Weighing In On My Former Favorite Player
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 8:08 AM PDT
in News
139 comments
Anyone want to hear more on Bonds? Anyone?
<crickets>
It should come as no surprise to anyone who knows me that Milton Bradley has been one of my favorite players in the whole league back since his days with Cleveland. I used to watch him in Los Angeles, and was delighted when he came to play for the A’s. I love Milton’s passion, his fire, the way he plays when he’s healthy; just his overall love for the game. I can’t blame him for his injuries; he came with an ‘injury risk’ caveat from the very first game. But what I don’t love are his recent comments about the A’s, and, in my opinion, the completely unnecessary playing of the race card.
With the obvious disclaimer that I do not, cannot, and will not ever fully understand the complexities of race relations, especially in a sport with a shameful history that is not even close to being fully repaired, I feel that I can still--from my own limited and no doubt myopic view--offer some thoughts on the subject. To be fair, I have received my own criticism in this sport; not because of my race, but because of my gender; in fact, one of the first emails I ever received after becoming a front page writer was to the effect of, "Thanks for offering your shallow and pithy analysis of this sport, but why don’t you stick to what you are good at--rating players’ asses--and leave the writing to the men, okay?"
Lovely sentiment.
But while I absolutely agree with some of the underlying issues brought to light by Milton’s comments, especially about Beane’s control of the team, he absolutely lost me the moment he played the race card. Wasn’t there enough ammunition already? Couldn’t Milton have made a strong enough case on its own merit? And if I was Shannon Stewart, and had no prior issue with Beane, I’d have an issue with Milton dragging my name into the mess based solely on my race.
This whole debacle has shades of the Sheffield attack on Torre earlier this year. While I am not a Yankees fan, nor an overly huge fan of Torre, I will absolutely defend him on that charge, for the sole reason that I was a ridiculously huge fan of Darryl Strawberry, all the way to the end of his baseball career. And while I saw him caught in the grips of a disease he couldn’t even pretend to control, I also saw the multiple chances, the help, and what seemed to be genuine outpouring of support that he got from the organization.
If Sheffield and Bradley don’t have the credibility that they somehow think they should, I would daresay that it has little to do with their race, and everything to do with their refusal to accept responsibility for the reoccurring problems that seem to follow them from team to team.
To clarify, I am in no way suggesting that race is not still an issue in baseball. I am not that incredibly naïve to believe that. But as I can only speak for myself, I can say without a hint of prejudice that it simply doesn’t matter to me. My favorite players are judged on the way they play baseball; the way I follow them off the field; the way they catch my eye when they are at bat; the way I cheer for them when they succeed. Isn’t that the bigger goal? Isn’t that what brought baseball together in the first place? Forgive me, but I like my team. I like liking our players, regardless of background, race, marital status or clutch-i-ness. And it is not without a hint of resentment that I am forced to think of one of my favorite players in a different light, based on comments said out of hurt and in anger.
I think Milton took a cheap shot because he could. And I think he lost credibility that he may have earned by doing so. And yes, the love affair is over. But not without a major league sense of disappointment. I really expected better.
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Couldn't have said it better....
I agree with all of your thoughts, except for your last where you expected better. Sadly, I'm forever the pessimist, and expected something like this from Milton since the beginning... He seems to burn every bridge, sooner or later, with every team he plays for.
by polytician on Aug 8, 2007 8:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I never felt comfortable
watching Bradley. All the things you said about him were true but I was in a constant state of anxiety watching him wondering when the next called strike or close play would throw him into a tirade that would get him suspended or thrown out of a game. I also always wondered how his tirades would affect the clubhouse, or when a fight would break out over some minor issue.
I suspect his latest tirade about BB and the A's was more anger over the fact he wasn't going to be part of the A's any longer, something he no doubt realized when BB made the early season trades for Denofria, Snelling and Cust. I suspect he thought after last year when he had finally found an organization he had had some success with, a year without incident that he had found a home, and then the injury, the trades, the realization that he would be moving on again set him against the one guy he could attack with impunity.
by china bob on Aug 8, 2007 8:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think that when you're a minority
that has legitimately experienced discrimination at various points in your life, it's very easy to develop a persecution complex, and perceive discrimination where none exists. It's a defense mechanism.
by jeepers on Aug 8, 2007 8:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He needs to get over it, almost every black
person in america has faced discrimination at one time or another. I have been called n****r, more times than I can remember. In high school, living in Missouri, in the late 1980's no less, my good friend got kicked out of her house,how could you kick your high school aged honor student out, because I, a black man, well at that point I was still a teen, stepped into her house. She didn't know her parents prejudice ways. I was just with her boyfriend, my best friend, and came to pick her up for our school basketball game. We dropped her off at home, and her parents had locked the deadbolt and would not let her back in. Ignorance runs rampant everywhere, but if you let that run your life, you will remain forever angry.
by theblackpearl on Aug 8, 2007 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's awful...seriously.
I hate that you went through that. Please know that my comments about Milton and race in no way minimize the still ugly problem in this country.
I have no doubt Milton has experienced it personally, as has Sheffield and Bonds, and probably every single other black professional athelete.
But I think incidents like this actually excacerbate the problem. Play the race card when it's warranted and bring some attention to unacceptable behavior.
But from the way I see it, Milton was just fine with Billy until his playing time was in jeopardy...and then he got angry and automatically tacked on the 'well, you must be racist' tagline.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point is if Milton has seen as much racism, as
he portrays, he needs to be an adult and rise above it. If you want to see racism, you will. I have been to jobs where I felt I was the most qualified, but didn't get the job. It could have been racism, it could have been, I didn't do as well as I thought. It is easy for black people to use the race card, a little too easy in my estimation.
by theblackpearl on Aug 8, 2007 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough.
And you are far more qualified than I to assess the situation.
But what I don't get is how easy it would have been for Milton to make a case without the race card! Beane followers are at their lowest moral since 1999. The A's aren't playing well. They unexpectedly 'fired' their best offensive threat. There was a story there, and Beane wasn't telling it.
Why not put some of the legitimate complaints out there? I would have believed him. I don't trust the trainers; I think Beane is hiding something with the injury issues...people would have listened to Milton.
But, in my opinion, by throwing the race card, he ruined whatever credibility he had with what could have been a legitimate story, and that's frustrating.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well unless Larry Davis flew down to SD, or still
has a Milton voodoo doll, the injury thing hasn't changed
OF Milton Bradley (right hamstring) did not start for the fourth straight game and manager Bud Black said he was ``still a few days away'' from returning to the lineup. If the injury lingers, the Padres will consider placing him on the DL
by theblackpearl on Aug 8, 2007 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I totally agree by the way...
...all of us can't control how we are treated, but we can choose how to react.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well written
couldn't agree more. I lived 10 years of my life in China and Japan, a singular white face in a sea of Asians, been called all the epithets in their native tongues, I speak both Japanese and Chinese so I understood well what they said, having said that I wouldn't trade one minute of my time there for all the wonderful experiences I had living in those two countries. If you are comfortable in who you are then those small things have no meaningful effect on the rest of your life. It says a lot more about the people who say that than it does about you. Nice job, Black Pearl, I always enjoy reading what you write, always well thought out and reasonable.
by china bob on Aug 8, 2007 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that
I think Milton made great strides as a person last year, when things were going well. That comfort level kept him completely out of trouble, made him more accessible to the public, and inspired a concerted effort to improve his public image (remember all the "Yay, Milton!" articles in the press late last year and early this).
Sadly, when things got rough again, he reverted to his comfort level. Hopefully, he can get back to a better place in San Diego. While the race comments he made about Beane were unwarranted, the other comments weren't--just look at how Kielty confirmed what Milton said about how the Klown was treated by him.
by jeepers on Aug 8, 2007 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Kielty also said...
that he talked to Beane face-to-face about that comment at the time it was made, and cleared the air. Even if he continued to feel afterwards that it had been a disrespectful thing for Beane to say, Kielty handled it the way a mature adult should have, and moved on without yapping to uninvolved parties about it, or turning it into anything other than what it was.
by Poppy on Aug 8, 2007 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My parents never displayed racial bias
..They used to love all the Dodgers, my mom worshipped OJ when he was at USC, but you know, they still gave a racial bias to things, you could tell... why? Because we all do, circa late 20th century, early 21st century America. It's the legacy of this society from the awful race days of lynchings, Jim Crow laws, second-class treatment for anyone that is not among the "privledged". Plain and simple, no one is going to throw a switch, make a speech ("I have a dream"), pass a law, and somehow obliterate the ocean of social momentum from the past. Not two years ago, I was sitting in a jury box, getting selected (and later, deselected) from the prospective jurors, for a DUI trial of a young Hispanic man. I watched a young black man (abbr. YBM) take his turn for scrutiny by the judge and attorneys. My first take, a prejudicial take no question, was visual, and just from his manner and speech, I surmised this YBM was, "gangsta wannabe, maybe didn't get out of high school". I love to tell this story on myself, because I could NOT have been more wrong on my "first impression". This guy was a young engineer with Chevron, and his mother was an FBI agent!
Because the defendant was Hispanic, the jurors were questioned in a way to draw out their racial bias, and any biases toward the police. This YBM had purchased a sports car with his earnings, and told story after story about the police making u-turns and stopping him, because, visually, something was "wrong" with a YBM in an expensive car. The judge asked him how it made him feel about the police. He said, "Well, I just decided, "I got to get rid of this car.""
Wow. Hearing that story just shows, for individuals everywhere, this is a transition society, and there is no sense in overtly playing the race card because like the Earth's gravity, it's always there, but we already KNOW that, and deal with it.
by One won lost won on Aug 8, 2007 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly...
...and like I said before, I can't imagine what these athletes must have gone through at some point in their lives, faced with the ignorance of a nation that is still not where it needs to be.
But both people have to do their part. In a situation like this, where--funny thing--Milton never had a problem with Beane until the playing time issue, Milton needed to direct his comments on what really happened, and why he was really angry with Beane. Instead, he went for the maximum shock value and claimed that Beane was a racist.
The real problem is...when that word is thrown around, or packaged as an insult for a totally seperate issue, it loses its power, and it becomes the 'cry wolf' theory. Who is going to crack down on a real racist manager/GM/umpire if it's such an easy insult thrown out there that it loses all effectiveness? Sheffield and Bradley come across as nothing more than sour grapes, hiding behind a real issue in sports.
And that is not helping anyone move forward in race relations.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll say it - race is not an issue in baseball.
Period.
Nobody who can hit .300 and is black is passed over for someone who can only hit .280 but is white.
Never.
Maybe in 1962, but not now. Not at a time when all teams have academies in central america and the carribean. Not at a time when a great Latino player is paid $25m a year to show up. Not at a time when black managers and coaches are all over the league, and when a black player's homerun baseball will fetch $2m on eBay.
Does the occasional idiot fan yell something about race? Sure. They also yell about steroids, waist size, hair color and criminal records.
Should there be more programs to keep black kids playing ball, and on a level that is competitive with the Southern California Little League programs that see wealthy parents paying former Major-Leaguers coaching 8-year-olds? Absolutely. But there should also be programs encouraging Asian kids to play, and Indian kids, and Belarusian kids, and Eskimo kids.
No, race is not an issue in baseball, except when someone of a minority race is sent packing by a team who didn't think they could use him anymore - then suddenly it's 1912 all over again.
by Ozzz on Aug 8, 2007 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Superb comment Oz.
Really well said.
by OaktownPower on Aug 8, 2007 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Take
In my opinion Milton Bradley has showed his (no pun intended) true colors. The guy has had a problem in one way or another with every organization he has played for. Why would have the A's been any different?
I give Bradley his props for helping out the team last season. He did a good job of just playing baseball and I think the A's front office appreciated it.
What happened this season are two things. One, Bradley was oft-injured and, two, the emergence of Travis Buck. With Kotsay coming back the log jam in the outfield got larger. Bradley became expendable.
One would hope that Bradley would have been content to go to a contending team in San Diego and let his play prove to Billy Beane that it was a mistake to let him go, but noooooooo.
Mr. Persecution decides that the A's have wronged him and now wants to paint Beane as a ego-maniac and racist to boot. He even feels that it is his job to speak for Shannon Stewart.
I had always thought Bradley was a tool before he came to Oakland. While in an A's uniform I still thought so, but he was OUR tool. His whiny condemnation of the A's just proves it more.
by RudiFan on Aug 8, 2007 8:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Part of me thinks
that the Tribune thought that they would justify their own column about Beane by asking Bradley about this issue. I mean, they came away with egg on their face last month with the column and then this gave them an opportunity to put it back out there.
And Bradley being the bitter, angry guy he is jumped all over the opportunity.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Aug 8, 2007 9:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i think that's a pretty astute observation
and could see that opportunistic thing going on at the trib
by giambizombie on Aug 8, 2007 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree, bbg.
Due to some furniture-shuffling at home, I haven't even taken any of this year's bobbleheads out of their boxes yet (there's currently no bobblehome, and the ones that had been displayed previously are all just bobbling in an open packing box right now). I'm thinking of leaving BobbleMilton in his own box even when I finish establishing a place for the rest... maybe he needs a bobble-timeout... LOL
(But I won't. I still love my memories of loving Milton and what he did for the A's last year, so I'll let him out.)
by Poppy on Aug 8, 2007 9:12 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Heh...'bobble timeout'
I still have mine too. It's in a box & I'll sure keep it for the memories. I'm just sorry they're...what's the word, Bonds?...tainted.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Bonds, although he has been ostracize
by everyone, very rarely has he used the race card, and he is the most highly visible, A.frican-American athlete going now. The race card has been played with the Balco, but he is not the one who says it, it is always media, and other African-Americans. I may not always like him, but I respect what he has gone through as a human, not as a ball player
by theblackpearl on Aug 8, 2007 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was more impressed with him last night
than I ever have been.
From all media accounts, his dad was very distrustful of people because of ugly incidents of racism in his life, and Barry must have grown up being wary of the media, etc. etc. I liked how he credited an entire generation of black athletes and the strides they have made in their respective sports. Was very classy giving credit where it was due.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tend to be somewhat ambivalent about Bonds
but compared to the mediots and Selig, he has conducted himself with amazing grace and dignity.
by rfloh on Aug 8, 2007 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have only one thing to say
in response to your post, baseballgirl: Sorry about that email. I was drunk.
by Nico on Aug 8, 2007 9:43 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So
it was you!!!
I can never believe that.
by sf drift king on Aug 8, 2007 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me neither
It creases me, it does. It's really wrong...
[sigh] At least the idiot was ignored, thankfully.
by paradox on Aug 8, 2007 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
by the end of this year, you'll be hearing
about the padres organization begin racist, or whatever else is in Miltons head at the time. its just Milton, being Milton. Hes just a tool.
as much as i liked Milton, i could not get myself to cheer him on as my favorite player...i just never had any respect for the guy...i knew something like this would eventually happen. i think deep down, we all did.
i have no respect for the guy whatsoever.
by PSHABAZ on Aug 8, 2007 9:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Of course the Padres are racist--
Just look at how they send that tool Jake Peavy out there time and time again, while Cla Meredith only gets to pitch, like, an inning at a time.
by Nico on Aug 8, 2007 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually feel sorry for Milton
It's a terrible feeling when you realize that the one place where you finally "fit in" doesn't or can't be a home to you anymore.
I feel like he's a guy who's just been turned into a terrible person by a series of really negative experiences. He's been destroyed by his frustrations. And that's a sad thing to see.
by PaulThomas on Aug 8, 2007 9:57 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And it's all just bad luck. If he stayed healthy
he would be starting still in the outfield for the A's. I guess he's frustrated and has to blame someone or something for that which cannot be controlled. Health.
by A'sfansince1970 on Aug 8, 2007 9:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That's assuming he can't control his health
It has been suggested that Milton doesn't take care of his body (and looking at it, I would say he is far from a fitness fanatic), and separately it has been suggested that Milton is not always as hurt as he claims to be--that his "moods" and "health" are intertwined.
I don't know if one or both are true, but they are factors Milton could control and may choose not to.
by Nico on Aug 8, 2007 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What did Milton say?
Could someone quote him for me? I've looked everywhere and haven't found it.
by Mulderfan on Aug 8, 2007 10:16 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's the article...
http://www.insidebayarea.com/sports/...
Here's the diary about it:
http://www.athleticsnation.com/story...
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ALT.VIEW to most of you
If anyone cares here, I'll chime in with an alternative view...
Fact: Bradley did not say a word after being DFA'd. In fact, he kept his mouth closed on the subject for nearly 6 weeks. This does not support his desire to get even with the A's. (he may have been concerned about preventing a trade to the Royals)
Fact: Many of us felt he deserved a chance when we got him and welcomed him with open arms. He responded in kind and had his most enjoyable and 2nd most productive half-season in MLB.
Fact: Beane reacted immediately at the DelGrande column. Most people believe it was his unalienable right to defend himself being called a "racist." This defense mechanism, in my experience, is typical of White males in this society.
Observation: If I ever point out the possibility that a White Man's actions are racist, they rarely ever get over it and our relationship suffers. (I could care less about that) My work, sadly, is never done. The details MB described were extremely believable to me. If Beane had not responded to the Tribune, the follow up interview would not have happened. This issue goes away. MB may have lost you BBG. But, just maybe, even though we said we're different here, we just AREN'T. Is it that hard to believe? I don't see evidence that Milton ever "played" the race card here. I think he just refuses to act the way people think he should.
by eshock on Aug 8, 2007 10:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yay for alternate views!!!
But I completely disagree :-)
Why on earth can't a guy like Beane or Torre defend the serious charge of being a racist, especially when it was issued by players who have had known problems in the past? I'd be pissed if that was the charge I found myself defending, if I felt that race had no place in the argument at hand.
If you really believe that the alternation with Beane and Bradley was based on race, then how do you explain last year? Bradley had nothing but great things to say about Beane while he was healthy, playing every day, and helping the team. All of a sudden, frustration rears its ugly head when Milton cannot (or will not) stay healthy, and somehow that makes Beane a racist?
This quote did it for me:
"Just look at it, you tell me," he said. "It's a mighty coincidence that every black guy who's been there the last three years — you can go back to Jermaine Dye, Terrence Long, Mike Singleton — is gone. When I was with Cleveland, I'd ask guys, 'How do you like it here?' and they'd say, 'We can't get in a game over here, we can't stand it over here.' Then I got there, and I said, 'Man, I don't see any of that.' Then 2007 rolled around, and I started seeing it.
"I don't know how Stew (Shannon Stewart) still does it. When I was there, asking why am I not playing, I was also saying, 'Why is Stew not playing?' He was hitting .300 then, he's the only guy they got hitting .300 now. But he still can't get in there to play every day.
That's his argument about Beane being a racist? Are you kidding?! No one in the A's organization in their right mind would have signed Thomas for the deal that the Blue Jays did...and I don't care who he is. And Jay Payton? Dime a dozen player for a lot less money.
As for Ron Washington? He was going to be a manager, or he wasn't going to stay. Beane went a different route, and hired his best friend. Not smart? Perhaps? Automatically makes him a racist? No.
And Jermaine Dye, Terrence Long, and Mike Singleton? At the time of their departures, there were no reasons to keep them. And I don't know how many games Milton watched, but Shannon is playing, probably far more than he thought he would!
It's not like Beane got rid of really amazing, fabulous 100% healthy players who would sign for little money. He made the best financial decision he could with what he had, and I honestly believe that Beane is motivated more by money than he is by race.
I never defended Beane as I did Torre. I think the charge against Torre as a racist was ridiculous, and it actually kind of pissed me off. I have no way of knowing what Beane thinks about race, or if he treats players as Milton says.
My point was the Milton had a very strong case and a story to tell WITHOUT having to include his race as part of it. I think it weakened his credibility far more than anything else he could have said.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To clarify your question
Beane did not respond after Milton's comments (at least not in letter form). He responded to Del Grande's article. So, there is a major difference as the source for conflict. This is a Rashomon phenomenon. Clearly, the MB interview revealed much more than Beane would have liked.
The description of Tye Waller sitting in on meetings. Is it possible that Beane inserted Waller in a substitute role that Washington occupied for 12 seasons. Is MB thinking, just because this coach is Black, am I supposed to have some special bond where he needs to be here? MB was refreshingly unique in building bonds with Swisher, Thomas and possibly Macha. Aren't these all facts? A lot of these curious actions after the 2006 postseason, taken aggregately, suggest a fire behind the smoke.
But, I appreciate your response BBG (you're clearly a free-thinker). I just don't think that being called a "racist" is as serious a charge as most people assume. To deny it, is dishonest. It asserts that prejudice is not a universal trait. And, that the journey of life is filled with eye-opening experiences that can either exacerbate or temper these views. I happen to like dudes like MB more than dudes like Kotsay because I think they are more honest and real. Unfortunately, alienation is the outcome when challenging public opinion.
by eshock on Aug 8, 2007 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know how MLB meetings work...
but is it unusual for a player's position coach to sit in on meetings that involve the player? Tye Waller isn't just "the black coach", he's the outfielders' coach. (I'll admit to not remembering whether the original article mentioned if Waller was also present for meetings with Kotsay, Buck, Kielty, etc...)
by Poppy on Aug 8, 2007 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Waller is the 1st Base coach
Is he the outfield coach as well?
by eshock on Aug 8, 2007 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Once in a while you can see him repositioning guys when they show the A's dugout while the other team is batting.
by PaulThomas on Aug 8, 2007 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You never see him
repositioning the white players...Hmm...
by Nico on Aug 8, 2007 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that's certainly fair.
I will admit that I raised an eyebrow at the Waller statement, and could certainly see where MB might be suspicious of that. I don't think the race problem is on MB's side at all...he seems to build real relationships wtih his teammates, regardless of color, and I think that is to his credit.
And I completely think that everyone to an extent has views about other people that are either confirmed or shattered during life experiences, and if we are lucky in this life, we meet amazing people from all walks of life, and realize that good human traits are not rooted in one country, or one race.
I also liked MB more than Kotsay. Mark Kotsay is a weasel who hides behind the media, and who never was quoted freely until after Macha was gone.
You knew you would get a straight answer from Milton, even if it wasn't politically correct, or even flattering. ;-)
But that doesn't change the fact that Milton refuses to take responsibility for his own actions in the problems that he's had. He is so quick to blame everyone else than he can't take a hard look at how he might be contributing to the problem.
And I am disappointed, to be honest. There is WAY more to the story about Beane than we know, and I was looking for some revelation from Milton...and if he could have stepped back for five seconds without the persecution complex, I think the story would have been far more interesting.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In defense of Kotsay
I love Kotsay, so this may be a bit of a bias opinion.
From a Public relations point of view, there are certain things players simply can't say. They have a meeting with their PR rep and vent frustrations and the PR rep's immediate response usually goes something like this, "I understand your frustration, I really do. It is unfortunate that you are feeling this way. If it becomes a real problem that doesn't get solved, I will speak with your agent about a trade. But for now, just don't speak to the media about this. Don't say a word. If you do, don't let them say it was you who said it. This will blow over, don't worry!" They try to smooth things over and keep all negative out of the press. They don't want to cause a stir, so they intervien before the players can talk to the media.
I don't believe Kotsay has been "hiding behind the media." I think that he has just honed his PR skills over these many years of baseball and is not quite so short tempered that he will fly off at the mouth the minute he gets a little frustrated. He spoke about Macha after the fact because he finally could, he was given permission. Before, he was "a source!" Because he had to be, not because he wanted to be.
by BobbyCrosbysGirl on Aug 8, 2007 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why did he HAVE to be a source
before? Is there anything in his contract stipulating that he HAS to give anonymous quotes to the media? Is it part of his job maybe? Instead of hitting baseballs? Did the A's sign a contract for him to handle PR?
by rfloh on Aug 8, 2007 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He didn't HAVE to be
But I can be certain that it was considered better for his career to not rock the boat if it could be helped. And ANY time you talk to the media, either good or bad, you run the risk of rocking the boat. So I think he was better off not talking crap about his co-workers. How often has that worked out well anyones career?
by BobbyCrosbysGirl on Aug 8, 2007 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So why was he giving anonymous quotes to the
media? He WAS hiding behind the media. Coward.
by rfloh on Aug 8, 2007 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did I miss something
that plainly states that Mark Kotsay is/was a constant media source for all things coming out of the A's clubhouse?
I'm not quite clear on how Kotsay's name got associated with the MB story. If it's the supposed spy that reports everything back to Beane, then how did a player that spent most of March-June somewhere other than the A's clubhouse, do all this spying & reporting?
by swinghard on Aug 8, 2007 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to the sources last year
Kotsay was an important part in the firing of Macha.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK..by sources you mean
the media that printed the quotes about Macha's firing? I got that. But other than the Macha firing is there something else? I seriously wanted to know if I missed something, being a NRAF, it's easy for me to miss A's media coverage.
I just didn't remember reading anything about Kotsay in the Bradley articles.
by swinghard on Aug 8, 2007 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing to do with the Milton stuff.
Kotsay vs. Macha is just being compared to Milton vs. Beane. That is all.
by BobbyCrosbysGirl on Aug 8, 2007 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My issue with Kotsay is about the Macha stuff
IMO, Kotsay behaved like a typical "gritty", "team first" player: selfish, AND cowardly.
by rfloh on Aug 8, 2007 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No argument there
And it's why, despite my previous admiration for Kotsay as a player, I actually advocated trading him last Winter. If you're going to get rid of Macha, you should also get rid of Kotsay--otherwise the wrong message is sent, and I believe that the wrong message was sent. It's no wonder players feel free to gripe about the next manager--the next manager came in following a precedent that guys like Kotsay and Kendall, with their lineups slipped under the door, are bigger than the manager.
by Nico on Aug 8, 2007 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just throwing out a theory
But... It might be possible that this is not the first time that Milton "played the race card." If that was a standing issue, and there were fears that he may try and do it again, I could totally see why they would want Tye in the meetings.
It is simmilar to when a woman is being questioned by the police. They will never have only male cops in the room. There is ALWAYS a woman present. It is procedure. If, somewhere along the lines, Milton expressed concern about race relations in the clubhouse, that might be when they started including Wash or Tye in the meeting with him and/or other black players.
Just a thought, don't jump down my throat about this, it is just a theory!
by BobbyCrosbysGirl on Aug 8, 2007 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's actually my SECOND theory...
A close second after my "Waller is the outfielders coach" theory.
by Poppy on Aug 8, 2007 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And by the way...
were the police questioning you for something shortstop-stalking related? ;)
by Poppy on Aug 8, 2007 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe... ;)
by BobbyCrosbysGirl on Aug 8, 2007 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
Milton DID publicly respond after the DFA, and with a lot of class. He said that the A's "handled this the right way." You have to wonder if Carl Steward stirring the pot was the main impetus for his subsequent comments, not some deep-seated resentment.
by jeepers on Aug 8, 2007 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know the one guy he left out...
... Gerald Perry. I think he left the same time Wash did, and if I'm not mistaken, it was a bit of a surprise. According to this
Perry, 46, who agreed to a two-year deal, has been a Major League hitting coach for seven seasons, including last year with the American League West Division champion Oakland Athletics. He helped the A's rebound from a first-half .243 team batting average to post a .279 average in the second half, fifth-best in baseball.
Under his guidance, the Athletics finished second in the AL with 650 walks. It was the fourth time in which Perry helped an offense rank first or second in the league in walks (also 2000-2002 with Seattle).... His contract with Oakland ended after the 2006 season, and he wasn't sure who would be managing the Athletics after Ken Macha was fired.
"This was a good opportunity to get back with [Piniella]," Perry said. "I know he's going to put a winning team out there and a competitive team, day in and day out."
Something here sort of alludes to the fact that the team's direction under Beane's hand of rule was considered too heavy, and that between the players' gripes and Beane's management, some people just weren't happy about not being rewarded (monetarily speaking) for having some success, which you might expect in a big business like Major League Baseball.
...of course, I should be one to talk, I work for the state so I am never rewarded, period. But with Macha's firing/hiring/ALCS appearance/2nd firing, plus Wash leaving right away (I remember he interviewed with the A's, but took the TX job before the interview process was over), then Perry takes the Cubs job, Big Hurt follows the dollar signs to Toronto...
It just paints an odd picture, and I see Milton's griping to be his perspective on what happened, without any real informed knowledge. "Behind closed doors" is exactly that, and Beane's MO, in addition to the new park, SJ soccer team, and new status as part owner of the team, will always be his and his alone.
I'm not saying he's a 'micro-manager', but ... well, maybe I am. It can't be easy to be the most dynamic GM in baseball for six years running.
by popcornjames on Aug 8, 2007 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wash was offered the job
I remember reading that before accepting he called Beane first to tell him about the offer. At that point Beane could have made a counteroffer, but instead congratulated Wash.
Wash had also said the year before that he would likely accept the first MLB manager offer because of his strong desire to manage.
by OaklandSi on Aug 8, 2007 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd pay a buck twenty for a dozen
"And Jay Payton? Dime a dozen player for a lot less money."
If these players are so common, why can't Beane find more of them?
by Rickeyfan on Aug 9, 2007 2:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton shot off his mouth.
He originally tried to take the high road but it was too much for him. He's always been hot-blooded so I wasn't surprised. I still wish him well and hope as time goes on he will remember his time in Oakland as fondly as I remember his time in Oakland. So good luck , Kid, try to keep your mouth closed.
by IM4Oakgal on Aug 8, 2007 10:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
BBG, I hope those sexist comments to you
weren't made from someone here on AN and if they were, then you should call them out. Let everyone know who this neanderthal is among us.
I share a lot of your sentiments. Meeting Milton Bradley and having him sign my flag was the coolest thing, esp for someone who doesn't give a crap about getting someone's autograph. MB will still be one of my favorite non-A's players. Miggy is the other. I also grew up loving the Straw man and Doc Gooden Those two guys were 2 of my biggest heroes growing up. If they only knew how much kids looked up to them, maybe their lives would've turned out differently.
Are we making a little too much of this? Can you really blame MB for playing the race card? I mean, he was angry at the organization, he tossed out the race card just to be sure his comments made the headlines and to get back at Beane. It worked! He succeeded. We all are still talking about a player who's no longer on the team.
Put yourself in Bradley's shoes: 2006 was the happiest of his baseball career. He finally found a home in Oakland. Combine that with the blindsided DFA and the near-miss purgatory to the Royals and how would you react?? Think about that for a moment. I'd be one p'd off mofo. I've been both laid-off and fired. Think about how it felt when you were let go from your 2nd family, the friends you've made and the time you gave to that organization. He popped off, released some steam, was it warranted, probably not but it did give me some insights into the A's organization, like Y does Beane spend so much damn time in the A's locker room? Isn't that for players and managers? There's prob some truth to some of the things he said, the race thing not being one of them.
Bottom line, it's Milton being Milton. We shouldn't let this consume us.
by sf drift king on Aug 8, 2007 10:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That's my conclusion:
There was much truth to many of the things Bradley said, but the race thing was entirely inaccurate. Just in the last two years, Billy brought over Bradley, Thomas, and Stewart when each was a big risk and most teams were unwilling to consider that risk. There is just no basis for any claims of racism. As for the rest? Plenty of basis, and good reason for Beane to look in the mirror to do more than just admire his own physique.
by Nico on Aug 8, 2007 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely!
The rest had plenty of merit, and unfortuntely, Milton made sure no one would take him seriously by clouding the real issues with race.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Completely Agree
Yes, Milton Bradley was grasping at straws with the race agruments, but let's not dimiss all that he said about the organization and its leader.
Sadly, the racial arguments hurt Bradley's credability and make it too easy to overlook his observations about the changing culture on the Oakland Athletics.
It's similiar to the way Jose Canseco was a horrible messenger, but, in my opinion, he was coming closer to telling the truth on steroids than anyone else.
by Eck on Aug 8, 2007 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Word.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, the racism comments
shouldn't be allowed to obscure the peek Bradley (and not only Bradley) offered into the changing culture of the organization.
I for one have the Bradley bobblehead on the same shelf with the others, including the Kielty troll. That's not going to change.
by OaklandSi on Aug 8, 2007 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh...thanks :-)
Yes, the comments were made from someone on AN. No, they are no longer a part of AN; I think more to do with their comments about the city of Oakland than women. ;-)
Hey, it was the best day of my life when Milton signed my shoulder. When he showed up for an interview to help out Robert Buan and the interns? Awesome.
I absolutely, 100%, and in no way blame MB for some of his comments. I would have been beyond hurt, and frustrated after the home I thought I felt in 2006, and it was all taken away the next year.
But how is that Beane's fault? Milton could NOT stay healthy; if he did, he would have played every single day and everyone knows it!
I have a serious problem with an athlete exploiting a problem that already exists in MLB simply for their own gain. How am I supposed to defend him, and to take his charges seriously, when he would hurl accusasions at the drop of a hat, just to hurt someone else.
For someone who claims that they want things to get better, he sure does his part to make sure that doesn't happen.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great. Now I have to try to think of
who is no longer part of AN and would bash the city of Oakland.
<scratches head, thinking>
<scratches crotch, just 'cuz>
by Nico on Aug 8, 2007 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I was so mysterious with that hint. ;-)
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree, BBG
I think that there were LOTS of reasons to get rid of Milton, and none of them had to do with race. Milton's argument on the subject is so weak, it just makes him look like a fool.
Like you said, I don't understand the race issue either. I was brought up to not see color and not make it an issue. So when someone sees it as an issue, my automatic reaction is, "You're Nut! Race has nothing to do with it!" After many years, I have learned that sometimes race does have something to do with it. But I absolutely do not believe this is one of those times.
The facts were, Milton was hurt ALL THE TIME! We had 6 possible outfielders at the time, maybe more! We were desperate for some pitching. And Milton was costing us too much money to sit on our DL all season. It was simply TIME. At the moment, it was a shock, but when logic set in, it made sense. It was the same reasons we lost Kielty! I see very little difference in the situations. And Kielty is as white as they come!
So I think, that it is time to simply say, "Milton, Thank you for 2006! Wish you well, but get off your your huffy bike and just leave us alone. You may not have been happy with your exit, but oh well... That is the way it goes sometimes. Move on!"
And that is what we need to do, Move On!
by BobbyCrosbysGirl on Aug 8, 2007 11:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A-men!
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton Bradley....
...is a fine baseball player - when he plays! As I said before, he is his own worst enemy. We all know people with talent who lack a sense of personal responsibility and who lash out at others for perceived offenses. I feel sorry for Bradley. He is wasting what could have been a remarkable career.
by doubleplayer on Aug 8, 2007 11:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would have preferred a Bonds story.
<throws in two pennies>
by timed exposure on Aug 8, 2007 12:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Have a hard time with that one
I care for baseball-related reasons. It was a great moment in sports.
But tainted for me. I don't like Bonds, and he's a cheater. AND he pretends not to be.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty ambivalent about Bonds
But I'm also kind of tired of discussion of Milton Bradley. (MB talk on AN = tired act?)
I'd rather look at the players we've got now, look toward moving forward rather than rehash the recent past, ad nauseum, when this subject seems to have been covered in numerous diaries.
And as for Bonds, it's a momentous occasion for baseball, that a hallowed record has fallen. I realize this is an A's blog, and that animosity for Bonds tends to run a bit high here, but for me that story trumps rumor and innuendo about the A's front office.
Plus, if we all want to talk race in baseball, the Bonds story is good for that too. There was a recent poll about the difference in how blacks and whites perceive stories about Bonds. It's similar to O.J. - blacks tended to think he was innocent, while whites tended to think he was guilty; with Bonds, blacks tend to think he gets a bad rap because he's black, whereas whites tend to think that he's a 'roided up jerk-freak.
All that said, I think you wrote a fine piece; I just would have preferred something different. =)
by timed exposure on Aug 8, 2007 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks :-)
I feel like I didn't really comment on Milton's departure at the time, and he was my favorite player for a long time...I was really interested to see AN's thoughts.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So where can i see bonds 756th homerun?
ESPN hasn't shown it enough...
by chavyizdamn3 on Aug 8, 2007 12:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
My take
I rarely post here, so I'm going to use up my year's supply of characters. I mostly just read all the great posts from baseballgirl and nice (hey, how was your massage?) We knew what we were getting into when we traded for Bradley-- a player with great talent and passion but a history of injuries and came with "baggage," including baggage about race (see the Jeff Kent comment). When he was here last year he felt welcomed. I seem to remember him saying on other teams there was more racial separation and since he was usually the only black person he would keep to himself-- but he didn't feel that way on the A's. So we knew what we were getting into when we traded for him.
In 2007, from what it looks like, Billy Beane has treated some players disrespectfully. There is confirmation from Kielty that Beane did, in fact, say Kielty was "stealing money." Bradley, consistant with his personality, is not going to put up with disrespect so he exploded.
As baseballgirl accurately points out, he didn't have to bring in race. There were enough other points to bring in without bringing in race, and now, since he brought in race, we are so busy talking about race that we are not talking as much about his other points. But did he play the race card? I think of playing the race card as when a racial minority has a conflict with a white person and in order to win the conflict they say "well, you're just a racist" to get the white person to feel guilty and back down. I don't think Bradley did that; instead, I think he actually believes that the A's organization is not a welcoming environment for African Americans and is not just saying it to win an argument. Nor do I think he said that Billy Beane is a racist. What he said, to the effect, is that the A's are not a welcoming organization if you are African American.
I think it's an important distinction. In many posts here and elsewhere Bradley is accused of calling Beane a racist, but I don't think he did. Instead, he is referring to his understanding of the experience of African American players that have been on the team. It's an important distinction because, often, whites and African Americans see racism as different. Whites are more likely to think of racism in terms of intent, while African Americans are more likely to see racism in terms of effect. One does not have to have a negative attitude toward people of a certain race in order for racism to occur. I think the shaking of the finger is a telling example. Beane probably didn't see it as racist, but as one poster here said, it's a huge no-no in the African American community. (if any of you are interested in more on this, read Bob Blauner's "Talking Past Each Other").
When racial minorities claim that there are conditions under which they are being treated unfairly, given the history of race relations in this country and in baseball, I think we need to look at it-- soberly and not defensively. Shannon Stewart seems to have a positive experience. What other evidence is there? Did Ty Waller feel tokenized? Do Singleton, Dye, Long, and Payton think that the A's are unwelcome toward African American players? Maybe some of them feel like they can't answer that without being interrogated and invalidated. If they do, that's an example of racism in our society, when you can't discuss the racism you're experiencing without being interrogated.
My final point is that maybe we should also be talking more about the A's this year and trouble in the clubhouse. Are Beane and Geren out of control? Are they taking any responsibility themselves for the A's record this year?
Okay, fire away....
John
by jmfox on Aug 8, 2007 12:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well put
And I don't have nearly the wherewithal to comment on all of it. But I will say that, while I don't think Bradley was trying to win an argument per se, I think he definitely could have "pulled the race card" because he deliberately wanted to tarnish Billy Beane's public image in a sort of tit for tat thing.
I can't know for sure, obviously, if BB is patronizing or if the A's organization as a whole is unwelcoming for an African American. I do know that some of the events Bradley mentioned-- the Kielty "yer stealin' money" bit comes to mind-- seem like they may be taken out of context. To me, that sounded like he was just joking with a guy who was known for being the clubhouse clown. Y'know, the retired ballplayer/GM trying to show his players that he's still "hip."
Still, one must wonder. Even though, as it said in the article, Frank Thomas and Shannon Stewart have only nice to things to say about the organization in terms of what they release to the public, it does make me take a step back when I realize that the A's don't really keep their black players around very long (although obviously they tried to re-sign Thomas and he just got more cash elsewhere). That may be a function of the small (and waning) proportion of black players in the game today... and it might not be. I guess I have to look at myself honestly and ask how much am I not believing Milton simply because I don't want to believe him.
One last thing-- I don't think Terrance Long should even factor into the equation, 'cuz that dude would infuriate anybody with his low level of play, whether he was black, white, or puce.
by Joey C. on Aug 8, 2007 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A's don't really keep their black players around
very long. That's true.
A's don't really keep their white players around very long either.
by iglew on Aug 8, 2007 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also true
It may just be a fiscal thing.
But if you look at the proportion of major leaguers tied up in long-term contracts, the ratio is heavily in favor of whites. Again, that may not in and of itself be significant (see my above comment about the low percentage of blacks playing today). And some of those contracts, I think, may have been concocted with the supposedly higher payroll the team will be using now that the new stadium is on the horizon.
But who knows for sure?
by Joey C. on Aug 10, 2007 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Many people don't like Sheffield because...
...he's a jerk, not because he's black. That little piece of knowledge seems to escape him, though. Bradley has difficulty fitting in anywhere for probably similar reasons.
I agree with most of the original post. I have a minor quibble with the part about baseball's past, only in that baseball was a reflection of overall society itself. It's not like they were the only ones discriminating. In fact, it shouldn't be forgotten that they began to integrate about 7 years BEFORE the Brown vs Board of Education ruling forced many schools to do so against their will. That doesn't necessarily excuse their previous actions, but it is something in their favor.
by UncleLeo on Aug 8, 2007 1:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A mighty coincidence
This is MB's argument for racism:
It's a mighty coincidence that every black guy who's been there the last three years — you can go back to Jermaine Dye, Terrence Long, Mike Singleton — is gone.
Uh, hello? If you're looking that far back, almost every guy of any color is gone. A's have a high turnover rate.
Terrence Long joined the team in 2000. Jermaine Dye joined the team in 2001. Chris Singleton played for the A's for one year only, in 2003.
Quick, name two guys who were on the team in 2001 who are still here. You can't, because there's only one (Eric Chavez). Even as recently as 2003, there are only five guys who were on the team then who are still here (Chavez, Crosby, Ellis, Harden, Duchscherer).
The real truth behind Milton's mighty coincidence is that every guy who isn't Eric Chavez leaves the team within a few years. Should we therefore draw the conclusion that Billy Beane is biased against every ballplayer who isn't Eric Chavez. (Well, now that you mention it....)
by iglew on Aug 8, 2007 1:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Plus, the question of
whether Bradley and Sheffield are victims of racism is hardly a controlled study, since both of them also keep acting like jerks. If I don't keep a black jerk and then I don't keep another black jerk, can you conclude that I'm racist? Or that I just don't like jerks?
<deals a round of Black Jerk, hits on 14>
by Nico on Aug 8, 2007 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
C'mon 14...
by Nico on Aug 8, 2007 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think of it
more like if you get rid of the black jerks and keep the white jerks, then what's that? Some say that Kent's a jerk, but Bradley ended up leaving the Dodgers. Beane might actually be a white jerk. Then again Kent is the one who left the Giants... and they kept the black jerk...
(deals a hand of white jerk)...
I think a better study is to try to reach an understanding of how baseball players of all races see race relations in society and in baseball.
by jmfox on Aug 8, 2007 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it depends on which jerk is the
better player?
by rfloh on Aug 8, 2007 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, if Kotsay is the jerk
he may be, and if Crosby has the free pass he appears to have, it could look a little weird. But I don't really know what Kotsay is like in the clubhouse, and the A's don't exactly have the next great SS around, so...Hard to know.
All we do know, for sure, is how often Bradley was unable to answer the bell, and that fact just doesn't favor Milty.
by Nico on Aug 8, 2007 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Out of his 3 examples...
...Dye was here for 3.5 years, and was hurt too much to play up to his potential during that time. Long showed promise, but ended up running himself out of town. Singleton simply wasn't very good during his A's tenure. From a purely baseball perspective, why should any of those three still be here?
Bradley can blame it on whatever he wants, if that's what it takes to get himself through the night, but I believe that if he had not been hurt so much he'd still be here and he'd be playing regularly.
by UncleLeo on Aug 8, 2007 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
that those who are gone didn't play up to standards. But... it's not a matter that they left, but how they left. There seems to be a different amount of "gruntledness," though maybe I'm wrong. Singleton, Long, and Dye (to my surprise) were disgruntled when they left. The white players don't seem to be as disgruntled, and I wonder why that is.
Also, yes, he was hurt and maybe if he wasn't he'd be here, but Chavy, Crosby, and Harden are every bit as injury proned as Bradley (wild claim, I know). I know Kielty was hurt and BB got rid of him, but if I were Bradley I might feel like I was being treated differently.
by jmfox on Aug 8, 2007 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But, how did they leave?
Dye was paid something like $11,000,000 per year, and didn't really produce enough to justfy that. Hindsight, and not necessaily his fault, but it was what it was. They did want to keep him, albeit at a reduced salary, and he refused. Many players of all ethnicities refuse similar proposals.
Long played alot for awhile and had some good stretches. Near the end he talked about a lack of "respect"... meaning "respect" in the form of playing time. Problem was, he was playing like crap for awhile and shouldn't have been getting all the "respect" he thought he was entitled to. He's still of a reasonable playing age... where is he?
Singleton just didn't have a good year with the team.
I'm with you on Harden and Crosby (though Crosby's current injury is not his fault in any way), and almost there on Chavez. I don't believe Kielty was released because of injuries, but more because he wasn't as versatile as they thought he would be in the sense that he could hit decently from only one side of the plate.
by UncleLeo on Aug 8, 2007 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am pretty sure that is
a fallacy to say that "There are no black people on the team, the owner must hate black people". It is pretty close to saying "I have never been in a car accident, so accidents must not happen".
In any case, what a simple world this would be if we could all just blame every one of our problems on one thing only. If it were only that simple...
First post, thanks for AN and thanks to BBG for the great article drawing me out from lurking.
by Roloc on Aug 8, 2007 1:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Or perhaps the more apt analogy
would be, "There are no purple elephants in the room; therefore my purple elephant repellant is working."
Eeeww. Imagine if Stomper and Barney got together and produced...
by Nico on Aug 8, 2007 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lisa, I'd like to buy that rock
by BlameChannel53 on Aug 8, 2007 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey...thanks!
Come post more often! It's not addicting!
Heh heh heh.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
She's right
<snorts entire thread>
by Nico on Aug 8, 2007 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No offense bbg, but your point could have been
made stronger if the story immediately under it written by you didn't have say, "(And yes, you look every bit as good as they say.)" in reference to Saltalamachia. Just a thought...
by marco magic on Aug 8, 2007 1:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
say=said typo.
by marco magic on Aug 8, 2007 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, now I'm super confused...
I wrote that because Salty (despite the length of his name), looks amazing at the plate. I have no idea of his hotness quotient if that's what you are referring to.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Salty's swing is indeed
shorter than his name. His posterier, I don't recall--but it's probably neither long nor short.
by Nico on Aug 8, 2007 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, if I write, that Jennifer Lopez is attractive
then my next comment, that her acting is somewhere below the Rosies, Perez, and O'Donnell, my latter statment must not be true?
by theblackpearl on Aug 8, 2007 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You seriously took that as her saying he is hot??
My God, the guy is an elite prospect and was just traded for one of the best power hitters in all of baseball...and you immediately think she must be commenting about his looks rather than his playing ability?
Sounds to me like it is 100% an issue with the way you read what she writes rather than what she actually writes. I read it as a baseball comment as her 9 million other diariues have made me realize she knows what she is talking about in terms of baseball. That one is on you, not her.
by OaktownPower on Aug 8, 2007 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well you only completely overreacted
All things being equal that is exactly how I interpreted what she said, specifically because it was in parenthesis. If it had been written as an appositive I would have been more likely to think she meant in in a baseball sense, but when you put things in parenthesis it seems more like an aside that probably refers to looks. I also in no way said anything against her or her writing. I simply pointed out that there was an unfortunate juxtaposition of what appeared to be conflicting messages. But hey think whatever you want considering you formed a snap judgment about me based on what I said for me making what you inferred to be a snap judgment. The irony is amazing...
by marco magic on Aug 8, 2007 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"An aside that probably refers to looks"??
I could write a long post about why you are off base and how there was nothing "snap" about my judgment, but you said it all yourself with "probably" refers to looks. Says it all.
by OaktownPower on Aug 8, 2007 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
After reading these posts, most of AN is racist
There, I said it. You're mad aren't you? Well, I put my points up earlier in the thread (with minimal replies).
Don't see my point of view, fine.
Just don't go stating that MB is an idiot or a jerk because race "obviously" doesn't have anything to do with it. How do you know? We're all speculating here. Race is always a factor when you're a minority. Why can't White people understand that? I see all the little subtle cues to your racism from this thread alone, even if you don't. I'm not a jerk. But, obviously if I were to be playin with some of you, you'd think I was one for just sayin what's up.
And, once and for all, it is not a crime to call someone racist or point out prejudice. No one is immune.
by eshock on Aug 8, 2007 3:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Milton is a jerk
because he talked shit about an organization when he could have taken the high road...because there are definite possiblities he was physical with his wife.....because he threw a water bottle at a fan.....because he acted like an idiot walking off the field in LA.....because he threw a bag of balls on the field.....because he didnt run out pop ups multiple times in Cleveland....because he undid his batting gloves before leaving home plate...because he evaded the police when being pulled over for speeding....because he tossed his helmet and bat towards an unmpire.
I think Milton is a jerk because I think he is a jerk and a bad guy....Not because of his race. I think a lot of white people are jerks too.
by OaktownPower on Aug 8, 2007 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope, not a crime...
I put about 100 disclaimers in all of my statements which pretty clearly said, "Hey, I'm white...I will never understand or appreciate the unique struggles that plague players like Milton Bradley."
And I don't. But at the same time, I don't think Milton is an a) idiot or a b) jerk for being a different race than I am...I think he's a)an idiot for weakening a REALLY strong example of Beane's micromanaging and egotistic tendencies by bringing race into it, and I think he's b)a jerk for his out-of-line comments about an organization who cut him and his famous temper a whole lot of slack during his playing time.
eshock...I like what you have to say, even if we are coming from two different places. And while there certainly are things that people just can't understand having not been there, I think almost everyone on this thread is trying to understand a different point of view.
by baseballgirl on Aug 8, 2007 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well....
"Playing the race card" is sort of an incendiary phrase to begin with, and I could have predicted this thread without reading it.
Everyone can parse Bradley's words but placed in context his perception might be valid. The incident in the hallway stands out for me more than when Long joined the club - it was disrespectful and that's where Bradley is coming from. But it's easier to accuse him of 'playing the race card.' Okay.
by coffee roaster on Aug 8, 2007 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By saying "race is always a factor"...
...aren't you also saying that literally everything that happens between people of differing races or ethnicities is racist or racially motivated? That's a pretty strong assertion.
by UncleLeo on Aug 8, 2007 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do "minorities"
get a stranglehold on racism. I grew up in a fairly crappy part of town where believe you me I was the minority. I have had my fair share of people judging me (or in some cases beating me) because of my skin color.
Now I am not saying I know what it is like to be your race or culture, but race issues plague us all. They are a global issue and one I believe we will be fighting for ever. The important thing is we all continue to fight and try to be better people about all of this.
I don't agree with MB because his arguments are based on fallacies as mentioned above.
I think what has been said about MB repeatedly is that this doesn't help the "cause" at all, and given his past record when he leaves teams it just looks like he is being petty.
If disagreeing with a factless - fallacy based argument makes me a racist then yeah I guess you're right. If Beane was truly a racist I doubt MB would have been on the team in the first place... there I said it.
by Roloc on Aug 8, 2007 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fighting race issues forever?
I've said it before, I'll say it again: aliens need to hurry up and start blowing us up, 'cuz we will come together like our name was Voltron.
by Joey C. on Aug 10, 2007 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I couldn't disagree more.
As someone whose living is partly based on the study of the psychology of race relations, I sit here and cannot stress more strongly how much I disagree with the basic foundations of your criticisms. Sure, you try to downplay your comments by prefacing them with self-deprecating insights into your "myopic" lens on race relations and your acknowledgment that racism exists on an institutional level. But then you proceed to put your self in Bradley's, Sheffield's, and other Black ball-players' shoes and state authoritatively how they should be feeling or what they should be saying. Yes, people can use the "race card" (as you put it) to deflect criticism and responsibility from themselves, as this is a defense mechanism that we all use in various facets of life (e.g., perhaps a feminist my attribute negative outcomes in the workplace to sexism in order to avoid seeing her lack of ability as a reflection of, well, her lack of ability). However, it is also true that well-intentioned White folks, such as many who are reading this right now, can and do display behavioral biases against Blacks (and women, Muslims, etc.) without consciously knowing or intending to do harm. Simply because you have a Black friend or admire a Black ball player does not make you immune. That is, Whites can and do discriminate without explicitly or consciously adhering to racist ideology. I'm talking about behaviors like preferred physical distances from Blacks in public places, helping Blacks in need (relative to Whites in need), and even automatic cognitive associations between Blacks and negative words and ideas (relative to associations between Whites and negative words and ideas), all of which are only weakly related to explicit racial attitudes ("I'm not racist") or political conservatism.
In short, it is impossible to evaluate from an armchair whether there really is bias in the A's organization in general, or with regard to Bradley, in particular. If the A's are like most White people, there probably is, although they probably don't intend it or see it as such. The key is whether observers, such as Bradley and ourselves, wish to give the A's the benefit of the doubt. Giving the benefit of the doubt is largely a function of past experiences, and Bradley's experiences with the A's and as a Black man obviously differ from yours or mine.
by Slurve on Aug 8, 2007 4:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I haven't seen anyone...
...including Slurve, suggest or even hint that there might be a bias by Bradley against white people. If the key, as you say, is whether all of us, including Bradley, are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the A's, then doesn't that beg the question as to whether all of us are willing to give Bradley the same benefit? Why isn't his bias in question? Is he incapable of such a bias?
Bradley made this racial. The A's have had players of color for decades. They trade/lose all kinds of players (can you say Mulder, Hudson, Zito, Giambi)
Bradley became more trouble than he was worth. It's that simple!
by doubleplayer on Aug 8, 2007 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with this argument
is that there's no exit from it. I'm biased, and I know it. I try not to be. It irritates me when I recognize it, because I find racism conceptually sickening. But it's there. The only thing I can do is to make a good faith effort not to pay attention to it.
As far as I know, no one has yet discovered a "cure" for subconscious bias, other than the obviously limited and incomplete one of trying not to be biased. (There are potential recompenses, like affirmative action, but that's not really what I'm discussing here.) I find it basically impossible to condemn someone for having this when I'm guilty of the same and don't have any suggestions for how to reverse it.
If the only "racist" argument against Beane is that he suffers from the same preconscious predilections as everyone, well, I don't really know what to do with that.
by PaulThomas on Aug 8, 2007 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably the most honest post in this thread.
Inconveniently so, for some, most likely. Overt racism still exists, and there are also racial distinctions that aren't necessarily racist, but they still exist also. We all have preconceived notions and even biases, even if subconsciously. I think part of it is that human beings naturally suspect "different", however irrational that may be. Having said that, not everything that transpires between people of differing races is racist or even racially motivated.
I agree with the person that said calling racism is still valid (paraphrasing), but only when it's real. "Playing the race card" is also an unfortunate tactic employed by some to intimidate others into submission. It worked for a long time, but is less effective now because too many people see it for what it is and are calling the bluff.
by UncleLeo on Aug 8, 2007 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone is a little bit Racist
Blacks, Whites, Indians, Asian, Everyone!
It is how you act on those feelings and thoughts that make you a better person than others.
By Milton going out, assuming and accusing Billy of trading him because he was racially motivated, is Milton showing his racism against white men. It was childish and not a respectful thing to do.
He never needed to bring that up. He never had to annouce to the media that Billy is a racist, cause honestly, all that does for me is make me think that Milton is the racist in this situation.
There, I said it! It is officially off my chest.
Can I please beg the AN community that this be the last Milton Bradley Diary? Please?
by BobbyCrosbysGirl on Aug 8, 2007 6:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I love how Bradley is catching the heat...
you guys are looking from the outside and WILL NOT EVER FOR A SECOND thnk that, maybe Bradley is on to SOMETHING... maybe not completely accurate, but he may be on to something.
No we won't because it's so much easier to continue to being an A's fan and continue to support "in beane we trust."
Beane has some problems and being able to talk to a man like a man may be one of them.
I don't want anymore MB posts, in part because I'm tired of it but in most part I think AN has a lot of sour grapes. I know the guy personally and he is a very cool person. I don't know Beane so I will REFUSE to pass judgement.
On the positive side, I think Beane is tanking it this year so he can bring back Rickey for the last month and retire him as an A. I miss Rickey and sure I'll miss AN
done with it...Peace
I should have seen this coming because there were too many games even in the great season of '06 when AN went all negative for the littlest things... well now we see the true colors of AN and it's ugly people, ugly.
by Erik being Erik on Aug 8, 2007 8:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hogwash--it's not "sour grapes,"
it's that Milton Bradley, nice a guy as he may be, has not built up credibility over the years. When someone who has credibility makes the assertions he has made, I'll listen with more interest than I do when the assertions are made by the king of sour grapes himself, Milton "It's never me and it's always them--oh, and I can't play today" Bradley.
by Nico on Aug 8, 2007 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't like Beane either
To be honest I think he is an ass. I believe MB is on to something, Beane is a jerk. I think the entire point of this post is pretty much that MB has a great case to make that Beane is a jerk and he messed it all up by calling him a racist based on a fallacy. As mentioned above saying "Beane hasn't resigned 5 black guys; Beane is a racist" is totally a fallacy given that the A's hardly resign anyone. Not even to mention he threw poor Stew in there who still has to play under the jerk and will no doubt catch heat for it, and MB's point about stew was just retarded seeing as how he bats lead off and starts like 95% of the games since MB left. But never mind that... RACISM RARRRR.
I totally agree he is on to something, moneyball upsets people who put in work for a team, and isn't a great system for repaying guys for hard work. The A's always let people go that they should keep and I imagine that hurts a lot of folks including the fans. I like MB much like BBG said she did, I would go as far as to say I have a bit of a man-crush on the guy. But he just totally lost a chance to make a relevant argument, and that saddens me because I would have loved to have seen Beane put down for once, instead MB almost gave him the easy way out.
by Roloc on Aug 8, 2007 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was the entire point of the diary
by baseballgirl on Aug 9, 2007 2:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I'm not the only person up late
reading this thread ;)
by Rickeyfan on Aug 9, 2007 3:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
there was no easy way out...
by Erik being Erik on Aug 9, 2007 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The easy way out
Was to let Beane off the hook by giving him something to get super defensive about that just screams MB is not being realistic.
Had MB told the story about Beane talking down to him, about how he was ready to come back but Beane has trainers hold him down etc etc those are all factual statements of things that happened and can probably be verified by other folks.
Instead HE focused his argument (not us.. he did it) on the "race card" in that interview, and I think that is the shame, because if he did have a case he just ruined it by arguing something that essentially can never be proven unless Beane comes out and says "I hate black people" and it is to easily dismissed as MB doing what he does when he leaves teams.
by Roloc on Aug 9, 2007 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Erik being Erik...you are one of my fav ANers
...and of ALL people, you KNOW how I felt about Milton Bradley, perceived issues and all. You know, and probably better than anyone else.
I could NOT agree with you more about him having something to say. He had a valid, valid point, and maybe was the first real person ever to come out with real and important cricism of Billy Beane. We agree on that.
Where we differ is that you argue that I'm cherry-picking a small comment and losing the rest. I'm arguing that MB lost almost his entire audience with that one comment about race. Why, why, why (and even if it was true...and it very well could have been...seriously), couldn't he just make the argument without sounding like a angry child? Roloc above says it better than I could.
I am NOT defending Beane for not being a racist. Hell, I'm not defending Beane at all. But Milton feel RIGHT into the trap that was set for him, and instead of having people take a good hard look at the A's clubhouse, they write him off as just another Sheffield, a disgrunted player who really did let Beane off the hook.
by baseballgirl on Aug 9, 2007 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's 'fell', not 'feel'.
by baseballgirl on Aug 9, 2007 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rickey is a coach with the Mets
And has been credited by Jose Reyes for the dramatic change in Reyes' approach at the plate. Rickey has also stated that he doesn't want a token appearance, rather that he wants the chance to compete for a spot.
by rfloh on Aug 9, 2007 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
there was a nice article in the tribune...
by Erik being Erik on Aug 9, 2007 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ME TOO
by baseballgirl on Aug 9, 2007 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love to see Rickey with the A's
but the comments I've seen from Rickey are that he wants to come to the A's to play and compete for spot, not just for a couple token appearances. At least from what I've read from Rickey, Beane is only willing to sign him to come back for a token appearance.
by rfloh on Aug 9, 2007 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know I'd like to see?
two things
A) A poll of current and past baseball players, broken down into generic Caucasian / Latino / Black / Asian to see what each group thinks about race in baseball and whether it's an issue to them. From there, it could extend to the 'why is that' and 'what do you think baseball as an institution or players themselves should do about it?'
B) An anonymous roundtable of black baseball (former and/or current) players discussing race relations in baseball. I think we can accept that many current players would be hesitant to publicly participate for fear of how it could affect their careers. I think anonymity would grant them the freedom to be completely honest with how they feel. Maybe they would be able to point out that certain clubs feel unwelcome. I believe that only through honest discussion can improvements be made, but nothing about the current state of race allows for honest discussion.
I find the intersection of race and sports to be quite fascinating. Much has been made that there aren't more blacks in baseball because for the past couple decades, football and basketball has been seen to offer more of a fast track to success.
*Is that based on sheer athletic ability? If that's the case, then why aren't there more Latinos gravitating towards football and basketball?
*What is it about baseball that draws Latinos to the sport? Is it mostly historical favoritism towards the sport? Is it that the most athletic Latinos have physical builds that are more conducive to success in baseball vs. football/basketball?
*Does anyone find it curious that Chavy not-withstanding, there's not a huge pool of domestically raised Latinos playing baseball?
*It makes me wonder, if financial gain is the ultimate goal, why aren't more Latinos focusing on basketball or football where the path is shorter? I can see that football might be less interesting as the most 'American' sport, but what about basketball? Does the NBA recruit less heavily in Latin America?
by Rickeyfan on Aug 9, 2007 3:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
We know this:
Attitudes towards gays and females (see Pam Postema and female reporters being served fresh rat) do not bode well for presuming racial equity and tolerance in baseball.
by Nico on Aug 9, 2007 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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