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The Crosby Conundrum

I'm not exactly sure why, but for some odd reason I feel compelled to further discuss Bobby Crosby's value as a baseball player as it relates to his future success or failure with the A's. Recently Crosby has been lambasted and derided unmercilessly by another member of AN and it is for that reason that I would like to examine whether or not the criticism that has befallen Crosby over the past few seasons is merited.

Star-divide

I must admit that I have been frustrated and disappointed by Crosby's production over the past few season's as have most A's fans I have talked to.  I can only presume that this disappointment stems from the fact that BC was a highly touted prospect whom we were led to believe had as much, if not more, talent and promise as his predecessor at the shorstop position. A player who we were fortunate enough to see blossom into an MVP in green and gold only to be allowed to leave for greener pastures.  I mention Tejada and his departure because I think he will always be linked to Crosby and the expectations that come along with filling the enormous shoes left by the former face of our franchise.

When Crosby was thrust into the limelight as a raw 24 year old rookie he earned rookie of the year honors and, in many respects, lived up to the lofty expectations that were bestowed upon him as a result of Tejada's defection to the hapless Baltimore Orioles.  I readily admit that Crosby's numbers his rookie year do not look extraordinary at first glance.  However, when put into context, and compared to Tejada in his first year or two with the A's they certainly suggest that Crosby could indeed be the special type of player we hoped he could be.  

Comparing these two A's shortstops as rookie's is fairly difficult as Crosby had nearly 200 more AB's in his first season with the big club.  In addition Crosby broke into the bigs as a 24 year old and Tejada had his first appreciable stint with the A's at 22.  That is of course if we can be certain  that Tejada's age is correct.  If we assume that Tejada's age is correct, due to the discrepancy in AB's I would argue that the most important stats in comparing the two shortsops would be their batting average, and OPS (which is simply composed of the player's OBP plus his slugging percentage).  

In Crosby's rookie season his batting average was .239, he had an OBP of .319 and a slugging percentage of .426 which would equate to an OPS of .745.  In contrast Tejada amassed a BA of .233, an OBP of .298 and a Slugging percentage of .384 for an OPS of .682 in his rookie campaign.  Based on these statistics alone Crosby's numbers were clearly better than Tejada's in their first big league season, as well they should be.  Crosby was both older, and therefore should be more polished, and he had the benefit of playing a full season while Tejada did not.  For this reason I would submit that we should take a look at Tejada's first full year numbers to get a better idea about how the two shortstops compare statistically.

In Miggy's first full season in the show, at the ripe old age of 23, he had a BA of .251, an OBP of .325 and a slugging percentage of .427 for an OPS of .752.  In looking at these figures I was astonished to see how similar they were to Crosby's rookie numbers.  In addition, BC had the 12th best OPS out of all shortstops in MLB who had at least 300 AB's on his way to earning ROY honors.  In my opinion this debate truly gets interesting when we take a look at Crosby's 2005 numbers.

In 2005 Bobby Crosby improved upon his rookie season by becoming more consistent and more efficient at the plate.  His BA improved by a healthy margin to a very respectable .276, his OBP increased significantly to .346 and his slugging percentage also increased dramatically to .456.  This would equate to an OPS of .802 which would mean that Crosby, in only his second season, rather than endure the proverbial sophomore slump, would actually have the 8th best OPS among all shortstops in MLB in 2005 with at least 300 AB's.  Bobby did so while hitting in the heart of the order, for much of the season, while in the midst of a pennant race, all the while manning one of the most difficult and most important defensive positions in the game.  The lone caveat?  Crosby was injured for a significant portion of the season and finished with more than 200 fewer at bats than he had in his rookie campaign.  In each season since he has been oft injured and much maligned by fans as his skills seem to have diminished, eroded or eluded him in what seems to be one cruel twist of fate after another.

In the interest of full disclosure I will say that I have resigned myself to the fact that I may never see the day that Crosby lives up to his full potential.  I can't count the number of times I have awakened from a nightmare in a cold sweat muttering some combination of the words "fragile, high socks and someone tell him to move closer to the plate before i have a freakin stroke".  I have questioned his heart, and I am not thoroughly convinced that he is anything more than a head case.  At times I even have a sneaking suspicion that he has somehow fallen under the curse of the GS Warrior.  Which, for the uninitiated, means that he will play uninspired baseball well below his ability level until he leaves the A's organization.  At which time he will become a perennial All-Star and torment the A's every time we face him.  

That being said Crosby has been wildly unlucky over the past few years, and it stands to reason that over the course of his career his luck should even out to some extent.  While his injuries have certainly stunted his development as a player, he is still relatively young, and if given the opportunity has plenty of time to recapture the form, and refine the approach that earned him ROY honors.  It was not too long ago that at least one prominent national television personality predicted that Crosby would win the AL MVP award in leading his team to a division championship.  At this stage in BC's career it may be far too ambitious to expect that prediction to come to fruition, but I don't think anyone can argue in good conscience that Crosby doesn't have the talent to be a force in this league at his position as long as a few things go his way for a change.  I think I might even have read a quote from Bobby this offseason explaining how he has been working on hitting much closer to the plate.  If you ask me that is the best thing I've read in years......but I think I'll wait a couple of months before I get my hopes up.  

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Crosby has been a big negative the last two years, no matter what comparison you make.  Still, given that he's our shortstop I wouldn't mind a (self-imposed) moratorium on the bashing.  If he's going to be our guy (which is obvious people, give up the pipe dream that he'll be replaced), we might as well support him, or at least cut him one last break.

If he puts up a 90 ops+ (.320/.400) and stays on the field, he's a good player given his defense.  Does anybody really think that's so far out of reach?

by 31Boots on Jan 28, 2008 9:57 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I am into it

Plus, I have a Crosby jersey... somehow all of the jersey's my wife and girls could have bought me for my birthday they picked the one that would be relevant all these years later. He can't be all bad if that's the case. :)

by jeffro on Jan 28, 2008 10:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

plahuge

where did you come up with that handle?

Brainless Automaton #439

by rubin sierra on Jan 28, 2008 9:57 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

He's not young anymore

Players have typically hit their physical peak by his age. The guy is 28.

Crosby will never be an even passable MLB hitter. The guy is a grade A rockhead. He doesn't make adjustments. He doesn't understand either his strengths or his weaknesses. He has no pitch recognition skills. And at his age, he's not likely to develop any.

The guy's an expensive bench player at this point, as far as I'm concerned.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 28, 2008 10:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

PaulThomas normally I respect your judgement

but in this case I think you are bit too hard on Crosby.

This guy played pretty good his first year, not great, but still good offense and what I think is above average defense.  On the A's middle defense is a lot more valuable then offense.  It is best if they have both but still he has the best of the two.  Also,  he has been hurt while playing, not like others who tweak something and are for months like Bradley and Harden.  

I say give the kid a break,  let's root for him, give him some positive vibes and let me give it his best shot.

I remember when Kielty came over everyone hated him.. then all of a sudden he was great, half the time.  Or Kotsay the last two years with a hurt back.. he came back too early and now people feel he is a bum.  Give me a break.  He could be a great CFer again, or at least at the top of his game

I am all for giving Crosby a chance to have a full healthy Spring Training and season and see what he does.  Now that the pressure is off, not contending, he may have a MVP year!  Ok.. maybe I went a little far on that one.

by Eastbayjim on Jan 28, 2008 10:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I've never criticized him for being injury prone

As far as I'm concerned, in his case his injuries were essentially flukes.

What I have criticized him for is being terrible when he's fully healthy, which for extended periods of the last two seasons is exactly what he was.

Kielty was "great" approximately 30% of the time, that being essentially the fraction of his plate appearances which took place against left-handers. He's still a useful piece as a platoon hitter; I'd have no objections to having him on my team opposite Trot Nixon or the like. Crosby is not even an effective platoon hitter, however.

I'm not passing a moral judgment on him. For all I know, he's a great guy. He just happens to not be very good at baseball (and particularly the psychological aspects of it).

[Obvious but nonetheless inevitable disclaimer: I know that everyone who sniffs the majors is better than 99% of all baseball players. Players have to be evaluated in the context of their leagues. If I was a RiverCats fan and he was on my team, I'm sure I'd think he was a star.]

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 28, 2008 11:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He was "good at baseball"

in 2004 and 2005.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 29, 2008 5:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

re: Rivercats Fan.

Guilty as charged.  

I totally agree with your assessment, but I'd love to see the guy have a complete, healthy season.  We can fault him for not making adjustments, but it's hard to make adjustments when you're not healthy for any extended period of time.  

Frankly, I'm not sure how much of a fluke any of his injuries have been.  How much more likely is a player to have their wrist broken on a pitch when they have to dive across the plate all the time in order to make contact?

by ChrisCEIT on Jan 29, 2008 6:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

2 things
  1. How long is an "extended period of time"? In my book, 3 months qualifies.
  1. Given all the time he's had to sit around on the DL, shouldn't he have spent it dissecting his own performances and at least conceptualizing (obviously couldn't implement them yet) adjustments he could make?
cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 7:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I've never been a professional athlete

(or any kind of athlete, really)... but I don't think 3 months of "health" is necessarily enough when you take into account things like continuing to rehab as you begin to play (that is, "rehabbing" by playing), and the time it takes to get your physical shit together (timing, judgment, etc.).  Yes, if you're playing a sport at a high level, you already have the basic physical conditioning and muscle memory that should expedite the process of resuming your game activities -- but it's probably still harder than it sounds when your 2-3 month episodes of "health" are constantly interspersed with months of injury and limited mobility (and one of those injuries was a back injury that had was first mishandled and then had to be handled with extra care).

Totally with you on your #2 point, though...

"It is almost impossible to exaggerate the complete unimportance of almost everything."

by Poppy on Jan 29, 2008 8:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"back injury that was first mishandled"

without another "had"

"It is almost impossible to exaggerate the complete unimportance of almost everything."

by Poppy on Jan 29, 2008 8:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If you are sitting on your ass for

2-3 months, especially repeatedly the way Crosby has been over the last several years, the physical conditioning goes very fast.

Most weightlifters at high levels lift / train 10-12 times a week, pretty much nonstop throughout the year, just to use an example.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 29, 2008 8:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not arguing that 3 months is enough time

for him to return to complete physical health. That's something I know nothing about except in certain particularly common circumstances (like Tommy John surgery).

What I'm arguing is that 3 months is long enough that it is not, as ChrisCEIT said it was, "hard to make adjustments" during that time frame.

An added point: part of playing effectively when you're not 100% healthy is figuring out what you can and can't do effectively, and then adjusting to that. Something which, as far as I can tell, Crosby has not done very well.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 9:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Essentially, you *are* arguing that 3 months

is enough.  Your criticism of him is that he's been terrible when fully healthy.  My point is that "healthy enough to be on the active roster" is not necessarily the same as being up to speed after some of your skills have been rotting from disuse.

"It is almost impossible to exaggerate the complete unimportance of almost everything."

by Poppy on Jan 29, 2008 9:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This year

he was "healthy" (OK, not healthy. "Recovering.") for, not 3 months, but 11.

That said, I don't know how long recovery from back vertebrae stress fractures takes. What I do know is that the team made no intimations of him being unhealthy and he gave no evidence of being in discomfort after about mid-April, which is also essentially when he stopped being given games off by Geren.

So to summarize: he had 11 months to recover and 3 months to adjust. He seemed to recover fully physically in those 11 months based on what I can tell, but I don't really know. He did not appear to make adjustments effectively to either opposing pitching or whatever residual/newfound physical limitations he had.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 10:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

if he had been healthy for 11 months

wouldn't he have played more spring training games?

by tosk on Jan 30, 2008 12:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, adjusting to various

tweaks and aches which result from training and competition is part of being a serious athlete.

There's a difference between sore lower back muscles and a fracture in your lower back vertebra. There's a difference between sore hands, torn bleeding calluses and fractured bones in your wrists / hands.

Crosby hasn't just suffered one injury. He has gtten repeatedly injured. Healthy for 3 months. And then he gets injured again.

There are good reasons why serious athletes in pretty much every sport train year round, non-stop.

Muscle can atrophy very quickly, depending on the muscle, especially in the slow extensors. Muscle atrophy can occur within 1-2 weeks of disuse.

A great weightlifter from Eastern Europe once said: "I live a very diverse life. I train, I eat, I sleep, I fly to competitions, I compete in competitions."

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 29, 2008 10:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Being injured

all the time results in him losing lots of training / practice time, both baseball specific training and also general physical training, like lifting weights, AND lots of competition time against "real" opponents.

Just getting older will not automagically make an athlete better.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 29, 2008 8:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i did say a full year.

I'm not a professional baseball player, but Crosby has shown that with a full and complete season he can perform better than average at his position.  And since he stopped playing full seasons, he hasn't.  Like I said, I'd like to see him have a full and complete season before I label him a bust, rather than just unlucky with his injuries.  I'm not even trying to play the glass half full here either - in terms of getting into game condition, if he's having to rest a bad back, he's not taking practice swings.  Spring Training isn't for the fans.  

And I'll repeat myself from above - I'm not sure his injuries are entirely unlucky anyway.  His swing is entirely too loopy and he'll obviously be prone to back injuries and well, I bet he gets hit on the wrist again because he's not balanced enough to avoid the inside heat.  If he's "lucky" to remain healthy this year, I don't see why he wouldn't necessarily give the A's something like .330/.430.  

And, just a guess on my part, and a hopeful one at that.  

by ChrisCEIT on Jan 29, 2008 2:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The first year . . .

. . . of a players major year career can sometimes be misleading.  It often takes that long for opposing pitchers to find weaknesses.  Baseball is a game of adjustments.  Successful ballplayers adjust.  Bobby Crosby has not shown he can do that.  In defense of Bobby he has not had the consistant playing time to do this.  I just hope that 2008 is injury free for Bobby so that both he and all of us can see what he can do.

Jim

by jarforcefatherofforce on Jan 28, 2008 10:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The main reason most members continue to

deride Crosby is because some members continue to profess his potential greatness. I'm not sure if this minority are Crosby's relatives or if they're long Crosby paraphernalia (see Jeffro above), but this needs to stop.
Crosby is what we think he is, a poor hitting/decent fielding shortstop. He'll never carry Miggy's jock even if he were 10 years older/younger and roided up to look like the Michelin Man.
Unfortunatley, I'm afraid he'll be with the team as long as he's under contract and there is no cheaper alternative. So I guess I should just copy and paste this post for the next 80 pro-Crosby diaries that will pop up between now and his departure.

by Bacon on Jan 29, 2008 6:03 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Crosby

From Little League Baseball, to Babe Ruth, to High School Ball,  to American Legion, to College Baseball, and thru the Minor Leagues.... Everything has come easy for Crosby.

I have heard that he's finally attempting to make adjustments this summer.  Building a Batting Cage at his home.  Moving closer to the plate.  Cutting down the swing, etc...  I just hope he's not making these "adjustments" on his own.  Ty Van Burkleo needs to be in the guest bedroom this winter, or we could see a real headcase this summer.  

by Colorado Fan on Jan 29, 2008 7:44 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

LE-HE-HEAVE BOBBY CROSBY ALO-HO-HONE!!!
The best that can be said about this is that it's imaginative. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 29, 2008 7:59 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

slamming crosby is fair game

not for the injuries (he's been very unlucky in many cases, minus the back, which is partly his own fault due to his preposterously big swing), but his approach. look, if you're on the DL as much as he has been, its understandable to be rusty. however, it is not acceptable to continue having the piss-poor approach he has at the plate. he kept this insanely big swing which didn't help his back and didn't really help much w/ his hitting, either; he consistently stays too far away from the plate; he consistently doesn't read pitches well at all. crosby hasn't made any adjustments. that's the real issue. and to think, he had frank thomas as a teammate for a season - frank is a HOFer who constantly tinkers with his stance, his approach, etc. he would have been an ideal person for crosby to soak up some info from and implement new approaches at the plate. but no, we still got the same dude who stands far away from the plate, swings like he's trying to hit the ball 600 feet when he can barely make contact with it, and is guaranteed to ground out or strike out on "low and away" pitches. i hope he finally makes some adjustments this year (which he's apparently working on right now), but i'm not very optimistic.

"welcome to ME, motherf*^*er!" - tim hudson

by guy incognito on Jan 29, 2008 9:26 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

for me, your post says it all!!

preposterously big swing

but his approach

hasn't made any adjustments.

Maybe one small addition, under the category of not adjusting, would be to hope that he might learn to take a pitch on the outside part of the plate to the opposite field.

i hope he finally makes some adjustments this year (which he's apparently working on right now), but i'm not very optimistic.

It ain't my money, but I say let's get the boys together and take another shot.--Swish

by alamedaman on Jan 29, 2008 9:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that

since we probably won't contend this year that I have a little more patience with BC (not that my patience really matters).  I think that his focus lately has been health (or the lack there of) and that is why he hasn't adjusted yet.  Maybe he could make adjustments if thats all he has to worry about (thats my hope).  I think it's easier to make adjustments when you can put them into practice (i.e. in a game instead of BP).  Man I like parentheses!!

A's all the way in 08 . . . oh never mind!

by micdog2001 on Jan 29, 2008 10:03 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

What I don't understand

and PaulThomas, I'm especially looking forward to your reply (seriously, no "let's fight about this" intended)
Some of you bash Crosby for lack of plate discipline, poor pitch recognition, no adjustments, etc. etc. You claim his injuries ought not to be used as an excuse, and wonder if he was over-hyped to begin with. All of these are fair criticisms and valid points.
What I don't understand, is Eric Chavez meets every one of these descriptions dead-on. Horrible approach at the plate, a failure to make adjustments consistently, still swings at garbage rookies sneeze at, the list goes on and on. However, instead of bashing Chavez, many of you who are quick to point out Crosby's flaws, defend Chavez vehemently. "Oh, it's the injuries" "Oh, it's the expectations" and on and on it goes.
If you're gonna say Crosby is over-hyped and an underachiever, man you GOTTA say the same thing about Chavez ... and the talent level isn't even close. Chavez does far less with his talent than anyone on the roster.

VacaAsFan

by Vacafan on Jan 29, 2008 10:18 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Chavez

"Chavez Criticism" is the clubhouse leader for AN Diaries.  "Crosby Conundrum" is a strong 2nd... and coming on strong.

by Colorado Fan on Jan 29, 2008 10:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree totally with this, and

almost added it to my comment above.  Regarding Chavez' hitting, the problems are basically the same.

A little hard to understand in Chavez case, since he did such a fantastic job of improving his defense at 3rd over his career.  It would seem the same mental approach would apply.

by alamedaman on Jan 29, 2008 10:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

no
It starts with rule No. 1 from coach Don Nelson: Shoot the ball.

by mikeA on Jan 29, 2008 10:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

How about:

He was a really good hitter until 06-07 when he got injured (and really good in 06 before he got injured)....

It starts with rule No. 1 from coach Don Nelson: Shoot the ball.

by mikeA on Jan 29, 2008 10:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OK, I'll bite

There's precisely one difference between the two.

Eric Chavez is still a good hitter.

With the exception of last year, when he was clearly weighed down by injury (and not some "residual effects" thing-- he was actively in pain), he's been an above-average hitter for essentially his entire career. Crosby, for his career, has been replacement level.

Look, I think Manny Ramirez is dumb as a post. If the only thing you told me about a guy is "he's dumb as a post," I would hazard a guess that he was not really an All-Star. And by and large, the probabilities would be on my side. But if the guy in question was Manny Ramirez, well, I'd lose the bet.

Likewise, if you tell me a guy swings at cheese, I'd figure him to probably be a crummy hitter. Most of them, like Crosby, are. Some, like Ichiro, are not. Chavez is one of the "nots."

Is he an underachiever? Probably. (Offensively, that is.) I couldn't care less. "Talent" in the abstract is really boring to me, because it seems to be randomly distributed and not very closely linked to actual success.

I don't go after Crosby because I think he's "wasting his talent" (although I do think that) or out of some kind of moral anger. If I did, you're right, it would be inconsistent to not criticize Chavez as well. I go after Crosby (and not Chavez) because Crosby (unlike Chavez) is a bad baseball player and I would really prefer that my favorite team (viz. the A's) did not have bad baseball players on it.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 10:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nitpick: Chavez had a 102 OPS+ last year

If anything, it was his defense that made him below average last year.

by MrIncognito on Jan 29, 2008 11:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Curse you, park effects

He was below average positionally, though. Third basemen do hit better than MLB average.

But as I said, in his case his hitting was visibly affected by physical pain. It remains to be seen whether the surgeries he's received will address the situation.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 12:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Shortage of talent at SS

Well if Crosby is a "bad baseball player", whether or not that is the case, there must be a tremendous paucity of talent at the position.  During his first two years in the league, before sustaining a myriad of "freak" injuries, his OPS put him among the 10 best players or so at his position in both leagues.  For the salary he currently receives, so long as he can provide better than average defense, he is at the very least an adequate stopgap until the SS of the future arrives.

by plahuge on Jan 29, 2008 12:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There is a paucity of talent

Today's shortstops are, quite frankly, inferior to the shortstops of 5-10 years ago. A-Rod's moved to third, Nomar's moved off of SS and totally fallen apart, Tejada's declining and might move soon. Omar Vizquel is still hanging on, but he's on his last legs. And there's not a tremendous amount of young talent around-- Tulowitzki, Reyes, maybe Escobar, and that's about it.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 1:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to nitpick but...

I think you might be able to make a case that the SS position is weaker than it used to be but there are still some very good young players.  Hanley (probably the best SS in the game, though his defense is mediocre), Rollins is in his prime, Peralta and Greene (both give you the power if not the OBP), and Hardy are all very good to excellent players. And that's not to mention prospects who we might see as soon as next year (Wood, Brignac, Lillibrige, Lowrie etc).  Of course, there's no ARod in that group but I would say that the next tier of SS is even deeper today than it's counterpart of yesteryear.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Jan 29, 2008 3:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You may well be correct

in which case Crosby's value, relative to the average player at his position, will continue to plummet.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 3:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I see what you're saying

I'm just not as comfortable being ok with "good numbers" when I know they ought to be so much better. (In Chavez' case.)
In other words, I'm going to be a lot harder on a guy who has 35/100 potential but only hits 20/80 (which are still "good numbers" compared to most) than a guy who just isn't very good.
The guy (Crosby) who is what he is -- mediocre -- gets a lot more slack from me than someone who underachieves.  
I had a neighbor who's kid was a genius. Just really gifted academically. But he was lazy, and he'd bring home B's occasionally. Now these were good numbers -- above average -- better than most. But his dad wouldn't let him slide. He had a brother who just wasn't as smart, and C's were great for him. The dad was a lot more sympathetic towards that kid, because C's reflected maximum effort.
With Crosby, what you see is what you get. Take it or leave it. I think it's the best he can do. With Chavez, I'm not so sure.  But because his numbers are better than most, you're ok with it??!!  Not me. Not when I know he's capable of so much more.

VacaAsFan

by Vacafan on Jan 29, 2008 1:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay

You're probably the only person on this blog who sees Crosby as having been mediocre ever since the team acquired him. (If that is, in fact, the case.)

He was a top-round draft pick. A hotshot prospect. Rookie of the Year, for whatever that's worth. I don't see how that can possibly equate to someone who is irretrievably mediocre. You seem to be describing Marco Scutaro, not Bobby Crosby.

But more to the point, I really don't care whether the reasons that a guy sucks are physical, mental, emotional, whatever. If Joe Blanton dropped a chainsaw and accidentally amputated his leg, I'd feel bad for him and hope he got a pension. I would not, however, want him to continue pitching for Oakland.

There are any number of ways guys can perform poorly. Some are their fault, some aren't. I really don't care whether it's their fault or not, nor do I even know what is and isn't.

I'm not Eric Chavez, I don't know what he does and doesn't work on. If I knew he was trying hard not to hit high fastballs, but just couldn't seem to do it, would that change my opinion of his hitting abilities? Nope.

This isn't some Horatio Alger story. It's baseball, and I want my team to win. Eric Chavez makes my team win. Bobby Crosby makes my team lose. It's really as simple as that.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 1:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, I see where you're coming from

I just disagree with your final assessment. Crosby hurts the team .. ok.  Chavez "makes my team win," (?!) Nope. Defensively, I have no problem. Offensively, he hurts us. I think he's become an easy out, quite frankly ... someone you'd pitch to every time. I remember laughing out loud a couple times when they intentionally walked him.
Pitch him away every time and he gets himself out. But I'll be interested to see how much better he is now that he's healthy. Didn't know being hurt made you stupid, too. (See "slider or curveball away.")

VacaAsFan

by Vacafan on Jan 29, 2008 2:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OK, so

you don't understand what does and does not "hurt you" on offense. (Or how to get Eric Chavez out, for that matter. His worst numbers last year came on up-and-in pitches, and he was generally far worse on inside pitches than outside pitches. If you want him to chase a pitch out of the zone, you're about twice as likely to get him on a high fastball than on a breaking ball. You can look all this up at ESPN if you have Insider access.)

There are plenty of primers out there, starting with the one that salb conveniently posted on this here site here a few days ago.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 29, 2008 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He pretty much sucked

on pitches, period. Just throw it up there and get him out. All I know is, throw him away ... I mean, far, far away ... and he'll swing every time. I'm often surprised he doesn't swing when the umpire throws balls out of play.
Again, not saying he can't hit ... just saying he rarely does. If you're ok with his production ... 20 or so jacks and a .260 average, so be it. That doesn't help us.

VacaAsFan

by Vacafan on Jan 29, 2008 7:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But he does hit

That's what his career numbers are - the actual record of hit hitting. They are good, he can and does hit.

Chavez is one of the few players who seems to hit worse with RISP, so I think fan frustration far exceeds his actual deficits on offense.

by MrIncognito on Jan 30, 2008 4:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

but what if Joe *attached* the saw to his leg?

< / Tarantino >

The best that can be said about this is that it's imaginative. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 29, 2008 3:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There are three schools of thought on BoCro

and none of their students are likely to transfer before the season begins:

School #1)  Crosby sucks / Crosby's a bust because he's had enough time to prove himself capable of living up to expectations, and he hasn't done so.

School #2)  Crosby might suck, but there hasn't yet been enough consistent health/playing time to make that call stick.

School #3)  Crosby's great and has just been really unlucky.

(School #3 is pretty sparsely attended, actually...)

"There's no real reason why a flight in which one flies naked should be more expensive than any other."

by Poppy on Jan 29, 2008 12:55 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I think he should bring back the beard

that one can replace the lonely #3.

It starts with rule No. 1 from coach Don Nelson: Shoot the ball.

by mikeA on Jan 29, 2008 12:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, there are *four* BoCro schools of thought.
"There's no real reason why a flight in which one flies naked should be more expensive than any other."

by Poppy on Jan 29, 2008 1:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

put Crosby in the comfy chair!
The best that can be said about this is that it's imaginative. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 29, 2008 3:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I might be in group 2.5

depending on how i'm feeling that day.

A's all the way in 08 . . . oh never mind!

by micdog2001 on Jan 29, 2008 1:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

School #3

Has total attendance of just one. ME!

We want our Swisher Back!!

by BobbyCrosbysGirl on Jan 29, 2008 2:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fault me for my excess of patience ...

but I don't believe we have a better option than Crosby at SS.  Maybe he gets a longer string than he otherwise would because of that, but there is really no better alternative.  I believe the likelihood of Crosby having a really good year at SS is better than that of Donnie Murphy or Gregorio Petit, and it is certainly not worth depleting the just-built farm system or paying big money for a top-flight SS or SS prospect at this point.  So what should the A's do?  Keep Crosby and hope that his history of fluke injuries and the consequent rust and lack of ability to find a playing groove are just that.  Maybe he can adjust as a hitter, maybe he can't, but there is no denying that he has an arm, a glove, speed and power that none of his potential replacements have or can develop.  The reason the A's keep him and the rest of the league still views him as a legit "prospect" (I think he has regressed back to prospect status at this point) is that he has many of those essential qualities that you just can't teach.  PT may argue that's the problem, you can't teach him anything at all, but I still believe he's a special case with special and unfortunate circumstances who could possibly defy statistics because of his injury history and blossom at age 28.  If he does, we may never know if he adjusts and becomes a "late bloomer" or is simply finally healthy for a protracted time so that he can actually display his true ability, but it won't matter.

by iceplant on Jan 30, 2008 10:26 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Petit projects to have a better glove
and a better throwing arm than Crosby. He's been consistently graded by BA as having the best infield defense and best arm of anybody in the A's system.

Murphy already has a better arm.

Justin Sellers was recently named the top defender in the Hawaiian Winter League.

It may well be that none of these guys has Crosby's offensive upside (although at this point, I'm not sure how much of that upside is left) but it's simply and flatly incorrect to suggest that Crosby is as good as it gets defensively.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Jan 30, 2008 12:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So, how do we get new SS and 3B prospects?

After giving PaulThomas a bad time here I realized that we still need to upgrade our minor leagues with good SS and 3B prospects.

I found on ESPN insider (sorry don't have the link) where Keith Law lists the top 5 prospects by team.  Here are the teams that have one or more shortstops or 3B in the list.  Now, who can we trade (Street?) for these?

Boston

  1. Jed Lowrie, ss

Chicago Cubs

  1. Josh Vitters, 3b

Cleveland

  1. Wes Hodges, 3b

Colorado

  1. Ian Stewart, 3b
  1. Chris Nelson, ss
  1. Hector Gomez, ss

Detroit

  1. Cale Iorg, ss
  1. Danny Worth, ss

Florida

  1. Matt Dominguez, 3b

Kansas City

  1. Mike Moustakas, ss

Los Angeles Angels

  1. Brandon Wood, 3b

Los Angeles Dodgers

  1. Andy LaRoche, 3b
  1. Chin-Lung Hu, ss

Milwaukee

  1. Alcides Escobar, ss

Pittsburgh

  1. Neil Walker, 3b

San Diego

  1. Chase Headley, 3

Seattle

  1. Carlos Triunfel, ss

Tampa Bay

  1. Evan Longoria, 3b

Texas

  1. Elvis Andrus, ss

Toronto

  1. Kevin Ahrens, 3b

by Eastbayjim on Jan 31, 2008 8:27 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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