Preliminary Agreement Reached on Kotsay
by MoneyManWilliam on Jan 12, 2008 3:15 PM PST
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PrintYay! Great deal for A's! We stole (or bought) Devine from Atlanta. I've seen Devine rated within the top 10 of the Braves prospects. I was hoping just to dump Kotsay's salary - but to get a top 10 prospect and still getting some payroll flexibility back is great. Nice trade.
Lets hope Kotsay passes his physical tomorrow...
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Love it, if it happens
The A's save $2 million dollars and get a potential closer in Devine, and all they give up is a guy who has no place on the 2008 A's. Beane is having himself a very nice offseason, IMHO.
Thanks Mark!
i liked Kotsay...but this had to happen.
Go A's 08!
by drew24 on Jan 12, 2008 3:22 PM PST reply actions
Wow ...
hopefully Kotsay passes his physical ...
I'm surprised BB was able to get so much for Kotsay ... I'm also surprised he didn't figure out a way to turn Devine into Lillibridge.
Assuming this goes through, it moves the A's into the #4 spot in the GPA rankings of Sickel's grades. The Braves hold at #6.
Where did the Cards end up?
They had some nice depth... plus Rasmus, of course.
The A's could only cover so much money
I don't think another $1.5 million would have turned Devine into Lillibridge.
How about a C+ prospect?
Good deal
I think Devine is a pretty good prospect. Has shown great K rates in the minors but has had problems with walks in his time in the majors. Hopefully he can get that under control.
I think Devine has done all he can in AAA so this could mean there is going to be some other moves in the bullpen which is already pretty full. Could be Street, or could be another part ie. Calero, Embree.
Considering that Kotsay is completely worthless,
getting Devine is awesome. I'm surprised anyone not running an independent softball team wanted Kotsay. Basically, the Braves gave us $2 million and Devine for someone we were gonna dump in 5 months anyway. That Wren guy is a dimwit.
Kotsay is not garbage, he just like Kendall,
happened to be NL hitters, if he is healthy, he will be back in the .270 average range, and can still play CF.
by theblackpearl on Jan 12, 2008 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
except the whole
being done part...that kinda takes away from his production.
They do also get Jamie Kotsay.
That's gotta be worth a few bucks.
I like the deal, but...
I'm still a little bit apprehensive when it comes to deals with the Braves involving relief pitchers (especially since master-swindler Schuerholz is still "advising" Frank Wren). But hey, Kotsay was hardly Hudson, so even if it turns out the same way as that trade, it's no skin of my back!
Love this deal
I remember whenever Kotsay was in the lineup last year he couldn't hit the ball out of the infield when he would make contact.
Now we get a guy who steps into Dukes role should Justin actually stay in the rotation.
Thx for the memories Mark, that inside the parker against Minny is a fav. of mine.
by Hawk on Jan 12, 2008 4:21 PM PST reply actions
i know. *sigh*
i say that every year but i always end up getting somebody's tee during the season. i think i really i WILL stop doing that after this winter. =P
Yeah after Zito I thought I learned then
I got a Swisher tee. Oh well. At least I stopped there and realized what team I root for. Thats why I go blank
by Hawk on Jan 12, 2008 4:43 PM PST up reply actions
Crosby
Would you mind buying a Crosby shirt now?
by AlBowe on Jan 12, 2008 6:47 PM PST up reply actions
Put your own name on it
they won't trade you
by One won lost won on Jan 13, 2008 9:44 PM PST up reply actions
and since the A's have so many new names, you
might be able to sneak on the field at Spring Training. They've never seen 90% of the roster
by theblackpearl on Jan 14, 2008 9:07 AM PST up reply actions
"Es Verdad"
Keep the hat low, though, a la Dave Stewart!
by One won lost won on Jan 14, 2008 10:17 PM PST up reply actions
I'm thinking Ellis
In which case Poppy might never come back. <sniff>
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 12, 2008 4:49 PM PST up reply actions
my money's on Street
Blanton's next, but not until after the Santana situation is resolved.
Then Ellis.
Beane's best trade ever?
If this trade goes through (don't jinx Kotsay's Sunday physical don't jinx Kotsay's Sunday physical don't jinx Kotsay's Sunday physical), is this Beane's best trade ever?
Kotsay: sunk cost, a perennial Beane emotional and top-secret-A's-proprietary-heuristic favorite, falling-off-a-cliff offensive and defensive metrics, coming off back surgery for a chronic condition that won't be cured even if the surgery was successful, hasn't even stepped on a field let alone in ST or the regular season since surgery, in a situation where everyone in MLB knows Beane is in firesale mode
For a first-round pitcher who's proven himself in the top tiers of the minors, with major upside?
and $2 million
i don't know about best ever (mulder?), or even recently (if cust-cash counts)...
Not even close
I think this one doesn't get enough mention:
Kansas City Royals sent Johnny Damon and Mark Ellis to the Oakland Athletics. The Oakland Athletics sent Ben Grieve to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. The Oakland Athletics sent Angel Berroa and A.J. Hinch to the Kansas City Royals. The Tampa Bay Devil Rays sent Cory Lidle to the Oakland Athletics. The Tampa Bay Devil Rays sent Roberto Hernandez to the Kansas City Royals.
by awesomer @ Athletics Nation on Jan 12, 2008 8:21 PM PST up reply actions
point conceded, but ...
Berroa, Hinch, and (even at that point) Grieve all still projected well at that point. I think we (and Beane) knew Grieve was pretty much maxed out already, but he had that swing that scouts still loved -- and Hinch and Berroa were legit (albeit not elite) prospects. And KC was under their perennial budget-crunch-mandated roster selloff. Beane was definitely (even if he ended up coming out far, far ahead) giving up perceived/projected quality to get quality, and wasn't dealing under the gun the way that KC was then and that Beane himself is now.
as you have pointed out
Beane put himself in this position by having a player who was owed so much more money than he was worth. People talk about this trade taking Kotsay's salary off the books--but the fact is, we're paying three quarters of it. For nothing. I think when you factor in the $5 million-plus we're giving Atlanta in this trade, it makes best-trade-ever discussion way premature. The Braves are not getting Kotsay and his albatross contract--rather, they're getting Kotsay at about what he's worth.
by rubin sierra on Jan 12, 2008 11:20 PM PST up reply actions
I should say:
As you have pointed out in analogous situations
by rubin sierra on Jan 12, 2008 11:21 PM PST up reply actions
points all taken, and granted
However ... we're not paying 3/4 of his salary for nothing -- we're basically paying for Devine + a single-A pitcher (no, the Braves aren't getting that cash, but I think it's fair to characterize the A's side of the deal that way).
i would be surprised
if they traded street, he's still really young and could still be our closer in a few years when these prospects are ready. I think we should keep Blanton till the trade deadline when a team is dying for a pitcher.
How is that different than Swisher?
by Helloooo 1st on Jan 12, 2008 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
I dont think age
by Helloooo 1st on Jan 12, 2008 5:37 PM PST up reply actions
i learned a lot
sorry i didn't see the comment below
The way I see it...
...is we got a AAA version of Jason Ray.
And that's a good thing; the Death Ray throws hard, even if he does miss a lot.
I refuse to believe it...
until I see OaklandA23 post it.
Nothing but good things
to say here.
And I hate hate hate HATE making player to player comparisons (I've never seen a black guy compared to a white guy), but a live arm who struck out guys like crazy in the minors sounds like Gaudin did. Any chance Devine eventually becomes a starter? I can't do any research into his career right now (still Blackberrying).
Devine to Gaudin is a bad comp
Gaudin was a starter, converted to reliever in the majors, then converted back to starter.
Devine was always a reliever.
Right.
Just throwin' it out there. I know very little about this guy. Atlanta really picked a pure reliever in the first round? His stuff's gotta be pretty damn good.
it is but...
the Braves changed his mechanics. He used to be extremely sidearm but walked to many people in his initial stint with the braves. Some people think he got messed up mentally after giving up that blast in that immortal 18 inning game with the Astros. I just think it was a combination of his unique delivery and trying to do to much. He now throws more like Tim Hudson actually (hunches a bit in the load position and then springs back up). He lost the edge that his original delivery gave him in terms of angle. But from what I saw his velocity was still fine. I only know this because he's been on my keeper league team since he was drafted.
If this goes through, in terms of raw talent, this is definitely a win for us.
Street was picked in the first round
and his stuff isn't that good... unless control is part of "stuff."
Id look to trade Ellis
And start Hannahan at 2B if he can manage the position.
by SwisherSweet on Jan 12, 2008 5:16 PM PST reply actions
Gotta be the not so obvious..
How about Chavy or Cust.
by Hawk on Jan 12, 2008 5:34 PM PST reply actions
Chavy more likely a mid-season deal
After all those surgeries, the risk has to be dragging his value down significantly.
I see Street as the most likely to go. His perceived value is probably higher than his actual value.
I woulda thought that about Kotsay
That's why I can't believe the value Beane is (apparently, knock on wood) getting.
Important INFO
Devine is out of options, as per the Braves Scout.com page. That indicates that Beane plans on carrying him on the big league team from now on. Since the A's re-signed Calero and added him to all the guys they already have with no-options remaining and Hernandez (the Rule V guy), who goes for good to make room for Devine on the roster for the rest of the foreseeble future?
I say with Devine's closer-type stuff, Street could be the next to go, or maybe Embree.
Embree seems like the logical one to go 1st
since he's an experience lefty coming off an effective year. He could get moved during Spring Training, once contenders are facing injuries or ineffectiveness from LOOGYs they're relying on.
I thought Scout.com had to be wrong about this
Think about it: Devine was drafted in 2005. The only way he could be out of options is if they burned an option in 2005, 2006, and 2007. And the only way he could have used an option in 2005 is if the Braves drafted him, signed him, pitched him in the minors, called him up to Atlanta, and then optioned him back down to the minors (because a player called up for the first time but not returned to the minors the same year does not use an option), all in the less-than-three-month period between the June draft and the Sept. 1 roster expansion. Didn't seem likely.
But a quick search through BPro's Transaction Analysis archives confirms it. The Braves called him up on August 20, 2005, and optioned him back to the minors on August 30. I'd guess Atlanta was taking a flyer on seeing if they could catch a bit of K-Rod style rookie reliever magic, and when he turned out not to be ready for prime time, sent him back down before he would become part of the potential playoff roster on September 1. Maybe that gamble was worth burning an option for a few days' work; they had to figure someone that nearly MLB-ready wouldn't need more than 3 years' worth of options anyway. But as things worked out, they did cost themselves some maneuvering room. Maybe this didn't have anything to do with this trade, but quite likely it did: If Bobby Cox was saying there's no way he could count on Devine to be ready to be a full-fledged participant on a playoff-contending team come opening day (and Devine has given Cox little reason to trust him), then Wren may have figured he'd have to move him one way or another.
I should add
And when I said his ten-day trial in August 2005 showed him "not ready for prime time," I seem to have understated the case considerably, as Slusser's article recalls that he gave up grand slams in his first two major league appearances. Ouch! That's gotta be a record.
Sure hope he got all that out of his system.
excellent info and analysis, Faust
Thanks for that. That certainly explains how "value" is impacted by all sorts of things that aren't obvious on first glance.
The only thing harder than
turning water into wine may be turning Kendall and Kotsay into Blevins and Devine.
Interestingly:
a. Kotsay's sour and whiny demeanor could constitute the grapes needed to make the first conversion
b. Both conversions strongly involve the Devine
I think you've got it backwards.
Clearly, Kotsay is de vater.
Haha ha Braves fan site quote:
This is really one of those trades that has me thinking, "yuck." I'm not terribly excited about him, and I'm not happy surrendering Devine. Kotsay's career has been taking a turn in the wrong direction.
by Hawk on Jan 12, 2008 6:53 PM PST reply actions
I feel so much better after each and every trade
by visiting other team's fan sites and watch fans rant and rave about how Billy just stole a great piece (s) from their club. 1st Zona' then ChiSox and now Atlanta.
Keep it rollin' Billy.
But, Emil Brown???
by Hawk on Jan 12, 2008 6:58 PM PST reply actions
I LOVE it, so I'll assume it won't happen...
I could actually see Kotsay put up a .285/.350/.420 line, if his back is healthy. But the odds of his back being healthy is somewhere between the odds of Duke having a completely healthy season and Harden having a completely season. Not only are we letting someone else take that risk, Kotsay now can play for a WS caliber team, so I'm happy for him.
Kotsay, even if he did return to the aforementioned stats would not make sense on our team. We could have traded Kotsay for nothing but small salary relief and I would have liked it. But the fact is Devine isn't nothing. He gives us more depth and more prospects to spread our risk over.
This would be an amazing trade that could, hopefully, help both teams. Although if I were to bet who would come up with the better value, I know who'd I pick.
Now we need to get some up the middle prospects (SS, CF, 2b). Trust me, Mr Bavasi, Blanton is certainly worth Jones and Triunfel. I promise!
Yeah Bavasi
That would be a GREAT deal. We are ready when you are.
by Hawk on Jan 12, 2008 7:19 PM PST up reply actions
really, WS caliber team?
In the NL I think so
A team with Tex, Chipper, Francoeur, and McCann in the lineup as well as Glavine, Smoltz and Hudson in the rotation has a great chance at being a top playoff team. That's not to say they're on the same level as a team like the BoSox.
I agree
After a season of watching a league in which the Cubs and Brewers played tag all season and when the Rockies make it to the big show after barely making it to the playoffs, I'd say the Braves have a damn good shot at going far.
by Helloooo 1st on Jan 12, 2008 8:17 PM PST up reply actions
salary
wasn't kotsay's 2008 salary $8M ??? or was part of that a signing bonus that has already been paid?? i did read the $325K was an add on because of the trade.
i have a feeling kotsay will be better
this year, having recovered from injuries (maybe) and moving to the NL.
it's obviously a win for the a's to get anything back, but the braves need an outfielder and see kotsay as a temporary solution, so this may be a win for both teams.
the Braves are trying to find a temporary center fielder for at least the start of the 2008 season, or until they deem top-prospect Jordan Schaefer ready to take over the position permanently.
A's get another player along with Devine
from SuSlu:
The A's and the Braves edged closer to completing a deal that would send center fielder Mark Kotsay to Atlanta in exchange for right-handed reliever Joey Devine.
Oakland also will receive a Class-A pitcher in the deal, according to a Braves source. Oakland will pay $5 million of Kotsay's $7 million salary for 2008, and the A's also will pick up the $325,000 relocation bonus Kotsay is to receive for being traded.
If thats true
This trade looks even bettererer
by Helloooo 1st on Jan 12, 2008 8:18 PM PST up reply actions
For some reason I'm feeling
a lot better about that Enron stock I'm still holding onto.
I remember N. Ron -
short for Neifi Ronriguez, right? Hate the goggles, but gotta love the slider.
Beane should trade for L. Ron
WE'RE ALL GONNA DIANETICS!!!
Let's start speculating where Huston is going
NY ?? They need will need someone to step in for Rivera.
by Hawk on Jan 12, 2008 8:41 PM PST reply actions
not a big lose
Hes big time injury pron with his back and were getting a solid player back in return. Open a spot for carlos gonzalez and the rest of are young kids
Crossing my fingers
Does anybody know where Kotsay makes his offseason home? I'm not too optimistic about his chances at passing his physical after a cross-country flight. Hopefully the A's will give him a super-duper first class ticket with accompanying massuese.
Also, how much ML service time has Joey Devine accumulated?
Per Cot's
171 days.
So he'll be a Super Two, but the A's will have him for 6 full seasons.
And he can still stay at a Super 8
and if he rooms with Kaz Tadano ...
Awesome
Thanks. I hope the trade goes through AND Kotsay has a respectable .280/.335/.425 bounceback season. It would still be a steal for Beane, or should Forst start getting some of the credit?
I Think Cindi
should get credit for making this trade happen. Afterall, it isn't everday that Cindi allows one of her"hotties" to go to another club for a "Red Vine".
%:)
YAY!!!!!!!!!
Anyone have a picture of this Joey Redvine? Medium-hottie at least, I hope?
{crosses fingers} Oops - wrong fingers! {crosses second and third ones ... Well actually it's the first and second ones if you don't count the thumb as a "finger" ... Does the thumb count as a "finger"? ... Hmm ... Well anyway.}
-Cindi
among other former A's
it also mentions Dotel and Damien Miller.
by rollierollieOxenfree on Jan 13, 2008 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
Atlanta May Be Getting Kotsay for 2 Million...
However the 7 million we were on the payroll for was a sunk cost. Therefore, getting a top ten prospect while saving 2 million sounds like a great trade to me.
by MoneyManWilliam on Jan 13, 2008 12:14 AM PST reply actions
A little more than $2 million?
By trading Kotsay, we incur an additional $325K, as specified in his contract. That means our net savings for unloading him on Atlanta only $1,675,000.
On the other hand, I think if we had just cut Kotsay outright, the Braves or someone else would have signed him for major-league minimum. Not guaranteed, but a safe bet, I think. Kotsay may be a terrible deal at $7 million, but for $390K, I think several teams would have taken a gamble on him having one more year in him.
So $2M - $325K + $390K = $2,065,000 savings. Did I figure that right?
Nah ...
the $390k should really be subtracted ... and it's $500k, which is the veteran's minimum.
We're really only saving $1.15m.
Hmm, OK, let's try again.
I didn't know veteran league minimum is more than normal league minimum.
So if we don't trade Kotsay and instead just cut him, the $325k doesn't kick in, so we owe him $7m. If someone else signs him for the minimum of $500k, we still pay $6.5m.
If we do trade as announced, then we're paying his total salary is $7.35m, of which Atlanta pays $2m and we pay $5.35m.
Difference between $6.5m and $5.35m is .... oh, what do you know? I started writing this post thinking I was proving you wrong, but it turns out I'm proving you right. $1.15m it is. Well, shut my mouth then.
If there's one thing I'm good at ...
it's basic arithmetic ...
Loaiza Trade
Why couldn't Beane have gotten a "Levine-Type", or a "Blevins-Type" prospect back for E-Lo this offseason? That trade still has me scratching my head.
what? that was a great trade
loaiza for not having to pay loaiza.
could the dodgers make that trade right now?
He probably could have ...
If he wanted to pay a large portion of E-Lo's upcoming salary.
Cuz w/ saving money on Loaiza...
by Colorado Fan on Jan 13, 2008 10:45 AM PST up reply actions
If Beane thought the A's were healthy enough to
contend, that money we aren't paying Loaiza, would have went towards Bonds, but with the rebuild it looks just like unnecessary cost cutting. Hindsight is always 20/20
by theblackpearl on Jan 13, 2008 11:01 AM PST up reply actions
devine
on various blogs i've read comments suggesting devine has back problems and/or an arthritic hip.
anyone know about this and how serious it may be?
Devine looks just fine to me
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qS3pgf6Qfk0
But maybe he looks better in the ring than he does on the field.
by CurveballKing on Jan 13, 2008 3:06 PM PST up reply actions
Could be an ok trade, who knows
Kotsay needed to go, it's true. But we just paid $5 Mil. for a 23 y/o RP prospect. Even in today's dollars, that's a lot of money.
Like I was saying to grover the other day
about Kendall, this arithmetic doesn't add up.
I doubt the Braves would have been willing to take Kotsay even in return for nothing (or a 28-year-old Single A pitcher, which is as close to "nothing" as you can get) if they had to pay his full salary.
It's an open (and unknowable) question how much money the A's would have had to pony up just to get Kotsay off their hands, but I suspect Atlanta wouldn't have taken him for more than $5 million. Given that, Devine is costing the A's more like 3 million than 5 (since Atlanta is now getting him for 2 million, the 3 million that they aren't paying becomes the "purchase price" for Devine)
It is a lot independantly
But as far as I'm concerned Devine at $5 million helps this team more than Kotsay at $7 million. Add in the fact that Devine will be under control for 5 more years while Kotsay would be gone for nothing after this year, and the deal adds a lot more value to this team.
I think that's the most important thing when evaluating a trade, is the team in better position after the trade than before. I would say absolutely they are.
I disagree As Man...
The 5 million we are paying to Atlanta to help cover Kotsay's contract is a sunk cost (and don't forget we have control for Devine for 6 years)
by MoneyManWilliam on Jan 13, 2008 10:20 PM PST reply actions
Two seperate thought
Sorry - that was suppose to be two separate thoughts - 1)sunk cost and 2)control of Devine for 6 years.
by MoneyManWilliam on Jan 13, 2008 10:22 PM PST up reply actions
We could have gotten to use Kotsay in 08 though
That's what the contract is for, Kotsay's services.
I inherently distrust trades with Atlanta. They are shrewd dudes.
When the Braves Talk About Pitching ...
The old Lou Piniella line was that 'when the Braves start pitching, run out of the room.' Since which time the A's have traded twice for Braves pitchers. The first time was ... um, let's see ... oh, yeah: the Braves got Tim Hudson and the A's got, uh, Dan Meyer.
So now we're all high fiving it because the A's stole another Atlanta pitcher? The confidence is running pretty high in Oakland these days.
Why are the A's paying for $3 million of Kot's salary? And why are the Braves, who at the end of last year had Mark Redman in their starting rotation (!) willing to move this former #1 draft pick?
Well the Braves fan's aren't too enamored with
the new GM Frank Wren, so maybe the jinx is off with JS, not pulling the strings anymore.
by theblackpearl on Jan 14, 2008 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
Kotsay: Not Tim Hudson
Even if Devine flames out completely, the A's will be no worse than even on this trade. That's why it's so awesome-- there's literally no downside to it, and the upside is a Street-quality reliever.
The Braves did spend a first-round pick on him, so they were high on him at some point. I think Bobby Cox just disliked him for some reason-- maybe he blamed him (subconsciously?) for the 2005 playoff loss.
I agree
Kotsay wasn't going to make a difference this season, even if he managed to play out of his mind (which he probably wouldn't have). Instead of paying $7 million for practically nothing, we're paying $5 million for practically nothing, and got a potentially solid reliever in the package. This was a solid trade.
by CurveballKing on Jan 14, 2008 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
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