Projecting the Enemy: Rangers
On to the second in our four-part introductory series on what to expect in the AL West next year. The Rangers could be interesting, as they have a great offense that's dying for some pitching help. And they have pitching in the minors, but it's a ways off from the majors. John Sickels had a thread up on the Rangers not long ago-- it's interesting reading.
Once again, our task is to figure out what the Rangers figure to do with their team "as is," to provide a baseline to measure subsequent moves against. Let's roll!
C: Gerald Laird/Taylor Teagarden (-5 runs offense, 0 runs defense) A bit of editorializing on my part here, but it's unavoidable. The Rangers have 4 catchers. I think they'll pick Teagarden as the long-term solution and trade Saltalamacchia before his value completely evaporates. Laird is roughly a league average catcher. Teagarden may well be more than that in the long haul, but right now I don't think he is. His bat will drag down the offense a little.
1B: Chris Davis (+15 runs offense, -5 runs defense) I'm being generous with that defense mark, folks. Davis is apparently a horrendously poor third baseman, and even moving him to 1B which is much easier, he's probably well below average. That said, his offense is studly and figures to get better from here. Note: Once again, I'm projecting offense relative to the position. Chris Davis is about 25 runs better than a league average hitter, while the average 1B is about 10 runs better than the average hitter.
2B: Ian Kinsler (+25 runs offensively, -10 runs defensively) Another guy who should take up a second job in a slaughterhouse-- he's a butcher out there. Again, it doesn't matter enough to make him a bad player. What I'm trying to figure out is why a guy with 26 steals scores so poorly on fielding range. I wonder if he'd benefit from a positional change. BTW, off-topic, in case you're wondering why I think the A's need to keep Adrian Cardenas at all costs, it's because Kinsler is the guy he might eventually turn into.
SS: Michael Young (+10 runs offensively, -10 runs defensively) Young was pretty lousy at the plate this year, but he made up for it by being unusually effective with the glove (for him). I don't think either of those trends will continue; he should go right back to being his old overrated, vastly overpaid, good-offense-bad-defense-overall-average self.
3B: Hank Blalock (0 runs offensively, -5 runs defensively) I gotta be honest with you, I'm not sure what to put here. Blalock has been hurt for much of the last two seasons, although he's still pretty effective when he plays. But he's also getting pricey and the Rangers may not bring him back. Then there are the replacements... yuegh. Travis Metcalf is lame at best, and Ramon Vasquez has to be on the way out, right? Right? There is invariably a large element of guesswork in doing these, so take it up with Rangers management or God if you don't like this assessment.
LF: Nelson Cruz (+5 runs offensively, -5 runs defensively) Another questionable pick. Marlon Byrd was the best of the Rangers group this season, but he's 30 and probably won't be this good going forward. Cruz came up and just mashed the ball in September after a blisteringly hot season in AAA. He really did suck the last 3 years; his career OPS+ is still below 100. So I don't know what to make of him. I'd give him league average corner OF offense (about a 105 OPS+) but it easily could be 20 runs higher or lower. I haven't heard good things about his defense. Why am I giving the team +5 if I think Cruz is average? I think that because of the number of options the Rangers have here, that they will ultimately get plus offense out of the position.
CF: Josh Hamilton (+30 runs offensively, -10 runs defensively) Hamilton really needs to move to right field long-term. He's badly overstretched in center and I think he'd be much better in a corner where he can rely on his instincts rather than his speed (which is not outstanding). It might up him from +20 to +25 or better. That said, the guy has put up a high-800s OPS two years running. Hard to argue with that.
RF: David Murphy (0 runs offensively, 0 runs defensively) Ho-hum. Nothing to see here. Murphy is one of those guys you have to have, and really don't want to be paying more than a few million for. The Rangers aren't, so they're fine on that front.
DH: Max Ramirez (-10 runs offensively) I mentioned that I think Saltalamacchia is going to be dealt off. That leaves 3 catchers, and Ramirez is pretty clearly the worst defensively of the group. He can really hit, but it's going to take a little while for it to show up at the MLB level. Keep in mind that that -10 is accounting for a 15 run penalty for DHing, meaning that I actually like him to be a little better than league average with the stick next year, probably around a .780 OPS in Texas.
Just an overall comment before we move to pitchers-- this defense is f***ing terrible. No wonder their pitching looks bad. They were probably 50 runs below average this year, and it doesn't look like they'll be improving much next year, although perhaps the arrival of Julio Borbon and Elvis Andrus by 2010 will help balance things a little.
SP
Vicente Padilla (0 runs) Padilla hasn't been theoretically league average for a couple of years, but his numbers are really depressed by that horrifying defense, which has to be accounted for in every pitcher's numbers.
Kevin Millwood (-5 runs) This is why you don't give big contracts to pitchers just after they come off a fluky good season. He was weaker than Padilla this year and has had one good year since 2003. Incidentally, my brain thinks he and Jake Westbrook are the same player. I'm constantly confusing the two.
And here's where we get into nightmare-ville. I'm sort of assuming they go with the young "talent," but I'm not sure it matters that much.
Matt Harrison (-10 runs) Young, but not actually very good (at least not yet). Harrison is an extreme control specialist, but I don't think that's going to play very well in Texas where he's going to be gopherball-prone.
Eric Hurley (-10 runs) Hurley's another solid pitching prospect who's gotten some shouts from BA, but again his minor league numbers just don't predict that he'll be more than a mid-rotation guy and it will probably take him a year or two to settle into that role.
Scott Feldman (-15 runs) They might be better off going with Marty Feldman, since at least his creepy lazy eye might weird the hitters out enough to throw them off their game. Except, Marty Feldman is dead. Well, just adds to the creepiness, amirite?
Bullpen (-15 runs) The Rangers pen was, once you account for the park and that godawful defense, not that bad this year, and it'll probably be reinforced with some decent pitchers from the losers of the SP battle who will fill out the middle relief roles. Still, I'm not predicting anything particularly fantastic here.
Net: -30 runs, for a predicted record of 78-84. Within theoretical range of the Angels, but it's going to be tough with this kind of pitching and defense. They have a little money to spend, but not much; they can probably upgrade one position but I see no realistic way their predicted record is going to rise to better than 81 wins or so. The Angels are still the team to beat.
Next up: Mariners. Just to fill everyone's schadenfreude quota.
5 recs |
131 comments
Comments
Kinsler & Cardenas
So… you think Cardenas will turn into a defensive butcher at 2B. I’ll remember that the next time you mention how the A’s have played him at SS thus far.
Actually, this write up is a good arguement against the Rangers going out and signing Lowe. Just riffing here, maybe they should go after Oliver Perez, a guy with fly ball tendencies and lots of strike outs.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Oct 24, 2008 9:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That could have been phrased better
I was talking about his bat. I have no real information on which to base a comparison of their respective defensive skills.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 24, 2008 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blame your editor
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Oct 25, 2008 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand that you're responding to PT's estimation of the Rangers infield D ...
… but a fly ball pitcher in Arlington? Really?
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Oct 25, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think its a case of
damned if you do, damned if you dont. let your crappy infielders miss balls, or just let them go out of the park all together? At least Ollie can get the occasional strike out when necessary…Lowe just relies on that D
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 25, 2008 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
DIYD/DIYD
Exactly the phrase that was going through my head, too.
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Oct 25, 2008 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
there are 3 real pitching solutions:
1. improve your defense (andrus etc.)
2. get flyball pitchers to avoid your infield, then move your fences back (hurts your own offense)
3. get a darn good pitcher (unlikely in almost all cases, currently, unless they can undo the hamilton trade, or kidnap C.C. and hypnotize him into believing that Texas borders California and that steak is the new Tofu)
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 25, 2008 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is that you never know
when Ollie will get the strikeout.
I don’t disagree with the idea that they need a strikeout pitcher. I’m not convinced that Ollie is the guy. He’s pretty damn inconsistent. In results, and in mechanics.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Oct 26, 2008 12:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lots of pitchers are inconsistant or consistantly bad (or both...Daniel Cabrera anyone?)
that’s the reason why he’s not going to cost a total arm and a leg, just part of one. Yes, he’s inconsistent, but at least he has upside and can occasionally pitch like an ace. Signing him should depend on how much he’s going to cost, but I think he’d be better to have in that park than someone more consistent but less strikeout happy. Actually, I really don’t think it matters; either way the pitchers are going to get lit up in that ballpark unless they are the second coming of Johan, Harden, Peavy, etc.
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 26, 2008 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lefty SP though
As I recall, the ball carries best to RF.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Oct 25, 2008 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the key for them is Salty
No idea if he’ll ever live up to his hype or if he’ll he’ll even be healthy next year, but the guy’s only 23 years old.
The rangers may be able to net some serious pitching from him via trade, or if he actually performs up to his supposed potential we could be looking at a +20 run player, The rangers would then be free to grab pitching by trading Laird. Yankees/Marlins/Mets have been said to be interested.
If Salty breaks out we could be looking at an easy .500 team. The Angels would still be class of the division of course.
by stone_balzac on Oct 24, 2008 9:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
My Rangers GM move would be to trade Laird and just give it to the kids
Then again, I like watching good pitching so I’ll stay as far away from Arlington as I can.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 24, 2008 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where to start
Hamilton was a 5 defenviely in CF last year according to Bill James +/, Byrd 0, Murphy -5.
After Byrd got healthy he ended up playing more CF than Hamilton.
All would be above average in LF or RF defensively. All including Cruz with above average arm and range for corner OF
Davis grades out right at average at 1st according to James +/-. Blalock being the same
Kinsler was horrible at 2nd this year, but was ranked 9th the year before so no telling on him.
Young was surprisingly not as horrible as last year only being a -7 to rate out as the 23rd best SS.
Both Laird and Teagarden are considered above average at worse at C defensively and the 2 OPSed well over AL average for C of .714.
Davis will be the starting 3B unless Blalock miraculously gets a better shoulder this offseason. Davis is a average to below average 3B at best though,,,
DH No idea… Ramirez is an option, so is Bradley, so is Blalock if Texas gets a new SS or 3B, no idea…
Now to SP which is to call interesting in an understatement.
Padilla and Millwood are locks for top 2
Now for 3-5, Feldman won a job after this season’s excellent work (led the team in QS). That leaves 4 and 5. McCarthy, Hurley, and Harrison all have options, while Nippert and Feldman do not.
I would expect McCarthy and Harrison to get the nod with Nippert taking the longman role in the pen and spot 6th starter. That leaves Hurley in AAA with Hunter and eventually Feliz and Holland. Wont be a good year to face the AAA Texas team.
The pen should be suprising as well. Some how it looks like Jamey Wright is a Class B FA, so hes gone. Expect Frank Francisco to close, CJ Wilson and his repaired elbow and Benoit to set up, Rupe, Mardrigal, Gabbard (LH), Rheinicker (LH) and Nippert to fill out the pen. Should be pretty decenet if everybody comes back healthy. Another name to keep an eye on is the return of Outsaka after TJ as well.
Probably missing a few other things, but this is a start.
by laxtonto on Oct 24, 2008 10:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The team was 50 runs below average on defense this year
By your measurement, it’s average or better.
That’s patently absurd.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 24, 2008 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im sorry, all my data comes directly from Bill James online
The numbers that kill the defensive data for Texas are MY(trying to play through 2 different broken fingers) and Kinsler(tried to play through a sports hernia), Salty and, Ramon Vazquez , Metcalf, Duran, Laird , Davis as fill in’s at 3b.
It has nothing to do with Texas OF defense, or Laird or Teagarden behind the plate or 1st base. Having a hole at 3rb -7 SS and -15 2B and Salty throwing most SB attempts into CF will do that. Texas defensive #’s are severely skewed by the performance at 3rd when Blalock went down in the first month of the season.
Amazingly the Texas defense had the largest hit at any position in the MLB, at 3B with 6 different players attempting to play there with a aggregate of -35. Blalock for his carreer has been at worst a -3. Major difference.
Do the research before you claim something as “patently absurd”.
by laxtonto on Oct 24, 2008 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So for the record
Your argument is that Blalock is unlikely to play 3B (first post) but Blalock’s defensive ability should be used to calculate 3B (second post)?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 25, 2008 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry, did I just get lectured on my own fanpost that I should "do the research"?
I would add that you are putting far too much weight on small sample sizes. A lot of these players played multiple positions, further diluting what are already small samples of MLB defensive play from this season. (BTW, 5 plays in what appears to be 85 innings of play for Murphy is horrifyingly bad.) And you’re doing it with hitters too. For instance, Teagarden was overall horrible with the bat this year- it so happens that his handful of competent at-bats came in the majors, but a lucky couple of weeks is not anything substantial to go on. Gerald Laird has a career OPS+ of 79. Etc.
If you want to boot Murphy to 4th outfielder, that might add a few runs— Hamilton stays about the same overall moving to corner OF, Byrd might be 10 or 15 RAA in center. But that comes at the cost of playing a 30-year-old over younger players.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 25, 2008 1:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK
Can someone buzz the tech folks and tell them to get rid of this auto-strikethrough function? It never works correctly.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 25, 2008 1:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TeaGarden has a carrer Minor league OPS over .875
Had 2 different injuries last year in AAA. (One of the reasons why i would move him first, injury bug) One of the reasons for the Salty debacle with his random playing time forced by Teagarden being hurt, then playing with team USA..
Small sample sizes? The smallest sample size included would be the Blalock/Davis Debacle at 1st/3rd which for Blalock I referenced his career #’s instead. If Blalock can play 3B at league average or better, he should be able to maintain his league average at 1st.
As far as the discussing Blalock at 3rd, but he never may play there again, is a reference to the difference between any normal 3B and the junk Texas ran out there because of injury. Any league average or slightly worse(-15) 3B would reduce Texas run differential by 20 runs. To project a teams season by using the aggregate worse data, knowing that injury had the greatest effect skews your projection.
No other player mentioned played significantly at any other position than Davis/Blalock in the INF, besides the UT guys which where as far as I can see average at best.
In the OF, Byrd over 900 innings in the OF, Hamilton or 1200 innings and i purposely didn’t include Cruz # of the sample size. He is a +16 in right at 1200 innings for his carreer, and a +7 this year in his small sample size. Murphy is still a +10 in over 400 innings in RF, but i omitted him as well because of injury, just to temper my numbers instead of cherry picking the best ones.
As far as booting Murphy at the cost of youth, None of the Muprhy (27), Cruz (28), or Byrd(31) are really young anymore. I am at the point of treating Cruz/Murphy as hope one continues their offensive play. You hit, you get to play. The real question would be what happens if Texas instead starts Julio Borbon in CF as a true athletic plus defensive CF. Then the whole OF is a mess.
Speaking of that, would Texas and Oak every make a deal… OF for prospects?
And the auto-strike through thing just popped up last night…
by laxtonto on Oct 25, 2008 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still consider Cruz to be basically a "prospect"
in that he has under 2 years service time (ditto Murphy), while Byrd is a year away from becoming a free agent (I think… I’m assuming he didn’t spend time in the minors this year).
So the upside of expending playing time on them is much greater than the upside of spending it on Byrd.
I’d expect a Carlos Gomez-esque line from Borbon if they actually started him in the majors, so, uh, the A’s fan in me really hopes that happens.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 25, 2008 11:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The other side is that Byrd is borderline on class A/B FA at this point.
Is it better play a marginal older prospect or get the 1st round pick is the real question. With back to back top 3 drafts by BA, you take the pick in my eyes just because of the strength of their drafting.
The strange thing is that whatever Texas is doing on these odd FA they pick up off the garbage pile its working. Wright, Byrd, Bradley, Derosa, and Mathews Jr that i can think off all ended up being worth either an extra 1st rounder or a supplemental pick. A lot is park subjective with only 1 being a pitcher… (Maybe Elias needs to adjust their formula to be park neutral?)
That in it self is one of the things that really turned the Rangers farm system around. Extra 1st rounders and supplementals are a very easy way to bolster a system.
by laxtonto on Oct 26, 2008 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Elias format is ridiculously gameable
and yes, the fact that it’s not park adjusted is ludicrous. The A’s could sign any random relief pitcher and turn him into a pick (as long as he played last season— which is why the Foulke move was not so hot) and the Rangers can sign any random fourth outfielder and do so… seems like a real advantage for teams with extreme parks.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It sounds like extreme hitters parks would have the edge
With the up and down nature of bullpen stats just because of sample size, a player in a hitters park playing regularly would be easier to manipulate. With it being counting stat based for hitters, there is a definite bonus for hitters parks.
The real tricks seems to be being able positions that you know will be open for 2 years and finding players that are league average that can be exploited with 2 above average years in hitter friendly parks.
Boost value, then let them go and repeat…. Nice loop hole to exploit.
by laxtonto on Oct 26, 2008 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better to find hitters who had decent last seasons
and sign them to one-year contracts, a la Bradley.
Less risk that way. And yeah, it does seem to be more gameable for hitters’ parks.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that a few and far between option though
price goes up with one good year. Better value on turning Mathews Jr into 2 picks than Bradley…
Either way, kinda nice little loop hole that it looks like Texas has learned to exploit. I need to see who has had the most “free” picks from non home grown FA to see if this holds true
by laxtonto on Oct 26, 2008 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, keep in mind
Bradley is a very good baseball player (just made of glass). It isn’t “gaming the system” for him to be worth compensation.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 26, 2008 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good pitching is a must if they want to compete
year after year they fall off the grid because of bad pitching
and i dont think they are gonna be any better with the pitching unless they make a move for a good starter.
by Wreckonized on Oct 24, 2008 11:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post.
Now, it would be even more excellent if the A’s did not place third next season..
Some people on here rant about the A’s horrible offense, but I’d much rather be the A’s with a bad (but young) offense and excellent defense/pitching than the Rangers with a good (and kind of old/flukey) offense and TERRIBLE defense/pitching. Make no mistake, people, the Rangers are in a far, far worse position than the A’s going into next season.
by VORP is too nerdy on Oct 25, 2008 12:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree just becasue of where the talent of Texas coming through the minors is and what postions they play.
Look at it this way. Every part that is in question defensively for Texas SS (Andrus), 1B (Smoak), CF
(Borbon) in particular will all be replaced by premier defensive players coming through their system. All 3 will be at worse AA to start the season. All are considered league average or better offensively as well. Add to it Texas pitching Depth equals, or if not closely mirrors Oak depth right now.
Maybe I just don;t have enough faith in the Oak offensive prospects, but there is no real “super star” player offensively to carry this club coming through the pipeline. (and before i get hammered for Carter, his #’s where in the Cal league and he is getting dominated in 17 games in Hawaii) Pitching is great, but even with the great pitching from last year Oak lost because of the offense. The offense is what needs to be fixed, not the pitching and I am not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.
by laxtonto on Oct 25, 2008 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smoak's going to start at AA next year?
I hadn’t heard that. Is that just a guess or did you read it somewhere?
I think you’re over-rating Borbon’s offensive potential, unless you’re using EQA or something.
Before you think I’m attacking you, I do like Andrus a lot.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Oct 25, 2008 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
From most accounts the plan is Smoak to start in AA
or if not do a 10-20 game tester in A+, will know for sure after the AFL / Instructs…
I said the same thing when i heard it too…
Makes me feel bad for the Astros truthfully…
Kinda weird skill set with Borbon, with the biggest concern being his lack of BB, which it seems is a point of emphasis on him in the AFL.. He has maintained his above average BABIP regardless in the minors and in college…. The surprising thing was his OPS improving after leaving the Cal league to AA.. I don’t see him ever being a lead off high end OBP guy, but might be an extremely dangerous #9 guy with his speed on the base paths.
The big thing is to be league average at CF really only means a line of
LEAGUE AVERAGES BA OBP SLG OPS
Major League Baseball .268 .333 .419 .752
If he gets close to those numbers, with his speed on the base paths he would still be an average offensive player. He won’t be all world, but he definitely has the skills set to be an average to above everyday player.
With Borbon, he might have more value as trade bait than as a MLB player truthfully. In a way I see Bourn in Hou when I see him, but Borbon doesn’t have the K’s that Bourn did, and Bourn has never had a LD% as high Borbon. Weird player, but excellent in the OF defesively, with slight downgrade on his arm, but he has such good mechanics on his ball transfer and footwork it makes up for it.
The thing with Borbon is that coming into the 2007 college season he was a top 10 guy before he broke his ankle in Feb. Callis had him going 9th in his pre-collegiate season mock . Its amazing he slipped as far as he did, with most having concerns about his his slightly down numbers because he tried to come back to early and it hurt his OBP and AVG and steals early in the season.
by laxtonto on Oct 25, 2008 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Texas has no pitching
They had the worse pitching staff this year, because of their park they likely will always have one of the worst staffs, and odds are no star FA in their right mind will come there to pitch and if they do, they likely won’t have success. One thing that’s been seen is that they can have the best offense in the league and still suck. Better defense at first & SS won’t keep the ball in the park (one of the mlb worst) nor will it significantly reduce the number of triples & doubles (mlb worst). Better defense will help, but going from the worst to 5th or 6th worst won’t get them anywhere. Until they find a way to make their park play truer to MLB norms and get a good pitching staff, they’re going nowhere.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
by DMOAS on Oct 25, 2008 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're underrating just how much better D can help.
Look at how much, and acknowledgment that their D sucked, and then going out an improving it, both by acquiring players, and playing existing players at the correct positions has improved the DRays pitching.
What is often seen as pitching, is usually in large part influenced by D. Until the Rangers move Michael Young away from SS, they will likely always have crappy “pitching”.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Oct 26, 2008 12:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bah. typos / grammar
Look at how much an acknowledgment that their D sucked, and then going out an improving it: both by acquiring players, and playing existing players at the correct positions, has improved the DRays pitching.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Oct 26, 2008 12:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not even remotely sold on Andrus's bat
An empty average in the minors is usually a recipe for mediocrity in MLB where pitchers can exploit your weaknesses.
Also, tangential point, but after 17 games in Stockton this year, Carter was at something like .150/.300/.350. Small sample sizes are the work of the devil to mislead us into error.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 25, 2008 11:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's because you refuse to cut any slack
based on age relative to league.
He played almost a full season of AA at 19. From June on he hit 314/368/403 with 50 K’s in 293 at bats. He’s never going to hit for a ton of power but you should be at least remotely sold on his bat.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Oct 26, 2008 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Andrus ever posts a .380 BABIP in any major league season, I'll eat every piece of head clothing I possess
There’s no difference between the first part of his season and the second other than dumb luck. His park/luck neutral OPS this season was .676 and that’s probably optimistic given his total lack of power. (It’s still crediting him with a BABIP of .330.)
He’ll be a good player if he is good at defense. He will not be a good player if he is not good at defense.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 1:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I think BABIP is the work of the devil
Every time someone’s BABIP is high, it’s “just good luck”. Every time their BABIP is low, it’s “just bad luck”. I guess hitters never improve their approach, get in better hitting counts, adjust to weaknesses, etc. Now I’ll hear how players can’t control their BABIP, how it’s not sustainable…
…Just because one can’t expect a player to continue an abnormally high or low BABIP doesn’t mean the change isn’t related to an actual improvement or actual worsening in process – which can predict future development.
And anyway, one reason BABIPs can fluctuate so much is that batting averages can fluctuate so much. That just means that the difference between a .230, .250, and .270 average just isn’t as much as it appears to be. One hit every 50 ABs is nothing more than good or bad luck over those 50 ABs. It’s not a good way to predict future performance, period.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 26, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh?
There’s a huge, huge difference between hitters’ BABIP and pitchers’ BABIP. Pitchers’ BABIP is luck, pure and simple. Hitters’ BABIP is a function of how hard you hit the ball (and luck).
Elvis Andrus is a slap hitter with no power, which is why the .380 mark is insane and unsustainable. (Ditto Ben Revere, who the Twins should— but won’t— sell high on this offseason.) If Matt LaPorta posted a .380 BABIP… ok, I’d still expect it to regress but I would not be anywhere near as suspicious of the end results it produced.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think pitchers' BABIP is luck, pure and simple,
any more than I think Dallas Braden threw and pitched the ball identically in 2007 and 2008, FIP and other stats be damned. I agree with everything else you say in this post, though. The issue I have with “how hard you hit the ball” is that IIRC Daric Barton showed a high number of line drives this year, but he hit a ton of soft line drives whereas last Sept he hit bullets – beeeeg difference el grande, but hard for most metrics to account for.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 26, 2008 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hit F/X will solve that within a few years
We’ll be able to move on from “line drives” to “balls with launch angle of 0-20 degrees, velocity > 50 mph”, etc. For now, LD rate is as good as we can do, but it’s not really available for minor leaguers because the scoring and reporting in the minors is so erratic and variable.
As for pitchers’ BABIP being mostly luck, it’s like evolution. The evidence for it is overwhelming and comes from a variety of independent sources; the odds that people have somehow just misinterpreted the data are basically zero. If you choose to believe otherwise, though, there’s nothing to be done about it.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
[PaulThomas is smote by lightning bolt]
by oakinboston on Oct 26, 2008 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The funny thing is that when you say,
“The evidence for it is overwhelming and comes from a variety of independent sources,” the same can be said of the sun going around the earth, circa Galileo’s time – I mean, c’mon, just look up at the sky and look around, and tell me which is more likely, that we’re hurtling through space at warp speed or that the sun revolves around the earth!
Seriously, though, I wonder if pitcher’s BABIP will go similarly: that one day we’ll look back and go, “Why were we so sure it was luck and nothing more?” when movement/late movement, “controlling bat speed,” command of the corners, sinking action (GO/AO ratio), etc. affect how well you can expect batters to hit the balls they put in play.
I mean, when you argue that Braden was essentially the same pitcher in 2007 and 2008 (because things like his peripherals/FIP suggested he was), did you watch him? Because luck was NOT the difference.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 26, 2008 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw the same pitcher when he pitched... so, quite frankly, my observations fully back up the data here
Braden in 2007 was horrifically unlucky, in that he was constantly having these games where he would give up like 5 runs on 9 baserunners because all the other team’s offense would be concentrated in two innings.
I saw nothing different in his actual pitch quality, arsenal, command, etc in 2008— the only difference is that the opposing OPS wasn’t jumping 200 points when there was someone on base.
So, if there are pitchers who could hypothetically make a living off of movement, command of the corners, etc etc, why do these hypothetical pitchers not actually exist? Because they don’t. Wait around long enough for any pitcher and his ERA will eventually regress to his FIP.
I just looked at the top 10 pitchers in FIP-ERA differential from last season (the guys who most outperformed their peripherals). Five of them did so again this year. Five of them UNDERperformed their FIP this year.
(This is actually a better example than I could have hoped for, considering that the odds of 10 coin flips coming up 5 heads and 5 tails is less than 1 in 4.)
It’s frickin’ luck.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In 2007, I saw a guy who
threw his fairly straight fastball at the same velocity all the time, relied heavily on his changeup, and got hammered. In 2008, I saw a guy who added and subtracted with his fastball, threw more breaking pitches to right-handers, and didn’t get hammered. But what do I know?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 26, 2008 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Possibly I'm venturing out of my depth here, but ...
I’m not ready to assert that any baseball metric has been vetted to quite the extent that the theory of evolution has, and I wouldn’t be shocked if PT was perhaps disregarding certain legitimate counterpoints in the course of advancing his position.
Additionally, I understand that this “BABIP = luck” idea is counterintuitive, because it seems so apparent that pitchers do have control over particular outcomes (i.e. he threw a biting sinker on that pitch, voila, weak ground ball, and a flat slider on that pitch, voila, screamer into the gap). You extrapolate from those observable phenomena, and presume that the better a pitcher executes, the more apt he is to “control” balls in play (more popups and grounders, fewer of those screamers, etc.). Then, because the “execute better = lower BABIP” argument seems so sound, so obvious, you get even more granular, and add in stuff about selection and sequencing and (dare I say it) maturity/guts/focus.
Thus:
In 2008, I saw a guy who added and subtracted with his fastball, threw more breaking pitches to right-handers, and didn’t get hammered. **
All this stuff seems self-evident. You’ve watched baseball forever, understand pitching, and just know certain things to be true. This is one of them.
But in the long run, it just doesn’t work out that way. Here’s a cheap but I think somewhat instructive comparison:
Career BABIP against
A few randomly chosen bad pitchers:
Miguel Batista .302
Adam Eaton .304
Brandon Backe .301
Joel Piniero .301
Jeff Suppan .300
Odalis Perez .305
A few randomly chosen historically great pitchers:
Randy Johnson .302
Pedro Martinez .291
Roger Clemens .294
Greg Maddux .289
John Smoltz .292
Mike Mussina .299
Not much breathing room between those two lists. A little, but not much. Another way to phrase this would be “Jeff Suppan’s career BABIP against is lower than Randy Johnson’s. Maybe BABIP doesn’t have as much to do with skill as I thought.”
Over their careers, Randy Johnson has been better than Jeff Suppan because he’s struck out twice as many batters. Greg Maddux has been better because he’s given up half as many home runs.
That’s the long and short of it. Sometimes a duck is a duck. Don’t give up homers, keep the ball on the ground, don’t walk people, strike people out.
All those non-luck, execution-based variables you describe above are, along with natural talent, obviously fundamental to a pitcher’s long term success. They just don’t appear to have much of an impact on how many batted balls fall in for hits.
by 74mk on Oct 26, 2008 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
Changing speeds is important, because batters strike out more when they don’t know what pitch is coming. Good mechanics are important because they allow you to avoid walks and cripple pitches that can be mashed for home runs (and because they save a pitcher’s health). Fastball velocity and movement is important because it generates swinging strikes, which are hugely important for a pitcher’s strikeout rate. Ditto the break on a curve.
Having good stuff, good command, and good pitching knowledge is really really important— because it affects the controllable parts of pitching, not because it creates some alternative way of pitching well.
I don’t want to come off like a fanatic here— there are certain aspects of balls in play that appear to be controllable. Ground balls don’t help your BABIP, but they hold down your “slugging percentage BIP”. If you generate enough popups, you can get a bit of a “discount” on your BABIP, so that it would not surprise me if Jonathan Papelbon had a “true” BABIP of .290 instead of .300. But that’s the kind of range we’re talking about here— 5 points, maybe 10, 20 or 30 at the very extremes (from Papelbon to Jeremy Bonderman, say).
You want to make an argument to me that a guy has a true BABIP of higher or lower than normal, you need a ton of evidence— 3 or 4 full seasons worth of data, an argument based on his stuff, and some kind of argument off of his batted ball types. At that point, I might buy that he’s going to be 2 or 3 tenths of a run (at most) off of his FIP in one direction or another. That’s about as far as I’ll go.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, 74mk
If nothing else, it’s interesting. And any post that manages to include Adam Eaton, Brandon Backe, Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, and Miguel Batista is worth something in and of itself.
I guess my central point isn’t that “good pitchers have better BABIPs and it’s because they exert control over it” – it’s that the whole thing is more complicated than just “every time a ball is put into play there’s a Stratomatic level 3 in 10 chance it will fall no matter what the context.” Baseball is a wonderfully complex and confounding game.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 26, 2008 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, sure
But the hitter, the defense, the weather, the ballpark, and a number of other things probably have more impact on the ball’s eventual outcome than the pitcher does. And the pitcher does not control those things, with a few weird exceptions (like his own fielding ability).
Incidentally, Maddux’s exceptional ability to field his own position is also probably a factor in how low his ERA is/was. He probably saves 5-10 runs off his total a season that way.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe tRA is more up Nico's alley than FIP
http://www.statcorner.com/tRAabout.html
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 26, 2008 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course it says Braden was better last year
in both the majors and minors, so maybe not
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 26, 2008 11:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It likes Henry though, so it must be good
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 26, 2008 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, of course there isn't a 3 in 10 chance every ball in play will find the grass ...
that’s the average, overall. If a better hitter is at the plate, the odds may get up to 3.2 or even 3.3 in 10. If his defense is particularly bad another .10 or so might be added. The game is played in a park with a particularly small foul ground and deep outfield walls? Heck, add all of these factors together and the odds of the situation resulting in a hit could improve dramatically. Of course, the given pitch on which the ball is put in play also affects the odds and certainly, so does the quality of contact made. There are an almost endless number of variables that affect any given pitcher-batter confrontation — but very few are at all reflective of the skill of the pitcher. (Some are, as 74mk’s numbers demonstrate, pitchers do seem to exert a very small amount of control on balls in play — but a swing of more than about .010 cannot be explained by anything but luck)
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 27, 2008 12:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or, perhaps the most obvious alterer of batted ball fates:
Give the hitters an aluminum bat.
Sean Ratliff of Stanford had 67 hits on 154 balls in play in 2007. For those keeping score at home, that’s a ridonkulous .435 BABIP. With the erratic defenses and aluminum bats in college, it’s fairly routine for hitters to have BABIPs in excess of .350.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 27, 2008 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know how when most of us speak, air comes out of our mouths?
Well, with PT it’s different. He breathes in oxygen and breathes out hyperbole. That said, as you have demonstrated, he is correct.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 27, 2008 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
does that mean that whenever PT is waxing wise, we're all in a hyperbolic chamber?
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Oct 27, 2008 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about when PT is just being a jerk?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Oct 27, 2008 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
breathes in hyperbole and breathes out oxygen
like a Prius
by oakinboston on Oct 27, 2008 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
or a tree?
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 27, 2008 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Braden in 2008
also supossedly added about 2-3 miles per hour on his fastball. So that had to help him at least somewhat. I think his time in the bullpen also helped him learn how to get out of jams more easily, but that is just my speculation.
by jasonlbe on Oct 29, 2008 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2-3 miles per hour?
Try 0.8.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 29, 2008 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
which stat is the speed?
"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra
by Cheezombie on Oct 29, 2008 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitch Type / FB (speed is in parentheses, after percentage of fastballs thrown)
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 29, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On Average
But, what was Braden topping out at? That’s the determing factor.
by Colorado Fan on Oct 31, 2008 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please tell me this is sarcasm
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Nov 1, 2008 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Must be - I hear Braden is actually a bottom
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Nov 1, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A's needs something new
they are not a homerun team, what i dont get is why not use the speed they have more often. The A’s need to play some small ball, and use what they have. It doesnt matter if we can keep the other team from scoring with the great pitching and defense, we can only win if the runs come across the plate
by Wreckonized on Oct 25, 2008 1:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Geren gave the green light a lot more often than in years past
They stole quite frequently this year. Odds are they’ll continue this trend more next year but I doubt they’ll ever go the Angel’s route nor should they.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
by DMOAS on Oct 25, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
but i would like to see more aggressive plays on the bases and at the plate, getting the bunt down with 1st and sec no outs, getting the runner in at 3rd with an out instead of trying to get a hit (not that a hit is a bad thing), and going from 1st to 2rd on a single
by Wreckonized on Oct 25, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Statistically, the A's were a smallball team this season
They were also a “suckball” team, which should tell you something about the correlation between the two.
The A’s used the “speed they have”, which is actually not all that much if you exclude bad hitters like Patterson and Pennington who shouldn’t be starting, to steal 88 bases at a greater than 80% success rate. (Compare to the 2002 A’s, who stole 46 bases and were thrown out 20 times for a success rate of about 70%.)
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 25, 2008 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
not necessarily only stealing bases, but speed on the bases. Double plays have been a killer for the A’s. If we can run out the ground balls, slide hard into second base and be more aggressive. we can have a better chance of getting the runners in
by Wreckonized on Oct 26, 2008 12:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK
Far be it from me to stop your fantasizing— it’s clear that you are not yet ready to come to grips with what it takes to score runs in major league baseball.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is that the A's
aren’t good at what it takes to score runs in MLB. They have no power. Can’t hit.
There’s usually a tradeoff. Typically, the good / great hitters, are not all that great at D. Yes, obviously, there are the superstar types who are good at everything, but those aren’t easy to get your hands on. Conversely, the good defensive types are usually iffy hitters. They are also usually athletic / fast. If a team is going to go the defense route, it isn’t unreasonable for it to go a smallball route.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Oct 26, 2008 12:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a sac fly can bring a run home, a ground out can bring a run home, a bunt can bring a run home. Homerun hitters are always the talk of the game, but other players who get the job done never get attention. We dont need a team of superstars to get to a world series. simple fundamental baseball can go a long way. when we have a great pitching staff and a good defense behind the pitcher a few runs will get us a win.
by Wreckonized on Oct 26, 2008 1:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, if you believe this, there is probably no convincing you otherwise
Simple fundamental baseball will go all the way to about 75 wins or so. As I said, the A’s this year were a very “fundamental” team. They also were a very bad team offensively.
Baserunning is so bankrupt as an “offensive philosophy.” The difference in baserunning between the ‘02 team and the ’08 team was about 10 runs, and that’s the difference between a near-historically inept team and a rather good one.
As for the rest of the platitude parade, your assertion that the A’s are not currently breaking up double plays, etc etc is preposterous (and insulting to boot).
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 1:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No matter how many times you show them baserunning calculations
(and I attended a conference last weekend where a guy had a good presentation on it)
That the best teams are like +20 runs per a season, people still ignore it.
Can't get enough of the Oakland A's or Golden State Warriors? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's and Golden Stat Hoops
by iamawesomer on Oct 26, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it's 20 RAA, that's two wins. Not exactly chicken feed.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 26, 2008 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, but you're probably paying for 5 or 6 wins to get those 2 wins
at which point they ARE chicken feed.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not if they put you in the postseason, at which point
your marginal revenues are easily worth what paying for “5 or 6 wins” in an average leveraged situation might be.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 26, 2008 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
howzabout a swap of "failed" prospects?
Staplehead plus ??? for Salty.
Staplehead could play 1B or 3B for the Rangers (he’d, by PT’s account above, be a defensive improvement at either position, and potentially a wash or upgrade on offense).
If Salty returns to form, he could platoon with Zooks (and rotate in with others at 1B/DH), or he or Zooks could be flipped.
(And, yes, that plan pretty much depends on our signing Giambi — or, heck, Teixeira! — to play 1B. And living with Chavvy/Hannahan at 3B.)
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Oct 25, 2008 2:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I know a lot of people are done with Dale at this point
but I don’t see why we should trade him. His minor league career tells us that he will eventually be good in the majors (although Dan Johnson’s did too I guess), he is young, and most importantly his value is at an all time low because of this past season. Why trade him now? His value really can’t get that much lower and thus has only one way to go, which is up. A Dale/Teargarden trade would be fair value, but it leaves us without a first baseman and two catchers, which would be beneficial if our catcher sucked, but he doesnt. If we’re going to trade someone, I nominate Street or another bullpen arm.
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 25, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm all for trading Street
Fair points, one and all. I was just speculatin’ about a hypothesis. I know I don’t know nothin’.
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Oct 25, 2008 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough, usually what i say gets discredited in a minute
i’m more of a fan than a GM, but every now and then I get lucky and say something smart. a broken clock is right twice a day…
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 25, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're absolutely right about Dale
This season was troubling, to be sure, and his ceiling remains Olerudian, but he certainly should be given another shot or three.
The same general sentiment, though, obtains with Salty, and with a higher ceiling (IIRC) and at a higher-premium defensive position. My potential advocacy of Dale-for-Salty is less dumping Dale and more grabbing a chance to buy a better/higher-upside prospect who’s on an equally low valuation level.
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Oct 25, 2008 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i see your point
and i think that trade makes sense…but only, if like you said, we can flip one of them for another player. While Salty does seem like he is a legit big league hitter (or can be one eventually) he really doesn’t have that much of a minor league track record in the upper levels. Also, Zooks has some premiere defense, or so I read in some article recently, and I’m wondering how much that defense can close the gap between his offensive upside and Salty’s upside. This is all not to mention that i feel like trading within our own division would be extremely difficult and the Rangers already have Davis/Blalock at first. If we could nab one of their catchers for some of our excess pieces (Murton comes to mind) it would be better…but of course this is all predicated on the catcher in question improving upon his current value.
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 25, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Texas has had conversation for their Cathers
Texas has talks with Fl for Volstad and Bos for Bucholtz according to published reports before the deadline. They are dangling their C prospects for Premier Pitching.
Salty is going to play in winterball to see if he is all healthy in his arm and groin.
Im not thinking they will deal within the division for anything less than premier pitching prospects. Any of the other excess pieces would be redundant in Texas’ minor leagues, especially in the OF. Texas and Oak don’t match up well because Texas wants premier top flight SP, and I doubt Beane will send that to a division rival.
by laxtonto on Oct 25, 2008 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'd say they match up well
but the fact that they are in the same division is the main obstacle. Texas/Oakland will want an overpay in a trade…and that isn’t gonna happen
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 25, 2008 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm far, far more sold on Barton than I am on Saltalamacchia
Also, I don’t see what’s in it for the Rangers, because they don’t need a 1B. Chris Davis and Justin Smoak should easily have their 1B/DH spots taken for the foreseeable future.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 12:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya i think i wrote that too in a later comment
if we’re gonna trade within the division, i’m targeting beltre or someone who fills a position of need immediately
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 26, 2008 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Paul, this is a good summary.
If I were the Rangers, I’d bring in good defenders as stopgaps at SS, 3B and CF. This plus a pitching overhaul would make them immediate contenders.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 25, 2008 3:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thing is, though
You got about $10 million to spend.
What would I do if I was the Texas GM? Well, they have a ton of low-level pitching prospects who are pretty promising, but we all know how attrition works on teenage arms and they’re a long, long way off. I’d offer Sabean six low-A/short season/rookie ball arms for Matt Cain. If that doesn’t work (knowing Sabean, it probably wouldn’t— though it’s a move the Giants would be wise to make), I’d make the same offer to Seattle for Hernandez and to any other teams that are shopping young, talented pitchers.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather have the six arms if I were the Rangers if four of them are Boscan, Perez, Murphy
and Ramirez. Felix and Cain can get hurt too. In pitching quantity really counts. Regarding the payroll constraints, I’d reduce payroll by jettisoning Millwood, Padilla and Young as part of the acquisition of plus defenders. I’d rather trade Saltalamacchia, Laird and Ramirez for pitching than the younger pitchers, since they pretty much know they can’t use all of them and Teagarden at the same time efficiently.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 26, 2008 7:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other than trading the dead weight for plus defenders who may be dead weight on other teams
there’s also guys like Corey Patterson and Adam Everett still floating around. It doesn’t have to be Orlando Cabrera or someone else expensive. I’m hoping they consider Crosby a plus defender but I wouldn’t.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 26, 2008 7:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Young is "jettisonable"; that contract is an unbelievable millstone
Millwood and Padilla may be basically league average, but you’re going to have a real tough time selling GMs on giving up anything for league average production at league average salaries, particularly considering that that league average production is buried under park effects and horrible defense. And Padilla is an ass on top of that.
Also, Texas may even be looking to contract payroll. The team got hammered at the box office this year; they were 30th of 30 in differential between last season’s ticket sales and this season’s and that was before the economy collapsed.
As for quantity over quality… eh. Half of those guys are probably going to turn out to be one-season wonders or get injured, and a couple more will probably be mediocre or end up in the bullpen. Given the rates of attrition that minor league pitchers go through, you’re basically hoping for one good pitcher out of the group. Why not just get the one good pitcher right away?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because knowing the Rangers luck all of them become stars.
by Kinslerhomer on Oct 26, 2008 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Far be it from me to underplay the impact of organizational snakebite
but wouldn’t the flipside of that be that if you don’t trade them, they will all suffer labrum tears and/or break their pitching hands punching lockers?
At least if you deal them off, you have Matt Cain (although I suppose he could tear his labrum too…).
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Young for Zito plus $30M, and bring in Peterson to hypnotize him.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 26, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zito pitching in Texas?
I hope the fans are FITB (bleachers)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 26, 2008 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
11-1, 3.75 ERA
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 26, 2008 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
But Zito was good once. I doubt SF-era Zito pitched much in Texas.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 26, 2008 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hence the need for hypnosis.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 27, 2008 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough...
I was mostly just proud of my FITB crack anyway…
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 27, 2008 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I'm the Rangers
I trade one of my surplus catchers to the in-need Red Sox for something of equal value. The Red Sox have a lot of things to trade back, whether it be a prospect or some major league ready talent. Plus, the Rangers can afford to take on a little pay roll, so that won’t hold a trade back too much.
Really Off Topic: If I’m the Padres, I sign Prior, Mulder, and Clement and hope that their aggregate is one decent pitcher for the course of a season. If they could piece together a decent rotation and trade Peavy for hitting, they could contend next year. But the smarter thing is probably to sell peavy for prospects and actually rebuild.
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 26, 2008 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently you don't realize just how bad their pitching was last season outside of Peavy
The team had an ERA of 4.41, which sounds decent until you realize it was Petco and that adds up to an ERA+ of 89.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 26, 2008 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ew...ok well I still sign all three retreads...
if I’m Towers, next season is a bust right? might as well have fun with it…and for all the BoCro haters (myself included)…at least we didn’t have Kahlil Greene last year….
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 26, 2008 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Khalil actually had good numbers away from Petco before this season's disaster
OPS over .840 in 03, 04, 06, and 07. Looks like Petco finally got in is head like many other hitters.
I still think he would be a great buy low guy. He was also an above average defensive SS in 06 and 07.
My first thought was did he have an undisclosed injury before he broke his hand? Not only were his offensive numbers down but so where his defensive numbers,,,
by laxtonto on Oct 26, 2008 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would I trade Crotchby for Kahlil?
the answer is yes. What my point was, though, was that he somehow contracted andruw jones-itis and decided that it was time to invariable suck. He was god awful this past year. And there were enough at bats that my guess is that it was definitely something more than a fluke. I would be wary with him, especially seeing how much andruw jones sucks now. Colletti figured Andruw just had an offseason in ’07, but looked how that theory has gone for the dodgers. I generally do like the Dodgers idea of overspend on a player, but for less years. If I would to acquire Kahlil, it damn well better be on the cheap, and he is not necessarily an asset in any trade considerations.
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 26, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
typo*
“look how that theory has gone for the Dodgers”
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 26, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Brandon McCarthy will have a shot at (and win) one of the last 3 rotation spots.
Unless his arm fell off again when I wasn’t paying attention.
by thejd44 on Oct 25, 2008 11:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This division will be totally up for grabs again.....
We simply have to wait until the Angels make another question acquisition until we have the green light for sure. Giambi ftw! Go A’s.
www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.
by ChadGod on Oct 26, 2008 8:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I can’t help but wonder if the problem in Texas is one of recognition. They’ve had plenty of good pitchers but they don’t keep them. It seems they look at their Arlington-inflated stats,conclude they’re no good and put them on the block. One could field a pretty solid rotation with pitchers the Rangers have dumped for little or no return in the past decade. If they ever stopped doing this, they could compete for the division title a lot more often.
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
by Monday Fan on Oct 27, 2008 10:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm confused
… the second in our four-part introductory series …
Four-part series? Who is our fourth “enemy”?
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Oct 27, 2008 5:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Us? The Spanish Inquisition? SMERSH? Joe Morgan?
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Oct 27, 2008 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Emil Brown?
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 27, 2008 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better yet...BoCro himself
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 27, 2008 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one expects the Spanish Bobby Crosby!!!
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 27, 2008 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Furcal?
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Oct 28, 2008 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm goin with our uber SS prospect Jairo Garcia
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 28, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get no love
For my skipping-multiple-comment Monte Python reference?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 28, 2008 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not when you mis-spell it when complaining about it
Oh, if people only knew how frugal we are. @('.')@
by monkeyball on Oct 29, 2008 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 29, 2008 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have met the enemy
and he is us.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 27, 2008 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really see Bradley re-signing because it seems Wash
really likes having his bat in the lineup but also understand that as of right now, he is a free agent!
Have you read rumors about Milton signing with LAA?
"What do we do with Crosby? Well, in my neighborhood, trash goes out on Mondays." ~ Nico
by MMunoz33 on Oct 28, 2008 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry that I don't have the source for the BRadley rumor, maybe just Halo Heaven
b.s. to get ANers fired up?
"What do we do with Crosby? Well, in my neighborhood, trash goes out on Mondays." ~ Nico
by MMunoz33 on Oct 28, 2008 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one's signin' with anybody for another 15-18 days
For our purposes, that’s all I know.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 28, 2008 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bradley says hewill never sign another 1 year deal...
Texas likes his bat, kinda concerned over injuries and $$ and long term demand.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see him walk as a class A FA, Blalock to DH, Davis to 1st and get another 3B that can field the postion.
Don’t forget Texas has Max Ramierez waiting in the wings as a DH/backup c/back up 1B type
by laxtonto on Oct 30, 2008 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ramirez
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
by flipgatey3 on Nov 1, 2008 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bradley also may have stepped on some toes on the way out..
by VORP is too nerdy on Nov 1, 2008 7:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, c'mon - what's a little
charge of racism among friends?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Nov 1, 2008 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
People are so petty sometimes.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Nov 1, 2008 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 





















