, it’s time to change styles…IMO.

Officially awaiting the 2009 season.

by One won lost won on Nov 10, 2008 2:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it just seems like this deal

doesn’t seem right…

I don’t know, I haven’t really put my finger on it, but it seems off…

by laxtonto on Nov 10, 2008 2:48 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

perhaps more will unfold

it was written that Colorado will flip Street, and perhaps something coming the A’s way as part of that.

Officially awaiting the 2009 season.

by One won lost won on Nov 10, 2008 2:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

so colorado trades street eventually, and just decides to send the a’s something as part of it? i’ll bet against that happening.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Nov 10, 2008 10:48 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm approbative!

I just hope Holiday likes the West Coast and sparse crowds.

Officially awaiting the 2009 season.

by One won lost won on Nov 10, 2008 2:45 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think he was used to it until the Rockies huge run end of last year.

by drmmerchk on Nov 11, 2008 11:02 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

CarGon has all kinds of potential

but this deal signals that Beane thinks the A’s can contend in 2009. I think it also signals that he’s far from done this offseason, since Holliday alone doesn’t say “contender” in my opinion.

by OaklandSi on Nov 10, 2008 2:45 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah

and Holliday doesn’t make much sense acquiring him and doing nothing else. That’s why you have to assume that the A’s sign a free agent bat or two.

by Blez on Nov 10, 2008 2:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

i’m really feeling a giambi signing. my neighbor who works in the clubhouse insists giambi is on the way, word is that giambi and beane have been on the phone together all week.

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 10, 2008 6:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know Beane shot down the Alejo-Giambi connection, but..

A’s sign Gallego, trade for Matt Holliday.
A’s sign Alejo…

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Nov 10, 2008 6:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, Giambi's coming

It’ll make it easy for me to rationalize my ambivalence about success… because I f***ing hate Giambi as a person. Worst douchebag in baseball, bar none.

God, I wish Daric Barton had actually been competent this year.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 8:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How dare you

..forget Selig in a discussion of baseball douchebaggery

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Nov 10, 2008 8:22 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ya Jason's got some serious competition for that title.

I’d put any anti-competitive owner near the top of the list — Pohlad, Loria, McClatchey. Then you have Elijah Dukes and Barry Bonds, who may or may not actually be in baseball.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 8:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What did Ozzie Guillen ever do to you?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 8:51 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

K-Rod doesn't belong on this list

Aside from playing for a rival team and celebrating more visibly than you care to watch when your team just lost, what has Rodriguez ever done to warrant the label of “douchebag”?

You may not like him, but he’s not even close to these other guys we’re discussing.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Nov 11, 2008 1:23 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You just said it

Those celebrations alone make him a douchebag.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Nov 11, 2008 3:47 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Enh, I don't buy it.

Clemens, Canseco, Giambi etc are douchebags as human beings regardless of what team they play for. K-Rod is a douche only because he played for the Angels. Big big difference.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Nov 11, 2008 1:42 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

BS

K-Rod will still be a douchebag even when he’s doing his celebrations for some other team next year.

by methodrampage on Nov 11, 2008 2:48 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

why is Giambi a douchebag?

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on Nov 11, 2008 3:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

He’s always seemed like a nice guy to fans and media. If you think he’s a douchebag because of the whole steroids issue and leaving the A’s then I can understand that.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Nov 12, 2008 2:11 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dukes and Bonds are just criminals

Dukes is clinically psychopathic— he can’t help himself (although that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be locked up). Bonds is just selfish, nothing inherently wrong with that.

I have to admit I wasn’t including owners. Loria is a Grade A douchebag.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 8:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What makes you think Loria is anti-competitive?

I mean, his 2 world series rings surely don’t.

by mikev on Nov 10, 2008 8:35 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Expos experience

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 8:52 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Plus he's not marketed the Marlins any better than Crowley's marketed

the A’s. It’s all about “hold up the local population for a new stadium” in my monopoly region. It’s guys like him that got Selig elected commissioner in the first place. The Twins have been pretty good on the field too, but not because Pohlad’s been a strong revenues minded owner.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 8:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Giambi announcement within a week...

probably less. Daric can learn from one of the masters (how to juice and not get caught).

Clowns to the left of me... Jokers to the right...

by FoolshGame22 on Nov 10, 2008 9:22 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

giambi at least semi-apologized for something, how does that make him a worse douchebag than bonds and clemens?

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Nov 10, 2008 10:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's where I stand

Though he totally screwed the A’s over. I’m quick to forgive, though

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Nov 10, 2008 10:52 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

His "apology" was far worse than Bonds' denial

in that he sought to obtain the beneficial consequences of confession without leaving himself open to the liabilities of admission.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 11:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Come on Paul,

As a future attorney surely you know that Giambi would have been out of his freaking mind to confess to anything. Especially after he’s been deposed by a Federal grand jury. Would you, as an attorney, ever advise a client to “confess and apologize” on national TV?

The dude screwed up…..no doubt about it. But I don’t expect him to put his head in a noose while simultaneously pulling the trip lever. He’s paid in full for his transgressions as far as I’m concerned. If the dude can produce, show him the dotted line.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 11, 2008 2:26 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If I knew people would be suckered in by that ridiculous travesty,

I’d have advised him to do exactly what he did. It appears to have worked. I don’t know HOW it worked, but it did.

I’m not annoyed at him for his pseudo-confession (although I am annoyed that he’s a jackass), I’m annoyed at the general public for paying any attention to it.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2008 10:58 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can tell you why it "worked".

He was sincere, or at least appeared sincere. Coupled with the fact that by all general accounts, he’s a likable enough guy, he gave the people enough of what they wanted to hear to assuage their sense of morality. Most folks realize that he didn’t even have to do what he did, limited in scope though it was.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 11, 2008 3:49 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Plausible denial is Beane's M.O.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Nov 10, 2008 8:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What does this mean? Who is he denying to, and what is he denying?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 8:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It means...

…that Beane denies pretty much everything as part of his standard operating procedure, whether it’s true or not.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Nov 10, 2008 10:32 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that’s not true

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Nov 10, 2008 10:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's been discussed by national media

so, to the extent that any of these rumors are ever credible, those ones are.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 2:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am super excited about Holliday

Seriously! Very, Very Happy!

But… I am very sad to lose Smith. I really like him and love watching him pitch. Plus he is the one player my BF doesn’t have a problem with me drooling over because he looks just like him! I feel like we didn’t get enough time with Greggy. It would have been nice to have him around for another year, see what he could really do. I will miss him.

"He's day-to-day," Geren said. "But aren't we all?" - 5/29/08

by BobbyCrosbysGirl on Nov 10, 2008 2:47 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

enough time with Greggy

that’s what I was feeling in May (the second coming of Tom Glavine) but by September, the second coming of Ariel Prieto…

Officially awaiting the 2009 season.

by One won lost won on Nov 10, 2008 2:52 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're probably going to have to change your username soon as well.

Who’s betting Crosby is getting shipped out for a bag of balls.

This.

by Blicks on Nov 10, 2008 2:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll take him for a bag of balls.

I can turn him into my pet.

Good Crosby… good Crobsy. No, don’t swing at that slider.

by VORP is too nerdy on Nov 10, 2008 2:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Keep in mind you'd have to pay his salary too...

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 10, 2008 2:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

What's the point of getting rid of him now?

If you have to pay his salary, might as well keep him. He’s not good, but he’s got speed and he can defend. He wouldn’t be the worst utility infielder in the world if they sign a better SS.

by jsullivan on Nov 10, 2008 5:03 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's worth more to a team with a replacement level SS (read St. Louis)

than he is to Oakland as a bench player. Pennington is a much better bench player because he’s an outstanding basestealer.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 8:15 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not convinced Crosby is better than Izturis

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 8:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nor am I

In 2008, he sucked offensively AND defensively.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 10, 2008 10:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Smith was one of my favorites, too.

But his awesome pick-off move is probably even more valuable in the NL than in the AL. Also, someone said he’s a decent hitter (well, decent for a pitcher).

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Nov 10, 2008 4:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Definitely the best A's hitting pitcher now that Harden is gone, lol

Duke was just embarrassing at the plate last season.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 8:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're forgetting The Cupcake Slugger

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 8:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But he didn't get his chance until he left Oakland

God, who’s the best A’s hitting pitcher at this point— Eveland?

Unrelated, but the 49ers really, really suck. Not a good idea to throw interceptions in your own end when you have a 1-point lead.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 8:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

unfortunately, they don't suck as bad as the Raiders...

that was my one saving grace for this season. The Whiners would be worse… but, they’re not.

Clowns to the left of me... Jokers to the right...

by FoolshGame22 on Nov 10, 2008 9:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cust is a very valuable player, btw.

He’s a major bang for the buck. He makes most of his outs via strickouts, but he still gets on base at a great clip.

This.

by Blicks on Nov 10, 2008 2:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly

And having him in front of Holliday could ensure that our best hitter has someone who will get on base hitting in front of him consistently.

by Blez on Nov 10, 2008 2:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like Cust as the #2 hitter personally

Especially if by some miracle Chavez returns to form

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 10, 2008 3:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cust, what an asshole

"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."

-Charles Manson

by kaweahkaweah on Nov 10, 2008 3:02 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah.

How dare that selfish bastard take walks instead of purposefully fouling off pitches so he can get more hits like Ichiro.

by VORP is too nerdy on Nov 10, 2008 3:03 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

rofl

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 10, 2008 6:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lolling

"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King

by Buck Turgidson on Nov 10, 2008 4:19 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Best hitters should be 1-2-4, in descending order of OBP

Holliday probably should hit #2.

In case you’re wondering, BTW, my experience with video game baseball confirms that this is, in fact, the best batting order…

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 3:04 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm so relieved.

I was wondering how video game baseball analysis tied into that.

by VORP is too nerdy on Nov 10, 2008 3:05 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ah but which video baseball games?

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 10, 2008 3:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

MVP Baseball 2005

Best baseball game ever. Ever. No contest.

But I’ve never played MLB The Show, so.

by VORP is too nerdy on Nov 10, 2008 3:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm right there with you. Ever.

I was asking PT which game he’s using as support.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 10, 2008 3:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes Sir!!

I was so pissed when they stopped making the game

by Spidz34 on Nov 10, 2008 3:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Show is really good

but it’s no MVP. Even though it’s several years old, it still beats the show on any of the next-gen systems. Amazing stuff.

by jsullivan on Nov 10, 2008 5:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah

Both The Show and MLB 2K7 made some nice cosmetic changes here and there, but neither matches the overall fun of playing MVP.

Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.

by Joey C. on Nov 10, 2008 5:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You folks apparently haven't found the joys of playing

RBI Baseball

The game where ALL the players look like Cust, even the black ones!

"I have more questions after these."-WaddellCanseco

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 10, 2008 6:45 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like Major League Baseball more than RBI

Neither can hold a candle to Little League Baseball or Baseball Stars

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Nov 10, 2008 6:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bases Loaded.

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Nov 10, 2008 7:05 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll always remember the umps: Yuk, Dum, Boo, Bum

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Nov 10, 2008 7:49 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Love it

To this day, I sing that tune whenever I see a relief pitcher come into a game

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Nov 10, 2008 7:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ken Griffey, Jr. Baseball

The first one, not the sequel. Terry Steinbach 4EVR!

Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.

by Joey C. on Nov 10, 2008 7:47 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

That was totally my childhood. Abusing baserunning and scoring on every play.

by rightbackin on Nov 10, 2008 7:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Base Wars

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Nov 10, 2008 10:41 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I enjoy this game, and still occasionally play it

But there’s a few strange bugs in there that just annoy me.

Over the course of a 162 game season, I’d estimate getting 5-10 guys picked off THIRD with the medium lead. And there’s the weird thing where teams frequently leave starters in until they get hurt (meaning they’re at 0% for a LONG time, then their arm falls off).

by thejd44 on Nov 10, 2008 11:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's not a bug...

It’s a team managed by Dusty Baker.

"Some of the men didn't wait for the women and children to jump off the sinking ship that is our season." - 67MARQUEZ

by notsellingjeans on Nov 11, 2008 1:14 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm specifically thinking of MVP NCAA 2007

I played as Oklahoma State, and had Corey Brown’s alter ego hitting second…

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 3:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

COREY BROWN!!!!!!!

As in with the Stockton Ports last season Corey Brown??

"I believe in spiritual rebirth, and I can't wait to experience that." --Barry Zito

by GreenNGoldGirl on Nov 10, 2008 3:18 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes

He’s ridiculously good in that game. He was something like 1100 OPS, 30 steals, 25 HR for me in that season.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 3:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

...and how many strikeouts?

I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.

by franks a lot on Nov 10, 2008 3:47 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A lot... but keep in mind that a typical 9-inning video game for me involves 9 or 10 strikeouts...

I don’t have the greatest joystick discipline.

[I know what you’re thinking. Don’t even go there.]

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 3:52 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i was thinking you

probably wouldnt be a good fighter pilot

Save Rajai Davis

by oakinboston on Nov 10, 2008 3:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure he asked you not to go there.

"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL

by oblique on Nov 10, 2008 4:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If you don't have good joystick discipline

You better have her close her eyes.

Is that where we shouldn’t go?

Am I going to get banned for this post?

by thejd44 on Nov 10, 2008 11:52 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Last I checked, "go" = urinate and "come" = ejaculate. You're safe.

"A’s baseball….It’s almost better than a stick in the eye." ~ alox

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Nov 10, 2008 11:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I love your work

Especially the remix to “Ignition.”

Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.

by Joey C. on Nov 11, 2008 9:25 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Never really like MVP '07

Couldn’t get into the whole joystick swing concept.

by jsullivan on Nov 10, 2008 5:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

best 2nd and 4th, favoring OBP 2nd and SLG 4th

No reason to waste SLG in the first spot.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 10, 2008 3:20 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey, its BtB guys!

If we sign Furcal, he’s a lock at #1.

Holliday, I assume, is a lock at #3.

So the question is do you put Cust at #4 for the HR or #2 for the OBP? I always liked him as a 2 hitter, but we really don’t have a #4 this way, and Sweeney is every bit the stereotypical high average no SLG #2.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 10, 2008 3:22 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The point is that you do NOT want your best hitter hitting #3

Not, not, not.

Why? Because he has a ton of innings where he’s batting with 2 outs and no one on base.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 3:28 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Really?

It would seem that the extra ABs of batting 3 instead of 4 make up for the 36% (or so) of first innings where your #3 comes up with the bases empty.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 10, 2008 3:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's from The Book.

Again, not all that much of a difference, but that’s the result you get when you nitpick all the details.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 10, 2008 4:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Interesting

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 10, 2008 4:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In addition to that

If the best hitter has to come up with nobody on base, you’d rather have nobody out (beginning of 2nd) than with 2 outs.

by thejd44 on Nov 10, 2008 11:49 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i find that untrue

because if theres anyone you want batting in front of you its your one and two hitters, presumably two of the best guys on your team at getting on base. They don’t call them table setters for nothin’.

by diehardoaklandfan22 on Nov 10, 2008 6:36 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You want Holliday hitting 4th

with Cust hitting 3rd. We have a .400 OBP (almost) guy that we can hit ahead of our run-producer. Sounds good to me.

"A’s baseball….It’s almost better than a stick in the eye." ~ alox

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Nov 10, 2008 6:02 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no

because they get less at bats than if they were hitting 2nd and 3rd.

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 10, 2008 6:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That is only true if the #3 hitter makes the last out of the game.

How many last outs of the game do you think the #3 hitter will make, especially when it’s a guy that gets on base 40% of the time? I’d say MAYBE 20 times. Out of those 20, how many of them are in games that actually matter, rather than just being at the end of the 9th in a 8-2 win or a 7-1 loss? Probably not a meaningful number. That batting order stuff is a load of crap. You bat Holliday behind Cust because the probability that Cust is on base and Holliday drives him in is a HELL of a lot higher than the probability that Holliday gets on and Cust drives him in.

"A’s baseball….It’s almost better than a stick in the eye." ~ alox

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Nov 10, 2008 10:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

all the strickouts!!!!!11

naw i understand what you’re saying. the difference may indeed not be a huge number, but it’s still a fact.

that said, i put sweeney 2nd, holliday 3rd, giambi 4th, cust 5th. ;)

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 11, 2008 12:56 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You'd be surprised.

There’s about an 18 PA gap between each spot in the batting order. Even .400 OBPs make outs 60% of the time.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 11, 2008 6:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Awesome

Now I rest easy, knowing why I got bumped down from 3rd to 4th on my JV team.

by methodrampage on Nov 10, 2008 3:39 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

People laugh at the video game thing

But I go with the 1, 2, 4 thing. My 4th best hitter is usually my #3 hitter in all my Out of the Park games, and I frequently score more runs than I should “on paper.” And OOTP is a sim, so it’s not like I have much control over the guys doing well.

The best hitter, overall, should be your #2 guy if possible (according to The Book, anyway). If I recall correctly, you want the overall best guy #2, the best OBP guy (assuming he doesn’t have a ton of power) #1, and #4 should probably be the “classic #4 hitter” type. The whole “best hitter batting third” thing is a weird wrong thing to do.

Of course this is all worth probably not even one full win over the course of a season, so it’s a fairly moot point. But still, may as well do the optimal thing.

by thejd44 on Nov 10, 2008 11:48 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hate TTO players in the middle of the lineup

I’m sure someone could prove me wrong statistically, but I hate having Three-True-Outcome (walk, strikeout, homer) batters like Cust (and Durazo before him) hitting in the middle of the lineup. These types of players are essentially unable to adjust their approach to the situation, and it drives me nuts. With RISP and the bases not loaded, the walks are less valuable than the average plate appearance, the strikeouts more costly, and I never feel like the occasional random home run makes up for all the lost opportunities to get a run home by simply making contact.

I prefer to see players like Cust hitting 6th or 7th or 8th, where you don’t expect as much, and a positive result feels more like a bonus. Yeah, that’s probably an emotional argument, not a logical one. And yeah, perhaps Cust is the best #3 hitter in this new lineup. But to me, if a TTO batter is the optimal batter for the middle of your lineup, then your lineup still isn’t constructed very well.

by kenarneson on Nov 10, 2008 5:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey it's Ken Arneson!

You still feel this way after a year of the RBI Machine?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 7:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, I do.

I like Cust. I appreciate what he can and cannot do. I just want a team where there are better options for the #3, #4, and #5 hitters than a guy like him.

Kinda how I felt about Buddy Groom in the late ‘90s. He was a useful reliever, but if you’re a winning team, he’s at the back of your bullpen, not the front. When he’s getting more high-leverage innings than anyone else, it’s a symptom of your team’s overall weakness.

by kenarneson on Nov 10, 2008 9:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dude, it's Ken Arneson

He could light his credibility on fire and toss it down a 500-foot mine and still be worth listening to…

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 9:14 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oddly enough

I am posting this from the bottom of a 500-foot mine. I fell down here in an incredible explosion.

by kenarneson on Nov 10, 2008 9:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK, so, your margin for error is gone

Watch yourself, pal.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 9:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There's a whole in my heart, as deep as a mine

We’re sending out love down the mine

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Nov 10, 2008 9:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There's a hole in this mountain, it's dark and it's deep

and God only knows all the secrets it keeps

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 9:35 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I always liked them at the top of the order

Cust is always on base, and at the end of the day, that’s the most important thing. Bat him 2nd. He isn’t that slow.

by MrIncognito on Nov 10, 2008 8:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Believe it or not, Cust adjusts his approach to the situation.

His BA is higher and his walk rate lower when he has RBI opportunities on the pond. Ie runners at 2nd or 3rd with no outs, or 3rd with 1 out.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2008 8:21 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that may or may not be true, but no one will believe it.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Nov 10, 2008 11:03 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

the lesson is, never try.

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 11, 2008 12:58 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's a coward, that's what he is.

A strickout-loving coward boy. A prancing Nancy OBP walkathon coward face.

"Some of the men didn't wait for the women and children to jump off the sinking ship that is our season." - 67MARQUEZ

by notsellingjeans on Nov 11, 2008 1:18 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Valuable for a losing team maybe

You don’t win anything with a 230 #4 hitter who strikes out at a record pace

The man’s a defensive liability who takes way too many close pitches. If they A’s really are going to try and make a run they better not be counting on Cust to be the cleanup hitter.

by sactownbull on Nov 10, 2008 3:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Please attempt to understand baseball a little.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 10, 2008 3:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

+1

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 10, 2008 7:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We have people in here talking about hitting Cust 2nd

and you’re telling me I need to understand baseball? a 230 hitter who strikes out close to 200 time a year in the #2 hole?

Just when I think this place can’t get any more ridiculous.

by sactownbull on Nov 10, 2008 8:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no, he'd be a #2 hitter getting on base about 38% of the time

forget about batting average

"This is Rickey, calling on behalf of Rickey."

by scatterbrian on Nov 10, 2008 8:15 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2nd is exactly where I'd bat Cust

Furcal or Sweeney or Buck
Cust
Holliday
Chavez
Suzuki

and go from there. People getting on base followed by people who drive in runs. Yay!!!!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 10, 2008 8:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd go for

Furcal
Buck
Cust
Holliday
Sweeney
Chavez
Suzuki
Ellis
The SS

Get our best RBI guys, Holliday and Sweeney, right behind Cust.

"A’s baseball….It’s almost better than a stick in the eye." ~ alox

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Nov 10, 2008 10:18 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is Furcal playing outfield?

I assume you mean the other OF

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Nov 10, 2008 10:37 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah yeah whatever

I’m not used to making lineups with actual hitters in them.

"A’s baseball….It’s almost better than a stick in the eye." ~ alox

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Nov 10, 2008 10:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually the one I forgot was Barton.

Good thing I left that nine spot open…

In all seriousness, I really hope he rediscovers his stroke, because a 1-4 of Furcal/Barton/Cust/Holliday could be potentially very good.

"A’s baseball….It’s almost better than a stick in the eye." ~ alox

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Nov 10, 2008 10:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In all honesty, we really can't expect much worse

from Barton, right? He has to be better than last year, I would hope.

witty remark

by dtownmbrown on Nov 10, 2008 11:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

.279/.419/.500/.919 in September

He still is a talented hitter, and he’s still young. I expect him to turn it around.

"A’s baseball….It’s almost better than a stick in the eye." ~ alox

by Gallagher's Watermelons on Nov 10, 2008 11:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do people on here even understand the value of productive outs?

Cust hitting two means far less balls in play as well as clogging the bases up for people that run well (like Holliday) A #2 hitter has a job to do that goes beyond walks and OBP. I swear half the people on here have been brainwashed by Beane.

by sactownbull on Nov 10, 2008 8:22 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Personally, I find walks more productive than outs

but that’s just me.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 10, 2008 8:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Last year, batting in the middle of the lineup, Jack Cust had 12 ABs with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs. He picked up 10 RBIs in those 12 ABs, so would you please stop talking until you become more informed about baseball? Thanks.

You are a very ignorant baseball fan.

by MrIncognito on Nov 10, 2008 8:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So this is what's become of my swingin' A's fan base?

It’s now a bill beane cult?

This baseball by the numbers bull can only go so far. At some point you have to use so good old fashioned baseball sense.

Cust is in no way a #2 hitter or even a #4 hitter for a winning team. If you can hide him at 7 or 8 then fine. But we have to get off this sabermetrics obsession.

by sactownbull on Nov 10, 2008 8:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When did they win a championship while valuing outs

over walks?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 8:40 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's not valuing walks over outs

It’s put outs vs strike outs

It’s having different parts to your lineup and having players that know their roles. you don’t need or want 9 players that all do the same thing offensively.

by sactownbull on Nov 10, 2008 8:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If you value someone with a worse OBP than Cust

with fewer K’s you’re valuing Outs over Walks

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 8:44 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You can't make a blanket statement like that

If I have a player who’s OBP is 20-40 points lower than Cust but strikes out half as much I would argue he’s more valuable as a #2 hitter. And that’s what really kicked this whole thing off… people talking about Cust hitting 2.

by sactownbull on Nov 10, 2008 8:49 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sure you can argue that, but you'd be

valuing outs over walks.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 8:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

*throws up hands and leaves post*

it’s not worth arguing over

but I doubt you’ll see Cust hitting second ….. and us winning any way

peace

by sactownbull on Nov 10, 2008 8:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you wan to "hide" cust at 7 or 8

in what magical fantasy land do the a’s have all these hitters with a .360 OBP, who strike out half as much as cust?
or is it that you prefer some imaginary guy hitting ahead of cust?

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Nov 10, 2008 11:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Perhaps you are talking about Sandy Alderson?

Because he was into numbers too. Hate to tell you.

Go look at the walk totals for the 88-90 A’s.

by MrIncognito on Nov 10, 2008 8:41 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not against walks or OBP at all

but it isn’t the answer for everything. especially when players have other major short comings

by sactownbull on Nov 10, 2008 8:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cust?

33 HRs last year. Silly.

by MrIncognito on Nov 10, 2008 8:53 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They'd have rolled that far eventually

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2008 8:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry, I fall prey to my own hyperbole sometimes

only 32 of them went 500 feet.

The 33rd went 600.

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Nov 10, 2008 9:03 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hear you

Regarding your Cust at #2, you have to expand on your point more precisely or people on AN will jump all over you like you are an Angels fan.

If I’m not mistaken, I think what you were trying to say is that having 9 players that have the same strengths and weaknesses as hitters is worse than having hitters with a diverse range of strengths and weaknesses. And I think everyone agrees with that.

The question is, how much team OBP is that worth. I see it as a question of OBP at what cost of versatility rather than Walks versus Outs.

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Nov 10, 2008 9:33 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd much rather have 9 TTO players than 8 TTO players and an Eckstein clone

Diversity for the sake of diversity is bad. Homogeneity, on the other hand, is impossible anyway so I think this tangent is meaningless.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 10, 2008 10:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, what are we talking about here

we shouldn’t have cust because we already have cust-like hitters at every other position?

who are all these guys and why are they not hitting 30 home runs and walking 100 times a year?

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Nov 10, 2008 11:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Back in the small ball days of productive outs

When Canseco bunted McGwire to scoring position

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Nov 10, 2008 8:41 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

With the two Hendersons and the top of the lineup

and Carney Lansford before the power

They knew how to put a winning lineup together

by sactownbull on Nov 10, 2008 8:44 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You were right the 1st time

Lansford never hit behind the power. As much as I liked Carney, he wasn’t a good choice to hit #2.

by MrIncognito on Nov 10, 2008 9:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lansford hit 5-7 most of the time

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=198707120OAK

He saw more of the two hole from 89 on.

And he was a good choice for a #2 hitter. You want someone there that can put the ball in play and doesn’t strike out a lot. Lansford fit that bill.

by sactownbull on Nov 11, 2008 10:06 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You have serious issues with data

Finding a single box score from 1987 in which lansford hit 5th is seriously not convincing. First off, they were an 81-81 team that year. Secondly, even in 1987 Lansford hit 3rd more often than he hit in any other spot in the lineup.

Moving on to the WS winning team, here’s every A’s batting order from every game in 1989:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/1989_bo.shtml

Lansford hit 2nd more frequently than any other player, and hit 2nd in the majority of his games.

In the other playoff years, it was similar. In 1988, Lansford hit leadoff most frequently, in 1990 he hit 2nd almost exclusively.

You’re busy bragging up your 35 years of baseball experience in the other thread. It would be helpful if you either accurately remembered those 35 years or double checked the data to see if it fit with your perceptions.

by MrIncognito on Nov 11, 2008 12:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

*sigh*

Rickey is one of the greatest players of all time. So, yeah, obviously having Rickey on the team would be great.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 10, 2008 10:33 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

bring back rickey!!

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Nov 10, 2008 11:14 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Rickey Henderson would've been the best leadoff hitter ever

Even if he never attempted one steal. His stolen bases obviously helped and made him a better player, but they’re not the REASON he was a great leadoff hitter.

He was a great leadoff hitter because he got on base 40% of the time.

by thejd44 on Nov 10, 2008 11:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

good post

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Nov 11, 2008 1:01 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

QOTM

The 2009 A's draft pick... getting higher every game.

by rebus on Nov 11, 2008 1:06 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, why discuss rational concerns when we can have Truthiness?

You argue about productive outs, and then when facted with the fact that Cust made very productive outs, you revert to your need for every hitter to appeal to your sense of the Way Things Ought To Be.

by MrIncognito on Nov 10, 2008 8:33 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let's go get Nick Swisher back too

You can’t have enough 240 hitters with high OBP

And some point you have to have someone that drives in runners and moves people with some consistency. There’s a reason the A’s have come up short in the playoffs during the Beane era.

by sactownbull on Nov 10, 2008 8:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Playoff record, by year:

2006: 3-4
2003: 2-3
2002: 2-3
2001: 2-3
2000: 2-3

That’s bad luck, period.

by MrIncognito on Nov 10, 2008 8:48 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also, Jeremy Giambi and Miguel Tejada forgetting how to run the bases has nothing to do with walking, nor does Jermaine Dye snapping his leg in half.

by MrIncognito on Nov 10, 2008 8:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

QOTM

99 MPH with as much control as a deflating balloon - CurveballKing on H-Rod

by Scottbass on Nov 11, 2008 1:04 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually Tejada was walking

which was the problem.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Nov 11, 2008 4:01 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who lead the team in RBI last year?

I’ll give you a hint. It was Jack Cust.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 10, 2008 10:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

33 home runs and only 77 RBI

Take a look at the RBI of other players who hit 33

Grady Sizemore 90
David Wright 124
Chase Utley 104
Mark Teixeira 120
Pat Burrell 86
Hanley Ramirez 67
Jim Thome 89

Cust scored 77 runs as well. Now let’s look at runs scored by other players with a 375 OBP

Ryan Ludwick 104
Carlos Beltran 115
Justin Morneau 97
Ian Kinsler 102
Johnny Damon 95
Dustin Pedroia 118
Jason Bay 111

Now of course you’re going to score more runs if you’re on a team with better hitters …… but even Randy Winn scored more runs (86) than Cust, despite have an OBP a few points lower at 363. Randy Winn who played for the power house known as the 2008 SF Giants.

Bottom line is the game is about scoring and driving in runs. OBP is important but it can’t be used as an all in one defense.

by sactownbull on Nov 11, 2008 10:33 AM PST