<rubs eyes> What Just Happened?! What Sport Is This?!
Well, after tonight’s game started out with, "Hi, I'm Travis Buck, and I’ll be your superstar for the evening", it continued with "Hi, I’m Joe Blanton, and I’m going to suck the life out of a six run lead and try to get the loss in the process. Oh, look, a grand slam!"
I countered with, "Hi, I’m baseballgirl and my new thread mojo is better than your crappy pitching", and Jack Cust was all, "Yeah those are some nasty cupcakes, but watch me clear the bases with a double and clear them again with a grand slam and wind up with seven RBI’s".
As much as baseball is a game that puts individuals together into a cohesive team, there are certainly times when players stand out; Frank Thomas last year, A-rod all the time, and Travis Buck tonight. The first few innings played like the Travis Buck highlight reel, as Travis robbed homeruns, smashed the ball all over the ballpark, and basically just put the energy into the game that this team has been sorely lacking for most of the season.
This game felt different somewhat, as if the extra energy somehow infused the rest of the players. For example, please see every other time the A's have a runner on third with less than two outs, much less the bases loaded; yet the A's scored a sac fly in the first, and many more after that, with Cust unloading the bases with a double, and unloading them once again after Joe Blanton blew a six-run lead.
The A's basically hit for the cycle in the first couple of innings; the homerun provided by Donnie Murphy, who I'm ready to say--small sample size and all--should be the replacement for Bobby Crosby. He did it both in the field and at the plate tonight. Of course; I may be biased...I think Jack Cust would be a good replacement for Crosby.
Buck and Cust put up the monster offensive numbers tonight; Buck was 4 for 5 with a walk, scored 3, and drove in 3. Not a bad leadoff performance. Cust was 2 for 5 with seven RBI’s. Not a bad cleanup performance. And that was enough to overcome Blanton’s horrible start. Of course the rest of the team got into the action as well; everyone had a hit or two except for Kotsay and Swisher (who did walk three times).
The pitching after Blanton did effectively stop the bleeding, after Blanton’s nine earned runs scored. Lugo gave up one earned run of his own, but Brown was perfect through two, and Street his one.
It was one of those games: Elation! Joy! Hapiness! Despair. Anger. Annoyance. Hope! Joy! Rapture! I hope everybody’s okay. We have to do it again tomorrow.
And apropos of nothing, but in the category for 'Who In Their Right Mind Would Volunteer For This Job?!', Joel Zumaya apparently threw for the first time to live batters today. Wait; let me clarify. The Tigers actually had batters stand in the cage while Zumaya pitched to them. And the quote was, "The velocity was there, but the control was not". Are you kidding?! If the A's did this, half of them would be dead!
It’s been fun...now go enjoy your Friday night!
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Lugo in the 6th
He only gave up one run. Did that count as a shut-down inning?
After Blanton gave up nine?
Yes.
by baseballgirl on Aug 10, 2007 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions
In fact ...
I was happy that Lugo just went after the hitters after giving up the lead-off triple.
maybe the day off yesterday helped
They certainly had to be tired after 20 games in 20 days.
I didn't see Lugo pitch.
But was it really that bad? One run is usually the death knell for this team, or so has been our custom. This game did feel different. It's like the A's weren't sweating Detroit's comeback. It's almost like they knew they were going to win and weren't to concerned with any individual performance. Collectively they seemed to know that someone would step up when it mattered. And the amazing thing is that someone did. I present to you your 2007 Athletics....about a month to late.
Get off Lugo's back!
He was fine today. He's been good since his recall. Given time I think he'll be a valuable part of our bullpen.
I hope so too.
I thought he was doing well...all things considered. One run from a relief pitcher isn't a bad deal. Everyone was riding him pretty hard in the thread, so I was wondering if he looked bad out there.
He didn't really just allow one run
He allowed two runners left by Blanton to score by giving up a double to the first batter he faced.
In the words of a British Naval officer...
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody pitchers today."
No...he really said "ships"
but in honor of Oldham...
Didn't Gaudin blow a 6 run lead
about a week ago in Seattle? I believe Gaudin had what appeared to be a certain win as did Blanton tonight, and both didn't get through the 5th, my recollection is we lost the Gaudin game.
by china bob on Aug 10, 2007 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions
The mighty Jack Cust
connects four in the sixth

woo!
by SwisherThresher on Aug 10, 2007 7:39 PM PDT reply actions
SLAM!
Custy's slam happened just after I left work. Gave me a double pick-me-up before I came home to my whining little ADHD 6-year old. Needless to say, the pick-me-up has worn off now. Oh well, there's always beer.
If I breed... (which I won't!)
I want to make sure to have a reincarnated Zen Buddhist monk as my kid.
Patient kids rock!
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Aug 11, 2007 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Why does your subject line
comfort me?
dude the cust hype is over
he hasn't been good since like june. he's batting .265 now.
by Mulderfan on Aug 11, 2007 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions
umm....
if you want to compute Cust's batting average, you should count the walks as singles, because they pretty much are.
Oh wait... there's a stat for that already... it's called OBP. You should look into it; it's pretty cool. Apparently according to some book that I guess a whole bunch of people on this site have read, the A's front office take that stat pretty seriously.
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Aug 11, 2007 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Did you know
that Cust's batting average when he makes contact with the pitch is over .400?
He's Williamsesque!
no one computes that
if they did the batting average leaders would be batting .400!
And yes u can only really use moneyball as a valid point when the team is actually winning. when the a's are not, its just a sorry excuse for a low budget team.
by Mulderfan on Aug 11, 2007 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Poppy is not impressed
I'm with you BBG
the part about Murphy replacing Crosby, there was a little argument on this site a few days ago, about Murphy not having as good an arm or the range of Crosby therefore the A's are not as good with him in there.
All I know is his arm looks plenty strong to me, and although his range may not be as good as Crosby it sure is nice seeing somebody playing SS who can hit the ball once in awhile. He is only hitting .250 for the year but you have to take into account this is his 3rd time up this year, and he started slow, no doubt because of nerves etc. He has hit more line drives in two weeks than Crosby hit the first 4 months.
I risk the danger of getting excited about some guy who might be a flash in the pan, but he certainly looks good at the plate, is willing to hit to all fields, I think he has a chance to be a replacement for Crosby until somebody better comes along.
by china bob on Aug 10, 2007 7:43 PM PDT reply actions
Re: Murphy's D
Let's not forget that he hasn't been a full-time shortstop at any point in the minors or majors until this season. The article on the A's main page compared his arm to Furcal's and that's pretty lofty praise.
by Helloooo 1st on Aug 10, 2007 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Everything I hear
credits Murphy with one of the best arms in baseball. He doesn't have Crosby's range or ability to pull down 10-foot liners to left center, but overall he's almost comparable defensively. As for offense, well... kind of speaks for itself.
That was one hell of a throw he made when
going to the hole between SS and 3rd tonight. Crosby would not have made that play period.
by ohtobe21likehuston on Aug 10, 2007 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions
agreed.
I like Murphy and I hope he keeps it up, for his sake and for ours.
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Aug 11, 2007 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Weird baseball stat that proves W/L records
have little value. Ruddy Logo is now 3-0 with an 8.84 ERA. Congratulations to him on his "perfect" season.
Nice win tonight. I miss tony posting his postgame message ;-(
by ohtobe21likehuston on Aug 10, 2007 8:14 PM PDT reply actions
"Lugo"
by ohtobe21likehuston on Aug 10, 2007 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions
check out beyondtheboxscore
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/ - they have a running series "This Week's Proof That Assigning Wins and Losses to a Pitcher is a Silly Practice that Must Stop" that you should read.
by MobiusKlein on Aug 10, 2007 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I get mad at the seamheads...
...that want to get rid of the old stats.
I'm cool with all the new stats too, but keep the old ones... just take them with a grain of salt.
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Aug 11, 2007 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
you're opening up a can of worms there, SPWC
Do you really want someone at Elias to have to start computing contemporary values for BMCH (bushiest muttonchop contributing to a horsecollar), GQEVP (gonfalon quintile earned by voluminous pantaloons), and BSAHC (bases due to swiftness akin to a horseless carriage)?
Magic in a .500 bottle
Cust! Cust! Cust! Hey, Buck is the real deal, Murphy may just depose Crosby, pitching is (a little tired, but) awesome, Suzuki is growing into his position and Barton cometh.
by Bosnian on Aug 10, 2007 8:18 PM PDT reply actions
lol at the title
That's what I imagine KenKo was thinking in the 6th. He sounded so incredulous when he was describing the 6th-8th runs that scored in that inning.
In Cust we trust
Buck has to be in the conversation for ROY
But if Cust were eligible he would be leader so far
ROY rules are stupid when 100 million pitchers are eligible but career minor leagues like Cust are not
Earlier I predicted 7 ribbies in a game for Cust. I am happy
I'd love to read an AN Cust interview
Cust for cash has to be the fleecing of the year
I think Andrew Brown is going to be a steal too
I'd love to see Cust get to 100 RBIs. He's got 59.
Did Buck chip a tooth?
I think Crosby is expendable..
he's hurt too much and he doesn't put up the numbers...
Crosby looks more ben grieve-ish with each Murphy hit and successful throw from SS..
by Erik being Erik on Aug 10, 2007 9:20 PM PDT reply actions
or would that make Beane look bad..
that he was wrong about Tejada's replacement so he'd hesitate to do so...
or is murphy just not as good as Crosby?
Future diary topic?
by Erik being Erik on Aug 10, 2007 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions
If Beane can balance one Crosby
and one Cust, I think Beane gets a pass.
Chalk it up to karma, or the cycle of the contract.
by MobiusKlein on Aug 10, 2007 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Buck, Cust, and Andrew Brown!
Yay awesome additions!
Bullpen could be stacked next year: Lugo, Embree, Duke, Street, Brown, Casilla.
hot diggity!
by SwisherSweet on Aug 10, 2007 9:26 PM PDT reply actions
That Bradley trade
doesn't look so bad right now. I am trying to figure out what went wrong with Brown that two teams have had him at little cost and they both let him go. I was trying to think tonight while watching him the last time the A's had a true fireball pitcher. I couldn't think of one, not in this era at least. BB usually gets crafty pitchers. Hudson threw heat but his slider was his out pitch. At this point in time he looks very impressive. Let's see, we got Cust from San Diego for a box of golf balls, and got Brown for a guy that was to be released a week later from San Diego who is our most impressive reliever right now. Oh, by the way, Bradley is hurt again, SD thinks only for a few days but we know better. Guess their trainer is no better than ours.
by china bob on Aug 10, 2007 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, we know why San Diego did--
they were trading strength for weakness. Towers didn't care that he was probably getting the worse end of the deal, because he had way more than enough relievers and not nearly enough outfielders.
Cleveland was apparently worried about his walk rate, but he's really lowered that a lot this season.
haha
somehow i think josh towers thought, and still thinks he got the better part of that deal
by Mulderfan on Aug 11, 2007 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions
according to your link
Bradley can return any day now, according to fox sports. but now that i would believe fox sports anyway.
try espn.com or mlb.com. They at least know what they are talking about.
by Mulderfan on Aug 11, 2007 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions
So true
I remember when Fox Sports said Al Davis had WMDs. Can't trust anything they report.
I took your advice
I checked espn.com and mlb.com to backstop what I read on foxsports.com, and they all agreed: Milton Bradley didn't play today. I think we can safely conclude 1 of 3 things.
- Keeping Bradley on the bench is all part of San Diego's super-secret plan to lull the rest of the NL West into a false sense of security.
- Geoff Blum is a better baseball player than Milton Bradley
- Milton Bradley is hurt. Again.
What do you think? I know you said Bradley wasn't hurt just this morning but I don't want to presume to put words in your mouth.
You might be afraid of typos.
what i think? u mean what the Padres think.
MLB.com said bradley will return to lineup monday. he's not hurt(DL hurt) but has some nagging injuries. Rather than play through these injuries he's getting some rest. And they didn't want to put him on the DL because he's returning tomorrow, not to mention they could use him as a pinch hitter if they wanted to. but they chose to be kind and gave him the rest he deserves.
It's that simple.
by Mulderfan on Aug 12, 2007 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions
So he's injured then
OK. It's amazing what a little research can lead you to.
But this idea that the Padres are being "kind" to Bradley is just silly. They aren't playing him because his hamstring is hurting and if they play him before his leg gets better they could lose him for a long time. They're playing it safe with Bradley, because a healthy Bradley (as we've seen first hand) can help his team win ballgames.
finally
now your talking some sense. that was the most intelligent thing you've said all day.
by Mulderfan on Aug 12, 2007 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions
And another thing
Josh Towers is a pitcher for the Toronto Blue Jays. Kevin Towers is the GM for the San Diego Padres.
Two words of advice: Fact Check.
omg its a typo
see thats the problem with u. You don't have any facts, so when I say something that you cant respond to u make fun of a typo.
If u had any sense you would actually come up with an argument,
by Mulderfan on Aug 11, 2007 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Touchy touchy
Grover hardly needs any encouragement to come up with an argument. But in this case he's not even arguing with you. He's just adding a helpful correction, and I for one appreciate having the names clarified, whether the original mistake was a "typo" or not.
My advice: Stop taking everything so personally. Just accept the correction and move on.
A typo?
I've seen people do things like spell "there" when they meant "their". I've seen people transpose letters in a word. I've even seen folks who have completely forgotten to include words in their sentences.
But I have never once known anyone who has ever made a typo by typing J-O-S-H when they're trying to spell K-E-V-I-N.
Know what I think? I don't think it was a typo at all. I think you got the names confused. And instead of admitting to the brain cramp and moving on, you choose to come after me as if I'm making ludicrous statements.
Now you may think that I'm picking on you and trying to make you look like a fool. You'd be half right, I am picking on you. You've annoyed me and the only way to get me off your back is to stop posting all together or to stop posting incorrect statements like this. Choose whichever course you like, it doesn't matter to me. but understand, I'm not the one making you look like a fool. You are doing that to yourself. I'm just pointing at you and letting everyone know what you're doing.
answer the question
you must have some kind of vendetta aganist the world, because no one could come with something as long as you did over something as trivial as a typo, brain fart, whatever you want to call it doesn't matter. you still didn't come up with a good point because you cant, and you know you can't so you make the slightest little thing a big deal.
by Mulderfan on Aug 12, 2007 7:30 AM PDT up reply actions
I did answer the question
Appearently you didn't pay attention to my last post because I transitioned from the "typo" incident to answering your question. As for not coming up with a good point, here's one:
You can't admit when you're wrong.
Which leads me to a second relavent point:
I'm better than you at this.
I'm done playing with you on this thread, you're starting to bore me.
your still making no sense
and if I bore stop responding and go get a life.
by Mulderfan on Aug 12, 2007 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions
umm...
I though Josh Towers changed to Kevin Towers (and vice versa) with aid of a convenient phone booth!
...Or was that Josh Byrnes and Eric Byrnes?
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Aug 11, 2007 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes, I can understand
why a team would worry about his walk ratio, when he pitches he is all arm, and seems to be out of control but so far he keeps getting the ball over the plate. He reminds me so much of a pitcher the A's had many years ago, Eric Plunk,who had the same wild motion, the only problem is Plunk didn't get many guys out.
It's still early but from what I have seen so far, Brown is a keeper. He seems like a perfect set up guy, someone who can bridge the gap to the closer.
by china bob on Aug 11, 2007 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions
bradley's not hurt
and he's batting .360
by Mulderfan on Aug 11, 2007 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions
if he is not hurt then
why hasn't he played in the last 7 games? SD can't find a place for a guy hitting .360.? He pulled his muscle while running out a ball a week ago, so technically he is not hurt, just can't play, where have I heard that before?
by china bob on Aug 11, 2007 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions
its the NL
in the NL when players cant start they pinch hit for the pitcher. That is Bradley's role until he 100% again. Very similar to eric chavez except that he is actually getting the rest he needs. it's the beauty of the NL if you ask me.
by Mulderfan on Aug 11, 2007 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions
He pinch hit one time in 7 games
Last night in an extra inning game he didn't pinch hit at all so what is your point, he is getting his rest? Didn't he have enough rest while playing for the A's?
The beauty of the NL is that a guy can rest by pinch hitting? Don't they allow pinch hitting in the AL?
God knows the Padres have a terrible hitting club and can't score runs, if Bradley could play he would be playing, I am not sure why your were offended by Grover's and my comments that Bradley was hurt again and not playing. It was a simple and true statement, no offense intended.
by china bob on Aug 11, 2007 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
If Bradley can't even pitch hit,
then he's worse than hurt... He's taking up a 25 man roster spot that could be filled with someone who could actually play.
I don't know why they didn't put him on the DL.
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Aug 11, 2007 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
the manager says he is day to day
and therefore wouldn't put him on the DL. Does that sound familiar? They screwed up by having him pinch hit a day or two ago when he walked. Now if they DL him he will be gone another two weeks, they don't know Milton like we know Milton.
by china bob on Aug 11, 2007 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
of course u kno milton
u saw him play everyday. oh wait u said he never played every day b.c. he was injured. now your just contradicting yourself.
by Mulderfan on Aug 11, 2007 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I say Trade:
Street and Crosby if Beane can get anything of value for either of them. (A centerfielder!!!!)
by SwisherSweet on Aug 10, 2007 9:30 PM PDT reply actions
Whoa, nelly
I've been as pro-Andy Brown on this site as anybody (I remember when Bradley apologists were dismissing him as a "bag of baseballs") but I'm not exactly ready to anoint him Closer of the Future just yet.
If I'm trading BOTH of those guys, it had better be for a center fielder (or ideally a shortstop) who's already enjoyed success at the major league level. I'd trade them for Curtis Granderson, but I don't think Detroit would be amenable. (Then again, you never know. I hear they're planning to move Carlos Guillen to first base.)
Now, if it's just Crosby, I'd give him away for damn near anything at this point. I'm still wondering if a deal might be swung with Minnesota, but if so it'll have to wait until the offseason.
Crosby in Minnesota?
They don't put up with black holes there. O wait they still play Punto so they do.
Crosby better bring it in the field then.
by chavyizdamn3 on Aug 10, 2007 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Dude, this is a PLAYOFF TEAM
that started a 2B, 3B and SS with a combined total of like 5 homers last season. (And a DH with zero.)
I mean, Crosby's bad. Sure. But at least I understand why he has a major league job. I cannot say the same about Jason Bartlett or Nick Punto.
ur crazy
street is too valuable to the team and u wouldn't get anything for crosby. no one wants an shortstop that's always hurt and bats .240.
by Mulderfan on Aug 11, 2007 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Baseballgirl...
Props on the write up there. "Hi, I’m Joe Blanton, and I’m going to suck the life out of a six run lead and try to get the loss in the process. Oh, look, a grand slam!" ...Laugh out loud funny. Nicely done.
(One of) the best lines of the night
Bob Geren, when asked about the lead-up to Jack Cust's Grand Slam, as quoted in the AP Recap:
We preach selective aggression all through the minors and that leads to walks. It works better when you get home runs too.
Sure I could make a comment about Geren's deadpan ability to deliver the line "it works better when you get home runs too" and still keep a straight face. I could even comment on how just about anyone who follows the organization, even those who do so solely to refute what they believe Moneyball is, knows that walks are important to the A's success.
I could do all of that, but I won't. For now I think we need to start an AN band in the tradition of Poison, Motley Crue, or even pre-Hagar Van Halen. And I think we need to call ourselves Selective Agression.
Who's with me?
good idea, but ...
... "Selective Aggression" sounds more to me like an mid-80s SoCal punk band -- TSOL, Suicidal Tendencies, etc.
Are you...
saying Jack Grisham couldn't hit a curve ball?
by raulhukilledu on Aug 11, 2007 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
I think we should just start...
...a Monkeyball cover band.
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Aug 11, 2007 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Not sure ...
Not sure if I'm confusing correlation for causation here, but ...
Is it a coincidence that as soon as we replaced Chavez and Crosby with Murphy and Scutaro, our offense began to improve dramatically? Not just tonight, but the last week and a half or so we've been throwing up some big numbers. If only our pitching could hold up ...
I know it's a small sample size and all, and I know Scutaro is not really all that good, but considering how badly C and C were hitting all year, even Scutaro's modest production is a huge upgrade. And Murphy's been phenomenal. He's only 24, under control for years for nothing ... why shouldn't he start next year?
I just have the feeling that Beane will not give up on C and C. They are his guys. He still thinks they will have to play better than they have. I guess he thinks they couldn't possibly play worse, but that is hardly a reason to assume they will get better.
I understand sticking with Chavvy despite alarmingly dropping production, but Crosby? There is absolutely no sensical reason to stick with him next year. None.
Crosby yes, Chavvy no.
Sure its much less than you'd like (and had expected, till events proved otherwise) but you still take Chavvy over Scoot at the plate as well as in the field.
by green star oakland on Aug 10, 2007 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions
An Illusion
Scutaro isn't an upgrade on Chavez at all.
Their AVG is nearly identical (240 vs 241). Scoot's OBP is slightly better (317 vs 306), but Chavvy's SLG is much higher (446 vs 350).
Neither is very good, of course.
Love the write up BBG!
Fun game tonight. And of course by fun, I mean, terrifyingly fun. But I guess all's well that ends with a W.
why crosby is still here
Its called a 4 year deal with 2 left. The only way crosby is dealt is if someone takes him and we get a salary player in the same range. I do feel murphy is playing solid and should push crosby for a job. Next years team is pretty well set except for a firstbaseman if they dont put swisher there.
I wonder if it's reality, but my perception
is that the A's record when Buck is in the lineup has been dramatically better than their record when he is out. Anyone have the actual numbers?
I don't have the numbers
but I know I feel a lot better with him leading off.
He is just a really good baseball player and has such a great approach to hitting.
by china bob on Aug 11, 2007 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Rough calculation
It appears that the A's are 33-37 when Buck starts, which does include the win over the Angels when he knocked in the GWRBI in a pinch hit effort (AN Day). That would translate to 23-23 when he isn't in the lineup. Now, it's 14-19 in April/May and 19-18 in June/July/August. Honestly, this correlates with my gut feeling that we struggle more with Buck in the lineup. So lately, yes, we've been better. At least batting leadoff. I wish we could bat him second.
I second that
I always enjoy the games more when young guys are in the lineup, guys who may or may not have an upside. Even though Suzuki is not hitting very well, almost as bad as Kendall was before he went back to the NL, I see it as a guy learning on the job, maybe he has an upside maybe not, but it is fun to watch, same with Murphy at SS. With Scutaro at 3rd I am indifferent, he has no upside, same with Piazza when he is the DH, or Stewart in left field or Kotsay in center. I just wish we had a young 3rd baseman in the system.
by china bob on Aug 11, 2007 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I enjoy it more too.
Murphy, is one of the best reasons to keep watching...because he may turn out to be the solution to the Crosby problem. It would be nice to solve that within our own club...instead of spending money to get a free agent or trade. As for Scut...he has my gratitude for always being there when he's needed and for staying healthy . But I agree with you...he's only a great utility infielder. He's not starter caliber..unless the starter he replaces is named Crosby.
I calculated this a while back
and was rather surprised to discover the opposite.
That said, the team's record in games Milton Bradley played wasn't very good either. I think it's just luck. Buck is a terrific hitter.
Probably a better barometer
would be runs scored, since wins and losses are much more dependent on other factors. Even if runs scored was figured into the equation Buck might not make much of a difference but for those of us who like to watch him play it just feels better and at 4 games under .500 we need something to make us feel better.
by china bob on Aug 11, 2007 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions

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