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USA Today: Santana a Met

USA Today broke the news that Santana has been dealt for four prospects to the Mets--Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra, and Kevin Mulvey. Not included in the deal is Mets number one prospect Fernando Martinez.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseb...

This sure makes the Haren deal look solid. But it also raises a couple of questions. Will Beane still try to trade Blanton, or wait until he can get more for him?

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Not an entirely accurate summary
The deal is on hold pending the Mets reaching an extension with Santana.

As for moving Blanton, the Mets were the most interested party in Cupcakes.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 29, 2008 1:44 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

This deal seems bad for the Twins

Seems like they could've held out for more by waiting longer, say the trade deadline. I'm liking the Haren deal a whole lot more now.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Jan 29, 2008 1:50 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I agree
I wonder if the Diamondbacks are thinking they should have held out for Santana.

by Eggman on Jan 29, 2008 1:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not a chance

They don't have the money to re-sign Santana, which is a precondition to him even approving the deal.

Their only other option was Bedard, and it's increasingly looking like they'd have had to give up Chris Young (and probably Brett Anderson and Max Scherzer) to get him, thanks to Bavasi's inexplicable insistence on overpaying and refusal to trade within the division.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 2:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I blame Ryan for that one

He gave Santana whip hand by inexplicably granting him a no-trade clause (despite him being pre-free agency). Santana was not interested in changing teams mid-season.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 1:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Inexplicably?

Maybe Santana doesn't sign that deal without the no trade.

When he signed that deal, he had 4 years of service time, and was coming off 2 1/2 fantastic seasons.

The contract has been a bargain for the Twins.

It's Bill Smith's fault that he made this trade. It's Bill Smith's fault that he just gave $104M to Justin Morneau and Michael Cuddyer.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 29, 2008 2:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You know what...

you're right.

I hadn't realized his contract went into his free agency years. I didn't know he had so much service time.

Given that, yeah, you've got to blame Smith for not taking the better packages when they were on the table.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 2:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I dont know...

I have to imagine the market for a full season of Johanna is a lot more than at the deadline.  Also harder to get an extension worked out mid-season.  I dont think they had a choice, but I think they screwed up not just taking the Yankee or Red Sox original deals...seemed to be more high end prospects in those.

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Jan 29, 2008 1:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Johanna

Are you trying to bait me into another Dylan adaptation?

It'd have to be non-A's-centric -- from the Yanks/Sox perspective.

Maybe I'll finally make Deadspin!

The best that can be said about this is that it's imaginative. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 29, 2008 2:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Santana had issues with a deadline deal

He's willing to sign an extension now, which increases his trade value. He's not so willing to sign an extension at the deadline.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 29, 2008 2:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I can't believe they didn't get Martinez.

I mean, seriously, giving up the best pitcher in baseball and not getting a team's #1 prospect?

by mikev on Jan 29, 2008 1:58 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Martinez is not a CF

Gomez is, and in spite of what PT thinks of him is going to be a good player. Guerra might be the Mets best SP prospect and Mulvey projects to be at least a Blanton clone.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 29, 2008 2:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

His K rate is much lower than Blanton's

and his walk rate is higher.

I don't see how he projects to be "at least" a clone of anything, even Jason Windsor. Could he break out? Sure. Right now his minor league numbers are worse than Kirk Saarloos's.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 3:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This guy?

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/playe...

Compare his minor league numbers to Blanton's and Saarloos's. He doesn't come off well in the comparison.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 3:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Look at age/level

Mulvey's AA numbers as a 22 year old may pale in comparison to Blanton's Low-A numbers but they're not that far from Blanton's AAA numbers. Mulvey's stuff is at least on par with Blanton's (and a lot better then Saarloos') and is scheduled for AAA next year.

Mulvey put up good numbers for his 1st full pro season, especially for a guy starting in AA.

Sickels gave Blanton a B+ after his 2004 season (AAA) and is giving Mulvey a B/B+ grade heading into 2008. BA projects Mulvey as a 3, which is roughly where they were projecting Blanton after 2004. I say roughly because they refer to him as an innings eater, they didn't specify a rotation slot.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 29, 2008 5:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, as you know...

I'm not much of an age/level fetishist. As long as you're below the "standard college progression" of A at 21, AA at 22, AAA at 23, MLB at 24, you're doing well-- and I don't give guys a lot of extra points in terms of their stats for being way below "normal age." (Scouting reports are a different beast, particularly when it comes to power, but this is really a stats discussion.)

Thought experiment: let's suppose Mulvey's numbers were actually identical to Blanton's through the first year and a half of their careers. (I think they're worse, but that's not important here.) It would still be inaccurate to say that Mulvey was going to equal Blanton (much less be "at least Blanton," but I can't imagine you literally meant that he had zero chance to be worse than Blanton) for two reasons:

  1. Minor league numbers are less predictive than major league numbers.
  1. Even if they were equally predictive, Mulvey might get injured in the next 4 years.
cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 5:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't want to know your fetishes

And I'm not sure what your arguement is. Blanton put up his best numbers as a 22 year old in Low-A ball. Mulvey was in AA at 22. Blanton was in AAA when he was 23, Mulvey will be 23 and in AAA next year. Sound pretty comparable to me.

And not giving extra credit to guys who do well at a young age (say an 18 year old posting league average numbers at AA) is foolish. Or maybe pig-headed. Something less then good.

As for your thought experiment... it's rubish. Mulvey has had success at AA, why would it take him 4 years to jump from AA success to the big leagues? And does making the Show mean injuries no longer happen? Whatever universe that is, I'd like to see the A's play their home games there. Please!

Maybe it would clear things up if I explained "at least" Blanton. There are several views on how good Blanton is. Some (mostly A's fans) consider him an ideal #2. Many (including me) think of him as a #3. Most (probably a slight majority, they see his 2006 numbers and go YECH) consider him a #4. So I don't consider Blanton a #2 and Mulvey has too many questions to give him that ceiling. HOWEVER, 1 year in the minors does not a ceiling make. Now that he's had a year to experience a professional workload it will be interesting to see if his stuff improves in 2008. If it does, if he gets his fastball back into the 91-93, touching 96 range that he showed in college then you'd have to push his ceiling higher.

Will that happen? I don't know, we'll see in 2008. But as of now, Mulvey's ceiling is at least that of Blanton's... a #3 SP.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 29, 2008 6:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Let me clarify

Of course I don't think it will take Mulvey 4 years to become a major league pitcher. I do think it will take 4 years for Mulvey to become a major league pitcher with 3+ years' experience, which is what Blanton is. (I suppose he could get called up out of spring training, in which case it would only take 3 years.)

Blanton's already provided a lot of value to the A's, and it will take Mulvey quite some time to match that if he's pitching at more or less the same level. During that time period, there's a very real risk that he could get hurt.

I really don't object to the statement that his ceiling is similar to Blanton's current ceiling. I think he's considerably less likely to reach that ceiling, on account of still being a prospect. I also think that Blanton's ceiling was higher in the 2003 offseason than both his own current ceiling and Mulvey's. (That's pretty natural. Most players who have played 3 years in the majors will have lower ceilings than they did when they were still prospects.)

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 7:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Now the 4 years bit makes sense

Blanton did have a higher ceiling after 2003, back then he was routinely pumping 93-94 MPH fastballs. He lost some zip as he progressed up the chain.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 29, 2008 7:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, i remember blanton supposedly threw harder

any idea as to what happened? when he was drafted, he used to throw in the mid 90's. now, he usually doesn't get above 91 or so. did he just lose zip? did he decide to sacrifice speed for placement and movement?

"welcome to ME, motherf*^*er!" - tim hudson

by guy incognito on Jan 29, 2008 10:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're on the right track

Blanton dialed back for control/sink/movement. The increased workload could have been a factor as well.

I've seen Blanton dial it up to 92-93, but only when he wants to bust a RH hitter up and in. And I've only seen him do it to the very best, like Vlad and Manny.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 29, 2008 11:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

that's right

I've seen his fastball occasionally hit 94 on occasion in a key moment (coliseum radar gun, which might be 2 mph too fast, at least it's faster than the announced radar guns on national broadcasts).

by OaklandSi on Jan 30, 2008 6:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fetishes?

I wouldn't mind hearing.

by ChrisCEIT on Jan 29, 2008 7:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

GB rate

His GB rate explains, at least partly his ridiculously low home run rate, and why he projects decently.

55% GBs in AA at age 22 in 2007, most recent season.

Windsor in his most recent season in AAA had a 45% GB rate in AAA in 2007.

ZIPS loves him, too much IMO, projecting a 4.17 ERA for him in 2008. For comparison, it projects John Maine to a 4.15 ERA.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 29, 2008 3:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

yeesh

are you serious? zips can do some weird things sometimes. i think they gave (in comparison) chuck lofgren a 6 era. his stats, IIRC are better than mulvey's.

President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Jan 29, 2008 6:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hello everyone.

I'm a newcomer here. Well, in a way. I've been checking this site out for a couple of months now. I guess I am primarily what you guys would call a 'lurker'. On to my point. I have to say, with all the posturing the twins have done recently, I really expected them to come out of this with a better return. Not to knock the mets' prospects, but it seems to me that they should have been able to get more for johann freakin' santana. Especially since everyone knows the mets desperately needed a front of the rotation starter. I really think they could have held out and got F-Mart included in the deal. Then again, i'm not privy to what kind of discussions the clubs have had.

by OrlandoAsFan on Jan 29, 2008 2:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

howdy!
"Don't be an ass!" --Bill King

by batgirl on Jan 29, 2008 9:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

did the Red Sox offer fall through?

that was a better package than this one. the Twins must really like Gomez for some reason.

Brian Sabean lol.

by rebus on Jan 29, 2008 2:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

C'mon

He's a speedy guy who might just manage to post a slugging percentage under .400.

How could the Twins NOT want him?

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 2:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Red Sox were still in play

But Boston wouldn't compromise.

Sure, you could say Lester is the better pitching prospect then either Guerra or Mulvey (well, at least he's big league ready and somewhat proven) but the back end of that package was blah.

Ellsbury over Gomez? Sure. But Guerra + Mulvey beat the arms Boston was willing to include.

If Boston had been willing to strengthen the back end of either package the Mets would have bit.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 29, 2008 2:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Boston shouldn't compromise...

They put a good deal out there and were pretty sure the Yankees weren't going to get him, so screw it if he goes to the NL, right?

"The more self-centered and egotistical a guy is, the better ballplayer he's going to be."- Bill "The Spaceman" Lee

by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Jan 30, 2008 12:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Boston didn't need Santana

He was a luxury item. If they could get him at their price a deal makes sense, if not, their rotation was already set.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 30, 2008 12:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good job Mets

Great job for the Mets. They have managed to acquire the top outfielder (Well Matt Holliday is probably the best hitting outfielder) and top pitcher in MLB in the last 3 years.

They gave up some meh prospects as others have said.

It makes me appreciate our organization and the trades we have mad much more.

I like all of the young pitchers we acquired (Andersion, DL Santos, and Gio Gonzales) much better than any of those pitchers.

I know people are high on Guerra, but I would like to see a better strikeout rate.
Guerra 2007-89 IP/66 SO 50% GB rate

by apilgrim on Jan 29, 2008 2:08 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

guerra

also supposedly has no offspeed pitch to speak of. can anyone confirm/refute this, i can't remember where i read it

President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Jan 29, 2008 6:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's incorrect

Scouts argue over which is his better pitch, his low-90's fastball or his change-up. A change-up is most certainly an offspeed pitch.

He struggles with his breaking ball (curve, incase you were wondering).

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 29, 2008 6:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i should have clarified
but thank you grover. i meant the breaking ball, not "offspeed". i guess technically not the same thing. i never considered a changeup "offspeed"...even though it is. to me, it's a changeup.
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Jan 29, 2008 6:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I have heard

he has a nice changeup. He's a big young man at 6'5" 200 lbs (probably a little skinny).

There was a scout talking on mlb.radio (Under the Lights show about 1 hour and 40 minutes into the program) that went into detail about all the prospects.
About Guerra he said "he's a big young kid that throws hard but has trouble throwing in the strike zone. There are alot of kids like this though." Pretty good interview, that scout was very pessimistic.

I refreshed my memory with a look at the stats of the guys the Twins got, and Guerra was one of the "buzz" guys. I saw he was 17 (don't they have labor laws for that?) and I also saw he didn't have a so/9 rate of over 9. Its not the end all be all, but its the first thing I look at among the peripherals.

Not saying that he wont be a good pro, just saying if my team trades our top player and we get back 3 pitchers, none of which have strike out more than a batter an inning on average, my skeptical side come out.

Of course the Twins are great at developing talent.

by apilgrim on Jan 29, 2008 7:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed
that's the first thing i look for as well.
President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Jan 29, 2008 9:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm glad Johan is NL-bound

The Minneapolis Star-Trib is running an online poll that shows 80% of Twins fans think they got hosed.

Beane went on to liken the Winter Meetings to pet hamsters who eat their young.

by Englishmajor on Jan 29, 2008 2:56 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Eh

80% of all fans think they got hosed on every trade.

Remember when Urban said the mail he was getting was 4-1 against the Swisher trade?

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 3:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Tired math.
Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com - Stop by and mock me for getting my domain stolen.

by Ozzz on Jan 29, 2008 4:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I agree it is nice

to see Santana go to the NL.  

by china bob on Jan 29, 2008 6:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This trade shows why

People were wrong to think that the A's should hold out for a "better deal" in the Haren trade.  Failure to finish a trade based on the hope that the other team will up its offer can result in what appears to have happened here: teams move on and decide they don't want to deal with you anymore.  

Minnesota overplayed its hand, and now it had to settle for a package that is inferior to what they apparently were offered months ago.  Maybe Minnesota really thinks Gomez is the cat's meow, and maybe they're right.  Boston and New York had more to offer, and Minnesota got stuck with an inferior offer in my opinion.    

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 29, 2008 3:30 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

This looks

like a Minnesota scouting vs statheads type trade.

They like toolsy players, and have been rumoured to really like Gomez for some time. I would argue that they probably value Gomez (much) more highly than most statheads.

Guerra is another "toolsy" type, big frame, young for his level.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 29, 2008 3:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agree

Gomez is absolutely a Minnesota type of player, and I guess you could say Guerra is as well -- although Minnesota tends to value pitchability very highly over just raw physicality.  It's certainly possible that this was the deal Minnesota wanted all along, but it appears to me as an outside observer that Minnesota held out for a better deal and then took an inferior trade when New York bowed out and largely ended Boston's interest.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 29, 2008 3:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Guerra's

best pitch interestingly is his changeup, which is very good.

His projection lies in assuming that as he ages and fills out, his fastball will start becoming good to very good, due to his height.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 29, 2008 4:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

right

to whoever replies to my post above, i meant a breaking ball as an offspeed pitch. should have mentioned this.

President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Jan 29, 2008 6:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not really

The A's did get a better deal when they waited to move Haren. They knew that Chicago was interested in Swisher before they moved Haren and the best prospects the White Sox had were Gio and DLS. That let Oakland push for better hitters in their deal with Arizona (which was the real strength of that farm system) because they knew they had a shot at better arms coming down the road.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 29, 2008 5:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

even though it's not quite a done deal just yet

it's not surprising that this gets done before the Bedard deal.

by OaklandSi on Jan 29, 2008 3:40 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Carlos vs Carlos?

Do most of you consider Carlos Gonzalez the better prospect...or Carlos Gomez?

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jan 29, 2008 3:45 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I like Gonzalez much more

Gomez has an incredibly high ceiling, however, if he ever actually approaches it.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 29, 2008 3:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Gonzalez more

Both are toolsy and have high ceilings, but Gonzalez has put up much better stats thus far.

Just look at their career minor league numbers...

Gomez: .278/.339/.399/.738
Gonzalez: .286/.34/.476/.817

by Zonis on Jan 29, 2008 4:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

CF Defense

and speed go in favor of Gomez though... Still it seems Gonzalez has much more "superstar" potential.. and when you factor in the 3 other players the Twins got against the 5 the A's got... I assume most feel the A's got a better package for Haren than the Twins got for Santana... Correct?

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jan 29, 2008 4:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

IMO, yes

I like Gonzalez better than Gomez, Anderson better than Guerra, plus we get position players like Carter and Cunningham that I believe are better bets than the two other pitchers the Twins got.  

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 29, 2008 4:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i thought

Carter was a draft pick.

by Borbass on Jan 29, 2008 5:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Might you be confusing him with Corey Brown?

They're similar types of hitters.

Carter was definitely acquired in the Haren deal.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 5:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gomez isn't all that

He has virtually the same minor league numbers as Juan Pierre. I get that he might one day be a useful player, but speedy guys who don't hit for power and aren't on base all that much aren't actually that valuable.

by MrIncognito on Jan 30, 2008 4:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gomez isn't all that

but his minor league numbers are not virtually the same as Pierre's.  

At age 20, Pierre was in the NWL at A-, putting up an OPS of 798, relative to a league average of 736, 38 SB, 9 CS. Couldn't find his EQA on BPro.

At age 20, Gomez was in the Eastern at AA, an OPS of 773 relative to a league average 703, 41 SB, 9 CS; BPro gave him a 267 EQA, 260 is average.

At age 21, Pierre was at A in the Sally, putting up an OPS of 751, relative to a league average of 698, 66 SB, 19 CS.

At age 21, Gomez was in the PCL at AAA, in 157 PA, in a pitcher's park in a hitter's league, a 777 OPS relative to a league average of 783, 17 SB, 4 CS. BPro gave him an EQA of 274, 260 is average.

Gomez also played in the majors at age 21, 56 OPS+, clearly nowhere close to being ready as a hitter.

The numbers are virtually the same, IF you pretend that age and level don't matter at all. At the same ages, Gomez has consistently outperformed Pierre.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 30, 2008 6:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gomez was a Latin prospect

Pierre came out of college.

You might, if you were so inclined, think that perhaps the latter had more to do with where Pierre was at age 20 than their actual respective skill levels.

I think prospectophiles, or at least the typical set, seriously overvalue extreme youth. Gomez is 20? Fabulous. He's also never once in his career posted numbers that are even suggestive of being a plus option in the major leagues.

The guy's been playing professional baseball for some time. He's probably not fully developed physically, so his power might come along (but it's got a long way to go). But players of his age hit for a high average all the time, and he hasn't done so.

As far as I can tell, the guy is roughly a AA player right now (in terms of "level at which he would probably post numbers suggestive of major league success"). Being a AA player in Year 5 of pro ball, at age 21, is really not that fabulous.

The advantage of being very young, to me, is that you have mulligan years. Even if you fail in your first attempt at a league, you've got time to retry it. Gomez's lost season last year did not knock him off the prospect track, in the way that, say, Kevin Melillo's seemed to. But it didn't enhance his value, either.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 30, 2008 9:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Firstly, it's not just

prospectophiles that value youth. Statheads do too. Bill James (over)values youth. Look at the list of top young players he released recently. A gross overemphasis on youth and age. Look at the fact that PECOTA, ZIPS all factor in ageing patterns and youth into their projections.

Ignore age, and you end up overrating the Todd Lindens. Ignore age, you end up underrating the Jose Reyes.

"Being a AA player in Year 5 of pro ball, at age 21, is really not that fabulous."

This argument would be more valid if collegians like Pierre are not playing baseball very seriously in college. Pierre, while in college, was also growing "older" in terms of "training age". He wasn't sitting on his butt, writing computer code.

Or are you arguing that teams when drafting college players should ignore those college players record?

Gomez produced above average offense at AAA at age 21. Most 21 year old players are at A+. The compared player, Pierre, was at A.

At similar ages, Gomez matched Pierre's production, despite playing at higher levels.

For example, at age 20, Gomez' AA performance was equal to Pierre's A- performance.

Other players certainly have outperformed Gomez. That does not change that Gomez' numbers are very similar to Pierre only you pretend that age AND level does not matter at all.

I'm not saying that Gomez is anything great. I am saying that his numbers in the minors are not very similar to Juan Pierre's.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 30, 2008 11:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm going to object to this statement
Gomez produced above average offense at AAA at age 21.

It was 36 games. I'm sorry, but 36 games does not a season make. His overall numbers for the season, once you include the MLB numbers to get it to a semi-decent sample size, were horrendous.

I don't know where you're getting these straw men like "ignore age and level," and "ignore college players' record." (Particularly the latter one. It's precisely my point that a guy who's a stud in college at 20 may well be a better prospect than a guy who's replacement level at AA at the same age.) And I didn't make the Pierre comp. It's a pretty weird comp anyway, since Pierre hit for higher averages and lower power than Gomez.

Look, there are two key factors here that a lot of people don't seem to really recognize. One is that players who are awesome in college in their first year can't be drafted after that year. They're basically forced to remain "at the same level" for three years. That doesn't mean they're bad players. A college guy with similar skills to a high-schooler will reach the majors later. So what? He has similar skills.

The other thing is that teams have to rush Latin and HS prospects harder because of the Rule 5 draft. College juniors are Rule 5 eligible at 24. Latin guys are eligible at 20! By the time the college guys are rule 5 eligible, the Latin guys are out of options. The mere fact of a guy playing (and sucking) at a higher level often has more to do with how long the team has to control him than it does with the guy's skill level. Javier Herrera is not as good a prospect as Jermaine Mitchell right now, yet he has to play at a higher level because he's almost out of options. It's a desperation move.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 30, 2008 12:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, you didn't make the Pierre

comp.

My initial response was to the Pierre comp. It is completely invalid. That's my point. You agree?

"I don't know where you're getting these straw men like "ignore age and level,"

So you agree that age and level matter? And it's not some fetish where prospectophiles seriously overvalue youth?

"Look, there are two key factors here that a lot of people don't seem to really recognize. One is that players who are awesome in college in their first year can't be drafted after that year. They're basically forced to remain "at the same level" for three years. That doesn't mean they're bad players."

In that case, once the college player gets out of college and reaches pro ball, he should match the high school player, yes? He should move quickly through the low minors to the point where he is matching the HS player, yes? And not be spending years struggling at a level, before finally playing well when he is a few years older than his competition?

"A college guy with similar skills to a high-schooler will reach the majors later. So what? He has similar skills."

Because skills are not fixed the moment a player reaches the majors. Players who reach the majors can still improve. A player who reaches the majors at 22 has more time to get experience, to adjust, to learn before the inevitable injuries and physical decline sets in than a player who reaches the majors at 26.

"The other thing is that teams have to rush Latin and HS prospects harder because of the Rule 5 draft. College juniors are Rule 5 eligible at 24. Latin guys are eligible at 20! By the time the college guys are rule 5 eligible, the Latin guys are out of options. The mere fact of a guy playing (and sucking) at a higher level often has more to do with how long the team has to control him than it does with the guy's skill level. Javier Herrera is not as good a prospect as Jermaine Mitchell right now, yet he has to play at a higher level because he's almost out of options. It's a desperation move."

Yeah, that's why people look at the stats AND age AND level. Not just age. Nor just stats. Nor just level.

"His overall numbers for the season, once you include the MLB numbers to get it to a semi-decent sample size, were horrendous."

Yes, as a 21 year old in MLB. Players like Brandon Jones, Felix Pie, Carlos Quentin posted MLB numbers that were as bad or worse despite being older, in some cases 3 years older.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 30, 2008 1:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There's a blockquote function

It helps a lot, especially when you're going point-by-point.

So you agree that age and level matter? And it's not some fetish where prospectophiles seriously overvalue youth?

Um, yes. Duh. Otherwise you'd see me posting lengthy articles about 27-year-old stars in A ball.

My exact quote was "I don't give guys a lot of extra points in terms of their stats for being way below 'normal age.'" To put that in slightly different terms, the added/subtracted value of age diminishes as a player gets further and further from league median.

To reduce it to absurdity, there's barely any difference between a 27-year-old and a 26-year-old in A+ ball. There's also not much difference between a 17-year-old and an 18-year-old at A+. There IS a significant difference between someone who's 21 and someone who's 22.

In that case, once the college player gets out of college and reaches pro ball, he should match the high school player, yes? He should move quickly through the low minors to the point where he is matching the HS player, yes? And not be spending years struggling at a level, before finally playing well when he is a few years older than his competition?

Here, it depends on your theory of prospect development. Are you a "developmentalist," or an "emergencist"?

The developmental theory says that prospects mostly improve over time as they learn baseball skills, such that rising through levels is akin to getting a new belt color in martial arts.

The emergence theory says that prospects are primarily engaged in competitive winnowing in the minors, and that the progression from lower to higher levels mirrors the progression of players' physical tools. Promotion here is more or less akin to the Peter Principle-- keep promoting guys until they're bad, and once they get good, promote them again.

If you're a developmentalist, you'd expect college guys to move through the minors not a lot faster than high-schoolers. They still have to master A, A+, AA and AAA, since college was not as competitive. If you're an emergencist, you would expect that college players would rapidly rise to near the level of their high-school counterparts of similar talent and age levels.

It sounds like you're basically an emergencist. I'm not sure where I stand, mostly because I don't know that I've seen enough data to develop a coherent opinion. I can tell I'm definitely closer to developmentalism than you or grover is, though.

Unfortunately, it's hard to have a controlled experiment here. Most GMs and minor league managers are developmentalists (otherwise, why enter the field?); most statheads are emergencists. Seems like analyzing promotion patterns and success rates would make some damned interesting articles for BP or THT, though.

Yes, as a 21 year old in MLB. Players like Brandon Jones, Felix Pie, Carlos Quentin posted MLB numbers that were as bad or worse despite being older, in some cases 3 years older.

I don't have a BP subscription, but I'd encourage you to convert those full-season numbers into an EqA at the AA level. I'd be surprised if it was more than about .285, which is unspectacular for a 21-year-old in AA.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 30, 2008 4:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Excuse me

I wasn't going to cut in but I thought something needed clarification.

Gomez was 20 years old in 2006 when he played in AA.

Last year Gomez split the year between AAA and ML. I'm not sure which 21 year old AA player you're referring to, but it can't be Carlos Gomez.

Proceed.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 30, 2008 5:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, what I'm saying is this

If a 21-year-old produced a (non-difficulty-adjusted) EqA of .285 in AA, he would be considered a decent but not spectacular prospect, particularly if he was injured for half the year.

If a 21-year-old produces numbers at AAA and MLB that (once you translate them to AA difficulty levels) would also produce a AA EqA of .285, I contend that his prospect status is basically identical.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 30, 2008 5:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting... but, No

First off, quit trying to push Gomez back to AA. He passed that test back in 2006. It wasn't an A+ performance, but a +10 OPS as a 20 year old in a league you've said is an ideal challenge for a 22 year old earns that 20 year old player a ticket to AAA.

That point is not open to debate.

Last year, Gomez matched his AA numbers while playing at a more difficult level in AAA. He struggled when he debuted in the Show.

This is simply re-capping Gomez's 2007 season.

You're comparison of two 21-year olds ignores the obvious. The 21 year old who produced against AAA and ML pitching has already faced the reality of big league baseball. He has already seen the best of the best and is learning to overcome the adversity. His experience sets him ahead of the other 21 year old, the big league experience places him further on the learning curve then his twin.

This is a gap that can be closed, of course, but to say that they are identical at this time is false. The prospect with big league experience is clearly ahead of the other.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 30, 2008 6:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I can make an equally subjective argument

for why the AA guy is a better prospect.

First off, he isn't being rushed, something which is known to have a negative effect on prospects (and the effects of which we've seen in any number of guys who've come through Oakland in the past year or so, from Murphy to Dee Brown to Jeff Fiorentino) and which, if nothing else, reduces their value by eating up options (which, in turn, forces the team to rush them even more).

Secondly, he's experiencing success. Many organizations, including the A's, have said that they want their prospects to develop a competitive edge through playing winning baseball-- and a big part of that is contributing in a positive way to a minor league team, instead of simply floating along in a private world of "tools". He knows what it's like to kick ass. When he gets promoted, it's because he's earned it.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 30, 2008 8:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing subjective in the discussion

You're mistaking the lack of numbers as creating a subjective arguement. If the numbers don't matter, which is essentially what you're saying, then the production or "success" your AA prospect has peovides no benefit towards his development. In fact, his success could mask his struggles.

If both players need work on hitting quality curveballs then the player who sees more pitches of that ilk should improve quicker then the other. A guy in AA might face 1 pitcher in 10 who can throw his curve for strikes, the odds are closer to every other pitcher in the Show can throw a curveball for a strike. (I am, of course, pulling numbers out of the air but the point should be fairly obvious.) The AA batter could make zero improvment in hitting curveballs but his success against weaker pitching could mask that deficiency. Eventually the big league hitter would do what almost all big league hitters do... adapt or lose their job.

Don't get me wrong, I'm against rushing prospects. I've said repeatedly that the Mets did Gomez a disservice by moving him so aggressively and if I had had my way and the A's had acquired Gomez via trade I'd want him in Sac in 2008. He'd have to perform so well that even you would say nice things about him before he'd get the call to Oakland.

My point is much more basic then that. Your example of the 21 year old twins, the one where you say the numbers don't matter, is incorrect. My example goes to prove that point, if you prefer to use your own example (like the one you just used, the one that spawned this response) then that's fine with me. Just as long as someone drives a stake through the heart of your earlier statement that the two prospects would have nearly identical status.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 30, 2008 9:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll weigh in ...

I'm kind of in the middle.

At this point, assuming in terms of tools, scouts opinions, etc, they are equal, the more advanced prospect is ... well ... different.

He's provided us with two very different data points. One in AAA (where he succeeded) and one in MLB (where he failed). The AAA success tells us (in a very limited fashion, given limited PT) that he has what it takes to succeed at that level. That's a point in his favor. The MLB experience, though, tells us that he is not such an elite prospect that he could succeed despite a significant jump in competition.

Albert Pujols went more or less straight from A ball to the Majors. That told us that he may have been good enough to become Albert Pujols. Carlos Gonzalez has shown that he probably is not that good. That's hardly an indictment, but it's something.

So, basically, we have more knowledge about Carlos Gonzalez than his unpromoted doppelganger. That knowledge tells us that he is more likely to have the ability to successfully take the next step, but that he doesn't have the same potential for star level upside that he might have.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Jan 30, 2008 10:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Firstly, as Grover has said

20 years old. Not 21.

Secondly, even if Gomez was 21, there's a difference between a CF hitting a 285 EQA at AA with great D and say a 1b / DH hitting a 285 EQA at AA.

That is why most people actually look at several factors and not just blindly look at the most recent year's stats.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 30, 2008 10:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

...it's the same player

Whatever his D, position, etc., it's going to apply to both of these hypothetical dudes, because they're essentially the same person in parallel universes.

I don't know where this 20/21 year old confusion is coming from, but it's not from me. Last season, Gomez's season age was 21. Those numbers (whatever permutations one happens to do with them, such as [for instance] converting them to a AA EqA) are most definitely age 21 numbers.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 31, 2008 8:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Developementalist vs emergencist

No, I'm neither. I'm a resultstist.

If the college player is producing the same numbers at a lower level at the same age than the HS school player, he is a worse player.

If the college player is producing the same numbers at the same level at an older age than the HS school player, he is a worse player.

It's too bad for him that he went to college. He shouldn't have.

"Unfortunately, it's hard to have a controlled experiment here. Most GMs and minor league managers are developmentalists (otherwise, why enter the field?); most statheads are emergencists. Seems like analyzing promotion patterns and success rates would make some damned interesting articles for BP or THT, though."

No. The point is that the younger player has more time to develope and learn, before the inevitable physical decline. Nothing to with the Peter principle.

As players age, they acquire more experience, hone their skills. Unfortunately, they also pick up injuries, scar tissue etc. They inevitably decline physically. The younger player has more time to develope before the inevitable physical decline.

A 22 year old at MLB who posts a 100 OPS+ has more time to build on that, than a 24 year old who posts a 100 OPS+ at MLB.

A 21 year old at AAA who posts a 100 OPS+ has more time to build on that, than a 23 old who posts a 1-- OPS+ at AAA.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 30, 2008 10:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If it's a matter of "injuries"

and "scar tissue," it's not clear to me that going to college wouldn't be a good thing. College ball is significantly less intense than the pros. If the college guy is a year older, but his body is "a year younger," it seems to me that he'd actually be in better condition to succeed.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 31, 2008 9:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Except injuries occur

for a whole host of reasons, in a whole variety of ways.

Stress is not necessarily bad. Less stress is not necessarily better than more stress. It's too much stress, too soon, at the wrong time, without a proper warmup, over too long a period of time, without enough rest (nutritional, sleep, massage etc), that can be bad.

The frequent application of moderate forces or the occasional application of large, impulsive forces can cause structural fatigue.

Small injuries are accompanied by the usual internal bleeding and the formation of scar tissue. Larger injuries obviously usually need surgery.

Just because an athlete is training and competing and lower intensities does not mean that injuries don't happen.

Overtraining, ie too large a load at a given instant or too large a quantity of work can certainly cause injury.

Undertraining can also cause injury. Even if the competition level is lower, inevitably, an athlete is going to have to max out, to perform at his / her maximum capacity at extreme stress, unless (s)he is ridiculously better than the competition. If (s)he is not used to maxing out, not used to competing through the "pain barrier" the possibility of injury might increase.

An injury could happen even during warmups, because many humans, being human, have the tendency to not pay as much attention when they are warming up.

The unfortunate fact for serious athletes is that injuries build up, physical decline is inevitable.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 31, 2008 9:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gms as developmentalists.

Let's take a look around the league.

Omar Minaya is seen as a traditional, old-school GM. His predecessors as Mets GM were not stats based either. Under him and his predecessors, the Mets have aggressively pushed their young players through the minors: Reyes, Kazmir, Wright, Milledge, Gomez, Martinez, Guerra are just some examples.

The Braves are seen as the epitome of the old-school scouting approach. They even had a book extolling those virtues written about them. They too have tended to be aggressive in pushing their young players. Jeff Francouer and Brian McCann are 2 examples.

The Mariners. Bill Bavasi has never been described as a stats-based GM. The Mariners, have been maybe, even more aggressive than the Mets at pushing their young player: Adam Jones, Asdrubal Cabrera, Triunfel are some examples.

The Yankees. They have been fairly aggressive with Cano and Cabrera in recent times. To a certain extent, Joba and Kennedy.

It would appear that at least some old-school, and maybe not old school (Cashman), GMs value youth and age to level.

Also, Baseball America, who are known for their non-stats based approach, are notorious / famous for placing lots of emphasis on age to level; in past times, much more emphasis than Baseball Prospectus.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 30, 2008 11:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure this really lines up all that well

with the stats/scouts "debate." Beane is clearly more of a stats guy than either Brian Sabean or Bill Bavasi, yet he's equally clearly in the middle of the two in terms of prospect promotion speed. Part of this has to do, I think, with the tendency of GMs (as compared to, say, bloggers) to be developmentalists regardless of their opinion on statistics, and part of it probably has to do with the fact that I'm theorizing as I go along here.

I think looking at dominant prospects is not really the right approach here. If a guy is putting up an OPS of 1.200 in A+, he's going to get promoted regardless of his age, the general philosophy of the GM, etc. Adam Jones put up stupid good numbers in the minors at pretty much every level-- even Sabean would have had his hand forced by that. Whatever lessons he had to learn at AA, he clearly learned them pretty quickly. The key question is what to do with the guys who are putting up average numbers, not the standouts.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 31, 2008 9:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Jones was very good

if you take into account age to level.

At 19, OPS of 826 at AA in the Texas league, relative to a league average of 746.

At 20, OPS of 829 at AAA in the PCL, relative to a league average of 757.

And then, up to the majors.

Those numbers are very good for his age, but on their own, don't exactly scream MLB ready right now, rush him to the majors NOW.

Asdrubal Cabrera was very clearly ridiculously rushed. He got his first taste of AAA at age 19, OPS of 554 in the PCL in a very SSZ, after putting up a 743 OPS in the CAL at A+, relative to a league average of 809. Even the Mets would probably have only pushed him up to AA.

The next season, started at AAA in the PCL, OPS of 683 relative to a league average of 757.

Cleveland left him in AAA for the rest of the year after getting him and then moved him down to AA the next season.

I'm not actually trying to line this up with old-school vs new-school. Just trying to say that IMO, basically, it doesn't really line up, at least not with statheads as emergencist, and GMs as developmentalist.

If you go back and look through old BPro annuals, or search through their archives, BPro at least, have tended to underweight age to level. They used to (over)value older prospects playing corner positions putting up shiny OPS against younger kids. It is the old-school guys who have traditionally valued age to level more.

By old-school guys, I mean those who actually value prospects like Schuerholtz, and yes even Bavasi. Many of the Mariners better prospects in the past several years were acquired with him as GM.

Not deranged people like Sabean.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 31, 2008 12:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

but not

#1

President of the Joey Devine fan club as of 1/15/08. Accepting applications for other positions. "He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Jan 29, 2008 6:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm happy because
  1. i don't have to hear the red sox/ santana/ yankees rumors anymore!
  1. johan is out of the AL!

and even though i still am not happy about the haren trade, it will start to look a LOT better if this santana trade happens and the twins only get those four players mentioned!

by gotgreen on Jan 29, 2008 9:20 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

even though ESPN's commentaries last night

were mostly about "who lost most in the Santana deal, Yanks or Sux?"

You'd think there were only two MLB teams, not 30...

by OaklandSi on Jan 30, 2008 6:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

ESPN Sucks!

ESPN is a joke. Being from orlando, it is near impossible for me to get any highlights of the A's game without having to go on the internet. It's really pathetic. It's no wonder why teams like the yankees and red sox have so many bandwagon fans. The media doesn't give people much of a selection. I'm not opposed to doing extra work to find out information on my favorite team, but unfortunately, most casual fans won't do that.

by OrlandoAsFan on Jan 30, 2008 7:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

ESPN Sucks!

Everytime I saw a segment about Santana they showed him striking out Chavez, Kotsay, and Kendall.  Usually they showed two different Kendall K's, one where he throws the bat while swinging and missing.  They showed a few other teams but they always rotated those three.  Santana had at least 235 strikeouts the last 4 seasons and they couldn't find more to show!  I know sportscenter repeats the same show a lot but they had at least 3 seperate discussions on the trade in one hour. They always showed the A's striking out.

A's all the way in 08 . . . oh never mind!

by micdog2001 on Jan 30, 2008 10:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not Just Santana
I've noticed that they seem to like doing that regardless which player they're talking about at the moment. They love showing guys hitting homeruns off oakland pitchers as well. I swear, I was watching espn a while back and they showed someone (forgot who) striking out Terrance Long. While he was wearing an A's uniform. It's communism the way they seem to love torturing the smaller market teams the way they do.

by OrlandoAsFan on Jan 30, 2008 11:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

does that make Olbermann Trotsky?
The best that can be said about this is that it's imaginative. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 30, 2008 11:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oakland has good lighting

I'm not sure if this is related at all, but my hypothesis is that games played in Oakland have better lighting on camera than other stadiums. Whenever I see A's highlights on SportsCenter, the feed looks clearer and brighter compared to many other stadiums. Just a thought. Has anyone else noticed the same?

by FlagsFlyForever on Jan 30, 2008 12:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I've noticed it in other instances as well
but I thought I was being paranoid.  Now I don't think I am.
A's all the way in 08 . . . oh never mind!

by micdog2001 on Jan 30, 2008 3:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This thread should be renamed:

grover, PaulThomas, rfloh: Triple Threat match. Media blackout, all ticket, one night only analysis of doom!

Interesting stuff guys, fo carry on.

by OldhamA on Jan 30, 2008 6:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Now you've done it

No way do I deserve top billing. I'm feeling self-conscious and must move on to other threads.

Farewell.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Jan 30, 2008 6:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What? No one told you this was a lumberjack

triple threat match?

Get back in there!

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Jan 30, 2008 10:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

grover's a lumberjack, and he's ok ...
The best that can be said about this is that it's imaginative. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 31, 2008 10:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

new AN has a special feature ...

... that will only count a comment by one of those guys as 1/5th of a full comment, so that their digressions won't artificially inflate the "new comments" count under the diary link on the sidebar.

The best that can be said about this is that it's imaginative. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 31, 2008 10:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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