Staturday: If you think Mark Ellis is bad, I hate you and find you stupid.
Most of you know that Ellis is a very good defender. Can't hit much, but he's good with the glove. What a lot of you don't know is that Ellis is not just "very good" with the glove, he's one of the best defenders in the majors, and his defense is worth a whole heck of a lot.
I've heard people on AN say that the A's need more offense, not defense. That's such an ignorant statement it makes me cringe. A run saved is a run saved. The balance between offense and defense is overblown. You win games by scoring more runs that your opponent runs. You can do that just as well by preventing runs as you can by scoring them.
Okay, let's get down to numbers. According to MGL, Ellis has saved 23, 12, 26, and 21 runs with his glove from 2005-2008. Based on this, it's not unreasonable to guess that Ellis is worth +20 runs with the glove alone. Almost no players are actually that good with the glove, so let's say Ellis got lucky and that he's actually +15 with the glove.
Ellis wasn't much of a hitter last year, and his endless parade of popups was positively Byrnesian. But his Marcel projection suggests that he will be an exactly league-average hitter going forward. (Those of you who say, "but he hit .233 last year!" will be subject to Nico and his goat. Staturdays are for intelligent discussion, and if you can't keep up then I'd rather you not participate.) Ellis is positively average with the bat.
So, offense and defense combined, Ellis is +15 runs compared to all other players, or +1.5 wins. But that's not all: Ellis is a secondbaseman. I've talked before about positional value before, so I won't rehash it again, but that adds another 0.25 wins to his ledger. And I've talked about replacement level before as well, which adds another 2.5 wins. That means that, all told, Ellis is worth about 4.25 wins above replacement over a full season.
Now, Ellis is coming off surgery and he's getting older, so let's say that his defense and offense both fall off and he misses time next year. Knock over a win off that 4.25 figure, and you get 3 wins above replacement. I'm kicking him down a lot of notches, but I'm being pessimistic here.
Players who were worth about 3 wins above replacement this year: JD Drew, Jack Cust, Miguel Cabrera, Derek Jeter, Justin Morneau.
The A's just signed Justin Morneau to a two-year contract for $11 MM. And, if it works out, the A's have an option for a third year at $6 MM. And I'm being pessimistic about Ellis's future performance. What a ridiculous steal.
Did you know that the going rate for a win on the free-agent market is about $4.8 MM dollars? The A's should be tryin to pay less than that, obviously, since they keep a small payroll. Let's say the A's want to target $3.5 MM per free agent win. They should be paying Ellis at least $10 MM next year.
Assuming Ellis gets worse every year from here on out (to the tune of -0.5 wins per year), assuming no salary inflation over the next three years (almost certainly untrue), Ellis would be worth at least $36 MM on a three year contract in the open market. The A's got him for less than a third of that, and hedged their risk by making the third year a team option. This is almost unfair to Ellis.
How could this go wrong for the A's? Well, let's find the breakeven point. I'm already assuming that Ellis is a +15 run fielder instead of +20, and that he's -5 runs as a hitter instead of +0. So, starting from this pessimistic viewpoint, let's assume that Ellis is even worse.
Knock his fielding for 2009-2010 to +10 and +5 (from +15 and +10). Knock his hitting down to -10 and -15. So, by 2010, he's one of the worst everyday hitters in the majors (like Willie Bloomquist bad) and just barely above average with the glove. That gives the A's 4.5 wins above replacement for two years. Now say Ellis misses a third of the games the A's play. That's now 3 wins above replacement over two years. That would cost, on the free agent market, $14.5 MM, or about $7 MM per year - less than what the A's signed Ellis for.
So - if Ellis is terrible with the bat, sees his fielding fall off a cliff, and misses a third of each season, the A's come out even.
One final thing. There was discussion that the A's have depth at this position because of Cliff Pennington, Eric Patterson, Adrian Cardenas, and Jemile Weeks. The former two are ready for the majors now, but don't project to be anything close to Ellis as a player. Ellis is a star player. Even at the major-league minimum salary, there's no way that Pennington and Patterson are worth playing over Ellis. Cardenas and Weeks are no locks to stay at second base, and while both might be stars like Ellis one day, that day is certainly not until 2010, after which the A's have the option of terminating MaEl's contract.
To his credit, Ellis likes it in Oakland, apparently likes the fans, and is showing loyalty to the organization that stood by him while he rehabbed a potentially career-ending injury. He's throwing away tens of millions of dollars to do that. Whether it's because he's stupid or noble, I don't know. All I know is that A's fans get to benefit.
I'm so happy that I'll get to watch Ellis for the next few years, and you should be too.
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Good Article
People do overlook the prevent runs part especially when you have a scenario where with 2 outs a batter gets a hit that Mark Ellis could have prevented, then not only a run or two scores but then the next guy can hit the ball out of the park, so obviously defense is more important than a lot of us realize. I too am guilty of evaluating a player just on his hitting.
On another note……. I didn’t know we signed Justin Morneau (LOL)
The A’s just signed Justin Morneau to a two-year contract for $11 MM. And, if it works out, the A’s have an option for a third year at $6 MM. And I’m being pessimistic about Ellis’s future performance. What a ridiculous steal.
May The Red Sox and all their fans get food poisoning and all collectively crap their pants
by Trainman on
Oct 24, 2008 12:14 PM PDT
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That's actually his point
Ellis’ contribution = Morneau’s
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 12:18 PM PDT
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I think he was being metaphorical to prove a point
about how people respond different to a statement containing a proven equivalency.
"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL
by oblique on
Oct 24, 2008 12:18 PM PDT
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No,
he was trying to make me go, “We signed Justin Morneau?! ?!?WTF?!?,” and start frantically scanning the list of recent fanposts. And he succeeded!
Ray: "How fun is it to be up here playing in the Big Leagues?"
Gio: "It's *SUPER* fun!!!"
by Poppy on
Oct 24, 2008 2:22 PM PDT
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Be happy you weren't eating lasagna when you read it.
Unless you were.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 2:23 PM PDT
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got me....went immediately to scanning post haste.
alaska A residing in colorado.
by ak_A on
Oct 24, 2008 6:47 PM PDT
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So I shouldn't be wondering how
Beane is gonna talk the Twins into trading Morneau for Ellis straight up?
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 2:22 PM PDT
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although he prevents 15 or so runs per year, he costs the offense at least 15 runs per year for his ineptness… was that taken into consideration?
The Not-So-Casual Fan
by rktse on
Oct 24, 2008 12:36 PM PDT
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Really?
Mark Ellis costs the offense at least 15 runs per year? I’d like to see what mental gymnastics make you think that, going forward, he’s 15 runs worse than average.
Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.
by salb918 on
Oct 24, 2008 12:41 PM PDT
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he may not be a great offensive player
but he’s not that bad. 15 runs? I don’t think so.
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 12:44 PM PDT
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Neifi Perez averages about to -20. Ellis is nowhere near putting up Neifian numbers.
by danmerqury on
Oct 24, 2008 12:48 PM PDT
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so you're saying he's worse?
I don’t know who you’re talking about. “Neifi Perez” doesn’t ring a bell. What team is he on?
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 1:20 PM PDT
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I don't think he's playing anymore.
Which is probably a good thing for all teams involved.
by whiteshoes40 on
Oct 24, 2008 1:36 PM PDT
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I'm still confused.
It’s really easy to do that to me these days.
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 2:13 PM PDT
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"These" days.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 2:16 PM PDT
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before I got addicted to AN, it wasn't nearly as easy to confuse me.
now I’m confused at least twice daily. I think it’s become 67marquez’s and Waddellconseco’s hobby to confuse me as much as they can. XP
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 2:28 PM PDT
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Only on days I am not needing a challenge.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 2:29 PM PDT
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A "Staturday" post is generally the wrong place to be if you don't want to be confused.
(Speaking for myself, too, of course.)
Ray: "How fun is it to be up here playing in the Big Leagues?"
Gio: "It's *SUPER* fun!!!"
by Poppy on
Oct 24, 2008 2:29 PM PDT
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Seriously
I sent this to my smarter siblings, and now they hate me, and find me stupider than ever.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 2:31 PM PDT
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Your siblings are MaEl h8rz?
Ray: "How fun is it to be up here playing in the Big Leagues?"
Gio: "It's *SUPER* fun!!!"
by Poppy on
Oct 24, 2008 2:34 PM PDT
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is that possible?
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 2:38 PM PDT
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Oh no not at all
It was tough for them to follow. They’re even more old-school than me. They still think RBI’s are important.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 2:38 PM PDT
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RBI's are only important in actual games
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 2:43 PM PDT
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Also important
in RBI per RBI Opportunity ratings (although no one actually tracks that, but it would be interesting to see.)
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
by DMOAS on
Oct 24, 2008 2:59 PM PDT
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Here ya go ...
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=ellisma01&t=b
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 3:09 PM PDT
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So if I'm reading this correctly
he was slightly below average in bring runners in. For someone who supposedly had a horrible offensive year, that doesn’t seem too bad. I’m sure there’d be a better/more accurate way to break that down (weighting where the runners on, i.e. guy on 3rd more in total opportunities, guy on 1st more in RBIs), but to me that would be a very good place to start as a gauge for offensive performance. Not an end all/ above all sort of stat, but just one of handful that should be more closely followed. Straight RBI makes no sense because you can get 200 RBIs in 1000 attempts and not be as good as the guy with a 85 in 250 attempts.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
by DMOAS on
Oct 25, 2008 4:43 AM PDT
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Yes and no ...
while in principle, looking at success in bringing guys in has merit, in practice, you’d be getting down to pretty small sample sizes and the odds would be that the difference in performance in that stat (relative to what you’d expect) would be due to random chance, not real skill.
But more complete stats like what you’re describing do exist. Check out http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1443&position=2B, specifically the stats that include LI (Leverage Index) in the Win Probability section.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 26, 2008 5:04 PM PDT
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Yeah, that's what I'm doing here, too...
Fun party, though. Want some guacamole?
Ray: "How fun is it to be up here playing in the Big Leagues?"
Gio: "It's *SUPER* fun!!!"
by Poppy on
Oct 24, 2008 2:35 PM PDT
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Fuck you, AN 3.0
Ray: "How fun is it to be up here playing in the Big Leagues?"
Gio: "It's *SUPER* fun!!!"
by Poppy on
Oct 24, 2008 2:36 PM PDT
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What kind of party did I wander into?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 2:37 PM PDT
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"Shit if this is gonna' be that kind of party,
I’m gonna’ stick my {Blank} in the mashed potatos"
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
by 5Aces on
Oct 24, 2008 2:52 PM PDT
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I've never understood toe fetishes
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 2:54 PM PDT
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{Blank} = ?
My guesses:
1. CGV
2. BaNnInG wAnD
3. Spoon
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 2:54 PM PDT
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1. would be correct
although I guess 2. could be an AN euphemism for it as well.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
by 5Aces on
Oct 24, 2008 2:59 PM PDT
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There are no spoons on AN.
Only sporks.
Ray: "How fun is it to be up here playing in the Big Leagues?"
Gio: "It's *SUPER* fun!!!"
by Poppy on
Oct 24, 2008 3:21 PM PDT
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Guacamole?!?! Awesome!!!
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 2:37 PM PDT
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normally I wouldn't come, but I saw the name Mark Ellis...
it’s very rare that I resist something with his name in the title. Especially when it’s about something good.
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 2:34 PM PDT
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Yeah, that's what I'm doing here, too...
Fun party, though. Want some guacamole?
Ray: "How fun is it to be up here playing in the Big Leagues?"
Gio: "It's *SUPER* fun!!!"
by Poppy on
Oct 24, 2008 2:35 PM PDT
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Guacamole?!?! Awesome!!
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 2:36 PM PDT
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Guac this way.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 2:39 PM PDT
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Fridays, or Saturdays?
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Oct 24, 2008 2:16 PM PDT
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neifi perez
The Real Chase
“Neifi Perez has a chance to become arguably the single worst hitter in baseball history.”
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Oct 25, 2008 3:02 PM PDT
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Wow
Those of you who say, “but he hit .233 last year!” will be subject to Nico and his goat. Staturdays are for intelligent discussion, and if you can’t keep up then I’d rather you not participate.
"However, at Elias, I think they keep track of the amount of sunflower seeds spit in a dugout each night." - Brad Ziegler, 8/7/08
by doctorK on
Oct 24, 2008 12:49 PM PDT
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It gets frustrating around here.
sal decided to go with the more direct approach this time.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 2:18 PM PDT
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There is nothing wrong with pointing out his ineptness offensively.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 2:35 PM PDT
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There is, however, something wrong with arguing that he's offensively inept.
He’s roughly average.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 2:40 PM PDT
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Ellis posted at .266 EqA last season
Sounds pretty average to me.
"However, at Elias, I think they keep track of the amount of sunflower seeds spit in a dugout each night." - Brad Ziegler, 8/7/08
by doctorK on
Oct 24, 2008 2:42 PM PDT
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But there are several EQAs...
Each page on BP seems to produce a different EQA for each player. On their main EQA page, they have Ellis’ EQA over the past 4 years as:
Year Ellis Avg-2B 2005 .291 .261 2006 .242 .254 2007 .268 .259 2008 .258 .264
The league average numbers include playing time by all players, not just regular 2B. So being better than league average doesn’t necessarily mean being better than the average starter. It also doesn’t include league quality adjustments, which would bump Ellis up a bit.
by Danny on
Oct 24, 2008 3:54 PM PDT
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Because EQA can be adjusted for one season or for all-time
by thejd44 on
Oct 24, 2008 11:38 PM PDT
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If only it were that simple...
What was Mark Ellis’ EQA in 2007?
His DT card says his “season” EQA was .276 and his “all-time” EQA was .282
His PECOTA card says his EQA was .284.
And the league EQA page says his EQA was .268.
It’s confusing, but I think only the league page is centered with .260 as league average.
by Danny on
Oct 25, 2008 11:47 AM PDT
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Hmm, interesting
I could be wrong here, but isn’t PECOTA a projection page? Was that their projection for his 2008 season?
by thejd44 on
Oct 25, 2008 11:23 PM PDT
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Good thought, but no
The PECOTA cards also have the player’s stats for the previous three seasons, which is where I pulled the data from.
His 2008 projection was a .273 EQA, FWIW.
by Danny on
Oct 26, 2008 1:53 PM PDT
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By average or in other words not good,
I mean inept.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 2:42 PM PDT
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Your dictionary hates you
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 2:43 PM PDT
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So does salb.
A lot.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 2:44 PM PDT
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I don't dislike Mark Ellis at all I just think,
that we could have someone from within the organization play second base, for the minimum contract, and spend this money in another area. Hopefully at first base or shortstop as people like Nico have been talking about.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 2:51 PM PDT
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I'll give you a chance
Which FA SS or 1B would you prefer at $5 million in 2009?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 2:52 PM PDT
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My point is adding that 5 million to our other money available,
in order to put together a more lucrative offer towards Giambi or Furcal.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 2:54 PM PDT
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$5 million on Ellis
will not impede the A’s ability to sign either Giambi or Furcal.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 2:58 PM PDT
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Furcal made 15 million this year,
if you are so confident that we have this much money to throw around, screw furcal lets use that 5 million for Teixeira.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 3:02 PM PDT
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The A's could (probably) fit Tex in budget
Even after signing Ellis.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 3:35 PM PDT
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Furcall made $13 million this year
But let’s not continue to let facts get in the way of your argument.
Why do some people insist on getting their intellectual ass handed to them?
by thejd44 on
Oct 24, 2008 11:39 PM PDT
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Cots says $13 million
Got a link handy to your referrence source?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 11:47 PM PDT
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I just check cots and it said 13 million,
I was on espn and checked there, don’t know who is right but I’m guessing it is cots, I was just going of off the number I had.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 11:50 PM PDT
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ESPN's number doesn't work
Furcal signed a 3 year deal for $39 million. He got a $5 million signing bonus but there aren’t any details as to how that might have been spread out over the length of the contract. There’s supposed to be a $4 million payment due in January, 2009.
Baseball-Referrence says Furcal earned $22,445,704 during his first 2 seasons in LA. If those numbers are correct then the Dodgers owe Furcal $16,554,296. That isn’t the number ESPN is showing on their website. Plus I seriously doubt the Dodgers are going to pay Furcal the $4 million they owe him prior to January.
Since ESPN couldn’t find it’s ass with either hand in spite of the fact their butt cheeks are keeping their ears warm, and they say the Dodgers aren’t paying Chan Ho Park a dime, I’d stick with Cots’ numbers.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 25, 2008 12:02 AM PDT
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Agreed a 100% on that point grover
Keeping Ellis at that price is remarkable and absolutely vital in keeping 2nd base properly warm till the next young gun is ready to take over.
by mrod on
Oct 25, 2008 1:04 PM PDT
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Average, not good, and inept
Are not all the same thing. At least not by any typical defintion of the word.
You can’t just invent definitions for terms and then argue that those terms describe somebody.
by thejd44 on
Oct 24, 2008 11:41 PM PDT
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I think thejd's argument is faroplaxl
I dare you to disagree with me.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 11:53 PM PDT
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I can't believe you went there.
How stratensbarging.
Seriously man. Wow.
by mikev on
Oct 25, 2008 8:34 AM PDT
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You take that back this instant
sobgnozzle
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 26, 2008 12:47 AM PDT
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You've got to remember JD is a comedian.
by mattman on
Oct 26, 2008 3:58 PM PDT
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My real reaction to this post
1. Snickering
2. “WTF?”
3. Giggling
4. Contemplating a legitmate response
5. Rereading, more “WTF?”
6. Going with this response.
Also, I have done stand-up a couple times. How did you know?
by thejd44 on
Oct 26, 2008 4:34 PM PDT
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I watched the youtube clip,
by the way good job, thought it was pretty good.
by mattman on
Oct 26, 2008 6:17 PM PDT
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Amen
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on
Oct 24, 2008 12:19 PM PDT
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For the record
The A’s do need more offense, but they should focus on adding offense at positions that consider defense to be a secondary concern like 1st base, LF and DH.
The A’s allowed 690 runs last year, preventing runs was not the problem. The fact that they only scored 646 runs, their lowest total in a non-strike year since 1979, was a problem.
I’m glad Ellis is back and at such a team friendly rate. I think any projection that has Ellis being a league average hitter over the next two seasons is a little optimistic but I’m willing to try a non-negative perspective for the sake of MaEL.
Oh yeah.
I still hate Crosby.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 12:26 PM PDT
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Only if you assume we can't improve our defense
Scoring 646 runs is fine if you only allow 500.
I think the better point is that it is probably more efficient to improve our offense than our defense, but on an individual level I would still take a player with more wins above replacement than the person we have regardless of whether they are Ellis-like or Cust-like.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 12:31 PM PDT
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I think it's safe to assume ...
that they’re not going to improve the team’s defense by 190 runs next year …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 12:33 PM PDT
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Me too
I would certainly be surprised if there’s another Ellis out there who has such great defense that they’re a huge improvement over whoever we have at the position.
If there is one, though, we should sign him in a heartbeat.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 12:37 PM PDT
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Once upon a time, maybe
Doesn’t seem that way anymore.
Just wait around 3 years until Carlos Gomez gets non-tendered…
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 24, 2008 9:28 PM PDT
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3 years from now Gomez will be an All-Star
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 9:31 PM PDT
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Hah
Tell me another one. Next thing you know, someone will be saying they think Tim Alderson is a better pitching prospect than Brett Anderson.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 24, 2008 9:33 PM PDT
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I know you doubt Gomez
And it will be another year before he’ll prove you wrong, but he will and I just want you to know it’ll be OK. People will still love you.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 9:41 PM PDT
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Carlos Gomez will be a fantastic 4th outfielder in 3 years
by thejd44 on
Oct 24, 2008 11:41 PM PDT
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It's good to know Paul won't be alone
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 11:43 PM PDT
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i'm bookmarking this thread
and i’ll go with gomez being a 4th OF and anderson >> alderson.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Oct 25, 2008 3:29 PM PDT
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over 162 games without extra innings
that’s a 3.09 team ERA. A’s had a 3.08 in 1989.
That would be pretty damn awesome. Pythag of 646/500 is 103 wins.
"This is Rickey, calling on behalf of Rickey."
by scatterbrian on
Oct 24, 2008 12:44 PM PDT
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How about we deal with more realistic numbers?
If Mark Ellis is one of the best defenders in baseball, and we’re saying it’s a stretch to say he does more than save 15 runs with his glove, then a defensive substitute at say SS could only be expected to save another 15 runs. And that’s assuming that this new SS is average with the bat (so he doesn’t cost the A’s any runs) and is one of the best defensive SS in the game.
We could maybe do this again at 3B, after that, you run into a lot of logistical problems trying to upgrade with the best defenders in baseball. So even optimistically, an improved A’s defense could save maybe 30 runs next year. Meanwhile, the average numbers of runs scored in the AL last year was 775. Why not try to improve on the team’s ability to score more runs? The offense was horrible in 2008, that needs to change in 2009 and beyond if the A’s are going to win more games.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 1:10 PM PDT
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If he's average with the bat ...
then he’d be earning the A’s runs, relative to the guy he’s replacing both with the stick and the glove …
And SSs have more opportunities and, thus, can realistically save or cost a team more total runs on defense …
But the A’s had the 4th best defensive efficiency in baseball this year …
Based on win shares, if you swapped out the A’s player for the best player in the league, we’d go from:
C Suzuki >> Suzuki : +0
1b Barton >> Overbay : +2.6
2b Ellis >> Pedroia : +.9 (playing time)
3b Hannahan >> Longoria : +.2
SS Crosby >> Cabrera : +2.7
OF Cust, Gonzalez, Sweeney >> Young, Upton, Hunter : +7.4
(A’s backups were included in the starter’s total)
That’s a total of 13.8 win shares, which translates to about 45 runs by going to the best defense possible.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 1:33 PM PDT
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Let me know when you figure out how to add Longoria and Upton
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 1:39 PM PDT
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Right
My point was not “screw offense lets make the defense better.” It was “there’s no reason to avoid further defensive improvements if it makes us better at a position.”
For example, I’d still want Overbay over someone with a lesser improvement over Barton but who was pure offense.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 2:20 PM PDT
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Really? Suzuki is the best defending catcher in the league?
Wow.
by danmerqury on
Oct 24, 2008 1:53 PM PDT
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According to win shares ...
but fielding stats for catchers are to be taken with a very, very large grain of salt …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 2:27 PM PDT
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Ellis had a .248 BABIP last year,
lowest of his career. Average BABIP is generally .290 (Ellis’s career BABIP is .2904), so you have to figure Ellis will not be as bad unlucky as he was last year.
"This is Rickey, calling on behalf of Rickey."
by scatterbrian on
Oct 24, 2008 12:26 PM PDT
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Not completely luck.
All those popups count as BIP, but the average BABIP on a popup is like 0.01.
Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.
by salb918 on
Oct 24, 2008 12:34 PM PDT
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Hopefully the number of popups will decrease next year.
Since they’ve gotten the shoulder problem fixed, that should improve his swing somewhat. Or maybe I’m just making that up. He should work on his swing, though. That should fix some problems.
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 12:38 PM PDT
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His LD% was his best since 2003 ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 12:41 PM PDT
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yikes
"This is Rickey, calling on behalf of Rickey."
by scatterbrian on
Oct 24, 2008 12:45 PM PDT
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So more LDs and pop ups = less GB/FB
It looks like the negative effect of a pop up greatly outweighs the positive effect of a line drive. This makes sense, too. Plenty of LDs are caught. Very few pop ups turn into hits.
Looks like the bad luck + bad hitting outweighed the good hitting.
by thejd44 on
Oct 24, 2008 11:43 PM PDT
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Cutting Ellis's popups down to his prior career rate makes less of a difference than you would think
It’s only about 20 balls in play, which is about six base hits (assuming a baseline non-popup BABIP of .300), or not even enough to raise his average to .250.
As far as I can tell, most of it really was just bad luck.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 24, 2008 9:37 PM PDT
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maybe Ellis needs to do pushups after popups
like Willie Mays Hayes…
"This is Rickey, calling on behalf of Rickey."
by scatterbrian on
Oct 26, 2008 6:39 PM PDT
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That title should be AN's tagline.
Although that might be copying LL a bit too much. We could go with “MaEl is ours, and you can’t have him”… wait, that doesn’t solve the copying problem either. Oh well.
by whiteshoes40 on
Oct 24, 2008 12:28 PM PDT
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you'll come up with something eventually.
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 12:39 PM PDT
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Speaking of coming up with something.
If you are looking for real QOTM’s, this post is already littered with them.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 1:41 PM PDT
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where?
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 2:05 PM PDT
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In grover's house.
"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL
by oblique on
Oct 24, 2008 2:06 PM PDT
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can someone get them for me, then?
I’m lazy.
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 2:13 PM PDT
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I'm not allowed to comment
Staturdays are for intelligent discussion, and if you can’t keep up then I’d rather you not participate.
"The Athletics at Fremont" is soooooooo bad
by ArakSOT on
Oct 24, 2008 12:36 PM PDT
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You just commented.
Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.
by salb918 on
Oct 24, 2008 12:40 PM PDT
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well that was my last one
"The Athletics at Fremont" is soooooooo bad
by ArakSOT on
Oct 24, 2008 12:49 PM PDT
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what about this one?
Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.
by salb918 on
Oct 24, 2008 12:51 PM PDT
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Will you quit encouraging him?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 12:52 PM PDT
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While everything you are saying is true ...
and the Ellis deal is fantastic — the desire to add offense is an entirely rational one. Improving on replacement or worse performances is a lot easier and more cost efficient than improving the same amount relative to average or better performances. The team defense and pitching were already good — so improving on them is going to be a lot more difficult.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 12:38 PM PDT
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This is true.
Given where the A’s are, it is certainly easier to improve offensively. However, it’s worth noting that the same players provide both offense and defense, so an easy-to-make offensive “upgrade” is only an upgrade if the defense is a wash.
Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.
by salb918 on
Oct 24, 2008 12:41 PM PDT
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Agreed ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 12:44 PM PDT
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but what if the defense is a Wash?
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Oct 24, 2008 1:20 PM PDT
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I'm afraid we'll have to settle for it being a Gallego
"This is Rickey, calling on behalf of Rickey."
by scatterbrian on
Oct 24, 2008 1:53 PM PDT
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not that there's anything wrong with that ...
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Oct 24, 2008 2:17 PM PDT
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Yay-go! my Gallego?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 2:25 PM PDT
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Byrnesian.....
This is a great post for many reasons, but the use of the adjective (?) Byrnesian, was absolutely fantaxtic! I think I’ll try to incorporate it into my everyday lexicon! :)
Tear down Mount Davis!
by polytician on
Oct 24, 2008 12:43 PM PDT
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Usually I use Byrnesian for absolutely atrocious outfield play
by thejd44 on
Oct 24, 2008 11:44 PM PDT
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Be careful
FoolshGame is around here somewhere. He might hunt you down!
by Blez on
Oct 25, 2008 10:38 AM PDT
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Excellent Staturday article, again.
As if I needed another reason to love my unicorn.
by danmerqury on
Oct 24, 2008 12:43 PM PDT
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am i the only one who thinks it is Friday? Why the heck have i been at work all day? :(
by chri5 on
Oct 24, 2008 1:24 PM PDT
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If you think it's Friday, salb918 hates you and finds you stupid
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Oct 24, 2008 1:28 PM PDT
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Let's be honest
Salb already thinks we’re stupid. Whether or not he hates us depends on his mood, which is influenced by his own whimsy, his child’s willingness to let Daddy sleep at night, his wife’s willingness to let him stay up an extra 7.2 minutes, the overall level of whining from Red Sox fans, the number of his radio pre-set stations that are discussing Tom Brady’s knee and whether or not he can find a clean pair of padded socks to help him feel taller.
In short, we’re screwed.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 1:38 PM PDT
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Nice.
In short, we’re screwed.
If I don't comment on your comment how will you know you are completely wrong? -Rocktopus
by pam5981 on
Oct 24, 2008 1:42 PM PDT
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Gee
I figured that would have gone over your head.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 1:56 PM PDT
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Chances are, it went over his.
Am I allowed, or is there an inner circle?
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 2:01 PM PDT
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I almost said
That’s a question for salb’s wife.
But that would be wrong.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 2:11 PM PDT
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Never stopped you before.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 2:17 PM PDT
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I'm just impressed by the 7.2 minutes part
I’m way more efficient…
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 2:22 PM PDT
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"efficient"
If I don't comment on your comment how will you know you are completely wrong? -Rocktopus
by pam5981 on
Oct 24, 2008 2:24 PM PDT
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That's a little mean
Saying Salb’s wife has never stopped me. Please, show some decorum.
This is a family website.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 2:23 PM PDT
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What's mean
is how the likes of me and #14fan turned Sal’s wonderful post into a game thread. Don’t worry; we’ll leave when the rest of the smart people show up.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 2:45 PM PDT
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hey!!! that's not nice!!
what did I do??
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 2:56 PM PDT
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Sorry, I guess I'm being, um, mean.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 2:58 PM PDT
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Don't start that.
mikev might get mad at you.
39 remarkable innings.
by ZigFan31 on
Oct 24, 2008 3:02 PM PDT
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please say he's not here.
Glad you are, though!
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 3:04 PM PDT
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a little bit!
I forgot that that was your other hobby.
hobbies: annoy, confuse, and be mean to #14Fan.
Did I miss any?
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 3:03 PM PDT
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STUPID AN 3.0!
that didn’t end up where I wanted it!!
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 3:03 PM PDT
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That covers it.
Except I am rarely mean. And since I missing tomorrow’s thread, thought I’d make up for it now.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 3:09 PM PDT
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We will miss you.
39 remarkable innings.
by ZigFan31 on
Oct 24, 2008 3:10 PM PDT
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I was wondering how this post accumulated so many comments so quickly.
I should’ve known it had something to do with you and your ilk.
by whiteshoes40 on
Oct 24, 2008 3:11 PM PDT
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whose ilk?
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 3:12 PM PDT
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Got ilk?
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 3:13 PM PDT
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is it impossible for you to answer anything directly?
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 3:13 PM PDT
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am I included in that ilk?
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 3:15 PM PDT
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I'll stay out of it.
it’s safer.
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 3:18 PM PDT
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no, no, no
At short, we’re screwed.
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Oct 24, 2008 2:09 PM PDT
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We've taken it in the shorts, at short, for years
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 2:13 PM PDT
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we should have sold short
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Oct 24, 2008 2:16 PM PDT
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That would be the long and the short of it.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on
Oct 24, 2008 2:19 PM PDT
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before he sold us out, repeatedly
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 2:20 PM PDT
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Taking it in the shorts at short makes our seasons short.
I expect someone to improve upon that… shortly.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 2:23 PM PDT
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Well, won't be me
I was trying to go low and away with a new tangent
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 2:27 PM PDT
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is it possible the defensive stats
just aren’t that good and were looking at an all-field, no-hit 2nd basemen who, in theory, should deliver those win shares but in reality won’t?
I don’t know anything about defense metrics so please don’t go all postal on me. I’m just bringing up a point I have a question about.
I like Ellis and it’s a good PR move. I could see the media lambasting the A’s for another free agent loss.
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on
Oct 24, 2008 1:10 PM PDT
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A fair question
Hopefully no one eats you alive.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 1:11 PM PDT
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thanks grover!
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on
Oct 24, 2008 1:29 PM PDT
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It's possible ...
but UZR, RZR, Rate2, Fielding Percentage and everything else out there all agree that he’s great and that he’s been consistently great. I mean, it’s also possible that global warming isn’t largely caused by human influence and it’s impossibly to definitively prove otherwise, but Mark Ellis is a hell of a defensive player.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 1:36 PM PDT
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So we have so problems with our defensive, but major offensive problems.
Now because of that lets go sign a guy that will improve our defense and hurt our offense, I strongly question that logic.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 2:40 PM PDT
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Which team is better?
A: Scores 646 gives up 690
B: Scores 660 gives up 715
C: Scores 640 gives up 675
I’ll give you a hint, it isn’t B.
Now, whether there is a player who could improve our defense enough to make a significant impact is an issue, and it is almost certainly true that it is easier (therefore better) to score more runs, each decision should be made to find a player who has a better differential, not just a player who is the best offensive talent.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 2:45 PM PDT
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Signing Mark Ellis isn't the difference of 35 or even 25 runs,
not only do the stats suggest this isn’t the case, but bringing in another player who plays average defense will create a team with not such a gap of defensive capability, but warrants a major impact offensively.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 2:49 PM PDT
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Let me see if I can parse that
I think you’re saying:
1. Ellis’ defense is average
2. Average defenders who can’t hit are bad
3. The A’s need more offense
My response:
1. Strongly disagree
2. Agree
3. Agree, but only because it’s likely the most efficient way to improve our pythag
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 2:52 PM PDT
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I have witnessed the glove of Mark Ellis just as much as you,
I know that he is a great defensive second baseman. I just don’t think it is worth it to spend this much on a great defender/average ( or in my opinion slightly below) average hitter. I’d like to see this second base spot be filled within the organization and use the money elsewhere.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 2:57 PM PDT
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filled with who? Pennington?
There isn’t anybody in the organization right now who’s ready to take over full time. Patterson is completely terrible, Pennington isn’t bad, but needs more time…. who were you thinking of? I can’t think of anybody. Yes, I’m biased, but I still don’t think we have anybody right now.
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 3:01 PM PDT
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More to the point
I don’t think Pennington would be average offensively. I know he wouldn’t be short-list best defender in baseball.
$5M is a steal here.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 3:02 PM PDT
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Well we suffer for a year with Pennington and Patterson,
then put cardenas in the year after that. Meanwhile we have signed so key free agents like furcal and giambi. Pennington ends up being the worst player in our lineup, ohh well.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 3:06 PM PDT
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do you have a grudge against Ellis or something?
This doesn’t seem like a spectacular plan.
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 3:11 PM PDT
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But why suffer with a AAA player
When a star can be had so cheaply?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 3:11 PM PDT
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If you assume that Ellis' bat will bounce back to average as his luck evens out ...
which I do, Giambi isn’t actually better than Ellis at this point in his career …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 3:15 PM PDT
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Giambi was be pretty terrible then,
because you are looking at the 21st ranked second baseman in the league offensively.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 3:18 PM PDT
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And the best defensively -- that's the whole point ...
also, you seem to have missed the title of the comment … which is understandable, since it’s not like it’s in bold, or anything … oh, wait …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 3:29 PM PDT
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Yes, I did read it and by bounce back you mean,
hit 30 home runs and drive it 90 and hit .275? Don’t see it happening, sorry.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 3:30 PM PDT
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Bouce back to do something he's never done ...
no, that would be a dumb thing for me to suggest.
I’m thinking something like .270/.330/.430 and those offensive numbers, combined with his defensive value would make him a clearly better player than Giambi.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 3:37 PM PDT
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But devo
A .760 OPS makes you a shitty baseball player. Ellis sucks.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 3:38 PM PDT
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If I knew that Ellis was going to have that type of year,
I would be willing to pay close to 8 million.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 3:39 PM PDT
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Ok, so then 5 million is fine if he has what kind of year?
Seriously, what kind of OPS do you need from Ellis to like this deal?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 3:42 PM PDT
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If I knew for sure what kind of year players were going to have ...
I’d be making many millions, making sure the A’s won the World Series every year.
So what kind of year do you know Jason Giambi or Rafael Furcal are going to have?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 3:49 PM PDT
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on the A's?
they could easily combine for 150-200….. days on the DL
by AsFanInLA on
Oct 24, 2008 3:56 PM PDT
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I agree...
and I think that Giambi and Furcal have a better chance of having a good year than does Ellis. We will have to see though.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 6:24 PM PDT
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Let me see if I can Farsi that
موردرا T isn تفاوت Signing مارک ۳۵ نیست یاحتی ۲۵ بیرون روی ،نه تنهاایالت این
،اماواردکردن بازیکنی دیگری پیشنهادبکنندکه بازی می کند
Probably about as easy to understand to an Iranian as the original post was to me.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 24, 2008 9:45 PM PDT
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would that total runs scored minus total runs allowed
over the whole season constituted the criteria for determining who got to play in the postseason!!
by OaklandSi on
Oct 24, 2008 3:20 PM PDT
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It does
Not the entire criteria, but like 90% of it.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 24, 2008 9:42 PM PDT
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Resigning Mark Ellis ...
in theory is a wash, both offensively and defensively — though, given the bad offensive luck he had this season, he’s probably an improvement on offense …
But letting Ellis go would drastically hurt our defense, so whatever we used that $6mil for would have to be as much better on offense as Ellis is on defense, which is not something you’ll likely find for $6m …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 3:13 PM PDT
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I agree...I'm more curious
about the defensive metrics + offensive metrics = win shares equation. I feel like the defensive metrics need to not equal offensive metrics when evaluating overall. Does that make sense?
Let’s remove Ellis and how he’s the best option available and all that. Let’s just look at the fundamental equation.
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on
Oct 24, 2008 3:18 PM PDT
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It might make sense ...
if I understand what you’re saying …
You’re getting at the relative relationship between offensive and defensive value? Most combined metrics give offense about triple the potential value (generally maxing out at about +100 runs, 10 wins or 30 win shares relative to replacement, depending on how you are accounting, while defense generally tops out at +30/3/9). Is that right? I don’t know — it’s hard to say — but a lot of time has been spent figuring these things out and they are probably pretty good guesses — and, keep in mind, they could just as easily be underestimating defensive value as over estimating it.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 3:35 PM PDT
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sounds good to me...but I'm not stat guy
I just make drugs in the lab (I’m a chemist)!
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on
Oct 24, 2008 4:05 PM PDT
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I've actually never seen anyone who consistently rates so well in every single metric
as Ellis. Even the crappy metrics like Range Factor and FRAA love him.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 24, 2008 9:39 PM PDT
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A 2B who hits 15 homers a season isn't "no hit"
And not only do all the metrics agree Ellis is great, so do the Fans who voted in Tango’s poll.
by thejd44 on
Oct 24, 2008 11:46 PM PDT
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"Ellis is positively average with the bat"?
So … he’s +0, rather than -0?
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Oct 24, 2008 1:21 PM PDT
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I don't think you should be allowed to comment, either
"The Athletics at Fremont" is soooooooo bad
by ArakSOT on
Oct 24, 2008 1:40 PM PDT
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Ceci n'est pas une comment
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Oct 24, 2008 2:11 PM PDT
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I'd expect a regression
to +/- 0
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 2:24 PM PDT
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I think we can all agree MaEl is amazing with the glove
Hell, anyone who saw us running D’Angelo Jimenez for playoff games knows that. And every defensive stat pretty much agrees with that fact.
But are the stats really that accurate? Sal, you say that Ellie is a +15-20 run player based on defense. Have we really gotten to the point where defense is measured as accurately as offense? I can buy that with certain offensive stats we can tell how many “runs” a player is worth. We have offensive stats for every player going back to who knows when (1903 at the latest). That must be in the millions of AB’s. We can run studies and look back in history to see if a certain formula is within an acceptable sd to see if it will work.
With defensive stats, we’ve only begun to record them in the last 20ish years, and not with the same equipment on every field. Defense is a lot more subtle than offense too, and with many less opportunities. The average player gets about 4-5 PAs in a game, while they get 3-4 opportunities to make a play (obviously dependent on position; the SS will get more oppotrtunities than the RF) per game. It could be a good Staturday post to run through all the defensive metrics and tell all us laymen exactly how each work and give some personal preference (i.e. +/-, RZR, UZR, whatever).
And this is not to say I’m against using defensive stats. It’s the best we’ve got to measure what we used to consider impossible to measure. But I’m not inclined to mix and compare defensive stats with offensive ones. I am inclined to take the guy who’s a bit better defensively when the two player’s O is similar. And I’m inclined to take the guy who’s amazing defensively by pretty much all metrics over the 110 OPS+ masher who’s terrible defensively when I already have a good offense but iffy pitching and the two players play up the middle positions. But if its Dan Uggla vs. Mark Ellis, I probably will choose Uggla over Ellis because Uggla’s fielding has gone from slightly above average to below average according to he stats.
Ellis for his deal is obviously a bargain as his defense is god-like according to everything from one’s own eyes to every stat ever and he plays a defense-first position. Unless Ellie pulls a Kotsay, I love the deal. But I think Ian Kinsler and Dan Uggla are better 2b.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on
Oct 24, 2008 2:54 PM PDT
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All you Mark Ellis fans out there,
who would you rather have Mark Ellis or Dan Uggla.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 3:04 PM PDT
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Ellis.
No contest for me. I will always pick my unicorn.
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 3:05 PM PDT
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Looking at things objectively, and without bias, and blindness.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 3:07 PM PDT
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That's not possible for me.
With any other player, yes. With Ellis, no. If I tried to pick objectively, I’d probably still pick Ellis, because he’s cheaper.
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 3:09 PM PDT
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and better.
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 3:20 PM PDT
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ugla sucks
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on
Oct 24, 2008 3:47 PM PDT
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I will always pick my nose
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Oct 24, 2008 3:51 PM PDT
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There are some 2B better than Ellis
None of whom are going to play for Ellis’ salary.
Over the last two years, Ellis is top 10. So are Utley, Roberts, Kinsler, and Polonco.
I’d be fine having anyone on that list play for us at Ellis’ salary.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 3:08 PM PDT
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Noticel on that list,
Ellis is ranked better offensively than two other players.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 3:16 PM PDT
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And defensively bettern than everyone but Utley
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 3:19 PM PDT
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And this team is lacking an offense tremendously so...
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 3:22 PM PDT
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best to cripple the thing we're really good at?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 3:24 PM PDT
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A great way to look at your view of next season, right here.
We play tremendous defense and save two runs because of this great defense. We give up another 4-5 runs, because our pitching isn’t the best and can be volatile at times. We score 2-3 runs, and just like last year we have no offense and our team goes absolutely nowhere, just like last year. Is this what we want?
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 3:28 PM PDT
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But then aren't you saying
we won’t save those runs, so now we have given up 6-7 runs, and with the improved bat we found with the extra $ we are scoring 4-5? Seems pretty much the same. I’d rather we save the two runs, and try to find more offense in a position where we had a weak hitter and glove last year.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
by 5Aces on
Oct 24, 2008 3:31 PM PDT
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Ellis isn't saving us 2 runs a game,
he is saving us 15 a season, and I think we could bring in somebody who could save us 5 a season. So no this isn’t the case at all.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 3:33 PM PDT
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Sorry, was using your own words.
Next time I’ll try to put some thought into it.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
by 5Aces on
Oct 24, 2008 3:34 PM PDT
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Explain to me how Mark Ellis is going to save us 2 runs a game?
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 3:36 PM PDT
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"We play tremendous defense and save two runs because of this great defense."
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
by 5Aces on
Oct 24, 2008 3:37 PM PDT
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QOTM
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 24, 2008 9:49 PM PDT
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what exactly are you nominating?
AN 3.0 confuses me.
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 11:52 PM PDT
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Hence, the "up" button
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 25, 2008 12:40 AM PDT
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used it.
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 25, 2008 9:09 AM PDT
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Ok, well, it's the post at the top of your screen...
Sorry, was using your own words.
Next time I’ll try to put some thought into it.
“Camelot sure fell apart, didn’t it?”-Steve McCatty
by 5Aces on Oct 24, 2008 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 25, 2008 10:40 AM PDT
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I never used that button before
But i think I’m in love with it.
by thejd44 on
Oct 25, 2008 11:26 PM PDT
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Who?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 3:39 PM PDT
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Pennington projects to hit close to 30 runs below average next season
Even stipulating that he really is a +5 defender, something I’m highly suspicious of, and given that he plays second base, that’s basically replacement level. (Which makes sense, because when I think of the phrase “replacement level middle infielder”, I think of Cliff Pennington.)
Ellis is, as noted, about 4 wins better than that. 4 wins for $5 million is absurdly, almost unfairly cheap.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 24, 2008 9:57 PM PDT
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The offensive woes
don’t start and end with Ellis. All this animosity towards this signing should be directed towards fixing the Crosby/SS problem. Not at bringing back a player who has had success and is going to be valuable to have around while the infield prospect crop matures.
by RIPHalsey on
Oct 24, 2008 3:32 PM PDT
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We can still sign other players.
It’s not like signing Ellis was the only thing the A’s could do this offseaon. They can still fix pitching/offensive problems! and with your other plan, the A’s would still be going nowhere, because a Pennington/Patterson ruled 2b would not help this problem at all, because the offense from them would still be BAD. Do you just REALLY want Ellis off the team or something?
Awww… Unicorn's optimistic. And a cheeseball. That’s cute. ~Whiteshoes40
by #14fan on
Oct 24, 2008 3:33 PM PDT
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I'm not saying adding offense is bad
My dream free agent, after all, is still Dunn.
I am, however, saying that what matters for each player is their total runs created + runs saved. For the reasons 5Aces pointed out, your preference for runs created doesn’t make much sense.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Oct 24, 2008 3:43 PM PDT
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Ok-I'm glad someone got the point.
I thought I might be a bit too obtuse.
Its funny, I think a lot of us actually don’t disagree with mattman’s overall thought-that we need to focus more on offense this off season than defense. (Not that I should speak for him, but that’s the general idea I came away with.) I am not going to go out and pick up a Buddy Biancalan or Ray Oyler because we need to really work on making the D better.
But, when we have the option to get someone his is pretty much considered one of the best defensive players at an important defensive position, and we can have some hope that he rebounds from a bad year that may have been impacted by injury, and he is a fan favorite, and can do it for a very reasonable amount of money, it isnt a terrible idea.
{Can someone help me down? I don’t usually stand this high on a soapbox and I’m starting to get dizzy.}
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
by 5Aces on
Oct 24, 2008 3:51 PM PDT
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Keep in mind, those rankings are based on counting stats ...
and Ellis only played 3/4 of a season … about the same as Kinsler, btw, so both could be ranked much higher on the list.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 3:28 PM PDT
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Ellis and Uggla are comparable in value ...
But not at all comparable in cost …
So Ellis, definitely, it’s not even close.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 3:19 PM PDT
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I wasn't basing this on cost value, nothing.
Who do you think if a better baseball player period.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 3:20 PM PDT
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They are even ...
By value, I mean baseball value — not relative to cost.
I think they are even as baseball players, obviously Uggla brings more with the stick, while Ellis brings more with the glove and, overall, it’s more or less a wash.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 3:23 PM PDT
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Well according to this nifty spreadsheet that Salb has provided us,
it is very clear who you should be choosing.
by mattman on
Oct 24, 2008 3:31 PM PDT
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Which spreadsheet?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 3:40 PM PDT
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Never mind ...figured out what you're referring to ...
Okay, let me speak really slowly and hopefully you can figure this out.
1.) 2008 is bye bye for the A’s and Marlins. 2008 stats no count no more.
2.) Mark Ellis have bad luck in 2008 and mean defense guys catch too many of his hits. He do better in 2009.
That good good? Your brain figure out?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Oct 24, 2008 3:46 PM PDT
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Hang on
That’s a knee jerk reply to an arguement that clearly has the data to support it. If the 2008 stats don’t count towards the discussion, what are you basing your defense of Ellis on? He’s older and coming off an injury. We know thanks to the Mark-1 eyeball that Ellis is a great defender but his bat sucked last year and he’s never going to be an offensive force. Uggla isn’t a bad defender and has a 30 HR bat.
The entire point of salb’s arguement is that only when you look at the numbers (aka stats) do you truly see Ellis’ worth to the team. If you want to ignore the stats, then you need to come up with a convincing arguement that advocates Ellis above Uggla. A simple arguement would be the cost of acquiring Uggla in terms of prospects lost in a trade. Keeping Ellis is merely a matter of spending cash, a small amount of cash in this case, in order to keep intact the established talent level in Oakland. Depending on the cost for Uggla, it is very possible that letting Ellis go and trading away prospects to land the soon-to-be-ex-Marlin would cost the A’s more talent than they acquire.
Going caveman wasn’t called for.
And I’m done being the policeman on this topic. Back to making fun of Sal.
Who’s really, really short.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 4:26 PM PDT
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Thanks Grover.
Eveland rocks! Eveland rocks! Somewhere Drew Carey just smiled.
by miggyk2 on
Oct 24, 2008 4:27 PM PDT
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Mis-spell my name again
and I’ll rip you in half and eat your liver.
And no, I won’t be drinking chianti. I’ve found the ’06 Grgich Hills Merlot to go much more favorably with the liver, especially when you grill the meat over an open flame and add just a hint of Rosemary mixed with lemon juice.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 24, 2008 5:01 PM PDT
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