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Monday Morning Minors Musings: Top-20 Lists Edition

Both grover and Taj will be posting their Top-20 prospect lists later on in this posting, however there are a few news tidbits regarding the A's minor league system that should be addressed first:

- In a move that surprised no one, the A's announced that Trevor Cahill was tabbed organizational Pitcher of the Year and Chris Carter was named organization Player of the Year last week. Not that it was particularly prescient, but that's who we tabbed here on AN last week before the official announcement was made.

- Player of the year Chris Carter, along with Stockton teammates Corey Brown and Sam Demel, have already opened their Winter Ball seasons out in the Hawaiian Winter Baseball league.  The trio is suiting up for the North Shore Honu and all three have kind of struggled to get going early on. Carter is only hitting .182 with extra base hit in his first 7 games, however his OBP is at .357 thanks to 6 walks in 22 at-bats. Brown's done a little more hitting as Carter as he has 2 doubles and 5 hits total in 23 at-bats with 4 walks and 6 strikeouts. Demel has really struggles in his first few games, giving up 6 runs in only 4.2 IP for an ugly 11.57 ERA. He does have 4 K's in those 4 innings though and it's still really early!

- The Arizona Fall League (the biggest prospect showcase of them all) begins tomorrow and several A's top prospects will take the field for the Phoenix Desert Dogs. Right-handed relievers Andrew Bailey, Andrew Carignan, Jared Lansford and Jeff Gray will toe the hill for the Dogs (Josh Outman was originally scheduled to participate in the league, but since he threw so many innings for the big league club late in the season, he was scratched and Gray took his place). Adrian Cardenas and Josh Donaldson (listed as a 1st baseman) will get some infield work on the team while Sean Doolittle will likely get more time in the outfield.

- If you haven't checked it out yet, head over to Baseball America and check out their league-by-league top-20 lists. There are a ton of A's on most of them! I think the Pacific Coast League is profiled today...

Star-divide

Now, without further ado, let's get to our lists:

Taj's Top-20 List (omitting Gio as he spent 8 weeks in the big leagues):

1. RHP Trevor Cahill

2. LHP Brett Anderson

3. RHP Vince Mazzaro

4. OF Aaron Cunningham

5. RHP James Simmons

6. 1B/3B/DH Chris Carter

7. 2B Adrian Cardenas

8. 1B/OF Sean Doolittle

9. C Josh Donaldson

10. CF Corey Brown

11. RHP Craig Italiano

12. RHP Henry Rodriguez

13. OF Matt Sulentic

14. RHP Brett Hunter

15. OF Rashun Dixon

16. RHP Arnold Leon

17. LHP Josh Outman

18. 2B Jemile Weeks

19. RHP Andrew Carignan

20. RHP Sam Demel

 

My top-20 list is pitching heavy, because, lo and behold, that's the part of the system that Beane has most actively bolstered with all of his efforts this past calender year. Cahill and Anderson are obvious 1 and 2's. Cahill's got ace-potential and Anderson's ceiling is just a little lower, although he's more polished. I bumped Mazzaro up to 3 mainly due to his incredible year at Double-A. He pitched better for a longer period of time than fellow Midlander James Simmons and after struggling initially at Triple-A, settled down and threw well in the pressure packed PCL playoffs. He projects as a solid, innings-eating, mid-rotation starter at this point, with a power sinker.  He's ahead of Simmons because he completely dominated the Texas League at the same age and made it to AAA before him (although, all that might have ended up differently if Simmons' sleep apnea was addressed earlier in the season). He's ahead of the top position players because even a #3 or #4 starter in the big leagues that can stay healthy (Mazzaro is a horse) is enormously valuable.

At this point, i still consider Cunningham a prospect, since he got called up just before September call-ups and because I think he may need another month or two in AAA before coming up to Oakland for good. I love his skills and think he has all the makings to be a solid, regular left fielder for many years. Simmons is a solid command-and-control guy that should end up being a very good number 4 starter for the A's as soon as next September.

Carter's potential is through the roof. But my outlook on him is a bit jaded, not because of the strikeouts, but because of his lack of defensive prowess. He's got an amazing power bat, but I hope he figures a way to stay at 3rd for awhile, because then he'd really be something! His prospect value would be severely lessened if he has to be a DH immediately upon making the pros.  Cardenas is an advanced hitter for his age and although he struggled after coming to the A's for Blanton, he still showed enough promise to make it possible that he fulfills his potential as a .300 average, .780+ OPS 2nd baseman with fairly good defense. As an up-the-middle player, that type of production would be very valuable. I loved watching Doolittle in the California League, however he really struggled in Texas League. If he can combine the patience he showed last season with the power he showed this season at the Cal League he'll be a solid big league 1st baseman with Gold Glove defense. However, I'm not sure if he has 30-homer, elite power in him.

Donaldson and Brown really broke out in Stockton this past season. Donaldson is a little better at making contact and plays a more demanding position, even if he doesn't do it all that well yet. If he stays at catcher long term, he'll be a very good prospect. Brown's limitations are well-known: he's basically Jack Cust with a little less propensity to walk but with solid centerfield defense and good speed. His swing might have some major holes in it, but I think he'll make a good, not great, big league outfielder within the next few years.

Italiano is a nice story. Coming back from shoulder surgery and a skull fracture that limited him to less than 20 innings each of the past two seasons, no one knew what to expect from Craig. He responded by dominating the Midwest League and earning a promotion to Stockton, where he struggled with location and probably fatigue. Italiano threw the most innings of his career and his low-mid 90's fastball and power curve make for a good strikeout combination while his changeup is passable enough to enable him to remain a starter for the time being.

If H-Rod showed more ability to remain a starter and control his stuff, he'd be much higher on this list, but his season was disappointing. He was probably rushed to AA, but I'm still seeing him as a guy with constant trouble with command and doesn't have a plus offspeed offering. I love the 100mph heat, but that can only get him so far. I love Matt Sulentic! I think he'll end up being a left-handed version of Aaron Cunningham.

Hunter and Dixon, the two highest profile signees from this season's draft, are very high on potential. Hunter profiles as either a number 2/3 big league starter or late-inning reliever. Dixon is just a 5-tool freak who some have compared to a young Torii Hunter. I guess someone like that has a bit of value... Arnold Leon, one of the first of the new wave of Latin American prospects to sign with the A's, pitched very effectively as a 19-year old for the Stockton Ports this past season and held his own the Mexican League late in the season. He's now 100-percent A's property and with his great control and solid stuff, could easily develop into a nice back-rotation starter.

I enjoyed watching Outman fling 94mph heater inning after inning this September. But I thought that he was very hittable and his off-speed stuff wasn't great. I think he'll settle into a bullpen roll long-term, but he'll be a valuable one with that heater. Weeks is a wildcard at this point. His hip flexor injury seems pretty serious as he has yet to even appear in a single Instructional League game. He's got all the tools to be a very productive spark-plug type leadoff hitter, and if he can even-out his 2nd base defense or transition to center field, he could be a major weapon. But there's a lot of uncertainty there.

I had to throw Carignan and Demel into the list as they both had fantastic seasons, both posting a K/9 over 12.00. That's just insane! Demel is older and in the lower level, but he had better control and a better groundball rate. Carignan needs to work on his control, but is incredibly tough to hit. Both should be late-inning relievers on the big club within two years.

Feel free to criticize/bash/revise/or post your own top-20 lists...that's what comments are for! I'm sure I missed some guys. As for Inoa, I omitted him from the list as he hasn't even played a truly competitive professional game in his career and no one really knows what the A's have in him. Also, I just wanted to show off how deep this system is by semi-purposely omitting both Michel and Gio! To me, it still looks excellent!

Grover's Top-20 List

 

I’ve never been big on making Top 20 lists, finding the right balance between tools, level and production has always been a bit of a chore. I don’t really like chores. Feel free to bask in my genius or question my sanity… I imagine folks will veer from one extreme to the other as they peruse my list.

 

#1 Brett Anderson (2/1/1988) LHSP

 

Anderson sat at 92-93 all year, touching 95 with his fastball. He’s got an above-average change-up, both breaking balls and excellent command as his 2.31 BB/9 will attest. He struck out 118 in 105 IP and posted a 4.37 K/BB rate. He’s not the groundball whore Cahill is but he earned his share with a 1.92 GO/AO. He’s probably nice to puppies and small children. I’m not saying he’s the kind of guy you want your daughter to marry; I’m saying he’s the kind of guy that makes you want to have daughters to begin with. A strong Spring Training (henceforth abbreviated ST) will probably see him start the year in Sacramento, putting him a half-step ahead of Cahill and earning him the #1 spot.

 

#2 Trevor Cahill (3/1/1988) RHSP

 

Cahill sat at 93-94, touching 96 with his fastball. More importantly, his fastball possesses incredible sink to the tune of a 2.43 GO/AO. If you listen to the wind on a quit desert night you can hear the whispers of comparisons to Brandon Webb. What’s being spoken boldly in some scouting circles is a big league floor as a #3 SP. Trust me when I say that makes him pretty freaking special. His command slipped a bit in AA, I think he starts 2009 back in Midland.

 

#3 Chris Carter (12/18/1986) 1B/3B/OF; Bats: R

 

Chris Carter crushes baseballs, hammering 35 doubles, 5 triples and 44 home runs for Stockton during the regular season and through the play-offs. He strikes out a lot but can work a walk. The A’s have dreams of him playing 3B but the consensus is that isn’t happening. He’s also tried 1B and RF… the experiments will continue next year in Midland.

 

#4 Aaron Cunningham (4/24/1986) OF; Bats: R

 

Solid-average tools across the board, does a lot of things well but probably won’t be great in any one area. Not the tools package I’d prefer the #4 ranked prospect but I can’t ignore a 329/400/532 line in the upper minors.

 

#5 Vincent Mazzaro (9/27/1986) RHSP

 

Mazzaro’s sinker sat at 92-93, touching 95. He improved his slider but his sinker and command (1.48 GO/AO; 2.36 BB/9; 2.89 K/BB rate) led him to being named Texas League pitcher of the year. Certainly the most improved prospect in the system, there is some concern about 2008 being a fluke. Then again, the Texas League had four months to figure out the (then) 21 year old pitcher and he dominated to the tune of a 1.90 ERA over 137.1 IP. He needs to keep working on his off-speed stuff but that’s what AAA is for.

 

#6 Rashun Dixon (8/27/1990) OF; Bats: R

 

Yeah, I’m surprised by this ranking too. I dropped him in the slot and no one was able to push him out. An absolute tool shed, the best athlete in all of Mississippi, Dixon showed power and speed in the Arizona Rookie League. The first of the A’s over-slot draftees, Dixon was bought out of a football scholarship to Mississippi State for $600K. He’s got all the power and speed you could want, hitting 3 doubles, 10 triples and 8 home runs while going 5/7 on SB attempts. He also converted from high school catcher to CF and was making all the catches by the end of the year. He also had an 18/68 BB/K rate in 179 at bats so there’s work to be done. But the ceiling is amazing.

 

#7 Adrian Cardenas (10/10/1987) 2B/SS; Bats: L

 

Everyone at Baseball America keeps trying to push this guy to 3B but do the A’s listen? NOOOO! Oakland is trying him at SS which is going to fail. That said, a 294/364/399 line between the FSL, CAL & TL is fairly impressive. His bat ultimately profiles to hit 20 home runs while hitting for average but the power hasn’t shown itself the past two seasons. He’s got a strong arm, reliable hands and slightly above-average speed. He also ran the base paths exceptionally well, stealing 16 bases on 17 attempts.

 

#8 Gio Gonzalez (9/19/1985) LHSP

 

Gonzalez probably won’t qualify as a prospect in next year’s BA Prospect Handbook (too much service time) but he hasn’t thrown more than 50 IP so he gets to be in my top 20 list. Gio is going to keep driving us mad for a while, what with the low-90’s fastball and the big breaking curve and a Zito-like penchant for teasing the strike zone. His 7.56 H/9 in AAA was impressive and the 128 K in 123 IP is a plus, but the 61 walks and the overall butt-kicking he endured in the Show are definite downers.  I like to think it’ll be worth it in the end… or, at least by 2010.

 

#9 Michel Inoa (Uh-oh, can’t find a birth date!) RHSP

 

A 16 year old with enough tools to get the normally tight fisted Billy Beane to kick loose $4.25 million deserves to be in the Top 10 of any A’s prospect list. I won’t place him any higher until we actually start to see some performance data.

 

#10 Josh Outman (9/14/1984) LHSP

 

What can I say; I’ve got a weakness for LHSP who can hit 94 MPH with their fastballs. He’s never going to have better than average command but he’s got the raw stuff to work around that. The Phillies didn’t do his development any favors by trying to convert Outman into a reliever last year. Also, his name is Hell-a cool.

 

#11 Jemile Weeks (1/26/1987) 2B; Bats: S

 

Weeks went straight from the College World Series to starting at 2B for the Kane County Cougars  in the Mid-West League  and didn’t embarrass himself, posting a 297/422/405 line in 74 at bats. An injury ruined his debut but he walked more than he struck out (13/12) and he stole 6 bases in 8 attempts, pretty much what you want a future lead-off hitter to accomplish.

 

#12 Sean Doolittle (9/26/1986) 1B/OF; Bats: L

 

Sean-do-much, especially in High-A Stockton when he made like the Thing with a Clobbering Time line of 305/385/560 in 334 at bats. The A’s didn’t so much promote Doolittle to AA as much as they showed mercy to the rest of the Cal League. AA Midland was a different story (254/311/388) but altogether it was a very successful year. The strike outs, 153 in 535 at bats, are a little excessive and can hopefully be trimmed while not costing any of the new found power. Doolittle showed better control of the strike zone last year and in college so if he can keep from being over-aggressive in his quest to hit the bomb the K’s should go down and the batting average up. He also showed off his athleticism by playing a respectable RF.

 

#13 Corey Brown (11/26/1985) OF; Bats: L

 

Brown swings-and-misses so often that there were wind chill warnings posted in Stockton. Including the playoffs, Brown struck out 191 times in 541 at bats. He also hit 31 home runs despite spending more than half the season playing in the least friendly hitters’ league in pro ball. One of the best athletes in the A’s system, Brown plays a solid-average CF and stole 16 bases in 17 attempts. He’ll either end up a big league starter who profiles similar to Mike Cameron or he’ll crash and burn spectacularly.

 

#14 Josh Donaldson (12/8/1985) C/???; Bats: R

 

Mr. Donaldson, a former 3B converted to catcher, is not listed as a catcher with the Phoenix Desert Dogs in the Arizona Fall League. We’ll find out what the A’s have planned for him when the AFL kicks off. He absolutely crushed the CAL with a 330/391/564 performance that all but demands a higher ranking… unfortunately his MWL line of 217/276/349 says this is where he belongs.

 

#15 James Simmons (9/29/1986) RHSP

 

Simmons went from UC-riverside to AA Midland after getting drafted in the 1st round last year. He’s now thrown 165.2 IP as a pro, all in AA, and has posted an 3.60 ERA, a 2.18 BB/9, 7.79 K/9 and a 3.58 K/BB rate. All of which is certainly nice, none of which makes up for the fact that he lost velocity as his fastball sat at 88-89, down from the 90-92 he threw in college. He’s got an above-average change up but his breaking pitches don’t break enough and he doesn’t keep the ball on the ground, so sayeth his 0.91 GO/AO. Simmons needs to get back the velocity (it’s not uncommon for pitchers to lose some velocity their first full season only to regain it after they get used to pro ball) and sharpen his breaking stuff. He’ll get his chance next year in Sacramento.

 

#16 Jason Christian (6/16/1987) SS; Bats: L

 

Meet the front-runner for the position of A’s SS of the future. Christian hit 294/396/424 in two minor league stops, ending with the Kane County Cougars for the final 6 games of their season. The 73 K’s in 238 at bats and 19 errors in 68 games are an eyesore but he earns praise from scouts on his glove and hit 17 doubles, 1 triple and 4 home runs while walking 39 times and stealing 13 bases in 14 attempts.

 

#17 Henry Rodriguez (2/25/1987) RHRP

 

Rodriguez probably has the best arm of anyone on this list with a fastball that sat at 98-99 and an improving slider. It doesn’t mean a thing until Grasshopper learns to throw strikes outside of A-ball. 51 hits and 44 walks in 41 IP at AA Midland spells F-A-I-L.

 

#18 Nino Leyja (10/2/1990) SS; Bats: R

 

Leyja is another over-slot signee from the 2008 draft, earning a $110K bonus to sign as a 15th round pick. Have I mentioned lately how thrilled I am with the A’s for actually spending money in the draft? No? Well… I’m thrilled. Leyja took the AZL by storm but got nicked up and missed a bit of time near the end of the season. He came back to go 6-18 in his last 5 games, hitting 2 doubles and 2 triples in the process. Scouts like his hands and quickness but aren’t sure if he’ll stick at SS.

 

#19 Matt Sulentic (10/6/1987) OF; Bats L

 

Matt must have humped the mother of all slump busters to go from hitting 175/234/218 in Low-A last year to 309/368/481 at High-A Stockton this year. Scouts even gave his OF defense good reviews. Still, he’s pretty much maxed out physically and the offensive demands of a big league corner OFer are fairly rigorous. He needs to hit more home runs (9) or improve his 30/91 BB/K rate in 343 at bats to earn serious consideration for a starting gig in Oakland.

 

#20 Jeremy Barfield (7/12/1988) OF; Bats: R

 

Hit 271/341/375 for Vancouver after getting drafted from San Jacinto JC. The numbers are nice but certainly do not demand inclusion on this list. Jeremy earns this spot because he stands 6’5, 240 lbs and is the son of former All-Star Jesse Barfield. He also controls the strike zone reasonably well for a big guy, with a 26/42 BB/K numbers in 251 at bats. Let’s see what happens here.

 

 

5 recs  |  Comment 108 comments

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Nice work guys!!!

I love the work you two do here.

"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."

-Charles Manson

by kaweahkaweah on Oct 6, 2008 7:40 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks to Taj

I sent him my list a couple days ago and he was kind enough to provide links to the guys I had on my sheet but failed to make his.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 7:54 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks a ton.

Too long for me to get through the whole thing at work — which is a good thing. Thanks for the consistently outstanding prospect updates.

by rageon on Oct 6, 2008 8:15 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

No DLS anywhere, huh?

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Oct 6, 2008 8:41 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

That was my thought

He had TJS, but it’s hard to believe that he is still not one of the Top 20 prospects. If he comes back at even 90% of his former ability, he is still one of the best prospects in the A’s system.

by BlameChannel53 on Oct 6, 2008 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm ...

I’d probably expect to see him somewhere in the Michael Inoa range …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 6, 2008 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm just not a big fan of DLS.

Admittedly, I totally forgot about him, and I’m sure grover did too with all the other good prospect stories in the organization, but even so, I think he’d probably slot in the 10-20 prospect range at this point. As I mentioned in my update of a few weeks past, DLS isn’t exactly a spring chicken with lots of time to reach his ceiling…he’s 22 and hasn’t pitched above A-ball yet – for contrast, both Cahill and Anderson were two years younger this season and dominated at higher levels.

He’l be 23 next season, and if he doesn’t come out of the gates ready to go and take on the Texas League, then I won’t see a whole lot of upside in him. Overall, I like that Beane took the chance on him, but his status as a top prospect was tenuous to begin with as he kind of came out of nowhere last season and with his injury, his status is definitely slipping…

I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!

by Taj Adib on Oct 6, 2008 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

DLS wasn't healthy enough to pitch in the Instructs

So his ranking takes a plunge until he’s pitching again.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was five months after he had Tommy John...

no one on earth recovers that quickly…

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And your point?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Point?

The point is that it was known that he would not be pitching in instructional league five months ago, yet you appear to be making it out as some kind of significant development.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

My point is he’s not pitching. TJ surgery is becoming more and more routine but it is not without risk. He should bounce back, then again, some guys don’t.

I have always lived by the rule that if a player can’t get on the field and play then he’s basically worthless. DLS would have made my Top 30 if I had gone that far, but until he proves himself healthy and capable again he stays out of my Top 20.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think that's pretty silly ...

Inoa can’t get on a field that matters at this point — why is he there and not DLS?

It’s the same basic equation as with any other prospect:
Upside x Chance of Reaching it

DLS’ Chance of Reaching it has certainly taken a big hit, but his upside is more or less where it was before the surgery, so he shouldn’t have fallen that far.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 6, 2008 11:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I explained why Inoa made the Top 10

DLS did not pitch well in 2008. Why? Because he blew out his elbow. OK, well, has he recovered from the injury? No. So we have no idea what kind of stuff he’s going to have the next time he pitches. His upside has potentially changed dramatically… and not for the better. You’re basically saying I should write my 2008 end-o-season Top 20 based on what everyone else has done in the past year except DLS. For whatever reason he’s entitled to be judged based on his 2007 body of work.

That is silly.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 7, 2008 12:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

“Upside x Chance of Reaching it”
x probability of being healthy

it seems like as with anything else, since this is all guesswork, that can be estimated based on how other pitchers recover and how effective they are post-surgery.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 7, 2008 1:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not quite

I’m not really guessing at the ceilings my Top 20, I’ve got a decent idea what that is. I’m not sure who’s actually going to make it but that’s not what we’re talking about.

Right now DLS can’t pitch. That’s a negative. He could recover in time for the start of next season or he could suffer a setback and miss more time. How long is it going to take for him to get his stuff and command back once he returns to pitching?

His 2008 performance sucked. His ceiling is murky. He’s not exactly a teenager, so you’ve got to start watching his age-relative-to-league clock.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 7, 2008 1:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No one's saying his ranking shouldn't take a hit

They are simply saying that he is probably better than, eg, Jeremy Barfield. I actually think both his ceiling AND his probability are better than Barfield’s, and you could probably say that about one or two other guys on your list and probably Taj’s list too.

I just don’t understand what on earth instructional league has to do with anything. Yes, he isn’t pitching there; yes, we already knew that. It’s like you’re dropping him twice— once for getting injured, then once more for not pitching. What’s he supposed to do, start throwing left-handed?

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2008 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 7, 2008 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Him not pitching in Instructs means...

He’s not pitching in Instructs. That’s it. I’m giving folks a quick update, which admittedly doesn’t contain a whole lot of info.

I’m not dinging him twice, just one huge ding and oh-by-the-way, he’s still re-habbing.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 7, 2008 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As for Barfield

I had a host of canidates for #20, I picked Barfield ‘cause of decent strike zone judgement, bloodlines and he’s huge.

And I’d have put Demel at #20 before I put DLS.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 7, 2008 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, DLS definitely should have dropped ...

I’m guessing if you could magically transport the DLS of a year ago into today’s farm system, he would properly be ranked somewhere in the 5-8 range.Yes?

With his significantly lower probability now, but with a fairly comparable upside, I’d say that player should have fallen into the 13-16 range — comparable, perhaps, to a Corey Brown.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 7, 2008 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You forget

I’m a health Nazi. If a guy can’t play I rate him at almost zero.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 7, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If he was the same prospect that he was in January 2008, ie 21 years old, no injury, etc

I would rank him #3 in the system behind Cahill and Anderson. In terms of pure pitch quality, no one in the A’s system and very few pitchers in all of baseball could match him.

And as I noted, the injury did drop him way down my list— he was in the mid-teens on my midseason list.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd put DLS definitely in the top 10

and possibly even in the top 5, since there’s a big dropoff after the top 2.

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on Oct 6, 2008 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I completely disagree about there being a "big dropoff" after the top 2

Mainly because I think Aaron Cunningham has just as good of a chance of being a 10-year quality major leaguer as anybody ranked 1-3. And I’d put money on him being a better major leaguer than DLS.

by thejd44 on Oct 6, 2008 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is great

Especially since the A’s are all about prospects right now.

by Tyler Bleszinski on Oct 6, 2008 8:50 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

using a spot for jeff gray

on AFL, doesnt make sense…i’m guessing all their worthwhile pitching prospects above AA not many left. since they didnt want to use cahill/simmons/anderson

by Asfan4ever723 on Oct 6, 2008 9:36 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hard to see who else they could have sent there

Maybe Ryan Wing if they thought they were going to hang on to him?

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pretty standard decision by the A's

The most consistent weakness of the Arizona Fall League since its inception has been the reluctance of teams to send their top pitching prospects. The dearth of top pitching prospects in the AFL obviously makes it impossible to use the AFL as a tool to evaluate those top pitching prospects, and also limits the ability to evaluate top hitting prospects against elite pitching competition.

I don’t blame teams for their decisions, however. As much I would like to see our top starting prospects in the AFL to satisfy my own curiosity, I think the A’s are correct to let those pitchers get their work in the instructional leagues where they can work with the A’s coaches and be given the exact amount of work deemed best for their development.

It also makes sense to send Jeff Gray as a method of evaluating whether to keep him on the 40 man roster prior to the Rule 5 draft. He is definitely a candidate to be dropped given his age and limited upside.

by BlameChannel53 on Oct 6, 2008 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gray...

the only reason he’s back at the fall league is that the A’s are wanting to change his motion and give him game time with it and the only place to do it is in AZ..it has nothing to do with his “limited upside”.

by jerrymcguire on Oct 6, 2008 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good analysis

It looks like pitching will stay very strong for years to come. Hopefully many of the current youngs position players will become at least league average then a few key trades / free agent signings will fill in the gaps.

Also I don’t know why but I’m skeptical that Mazzaro will keep it up until he has another good year and I think Chris Carter is the most important of all the prospects since we need power and nobody else has his power potential.

RIVER CATS: AAA CHAMPS!

by niallmack on Oct 6, 2008 10:18 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The 31 gentlemen off of whom Corey Brown homered beg to differ

I’d say Dixon has the potential, too, but I understand wanting to wait a bit before anointing him the next Curtis Granderson.

Ultimately I’d have to say Cardenas is the most important chip in my view. The team needs hitters at defense-first positions, and Cardenas has potential to be reminiscent of the man whose presence made him expendable in Philly, Chase Utley.

Those three guys (Carter, Cardenas, Brown) are the only ones that I would consider “untouchable” this offseason (exception: if they are part of a package for a better version of themselves). There’s enough pitching depth that any of the arms, even Cahill, are theoretically tradable if the right offer comes along. Untouchability to me is a function of system scarcity, not of individual talent.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd agree with you on Cardenas if the A's ever moved him to 3B

As it is, the A’s have other options at 2B so as long as the A’s marginalize Cardenas’ potential he doesn’t deserve the "untouchable’ moniker.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, what?

Moving him to a less defensive valuable position increases his value?

I can sort of understand your argument about A’s specific positional VORP but it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. If the A’s had Cardenas (2B version) and another team had a 3B equal to Cardenas in batting, the A’s could ask for more in return in a trade of the two because Cardenas plays 2B. Do you disagree with that Grover? (its also possible PT/I misunderstood what you’re saying)

Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's

by iamawesomer on Oct 6, 2008 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree with anyone misspelling my name

Although I don’t recall 3B being a less valuable defensive positon vs. 2B. Can someone clear this up?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tango et al's positional adjustment is +6 runs for second base

and +1 run for third base. If I’m remembering correctly, that is. (The others would be +11 for short/catcher, +4 for center, -6 for corner OF, -9 for first, -15 for DH.)

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Following up on that, Avg EqA at 2B is .264, 3B is .271

If they A’s keep Weeks, you’d figure Cardenas would move to 3B. BA thought his DP skills weren’t good enough to stay at 2B as well.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Oct 6, 2008 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll explain

The SS experiment has a high possibility of failure, so let’s forgo that fantasy altogether. The A’s have multiple options to play 2B in the next 1-2 years (Ellis, Pennington, Patterson, Weeks, Cardenas) so the need for Cardenas to be the guy is lower. He might still be everyone’s 1st choice, but if he flopped or got traded or was abducted by aliens there would still be options at 2B.

Meanwhile, 3B is a gaping pit of emptiness. Cardenas has the tools to be a good defender at the hot corner but the A’s have not moved him into the location. This is partially due to their dream that Carter could play a competent 3B for Midland next year. (Another move with long odds against it.)

Therefore, if the A’s are unwilling to maximize Cardenas’ potential by fast tracking him to a spot of definite need (and one it seems he’s equipped to play) then I don’t see how you can call him an untouchable player. Hard to get, sure. But not untouchable.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This still makes no sense whatsoever to me

The only way it would make Cardenas “touchable” is if the A’s believe for some reason that Cardenas is incapable of handling third base, which I don’t see to be the case at all. I think they’re just moving down the defensive spectrum until they find a position he sticks at. (Ditto with Carter.) The order, for the infield, would be SS-2B-3B-1B.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK, I'll try again

He’s not going to be a starting SS in the big leagues.

As the org. chart is currently structured the A’s have 4 options to play 2B and ZERO (realistic) options to play 3B. The 2B not named Cardenas don’t have the bat teams like for a 3B.

There is an immediate and pressing need in Oakland for a new 3B yet the A’s have not moved the prospect with the best toolset to handle the position into said position. I don’t know why this is, it just is.

Cardenas would be untouchable if he was a good prospect (which he is) and he was plrojected to play at a critical position of need… which he isn’t. Again, the A’s have options besides Cardenas to play 2B, they don’t have anyone in the pipeline to play 3B.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've reached the same conclusion

although I don’t include Brown in that equation.

Right now there are five guys in the entire org that are untouchable: Buck, Devine, Carter, Cardenas, and Suzuki. I’m not saying that these are the five cornerstones of the building process, just that I can’t imagine getting value for them in trade which exceeds what they have for us at the moment.

by jakarta on Oct 6, 2008 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree...

I think the A’s could easily get value for Suzuki. Everyone likes young, healthy catchers with semi-competent hitting skills.

As for Buck, I just don’t see how he’s irreplaceable. Him, Sweeney and Cunningham are somewhat similar players. The A’s will not likely be playing all three of them at once anyway. Any given one of them is expendable under the right circumstances (which is all being “touchable” means; it doesn’t mean a player is “on the block” in the traditional sense).

The A’s probably wouldn’t get a ton for him, but really you could say the same for any oft-injured player.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

my reasoning

I believe that Buck has a bigger chance to be a true plus hitter. In the position the A’s are in, it is more worth it for them to see if Buck can be that then it would be for another team who is looking to trade for a promising outfielder. It doesn’t hurt us to wait and see during 2009 if he can be injury free and be the .850-.900 hitter he should be. Put in arbitrary percentages, I’ll take the %60 chance that Buck can be a .860 hitter over the next three seasons over the %85 chance that Cunningham and Sweeney can be .760-780 hitters over the next three seasons, given the state of our roster at the present time.

Suzuki, they love the way he works and handles pitchers. They expect to be having a bunch of really young guys join the staff over the next few years, they already are happy with the job Suzuki does and the durability he has demonstrated. Why, in this off-season would you trade him? I’m not saying that Suzuki has to be catcher on the next great A’s team, just that for this off-season I can’t conceive of it being worthwhile to move him.

by jakarta on Oct 6, 2008 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cunningham has every bit as much potential to be a plus hitter as Buck does

considering that he’s consistently put up better numbers (both average and power) at a younger age… and isn’t made out of millimeter-thick glass.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Cunningham

I watched him quite a few times last year when he was here in Visalia. I’ll disagree that he has as much hitting potential as Buck. If you think that he does however, obviously you would/should disagree that Buck shouldn’t be moved this off-season.

by jakarta on Oct 6, 2008 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, and this indicates you're missing my point here

I don’t think any of the three of them are unmoveable, because they are all qualitatively similar players (even if they are quantitatively more or less valuable). They all slot into the same role.

To rephrase this, none of them gets an “added value bonus” for Oakland because they play a position of scarcity in the system. A team that has plenty of middle infielders likely won’t value Cardenas as much as Oakland will. By contrast, a team short on outfielders might value one of the Buck/Sweeney/Cunningham troika MORE than Oakland does, making them attractive trade candidates.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't recall where Cunningham put up a 147 OPS+ in the majors

at a younger age than Buck. If he does it next year, it will be at the same age.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Oct 6, 2008 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't recall Buck doing that either

seeing as how B-Ref has it at 130 (and his career mark, after this season’s disaster, at 118).

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2008 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Outa curiosity

Lets say you do get an enticing offer for Suzuki, an offer you don’t want to say no to, who catches for Oakland next year?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair question

I think you have to look to the free agent market or make a trade. Rob Bowen isn’t going to hack it and Landon Powell hasn’t shown he’s ready. I’d make inquiries about Mike Redmond— he’s a good hitting catcher stuck behind an extraordinary hitting catcher in Joe Mauer, and he has a very friendly contract. Tampa seems set with Navarro, so they might be willing to trade one of their younger dudes as well, eg Jaso.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've seen Corey Brown play.

And I’m really just not as impressed as you are.

I actually think he’s one of the main guys the A’s should try to move in a deal to acquire a major league hitter. Not only do I not see him putting it all together, but I also think the OF depth is so great that he might not have a real future with the major league team anyway (as there really isn’t one of the prospect-types, including guys like Buck who aren’t exactly prospects anymore I’d rather have Brown than).

by thejd44 on Oct 6, 2008 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A fair arguement

There is indeed a high risk of flame-out with Brown.

On the other hand, guys who can play solid-average CF defense and hit 30 home runs are extremely rare.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If he makes it to the majors, he'll be worth playing over someone...

Big if, natch.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

His upside is a healthy Mike Cameron ... (with a little extra power and a little less D)

who, when healthy, brought the value of a superstar, even if he never got that recognition — which is a much better player than anyone else in the OF discussion except C-Gon has the potential to be.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 6, 2008 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So he's Chris Young?

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2008 12:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah ...

except with a little extra power and a little less D …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 7, 2008 12:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i like mazzaro better than simmons

power sinkers are usually effective and he has good command of 4 pitches

simmons i still havent heard much on the progress of a 3rd pitch

by Asfan4ever723 on Oct 6, 2008 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd have put Simmons behind Mazzaro and Rodriguez. I just don't see the upside.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Oct 6, 2008 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see Carter

As having 40 homers a year potential versus Brown as more of a 30 a year potential. But I see your point. The overall fact is that there are so many guys you can say have potential that this list could look very different next year in a good way.

RIVER CATS: AAA CHAMPS!

by niallmack on Oct 6, 2008 11:02 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Corey Brown is a CF, IIRC.

Taking position into consideration, I am way down on Chris Carter (and way high on Brown).

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Oct 6, 2008 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

YDRC

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 6, 2008 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

WTF

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Oct 6, 2008 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You Do Remember Correctly

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 6, 2008 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Theoretically I would agree with you

Obviously, if the two end up producing similar offensive numbers, Brown, as a CF, will be much more valuable than Carter, who probably ends up as a 1B or DH.

Having seen a fair number of at bats of the two players, and having the benefit of the opinions of others, I still would rank Carter higher than Brown at this point. I base that on three things:

1. Brown has good raw power. Carter has historically great raw power. I saw Carter hit a ball in Visalia this year that very few players in the history of the game could ever hope to hit. Carter’s hit was reminiscent of Canseco’s laser in the World Series at Dodger Stadium that dented the camera in CF, except it was about 30 feet high when it cleared the fence 400 feet away and was still rising at that point. Carter also has a much better frame to maintain power as he ages, and could become even more powerful as his frame could hold more muscle with ease.

2. Brown develops his power by swinging at max effort on virtually every swing he takes. That will be exploited at higher levels unless he is the next Dustin Pedroia, and Pedroia never swung and missed at anywhere near the rates Brown does. Carter swings and misses a lot as well, which is a reason to be concerned about his ability to hit better pitching, but the mechanics and effort of his swing gives me greater confidence that Carter will adjust at higher levels.

3. Brown is more of a free swinger than Carter, which is another thing to be concerned with as Brown faces advanced pitching. This observation is supported by the much lower walk rate that Brown had at Stockton versus Carter’s walk rate.

Both Brown and Carter have very high offensive ceilings, with Brown’s overall ceiling being higher based on his defensive ability. Based on what I’ve seen at this point, however, I think Carter has a much better chance of reaching his ceiling, and I rate him higher.

by BlameChannel53 on Oct 6, 2008 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chris Carter is HUGE -- that I can definitely agree on -- think Frank Thomas huge

His game is more reminiscent of McGwire, though, so he doesn’t have quite the same upside.

This is a guy whose numbers, to this point, compare very, very favorably to Ryan Howard (who is overrated but is still very good).

I basically agree with everything you said … just had to mention how HUGE Carter is. (He’s really huge)

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 6, 2008 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait, so is Carter huge?

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Oct 6, 2008 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd lean in that direction ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 6, 2008 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 6, 2008 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks.

I don’t have the same observations as you, not having seen the players in question, so I’ll default to your judgement.

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Oct 6, 2008 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

great read

thanks taj and grover

by oakinboston on Oct 6, 2008 11:26 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Zonis's Prospect List
  1. SP Trevor Cahill
  2. SP Brett Anderson
  3. OF Aaron Cunningham
  4. 3B Chris Carter
  5. SP James Simmons
  6. SP Vin Mazzaro
  7. SP Gio Gonzalez
  8. 1B Sean Doolittle
  9. OF Rashun Dixon
  10. SP Josh Outman
  11. SS Adrian Cardenas
  12. C1 Josh Donaldson
  13. CF Corey Brown
  14. SS Dustin Coleman
  15. SS Nino Leyja
  16. SP Michel Inoa
  17. 2B Jemile Weeks
  18. SP Tyson Ross
  19. SP Brett Hunter
  20. SS Jason Christian
  21. RP Henry Rodriguez
  22. OF Matt Sulentic
  23. RP Arnold Leon
  24. SP Craig Italiano
  25. OF Jeremey Barfield
  26. RP Andrew Carignan
  27. RP Sam Demel
  28. RP Jared Lansford
  29. RP Andrew Bailey
  30. SP Fautino De Los Santos
  31. C1 Petey Paramore
  32. 1B Matt Spencer
  33. C1 Anthony Recker
  34. 3B Jeff Baisley
  35. RP Ray Wing
  36. SP Jason Fernandez
  37. SP Travis Banwart
  38. SP Carlos Hernandez
  39. OF Grant Desme
  40. SP Michael Madsen
  41. OF Danny Putnam
  42. OF Jermaine Mitchell
  43. RP Jose Garcia
  44. OF Tyreace House
  45. SS Gregorio Petit
  46. 3B Jesus Guzman
  47. SS Justin Sellers
  48. OF Michael Massaro
  49. SP Ryan Webb
  50. OF Javier Herrera

facepalm.jpg

by Zonis on Oct 6, 2008 12:33 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Jesus, if the A's think about Petit the way you do, it's no wonder they don't care if he gets any at-bats

since apparently he’s worse than a 4th round pitcher with a history of shoulder problems (Banwart), a guy who pitched in 3 games this season (Madsen), and a player with 16 pro games in a year and a half (Desme).

I mean, christ, it’s one thing to say the guy is not the next Omar Vizquel, it’s another thing to bury him below a bunch of injury-prone low-minors draftees. Petit has probably already provided more value to the A’s than any of those three will in their entire careers.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you Paul

In my case (and I’m not Zonis) I’m discounting him because of the way the A’s treated him, meaning that it looks like they won’t let him provide more value to the organization.

In purely objective terms, there is some value in having an emergency caddy for SS/2B and C stashed away in AAA. Jeremy Brown did have some value for the A’s just because he wasn’t a catastrophic worst case scenario as a #3/4 catcher. But if that’s all the A’s are going to let Petit do, his value on an A’s list plummets accordingly.

by jakarta on Oct 6, 2008 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It shouldn't... not if you're doing the list "the way the pros do it"

BA, BP, et al generally rate players in a vacuum. Otherwise guys would get downgraded for no reason other than that they’re blocked by a player at the MLB level.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

so leyja and coleman

is a better prospect than inoa, weeks, hunter, rodriguez, leon, italiano, carignan, demel, DLS, paramore…

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 6, 2008 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

First Taj, now Zonis

Ranking Simmons as the #5 prospect in the A’s system is a stretch of Shaq-in-a-leotard proportions. I like the guy but an 89 MPH 4-seam fastball and a below-average breaking ball does not a good pitcher make.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 12:57 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It seems like his reputation is similar to Mazzaro, but his upside is not.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Oct 6, 2008 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am actually not all too high on Mazzaro.

I think he’s a perfect Sell High candidate, and should be included, perhaps as the main piece, in a trade this off season for a bat. I see Mazzaro as a guy who had an awesome year that was out of line from his other years, and then struggled at AAA. The Jesus Guzman of Pitchers sort of speak. I think he will regress, and it is best to trade him while his value is high than wait a year.

That, and we already have a derth of pitching prospects, both at the MLB Level AND in the High Minors.

The only untouchables I would have in our system are Cahill and Anderson.

facepalm.jpg

by Zonis on Oct 6, 2008 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's so special about Simmons? How is he any better than Braden?

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2008 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uh, seriously?

Braden has average command, maybe a little above… Simmons has plus-plus command, probably the best in the entire 2007 draft class.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2008 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As always, thanks for doing the work to give us a sounding board to discuss prospects

There is so much to comment on regarding this A’s system. I really am having a difficult time putting people in the correct order. It seems to me that the A’s now have 50-60 guys whose development they care because there is a possibility of them contributing to the big league club.

In all prospect lists there is a bit of personal philosophy involved which weighs the difference between between the possible career value of the player versus the possible value to that particular organization. Take Nelson Cruz: he had a great year for the Rangers’ AAA club this year and then mashed for Texas at the end of the season. There is a very good chance that he can be an above average MLB corner outfielder the next few years and at a cheap price. BUT he didn’t reach those levels until he became a minor league free agent. If you look back on the placement of guys like Nelson Cruz, Carlos Pena, Jack Cust, and Josh Hamilton, they have to some extent started to have careers that justified their placements in prospect lists years earlier.

Or to put it another way, I’d still bet that Javier Herrera has a good chance to have a better career than many of the guys above him on Zonis’ prospect list, but there is a much, much smaller chance that the A’s will be able to reap any value out of his doing so.

Normally, in a team prospect list, the pickings are slim enough that one may place on a list almost everybody that has a chance at a decent big-league career, but right now I feel like I am guessing a bit more than I’d like, as it is worth ranking many more than just the top 20 guys.

****
1 Cahill
2 Anderson
3 Carter
4 Cunningham
5 Cardenas
6 Gio
7 Mazzaro
8 Donaldson
9 Inoa
10 Weeks
11 Doolittle
12 Simmons
13 Brown
14 Outman
15 Leon
16 Dixon
17 Pennington
18 Sulentic
19 HRod
20 DLS
21 Hunter
22 Ross
23 Italiano
24 Baisley
25 Jason Christian
26 Coleman
27 Leyja
28 Barfield
29 Guzman
30 Paramore
31 Carignan
32 Demel
33 Banwart
34 C Hernandez
35 Landsorfd
36 Petit
37 Spencer
38 Herrera
39 Bailey
40+ Capra/Fernandez/Mitchinson/Recker/

by jakarta on Oct 6, 2008 2:34 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

i like this top 5 order the best

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 6, 2008 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Traitor!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i can understand putting anderson slightly ahead of cahill maybe

but cardenas #7?

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 6, 2008 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where's the power been the last two years?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

good point, but once you get past the top four

every remaining guy has a weakness or two (as does one of the top four, carter).

i just don’t think a slg in the low .400s is the end of the world for a 20 year old middle infielder who will be in AA next year.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 7, 2008 2:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Recker???

Are you kidding me? Sure the guy can hit a fastball, which is all he can hit! Anything that breaks…forget about it, he couldn’t hit his way out of a wet paperbag.

Secondly, have you seen him run? I’d have a hard time determining who’s faster, him or Tommy Everidge, and then either one of them have to be timed with a sun dial.

More importantly though, is his defensive abilities which he obviously doesn’t have. He doesn’t know how to call a game, his pitchers don’t like throwing to him and they never had. Rumor is that he never reads scouting reports and goes off the seat of his pants… Last time I checked, big leaguers throw more than fastballs and when they figure him out, he’s done!

by jerrymcguire on Oct 6, 2008 5:19 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Great work guys

Anyway this can be placed on the side as it may get buried faster in the middle and way to much work went into this piece.

by Bud Light on Oct 6, 2008 6:16 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

2009 Draft Order

A’s pick 13th

"just a beating heart ... plasma that we'll put into our uniform." - Billy Beane

by athleticsBB4life on Oct 6, 2008 6:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The point is that it was known that he would not be pitching in instructional league five months ago

yet you appear to be making it out as some kind of significant development.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ole!

I wonder how the buggy program picks exactly WHICH post to randomly mis-assign the reply to.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 6, 2008 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Leyja over Coleman?

Mazzaro that high? SImmons that low? Brown that high?

Never, Never, NEVER give up

by hero66 on Oct 6, 2008 9:09 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Who are you talking to?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It would have been funnier if this wasn't a reply

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Oct 6, 2008 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cahill

Does not “sit” at 93-94. Sorry to say. His fastball ranged between 89-94 at the futures game, and analysts claimed the gun there was a few MPH fast. Its a high 80s/low 90s sinker, hence the Brandon Webb comps.

by NRC on Oct 6, 2008 9:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Complain to Baseball America

I’m using their scouting reports.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 6, 2008 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The BA Cal league scouting report

says that Cahill topped out at 96, but doesn’t mention him sitting at 93-94. Here’s a quote from a BA article early this spring:

“He has a devastating sinker that’s natural for him,” A’s director of player personnel Billy Owens said. “It’s in the low-90s, gets a lot of groundballs. It’s unusual in that he’s a ground ball guy but he can also get strikeouts with his knuckle-curve and his slider. He lengthened his arm this year, so he’s throwing four-seam fastballs now more than last year, and he tops out at 93 (mph).”

http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/prospects/prospect-pulse/2008/266048.html

by NRC on Oct 7, 2008 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

When I saw him, he was 89-91 on the stadium's gun.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 7, 2008 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll look for the link I read

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 7, 2008 11:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

okay, but that’s just one game.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 6, 2008 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bud Light's top 20 Prospects

Here we go pick it apart -

1. Brett Anderson (co #1)
1. Trevor Cahill (co #1)
3. Chris Carter (pure power)
4. Gio Gonzalez (may struggle 1st half but will be a strong finisher. always struggles at first when promoted)
5. Adrian Cardenas (2nd baseman of the future)
6. Rashun Dixon (will make a Cahill like climb up prospect charts next year)
7. Vin Mazzaro (IMO a sell high prospect)
8. Josh Donaldson (impact bat if stays at C)
9. Jemile Weeks (INF version of Juan Pierre)
10. Michel Inoa (4.25 Mil makes him top 10, well see what $$ bought in 09)
11. Fautino De Los Santos (TJ just a setback – but stuff is electric)
12. James Simmons (innings eater – in Joe Blanton lite mold)
13. Henry Alberto Rodriquez (Nuke LaLoosh A’s style – all over the place but when over the plate hard to hit)
14. Aaron Cunningham (Eric Brynes #2)
15. Brett Hunter (could also make huge jump up charts if velocity returns. A great gamble by A’s)
16. Corey Brown (hoping bat meets ball more, cause power is for real)
17. Sean Doolittle (power was a cal league mirage, but all around game will play well)
18. Arnold Leon (big time sleeper moves to Cal Rotation in 09)
19. Tyson Ross (if mechanics can keep arm attached possible mid tier starter)
20. Josh Outman (Alan Embree – Hopefully the good years)

by Bud Light on Oct 7, 2008 9:14 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

An infield version of Juan Pierre is better than Aaron Cunningham?

Besides, Jemile Weeks has virtually nothing in common with Juan Pierre other than being somewhat fast and black.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2008 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

PT your a man of many words

but no list … When do we get to see yours?

Glad you only had 1 objection.

Aaron Cunningham is a 4th OF on a good team. No 1 skill set stands out.

by Bud Light on Oct 8, 2008 7:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'll post it later... I see no reason to cram everything into a month when people have other things on their minds

The offseason is long, the news articles few, and the time-wasting opportunities many.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 9, 2008 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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