Cry me a River
by Vacafan on Jan 3, 2008 2:38 PM PST
85 comments
I rarely start a new thread, but I just have to rant a bit and get this off my chest amidst all of the "world is falling" nonsense ...
The A's were not going to be very good next year with Dan Haren and Nick Swisher. They were going to be about where they ended up this season ... 10 games under .500. Only the most optimistic Polly-Ana A's fans on this site could/would ever think this team had a chance next season.
That being said, why not start from scratch and gather players that give this team a legitimate chance to compete 2-3 seasons down the road??? I just don't understand the angst.
Please spare me all of this "he was such a nice guy" bull****! Who gives a rip how nice he is?! Yup, Swisher is a nice guy. Now tell me how many wins it adds to the ledger. Cause if it doesn't equate to about 10 of 'em, I don't care how nice a guy he is.
We robbed the White Sox blind today people ... I'm no Billy Beane apologist, but it reminded me of the "old days." This team is beginning to load up for the future and it's being met with hand-wringing and woe-is-me nonsense from many fans who haven't a clue what they're talking about. (Please notice I said "many," so if this offends you, consider yourself in the other group.)
We were going to suck next year anyway!!! Why all the whining about it now? So we'll suck with players no one's ever heard of, instead of sucking with Haren and Swisher. Deal with it. Great, great day to be an A's fan ... if you're bummed, you need to pick up a prospectus and educate yourself.
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You are a moron
by 3Chavy3 on Jan 3, 2008 2:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Ok
But now tell me which part you disagree with.
by Vacafan on Jan 3, 2008 2:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
all of it
by 3Chavy3 on Jan 3, 2008 6:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, he's kind of right.
He's definitely pouring salt in the wound of people who are still reeling, and who really love Swisher, but...
...he's still right.
by baseballgirl on Jan 3, 2008 4:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he's very right.
The A's were not going to go anywhere in 2008. If Beane thinks he can improve the team in the near future at the cost of a season or two that were already going to be struggles, why not make some moves now, restock the system, and roll the dice on some of them coming through?
by Flashfire on Jan 3, 2008 4:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You don't give a rip about
Swisher being a nice guy. That is your right.
Other fans have an equal right to approach their fandom in other ways. Regardless of whether they have had a Prospectus education.
Also, since you're talking about a Prospectus education, the A's park adjusted pythag in 2007 was 83 wins, 3 wins behind the Angels' 86.
by rfloh on Jan 3, 2008 2:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying that Swisher "being a nice guy"
has absolutely nothing to do with winning ballgames. Love the fact he's a nice guy ... if he's babysitting or walking my grandmother across the street. Otherwise, it has nothing to do with winning baseball games.
by Vacafan on Jan 3, 2008 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Most aren't saying that.
They know that the Swisher deal is most likely a good one but a lot of people enjoyed and liked Swisher. Your diary is mean spirited and insensitive to those who feel a sense of loss. Try being a little nicer.
by IM4Oakgal on Jan 3, 2008 2:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
IM4
Seriously, a "sense of loss?" Really? Well -- and I mean this -- if "losing" a ballplayer to another team causes this much pain and sorrow, well, there isn't much to say about that.
And,no, most people are, in fact, angry because they think this trade makes the team worse, NOT because we lost a "nice guy."
by Vacafan on Jan 3, 2008 2:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Some people
think it's a poor trade. But I have been reading the threads. Most are just sorry to see such a vivacious and interesting player leave the team. Many were fans of his. Your superior attitude does you no credit.
by IM4Oakgal on Jan 3, 2008 3:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not all about wins and loses
It is certainly more fun to watch players; a team, win instead of losing....but many fans look at the game from a different light than what can he do for us and how many more games will we win? We spend hours in the sun, year after year watching these players and it's a bit hard not to get a bit attached and feel a sense of loss when we lose one that has been around awhile. I am a prospectus guy and I feel a little "down" when favorite players ( Hudson, etc.) get shipped out.
by bajablue on Jan 3, 2008 4:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes,
And you have every right to only care about how many wins he adds.
Other fan, equally, have every right to care about him being a nice guy, Prospectus education or not. Rooting for more than laundry does not mean that a fan should "need to pick up a prospectus and educate yourself."
by rfloh on Jan 3, 2008 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, that was obviously the comment
that set you off ... my point is, if you care about wins and losses, the players we got today probably mean many more wins down the road. Now, will you get off the soapbox and tell me what you think of the trade from a "wins/losses" point of view???
by Vacafan on Jan 3, 2008 2:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That wasn't the comment that set me off
It was more the entire tone of your whole post, ie anyone who doesn't like this trade is an ignorant fan, that prompted me to reply.
From a talent standpoint, I love Swish, but I also love the trade. I am (probably irrationally) high on De Los Santos and Gonzalez. Beane has collected quite a few high upside pitching prospects in DLS, Anderson, Cahill, Rodriguez and Gonzalez.
DLS looks like he could, if things go well, become an ace type pitcher with high number of Ks, great stuff. He had a nearly 5:1 K / BB in A+, yeah SSZ. Goldstein on BPro gave him 5 stars, and Goldstein is quite stingy with his 5 star ratings. Sickels understandably is less sanguine, since Sickels is more impressed by production, and less by projectability.
Gonzalez has a lower ceiling but is more ready. Goldstein gave him 5 stars; Sickels rates him as good as DLS. A non-optimistic projection is a league average starter who in maybe 2009.
That said, Swish is a very good player. He gets on base at a very good rate, and plays very good D. Offensively, using either Batting Runs above average from BPro or Batting Runs from BBRef, he is about 20-30 runs above average, before a positional adjustment. Defensively, UZR loves him and typically has him at at least 10 runs above average. In 2007, RZR had him at 9 runs above average, zone rating at 5 runs above average. In total, about 20-30 runs above average. That is worth about $15M-$20M a year as an FA. He is entering his prime, so not likely to decline. He is signed to way below market rates, about $35M for the next 5 years.
From a pure talent standpoint, this was not, IMO, a robbery by Beane. This is a fair trade, without looking at context. It looks unwise for the WS because the rest of their team, with some exceptions like Buehrle and Vazquez, is pretty damn mediocre.
by rfloh on Jan 3, 2008 3:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
After reading your post
I feel sufficiently educated so that I don't need to pick up a prospectus. Thanks for the info.
by guapobob on Jan 3, 2008 6:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the problem with this trade
If 27 year old, signed to 2012 Nick Swisher is too old for this team to keep, then how the hell is anyone suppose to get emotionally involved in this team?
I mean, these three guys could turn out to be Huddy, Mulder and Miggy...but it doesn't change the fact that one of OUR guys who (even in this trade'em all time) we thought we safe is now gone.
If you don't feel anything for that, YOU probably shouldn't be here because as smart as most AN fans are, they're still humans who care and love this team and these players.
by oaklandfan40 on Jan 3, 2008 2:54 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think that's where we differ oaklandfan
I've been a fan since '71 ... let's just say that I've seen more than one or two Nick Swisher's come and go. If your "fandom" is tied into particular athletes playing for your favorite team, then you will be greatly disappointed year in and year out cause ... guess what? ... they don't stay in Oakland. Never have, never will.
I love the Athletics because they're my favorite team, but I don't place any loyalty on individuals, because they will be here today, gone tomorrow. The person leaves, the jersey stays. I root for the jersey.
by Vacafan on Jan 3, 2008 2:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Never have never WILL?
Sorry you don't have the power to predict that. When the team is in Fremont things may go down differently.
by IM4Oakgal on Jan 3, 2008 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I liked Swisher as a guy an awful lot.
But I never really thought he was as good a player as he was lauded as being. In fact, I think we got more for him than the Sox should have paid.
So, really, I'm okay with the deal.
But wow, this was a diary that just didn't need to be written.
by Ozzz on Jan 3, 2008 2:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Hey this is a first for me!
You expressed my feelings exactly Hollywood Oz. Never thought I'd write that. :-)
by IM4Oakgal on Jan 3, 2008 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hollywood
you've been around a lot ... tell me what was so "cruel and unusual" about the diary?
by Vacafan on Jan 3, 2008 3:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A few things make it unnecessary.
Second, the 'what's better, having a nice guy who plays well or an asshole who plays better' debate is one that has been done to death, and usually ends with folks on either side thinking (or worse, saying) that the other side is made up of classless/clueless idiots. I'll put my hand up as being one of the folks who usually gets into those scraps, despite knowing better.
I don't disagree with your assessment that we robbed Chi Sox blind, or that we're going to be a powerhouse a year or two down the line, or that we weren't going to compete this season anyway. All of that is spot on.
It's just the over-arching theme of, if you don't agree, or you didn't want Swisher to get traded, or you're sad to lose a nice guy, you need to get educated, that strikes me as something that spoils the message and turns it into ridicule of folks that just don't deserve it.
Sorry to call you out, Vaca. Got no issue with you in general, but I know you'll feel free to point out to me when I make an error of judgment or seven (and I hope you always do, since it happens on average about once a day).
by Ozzz on Jan 3, 2008 4:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bravo
I really am impressed by your detached, business-only indifference. I mean, after all, this blog ought to be a forum strictly for comparing statical analysis, right? What does any of this sentimental hogwash about "fan favorites" have to do with the dismal science of economics anyway?
I don't even think of the team as a collection of individual players so much as chess pieces for Billy Bean to maneuver. Heck, I'm not even sure who this Nick Swisher is.
by kvn on Jan 3, 2008 2:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Glad to see you get it. :-)
Good point(s) -- just expressing frustration over the fact I think this trade helps the team immensely. Don't understand how something that helps our favorite team win is met with anger, that's all.
by Vacafan on Jan 3, 2008 3:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My reply, vacafan, would be this:
When a well-known, well-liked fixture, like Haren or Swisher, is traded, and the team is made better only a seemingly distant future, why isn't the most reasonable response to be sad, frustrated, woe-is-us the day of the trade, and sanguine, pleased, measured a week/month later?
So on the day of the Swisher trade, a lot of people are in the "sad, frustrated, and woe-is-us" stage, possibly to be sanguine, pleased, and measured about it down the road. This is not utterly appropriate?
by Nico on Jan 3, 2008 3:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
It's entirely appropriate
I just like to stir the pot. (You know I get some twisted, perverse joy from seeing so many get so worked up.)
You're always the one to rein me in, dang it. LOL
No, it's the old man in me coming out ... I just really think we took Chicago to the cleaners today ... great, great trade for us ... and, like always, I want everyone to see things MY WAY! :-)
by Vacafan on Jan 3, 2008 3:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and I am with you
on this sentiment. "I just really think we took Chicago to the cleaners today ... great, great trade for us "
Whoo Hooo Beane got us pay dirt!
by IM4Oakgal on Jan 3, 2008 3:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we took CWS to the cleaners too
I think it was an excellent trade, because as solid as Swisher was, he was not a CFer, a high average hitter, or a reliable 30+ HR guy. He is a B+ player for whom we got two kick-ass pitching prospects.
The Haren trade disappointed me because I really thought we were going to keep Haren and deal Blanton - which I think would have been Billy's preference. Now we have no ace, tons of great young arms, and still no CFer or SS. If we could get this haul for Swisher, I'd rather have gotten one young arm and one key position player for Blanton and held onto Haren.
But this trade looks great to me - and I still think people are totally rational to say "NO- we lost Swish! NO!" independent of who we got back. He was a great guy, a true personality, and one of the few "faces of the team" left.
by Nico on Jan 3, 2008 3:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nico, you do have a nice way
with words. :-)
by IM4Oakgal on Jan 3, 2008 3:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
to me it's pretty amazing that the White Sox
want Swish to be their everyday center fielder...and the two pitching prospects they gave up are absolute steals
(and yes, I like Swish)
by OaklandSi on Jan 3, 2008 5:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's kinda like
Breaking up with someone you really liked. It hurts for awhile, but you carry on and things will be OK. I hated to see Nick go, but for the long term health of the franchise it will help. I can remember the fire sale of 1976-1977. That was a COMPLETE destruction, and it sucked. But we were back on top a few years later. We will be fine.
by billyball1981 on Jan 3, 2008 6:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The point of being a baseball fan ...
is NOT to win games.
The point of being a baseball fan is primarily to bring enjoyable recreation into our lives as well other secondary items that vary from one fan to the next -- excuse to talk to kid, excuse to get drunk, excuse to be a statistics nerd, excuse to be an asshole, etc ...
Some of those can be aided by winning, but winning in and of itself is not the point.
Many fans take enjoyment from rooting for particular individuals who they have gotten to know from afar a bit, guys who have fun personalities, who sign autographs for kids and play with puppies. Guys like Nick Swisher.
You, apparently, are not one of those fans (At the moment, at least). That's fine. No one has a problem with that.
But why do you feel the need to be an asshole about it ....
whoops, wait a second ...
excuse to be an asshole, etc ...
my bad, you're right ... I shouldn't criticize the way you enjoy baseball, either ...
by devo on Jan 3, 2008 3:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Like I told Nico, maybe it's the old man coming out in me. I've just learned through 36 years of being an A's fan (not boasting, just thinking how long it's been,) if I were to get upset each time a favorite player left, I'd have been institutionalized a loooooong time ago.
I get my enjoyment, as you say, when the A's win. When the team is full of really nice guys who help kids with their homework and help out at the senior center and give their paycheck to Red Cross, but lose more often than they win? I'm not happy. I root for the A's for one reason ... to see them "win the whole f-in thing," (as Tom B. says in Major League.) Again, players come and go ... the jersey stays. That's what I'm loyal to.
by Vacafan on Jan 3, 2008 3:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great vent thread Vacafan
by grover on Jan 3, 2008 3:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Are you kidding me
I think the insensitivity of this entirely unnecessary diary has already been discussed ad nauseum by people who can put it far better than I can. But it's still pissing me off.
There's the arrogant tone, implying that people who don't agree with you simply need to be "educated".
There's the idea that you can't be sad about the trade and still think that it'll good for the A's in the long term. People understand that we got a good haul, in fact Beane probably swindled Kenny Williams for the upteenth time. This isn't all that relevant when it comes to how we feel about losing a favorite player.
Nick Swisher made the A's exciting. He has an attitude that makes him, and the team, a pleasure to watch. Not all of us see the team as a bunch of interchangeable, replaceable parts, as you seem to. Winning is not the only thing that matters in life, and the fact that you appear to believe otherwise is, frankly, pretty troubling.
I think you should delete this diary. It's inconsiderate and serves no purpose other than stirring the pot and causing division.
by harenshair on Jan 3, 2008 4:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Why should he delete it?
If you don't like it, don't read it. I'm not aware that pissing some people off with a different opinion, even an arrogant one, is against any rules here.
You disagreed with it just fine and explained your POV, which is part of the point.
If nobody ever stirred the pot and everyone agreed with each other, this would be an extremely boring and useless website.
by Flashfire on Jan 3, 2008 4:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cause the fighting ones are kinda fun?
I need help. :-)
by baseballgirl on Jan 3, 2008 4:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Because the point of this diary
Was to piss people off. When you title a diary "Cry me a river", you're basically declaring your desire to be antagonistic and confrontational. The point of this diary is that the trade will eventually prove beneficial for the A's. However, the way of making the point, by attacking (or at least talking down to) those who aren't 100% in favor of the trade, was completely uncalled for. Maybe the diary shouldn't be completely scrapped, but it should be rewritten in a way that is less strident and self-satisfied.
by harenshair on Jan 3, 2008 5:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I don't think it should be
edited or deleted. It's like a conversation - it was said. Perhaps Vacafan should retreat and apologize (as one possible opinion), and add that to the conversation, if he sees fit to do so. But what's said was said, and needn't be unsaid or altered.
by Nico on Jan 3, 2008 5:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He kind of did try to be
concilliatory.
"You're always the one to rein me in, dang it. LOL
No, it's the old man in me coming out ... I just really think we took Chicago to the cleaners today ... great, great trade for us ... and, like always, I want everyone to see things MY WAY! :-)"
That's the way some guys back down. ..and it's good enough in my book.
by IM4Oakgal on Jan 3, 2008 5:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I still disagree.
If I have an opinion to present, whether I'm stirring the pot or not, I'll present it the way I want to. If someone doesn't like my opinion or my methods of expressing it, there's no requirement they continue to read what I have to say. Feel free to self-censor yourself, but stay out of it when it comes to others or go to someone with an actual complaint about it.
by Flashfire on Jan 3, 2008 5:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not about censorship
If a diary is in poor taste, it's in poor taste. If that's recognized, then the person who wrote it should rectify the situation either by amending his diary or apologizing to the people that he declared to be crybabies who haven't got a clue what they're talking about.
I'm not saying that it's not okay for people to stir the pot with unpopular opinions about the Oakland A's. I'm saying that it's not okay to do it in a way that personally attacks other people on the site, which is what this one has done. And the "if you don't like what I'm saying, stop reading" argument is shallow and overused. As you said, if people didn't disagree and argue with one another, this site would be a boring place.
by harenshair on Jan 3, 2008 6:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it's a semantic quibble,
but I guess my point is that maybe he should add a "sorry I put this in an attacking way - what I meant to say was..." but that's different from altering or deleting something he felt at the time was appropriate. If upon reflection he feels differently, than add an amendment - but don't alter the original.
by Nico on Jan 3, 2008 6:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it's as in poor taste as you do.
For some, they probably needed to see a message like this whether they like it or not.
Why are we so worried about whether or not someone's tender sensibilities will be offended?
by Flashfire on Jan 3, 2008 6:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps Vacafan was a little insensitive but..
I pretty much agree with the logic of it. Another way of saying it: Would you rather the A's be pretty good with Haren and Swisher in 08 & 09, then suck from 2010 - 214? Or be not so good in 08 and turn around and be competitive from 09-2013?
by GusanoQuemador on Jan 3, 2008 4:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yep, but the wound is still fresh for some.
And I understand that.
by baseballgirl on Jan 3, 2008 4:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i absolutely agree
he's entitled to his opinion. if pt and grover can fight over nothing most of the time, vaca can write what he wants.
by flipgatey3 on Jan 3, 2008 5:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
excuse me
pt and monkeyball.
by flipgatey3 on Jan 3, 2008 5:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
excuse me
pt and FSU
by monkeyball on Jan 3, 2008 5:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
excuse me
PT and _______ (fill in)
by doctorK on Jan 3, 2008 5:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
excuse me
grover and oaktoon
by kaweahkaweah on Jan 3, 2008 7:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Excuse me
I'm not the guy who ran oaktoon out of AN.
Oaktoon vs. AN
by grover on Jan 4, 2008 6:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
excuse me
oaktoon and himself
oaktoon asked to be deleted.
by kaweahkaweah on Jan 4, 2008 10:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say oaktoon got banned
I said he got ran out. At the end, whenever he posted he got both barrels from just about everybody. It didn't matter what he said, he was attacked.
Did he set himself up for it? Not a doubt in my mind. Doesn't change what happened... AN turned on him.
by grover on Jan 4, 2008 10:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
excuse me
Oh wait...
Never mind, I agree that oaktoon was his own worst enemy around here.
by kaweahkaweah on Jan 4, 2008 10:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
excuse me
pt and everybody
by Nico on Jan 3, 2008 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow... the love here is overflowing
I'm thinking about investing in a sauna bath and some valentine's chocolates.
by PaulThomas on Jan 3, 2008 11:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm noticing a recurring theme here
by grover on Jan 3, 2008 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
;)
by flipgatey3 on Jan 3, 2008 6:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The content/analysis may be accurate,
but the diary is still insensitive, IMO, to the reality that there is more than one "right" way to root for a baseball team. You don't just have to root for the team to win as many games as possible - you can get attached to players you know best, love the players for the people they are, and get attached to them as players and/or people, rooting for them to perform at a winning level as much as possible. Why is that wrong? It's just different.
by Nico on Jan 3, 2008 5:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
the only thing I take exception to is...
I've never heard anyone say "the world is falling", lol.
by Cutthemullet on Jan 3, 2008 5:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Crap.
Did I write "world?" Lol. That kinda ruins the "drama" doesn't it??
by Vacafan on Jan 4, 2008 9:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
umm... the world is falling...
Since the world is going to end on December 21st, 2012, and Swisher was signed through 2012, we could have had him for his whole career!
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Jan 4, 2008 10:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
attention: salb918, grover, etc
you guys i believe are the stat heads, or anyone for that matter who can provide this information: is there really much of a statistical difference between dan johnson and swisher? dan johnson quietly had a decent season last year, while swisher hit about 15 less home runs and drove in less runs than his 2006 campaign. maybe i am way off though.
by bigmacattack on Jan 3, 2008 5:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
After normalizing for playing time ...
Dan Johnson was worth about 6 runs above average with the bat (BRAA). Nick Swisher was worth 23 runs above average.
Nick Swisher is also an asset in the field, Dan Johnson is pretty average.
All told, Swisher is about 2-3 wins better than DJ.
by devo on Jan 3, 2008 6:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Trouble is, unlike Swish
Dan Johnson can't play anywhere besides 1B and Barton is already there (with Chris Carter now behind him on the depth chart). Unless you mean Cust to the OF and Johnson to DH? But without a true plus CFer, I don't see Cust in the OFas viable defensively.
by Nico on Jan 3, 2008 6:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There is a pretty big difference
between the 2.
DJ's OBP last year was 349. That is not bad, but also unimpressive for a 1b.
Swisher's was 381. That 30 points of OBP makes a big difference.
Swisher's slugging is also about 40 points higher.
Walks, doubles also matter, not just HRs.
Defensively, DJ is so so at 1b, Swisher is good to very good in a corner.
Swisher is as good offensively as Carlos Lee, once you take into account home parks, and is much better defensively than Lee.
by rfloh on Jan 3, 2008 9:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
devo-thanks for the quick info. so everything is
not lost. although swisher is a more valuable asset in the field we may not lose too much offensively.
nico- i was thinking kotsay, buck, and denorfia/cust in the outfield-- yes and then have Johnson DH when Cust is in the field and then have Cust DH when Johnson is at 1st.
by bigmacattack on Jan 3, 2008 6:20 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I see. I guess that combo
looks to me to be pedestrian offensively (not horrible but not good) and kinda poor defensively. But we may be stuck with that no matter what!
by Nico on Jan 3, 2008 6:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
DJ is a useful player ...
but it's certainly a significant downgrade. 2-3 wins out of win player is a pretty significant difference.
by devo on Jan 3, 2008 6:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll miss Swish ...
On an emotional level, it does kinda suck when a fan favorite leaves a team. Those of us that form an attachment to particular players need some kinda mourning period. Afterall, being a sports fan for a lot of people mean rooting for specific players, not just the uniform. Think Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Shaq, etc. At an analytical level (and my gf thinks I think analytically too much and not enough emotionally), I know this is a good trade for '08 onwards. That said - the immediate impact is this - we lose a fan favorite, and get worse for 2007. It's kinda like losing a grandparent. You know that they were consuming more resources than they're giving back, so the world gets a better net resource-wise, but it still sucks the day you lose a grandparent.
by Rickeyfan on Jan 3, 2008 6:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
rebuilding, Swish trade, reaction to Vacafan...
Of course people have differing reactions to A's news--each of us comes from a different perspective in regards to "A's fanhood". Like Vacafan and many others, I am "old school", with memories of Catfish, Vida, Reggie, etc. just as clear in my mind as those of Swish & Haren. We have been through lean times before, and we have always resurfaced to compete again. MLB is not college football--a team cannot play .500 ball in the AL, get invited to the Weedeater Bowl, and feel like we've had a successful year. It's not about being "adequate" or "respectable"--it's about trying to get the team in a position to compete for rings, and I think BB is doing a solid job of that with these first 2 trades. There was NO WAY IN HE** this team was going to be in the running for ANYTHING this year--so why not aim for the future? Our farm system used to produce great talent--let's get back to that.
I agree completely with Vacafan's take on this trade--we got a very nice package in this deal and these guys will hopefully be key pieces in the next rebirth. Whether one agrees with how he expressed that opinion is another issue. "Old Schoolers" have more than 3 decades of experience of dealing with the shock/pain of our favorite players moving on--we have built up a "tolerance" to this form of suffering, and no longer have strong reactions to these eventualities. However, being a fan means different things to different people, and it's important to respect that. I personally thought the diary was a bit condescending, but I can see how others would react much more negatively to it. We are all on the same side, and anytime someone asserts that they have the ONLY truth about something, no one benefits.
I hope BB doesn't stop here. If Ellis is in fact projected to hit 25HR/70 RBI, perhaps someone would be interested in giving us something of value for him. Street should be shipped ASAP before his arm falls off and he loses all of his trade value. I hope BB will be patient with Blanton discussions, because he may be able to get us more in the spring (when someone in some contender's camp blows out a shoulder and they come crawling to BB for help) than the lukewarm packages that have been popping up in rumor threads. Embree will get us something. My greatest hope is that Chavez can fool the league into thinking he's healthy again so that we can get something in return for him and jettison his albatross contract.
It's just too bad the ChiSox are out of decent prospects, because Kenny Williams seems like an easy mark...lol
by kitoko on Jan 3, 2008 7:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
firmly agreed
I have to commend Vaca for the "somebody had to say it" diary, because honestly every A's fan knows that when they became "apart" of the team that transactions like these were going to happen.
The same thing happened on this website when Mulder and Hudson were dealt, but the fact of the matter is that it helped the team.
Seriously people this isn't some daytime soap opera, this is business.
by Oaklanda12 on Jan 3, 2008 7:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let it all hang out.
And why not. Nick Swisher was a credit to the A's and to the Bay Area community. He was a fun loving guy that we identified with. I attended the Nick Swisher Bash and saw what he could do in raising funds for the community. He was an intregal part of the A's success in 2006.
The trade came out of the blue. No one had a chance to emotionally prepare for it. Stunned in a good word to express how we feel.
Putting your emotions aside what would you do if you were Billy Beane and faced Chicago's offer?
by jarforcefatherofforce on Jan 3, 2008 9:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The Swisher trade.
Hopefully the prospects will pan out. Hopefully we don't get a Jose Ortiz, Doug Jennings, and Rob Nelson types in return. I think Blanton is next to get traded.
by jayberwanger on Jan 3, 2008 10:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
nothing would surprise me
I don't think Blanton will go until a good offer comes. Swish supposedly wasn't being shopped, but Chicago came calling with a good offer.
If this tells us anything it's that we can't predict the order of upcoming trades.
This is in part why I asked in my DLD how people feel about surprises.
by OaklandSi on Jan 4, 2008 2:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would apologize to all who feel "attacked"
but I gotta tell you, if a stupid rant/post on a baseball blog really offends some of you to this degree, I think you take it faaaaar too seriously.
"If you're bummed, you need to pick up a prospectus and educate yourself." This is the only "direct" shot (I guess) you could say I took ... I think some of us define "attack" differently, because this doesn't really qualify in my book. Any apology at this point would come off insincere, but "I'm sorry" if you feel personally attacked because of this.
Let me ask you this ... say you get a phone call from a guy in Minnesota -- it's mid-January, and he's outraged,angered, frustrated because it's snowing. He goes on and on about how down and low he feels. Well, I guess you could feel sympathy for his plight, but wouldn't you kind of wonder what the heck he expected?? It snows in January in Minnesota. He knew this before he moved there. I don't have a lot of patience for his hand-wringing ... unless you just became an A's fan in the last year or two, I wonder how you don't know this is going to happen. Nick Swisher is 823 on the list -- and there'll be 800 guys who come and go after him. This is what the A's do!!! I like Nick Swisher, I think he's great, and I'm sorry to see him go. But I felt that way about Tejada, Blue, Hunter, Henderson, Stewart, and on and on and on and on and on and on. So to read all the posts about "pain," and "sense of loss," and the like just kind of makes me shake my head a bit.
I'm not talking about the posts that mention a feeling of sadness -- I'm talking about the ones that express feelings of shock or anger.
So I responded spur of the moment ... this trade makes the A's better ... lots better ... this trade helps my team. I want my team to win. It snows in Minnesota. Live with it.
by Vacafan on Jan 4, 2008 9:46 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'd liken it more to a break-up ...
all the signs were there. In retrospect, you kind of knew it was coming. But that doesn't make it hurt any less.
by devo on Jan 4, 2008 9:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Having dated the snow
in Minnesota in January and had it break up with me to marry the rain in Duluth in November, I can say that you're both right.
by Nico on Jan 4, 2008 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Notes to Nico:
1 -- Duluth is in Minnesota, Cindi, and
2 -- last/only time I was there, it snowed in June. I suspect the November precip takes similar form.
3 -- isn't N-E-body looking forward to watching these kids develop? I think this is gonna be a fun year, remembering the excitement of watching Buck grow up before our eyes -- from longshot to mainstay, and Barton surprise us.
By September, we may all feel like proud parents. In the meantime, I foresee a few AN Days at Raley Field or the Stockyards when the varsity is on the road.
All we need to make the coming season fun is a little perspective that's longer than our collective ... nose.
by The Dogfather on Jan 5, 2008 8:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"Duluth"
Can you imagine if that was the name of a real place! Very funny, GodFather!!! :-))))))
-Cindi
by Nico on Jan 5, 2008 9:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you kiddin'?
Not only does Duluth exist -- it's so cool, it's way past Superior!!!!
by The Dogfather on Jan 5, 2008 10:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's eerie.
by Nico on Jan 5, 2008 8:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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