All-Time Greatest MLB Position Players, #7
#7 Lou Gehrig
As this series returns from far too long of a vacation, I have to start with this statement: If you have not seen The Pride of the Yankees, you are not a baseball fan. Please leave this site immediately and do not return until you have fulfilled this critical obligation.
"Lou was the most valuable player the Yankees ever had because he was the prime source of their greatest asset - an implicit confidence in themselves and every man on the club."
Stanley Frank
Atypical for this series, which has generally proceeded in a fairly linear fashion, for this great of the game, what he did on the field, as half of the greatest hitting duo the game has ever seen, as a man whose power was as prodigious as it was profuse, as the embodiment of durability and hard work that was unmatched for over half a century and as the seventh greatest player to ever swing the lumber, none of that mattered as much as the simple, inspiring reminder to always look on the bright side.
When this mountain of a man – who could do greater things with his body than most of us could even hope to dream was stricken with a horrible illness in the prime of his life, who played the game with the joy of a small child suddenly saw not only his talents but his basic ability to function on the ball field disappear almost and who was taken far too quickly from his young, beloved bride – was told that he was dying from amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), his reaction was not one of despair, but instead he described himself as “the luckiest man on the face of the earth.”
On June 1, 1925, a young Lou Gehrig pinch hit for Pee Wee Wanninger, making on his 35th appearance in his third go around with the Yankees. The next day he took over as the starter at first for struggling veteran Wally Pipp. Two thousand, one hundred and twenty eight games later he took the day off, calling it a career because, eight games into his 17th seasons, health had robbed Gehrig of his strength, stamina and coordination – his ability to play the game at even the most basic level.
After going hitless against the Senators in the last game of April, dropping his OPS to .416 (an OPS+ of 10), Gehrig told his manager, “I’m bench myself, Joe … for the good of the team”. Before the next game at Detroit’s Tiger Stadium, the announcer began, "Ladies and gentlemen, this is the first time Lou Gehrig's name will not appear on the Yankee lineup in 2,130 consecutive games," and the crowd erupted into a massive standing ovation for the visiting great.
Joe McCarthy celebrated his great player, remembering that day and calling him “the finest example of a ballplayer, sportsman, and citizen that baseball has ever known – Lou, what else can I say except that it was a sad day in the life of everybody who knew you when you came into my hotel room that day in Detroit and told me you were quitting as a ballplayer because you felt yourself a hindrance to the team. My God, man, you were never that."
Over his long but too short career, Gehrig led the Yankees to six World Series titles, batted .340, with 493 home runs, 1,888 runs and 1,995 RBIs and an OPS of 1.080, the third best ever (behind only Ruth and Williams). He won two MVPs and a Triple Crown in 1935, when he finished an inexplicable fifth in the voting. He was elected to the Hall of Fame in a special vote the following winter, making him the youngest player inducted.
As I cut this article short, I leave you with the words Gehrig spoke on Lou Gehrig spoke on Lou Gehrig Appreciation Day, July 4th, 1939, a day when VIPs, teammates and members of the Yankee family showered him with gifts, praise and adoration and the loving crowd brought the great man to tears:
"Fans, for the past two weeks you have been reading about the bad break I got. Yet today I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth. I have been in ballparks for seventeen years and have never received anything but kindness and encouragement from you fans.
"Look at these grand men. Which of you wouldn’t consider it the highlight of his career just to associate with them for even one day? Sure, I’m lucky. Who wouldn’t consider it an honor to have known Jacob Ruppert? Also, the builder of baseball’s greatest empire, Ed Barrow? To have spent six years with that wonderful little fellow, Miller Huggins? Then to have spent the next nine years with that outstanding leader, that smart student of psychology, the best manager in baseball today, Joe McCarthy? Sure, I'm lucky.
"When the New York Giants, a team you would give your right arm to beat, and vice versa, sends you a gift — that’s something. When everybody down to the groundskeepers and those boys in white coats remember you with trophies — that’s something. When you have a wonderful mother-in-law who takes sides with you in squabbles with her own daughter — that's something. When you have a father and a mother who work all their lives so that you can have an education and build your body — it's a blessing. When you have a wife who has been a tower of strength and shown more courage than you dreamed existed — that's the finest I know.
"So I close in saying that I might have been given a bad break, but I've got an awful lot to live for. Thank you."
Of course, a recommend is always appreciated.
All-Time Greatest Position Players
#10 Mickey Mantle
#9 Rogers Hornsby
#8 Hank Aaron
#7 Lou Gehrig
#6
#5
#4
#3
#2
#1
7 recs |
66 comments
Comments
Loved this read Devo...
If anyone is interested more in Lou, I recently finished Jonathan Eig’s book on him…Really good and interesting read.
Bring back Hammer.
by OaktownPower on Oct 21, 2008 1:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
Any particularly interesting points to relate?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 21, 2008 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually enjoyed the early years stuff....
I knew most of the baseball stuff in the second half of the book, but stuff about his childhood, how shy he was, how close to his mother he was, the barnstorming trips teams made back then to make more money, etc. It is amazing how poor the players were, especially at the start of their career…there is a story in there about Gehrig not having wnough money to get his own place at Spring Trainign because the guys weren’t paid until the season started. The thought of an all-time great crashing on the floor of a teammate’s place is just crazy to think of now.
I also didn’t know much the start of his career was up and down….I always assumed with all the Wally Pipp stories that he signed one day and mashed and that was it….He actually went back down the Minors after his initial call up and thought for a while he would be out of baseball since he had not heard from the Yankees for a while during the off-season after his first callup.
It’s an interesting read not only for Gehrig, but to get a feel for baseball in that era.
Bring back Hammer.
by OaktownPower on Oct 22, 2008 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like a good one.
Thanks for the summary.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Oct 22, 2008 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, just finished it...
and thought it was an excellent read.
You really get a sense of who Gehrig was. I can’t say much past what you put, cause you nailed all the points. But I did enjoy reading about Gehrig’s contract each year. This guy put up ridiculous numbers and never really complained about getting low-balled alot of the time.
It was also interesting to read how long the development of ALS really was. I always had the impression it just set in and that was it. Granted it wasn’t that long, but you really got an idea of how difficult and frustrating it was for an incredibly athletic man to just start to lose control of his body.
And to have no idea why for quite awhile. And still to have such optimism.
Quite the read.
99 MPH with as much control as a deflating balloon - CurveballKing on H-Rod
by Scottbass on Oct 23, 2008 12:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've missed these, devo.
Thanks for the great read on one of the game’s favorite sons. Love that pic of him and George.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Oct 21, 2008 1:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, I've had a crazy busy last few months ...
I’m hoping to have more free time from mid November going forward and am trying to get myself to make more time for writing …
I have six more of these and a number of stat based articles that I’m hoping to get through in the off season …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 21, 2008 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I look forward to them.
I am working on just one article, but it looks like it could become a mulitple-part piece. On Rickey.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Oct 21, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Multiple"
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Oct 21, 2008 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knowing you ...
that one article will probably be longer than all six of mine, combined … ; )
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 21, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha! More than likely.
But he did play, like, forever.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Oct 21, 2008 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So did the discussion ...
in this article I penned …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 21, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't wait to read it.
My AN tenure doesn’t reach that far back so I will enjoy the trip back in time, I am certain. And I will try not to steal any of your info for my Rickey piece.
Though stealing for anything Rickey-related might be appropriate.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Oct 21, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Steal away ...
just don’t dare to suggest that Rickey is anything except the greatest …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 21, 2008 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And here's a link ...
to the wrap up article from that series, which contains links to the entire series … if you have a heck of a lot of time to waste …
Obviously, history has not made my choice for #8 look good …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 21, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had enough time for today's post.
I am sure I can find some more for these. Looking forward.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Oct 21, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice!
Glad to see you re-launch this series.
"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
-Charles Manson
by kaweahkaweah on Oct 21, 2008 5:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
One of my favorite AN features
Great job as always Devo. Thanks for your contributions.
I am continually amazed at the high quality of free, unpaid content this site is capable of producing – not only the articles, but the humor, comments, and the general wealth of knowledge that this group has to share. And not just the baseball stuff – AN is a great place to just plain get smarter, in general.
Thanks to all of you who contribute to that. It’s something I look forward to each day.
"Some of the men didn't wait for the women and children to jump off the sinking ship that is our season." - 67MARQUEZ
by notsellingjeans on Oct 21, 2008 5:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You're certainly in that group, nsj
I always enjoy reading your posts. But yeah, with this gem by devo and Taj’s wonderful interview with Melissa- which seems to get better every time I read it- it makes it plenty easy to come back here each day. Now that I have actually have some time to.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Oct 21, 2008 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're welcome ...
But if Blez decides he wants to start paying me, I promise not to start writing for the lowest common denominator … 8 D
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 21, 2008 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for the post devo
reading about Gehrig generally brings up two thoughts:
1. Gehrig’s still underrated.
2. I hate Ripken even more.
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on Oct 22, 2008 11:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you saying that calling him the 7th greatest position player ever underrates him?
To an extent, it might, if he had been able to get another four or five solid seasons, he would have been in the hunt for as high as #2 in these ratings …
Records are made to be broken. Ripken was a really great player, too — especially the first half of his career.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 22, 2008 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not in your rankings necessarily....
though we’ve only gotten to #7!
I meant that Gehrig was one of the greatest hitters ever and still seems to get overlooked in discussions about the greatest hitters ever.
My beef with Ripken isn’t about whether or not he was a great player, he absolutely was. However, if Ripken had any class, he would have tied the record and then sat out the next game. I mean, he broke a streak held by a man who really had no choice but to end his streak. I agree records were made to be broken and all, but it was shitty of Ripken to break it, especially by someone who seems to really respect the game.
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on Oct 22, 2008 12:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That makes no sense whatsoever
Whether we choose to break a record is a moral judgment on the character of the person whose record is broken?
There is never any situation in which someone “should” not break a record. That’s not the same thing as saying there’s never a situation where you should not attempt to break a record. If you’re in a close pennant race, you don’t swing for the fences every time up to break the HR record when doing so makes you a worse overall hitter. What you’re saying is more the equivalent of hitting the record breaking home run and then stopping at third base voluntarily, which unquestionably HURTS your team.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 22, 2008 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm talking specifically about this record....
which is clearly a unique situation because the record was held by a guy who was forced to stop playing. A record based on health and longevity that was unfairly cut short, not by injury or some off-the-field incident, but because the guy contracted a fatal disease.
I agree with your argument that not chasing records can hurt your team, however in this case I think Ripken was being selfish. He was in his seventh consecutive season of average to below-average production, so it’s pretty difficult to argue that sitting out was going to hurt his team. And in 1998, when Ripken finally passed Gehrig, the Orioles finished in 4th place, 35 games back.
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on Oct 22, 2008 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lou Gehrig would have retired anyway at some point
probably not real far off from when he did; maybe 2-3 more seasons. In all likelihood, Ripken would have broken the record anyway.
Would it have been legitimate then?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 22, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IF Gehrig was able to continue playing, and IF Ripken broke a healthy Gehrig's record
I would obviously have no issue. But that’s not what happened.
But the fact that is Ripken felt the need to show that he was more of an “Ironman” than a Lou Gehrig—who died of a disease that was so uncommon and devastating that it’s commonly referred to as Lou Gehrig’s Disease.
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on Oct 22, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What difference does it make if the record was going to be broken anyway?
And where does this end? I’m sure there are plenty of records that were not extended because players had career-ending injuries. Is it OK to break Jerry Rice’s TD record even though it would probably have been 30 higher if he hadn’t suffered a catastrophic knee injury?
What exactly is the point of this?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 22, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
injuries are part of the game, diseases aren't...
You are right in saying that Ripken probably would have broken the record regardless. And I’m not trying to take away from Ripken’s ability to stay healthy enough to play every day for that long. That is amazing.
The point: Lou Gehrig was literally dying when he had to end his streak of consecutive games played. Cal Ripken chose to one-up a dead man rather than honor him, and I think he’s an asshole for doing so.
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on Oct 22, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, so, is Rocco Baldelli a sympathetic figure, or just shit out of luck?
Depending on your point of view you could characterize him as having either “injuries” or a “disease.”
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2008 12:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it kind of both with him...
he has some mitochondrial disorder that doctors haven’t figured out….but he’s also torn an ACL and had Tommy John surgery. IIRC he was considered fragile before he was diagnosed with this extreme fatigue thing.
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on Oct 23, 2008 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point I'm trying to make is that the line between the two is far too vague to start moralizing about it
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we moronize it instead?
Speaking to no one in particular, just trying to fill my pun quota.
Does this even count?
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Oct 23, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you trying for quota the month?
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on Oct 23, 2008 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no I understand
we just disagree on luck on the field vs. luck off the field. If, instead of getting ALS, Gehrig had just blown out his knee and had to retire, I probably wouldn’t feel the same.
As for the moralizing, you’re right. I really shouldn’t say that I hate Ripken or that he’s an asshole. What I should have said is that it would have been really cool and classy if Ripken sat out after tying Gehrig. But he didn’t, and now we’re subjected to TV ads with Ripken, Mrs. Ripken Jr. and Snake Eyes.
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on Oct 23, 2008 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That sounds a whole lot better.
Although I have nothing personally against hate.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Oct 23, 2008 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Rocco, he's having quite the interesting game here
He really doesn’t make sense for the A’s to bring in, but if they weren’t flush with outfielders I’d say he would be a good flier to take.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 23, 2008 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously...
Jerry’s the man. I never thought about that, but yeah, he would have a few more.
I always looked at how far and away he was above the field. I mean, the difference between first and second in some of his major records is a decent career for a wideout.
He was absolutely unreal. I think he’s the greatest football player ever, although most would say Jim Brown.
99 MPH with as much control as a deflating balloon - CurveballKing on H-Rod
by Scottbass on Oct 23, 2008 1:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are only 52 players in the history of the game ...
including Rice and TO, who have as many receiving TDs as the difference between them
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 23, 2008 2:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually
it was in 1995, and at that point the Orioles were in third place at 57-65, 19.5 behind Boston
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on Oct 22, 2008 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
I mean you can say that for a lot of players, who may have gotten hurt in pursuit of/or extending a record. Or who just got old for that matter. Were there times that Ripken may have hurt his team by staying in the lineup? Possibly. Was his manager(s) guilty of succumbing to the weight of the streak, and not resting him when a rest may have been surely warranted? More than likely.
But overall…
Ripken not only showed up to work every day. He performed. And asking him to cheat the record and the fans who wanted to see him break it seems a little silly. What people forget about records being broken is the chance to celebrate the players whose records are being broken. Lou Gehrig’s record would have simply disappeared were it not for Ripken. If anything, it gaves us a real sense of what 2,130 meant to begin with. I said the same thing as Bonds neared Aaron. It gave us the opportunity to appreciate Aaron and his feat even more. Same went for Rose in ’78 when he chased DiMaggio, and fell 12 games short. It magnified “56” that much more.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Oct 22, 2008 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we're reaching for the absurd...
…why didn’t Gehrig sit out after he tied the record? If he’d have done that, Ripken (and a whole bunch of other guys) wouldn’t have been forced to work so hard. That Gehrig was an even bigger bum than Ripken, I tell ya!
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
by Monday Fan on Oct 22, 2008 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus he took poor Wally's job.
What kind of man would do such a thing?
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Oct 22, 2008 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
great player and all but with only 7 spots to go I really didn’t see that coming- I had 8 other names as a shortlist . I was thinking which one of speaker/musial was going to miss out – I guess now the answer is both.
by wbelfield on Oct 22, 2008 4:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I saw Pride of the Yankees in Lincoln Center sitting behind Teresa Wright's daughter
Unfortunately she was then introduced by John Stirling.
Devo, did you ever give the basis for these rankings?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 22, 2008 9:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think so ...
I first selected something like 60 players to pull stats for, basically the top 5 at every position from James’ Historical Abstract plus a few others. I then compared them statistically, based on WARP3, combining peak, career and average per 1540 games.
I took the top 21, based on those numbers and submitted them to a fan survey of several SN blogs, asking fans to rank their top 10.
In the third category, they were awarded points for records, awards, post season success and “other”, which included things like giving consideration for players who missed significant time due to military service, saw their career end early, due to a deadly disease or negative points if they are widely assumed to have used massive amounts of steroids. This is, granted, more than a bit arbitrary and only had a fairly minimal impact on the final rankings. The rankings actually settled themselves nicely into tiers. There was a clear number one, two through four were very close, five through seven were close and eight through ten were close, with clear gaps between the groups. The “other” points pretty much only moved guys around within these groupings.
So, anyway, each player was awarded points within each of these categories, based on how they scored, relative to the average (of this select group, not of the league as a whole). Those three scores were added up and there you have the rankings.
All three measures agreed on eight of the ten players who made the final list. I don’t think the list will end up being too controversial … with the only real problem people have being that the top 10 couldn’t have 11 or 12 players in it … (that and the fact that I only considered MLB players)
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 23, 2008 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, you did.
Here it is.
99 MPH with as much control as a deflating balloon - CurveballKing on H-Rod
by Scottbass on Oct 23, 2008 1:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The link doesn't go right to the comment...
but it’s the one that starts, “It’s a very simple formula…”
99 MPH with as much control as a deflating balloon - CurveballKing on H-Rod
by Scottbass on Oct 23, 2008 1:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why yes, I did ... whaddaya know ...
I guess that’s what happens when a series has spanned almost 11 months and isn’t even half done, yet …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 23, 2008 1:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds good. The only quibble I might have is that if you only considered MLB players
the title should reflect that. Josh Gibson and Sadaharu Oh are definite candidates for a list of “All Time Greatest Position Players”, but not for “All Time Greatest MLB Position Players”
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 23, 2008 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are you talking about? The title totally does!
; )
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 23, 2008 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha!
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 23, 2008 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent job again, devo.
And yes, I still want to know…
When I’m done, if you remember, remind me to say who the player that would have slipped in over Mantle was … that could lead to an interesting discussion.
99 MPH with as much control as a deflating balloon - CurveballKing on H-Rod
by Scottbass on Oct 23, 2008 1:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Alright, well I guess I'll go ahead and tell you ...
since the remaining six are pretty much no-brainers … I mean, the order can be debated, but any list should definitely include the remaining six …
Number 11 was Stan Musial. He actually finished tied for fifth in the stats category, ahead of everyone already listed, as well as the guy who is coming next, but finished 11th in the fan voting and 14th in the “Intangibles” category, slipping just behind Mantle and Hornsby, who were basically tied (1 100th of a point difference).
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 23, 2008 1:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can certainly live with that
Especially because Mantle did what he did without a knee.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 23, 2008 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a little surprised...
that he dropped from 5 to 11 because of fan voting and intangibles. I say if you are going to take into account ingesting large quantities of steroids, you should consider what Mantle did to his body and, in effect, his team.
This is a guy, and I think we all know one like him, that just couldn’t stop himself. He drank and drank. I recall a quote from Ball Four where Mantle came in to work totally hungover (probably still half-drunk), went in to hit, got a homer, and walked back into the dugout, to the cheers of the crowd, saying “They have no idea how hard that was.” For fuck’s sake, imagine what he’d have done at least mostly sober.
I mean, at least steroids were beneficial to the athlete and team. At least that was the perception. Mantle did nothing but bring his team down. Only because the Yanks were so powerful did this not really matter.
Not that I’m downing Mantle, I think he’s great. But if you could have a choice between two players, even counting the stats as a wash (which you say favor Musial), one of whom was the epitome of professionalism and the other was an alcoholic that would often show up inebriated. I don’t think it’s a tough choice.
So I guess it’s hard to accept that Mantle, and others for that matter, doesn’t get a debit for his drinking and the effect it had on his career.
Sorry if this was mostly incoherent. I have a headache and am not thinking terribly clearly.
99 MPH with as much control as a deflating balloon - CurveballKing on H-Rod
by Scottbass on Oct 24, 2008 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's totally coherent ... even if I'm not entirely sober ...
My lack of sobriety not with standing, I’d generally assume that any player (as Ruth, as well, was certainly reputed to have) who enjoyed the good life a little too much saw their performance suffer to more or less exactly the extent they should have been punished in retrospect.
Honestly, the difference in this system is that Mantle played for the Yankees and was constantly going to the World Series. Take away the difference in points he was awarded because of that and Musial clears him by more than their current difference. Ultimately, I’m okay with that, though. When we’re talking about the all-time greats, playing for the championship counts for something. If a player spent his entire non-WWII era career with a second division team, playing in games that didn’t count nearly as much, that takes a little something away from his luster. At the same time, though, if we didn’t treat Musial’s awards and achievements during WWII with the same regard as we do the others’ (given the lesser competition, that might just be appropriate — and he earned more or less the same number of Intangible points during WWII as Mantle had on him for WS appearances), he’d probably fall down the list … no, actually, he’d still be #11, but hanging out with A-Rod and Rickey instead of Mantle and Hornsby.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 24, 2008 1:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I'm a whimp
But at work I started to tear up reading quote from gehrig at work. I’ve read and seen it before, but it still hit me as one of the humble things ever said.
"If people don't know who he is, they'd better turn on the television and check him out."
by jacobo2u on Oct 23, 2008 3:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll be honest ...
I definitely got a little misty eyed writing this thing …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 23, 2008 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel like I should hug both of you.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Oct 23, 2008 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Group hug!
Come on, let’s get PT and scatterbrian in here too!
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 23, 2008 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya I don't know if Lou is one of the ten best mlb position players but
he’s certainly one of the ten best mlb stories.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 23, 2008 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you'd be hard pressed to make the case that he isn't in at least the top twelve or thirteen ...
He also finished 7th in the fan voting, so I don’t think too many folks’d argue with me.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Oct 24, 2008 1:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, I wasn't arguing against him, just saying I don't know.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 24, 2008 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm in
I’ll even hug Ripken too!
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on Oct 23, 2008 3:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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